Two interesting pick&roll videos

[will_spurs]

The first one is last year's playoff series against Phoenix, analysing the Phoenix pick & roll offense and the Spurs (lack of) defense.

hPSpvdpnxUw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw)

The second one (low quality) is an analysis of the Denver pick & roll defense against the Spurs after a blowout win by the Spurs, showing the various ways the Spurs run the pick & roll, as usual with either Parker or Ginobili as primary ballhandler. This video is also special because a) Petro gets some praise and b) Mason keeps the ball alive pretty well in one segment (something we all wish we had seen more of in the last couple of years).

r_d1knLJSXo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_d1knLJSXo)

[Leonard Curse]

bonner is just a freaking loser in every sense he looks like his feet are moving 100 miles per hr but his body and hands do nothing!!! what both of these videos that raptor sticks out like a sore thumb

[GSH]

Start with the second video. It's sort of a no-brainer that the pick and roll offense requires a pick to occur. Watch the video again, and notice all the guys cheating their picks. They either make very little body contact, or no contact at all. I bitched about that all through last year's playoffs. (And chunks of the regular season.) When guys don't commit to making good, solid picks, it becomes a lot easier to defend the pick and roll. You'll note that the Spurs pick and roll has a lot more success on the plays where the guy actually sets his pick solidly.

The pick and roll is also about timing. There was at least one example of a play that broke down, not because of the defense, but because of plain old poor timing by the Spurs. That gets better the longer guys play together. (Or at least it should.) That's also one disadvantage to trying to build a team by continually trading for new players. A lot of the heat that the Spurs FO takes is from people who don't understand the value of continuity. The Spurs had some new players last season, and it showed. It's also worth noting that you would expect the Spurs' pick and roll to suffer with the second team on the floor.

Back to the first video. I watched most of it, laughed a little, and shut it down. It is supposed to be showing the Suns' "lethal pick and roll attack". I'm not sure that I saw a single pick being set on any of those plays. What I saw was Nash creating, good ball movement, and guys knocking down their shots. It was definitely effective, especially when the Suns had guys knocking down more 3's than they would in practice. But if you're going to make a video about the pick and roll, why wouldn't you show some plays with actual picks?

Your post was a good idea. But the videos were made by Denver and Phoenix fans. 'Nuff said. If you want to analyze pick and roll, look at video of the Utah Jazz.

[will_spurs]

Your post was a good idea. But the videos were made by Denver and Phoenix fans. 'Nuff said. If you want to analyze pick and roll, look at video of the Utah Jazz.

You actually provided the kind of commentary I was looking for (in the first part of your post), and wish you had provided some more links. I posted the 2 videos because they had the advantage of showcasing the Spurs, once on offense and once on defense. I am not aware of any video like this from the Spurs point of view but maybe they exist.

As for the pick & roll, indeed in the first video it's mostly Nash creating with a guy slashing here and there, so the pick & roll part in the video title can be misleading, but there are a few real ones in there too. But I posted it more because it showed some glaring issues with the Spurs defense, a component that has been sorely lacking since the last championship run.

I also agree that most pick & rolls are rather "vague", most of the time it's one player slashing through the paint or at the top of the key with no body contact to speak of, sometimes it's about corralling (?) the defender, etc.

[Velo]

Also, Collapse/Reset Perimeter defense after a pick n' roll seems lacking. Tim used to be really good at hedging a player out past the 3pt line. Nowadays it seems almost token. It's probably related to his knees not what they were before. Also not pictured is ball rotation during a double team on the posts. Back during the '03 run the rotation was totally spot on and when the defense had to collapse, if they had to double team. The Spurs were able to recover wonderfully even though the may have had a mismatch.
These are all parts of defense that used to be really good and now are placed on the back burner. Tiago is a great defense guy. Hopefully he'll adjust quick to the NBA game and take Tim's place pushing the roller out past the 3.

[Brazil]

Back to the first video. I watched most of it, laughed a little, and shut it down. It is supposed to be showing the Suns' "lethal pick and roll attack". I'm not sure that I saw a single pick being set on any of those plays. What I saw was Nash creating, good ball movement, and guys knocking down their shots. It was definitely effective, especially when the Suns had guys knocking down more 3's than they would in practice. But if you're going to make a video about the pick and roll, why wouldn't you show some plays with actual picks?



+1 it seems everybody is seeing pick & roll everywhere. Most of the vid is about Nash creating offensive using team mates body. If this vid is only about pick & roll I suppose 90% of nba games are just pick & roll offense with 10% being half court shoots and alley hoops.

[will_spurs]

If this vid is only about pick & roll I suppose 90% of nba games are just pick & roll offense with 10% being half court shoots and alley hoops.

Officially it's about 20% of plays in the NBA (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_and_roll) but obviously more for the Suns in particular. I wonder how pick & roll is called (statistically speaking).

But in any case I'd rather we discuss what we can learn from these videos about the Spurs offense and defense last year (the Denver game was really close to the playoffs). And link to more video analysis of the same kind.

[ceperez]

The Spurs offense seems to be predicated on the defense reacting and taking advantage of that commitment.

However, when teams don't commit (or sometimes play zone defense), then I've noticed the Spurs offense bogs down. That's why guys like Parker and good 3 point shooters with range are requirements for the Spurs offense.

Sometime you have to chuck those long range balls like what Barry used to do or have Parker force the issue and have the defense react to the penetration.

Lately, Parker's penetration has been stymied by lengthy athletic big men so what's left is the 3 point option which I hope was addressed by the newbies (Anderson and Neal).

[polandprzem]

Basketball changed a bit and I think many plays are now pick and roll situations more then real picks.
It does not matter much - it depends on what team wants to play. You can fake a pick and take advantage of it as soon as possible.
That's not being predictable and being more creative

[GSH]

Basketball changed a bit and I think many plays are now pick and roll situations more then real picks.
It does not matter much - it depends on what team wants to play. You can fake a pick and take advantage of it as soon as possible.
That's not being predictable and being more creative


What you are describing, and what the Suns are running, requires an athletic big man like Amare who can take the ball 8-10 feet out, take one step, and elevate to the basket. That wasn't Tim's game 10 years ago, and it sure isn't his game now. Those fake picks don't cause the defense to switch, to get a mis-match. They also don't seal a defender and leave a clear lane to the basket. Nash and Amare may play a two man game at times, but that doesn't make it a pick and roll.

I just looked at the video again. There's one stretch in there with three plays in a row where nash drives it down underneath the basket and then kicks it out - twice to 3-point shooters, and once to a guy cutting in from the 3-point line. Nothing to do with pick and roll.

All I was saying is that if you were putting together a video about the Suns' lethal pick and roll, and those were the only examples you could find, maybe it's because they really don't run a pick and roll offense that much. Which they don't.

The other thing that's kind of ironic about the video of the Spurs vs Denver's defense is that I think the Spurs shot 5-9, plus drew a couple of whistles. The Nuggets make some good defensive plays, and the Spurs make some bonehead moves on offense. But overall they're 55% from the floor on the plays shown. I think that's a good example for the upcoming season. Sometimes things fell worse than they really are. They're still doing a lot of good stuff out there, or they wouldn't be winning 50+ every year.



However, when teams don't commit (or sometimes play zone defense), then I've noticed the Spurs offense bogs down. That's why guys like Parker and good 3 point shooters with range are requirements for the Spurs offense.

Sometime you have to chuck those long range balls like what Barry used to do or have Parker force the issue and have the defense react to the penetration.

Lately, Parker's penetration has been stymied by lengthy athletic big men so what's left is the 3 point option which I hope was addressed by the newbies (Anderson and Neal).

+1 to all of that. Parker has trouble breaking down a good zone. He's one of the better point guards in the league, but the ones that are better have one thing in common - they are stronger. Without some consistent 3-point shooting, it's a problem.