I know the conservatives will just dismiss it, but

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/business/economy/28bailout.html?_r=2&emc=eta1

If you're going to dismiss it then tell me which parts of the study you disagree with.

[Ignignokt]

what's wrong with the study is that it takes GDP growth as a good overall indicator of the economy.

The reason the GDP was higher because the formula constitutes G+I+C= GDP. The G as opposed to investments, and consumption is government. Ofcourse the printing of money and the pumping of credit would inflate the wealth of the Govt's money chest, but at the detriment to the dollar. Tjhe Fed is contributing to the devaluation of the dollar by printing more of it based on no wealth. You must have true wealth to back your currency, or else you become Zimbabwe with trillion dollar notes that buy you a pound of fish. And since this is not actual wealth but just printed currency and credit, it means nothing.

"It's like saying, I'm broke, but i'm financially set because I have a brand new Credit Card!!""

So in essence, more debt was created, more loans were distributed and the country did not save which now has both the citizens and the govt paying large interest for the coming generations.

This is lunacy, and anyone who thinks that this system is sane doesn't it do it by rational means, but because of their progressive ideology.

[angrydude]

what's wrong with the study is that it takes GDP growth as a good overall indicator of the economy.

The reason the GDP was higher because the formula constitutes G+I+C= GDP. The G as opposed to investments, and consumption is government. Ofcourse the printing of money and the pumping of credit would inflate the wealth of the Govt's money chest, but at the detriment to the dollar. Tjhe Fed is contributing to the devaluation of the dollar by printing more of it based on no wealth. You must have true wealth to back your currency, or else you become Zimbabwe with trillion dollar notes that buy you a pound of fish. And since this is not actual wealth but just printed currency and credit, it means nothing.

"It's like saying, I'm broke, but i'm financially set because I have a brand new Credit Card!!""

So in essence, more debt was created, more loans were distributed and the country did not save which now has both the citizens and the govt paying large interest for the coming generations.

This is lunacy, and anyone who thinks that this system is sane doesn't it do it by rational means, but because of their progressive ideology.


+1

The economy needs to move resources out of things it doesn't need more of (houses) and into things it does (exports). Too bad the economy is so distorted with tax incentives and low interest rates that that will never happen.

tWall Street would have gone to hell. But they deserved to. Oh well, lets not have/allow the free market to work then blame the free market.



The way we're carrying on the next depression is just going to be worse.

[Ignignokt]

Ateast in the last depression we had a powerful manufacturing base. We have none right now.

[DMX7]

Ateast in the last depression we had a powerful manufacturing base. We have none right now.

We don't have "none". We have a weak manufacturing base, and we'd have an even weaker one if Republicans had stopped the auto bailout.

[Winehole23]

For one thing, Mr. Blinder and Mr. Zandi find that the financial stabilization measures — the Troubled Asset Relief Program (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/credit_crisis/bailout_plan/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), as the bailout is known, along with the bank stress tests and the Fed’s actions — have had a relatively greater impact than the stimulus program. This stood out to me. If we did in fact avoid a debt-deflation event, then it stands to reason we avoided a severe contraction of the economy.

On the whole this wino is unsure it was prudent to have done so from the vantage of the long run. Short term, sure, we avoid the pain and the political setbacks.. But will we really be better off to face them later on? All we did was kick the can down the road and bake in a structural deficit.

[Winehole23]

In Fall of 2008 our political representatives seemed afraid that the global system of payment, being insolvent, might fail.

[Winehole23]

We avoided that possibility, but for that time only, and at a very great cost.

[boutons_deux]

"because of their progressive ideology."

fucktard, nearly all the deficit now and next 10 years is due to unpaid-for Repug wars, unpaid-for Repug taxcuts, and reduced tax incomes due to the Repug/conservative deregulated/unpoliced Banksters' Great Depression. Without those, the deficit is almost zero. The mind-blowing damage the Repugs did in 2001-2008 will continue for many years, while the Repugs blame it all on Magic Negro and try to maximize and extend Americans' gain for Repug political advantage.

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

As Krugman and few others predicted, and many more are now climbing on that bandwagon, the stimulus was too small. $1T or $2T more for a $13T economy would have probably just about wiped out the Depression. By getting people back to work, paying taxes, and staying in their homes, such a stimulus would have mostly paid for itself, unlike the Repug lie that tax cuts pay for themselves.

Now with the Repugs scare-mongering about deficits, we are looking at many years of deflation, 9%+ unemployment, and infrastructure/operating pain at all govt levels. Cutting federal spending now, as the Repug squeal about (but never list the federal spending to be cut), is exactly the wrong, de-stimulating tactic, not that Repugs ever worry about facts or being disastrously wrong on everything.

[Winehole23]

^^^http://www.heavytees.com/store/ProductImages/zoom/detail/HR02885_BrokenRecord.jpg

[Winehole23]

Ateast in the last depression we had a powerful manufacturing base. We have none right now.0d8FTPv955I

[Winehole23]

As Krugman and few others predicted, and many more are now climbing on that bandwagon, the stimulus was too small.It's way too late for a bandwagon, b_d. The contest is already over. The stimulus failed. You failed to make your point at he politically relevant time. It was being made then. It is gone now.

You just brought flowers to its grave.

http://www.agcsd.org/images/mmq%20title.jpg

[boutons_deux]

^^^http://www.heavytees.com/store/ProductImages/zoom/detail/HR02885_BrokenRecord.jpg


Why don't you post that broken record image when the Repugs/bubbas/conservatives keep repeating their lies?

GFY

[boutons_deux]

"The stimulus failed"

The point of the article was that the stimulus succeeded so well where even a hyper-conservative Hoover guy was amazed at its effects. Keynes was right, counter-cyclical govt spending is an important tool. Monetarist Friedman has been proven almost completely wrong.

It failed because the Repugs made a stimulus appropriately sized to the Depression politically impossible. As Repug thought-dictator/leader Limbaugh said, the Repugs hope and want MN to fail.

[Winehole23]

That's no excuse for being a broken record.

[Winehole23]

Maybe you started to emulate what you hate against your own honest will and even behind your very own back.

[Winehole23]

"The stimulus failed"

The point of the article was that the stimulus succeeded so well where even a hyper-conservative Hoover guy was amazed at its effects. Keynes was right, counter-cyclical govt spending is an important tool. Monetarist Friedman has been proven almost completely wrong.Yet no one seems to have noticed yet, except for a few disgruntled libs. Why is that?


It failed because the Repugs made a stimulus appropriately sized to the Depression politically impossible..Dude, your bullshit blows.

Obama either didn't aim high enough to start with, or else he aimed appropriately low. Stimulus 1.0 had to come in under $1T. Barring yet another catastrophic financial panic, it is doubtful the experiment will be repeated anytime soon. Obama and the US Congress half-assed the stimulus. According to even their supporters.

[boutons_deux]

That's no excuse for being a broken record.

no excuse.

Repeating lies works for Fox and Repugs.

Repeating truths is a legit response. now GFY

[Winehole23]

I keep my own schedule, thank you.

[Winehole23]

Sounds like you like being a broken record just fine.

[johnsmith]

LOL at boutons looking like an idiot and being so butt hurt when Winehole fucks with him.

[boutons_deux]

Boutons ain't never butt hurt, Boutons don't mess with his own or others butts. He leaves that to homophobic closted red-staters.

JS, GFY.

Winehole can't handle the truth, and rather believes the Repug lying broken record that the stimulus has failed.

[CosmicCowboy]

^^^http://www.heavytees.com/store/ProductImages/zoom/detail/HR02885_BrokenRecord.jpg

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

Crouton's would've called that a bitch slap if he'd posted that pic.:lmao:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL @ Manny's failed OP.

[MannyIsGod]

what's wrong with the study is that it takes GDP growth as a good overall indicator of the economy.



Um, what? The study doesn't say the economy is strong. It says we avoided a depression, which like a recession is based off of the GDP.



The reason the GDP was higher because the formula constitutes G+I+C= GDP. The G as opposed to investments, and consumption is government. Ofcourse the printing of money and the pumping of credit would inflate the wealth of the Govt's money chest, but at the detriment to the dollar. Tjhe Fed is contributing to the devaluation of the dollar by printing more of it based on no wealth. You must have true wealth to back your currency, or else you become Zimbabwe with trillion dollar notes that buy you a pound of fish. And since this is not actual wealth but just printed currency and credit, it means nothing.

"It's like saying, I'm broke, but i'm financially set because I have a brand new Credit Card!!""

So in essence, more debt was created, more loans were distributed and the country did not save which now has both the citizens and the govt paying large interest for the coming generations.

This is lunacy, and anyone who thinks that this system is sane doesn't it do it by rational means, but because of their progressive ideology.

So you think a depression would have been the better choice? Tell me, what happens with the national debt during a depression?

[MannyIsGod]

LOL @ Manny's failed OP.

My posting of an article talking about a study failed? Ok.

[TeyshaBlue]

My posting of an article talking about a study failed? Ok.

I know the conservatives will just dismiss it, but


Ummm...not exactly dismissed, amigo.:lol

[Wild Cobra]

Ateast in the last depression we had a powerful manufacturing base. We have none right now.
No kidding.

The only way we can have a strong recovery is to get some of our lost manufacturing to come back here again.

[Wild Cobra]

"because of their progressive ideology."

fucktard, nearly all the deficit now and next 10 years is due to unpaid-for Repug wars, unpaid-for Repug taxcuts, and reduced tax incomes due to the Repug/conservative deregulated/unpoliced Banksters' Great Depression. Without those, the deficit is almost zero. The mind-blowing damage the Repugs did in 2001-2008 will continue for many years, while the Repugs blame it all on Magic Negro and try to maximize and extend Americans' gain for Repug political advantage.

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

As Krugman and few others predicted, and many more are now climbing on that bandwagon, the stimulus was too small. $1T or $2T more for a $13T economy would have probably just about wiped out the Depression. By getting people back to work, paying taxes, and staying in their homes, such a stimulus would have mostly paid for itself, unlike the Repug lie that tax cuts pay for themselves.

Now with the Repugs scare-mongering about deficits, we are looking at many years of deflation, 9%+ unemployment, and infrastructure/operating pain at all govt levels. Cutting federal spending now, as the Repug squeal about (but never list the federal spending to be cut), is exactly the wrong, de-stimulating tactic, not that Repugs ever worry about facts or being disastrously wrong on everything.
Fool tool...

democrat boy toy...

That;s all you are.

Projections don't mean squat you idiot.

[MannyIsGod]

I know the conservatives will just dismiss it, but


Ummm...not exactly dismissed, amigo.:lol

Oh, I guess you missed the first post in this thread and the one that followed it.

[CosmicCowboy]

No kidding.

The only way we can have a strong recovery is to get some of our lost manufacturing to come back here again.

After they destroy the dollar we will be a "cheap" place to manufacture again.

[boutons_deux]

WC, 2009, 2010 in that graph are not projections, they are current or near-term.

Do you have any Fox or BecKKK or Heritage or Hoover charts to refute it? or does your over-weening self-esteem obviate the need to have facts?

[Marcus Bryant]

After they destroy the dollar we will be a "cheap" place to manufacture again.

Yet not cheap enough, as compared to China. And given the American aversion to manual labor despite protestations of how "hard" they work, it is doubtful that manufacturing will see any resurgence in the US.

Entitlement is not just a government program, but a state of mind for many Americans.

[101A]

...
Winehole ... believes the Repug ...

That's just crazy talk.

[Marcus Bryant]

Consider the source. That he is able to post while in a straitjacket is commendable, perhaps.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, 2009, 2010 in that graph are not projections, they are current or near-term.

Maybe...

Numbers are generally not reconciled until a few years later. I will grant you that they are close. Funny how the projections drop starting in 2011, when anyone with an above room temperature IQ knows that they will increase.

[Wild Cobra]

After they destroy the dollar we will be a "cheap" place to manufacture again.
Except most the buyers will have inflation that keeps it at a relatively expensive level still.

[RandomGuy]

what's wrong with the study is that it takes GDP growth as a good overall indicator of the economy.

The reason the GDP was higher because the formula constitutes G+I+C= GDP. The G as opposed to investments, and consumption is government. Ofcourse the printing of money and the pumping of credit would inflate the wealth of the Govt's money chest, but at the detriment to the dollar. Tjhe Fed is contributing to the devaluation of the dollar by printing more of it based on no wealth. You must have true wealth to back your currency, or else you become Zimbabwe with trillion dollar notes that buy you a pound of fish. And since this is not actual wealth but just printed currency and credit, it means nothing.

"It's like saying, I'm broke, but i'm financially set because I have a brand new Credit Card!!""

So in essence, more debt was created, more loans were distributed and the country did not save which now has both the citizens and the govt paying large interest for the coming generations.

This is lunacy, and anyone who thinks that this system is sane doesn't it do it by rational means, but because of their progressive ideology.

Like it or not, goverment spending *is* part of the economy.

Hard to get a good measure of the economy without factoring it in. Goverments, like any other entity such as companies or individuals, have the ability to spend more than they earn.

It might shock you to learn that current US goverment (local and state incl.) debt, clocks in at less than estimated private sector debt, by a wide margin.

Zimbabwe has a lot of really really stupid govermental policies, and is indeed the epitome of bad goverment by anyone's admission, save Mr. Mugabe's.

The fact that we have not had such an inflational death-spiral should be proof enough that we are not on such a track.

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf is the link to the actual paper, for what it is worth.

As for what is "sane" and what is not:

Fiat currency makes as much sense to me, if not a bit more, than basing currency on some yellow metal that we all have to agree has some value for it to be useful as a currency.

[angrydude]

Zimbabwe has a lot of really really stupid govermental policies, and is indeed the epitome of bad goverment by anyone's admission, save Mr. Mugabe's.

The fact that we have not had such an inflational death-spiral should be proof enough that we are not on such a track.


So when would bet he time to worry about inflation? CPI is another great example of a deeply flawed economic indicator today's economists assume into all their models. They confuse a ruler with length then wonder why reality doesn't conform with their ivory tower predictions.

[johnsmith]

Boutons ain't never butt hurt, Boutons don't mess with his own or others butts. He leaves that to homophobic closted red-staters.

JS, GFY.

Winehole can't handle the truth, and rather believes the Repug lying broken record that the stimulus has failed.

Lol at calling people homophobic while at the same time making a terribly unfunny gay joke.

[Ignignokt]

@ Mannyisgod, i don't disagree that the stimulus averted the consequences of the bubble bursts. Where we disagree is wether there will be consequences for putting it off for a later date.

I stated that all the govt did was pump credit into the economy, and didn't create any self sustainable wealth. And btw.. the Govt debt not the personal debt.. is tied to the currency.

So, in essence I think that all we did was distort the market more. The market was about to readjust and reallocate it's resources, but the govt instead created a fake or false assurance, a mini boom of economic activity within a recession. No sustainable markets were created, only money was spent and the debt accrued, and we still are going to pay those consequences later. Tell me how you think that's a sweet deal.

I don't think now's the time to cheerlead. The people of this country need to step out of this dream save, wake up to the fact that we can no longer sustain the way we do things, by Credit.

What's coming soon is the credit bubble, and that my friend will be devastating.

[boutons_deux]

"market was about to readjust and reallocate it's resources"

aka, bankruptcy of Citi, BoA, WF, AIG, etc

[Ignignokt]

Like it or not, goverment spending *is* part of the economy.

Hard to get a good measure of the economy without factoring it in. Goverments, like any other entity such as companies or individuals, have the ability to spend more than they earn.

Who says it's not. It's just not a healthy part of it. Govt entities run debts and survive, private buisiness don't. Govt doesn't create wealth well like the private sector.


It might shock you to learn that current US goverment (local and state incl.) debt, clocks in at less than estimated private sector debt, by a wide margin.


That's hilarious, consumers don't have the power to print money to pay off debt. :lol

And you don't think the federal govt's policy of loose credit has anything to do with it? You don't think the govt artificially pumping credit and giving banks power to tie consumers to debt is the problem? Not to say, that people aren't idiots themselves. So does this excuse the govt's mishandling of our currency?


Zimbabwe has a lot of really really stupid govermental policies, and is indeed the epitome of bad goverment by anyone's admission, save Mr. Mugabe's.

The fact that we have not had such an inflational death-spiral should be proof enough that we are not on such a track.

So you're going to wait till that happens to take measures?


http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf is the link to the actual paper, for what it is worth.

As for what is "sane" and what is not:

Fiat currency makes as much sense to me, if not a bit more, than basing currency on some yellow metal that we all have to agree has some value for it to be useful as a currency.

The voting public did not agree to that legal tender notes were good enought to indicate value, they were forced. We are forced to accept the dollar as legal tender, and have no power to control it's value since the fed acts independent to our political will. How is that a better choice.

Gold or "Hey heres a note that's basically and IOU!"?:nope

[Ignignokt]

"market was about to readjust and reallocate it's resources"

aka, bankruptcy of Citi, BoA, WF, AIG, etc

:toast