Mosque near Ground Zero - Thoughts?

[Winehole23]

Is there any real writing to make this truthful?It's not really freedom of conscience if you're not free not to believe.

[Ignignokt]

Good quote. I like this. So what the imam said about the US having a role in the 911 attacks doesn't really matter either. (unless he commits a crime)

pretty much. We're not Britian.

[Ignignokt]

so , they're free to practice their religion.......in the dark basements of their homes.

I didn't know my personal condemnation of Islam has driven muslims to their basements. :lmao

Man, just let gtown fight the war on terror on his own. He's powerful!

[Drachen]

pretty much. We're not britian.

lol

[Ignignokt]

It does add to the validity that his building the mosque near ground zero is being done as an abrasive act.

[clambake]

I didn't know my personal condemnation of Islam has driven muslims to their basements. :lmao

thats where they plot their attacks and build their bombs.

[ElNono]

Please comeback with the correct argument, i'm not advocating banning them from building mosques near ground zero.

DarrinS is.

What *is* your argument? What is that 80% of the argument we're missing here?


Also, please reread the constitution, the constitution allows us to worship freely, it does not force us to be tolerant.

I agree that the constitution doesn't force us to be tolerant.
However, discriminating based on religion (as has been argued in this case) goes straight against the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment, and it's affirmation through case history up to this point in time.

[TeyshaBlue]

No.

If the context of tolerance is to not condemn any practice as a private citizen.

Ok. So freedom of religion implies tolerance of differing religions. That work for you?

[TeyshaBlue]

It does add to the validity that his building the mosque near ground zero is being done as an abrasive act.

Or is being perceived as an abrasive act.

[Ignignokt]

thats where they plot their attacks and build their bombs.

Well, that wouldn't be worship could it? Atleast if worship violates another individuals right to exist.

[ElNono]

The difference between tolerance and freedom of worship is that you're free to express your dislike for any religion. However, acting to prevent the religious act is what gets you in trouble.

[Drachen]

It does add to the validity that his building the mosque near ground zero is being done as an abrasive act.

Ok, I will definitely give you that. I don't know the motivations of those who are building this Community Center, but I can see how your point of view can be taken.

However it doesn't really matter now does it.

[Ignignokt]

Ok. So freedom of religion implies tolerance of differing religions. That work for you?

No, that's retarded. In that case we'd throw all the militant secular atheist in jail.

[TeyshaBlue]

The difference between tolerance and freedom of worship is that you're free to express your dislike for any religion. However, acting to prevent the religious act is what gets you in trouble.

Fair enough.

I was couching tolerance in terms of not beating down people who practice a differing religion.

[clambake]

i would think you could appreciate there being a place for all the rag heads.

easier to keep an eye on.

[Ignignokt]

Ok, I will definitely give you that. I don't know the motivations of those who are building this Community Center, but I can see how your point of view can be taken.

However it doesn't really matter now does it.


Ofcourse it does, the battle on islamic terrorism is not only fought physically. The american public must condemn such acts, just like they would condemn Neo Nazis if they built their center near MLK's historic church.

[Nash2TimeMVp]

Ignignokt ur getting your ass kicked through so many angles just stfu and gtfo and kiss my ass brih

[clambake]

muslims are not nazis, g.

[Ignignokt]

i would think you could appreciate there being a place for all the rag heads.

easier to keep an eye on.

???

[LnGrrrR]

LOL@ bringing people together. You people defending this guy are straight up dumbasses and/or could careless about america and those who were killed there.

I will note that defending someone's right to build something in a place is not the same as defending that person's beliefs.

[ElNono]

Ofcourse it does, the battle on islamic terrorism is not only fought physically. The american public must condemn such acts, just like they would condemn Neo Nazis if they built their center near MLK's historic church.

So we should start criminalizing thought crimes?

Last I checked, Muslims are not Nazis...

[Ignignokt]

muslims are not nazis, g.

Neo Nazis are not nazis, technically. My point wasn't to say that both groups are the same.

[Ignignokt]

So we should start criminalizing thought crimes?

Last I checked, Muslims are not Nazis...

Oh god, does condemning = legislating? I guess you haven't been following my argument.

[Ignignokt]

Ignignokt ur getting your ass kicked through so many angles just stfu and gtfo and kiss my ass brih

lick my balls brih

[clambake]

Neo Nazis are not nazis, technically. My point wasn't to say that both groups are the same.

ok. i get it. you feel like it's a punch in the face.

why does bloomberg support it?

[ElNono]

Plenty of Muslims coexist with all religious kinds here in the US, including Jews, especially in NYC... Obviously, not all are extremists...

[ElNono]

Oh god, does condemning = legislating? I guess you haven't been following my argument.

Why would you condemn somebody for their religious belief?

[Ignignokt]

ok. i get it. you feel like it's a punch in the face.

why does bloomberg support it?

I don't give a shit about that chump.

I wouldn't ask you why Sarah Palin opposes it.. :lol

[Ignignokt]

Why would you condemn somebody for their religious belief?

Why do we condemn Fred Phelps?

[LnGrrrR]

Ofcourse it does, the battle on islamic terrorism is not only fought physically. The american public must condemn such acts, just like they would condemn Neo Nazis if they built their center near MLK's historic church.

Neo Nazis though, by self-admission, are intolerant racists. Are you arguing that all Muslims are terrorists? If not, your argument doesn't make much sense.

If you want to condemn the person building this/organizing this, etc, ok, I can see that if he's said dumb things. But being against the very idea of a mosque there is silly, in my eyes.

[TeyshaBlue]

Why do we condemn Fred Phelps?

Because he's an intolerant asshole.

[Drachen]

Because he's an intolerant asshole.

However, we don't ban the baptists from building a church near the saint, heat, pegasus, etc. because of Fred Phelps' beliefs.

[Ignignokt]

Because he's an intolerant asshole.

Thank you, that's a reason why I would condemn a religous belief, and not individuals.

A muslim can choose not to follow all the basic tenets of his belief. I don't condemn him personally.

[ElNono]

Why do we condemn Fred Phelps?

You do?

As long as he's not breaking any laws, I really don't give a fuck what he does or says.

[Ignignokt]

However, we don't ban the baptists from building a church near the saint, heat, pegasus, etc. because of Fred Phelps' beliefs.

Neither do I cool guy for the 100th time.

[ElNono]

Thank you, that's a reason why I would condemn a religous belief, and not individuals.

A muslim can choose not to follow all the basic tenets of his belief. I don't condemn him personally.

What does that has to do with building a Mosque near Ground Zero?

[Drachen]

Neither do I cool guy for the 100th time.

So then you are ok with muslims building this community center a few blocks away from ground zero?

BTW gotta go to class.
I do have to say that outside of pages 3 or 4, this was actually a decent conversation. Cheers

[Ignignokt]

Neo Nazis though, by self-admission, are intolerant racists. Are you arguing that all Muslims are terrorists? If not, your argument doesn't make much sense.

If you want to condemn the person building this/organizing this, etc, ok, I can see that if he's said dumb things. But being against the very idea of a mosque there is silly, in my eyes.

Do all muslims have to be terrorist, if you're only condemning Neo Nazis for simply having stupid beliefs but require Muslims to outdo them in that regard, then i see an inconsistency.

It's not because muslims are terrorist, but a majority of muslims are intolerant. They can be nice to you in public, but a good enough of the arabic world outside liberal democracies are living in the middle ages ideologically.

[TeyshaBlue]

Thank you, that's a reason why I would condemn a religous belief, and not individuals.

A muslim can choose not to follow all the basic tenets of his belief. I don't condemn him personally.

Agreed. I would castigate the individual, not the religion. Phelps perverts the teaching of Christianity to suit his own twisted world-view. Same can be said of a Muslim extremist. If Phelps were building a "Church" down the street, I'd probably go ballistic. That being said, are you saying this particular Iman is the same as Fred Phelps?

[Ignignokt]

So then you are ok with muslims building this community center a few blocks away from ground zero?

BTW gotta go to class.
I do have to say that outside of pages 3 or 4, this was actually a decent conversation. Cheers

No, i'm not ok with it.

Do you see a distinction?

I may not be ok with it, but i'm not going to ban them from it.

That's like saying you're ok with anti homosexual literature because the constitution protects it.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's not because muslims are terrorist, but a majority of muslims are intolerant.

Really? Can you back that up?

[TeyshaBlue]

No, i'm not ok with it.

Do you see a distinction?

I may not be ok with it, but i'm not going to ban them from it.

That's like saying you're ok with anti homosexual literature because the constitution protects it.

Ok, I'm finally grokking your position. We aint as far apart as I thought.:toast

[Ignignokt]

What does that has to do with building a Mosque near Ground Zero?

cuz i was answering your question, asshole.

I'm also not tolerant of people with short memories.

Why would you condemn somebody for their religious belief?

[beachwood]

Opponents of this will always express their concern "on behalf" of the 9/11 victims' families, because those opponents need the context of a monumental historical tragedy to shadow their own prejudice.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ignignokt]

Really? Can you back that up?

Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Somalia, Chechnya. And some lesser majorities in more secular countries like Iraq and Turkey.

[Ignignokt]

Agreed. I would castigate the individual, not the religion. Phelps perverts the teaching of Christianity to suit his own twisted world-view. Same can be said of a Muslim extremist. If Phelps were building a "Church" down the street, I'd probably go ballistic. That being said, are you saying this particular Iman is the same as Fred Phelps?

Bad question.

[ElNono]

cuz i was answering your question, asshole.
I'm also not tolerant of people with short memories.

No you were not. You never actually answered that question, you simply asked another question in response.

So, again, what *IS* your argument?

[ElNono]

Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Somalia, Chechnya. And some lesser majorities in more secular countries like Iraq and Turkey.

What percentage of all Muslims that accounts for?

[Ignignokt]

What percentage of all Muslims that accounts for?

indonesia has the largest muslim population of all the countries.. I'd say quite a majority with out including the epicenter of Islam, and Iran.

[Ignignokt]

No you were not. You never actually answered that question, you simply asked another question in response.

So, again, what *IS* your argument?

Reread my posts. I'm awnsering more than 3 different questions from different posters.

Shit, you can look in this page and find my position.. on the mosque at least.


No, i'm not ok with it.

Do you see a distinction?

I may not be ok with it, but i'm not going to ban them from it.

That's like saying you're ok with anti homosexual literature because the constitution protects it.

[ElNono]

indonesia has the largest muslim population of all the countries.. I'd say quite a majority with out including the epicenter of Islam, and Iran.

You mean the Indonesia that just opened a $27 million Christian mega church that seats 4,500 in Jakarta last month?

I wouldn't want you to be exaggerating or anything...

[ElNono]

Reread my posts. I'm awnsering more than 3 different questions from different posters.

Shit, you can look in this page and find my position.. on the mosque at least.

Then there is no argument. They're simply building a mosque in terrain they own. I don't know what you find abrasive about it.

[Ignignokt]

You mean the Indonesia that just opened a $27 million Christian mega church that seats 4,500 in Jakarta last month?

I wouldn't want you to be exaggerating or anything...

Did the govt open the church?

Or did private citizens?

I don't see how that proves your point. Indonesia is a secular state not a muslim state. Some of it's muslim citizens have been perpetrating brutal crimes there against humanity and committing genocide.

You can also google and find deaths, murders, and assinations occuring in that country by muslims. Btw.. Indonesia is both a muslim and chrisitan inhabited country but happens to hold the largest muslim population in the world.

[Ignignokt]

Then there is no argument. They're simply building a mosque in terrain they own. I don't know what you find abrasive about it.

Who are you to declare there is no argument. Nor do i find property rights abrasive. You didn't read my argument, nor do you show any effort to understand it. Please study the english language more, otherwise I refuse to discuss these matters with people who can't track their own arguments much less make out others.

[ElNono]

Did the govt open the church?
Or did private citizens?
I don't see how that proves your point.

I'm actually countering a point you never proved to begin with.
Yes, Indonesia has the most Muslims. Are the majority intolerant?
Not necessarily.


You can also google and find deaths, murders, and assinations occuring in that country by muslims. Btw.. Indonesia is both a muslim and chrisitan inhabited country but happens to hold the largest muslim population in the world.

Given that the vast majority of their population is Muslim, I would expect the majority of the crime being carried out by Muslims. Correlation does not imply causation.

Ultimately, if what you're trying to express is that you distrust Muslims because, in your view, the majority of them are intolerant, then that's fine.
You're certainly entitled to that.

I'm also entitled to tell you that said view is based squarely on prejudice.

[Nash2TimeMVp]

lol elnono pwn3d gtwon spur pretty bad. what difference does it make if it was opened by the government or private citzens

[ElNono]

Who are you to declare there is no argument. Nor do i find property rights abrasive. You didn't read my argument, nor do you show any effort to understand it. Please study the english language more, otherwise I refuse to discuss these matters with people who can't track their own arguments much less make out others.

I don't find anybody else complaining about my English. Maybe you're the one with the reading comprehension problems.

You don't have to discuss anything with me. I opened the thread asking for thoughts about the construction of a Mosque near Ground Zero. If you want to start a thread about your own prejudices on Muslim people, by all means go ahead.

[Ignignokt]

lol elnono pwn3d gtwon spur pretty bad. what difference does it make if it was opened by the government or private citzens

What difference does it make that the church was opened at all, i didn't bring it up he did.

lol asslicker.

[ElNono]

What difference does it make that the church was opened at all, i didn't bring it up he did.

lol asslicker.

lol, who's that troll and why is he stalking you gTown? :lol

[Ignignokt]

I'm actually countering a point you never proved to begin with.
Yes, Indonesia has the most Muslims. Are the majority intolerant?
Not necessarily.



Given that the vast majority of their population is Muslim, I would expect the majority of the crime being carried out by Muslims. Correlation does not imply causation.

Ultimately, if what you're trying to express is that you distrust Muslims because, in your view, the majority of them are intolerant, then that's fine.
You're certainly entitled to that.

I'm also entitled to tell you that said view is based squarely on prejudice.

What does that have to do with it. I'm not talking about looting theft, or defrauding, I'm talking about religous genocide, war, and killing of innocent school girls.

And the point that Muslims in Indonesia aren't tolerant because their secular govt allowed a church to be opened is retarded, that was your contention.

You can be intolerant and yet not have to commit a criminal act, and there are intolerant people in nations where there is tolerance.

I don't see how you cannot grasp the fact.

But when as a whole a culture of Islam beheads adulterers, gays, and sexual mischevieants, I don't know how you can conclude that it's only a small percentage of them.

[Ignignokt]

lol, who's that troll and why is he stalking you gTown? :lol

I don't know dude, but he's kissing your ass hardcore, lol. It's not your fault, he's just an asslicker proven by the fact he kisses ass and he request it aswell. :lol

Ignore him.

[Nash2TimeMVp]

I don't know dude, but he's kissing your ass hardcore, lol. It's not your fault, he's just an asslicker proven by the fact he kisses ass and he request it aswell. :lol

Ignore him.
loooool i don't stalk gtwon i stalk dumbasses and gtwon happens to be a dumbass. but don't get mad gtwon your a moron which nobody agrees with and this has been stated numerous times in this thread.

the reason elnono brought up the church in indonesia is because you said indonesia was an intolerant muslim country yet they allowed a 405405454545 dollar church to open up

[Ignignokt]

loooool i don't stalk gtwon i stalk dumbasses and gtwon happens to be a dumbass. but don't get mad gtwon your a moron which nobody agrees with and this has been stated numerous times in this thread.

the reason elnono brought up the church in indonesia is because you said indonesia was an intolerant muslim country yet they allowed a 405405454545 dollar church to open up

LOL, he's trying to be taken seriously.

Nash2TIMEHamsterLodger!! lololol x10000000

[Nash2TimeMVp]

LOL, he's trying to be taken seriously.

Nash2TIMEHamsterLodger!! lololol x10000000
lol i learn from the best

[ElNono]

What does that have to do with it. I'm not talking about looting theft, or defrauding, I'm talking about religous genocide, war, and killing of innocent school girls.

Are those the majority of their crimes? I mean, I can see where they could have a minorities of religious extremists. But because of that paint all of them intolerant? What actual proof do you have of this?

Ultimately, it can't be that bad, since they actually have less deaths per 1000 than we do.


And the point that Muslims in Indonesia aren't tolerant because their secular govt allowed a church to be opened is retarded, that was your contention.

No, you're contending that the majority of them not tolerant, but have nothing to show for it.
I contend that there's evidence to the contrary. An intolerant country would simply not tolerate a massive temple from another religion.


You can be intolerant and yet not have to commit a criminal act, and there are intolerant people in nations where there is tolerance.

Sure. But you have to demonstrate that they're indeed intolerant. I mean, I could just as easily claim that the vast majority of americans are intolerant. That I say it doesn't make it true.


But when as a whole a culture of Islam beheads adulterers, gays, and sexual mischevieants, I don't know how you can conclude that it's only a small percentage of them.

The majority do? You know, this Mosque is going to be built in the US. US law applies. Tell me, how many US muslims "beheads adulterers, gays, and sexual mischevieants"?

[Ignignokt]

lol i learn from the best

i gather that's what "part of the mookie crew" means. You learned from Rita on how to take 4 dicks in the asshole.

[Nash2TimeMVp]

i gather that's what "part of the mookie crew" means. You learned from Rita on how to take 4 dicks in the asshole.
hhahaahah you're so obsessd you stopped giving el nono rebuttals and only responding to me hahaha you're obsesed/mad i'm in your head hahaha you stink

[Ignignokt]

Are those the majority of their crimes? I mean, I can see where they could have a minorities of religious extremists. But because of that paint all of them intolerant? What actual proof do you have of this?

Ultimately, it can't be that bad, since they actually have less deaths per 1000 than we do.



No, you're contending that the majority of them not tolerant, but have nothing to show for it.
I contend that there's evidence to the contrary. An intolerant country would simply not tolerate a massive temple from another religion.



Sure. But you have to demonstrate that they're indeed intolerant. I mean, I could just as easily claim that the vast majority of americans are intolerant. That I say it doesn't make it true.



The majority do? You know, this Mosque is going to be built in the US. US law applies. Tell me, how many US muslims "beheads adulterers, gays, and sexual mischevieants"?



You don't get it. A secular country's actions does not indicate anything about it's muslim's world viewpoint, specifically because there are other faiths.

That's like saying that americans can't be racist because we have black history month.

Now, about the mosque.. I don't like it's inception not because of the intolerance of Islam, but because of the abrasivenes of the act to build it near ground zero.

Now about the intolerance and hate of the majority of muslims here are nice factoids..

Poll of Palestinians, Apr 2008. 51 percent of Palestinians support killing Jewish civilians. 65 percent support in Gaza.
Pew survey, May 2003, reported in International Herald Tribune, June 3, 2003 (here and here).
The majority in Morocco, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Kuwait, Lebanon, Indonesia and Pakistan want to end the state of Israel.
What the World Thinks in 2002 - survey, December 4, 2002
The majority of Lebanese support suicide bombing.
The majority of Nigerians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
The majority of Bangladeshis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
47 percent of Jordanians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
43 percent of Pakistanis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
A Year After Iraq War - survey, March 16, 2004
The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing of Jews.
The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing of Jews.
The majority who expressed an opinion in Pakistan support suicide bombing of Jews.
Supporting the killing of American and western civilians
The majority of Palestinians support the Sept 11th killings.
Palestinians dance in the streets on 9/11.
It was furiously claimed that these were just a small minority. But opinion polls showed this was not true. The majority of Palestinians supported 9/11.
73% of Palestinians supported suicide attacks against USA in Nov. 2000 poll
http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

[Ignignokt]

hhahaahah you're so obsessd you stopped giving el nono rebuttals and only responding to me hahaha you're obsesed/mad i'm in your head hahaha you stink

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[z0sa]

This is a good thing. It fantastically shows America's "real" values concerning freedom and tolerance. In this day and age of occupation, invasion, and mass troop movements, it's good to see there's still a bit of sanity left.

[ElNono]

You don't get it. A secular country's actions does not indicate anything about it's muslim's world viewpoint, specifically because there are other faiths.

This make no sense. What other tangible way we have to know about "it's muslim's world viewpoint"? We just make it up as we go?


That's like saying that americans can't be racist because we have black history month.

Well, it definitely tells me that while there might be a minority that is racist, the vast majority doesn't have that problem. Otherwise, there would be no black history month.


Now, about the mosque.. I don't like it's inception not because of the intolerance of Islam, but because of the abrasivenes of the act to build it near ground zero.

That's where the land they own is. What distance would make it not abrasive?
Is there a magic number?


Now about the intolerance and hate of the majority of muslims here are nice factoids..
http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

Obviously, a lot of those countries, especially in the middle east, don't like Israel one bit and as accessory the US (since we basically side with them always). That said, you couldn't possibly say that's representative of the majority of Muslims. I mean, Indonesia has protested the state of Israel from the get go. Doesn't mean they send strapped bombers there. Countries like Egypt even help Israel with the Gaza blockade. Turkey has a huge colony of Israelis.

Again, if your main gripe with Muslims is their intolerance. How being intolerant yourself makes you any better than them?

[Ignignokt]

This make no sense. What other tangible way we have to know about "it's muslim's world viewpoint"? We just make it up as we go?


I just gave you a batch of oppinion polling on the muslim world by country, that would be more accurate than grading their viewpoint by some secular govt.

[ElNono]

I just gave you a batch of oppinion polling on the muslim world by country, that would be more accurate than grading their viewpoint by some secular govt.

Which doesn't support your claim, as I answered on that post.

And, again, how being intolerant of them make you any better/different than them?

[Ignignokt]

Which doesn't support your claim, as I answered on that post.

And, again, how being intolerant of them make you any better/different than them?

I don't tolerate that which is evil and leads to destruction. Use your mind, do you think tolerating evil is better than not tolerating evil?

[Ignignokt]

In those surveys also showed majorities in muslim populations supporting killing innocent civilians. I think the findings do support my case.

[ElNono]

I don't tolerate that which is evil and leads to destruction. Use your mind, do you think tolerating evil is better than not tolerating evil?

I simply don't agree that being Muslim and being evil amount to the same thing. I think evil people are evil regardless of their religious beliefs.

We obviously won't agree on this.

[ElNono]

In those surveys also showed majorities in muslim populations supporting killing innocent civilians. I think the findings do support my case.

Not the vast majority of muslims though.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, there was already a mosque around there anyway.

[DMX7]

They're doing it just to piss off the 9/11 victims and their families... oh, and Ignignokt.

[Drachen]

Iggy,
Using that same level of proof, a vast majority of Americans are evil. I remember in 2001 (and since) many people saying that we just need to go over there with a few of our nukes and just turn the entire desert in that region to glass. Don't you think that nuking an entire region of the world would knock out a few innocent civilians?

So by your logic, because there were Americans advocating the murder of innocent civilians . . . All Americans are evil and should not be trusted. It's abrasive to me when an American tries to build a house near mine, much less a tower ON ground zero.

[Oh, Gee!!]

They should build a starbucks instead. less controversy, more profit.

[Ignignokt]

Iggy,
Using that same level of proof, a vast majority of Americans are evil. I remember in 2001 (and since) many people saying that we just need to go over there with a few of our nukes and just turn the entire desert in that region to glass. Don't you think that nuking an entire region of the world would knock out a few innocent civilians?

So by your logic, because there were Americans advocating the murder of innocent civilians . . . All Americans are evil and should not be trusted. It's abrasive to me when an American tries to build a house near mine, much less a tower ON ground zero.

link?

[Drachen]

I am not Johnny Mnemonic, I cannot download the URL of a memory in my brain to your computer screen. Sorry.

[EmptyMan]

The Muslims here can't just respect an already established culture's personal space in relation to such a horrible recent tragedy? Pretty lame imo.

Can't say they don't have the right, but this is a dick move.

[LnGrrrR]

I am not Johnny Mnemonic, I cannot download the URL of a memory in my brain to your computer screen. Sorry.

:lmao

Good one.

[ChumpDumper]

The Muslims here can't just respect an already established culture's personal space in relation to such a horrible recent tragedy? Pretty lame imo.

Can't say they don't have the right, but this is a dick move.How much "personal space" does the "established culture" need?