The Bruce Bowen Boondoggle [Archive]

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 03:57 PM

I originally posted the following in another thread, but I realized that I was really just going off on a tangent and straying too far off topic. So, I started this thread because it's something I felt the need to put out there in it's own context.

The Spurs and, in particular, Gregg Popovich have been trying to find a replacement for Bruce Bowen for a few seasons now. This has occurred because Pop would rather plug someone into the system in place instead of adjusting the system to suit the talent he has. The strategy is failing. Ime Udoka and Keith Bogans, obviously, did not work and it's time to move on. If it was so easy to replace Bowen the Spurs would've done it by now. The only two players that could come close to filling that role are Ron Artest and Shane Battier and the Spurs aren't getting those guys. Elite wing defenders do not just magically exist and Pop is not going to be able to turn just anybody into one.
If the Spurs are going to get back to being a top 5 defensive team, they will have play like they did against the Mavs in the 1st round last season. Quick rotations, double teams on penetrations and forcing good scorers into taking bad shots. The problem with that is it is a grind on the players. It wears down the vets and tests the limits of the young guys. The Spurs played their best defense of 2010 in the 1st round of the playoffs and it wore them down to the point that they could not keep up with a much quicker Suns team in the semis.
The solution to this, unfortunately, will be for the younger guys to become the leaders on defense. They will have to supply the energy and carry the vets for a large percentage of the season. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and McDyess are still good defenders, but they are going to need big time help. Especially when the big three will have to bear a large portion of the offensive burden.
Blair, Hill and Jefferson are going to have to step up and take their defense to the next level if the Spurs have any shot at all. Splitter should help a lot, but I do expect him to struggle a bit. Hopefully, one of the young perimeter players is going to be a defensive diamond in the rough, but I'm not counting on it.
If I were Pop, I would strap RJ to a chair with his eyelids propped open, ala the brainwashing scene in A Clockwork Orange, and force him to watch Bruce Bowen's defensive highlight films for 72 hours straight until he believed he was a great defender.

Amuseddaysleeper

08-01-2010, 04:09 PM

Who knows, we could see some changes this coming season.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 04:14 PM

Who knows, we could see some changes this coming season.

So far, it doesn't seem like they are desperately trying to find a Bowen plug in. I'm taking that as a good sign. Of course the options aren't really there either. I'm still not opposed to signing a vet SF, but not to try and force somebody to be the defensive wing in that specific role.

ceperez

08-01-2010, 04:20 PM

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 04:24 PM

Somehow in the midst of my interweb burnout (which I'm trying to soldier through here Kellen Winslow-style) I failed to make a thread to acknowledge one of the key dates in Spurs history.

2001-07-30

Spurs sign free agent Bruce Bowen (from Heat) to a 2-year, $1.5M contract (second year is player option)

Friday was the 9-year anniversary of Bruce Bowen becoming a Spur. Time flies.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 04:34 PM

i don't recall the celtics having a stellar perimeter defender but they did quite well in the finals.

if you got a lot of quick and long guys in the back court and a solid front line you can be reasonably disruptive in defense. celtics have shown that you can do a lot with much less.

Ray Allen played the best defense I've ever seen him play in the playoffs last season. Tony Allen is a good defender, and at 6'4", does pretty well with taller guys. They have, arguably, the best defensive PG in the league and Rasheed really stepped up in the playoffs too.
I think the Spurs are better equipped to be a much improved defensive team this season, but Pop has his work cut out getting this team to commit to executing on a consistent level.

On a side note: Why do you feel the need to bash Tony Parker at every opportunity? Tony is not a bad defender. He is quick enough to stay in front of anybody and really only struggles with big PGs like Deron Williams and Andre Miller.

lotr1trekkie

08-01-2010, 04:34 PM

There are no more Bruce Bowen's. He was unique and fit like a glove with a team that had interior defense and allowed Bruce to do his thing. He was a lockdown defender that allowed the rest of the team to excel. Think Darelle Rivis! Once in a lifetime.

lowdown

08-01-2010, 04:42 PM

Like said before, Celtics had Tony Allen as their defense specialist - in fact, that's all he can do. The Spurs defense was impressive in the first round but their poor showing in the 2nd round showed a lack of discipline dealing with the pick-n-roll. I've always believed that Pop is a genius in scheming against a playoff opponent yet somehow he's been coaching for shit for most of these last few years. I would fear that Pop would go out and acquire a quality defense-oriented wing only to sit him and play an older, slower vet that can shoot 3s, instead.:(

DesignatedT

08-01-2010, 04:49 PM

The whole "pop trying to find a bruce bowen replacement" is being blown out of proportion IMO. The Spurs wouldn't have made the trade for Jefferson if they were worried about replacing Bowen with a player like himself. Of course Pop looks for a perimeter defender on the wing. Whether it was Ime or Keith last year but that's because every team needs a solid wing defender, not because hes sitting back in his office thinking "who's the next bruce bowen". He knew Jefferson didn't posses the same skills defensively as Bowen when trading for him. Obviously he wants RJ to improve on that end though.

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 04:52 PM

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 04:54 PM

we just got rid of bruce bowen 2.0 aka malik hariston.... real talk. This teams d is still good only problem we have is leaving 3 point shooters wide fucking open we need to fix that shit

DesignatedT

08-01-2010, 04:59 PM

Except that he actually said RJ would be taking on the oppositions best scorer night-in-and-night-out. He wanted RJ to be their stopper, however misguided that was...

Who else would? He knows Manu can't expend that much energy on defense and that is the only other feasible option, plus RJ is younger so of course RJ will be guarding the best defender and I think him saying that was him just trying to motivate RJ to get better defensively.

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 05:10 PM

Who else would? He knows Manu can't expend that much energy on defense and that is the only other feasible option, plus RJ is younger so of course RJ will be guarding the best defender and I think him saying that was him just trying to motivate RJ to get better defensively.

It's one thing to say, "Who else would?" and another to suggest with less offensive responsibility and a little weight loss he could actually do it.

I don't think Pop is that far gone, though. He did attempt to make Bogans their stopper and would've likely preferred to play him alongside RJ so he could focus more on scoring from the 3 and Bogans taking on the defensive assignments -- two very failed notions.

benefactor

08-01-2010, 05:15 PM

The inconsistent team defense all year long was the undoing of the Spurs as much as anything last season. I have serious doubts the ghosts of Spurs D past can be resurrected for many reasons...and that's why I don't think this team is a contender anymore. I pray they prove me wrong.

Interrohater

08-01-2010, 05:15 PM

DesignatedT

08-01-2010, 05:17 PM

It's one thing to say, "Who else would?" and another to suggest with less offensive responsibility and a little weight loss he could actually do it.

I don't think Pop is that far gone, though. He did attempt to make Bogans their stopper and would've likely preferred to play him alongside RJ so he could focus more on scoring from the 3 and Bogans taking on the defensive assignments -- two very failed notions.

What do you suggest he do? It's easy to say how much of a failure it is now but I understand completely what he was trying to do on both those issues. The fact that he didn't abandoned the Bogans experiment much earlier after everyone saw that it wasn't happening is a different story.

TD 21

08-01-2010, 05:26 PM

Based on how this team is constructed, even if they re-sign Bogans, sign Hayes, or sign anyone else of that ilk, by default Jefferson is going to be guarding quite a few top opposition wings. Because even if they sign one of them, they'll probably be the tenth man in what will probably primarily be a nine man rotation.

Whether people want to call it the "stopper role" or not, Jefferson will be taking on that role. Obviously, depending on matchup, Hill will also be taking on that role. Anderson and Ginobili will inevitably spend some time guarding those types as well.

Every legit contender and even most pseudo contenders has at least one above average wing defender to play this role. If the Spurs want to get back to being the former, then at some point they're more than likely going to need to address this role.

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 05:29 PM

real talk:lol

Obstructed_View

08-01-2010, 05:31 PM

If the Spurs want to find a Bowen replacement, starting with small stocky guys with slow feet and very little basketball skill is not the way to do it. Nor, I might add, is signing every guy that hits a two three pointers in a row in Las Vegas.

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 05:33 PM

So this is really a Hairston thread, right?

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 05:34 PM

What do you suggest he do? It's easy to say how much of a failure it is now but I understand completely what he was trying to do on both those issues. The fact that he didn't abandoned the Bogans experiment much earlier after everyone saw that it wasn't happening is a different story.

His Omnipotence, Blackjack -- this Guy -- isn't second-guessing. I was fully aware of the type of player RJ was and wasn't one of the people enthused with the trade.

I'm not hating on Pop -- the only real problem I have with his handling of the situation was choosing to be stubborn with Bogans instead of play the player that clearly outplayed him (Hairston) -- and I knew and know exactly what he was trying to do.

What people seem to completely miss whenever Hairston's involved with one of my posts is that I've never suggested he was the difference in making the team last year a title contender or not. He would've have been a better option the Bogans, there's not a doubt in my mind, but Bogans was literally one of the worst players in the league last year that had a significant role on a team with title aspirations (some with even lower aspirations).

I was just never one of the people that felt RJ could make this team a legit title contender without a legit perimeter defender playing alongside of him, and given that they don't grow on trees or are readily available, I came to the conclusion the Spurs just weren't going to be winning a championship without a trade -- had they been able to get a solid 2-way player like Salmons or the Thomas-Salmons package I brought up way back when, they'd probably have given themselves a much better shot. But you need another team to oblige you when it comes to trades.

Bottom line, the Spurs can't rely on RJ to be a player that closes games and someone they're absolutely reliant on to win. But for that to be the case they're going to have to have some of their young guys go all Stephen Jackson on the league, a la '03, or they're going to have to make a trade. That's the only real chance they have, IMO.

DespЏrado

08-01-2010, 05:35 PM

So this is really a Hairston thread, right?

:lol

Bruno

08-01-2010, 05:37 PM

Malik Hairston!

G-Dawgg

08-01-2010, 05:42 PM

RJ's defense is severely under rated here on these forums.. It's true last year his defense was lacking but before last year, he was known in the league as an excellent defender when he put in some effort. Hopefully we see a more motivated Richard Jefferson this year, both offensively and defensively.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 05:45 PM

So this is really a Hairston thread, right?

Not as far as I am concerned. With Pop willing to try just about anything to fill that role the last three seasons (I'm counting the year he decided that Bruce Bowen couldn't be Bruce Bowen anymore), I've got to believe that if Hairston was anywhere close to fitting the bill we would have seen enough of him to unequivocally say he was the heir apparent and he would, most likely, still be here.

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 05:47 PM

man shut the hell up malik had the best d on this team since bruce bowen and yall know it quit that noise real talk

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 05:48 PM

Not as far as I am concerned.I wasn't really talking about you -- just that any thread about perimeter D becomes a de facto Hairston lament with some corollary Gary Neal hate thrown in for good measure.

I do agree that the "stopper as starter" era is ovah.

4>0rings

08-01-2010, 05:48 PM

Bring back malikkkkkkkkk h had the best d on this team bring back malik :king:king:king:kingHis philly steak place came back... that's a start.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 05:52 PM

I wasn't really talking about you -- just that any thread about perimeter D becomes a de facto Hairston lament with some corollary Gary Neal hate thrown in for good measure.

Well, that is at least somewhat appropriate. I was afraid ceperez was going to turn it into a trade Tony thread.

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 05:55 PM

man shut the hell up malik had the best d on this team since bruce bowen and yall know it quit that noise real talkHe wasn't all that great and he chose to leave.

Real talk.

Do you have anything to say besides whining about his departure?

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 06:01 PM

He wasn't all that great and he chose to leave.

Real talk.

Do you have anything to say besides whining about his departure?
there is no way rj should be in the starting lineup nahmeen, debate that

DesignatedT

08-01-2010, 06:02 PM

His Omnipotence, Blackjack -- this Guy -- isn't second-guessing. I was fully aware of the type of player RJ was and wasn't one of the people enthused with the trade.

I'm not hating on Pop -- the only real problem I have with his handling of the situation was choosing to be stubborn with Bogans instead of play the player that clearly outplayed him (Hairston) -- and I knew and know exactly what he was trying to do.

What people seem to completely miss whenever Hairston's involved with one of my posts is that I've never suggested he was the difference in making the team last year a title contender or not. He would've have been a better option the Bogans, there's not a doubt in my mind, but Bogans was literally one of the worst players in the league last year that had a significant role on a team with title aspirations (some with even lower aspirations).

I was just never one of the people that felt RJ could make this team a legit title contender without a legit perimeter defender playing alongside of him, and given that they don't grow on trees or are readily available, I came to the conclusion the Spurs just weren't going to be winning a championship without a trade -- had they been able to get a solid 2-way player like Salmons or the Thomas-Salmons package I brought up way back when, they'd probably have given themselves a much better shot. But you need another team to oblige you when it comes to trades.

Bottom line, the Spurs can't rely on RJ to be a player that closes games and someone they're absolutely reliant on to win. But for that to be the case they're going to have to have some of their young guys go all Stephen Jackson on the league, a la '03, or they're going to have to make a trade. That's the only real chance they have, IMO.

I agree Hairston>Bogans. I know exactly what pop was trying to do and don't have a problem with it but it's pretty clear he went with Bogans way to long. Same with Mason. Malik should have gotten to play over 1 of these guys.

024

08-01-2010, 06:03 PM

hairston sure had potential on defense. a shame really.

Nathan89

08-01-2010, 06:03 PM

I still say that our best chance of "replacing" Bruce Bowen is already in our lineup. There are four other positions on the floor, with the PG position arguably the most important. Is it too much of a stretch to think that our defensive stalwart can be the PG stopper instead of the SF stopper? I think George Hill's defensive ceiling is still decently high, why couldn't he become our defensive perimeter stopper? Of course, I mean that only if he sticks to guarding PG's. Putting him on SF's and PF's is ridiculous.

The pg stopper in g.hill is not a replacement of bruce because pg stoppers are not as valuable as sf stoppers. Most of the elite teams have a elite sg or sf on the team, that needs to be disrupted by a defensive player on the spurs. G.hill's also has to play half of his minutes at the sg position because he is on the court with parker. That transforms him from a pg stopper to a average sg defender at best. That is why I would want to trade g.hill if the spurs resign parker.

On the bright side for the 15 minutes per game he is on the court without parker he can be a pg stopper against the opposing teams backup pg.:)

On the not so bright side bruce use to play 32 minutes per game on the best sg/sf/dirk in the league.:(

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 06:07 PM

there is no way rj should be in the starting lineup nahmeen, debate thatSure he should. He's quite a good basketball player.

Much better than Hairston.

Obstructed_View

08-01-2010, 06:10 PM

I wasn't really talking about you -- just that any thread about perimeter D becomes a de facto Hairston lament with some corollary Gary Neal hate thrown in for good measure.

I do agree that the "stopper as starter" era is ovah.

:lol Gary Neal hate.

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 06:14 PM

yea rj sure is a good basketball player i epically like how he was left wide open the whole suns series and didn't hit shit... smh malik would of shut down dudley rj left him open all day, nigga malik didnt even play that much this season and yet he has better highlights then jefferson .....

Obstructed_View

08-01-2010, 06:17 PM

I agree Hairston>Bogans. I know exactly what pop was trying to do and don't have a problem with it but it's pretty clear he went with Bogans way to long. Same with Mason. Malik should have gotten to play over 1 of these guys.

Gotta give him credit for still thinking about defense, but I've no idea what the Spurs ever saw in Bogans. The Celtics turned Ray Allen into a pretty damn good defender, so getting a vet to focus is clearly possible if he has the talent to do it. I'd be more than happy if the Spurs decided to try to build a "Bowen replacement" if they did it properly, but the only guy on the roster with the length to do it at this point is Richard Jefferson. They seem to be too busy looking for a "Finley replacement", which is a bit worrisome.

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 06:18 PM

:lol Gary Neal hate.:lol indeed.

yea rj sure is a good basketball player i epically like how he was left wide open the whole suns series and didn't hit shit... smh malik would of shut down dudley rj left him open all day, nigga malik didnt even play that much this season and yet he has better highlights then jefferson .....Jefferson is a much better basketball player than Hairston.

Jefferson is still in the NBA.

Hairston is not.

You are white.

Real talk.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 06:22 PM

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 06:26 PM

:lol indeed.

Jefferson is a much better basketball player than Hairston.

Jefferson is still in the NBA.

Hairston is not.

You are white.

Real talk.

shut the hell up dick dumper get off rjs nuts nvm stay on em since u like dick, aint no white in me but there is white on yo lips from rj

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 06:29 PM

malik didnt even play that much this season and yet he has better highlights then jefferson .....

That's just bullshit. Come on, man. You know that's not true. Go to youtube and search Spurs top plays of 2010. Half of them are RJ dunks and he is either running the break or making an assist on the other half. RJ had the best highlights of the year second to Manu.

ChumpDumper

08-01-2010, 06:29 PM

shut the hell up dick dumper get off rjs nuts nvm stay on em since u like dick, aint no white in me but there is white on yo lips from rjNah, it's simply very clear that Jefferson is a better basketball player than Malik Hairston.

Real talk.

SpursTillTheEnd

08-01-2010, 06:34 PM

aight lets take it back to that houston game when we were getting our asses whooped who came in and brought us back and played great? malik and when we caught back up who came in and we lost? rj. how are yall really gonna sit there and say rj is better then malik, shit i put it on anything if malik would of played more then rj we would of been better

Nathan89

08-01-2010, 06:36 PM

lurker23

08-01-2010, 06:36 PM

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Every single player on the Spurs played like garbage in that Suns series. Top to bottom. Blaming Jefferson for that is just absurd. Malik Hairston gets as much undeserved and undue love as RJ gets hate. It's ridiculous. How about a little perspective and balance here people?

I think you're going to extremes when you compare STTE Hairston rhetoric and the majority of people like myself and O_V who were simply pointing out the truth. Which was, Hairston should have been given the opportunity to play and prove himself or fall on his face before Bogans was handed the role -- that's what always seems to get lost in the Hairston talk.

It's not about pretending he's something he's not, it's simply acknowledging Pop's decision to neglect the cold hard truth as to what was shown instead of siding with his predilection to go with the vet.

Jefferson's clearly a better player than Hairston. But there's no reason that should have precluded Hairston from playing last year, given what Malik did bring to the table was something that was a weakness for Jefferson (and Mason and even Bogans to an extent): defense.

There are less than 10-15 players that could come in and do a passable job at filling Bowen's defensive role. There are probably around 5 that could stay on the court because they have the ability to knock down the 3 at a respectable rate or that's defense is solid and their offense would be an upgrade over Bowen.

Top of my head: Webster, Ariza, Battier, Pietrus, Afflalo and someone's slippin' my mind at the moment.

But to suffice is to say, there's not many and they ain't all that easy to acquire . . .

lurker23

08-01-2010, 06:41 PM

They're are less than 10-15 players that could come in and do a passable job at filling Bowen's defensive role. They're are probably around 5 that could stay on the court because they have the ability to knock down the 3 at a respectable rate or that's defense is solid and their offense would be an upgrade over Bowen.

Top of my head: Webster, Ariza, Battier, Pietrus, Afflalo and someone's slippin' my mind at the moment.

But to suffice is to say, there's not many and they ain't all that easy to acquire . . .

Kobe? :stirpot:

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Kobe? :stirpot:

Sure, if he wants to come in and play the Bowen role, I guess we could give it a shot. :lol

G-Dawgg

08-01-2010, 06:45 PM

The pg stopper in g.hill is not a replacement of bruce because pg stoppers are not as valuable as sf stoppers. Most of the elite teams have a elite sg or sf on the team, that needs to be disrupted by a defensive player on the spurs. G.hill's also has to play half of his minutes at the sg position because he is on the court with parker. That transforms him from a pg stopper to a average sg defender at best. That is why I would want to trade g.hill if the spurs resign parker.

On the bright side for the 15 minutes per game he is on the court without parker he can be a pg stopper against the opposing teams backup pg.:)

On the not so bright side bruce use to play 32 minutes per game on the best sg/sf/dirk in the league.:(

I disagree. The league has become a point-guard dominant league. If you can slow down the point guard you can disrupt the whole offense. That's why we might be able to get away without having to have a stopper at the SF position as long as we have G.Hill shadowing opposing PG's and playmaking SG's...

Nathan89

08-01-2010, 06:45 PM

Kobe? :stirpot:

I do not think he was mentioning stars. Just role players. I think he was talking about artest though.

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 06:48 PM

I do not think he was mentioning stars. Just role players. I think he was talking about artest though.

Don't actually like him as a fit offensively, much the same as Laker fan found out, but I'd definitely take him over a lot of the options.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 06:55 PM

Do you think that rj's hate is undeserved and undue?

No. I'm saying that the extremity of it is certainly undeserved. RJ bears the brunt of the blame for the Spurs failures last season and absolutely no credit for their success at all. Zero.

I think you're going to extremes when you compare STTE Hairston rhetoric and the majority of people like myself and O_V who were simply pointing out the truth.

I think I am pointing out the extreme behavior on the board when it comes to both subjects. I am obviously not referring to anyone who can be somewhat rational expressing their opinions, but some people sound like mental cases. Obviously, Hairston should have received more of an opportunity, but for whatever reason, he did not. I watched almost every game last year and I can say that I did not see enough to make a case for Hairston being a big part of the organization going forward. I think he is an athletic and talented player who is still very raw.

Nathan89

08-01-2010, 07:05 PM

Wrong. The league has become a point-guard dominant league. If you can slow down the point guard you can disrupt the whole offense.

The only two teams to worry about are the lakers and heat. I am not worried about the Laker pg or the Heat pg. Since I am talking about two positions more teams will have their star at one of those positions. There is definitly more stars at the sg and sf combined than the pg position. Bruce could have guarded either sg or sf but g.hill can just guard the pg. That makes a sf stopper like bruce more valuable than a pg stopper like g.hill.

Facts:
-Hill plays roughly 15min per game and much of that is against a backup pg. I am not affraid of to many backup pgs.
-The other 15min per game he plays at sg and he is average at best at defending the good ones.

Trill Clinton

08-01-2010, 07:10 PM

Bowen's defensive presence won't be seen in the league for quite some time. It's rare to find a player who can stop or slow down the opposing teams best player physically and mentally.

Our best chance is like the OP said, team defense. Besides Ginoboli and maybe Hill we really don't have that perimeter defensive stopper(sorry rj). This seasons team should try to pattern their D after the 1999 team. They didn't have bowen but they good all around team defense. An aging sean elliott and jaren jackson were the wings and they had the twin towers protecting the paint. This year RJ:rolleyes and whomever is the other SF will have to take on the role of the ninja and JJ while Timmy and Tiago protect the paint.

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 07:35 PM

I think I am pointing out the extreme behavior on the board when it comes to both subjects. I am obviously not referring to anyone who can be somewhat rational expressing their opinions, but some people sound like mental cases.

To be fair, they have representation on message boards just like anywhere else -- mental cases, that is. Can't really get around it, nor would I really want to, tbh. They can be mighty entertaining at times.

Obviously, Hairston should have received more of an opportunity, but for whatever reason, he did not. I watched almost every game last year and I can say that I did not see enough to make a case for Hairston being a big part of the organization going forward. I think he is an athletic and talented player who is still very raw.

Is he raw, yeah, if we're speaking to his all-around play (mostly as a ballhandler). But if we're speaking to the notion of him as a role player and someone to come in and fill the gaps and be a presence even if not starring? I think if he'd been given Bogans' opportunity and proved capable of being the shooter he was as his career progressed at Oregon and the shooter he was with the Toros, it's not hard to see him being a part of the Spurs' supporting cast moving forward -- you had Manu saying he could see Hairston being the Spurs' small forward of the future.

He's obviously not at Bowen's level as a defender but there's no reason to think he couldn't do a respectable job defending on the wing and bring his ability to get to the hole with his athleticism on the other end to bring another aspect to the game -- that's it he proves capable of being the spot-up shooter he's shown at the college and D-League level.

I'm fine with Malik taking the money and opportunity to go overseas and refine his game while securing his finances. I honestly think it was best for him and the Spurs, seeing as the Spurs look like they intend on Anderson being a pretty big part of the team moving forward, Neal was brought in to help with their lack of 3-point shooting (which would suggest he's gotta play to help) and because they've already got 3 of their top 5 or 6 players playing at the 2/3 in Ginobili, Hill and Jefferson.

There's just not enough time for a guy like Malik to play, and given the fact that his D-League eligibility has been exhausted, Gee makes more sense under the circumstance -- they can move Gee back-and-forth as they deem necessary.

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 07:57 PM

To be fair, they have representation on message boards just like anywhere else -- mental cases, that is. Can't really get around it, nor would I really want to, tbh. They can be mighty entertaining at times.

For entertain value, I agree. Unfortunately, the sheer volume of extremist rhetoric too often gets muddled with the balanced, realistic approach and tends to derail the discussion. It becomes a fallback for people who want to participate by repeating the lie until it becomes a perceived truth. I guess the saving grace is that it seems cyclical. I see the board as a living, breathing organism. Kind of like a fungus.

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 08:02 PM

Fungus has it's uses, whether it's for cooking or recreational hallucinogenics. :tu

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 08:07 PM

Oh, and I'd just like to salute ohmwrecker for using the word "Boondoggle."

Dat der's a great word.:tu

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 08:09 PM

Speaking of derailing a thread:

mpjkDJMfLpA

pgardn

08-01-2010, 08:09 PM

I take another view. The play of the interior defense, mainly Duncan. Duncan was a great inside defender because of his ability to use his length while getting to spots because he rotated quickly. Duncan erased mistakes. Duncan has slowed down tremedously. He does not get to spots as quickly and his only advantage now is more immobile length. His anticipation is hampered by his inability to move as well. Maybe playing fewer minutes will help a bit, but its not a total solution.

Bowen was a great defender. But he was allowed to let people get by him and funnel them to the interior. This is a great advantage for any defender. They can gamble more. Bowen could actually play people from behind after getting beat and still be disruptive due to Duncan patrolling the middle. Imo, Bowen's decline matches Timmy slowing down. There was no doubt Bowen slowed down, but I think he could have still played with a young Duncan.

I think Duncan's ability to challenge the right shots and the right time in the Spurs rotation was very underrated during the championships. And when he had Robinson to help, it was a huge weapon. We could push all the way out on 3 point shooters and make them either drive (and get blocked) or recover and make the opponent shoot a disrupted jumper for two points. We no longer can push out on 3 point shooters and still protect the rim or make the other team shoot jumpers inside the arc that are challenged. This is why Phoenix killed us. They could do anything they wanted offensively. Our only chance was for them to shoot poorly. Eventually they found their range in every game.

So opponents now get clean looks at 3 points. Or if we do push out, they get layups or uncontested jumpers. Its a real problem. Splitter will add length and mobility so he will be a help. But he is not a shot blocker. Splitter is more likely to draw a charge than block a shot.

DPG21920

08-01-2010, 08:43 PM

Corey Brewer son.

silverblk mystix

08-01-2010, 08:58 PM

How does ANYONE know that Pop is doing this or doing that. It is a bit presumptuous to say that Pop is trying to do this or Pop is trying to find this type of player or Pop is looking for a Bowen replacement....ad nauseum...

Who decided that Pop is doing whatever?

Maybe WE as fans THINK that the spurs should have a 7 footer next to TD and that there should be a long, athletic SF....but Pop may not even be looking for one...

I have been scratching my head over the last 3 years when I see the moves Pop has made and have stopped trying.

Pop signed off on signing Matt Fuckin' Bonner,remember?

Why would you or anyone ASSUME that Pop is trying to run the same defense or that Pop is trying to recreate the championship era defense?

WE might hope for that but I am not sure anymore what Pop has in mind because it is pretty peculiar that the pieces that have been acquired seem to be short a few logical prototypes...at LEAST in OUR opinions.

Pop, on the other hand may be building an entirely different and unconventional team.

Obstructed_View

08-01-2010, 09:00 PM

Blackjack

08-01-2010, 09:05 PM

Corey Brewer son.

Thank you. :tu

ohmwrecker

08-01-2010, 09:07 PM

Corey Brewer son.

Yeah. Do it!

pgardn

08-01-2010, 09:29 PM

Duncan's ability as an interior defender was diminished the day he had a co-interior defender taken away from him. As soon as he had to try to defend the paint by himself, the Spurs' defense began to slip.

I would agree with also. The biggest factor is age imo.

Shutdown perimeter defenders usually have a middle that guards the rim or you dont notice them. I cant really think of a single guy considered a shutdown defender that did not have some fairly significant rim guarding.

Seventyniner

08-01-2010, 09:36 PM

I would agree with also. The biggest factor is age imo.

Shutdown perimeter defenders usually have a middle that guards the rim or you dont notice them. I cant really think of a single guy considered a shutdown defender that did not have some fairly significant rim guarding.

+1

It's all about team defense; good rotations can cover up (minor) individual mistakes, and one good defender in a bad system can do almost nothing. You don't have to have a shutdown perimeter defender to have a good team defense...heck, the Spurs were 8th in defensive efficiency last season! That's hardly bad.

pgardn

08-01-2010, 09:44 PM

+1

It's all about team defense; good rotations can cover up (minor) individual mistakes, and one good defender in a bad system can do almost nothing. You don't have to have a shutdown perimeter defender to have a good team defense...heck, the Spurs were 8th in defensive efficiency last season! That's hardly bad.

No 8th is not bad. But we pride ourselves on this. And the Phoenix series really exposed our weaknesses. We were just flat out bad. Their second string guard made Hill look like a fool. Way too many 2nd chance points. Sometimes its good to get trashed, it allows reality to hit you in the face.

Cane

08-01-2010, 10:02 PM

Bowen's elite defense, 3 point shooting from the corners (which thankfully he also advised Hill to specialize), championship experience, corporate knowledge, physicality, durability, and professionalism make up a tall if not impossible order to fill. RJ's got the durability and professionalism but those seem like the strengths he shares with Bowen right now; however like Tony Parker said - players have shown to improve in the 2nd year. RJ's a better and more athletic offensive talent than Bowen and those are traits that were weaknesses for the Spurs especially in this stage of the Big 3's legs.

However when it comes to the bigger question of whats been holding back the Spurs the most from a fifth championship --- I'm going to go with health being the main reason although far from the only arguable reason. It sucks to remember watching an injured Manu back in '08 while Kobe and Spike Lee were Doin' Work, Manu being gone completely in the playoffs in '09, and then this recent season where TP was injured throughout and Manu got his nose broken. Meanwhile Duncan seems to get worn out by having to carry the interior defense mostly due to lack of competent and athletic size to help and he's getting older...which Tiago should be a significant improvement in. I'm preaching to the choir but all of the Big 3 are pivotal for getting past the West especially against the Gasol Lakers unless the Spurs see players start to emerge like Rondo and to an extent what even Big Baby and Donkey did for the Celtics.

In the end though this season seems like the most likely where the Big 3 are all healthy, rested, and ready (Manu was pretty rusty and not as strong in the beginning of the last season due to injury; Tony Parker's got millions at stake since his contract's expiring). With the added experience we should also see a better RJ, Hill, and Blair and hopefully Tiago and Anderson will help address weaknesses. :flag:

SA210

08-01-2010, 10:20 PM

Bruce could still come give us one great year. But whatever...

:pop: :pctoss

SequSpur

08-01-2010, 11:12 PM

spurs should hire bruce as a coach...

ElNono

08-02-2010, 12:02 AM

Guys like Bruce set the tone. He took pride in raising to the challenge.
Our defensive decline is the sum of various factors, including Bowen's departure, an aging Duncan, some players that are simply not good/smart defenders, and some fresh faces that still have a lot to learn among other things.
I think if we keep on playing the same kind of defense we had in the last couple of seasons, we'll be playoff fodder, much like last season. Some things are inevitable, like Duncan aging or dumb defenders, but there's always hope the new guys can bring some good defense and surprise us all.