Gasol/Nowitzki comparison

[DAF86]

Gasol:

pts per FG attempt: 1.4
FG%: 536
assts: 3.4
rbds: 11.3
blks: 1.7
MPG: 37
2 NBA championships

Nowitzki:

pts per FG attempt: 1.3
FG%: 481
assts: 2.7
rbds: 7.7
blks: 1.0
MPG: 37.5
first round exit

Gasol has Nowitzki beat on everything, I think it's fair to say that Pau is a better player than Dirk. What do you think?

[lefty]

Pau Gasol

[21_Blessings]

If Dirk actually had a real back to the basket game it would be close. Alas.

Dirk plays like a 7foot shooting guard. Pau plays like a PF/C.

[DAF86]

Don't forget to vote people, we need to establish who the better player is, tbh.

[DAF86]

If Dirk actually had a real back to the basket game it would be close. Alas.

Dirk plays like a 7foot shooting guard. Pau plays like a PF/C.

Dirk stats look like the stats of a shooting guard, imho. less than 50% shooting, less than 8 rbds per game, barely a block per game, etc.

[sonic21]

Dirk is so much better than Gasol.

[DAF86]

Votes made after the 31st of August will not be taken into consideration.

[21_Blessings]

Gasol is so much better than Duncan.

[DAF86]

Dirk is so much better than Gasol.

Except in efficiency, assisting, rebounding, blocking and winning.

[8FOR!3]

Gasol's a better player now then Dirk. But Dirk's still got the ability to take over games and make himself pretty unstoppable on a given night. When he's on, he's on.

[redzero]

How many wins did Gasol get as the number one guy again?

[DAF86]

How many wins did Gasol get as the number one guy again?

A lot.

[redzero]

A lot.

But fewer than Dirk, right?

[Venti Quattro]

Dirk is better than Pau.

[F@#K You]

they both suck... why don't you select some better players assholes

[DAF86]

But fewer than Dirk, right?

Dirk has had a lot more time and help as the number one guy.

[sonic21]

Thats like comparing Kobe Bryant to Joe Johnson.

Senseless.

[F@#K You]

hey sonic...fuck you

[JamStone]

I would say based on last year, Pau had a better season and performed better in the playoffs. Pau can still be a vagina. But he's become a really great player. I think he's become a better overall player than Dirk. But, it does help that he has Kobe taking a lot of pressure off of him with defenses focusing their attention to Kobe before they do on Pau. Dirk remains the main focus of opposing defenses. Doesn't excuse Dirk not maintaining a higher level of rebounding. I think that is something he should be better at. As a go-to guy on a team, Dirk still edges Pau. But Pau is a more well rounded player.

Based on last year, I'd give it to Pau.



Votes made after the 31st of August will not be taken into consideration.

:lol

[redzero]

Dirk has had a lot more time and help as the number one guy.

Which, of course, is irrelevant when you claim that Gasol is the better winner.

Or maybe you're claiming that Gasol is a better winner because of the two championships. In that case, he had Kobe Bryant on his team, so that doesn't mean much.

[Chieflion]

Great fucking basketball discussion.

[DAF86]

Thats like comparing Kobe Bryant to Joe Johnson.

Senseless.

Not really

Kobe:

pts per FG attempt: 1.2
FG%: 456
assts: 5.0
rbds: 5.4
blks: 0.3
stls: 1.5
MPG: 38.8
5 NBA championships

Johnson:

pts per FG attempt: 1.1
FG%: 458
assts: 4.9
rbds: 4.7
blks: 0.1
stls: 1.1
MPG: 38
No NBA championships

[Venti Quattro]

Not really

Kobe:

pts per FG attempt: 1.2
FG%: 456
assts: 5.0
rbds: 5.4
blks: 0.3
stls: 1.5
MPG: 38.8
5 NBA championships

Johnson:

pts per FG attempt: 1.1
FG%: 458
assts: 4.9
rbds: 4.7
blks: 0.1
stls: 1.1
MPG: 38
No NBA championships

Kobe has got Johnson beat on every stat you said. No match.

[koriwhat]

if gasol was never included in that collusion this discussion wouldn't be happening. shit... gasol wouldn't even be mentioned at all, ever!

[DAF86]

Kobe has got Johnson beat on every stat you said. No match.

Then Sonic is right, the comparison is senseless Gasol is Kobe and Nowitzki is Johnson.

[DAF86]

Great fucking basketball discussion.

:cry

You forgot that, tbh.

[Leetonidas]

Is this a serious question? Only stupid Laker trolls would pick Gasol. I think Gasol would be sexier on the Spurs than Dirk, but as far as overall talent goes, Dirk destroys Gasol. Dirk is an MVP caliber player while Gasol is a great second option on a championship team.

[anonoftheinternets]

id go with gasol after last season ... even pop called him the most skilled big man in the nba ...

[Venti Quattro]

Is this a serious question? Only stupid Laker trolls would pick Gasol. I think Gasol would be sexier on the Spurs than Dirk, but as far as overall talent goes, Dirk destroys Gasol. Dirk is an MVP caliber player while Gasol is a great second option on a championship team.

qft. Pau fits on many mid-level teams to create championship contenders of them but if you want to build a team from scratch, you go with Dirk.

[21_Blessings]

If you want to build a team from scratch to perceptually fail, yeah you would go with Dirk.

[Giuseppe]

I still recall Kobe on the first ABC game after the trade in the post game/on court interview. No game face, no set chin, no dry mouth, just unabashed joy at the acquisition of Gasol. He literally hopped off the court after the interview concluded. It was adorable.

I'd thought: big f'in deal....the guy is nothing more than a smooth operator like Dirk, cept he operates 2 feet closer than Dirk's 20 foot soft seat/operating area.

Gee, was I all wet.

Bryant knew though.

[Leetonidas]

Gasol has Nowitzki beat on everything, I think it's fair to say that Pau is a better player than Dirk. What do you think?

Also, it kinda seems like you're attempting to bait Mavfan, especially with that last line. If you're not serious, I have to remind you that Dirk is a #1 option surrounded by decent players. Kidd is old, Butler disappears in the playoffs, JET is old and streaky, Marion is old and can't shoot, etc. They will be better with another season under their belt, but if you combined the Lakers and Mavs 6 best players, it would be: Kobe, Dirk, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and Artest. Obviously Dirk's shooting percentage will be slightly lower when he shoots way more shots, especially tough fadeaways, and he doesn't have the luxury of having a great defensive team and the second best player in the game taking pressure off of him.

Nowitzki is a superior player to Gasol. I like Pau but it's sickening how before he played with LA he was a no one, just a decent player, without A SINGLE playoff victory. Now that he has Kobe and one of the most talented teams assembled in the last decade, he's an MVP caliber player. Riiiiight. :rolleyes

[Kindergarten Cop]

I voted for Dirk and I really didn't think that it was that hard of a decision. If they had switched places, IMHO the Lakers would have still won back to back Championships with Dirk and the Mavericks would have gone no farther in the playoffs lead by Pau. Pau is a GREAT player and fits in extremely well with the Lakers, but Dirk is more of a number one option in my eyes.

[21_Blessings]

Nowitzki is a superior player to Gasol.

The only thing Dirk does better than Gasol is shoot from long distance.

This alpha dog talking point is hilarious because Dirk has failed time and time again as said alpha dog. Dirk even shit himself when Stephen Jackson made him his personal bitch. Gasol/Dirk are born of the same tier. Both were born to be number 2s.

Nothing wrong with that.

[leemajors]

The only thing Dirk does better than Gasol is shoot from long distance.

This alpha dog talking point is hilarious because Dirk has failed time and time again as said alpha dog. Dirk even shit himself when Stephen Jackson made him his personal bitch. Gasol/Dirk are born of the same tier. Both were born to be number 2s.

Nothing wrong with that.

I think Nelson threw everyone and the kitchen sink at Dirk, and his teammates didn't respond very well. Hard to fault him for that.

[21_Blessings]

I think Nelson threw everyone and the kitchen sink at Dirk,

Not really no. And that Warriors defense was one of worst of all time to be honest.


and his teammates didn't respond very well. Hard to fault him for that.

Instead of responding Dirk assumed the fetal position. Hardly a kingly inspiration to his lowly subjects.

[Giuseppe]

Instead of responding Dirk assumed the fetal position.

Yep, yep.

[TinTin]

Pretty sure this topic was made before within the last two months

lol @ trying to bait the mav

[DAF86]

This thread was made with the intention of determine who the better player is. Nothing more than that.

[picc84]

2 years ago, I pick Dirk without question.

1 year ago, I hesitate, maybe still picking Dirk but thinking hard about it.

Today, Gasol has grown as a player by bounds since he first came to the Lakers, inspired mostly by the fiery lashings of Kobe Bryant and the Lakes coaching staff, and his game has improved to the point where he can safely be said to be a better all-around basketball player than Dirk Nowitzi. For the all crap I give to the Mavs, I respect Dirk and like him a lot. And as a scorer, he's definitely the better of the two. But Gasol is better at literally everything else having to do with basketball. And the fact that he plays close to the basket where his big-man skills do more to help the team than he could from the perimeter closes the gap on Dirk's scoring ability.

Yeah, I know Pau's stats are around the same now as they were years ago. But watching him the past 3 years, he is without a doubt a substantially better ball player now than he was then. And a lot of it just has to do with aggressiveness. He doesn't let the game come to him anymore. Now, he takes it. And its been a blessed joy to watch happen.

[Lukor]

Here we go again...

[IronMexican]

Pau Gasol is a much better player. Can't even compare the two, really.

[Cane]

Yea if we're talking about entire careers I'd go with Dirk but if its right now I'm going with Gasol. He's become a better player since '08 especially when it comes to confidence and strength. Gasol's also two years younger and has multiple Finals/championships for experience. Easier to build around a traditional big as well than a stretch 4; hell thats another advantage for Pau - his versatility lets him play both the 4 and 5 without missing a step.

[Giuseppe]

Today, Gasol has grown as a player by bounds since he first came to the Lakers, inspired mostly by the fiery lashings of Kobe Bryant

The goods.

[Texas_Ranger]

:lol @ Pau > Dirk.

[J.J.Barea]

Pau Gasol is a much better player. Can't even compare the two, really.

:rollin crofl :rollin

My favorito Dirk (who btw has a carreer playoff average of 27/11/2) obviously owned/still owns Pau in every imaginable match-up. (u should watch some Mavs-Lakers/Fiba World Cup games - Dirks used to blast +30 points in Paus face on a regular basis)

If my predilecto Dirk would have a Top 5 of all-time player as his Batman...man...we would be talkin about at least five of these babys:
:lobt2:

and btw...Rick C approves this message:
http://www.bilderload.com/bild/51273/spotonRDZVJ.jpg

[TD 21]

Gasol wins this hands down. I can't stand either, but Gasol is the closest thing to prime Duncan since prime Duncan (that being said, he's not even close), in terms of the all around game.

Nowitzki is strictly a great scorer, but he also shoots more than any other big man in the game. Give Gasol the same amount of shots as Nowitzki and the scoring gap between them closes.

Outside of range shooting and maybe ball handling, Gasol's got him beat in every other category. He's got a better back to the basket game, he rebounds better, is a better shot blocker, a better passer, a better individual and team defender, etc.

Nowitzki is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

[redzero]

If you want to build a team from scratch to perceptually fail, yeah you would go with Dirk.

Yeah, and we all know how far the Grizzlies went with Gasol as the number one man.

[usdane]

Got to go with the back-2-back Champion here. He dominated these playoffs.

[ambchang]

Replace Gasol with Dirk, and the Lakers will win 4 championships in a row.

Oh wait, shouldn't have said that out loud, the league will now force the Mavs into trading Nowitzki to the Lakers for 2 2nd round picks, Nowitzki younger brother, and Derek Fisher who would somehow opt out of a contract and resign with the Lakers.

[21_Blessings]

Yeah, and we all know how far the Grizzlies went with Gasol as the number one man.

Yeah, and we all know how far Germany went with Dirk as the number one citizen.

[Indazone]

you can't even begin to compare these two. Dirk is a 7 footer who plays like a guard and is soft as pudding. Has no postup game. Gasol plays a good postup game and can score from a variety of spots on the court. Both are Europeans bout all you can say bout that. One is French the other is German...wow! Imagine that!

[J.J.Barea]

you can't even begin to compare these two. Dirk is a 7 footer who plays like a guard and is soft as pudding. Has no postup game. Gasol plays a good postup game and can score from a variety of spots on the court. Both are Europeans bout all you can say bout that. One is French the other is German...wow! Imagine that!
fail

[resistanze]

Gasol is French?

[21_Blessings]

Replace Gasol with Dirk, and the Lakers

The Lakers already have a shooting guard and their defense and rebounding would become noticeably worse.

[redzero]

Yeah, and we all know how far Germany went with Dirk as the number one citizen.

:lol Now you're resorting to international play when you have no argument?

[21_Blessings]

:lol Now you're resorting to international play when you have no argument?

:lol Dirk hasn't won shit on any professional level as the number one.

Dirk is no different than Gasol other than that one plays PF and the other plays SG.

[Leetonidas]

Except he's taken a team to the Finals himself while Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game in Memphis, and won an MVP award.

[redzero]

:lol Dirk hasn't won shit on any professional level as the number one.

And yet you criticize Dirk for failing as the number one guy but completely ignore Gasol's failures.

[21_Blessings]

Except he's taken a team to the Finals himself while Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game in Memphis, and won an MVP award.

Dirk took his team to a backdoor finals sweep himself while Gasol was leading his country to national glory. The MVP award given to Dirk was a farce and never deserved or justified unlike Gasol's much validated Eurobasket MVP.

And Steve Nash is better than any player Gasol has played with on the Spanish National team :lol

[Giuseppe]

Except he's taken a team to the Finals himself

But, he lostPERIOD

[redzero]

Again, you criticize Dirk for not being a sufficient centerpiece in the NBA, and then you completely ignore Gasol's inadequacy as a franchise player in the NBA.

[TD 21]

I'm so sick of the excuses for Nowitzki. His team has been good enough at times in the past to win a championship. Too bad they lacked a true lead player on a championship caliber team to push them over the top.

Has he lacked a true best or second best player on a championship caliber team next to him? I'll give you that, but he's also had a top three payroll annually and been surrounded with oodles of All-Star caliber talent, the likes of which exceeds what most superstars or near superstars have played with.

[Leetonidas]

But we're talking individual accomplishments, and that is one, as well as his MVP. Dirk has done more than Gasol in the NBA as a #1 option: Fact.

Also LMAO at trying to use to Spanish National team as any sort of empirical evidence in this thread. :lmao :lmao :lmao

Nash may have been better than any teammate of Gasol's but let's be real, Nash wasn't shit til he went to Phoenix and made a name for himself.

[21_Blessings]

Again, you criticize Dirk for not being a sufficient centerpiece in the NBA, and then you completely ignore Gasol's inadequacy as a franchise player in the NBA.

That's because they're both number 2s in a NBA setting.

Memphis was never winning anything of substance with Gasol just like Dallas will never win anything of substance with Dirk.

[ogait]

Except he's taken a team to the Finals himself while Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game in Memphis, and won an MVP award.

Except this time we are comparing a Lakers player with a Mavs player. Only time Lakers fans bring that shit up is when they need to downgrade Gasol to label Bryant as the goat.

[redzero]

I'm not saying that Dirk didn't choke or wasn't a franchise player; that's irrelevant. What I'm saying is, neither is Gasol. Putting Gasol over Dirk because the latter didn't lead his team to a championship is pointless, because Gasol couldn't even get a single win in the playoffs in 12 games.


That's because they're both number 2s in a NBA setting.

Memphis was never winning anything of substance with Gasol just like Dallas will never win anything of substance with Dirk.

And Dirk as a number one won an MVP and went to the Finals, while Gasol as the number one was swept three times.

[Giuseppe]

....unless you win the Finals, yer white bread.

[21_Blessings]

But we're talking individual accomplishments, and that is one, as well as his MVP. Dirk has done more than Gasol in the NBA as a #1 option: Fact.

Winning a media popularity contest only to be assfucked out of the playoffs by the 8 seed is not a meaningful accomplishment. I'd prefer a Gold Medal thank you very much.

But this is Spur fan logic where the 2004 Olympics never happened :lol


Also LMAO at trying to use to Spanish National team as any sort of empirical evidence in this thread. :lmao :lmao :lmao

Nash may have been better than any teammate of Gasol's but let's be real, Nash wasn't shit til he went to Phoenix and made a name for himself.

Exactly. Dirk doesn't make the players around him better, which is why one-trick ponies like Dirk aren't built to be an Alpha in the NBA. Cuban bought talent for Dirk's entire career. End result = epic fail.

Discounting Pau's FIBA accomplishments is very convenient while ignoring Dirk's pathetic FIBA showings. You guys have no problem pointing out how a team like Memphis with the cheapest owner in the NBA could not ascend.

[bus driver]

i voted dirk.
i would much rather have dirk shooting the last shot than gasol. plus gasol is only good because of that other guy who plays on his team........oh ya kobe. if dirk had kobe on his team he would be the next best thing since free porn.

[024]

ah, a thread to bait the mav krew. very clever.

[ogait]

But this is Spur fan logic where the 2004 Olympics never happened :lol



Are you aware that the best player on that tournament was a Spurs player?

[TD 21]

i voted dirk.
i would much rather have dirk shooting the last shot than gasol. plus gasol is only good because of that other guy who plays on his team........oh ya kobe. if dirk had kobe on his team he would be the next best thing since free porn.

Shooting the last shot? What type of logic is that? So forget about the first 47 minutes and change and just focus on the waning seconds? Was O'Neal not the best player in the league for a while and a top three player for a long time just because he wasn't a guy you'd want taking the last shot?

I've never bought that type of logic and have never heard it mentioned until recently. It's the logic Bryant backers use to continue to attempt to pass him off as the best player in the world.

Of course Nowitzki accomplished more than Gasol as a lead player. He played on much more talented teams and was in the midst of his prime during those years.

Honestly, I don't see a legitimate case to be made for Nowitzki. There's no bias here. As I said, I can't stand both.

[024]

depends on what you guys mean by "last shot." gasol is very good at collecting kobe's bricks and converting then into points.

[Giuseppe]

...Artest ain't bad at it either.

tee, hee.

[Silver&Black]

I hate both these guys...but If I gotta choose one...It would be Dirk. When the ball is in Dirk's hands...he's more dangerous than Pau is with the ball.

[TheKingOfMIA6]

I think Dirk since he led a team to the Finals and been an MVP.

[21_Blessings]

I hate both these guys...but If I gotta choose one...It would be Dirk. When the ball is in Dirk's hands...he's more dangerous than Pau is with the ball.

There's only one ball though and 10 players on the court. Which is why the saying goes: "defense/rebounding wins championships."

It also depends whether the player in question is in the post or not. Gasol's hook shot and threat to pass from that position is much more dangerous than Dirk chucking up a fall-away three.

[picc84]

Gasol wins this hands down. I can't stand either, but Gasol is the closest thing to prime Duncan since prime Duncan (that being said, he's not even close), in terms of the all around game.

Nowitzki is strictly a great scorer, but he also shoots more than any other big man in the game. Give Gasol the same amount of shots as Nowitzki and the scoring gap between them closes.

Outside of range shooting and maybe ball handling, Gasol's got him beat in every other category. He's got a better back to the basket game, he rebounds better, is a better shot blocker, a better passer, a better individual and team defender, etc.

Nowitzki is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

Ball handling? My good man have you seen Pau run the break, like a 7'0 Magic dashing and dishing down the court? Its just like....showtime. :hat

[Brazil]

One is French the other is German...wow! Imagine that!

:lol Gasol is the french one ? I'd love that tbh

Are we talking about their carreer or just last season ?



DAF I see what you did here even but I think mavkrew won't bite the bait.

[picc84]

Advantages to Gasol playing close to the basket as opposed to Dirk playing 20 feet away:

- better position to offensive rebound or tip loose balls out to teammates
- gets more 2nd chance points off tip-in opportunities
- can see the floor better with his back to the basket for better passing
- sucks defense into the paint giving more open shots to guards outside
- misses don't result in long rebounds giving other team more fastbreak opportunities
- defense being sucked in toward him allows other players to get into the paint and offensive rebound better (Odom lives off this)

Dirk is a better scorer than Pau is, no doubt, but you factor in the advantages of playing closer to the rim and the disadvantage in scoring ability is mitigated a bit.

[ambchang]

The Lakers already have a shooting guard and their defense and rebounding would become noticeably worse.

Since when is Gasol some defensive demon?

Bynum, Odom, Artest and Bryant are all above average rebounders at their respective positions, they can more than make up for the difference.

[AnthonyM]

this poll should have been a public poll tbh

[Medvedenko]

Dirk is far more of an offensive threat, regardless of the touches said Pau would receive as the #1 option. Also, Pau the player now is a lot better than the one with the Grizz, however Dirk is far more polished.

Overall, I still give the nod to Dirk, even with his lacklustre rebounding and blocked shots for a 7 footer.

[Supergirl]

Nowitzki is a better all around player, because he's one of those players who is basically unguardable. But he lacks a certain...oomph that prevents him from being an elite.

One only has to look at the difference between Gasol on the Grizzlies and Gasol on the Lakers to know that Gasol isn't that great a player - he has just had the luck of playing with Kobe Bryant for the past two seasons. But at least Dirk has won a few playoff rounds. When did Gasol on the Grizzlies ever do that?

[21_Blessings]

Since when is Gasol some defensive demon?

Since he punked Duncan in the 2008 WCF without consistent double teams.


Bynum, Odom, Artest and Bryant are all above average rebounders at their respective positions, they can more than make up for the difference.

Odom has no post presence to speak of, neither does Ron. The Lakers team offense would become more inefficient with another jumpshooter thrown into the mix. What is Dirk doing without the ball when Kobe is creating?

The Lakers have no need for a 7ft shooting guard when they have a better one that actually plays both side of the ball.

Now, I haven't even begun to discuss how terrible Dirk would be in the triangle trying to play center. Having a guy able to switch to the 5 from the 4 at will and even increase his production at times is an invaluable feature to possess when you're building a proper basketball dynasty. And it's something Dirk could never replace.

[ogait]

What I don't get is why it always comes down to how many championships or medals when comparing two players abilities.
Obviously results are important but ppl just keep bringing 2006 finals as the definitive moment of Dirk's career. The first time Pau was in a final he wasn't that great either except he had the luck and a good team to make it there again and prove he could perform better given the chance. Not to mention international achievements, which are important, but just take a look at how many Spanish players are in the NBA and how many Germans and we'll leave it at that.

In any case I think Pau has improved enough in the past seasons, having Phill Jackson calling him soft over and over sure helped, so that this is actually a worthy debate.
I still put Dirk ahead of Pau. Obviously the fact that he plays mostly from mid range has an impact on some of the important stats usually used to compare big men like rebounding and fg % but for me Dirk is fundamentally a better basketball player.

Anyway the real intent of this thread was not to actually discuss these players abilities so I won’t go off topic any more.

[SomeCallMeTim]

If we're talking present day, I'm with Iron Mexican. Gasol is the better player, easily.

No homer.

He scores more efficiently (forget PPS, I prefer TS% which I think does a better job of crediting Dirk for his 3-pt shooting... Pau shot .593 last season, Dirk .578), gets a ton more rebounds, more assists, and blocks, and I believe he's a better defender. The two things that Dirk has readily observable advantages in are 3-pt shooting and TOs.

Where Pau takes some flak is in that he plays at a superstar level of efficiency but not with a superstar level of assertiveness offensively. He's clearly comfortable in more a complementary, team-oriented role.

I really don't see the problem in that. In fact, he's about as perfect a fit as you'll find for Kobe's game, personality, and assertiveness. These guys work together incredibly well.

I do give Dirk credit for being the #1 option on his team but frankly I think the idea of being a #1 option is overrated. Too many basketball fans getting sucked into superstar mentality basketball when it is still clearly teams who win championships.

It's too bad the mid-2000s Pistons didn't win a few more rings because I think it would've driven the point home that one or two superstars is not what makes for championships... it is great teams. Teams do need leaders but this idea that somehow great individuals trump great teams is ridiculous.

[chubster]

Until Dirk plays second fiddle to another superstar, no one can say for sure who would make the best second option.

But if we're comparing them as first options (Memphis Pau vs Dirk), Dirk wins hands down.

[picc84]

Since when is Gasol some defensive demon?

Bynum, Odom, Artest and Bryant are all above average rebounders at their respective positions, they can more than make up for the difference.

Since he was throwing Pierce's shit from the rim to wrap up the NBA finals, while Tony Parkers waltzing to the rim and Dino McDyess is spotting up for one wide open J after another in the first round.

[TD 21]

Ball handling? My good man have you seen Pau run the break, like a 7'0 Magic dashing and dishing down the court? Its just like....showtime. :hat

I know, that's why I said "maybe ball handling".

[Killakobe81]

If we're talking present day, I'm with Iron Mexican. Gasol is the better player, easily.

No homer.

He scores more efficiently (forget PPS, I prefer TS% which I think does a better job of crediting Dirk for his 3-pt shooting... Pau shot .593 last season, Dirk .578), gets a ton more rebounds, more assists, and blocks, and I believe he's a better defender. The two things that Dirk has readily observable advantages in are 3-pt shooting and TOs.

Where Pau takes some flak is in that he plays at a superstar level of efficiency but not with a superstar level of assertiveness offensively. He's clearly comfortable in more a complementary, team-oriented role.

I really don't see the problem in that. In fact, he's about as perfect a fit as you'll find for Kobe's game, personality, and assertiveness. These guys work together incredibly well.

I do give Dirk credit for being the #1 option on his team but frankly I think the idea of being a #1 option is overrated. Too many basketball fans getting sucked into superstar mentality basketball when it is still clearly teams who win championships.

It's too bad the mid-2000s Pistons didn't win a few more rings because I think it would've driven the point home that one or two superstars is not what makes for championships... it is great teams. Teams do need leaders but this idea that somehow great individuals trump great teams is ridiculous.

Great point. I think everyones acts if the Lakers choked in 2004 ...
The Pistons sensed our weaknesses both on the court and off and beat us in to submission ...
To not give the pistons full credit for how they picked us apart...is ignorant.
They played great team defense, rotating to 3 pt shooters and to the open man almost WITHOUT fail.
On offense the ball moved quick and they worked the mismatches ...

The 2004 Pistons are one of my FAVORITE title teams that don't have the Lakers attached and I even enjoyed them more than the Lakers 2002 team that bickered like some teenage girls ...

[DAF86]

The "number one" argument is pointless tbh, when Gasol was a number one guy he never had the talent around him that Dirk had, and Pau himself wasn't the same player that he is right now.

[Indazone]

ok, if I had to, I would definately take Gasol over Dirk. But if Gasol played back in the day with Kareem, Olajuwan, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq...he would have gotten destroyed.

[Supergirl]

LOL at the argument that Gasol has improved as a player since being on the Lakers. As if, you know, playing with Kobe fucking Bryant isn't the reason why he's magically "improved."

Don't think for a minute if Dirk didn't have Kobe playing with him in that Finals match up against the Heat, they wouldn't have won the series. Easily.

It's amazing how much easier a big man's game gets when he has a dominant, healthy SG to score at will.

[Red Hawk #21]

This is a really good topic imho. Dirk is a phenomenal player, and a hall of famer. He's lethal with the ball, a really great scorer. If we're comparing careers then you have to pick Dirk over Gasol. But personally, if you ask me who I'd take today I'd go with Pau. I feel Pau is the best big man in the league. I really like what he did with his game. Back in Memphis Pau used to get abused by pretty much everyone. When he got to L.A he really changed his game.

He's not physically intimidating, but there is no doubt he's much stronger than he was in Memphis. He's a beast in the low post, he has a countermove for almost every way the defender plays him. Very Duncan-esque. The guy can score in the paint, can defend, is a great rebounder, and can pass fairly well. Dirk is a great player but I think Pau is the better player now.

[Stevebass18]

Lol @ Gasol punking Duncan in the 2008 WCF.

Duncan destroyed Gasol in scoring, blocks, and rebounds in that series, including a triple double in the closeout game. This was Duncan slightly past his prime as well. You could say the Lakers as a whole punked the Spurs, or that Kobe was unstoppable.

Although I will say right now that Gasol is better than Duncan, and is slightly worse than Dirk.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Advantages to Gasol playing close to the basket as opposed to Dirk playing 20 feet away:

- better position to offensive rebound or tip loose balls out to teammates
- gets more 2nd chance points off tip-in opportunities
- can see the floor better with his back to the basket for better passing
- sucks defense into the paint giving more open shots to guards outside
- misses don't result in long rebounds giving other team more fastbreak opportunities
- defense being sucked in toward him allows other players to get into the paint and offensive rebound better (Odom lives off this)

Dirk is a better scorer than Pau is, no doubt, but you factor in the advantages of playing closer to the rim and the disadvantage in scoring ability is mitigated a bit.

What is this "Dirk is a better scorer" thing that I keep seeing repeated?

They look pretty even to me. Even if you want to give credit to Dirk for greater volume, which is fair, Pau is more efficient.

It's not just about how many points you put up... how did you get them?

Besides, scoring is overrated. Scoring is only part of offense... TOs, assists, ORBs are all good indicators of what a player's doing on that end of the floor that isn't shown by PPG or shooting percentages.

Dirk gets kudos for not giving away the ball as often on TOs but then you have to credit Pau for lengthening more possessions with ORBs, too. And Pau gets more assists.

I'd call it a draw when it comes to offense.

[SomeCallMeTim]

LOL at the argument that Gasol has improved as a player since being on the Lakers. As if, you know, playing with Kobe fucking Bryant isn't the reason why he's magically "improved."

Don't think for a minute if Dirk didn't have Kobe playing with him in that Finals match up against the Heat, they wouldn't have won the series. Easily.

It's amazing how much easier a big man's game gets when he has a dominant, healthy SG to score at will.

He is playing the best basketball of his career. I'm thinking being healthy and being at what is usually a pro player's age peak is most of that. I give credit to Kobe, Phil, good players, and a great organization around him and supporting him as well. Pau's also a smart player and it seems he's learned his lessons over the years and I think deepens his game season by season.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol

Are you telling me that Gasol couldn't have improved as he entered his "NBA prime"?..have you never heard of that? :lol..

Kobe's impact on Gasol is extremely overrated..of course he helps, but look at Gasol's dominance during the stretch in which Kobe was injured..small sample size, but it also shows that Pau is still capable of doing it on a consistent basis, and it shows that he has obviously improved in LA..

He's in an ideal system for him where they play to his strengths, particularly his post scoring and passing..he's clearly gotten stronger, thus improving his D and leverage in the post..he has clearly gotten tougher, which can't be argued..I'm sure Kobe and the rest of the Lakers had a part in helping Pau get tougher, but how does that change anything?..

I don't understand how people bring up Memphis as an example..Gasol wasn't in his prime, he was in a system that didn't compliment his strengths, and he didn't have anybody on the team that was even a near All-Star caliber player..


As for Dirk vs. Pau, Nowitzki obviously has 1 main advantage, his scoring, volume scoring in particular..he's obviously a better overall scorer, and he's much, much more likely to explode for a high scoring game than Pau is..if my team needs a #1 scorer, I would go with Nowitzki without any doubt..

As surprising as it is, while Pau obviously has the more versatile post-up game, Dirk was actually slightly more effective in the post this season..Dirk shot 50% from post-up situations, while Pau shot 48%..Dirk drew a foul on 12% of the plays, while Pau drew a foul on 11%..Dirk turned it over less..Pau had more attempts in the post, so that would even it out by a little, but not enough to make a big difference..

Dirk is a pretty underrated post player..he does a lot of damage in the mid-post, but it's still effective, even if it isn't what you would see in a traditional post-up player or as close to the basket as you would expect..

The only scoring situation where Gasol had a clear advantage in efficiency was in p&r and transition situations..Gasol is one of the best big men in the NBA at running the fast break, even though that isn't a valuable trait for a big man IMO..

It's fair to say that Dirk is a decent enough margin in the scoring advantage IMO..

Pau's main advantages obviously come in passing, where he's probably the best passing big man in the NBA..Dirk is an average/slightly above average passer, so it's not comparable..Gasol's passing is a huge part in what the Lakers do, and he showed it off during the games where Kobe sat out..

Gasol is also the better rebounder..

Defensively, there's a significant difference between the two..the only advantage Dirk had this season was that he was slightly better at defending the pick and roll..

So even if it's a cop-out, I would go with the common answer that I would take Nowitzki if I needed a #1 scoring option, but Gasol anywhere else..

[DAF86]

LOL at the argument that Gasol has improved as a player since being on the Lakers. As if, you know, playing with Kobe fucking Bryant isn't the reason why he's magically "improved."

Don't think for a minute if Dirk didn't have Kobe playing with him in that Finals match up against the Heat, they wouldn't have won the series. Easily.

It's amazing how much easier a big man's game gets when he has a dominant, healthy SG to score at will.

No, Kobe Bryant isn't the reason Gasol improved.

The reasons are:

1) Gasol hitting his phisycal and mental prime.
2) Phil Jackson's offensive system.

If Kobe wouldn't have averaged 21.5 FG attempts per game (more than any other star in the NBA) and would have let Gasol average more than 13, I think it's fair to say that Gasol would have been even better.

[IronMexican]

HH pleasing his new crew and still defending MVPau. Nice.

[Darrin]

Horrible topic. Dirk has carried the weight for 10 years as the best player on his team and has done it at an MVP-type level. This is a case of the stats being too advanced. Gasol has been the best player on an 8th-seed that lost in the first round. Dirk was an MVP on a 67-win team and has led his team against the defending Champions on the road against a 60-win team and won. That's no small feat.

[DAF86]

Horrible topic. Dirk has carried the weight for 10 years as the best player on his team and has done it at an MVP-type level. This is a case of the stats being too advanced. Gasol has been the best player on an 8th-seed that lost in the first round. Dirk was an MVP on a 67-win team and has led his team against the defending Champions on the road against a 60-win team and won. That's no small feat.

We are comparing players here, not teams.

[Darrin]

We are comparing players here, not teams.

And you cannot do that in a vacuum. He has to perform every night for the Mavericks. Kobe is the player like that on the Lakers. When Pau was that player on the Grizzlies he was inconsistent and didn't win anything. Winning is a part of my evaluation of players. How a player gets stats and when is as important as how productive they are.

[DAF86]

And you cannot do that in a vacuum. He has to perform every night for the Mavericks. Kobe is the player like that on the Lakers. When Pau was that player on the Grizzlies he was inconsistent and didn't win anything. Winning is a part of my evaluation of players. How a player gets stats and when is as important as how productive they are.

Looking at team's accomplishments to compare players is a dumb thing to do, '06 Kobe was better than current Kobe, '06 Kobe lost in the first round current Kobe won it all.

P/S: Gasol has been a lot more consistent than Kobe this season.

[SomeCallMeTim]

And you cannot do that in a vacuum. He has to perform every night for the Mavericks. Kobe is the player like that on the Lakers. When Pau was that player on the Grizzlies he was inconsistent and didn't win anything. Winning is a part of my evaluation of players. How a player gets stats and when is as important as how productive they are.

What do you mean by "inconsistent"?

[chubster]

These fucking hypocrites claim Gasol getting better number as a 2nd option has nothing to do with Kobe Bryant yet insists that Shaq has made the game much easier for Kobe when they played together.

I've never met me a single intelligent Kobe hater. Never.
Those dumbasses should never procreate.

[DAF86]

These fucking hypocrites claim Gasol getting better number as a 2nd option has nothing to do with Kobe Bryant yet insists that Shaq has made the game much easier for Kobe when they played together.

I've never met me a single intelligent Kobe hater. Never.
Those dumbasses should never procreate.

I don't know about others, but I've never said that Shaq made the game easier for Kobe, just that Kobe won his first three rings thanks to Shaq.

[picc84]

Kobe had nothing to do with Gasol's improvement as a player, eh? Pau just "happened" to hit him prime after he got traded to the Lakers and immediately saw improvement to his game every year since. :lmao

[chubster]

I don't know about others, but I've never said that Shaq made the game easier for Kobe, just that Kobe won his first three rings thanks to Shaq.
Does Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

[DAF86]

Does Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

Some times, some other times, Manu and TP make the game easier for TD.

[chubster]

Some times, some other times, Manu and TP make the game easier for TD.
So how come Duncan is the franchise player, not Manu or TP?

[DAF86]

So how come Duncan is the franchise player, not Manu or TP?

Because he's the better player of the three.

[JamStone]

Gasol:

pts per FG attempt: 1.4
FG%: 536
assts: 3.4
rbds: 11.3
blks: 1.7
MPG: 37
2 NBA championships

Nowitzki:

pts per FG attempt: 1.3
FG%: 481
assts: 2.7
rbds: 7.7
blks: 1.0
MPG: 37.5
first round exit

Gasol has Nowitzki beat on everything, I think it's fair to say that Pau is a better player than Dirk. What do you think?

Just curious what you think about this...

Corey Maggette:

pts per FG attempt: 1.6
FG%: .516
assts: 2.5
rbds: 5.3
blks: 0.1
MPG: 29.7

Manu Ginobili:

pts per FG attempt: 1.4
FG%: .441
assts: 4.9
rbds: 3.8
blks: 0.3
MPG: 28.7

Obviously, Ginobili plays for a better team than Maggette. But Maggette has Ginobili beat in everything except assists and blocks, but neither do anything substantial with shotblocking.

Is it fair to you to say Corey Maggette is a better player than Manu Ginobili based on the same system you used to compare Dirk and Pau?

BTW, I've never seen someone use "points per FG attempt" as a stat to compare players in an attempt to skew the fact that the player they were trying to discredit was obviously a much, much better scorer. Think the NBA and ESPN are ready to do away with "PPG" in favor of "points per field goal attempt?"

Smh.

[chubster]

Because he's the better player of the three.
Yet Parker and Ginobili had made the game easier for Tim at times?
Shouldn't they share the franchise players title together?

No, let me take it a step further. How does Tim Duncan with his low assists numbers make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

[Darrin]

What do you mean by "inconsistent"?

I mean getting 6 points and 8 rebounds and 29 and 16 the next. Now he may have 17.5 ppg and 12.0 rpg average for the series, but did he show up in that first game or did he let the second carry his average. Look at this year's postseason by series. I've had this conversation about Tayshaun Prince. He had a matchup against the Jazz and proceded to beat them down for it. The next two series--against Amar'e and KG--not anywhere near as productive.

He was there for games one and two of the Finals and he disappeared in Boston. It almost cost LA the title because he's inconsistent. He can be deadly, but he shifts between gears one and five too quickly. That makes Dirk a better player.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Yet Parker and Ginobili had made the game easier for Tim at times?
Shouldn't they share the franchise players title together?

No, let me take it a step further. How does Tim Duncan with his low assists numbers make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

Are you really attempting to make this argument? :wow

Do you think that Pippen and Rodman made the game easier for Jordan at times? I most definitely do - yet I will NEVER try to argue that Pippen or Rodman should be considered the "franchise player" that Jordan was.

[DAF86]

Just curious what you think about this...

Corey Maggette:

pts per FG attempt: 1.6
FG%: .516
assts: 2.5
rbds: 5.3
blks: 0.1
MPG: 29.7

Manu Ginobili:

pts per FG attempt: 1.4
FG%: .441
assts: 4.9
rbds: 3.8
blks: 0.3
MPG: 28.7

Obviously, Ginobili plays for a better team than Maggette. But Maggette has Ginobili beat in everything except assists and blocks, but neither do anything substantial with shotblocking.

Is it fair to you to say Corey Maggette is a better player than Manu Ginobili based on the same system you used to compare Dirk and Pau?

You could definitely make a case, although in this case Manu does beat Maggette in a very important category and by a big margin.


BTW, I've never seen someone use "points per FG attempt" as a stat to compare players in an attempt to skew the fact that the player they were trying to discredit was obviously a much, much better scorer. Think the NBA and ESPN are ready to do away with "PPG" in favor of "points per field goal attempt?"

Smh.

??? Points per FG attempt is one of the most important "advanced stats", and do you really think that Dirk is a "much, much better scorer"? Give the two the same amount of shots and I don't think the PPG difference would be significant, in fact is probable that Gasol would average more points than Dirk.

[chubster]

Are you really attempting to make this argument? :wow

Do you think that Pippen and Rodman made the game easier for Jordan at times? I most definitely do - yet I will NEVER try to argue that Pippen or Rodman should be considered the "franchise player" that Jordan was.
How did Pippen and Rodman make the game easier for Jordan?

After you come up the answer to that question, ask yourself why people like the posters I responded to earlier refuse to use the same logic in the case of Kobe Bryant making the game easier for Gasol.

[DAF86]

Yet Parker and Ginobili had made the game easier for Tim at times?

Yes, it's possible for lesser players to make life easier for the better ones.


Shouldn't they share the franchise players title together?

I didn't know there was a franchise player title.


No, let me take it a step further. How does Tim Duncan with his low assists numbers make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

Assists aren't the only way to make life easier for your teammates.

[DAF86]

After you come up the answer to that question, ask yourself why people like the posters I responded to earlier refuse to use the same logic in the case of Kobe Bryant making the game easier for Gasol.

Kobe does make life easier for Gasol some times, he isn't the reason why Pau is a better player now than earlier in his career though.

[IronMexican]

Holy fuck. Is DAF really retarded enough to not make this poll public? Got fucking damnit,

[DAF86]

Holy fuck. Is DAF really retarded enough to not make this poll public? Got fucking damnit,

Unforced error, tbh.

[DAF86]

I will work an arrangement with Kori and timvp to tell us if someone from the you know what voted on this poll.

[milkshakeballa]

He was there for games one and two of the Finals and he disappeared in Boston. It almost cost LA the title because he's inconsistent. He can be deadly, but he shifts between gears one and five too quickly. That makes Dirk a better player.

:lol:lol

Games 1-7 of the 2010 NBA Finals for Pau Gasol:

Pts/Reb/Asts/Blocks
23/14/3/3
25/8/3/6
13/10/4/2
21/6/3/2
12/12
17/13/9/3
19/18/4/2

Come on. Those are ridiculous numbers against a Celtic defense in the finals. ANYONES EFFICIENY AND NUMBERS will take a hit going up against Boston's D for 7 games PERIOD. And he still put up those numbers and you are going to criticise HIM for almost costing the Lakers a title?!?!? LOL

And please criticize Pau as you wish...but to say he is inconsistent?

The guy was BY FAR AND AWAY the most consistent Laker last year. Probably one of the most consistent players in the entire NBA. LOL

IMO - Pau is the better player ATM and IMO Pau is the best 2way big in the league.

Career - They aren't over. Pau could very well retire with 4-5 rings averaging 20/10 during the runs.

People who compare Pau as 1 to Dirk as 1 realize who each team is playing with as well.

I still think Dirk is a slightly better #1 option. But put Pau on those Dallas teams and they are VERY VERY good teams too.


And where is this Pau became a different player coming to LA talk coming from?!?!?!


The guy was a FREAKIGN BEAST in Memphis. He didn't have much to play for there. Like Harlem said it wasn't a great system for him. But the guy was still a f'in beast. Did he toughen up in LA? Did Kobe make him a better player? Of course...but not much. The guy is now just getting the respect he has always deserved.

He needed the big stage..

[milkshakeballa]

And you cannot do that in a vacuum. He has to perform every night for the Mavericks. Kobe is the player like that on the Lakers. When Pau was that player on the Grizzlies he was inconsistent and didn't win anything. Winning is a part of my evaluation of players. How a player gets stats and when is as important as how productive they are.


Put Dirk on those Memphis teams and he wouldn't even be heard from...

[chubster]

Assists aren't the only way to make life easier for your teammates.
Please elaborate more. I'd love to hear how exactly Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili.

Kobe does make life easier for Gasol some times, he isn't the reason why Pau is a better player now than earlier in his career though.
How do you know Gasol is a better player now?

[DAF86]

Please elaborate more. I'd love to hear how exactly Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili.

Defense, rebounds, beign a constant focus of attention, etc.


How do you know Gasol is a better player now?

From the magic of sight.

[milkshakeballa]

Please elaborate more. I'd love to hear how exactly Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili.


Because he is Tim fucking Duncan

[EIC]

Also, it kinda seems like you're attempting to bait Mavfan, especially with that last line. If you're not serious, I have to remind you that Dirk is a #1 option surrounded by decent players. Kidd is old, Butler disappears in the playoffs, JET is old and streaky, Marion is old and can't shoot, etc. They will be better with another season under their belt, but if you combined the Lakers and Mavs 6 best players, it would be: Kobe, Dirk, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and Artest. Obviously Dirk's shooting percentage will be slightly lower when he shoots way more shots, especially tough fadeaways, and he doesn't have the luxury of having a great defensive team and the second best player in the game taking pressure off of him.

Nowitzki is a superior player to Gasol. I like Pau but it's sickening how before he played with LA he was a no one, just a decent player, without A SINGLE playoff victory. Now that he has Kobe and one of the most talented teams assembled in the last decade, he's an MVP caliber player. Riiiiight. :rolleyes

This is spot on.

/thread

[chubster]

Defense, rebounds, beign a constant focus of attention, etc.

So Duncan being the constant focus of attention helps Manu and Parker out...

From the magic of sight.
Yet, your sight fails to recognize who the constant focus of attention on the Lakers is.

[DAF86]

So Duncan being the constant focus of attention helps Manu and Parker out...

Yet, your sight fails to recognize who the constant focus of attention on the Lakers is.

You fail to recognize that it's possible for players of the same team to make life easier for each other.

[TinTin]

Does Tim Duncan make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?

Does Artest make the game easier for Kobe?

[EIC]

The "number one" argument is pointless tbh, when Gasol was a number one guy he never had the talent around him that Dirk had,

Yeah, but Pau didn't have anywhere near the success that Dirk had. I mean, not by a mile. Dirk may have had a better supporting cast, but the Mavericks repeatedly had one of (if not the) best records in the NBA, and would be run deep in the playoffs. Meanwhile, in Memphis, Pau was sucking some serious dick, barely clawing his way into the playoffs, only to be tossed aside like a used rubber. The disparity in their supporting casts cannot, by itself, explain the disparity in their respective success as the team's #1.


and Pau himself wasn't the same player that he is right now.

Again, not fair. Dirk is now past his prime while Pau is just hitting his stride. Not to mention that being the #1 wears a man down faster than being the #2. It's like dog years: Every season for a #2 is like two seasons for a #1.

I just don't get how people who wouldn't even recognize Pau's name if he weren't on the Lakers can claim that he is better than a man who was an MVP.

[chubster]

You fail to recognize that it's possible for players of the same team to make life easier for each other.

No, Kobe Bryant isn't the reason Gasol improved.
What now?

[chubster]

Does Artest make the game easier for Kobe?
The same way Bruce Bowen was for Duncan.

[TinTin]

The same way Bruce Bowen was for Duncan.

So why isn't artest a franchise player?

[JamStone]

You could definitely make a case, although in this case Manu does beat Maggette in a very important category and by a big margin.

Come again? You really suggesting that one "could definitely make a case" that Corey Maggette is a better player than Manu Ginobili? Are you serious? There isn't a person alive who follows the NBA who would say there's an argument that Maggette is a better player than Ginobili. Your thread and its logic fails.

And Maggette has Ginobili beat in a very important category and by a big margine... FG%. Oh, and also has him beat in your precious "points per FG attempt" advanced stat.




??? Points per FG attempt is one of the most important "advanced stats", and do you really think that Dirk is a "much, much better scorer"? Give the two the same amount of shots and I don't think the PPG difference would be significant, in fact is probable that Gasol would average more points than Dirk.

Ummm let's go back to my Corey Maggette example.

Corey Maggette has a better CAREER "points per FG attempt" than Michael Jordan. Yes, career. Yes, Michael Jordan. If Corey Maggette is better in an offensive/scoring stat than Michael Jordan, it pretty much means that stat is horseshit, not "one of the most important advanced stats."


Given the same amount of shots, the current Pau Gasol and the current Dirk Nowitkzi would probably score about the same. Put in the same situation of franchise player who is asked to score, Dirk is more capable of scoring more because of jumpshooting ability. It gives him an edge to score against double teams. Gasol is a better low post scorer but he has never really shown himself to be a prolific scorer, even in Memphis when he was the franchise player. He was a 18-20 ppg scorer as a franchise player, while Dirk has proven he could consistently put up 24-26 ppg as a franchise player. That's like the difference between Carmelo Anthony and Rip Hamilton. Both can score, but there's no denying who the better scorer is.

Now even in this thread, based on last season, I think Pau Gasol has become the better all around player. But Pau Gasol has never been the superstar Dirk Nowitzki has been in this league. Up until last year, it wasn't even a contest. Based on last season, I think Gasol has improved in areas of his game, namely rebounding and defense, that I think he's the more complete player. But Pau has never been and will never be the superstar Dirk has been in this league.

[chubster]

So why isn't artest a franchise player?
The same reason Bruce Bowen was not.

[TinTin]

So how come Duncan is the franchise player, not Manu or TP?


Because he's the better player of the three.


Yet Parker and Ginobili had made the game easier for Tim at times?
Shouldn't they share the franchise players title together?

No, let me take it a step further. How does Tim Duncan with his low assists numbers make the game easier for Parker and Ginobili?


So why isn't artest a franchise player?


The same reason Bruce Bowen was not.

Don't know if you are a troll or not

[DAF86]

Yeah, but didn't have anywhere near the success that Dirk had. I mean, not by a mile. Dirk may have had a better supporting cast, but the Mavericks repeatedly had one of (if not the) best records in the NBA, and would be run deep in the playoffs. Meanwhile, in Memphis, Pau was sucking some serious dick, barely clawing his way into the playoffs, only to be tossed aside like a used rubber. The disparity in their supporting casts cannot, by itself, explain the disparity in their respective success as the team's #1.

Gasol lead Memphis to their only playoffs trips with I don't remember who as the second best player, That's a feat. Dirk has constantly had one of the most stacked teams, in one of the most popular NBA teams, with an owner ready to do whatever it takes to have a championship level team every year.


Again, not fair. Dirk is now past his prime while Pau is just hitting his stride. Not to mention that being the #1 wears a man down faster than being the #2. It's like dog years: Every season for a #2 is like two seasons for a #1.

I just don't get how people who wouldn't even recognize Pau's name if he weren't on the Lakers can claim that he is better than a man who was an MVP.

In what do you base your opinion that Dirk is past his prime? His numbers look as good as ever.

Either way, we're just arguing who the better player is right now, not past accomplishments.

[DAF86]

Don't know if you are a troll or not

He's a troll.

[chubster]

Don't know if you are a troll or not
A devil's advocate.

I find reverse logic works the best against people with none.

[chubster]

He's a troll.

You fail to recognize that it's possible for players of the same team to make life easier for each other.

No, Kobe Bryant isn't the reason Gasol improved.
2nd time.

What now?

[DAF86]

I find reverse logic works the best against people with none.

You proved that to be wrong on this thread, tbh.

[chubster]

You proved that to be wrong on this thread, tbh.
Hey, I've tried my best. Try seeking professional help.

You fail to recognize that it's possible for players of the same team to make life easier for each other.

No, Kobe Bryant isn't the reason Gasol improved.
3rd time.

What now?

[IronMexican]

Unforced error, tbh.

hwhwhwhat does that even mean?

[darkwitzki]

Dirk is the reason the Mavs won 50 games for 10 straight seasons. Dirk rapes Gasol.

[DAF86]

Hey, I've tried my best. Try seeking professional help.

3rd time.

What now?

I'm not sure of you're a troll or not so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Making life easier for others (at times) does not mean: Making the other player improve, Gasol makes life easier for Kobe too but Kobe hasn't improved as a player since Gasol is in the Lakers. Shaq made life easier for Kobe (probaby more than any other Bryant teammate in history) in the early 00's but most would agree that Kobe in '06, '07 was a better player than in 2000.

[DAF86]

hwhwhwhat does that even mean?

Not a big tennis fan I see.

[BRHornet45]

Gasol hands down. no doubt about it.

[DAF86]

Come again? You really suggesting that one "could definitely make a case" that Corey Maggette is a better player than Manu Ginobili? Are you serious? There isn't a person alive who follows the NBA who would say there's an argument that Maggette is a better player than Ginobili. Your thread and its logic fails.

And Maggette has Ginobili beat in a very important category and by a big margine... FG%. Oh, and also has him beat in your precious "points per FG attempt" advanced stat.

My point there was that Manu (unlike Dirk with Gasol) does beat Maggette at least in a category.

And I know for a fact that there're people that thinks that Maggette is a better player than Manu right now.


Ummm let's go back to my Corey Maggette example.

Corey Maggette has a better CAREER "points per FG attempt" than Michael Jordan. Yes, career. Yes, Michael Jordan. If Corey Maggette is better in an offensive/scoring stat than Michael Jordan, it pretty much means that stat is horseshit, not "one of the most important advanced stats."

You can agree with it or not but pts per FGA is one of the main "advanced stats", I find that stat to be useful 'cause it shows a players' efficiency, which is very important imho. However is not the only stat, I didn't just post that Gasol beats Dirk in pts per FGA, I also showed that he beats him in rebounds, assist, blocks, FG% and pretty much in every important stat for a bigman.


Given the same amount of shots, the current Pau Gasol and the current Dirk Nowitkzi would probably score about the same. Put in the same situation of franchise player who is asked to score, Dirk is more capable of scoring more because of jumpshooting ability. It gives him an edge to score against double teams. Gasol is a better low post scorer but he has never really shown himself to be a prolific scorer, even in Memphis when he was the franchise player. He was a 18-20 ppg scorer as a franchise player, while Dirk has proven he could consistently put up 24-26 ppg as a franchise player. That's like the difference between Carmelo Anthony and Rip Hamilton. Both can score, but there's no denying who the better scorer is.

Now even in this thread, based on last season, I think Pau Gasol has become the better all around player. But Pau Gasol has never been the superstar Dirk Nowitzki has been in this league. Up until last year, it wasn't even a contest. Based on last season, I think Gasol has improved in areas of his game, namely rebounding and defense, that I think he's the more complete player. But Pau has never been and will never be the superstar Dirk has been in this league.

We agree then, Gasol is the better of the two right now.

[TinTin]

But you started off the post asking who is the better player and now it is who is better right now

[DAF86]

But you started off the post asking who is the better player and now it is who is better right now

I made this thread yesterday, not in 2006.

[Darrin]

My point there was that Manu (unlike Dirk with Gasol) does beat Maggette at least in a category.

Jerry Stackhouse scored more points than Kobe Bryant in the 2000-01 Regular Season. Does that mean that Kobe was a worse scorer than Stackhouse for those 82 games? Stackhouse beat him in a category. It's got to at least be a debate, according to your logic.


You can agree with it or not but pts per FGA is one of the main "advanced stats", I find that stat to be useful 'cause it shows a players' efficiency, which is very important imho. However is not the only stat, I didn't just posted that Gasol beats Dirk in pts per FGA, I also showed that he beats him in rebounds, assist, blocks, FG% and pretty much every important stat for a bigman.

It's slanted towards specialist three-point shooters. If a shooter takes 5 field goals in a game and gets 6 points off the two he makes, he's just beat the mid-range shooter who makes 4 off his 4, despite the fact that they are shooting only one less field goal a game.

[TinTin]

So then these sentences are equal?

Who is the better player?

Who is the better player now?

Everyone has been talking in terms of prime here not current except in Gasol's case where he definitely seems to be in his prime

[Bito Corleone]

Dirk is clearly the more talented of the two, but to say who is "better" is kind of tricky. Dirk is a number 1 option, while Pau is a number 2 guy. As a number one option Gasol couldn't accomplish anything near what Dirk has. I guess you have to ask if Pau is a better number 2 than Dirk is a number 1, and the answer to that is yes.

[chubster]

I'm not sure of you're a troll or not so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Making life easier for others (at times) does not mean: Making the other player improve, Gasol makes life easier for Kobe too but Kobe hasn't improved as a player since Gasol is in the Lakers. Shaq made life easier for Kobe (probaby more than any other Bryant teammate in history) in the early 00's but most would agree that Kobe in '06, '07 was a better player than in 2000.
WTF does this even mean?

Are you arguing semantics? I'm not going to discuss the difference between "making life easier" and "improve as a player" because they mean exactly the same thing in basketball context.

[DAF86]

WTF does this even mean?

Are you arguing semantics? I'm not going to discuss the difference between "making life easier" and "improve as a player" because they mean exactly the same thing in basketball context.

No it doesn't, but you can bealive whatever you want, tbh.

[PGDynasty24]

Pau gasol is one of my fav. players and a outstanding player at that. But Dirk is clearly better player,Dirk doesn't have a Kobe to play off of. Dirk is a #1 franchise player,sadly I don't think Pau is.

And this thread is clearly a attempt to get Mavs fans out of their little boycott

[DAF86]

So then these sentences are equal?

Who is the better player?

Who is the better player now?

Everyone has been talking in terms of prime here not current except in Gasol's case where he definitely seems to be in his prime

Posting last season's stats in the OP should have been a heads up, tbh.

Besides Dirk seems to be on his prime too, 25 ppg is right up there among the best years of his career.

[TinTin]

Posting last season's stats in the OP should have been a heads up, tbh.

Besides Dirk seems to be on his prime too, 25 ppg is right up there among the best years of his career.

Everyone else has argued for overall so I don't know what time frame your mind is checked in.

I agree, points per game is the only thing needed to judge whether a player is in his prime or not

[DAF86]

Everyone else has argued for overall so I don't know what time frame your mind is checked in.

August 1st to 31st.


I agree, points per game is the only thing needed to judge whether a player is in his prime or not

All his other stats look the same to his career averages, tbh.

[EIC]

So then these sentences are equal?

Who is the better player?

Who is the better player now?

Everyone has been talking in terms of prime here not current except in Gasol's case where he definitely seems to be in his prime

Exactly.

For example: Who's better, Jordan or Kobe?

DAF86 would say, "Kobe."

:rollin

[ElNono]

tbh, Pau just went back to back as the #1 guy. I don't know why people keep underrating him here. smh

[SomeCallMeTim]

I mean getting 6 points and 8 rebounds and 29 and 16 the next. Now he may have 17.5 ppg and 12.0 rpg average for the series, but did he show up in that first game or did he let the second carry his average. Look at this year's postseason by series. I've had this conversation about Tayshaun Prince. He had a matchup against the Jazz and proceded to beat them down for it. The next two series--against Amar'e and KG--not anywhere near as productive.

He was there for games one and two of the Finals and he disappeared in Boston. It almost cost LA the title because he's inconsistent. He can be deadly, but he shifts between gears one and five too quickly. That makes Dirk a better player.

OK.

But you're going to have to show me how this level of inconsistency is somehow different than Dirk's... or for that matter Kobe's, LeBron's, Duncan's, etc.

I'm not saying Gasol is more or less consistent than any of those players. For all I know, you're right. But I suspect you're making something of an unfounded accusation. My guess is if we looked at the numbers he probably doesn't have much more of a tendency to be inconsistent than Dirk. That's just me going off the top of my head from what I seem to recall about what these players did this postseason.

[ElNono]

I thought this thread was about who was softer, brah... nvm

[chubster]

No it doesn't, but you can bealive whatever you want, tbh.

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.
What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.
The meaning of the gesture to Ariza - and its net effect in transforming his jump shot and thus this Lakers championship team - makes it the quintessence of the latter-day Bryant as a teammate.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.
"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."
Kobe makes life a bit easier for Ariza yet he doesn't help him improve as a player?

You are a moron.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

[HarlemHeat37]

TBH, none of the Dirk supporters have made a good argument for Nowitzki, other than bringing up his past and Gasol's past, which isn't the question..we're discussing which player is better right now..

I didn't pick Gasol, but I stated why you would take each player..most of the others are bringing up team success or bringing up this attention that Kobe gets for Gasol..this doesn't explain Pau's advantage in rebounding, defense and passing, 3 huge aspects of basketball..

Again, I'm not picking Gasol, but most people here are being unfair to him in this comparison..

It's a small sample size, but why are we ignoring what Pau did without Kobe?..Kobe's attention clearly wasn't there in these games, yet Gasol was still able to show what he can do..why do Kobe fans get so insecure about it?..I clearly gave Kobe the benefit of the doubt by saying he helped Gasol's toughness, but why must they cry about it?..Kobe helps Gasol, Gasol helps Kobe..the argument of "making players better" is overrated IMO..

I find that the #1 vs. #2 option is the most logical answer, but you just have to ask yourself..it's scoring vs. rebounding/defending/passing..is Nowitzki's advantage in scoring superior to Gasol's advantage everywhere else?..

I would say that if you need a volume scorer as your #1 option, you undoubtedly go with Nowitzki..

However, if you already have a #1 option, or if you have multiple legit scoring options(don't have to be #1 options, but could be a couple of #2s or #3s, like a Rudy Gay or somebody of that caliber), do you take Gasol and his all-around game?..

Is Nowitzki's unorthodox style more difficult to build around at this point of his career?..

[chubster]

the argument of "making players better" is overrated IMO..

Good. Never use it to describe Tim Duncan and Lebron James.

why do Kobe fans get so insecure about it?
This coming from the guy who claimed he did it for the children?

[HarlemHeat37]

Good. Never use it to describe Tim Duncan and Lebron James.

This coming from the guy who claimed he did it for the children?

I've never used that compliment to describe either Timmy or Lebron..

I don't know what your last point has anything to do with what I said..I gave Kobe a compliment by saying that he helped Pau gain toughness, yet you wanted me to give Kobe even more compliments, which is very common of Kobe fans, TBH..you guys are never satisfied..

[OrEmuN]

Kobe makes life a bit easier for Ariza yet he doesn't help him improve as a player?

You are a moron.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

Making life easier is not the same as helping someone improve as player.
We just need to take something as constant. Lets say Player A posted 10pts 50% FG before Player B joins the team. Player B happened to be an elite player who drew all the double team and attention. Player A managed to get more space to launch his J and hence, becoming a player averaging 15pts, 55% FG.

Scenario 1
Player B leaves team. Player A went back to averaging 10pts 50% FG. That is helping to make life easier for Player A (Effect of Player B)

Scenario 2
Player B leaves team. Player A regress a little due to double teaming on Player B but nevertheless averaged 12 pts, 53% FG. Player B made things easier for Player A and probably helped Player A to improve.

Hence, "making life easier" and "improve as a player" doesn't mean exactly the same thing in basketball context.

[HarlemHeat37]

So the people that are crediting it all to Kobe really don't believe Gasol improved? :lol..is it that mind-blowing?..

[chubster]

Making life easier is not the same as helping someone improve as player.
We just need to take something as constant. Lets say Player A posted 10pts 50% FG before Player B joins the team. Player B happened to be an elite player who drew all the double team and attention. Player A managed to get more space to launch his J and hence, becoming a player averaging 15pts, 55% FG.

Scenario 1
Player B leaves team. Player A went back to averaging 10pts 50% FG. That is helping to make life easier for Player A (Effect of Player B)

Scenario 2
Player B leaves team. Player A regress a little due to double teaming on Player B but nevertheless averaged 12 pts, 53% FG. Player B made things easier for Player A and probably helped Player A to improve.

Hence, "making life easier" and "improve as a player" doesn't mean exactly the same thing in basketball context.
Lame.
Player B helps player A improve his game and become a better player when he's there.

What happens to player A when player B is not with the team anymore shouldn't be a testament to his ability at all.

Should Darren Collison's performance last season be a testament of how well off the Hornets could be without Chris Paul?

So the people that are crediting it all to Kobe really don't believe Gasol improved? :lolThe truth is somewhere in the middle. Claiming Kobe has absolutely no part in Gasol's improvement as a player is just as retarded.

[milkshakeballa]

TBH, none of the Dirk supporters have made a good argument for Nowitzki, other than bringing up his past and Gasol's past, which isn't the question..we're discussing which player is better right now..

I didn't pick Gasol, but I stated why you would take each player..most of the others are bringing up team success or bringing up this attention that Kobe gets for Gasol..this doesn't explain Pau's advantage in rebounding, defense and passing, 3 huge aspects of basketball..

Again, I'm not picking Gasol, but most people here are being unfair to him in this comparison..

It's a small sample size, but why are we ignoring what Pau did without Kobe?..Kobe's attention clearly wasn't there in these games, yet Gasol was still able to show what he can do..why do Kobe fans get so insecure about it?..I clearly gave Kobe the benefit of the doubt by saying he helped Gasol's toughness, but why must they cry about it?..Kobe helps Gasol, Gasol helps Kobe..the argument of "making players better" is overrated IMO..

I find that the #1 vs. #2 option is the most logical answer, but you just have to ask yourself..it's scoring vs. rebounding/defending/passing..is Nowitzki's advantage in scoring superior to Gasol's advantage everywhere else?..

I would say that if you need a volume scorer as your #1 option, you undoubtedly go with Nowitzki..

However, if you already have a #1 option, or if you have multiple legit scoring options(don't have to be #1 options, but could be a couple of #2s or #3s, like a Rudy Gay or somebody of that caliber), do you take Gasol and his all-around game?..

Is Nowitzki's unorthodox style more difficult to build around at this point of his career?..

Great post Harlem...tbh.

[ezau]

Manu is so much better than Kobe

[redzero]

Great post Harlem...tbh.

Are you really a fat guy with highlights in his hair?

[dallaskd]

How many wins did Gasol get as the number one guy again?

Dirk swept Pau out the first round in '06. When both number one guys and in the same division, Pau was Dirk's bitch. Gasol is not an all star if he still plays in Memphis tbh..

[ezau]

Dirk is clearly the more talented of the two, but to say who is "better" is kind of tricky. Dirk is a number 1 option, while Pau is a number 2 guy. As a number one option Gasol couldn't accomplish anything near what Dirk has. I guess you have to ask if Pau is a better number 2 than Dirk is a number 1, and the answer to that is yes.

If Dirk had a chance to play alongside Kobe, then you would have been counting these :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:by now

[ezau]

So how come Duncan is the franchise player, not Manu or TP?

TD can be an anchor both on offense and defense. TP and Manu can't do that.

[will_spurs]

Summary of the thread so far:

Lakers trolls pick Pau.
Anybody with a brain picks Dirk.

[ElNono]

Dirk swept Pau out the first round in '06. When both number guys and in the same division, Pau was Dirk's bitch. Gasol is not an all star if he still plays in Memphis tbh..

tbh, it's hard to have a rematch when your team keeps on getting eliminated in the first round.

[DAF86]

Exactly.

For example: Who's better, Jordan or Kobe?

DAF86 would say, "Kobe."

:rollin

You know me son.

[JamStone]

My point there was that Manu (unlike Dirk with Gasol) does beat Maggette at least in a category.

And I know for a fact that there're people that thinks that Maggette is a better player than Manu right now.

Manu has Maggette beat in a category of the categories you've listed. And that's part of the problem with your initial post comparing Pau and Dirk. You were quite selective with the "stats" you listed to compare the players. You didn't list points per game. You didn't list steals per game. You didn't list free throw attempts. You didn't list 3point shooting or free throw shooting. You listed a biased set of stats that would help support your contention. Heck, you listed an advanced stat because it was so important but didn't use any other advanced stat. Why not include PER, since that is often a stat used to evaluate players? Is it because last season, Pau and Dirk had the same PER? You only listed stats that favored Pau.

But it's cute you started a thread like a little mouse wrecking havoc around the house while the big bad cats are gone.

And you don't know any people that think Maggette is a better player than Ginobili. You know idiots who argue such stupidity.



You can agree with it or not but pts per FGA is one of the main "advanced stats", I find that stat to be useful 'cause it shows a players' efficiency, which is very important imho. However is not the only stat, I didn't just post that Gasol beats Dirk in pts per FGA, I also showed that he beats him in rebounds, assist, blocks, FG% and pretty much in every important stat for a bigman.

Useful for efficiency? Do you truly believe Corey Maggette is a much more efficient scorer than Michael Jordan was? It's not even like Jordan's career "points per FGA" is about the same as Maggette's. Maggette's is significantly better. That right there should tell you that stat is clearly horseshit. I'll give another example. Ruben Patterson has a better career "points per FGA" than
Michael Jordan. Yes, that Ruben Patterson. Notice something similar about Maggette and Ruben Patterson? Neither can make a jumpshot. The stat favors players who are great 3 point shooters and have very good shot selection with their 2 point field goal shooting (Steve Nash or Wally Szczerbiak, for example), players who don't take a lot of jumpers (so big men and slashers often would have better "points per FGA" especially if they are good free throw shooters) and players that get to the free throw line a lot. And the stat obviously does not favor perimeter players who are primarily jump shooters. Maggette does two of those things well, attacking the basket for high percentage shots and getting to the free throw line.

It's no surprise that Maggette has a higher "points per FGA" than a lot of players, obviously even Michael Jordan. And it's no surprise that Pau would have a higher "points per FGA" than Dirk. In fact, it's surprising that it's as close as it is since Dirk is by far a more perimeter oriented offensive player.



We agree then, Gasol is the better of the two right now.

I've already said it twice in this thread. Based on last season, I think Gasol is a better overall player than Dirk. I'll add that Pau will never end up having a better career than Dirk. Career wise, it's not even worth debating. And no matter what "scoring efficiency" stats say, Pau will never be a better scorer than Dirk. But sure, at this point in their respective careers, I think Pau has become a better overall player.

I just think that it's evident that your intentions starting this thread were other than having a genuine discussion about why you think Pau has become a better player than Dirk.

[benefactor]

Votes made after the 31st of August will not be taken into consideration.
lol Dirk winning the poll in a landslide with no Mavs fans posting.

[21_Blessings]

lol Dirk winning the poll in a landslide with no Mavs fans posting.

lol mav fan voting en masse with their trolls

[will_spurs]

And you don't know any people that think Maggette is a better player than Ginobili. You know idiots who argue such stupidity.

:lol:toast

Well done! It about sums it up.

[koriwhat]

dirk is great but when you got a guy 7 ft tall who has no inside game there's a huge glaring problem right there. he's a pussy inside but if he wasn't he would surely win this debate hands down. truth is you don't win titles with a 7 ft shooting guard in this league, maybe in euro-ball but not in the nba.

[DAF86]

lol Dirk winning the poll in a landslide with no Mavs fans posting.

Dude, c'mon.

[DAF86]

But it's cute you started a thread like a little mouse wrecking havoc around the house while the big bad cats are gone.

I think so too, thanks.

lol big bad cats, tbh.

[DAF86]

if gasol was never included in that collusion this discussion wouldn't be happening. shit... gasol wouldn't even be mentioned at all, ever!


dirk is great but when you got a guy 7 ft tall who has no inside game there's a huge glaring problem right there. he's a pussy inside but if he wasn't he would surely win this debate hands down. truth is you don't win titles with a 7 ft shooting guard in this league, maybe in euro-ball but not in the nba.

Who you got then?

[koriwhat]

Who you got then?

think about it. gasol was nothing in memphis and showed he was passive. not until he got to la did he get shit on by kobe and phil to the point that it was either man-up or get the fuck outta here. he has a great skill set and now the emotion and confidence he lacked with his prior organization.

i pick gasol because he's made huge strides in these past few yrs as where dirk has made no attempt to even learn a slight inside game. if you're a big man, play like a big man and if you have an outside shot still play like a big man!

[DAF86]

think about it. gasol was nothing in memphis and showed he was passive. not until he got to la did he get shit on by kobe and phil to the point that it was either man-up or get the fuck outta here. he has a great skill set and now the emotion and confidence he lacked with his prior organization.

Gasol's Memphis days are underrated IMO, think about it: He won ROY and got Memphis the only playoffs trips in their history with a poor supporting cast, all while beign a young guy from another country (which always makes things more difficult) that wasn't in his prime as a player yet, not winning a playoffs game will always be a stigma but that thing is overblown imho.

[My Fault]

think about it. gasol was nothing in memphis and showed he was passive. not until he got to la did he get shit on by kobe and phil to the point that it was either man-up or get the fuck outta here. he has a great skill set and now the emotion and confidence he lacked with his prior organization.

i pick gasol because he's made huge strides in these past few yrs as where dirk has made no attempt to even learn a slight inside game. if you're a big man, play like a big man and if you have an outside shot still play like a big man!

Do you watch basketball? The "strides" Gasol has made are as 2 fiddle. Dirk has always been 1st option. Easy to make strides when you have Kobe next to you.

[sefant77]

What a funny thread.

Lets see:

Dirk has a ridiculous 25/11 average in almost 100 playoff games, together with just 4 other bigmen alltime.

Gasol as franchise player has 0 playoff wins.

Dirk had just one statistically bad series, that was GS. Anyone that saw that series know GS was able to throw double and triple teams at Dirk because every other player could do shit with all that free space.

Terry sucked in every single playoff series since 2006. Howard wasnt healthy since years. Thats about the "stacked" teams and great support...

Dirk NEVER had any player that would rescue a bad game from Dirk. Kobe had it over years, first Shaq and later Gasol/Artest/Odom. Even this year it was in at least 3 important games ending with game 7.

For Gasol its just easy to shine in such a stacked team with Kobe as franchise player....

Mavs lost 2009 against Denver 1-4. Dirk somehow with 35/14/4 on almost 50% shooting, the rest? Sucked.

So nice troll thread for DAF, 21_brainfart and korifuck...

Nice to see other guys not trinking so much Haterade.

[21_Blessings]

Dirk's offensive rebound %: 3.1

Kobe's ORB%: 3.1

:lmao

You see the Lakers already have a shooting guard. They don't need a slow, tall, lanky one that's allergic to the paint. Give me a power forward that actually crashes the board, can defend centers and doesn't hover 20 feet away from the basket. :bking

[sefant77]

Imagine Dirk getting all the calls in the paint like Whistle or Bryant. But since he is a PF...

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/2008/04/21/img_0965.jpg

[21_Blessings]

Imagine if Dirk had a post game?

Maybe then he wouldn't get shut down by athletic wings 5 inches shorter than him. :lol

[diego]

this is a good comparison... two skilled big guys who excel at falling over themselves. I'll take dirk, just because he's been doing it longer, but no doubt pau has an edge since he actually plays like a big guy when he isnt stumbling and moaning. :lol

ps: no need to imagine dirk getting those calls, just watch the 06 western playoffs again

pps: whats this about dirk always being a number 1? why do people discount all the good players that were there before 2006?

[redzero]

Imagine Dirk getting all the calls in the paint like Whistle or Bryant. But since he is a PF...

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/2008/04/21/img_0965.jpg

That's good defense right there.

[ogait]

Dirk's offensive rebound %: 3.1

Kobe's ORB%: 3.1

:lmao

You see the Lakers already have a shooting guard. They don't need a slow, tall, lanky one that's allergic to the paint. Give me a power forward that actually crashes the board, can defend centers and doesn't hover 20 feet away from the basket. :bking

So you are saying that Pau is much better fit than Dirk for the current Lakers.

Most people would still choose Dirk over Pau to start a team because he is a better player.

[benefactor]

Dude, c'mon.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts on your thread and it's timing.

Dirk>Manu

[benefactor]

So much for quality basketball discussion while the Mavs fans are on leave.

[Red Hawk #21]

Imagine Dirk getting all the calls in the paint like Whistle or Bryant. But since he is a PF...

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/2008/04/21/img_0965.jpg

Dirk should have cleared space with his elbows, and btw it looks like Chandler has two hands on Dirk's waist in that picture. I'm not sure, but are you allowed to play defense like that? Shouldn't that be an automatic foul?

[21_Blessings]

So you are saying that Pau is much better fit than Dirk for the current Lakers.

The Lakers are the model for building a dynasty. Guess what? Basketball is a team sport.


Most people would still choose Dirk over Pau to start a team because he is a better player.

Why the fuck would you want to build around Dirk if you had any ambition of winning championships? :rollin

[sefant77]

Dirk should have cleared space with his elbows, and btw it looks like Chandler has two hands on Dirk's waist in that picture. I'm not sure, but are you allowed to play defense like that? Shouldn't that be an automatic foul?

And if he uses his ellbow the defender flops, Gasol can flop pretty good after this.

And yes, Chandler and all the guys have all the time both hands on Dirk and i have no idea why it never get called.

btw to make it easy:
Put Gasol the last decade on the Mavs team instead of Dirk. No way he would have perform better than Dirk did with the rosters he had.

[sefant77]

The Lakers are the model for building a dynasty. Guess what? Basketball is a team sport.



The role model is a crying bitchy franchise player demanding crappy trades or an own trade and then getting lucky with raping a stupid franchise?

Interesting.

[21_Blessings]

btw to make it easy:
Put Gasol the last decade on the Mavs team instead of Dirk. No way he would have perform better than Dirk did with the rosters he had.

Yeah I'm sure Gasol would struggle to not win a championship and shit the bed in the first round to inferior teams.

btw to make it easy:

Replace Pau with Dirk and the Lakers become a worse team. People that actually play basketball would understand why. There's more to playing power forward than shooting off-balance fade away three pointers.

[cesare borgia]

Dirk

Playoff Career: 25.6 ppg 10.9 rpg 103 games

Pau

Playoff Career: 18.5 ppg 9.8 rpg 79 games

Dirk in 01-02 playoffs: 28.4 ppg 13.1 rpg

Let me know when Pau put up number like this.

Dirk>Pau

[ogait]

The Lakers are the model for building a dynasty. Guess what? Basketball is a team sport.


Why the fuck would you want to build around Dirk if you had any ambition of winning championships? :rollin

Lol can't see past the Lakers.

This was supposed to discuss Gasol vs Dirk not who looks better in yellow and purple.

[21_Blessings]

Well the Lakers are relevant. If you want flashy jumpshooting that's gonna win some meaningless regular season games and make realgm masturbate over box scores but ultimately fail when it matters? Then go with Dirk.

If you want a superior power forward that can effortlessly fill a team's playoff needs and help them morph into a dynasty -- you go with Pau Gasol.

[ohmwrecker]

They are both big, white, goofy looking dolts. It's a dead heat.

[James White!]

Nowitzki is fucking garbage. All he can do is shoot fadeaways and chuck three pointers. He is a legit 7 footer who has absolutely no post game and can't rebound or defend for shit. Fuck that german pussy, Pau owns his ass

[picc84]

The role model is a crying bitchy franchise player demanding crappy trades or an own trade and then getting lucky with raping a stupid franchise?

Interesting.

Seems to be working out pretty well. :lol :hat:lobt2::lobt2: