What about flouride?

[Parker2112]

Thanks, Infowars!

Q3y8uwtxrHo

7hW0_UMtsb4

5NFOnQQMnx4

[ChumpDumper]

Could you give me the Cliff's Notes version of this?

Thanks in advance.

[Parker2112]

I would actually buy this from a policy standpoint. It makes sense, for both policy makers and corps, to dilute poisonous waste products like flouride (see vid #3) to safe levels spread over the water supply nationwide rather than create polluted hot spots and ensuing lawsuits that stifle an entire industry and ultimately the national economy.

I confirmed a couple of things about this with a friend who works at a water plant in east texas...it made it all the more convincing actually.

evidently the opposition to flouridation is coming from many professionals in different fields so no need to throw up the conspiracy cloud on this issue. it is a debatable issue...the harder you try to squash something like this the harder the pushback. although i know its coming. its a natural reaction Im learning...because people cant believe that they aren't beyond getting lied to and getting fooled on important issues like this. people need to think that they are much to smart for trhat, so they continue to buy the company/govt line.

people just like...

[ChumpDumper]

It's in my toothpaste.

Should I be worried?

[Parker2112]

Could you give me the Cliff's Notes version of this?

Thanks in advance.

flouride is a toxic byproduct from the aluminum industry that is loaded from actual plants into tanker trucks, and instead of being hauled to toxic waste sites, its sent to water plants in 64% of our communities nationwide, and dumped into the water supply under the guise of healthier teeth.

94% of Western Europe has outlawed the flouridation of drinking water, and the teeth in their kids' heads are just as healthy as ours.

the author/interview subject here claims that the flouridation is a leftover practice secured by scientist advocates that were also involved in advocating asbestos, manhattan project, and ethynol.

Some communities have outlawed the use of of flouride recently, and there is a growing tide of critics, even in the EPA, however some cited scientists have lost their careers over the criticism




EPA UNIONS CALL FOR NATIONWIDE MORATORIUM ON FLUORIDATION, CONGRESSIONAL HEARING ON ADVERSE EFFECTS, YOUTH CANCER COVER UP WASHINGTON, DC, August 30, 2005 --/WORLD-WIRE/-- Eleven EPA employee unions representing over 7000 environmental and public health professionals of the Civil Service have called for a moratorium on drinking water fluoridation programs across the country, and have asked EPA management to recognize fluoride as posing a serious risk of causing cancer in people. The unions acted following revelations of an apparent cover-up of evidence from Harvard School of Dental Medicine linking fluoridation with elevated risk of a fatal bone cancer in young boys.


Worth the watch.

[Parker2112]

It's in my toothpaste.

Should I be worried?

the video does make the distinction between pharmaceutical (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7HPIA&&sa=X&ei=_6lbTIvXKML38Aai54X9Ag&ved=0CCUQBSgA&q=pharmaceutical&spell=1) grade and toxic waste being hauled in a tanker truck. toothpaste uses the former, water supply gets the toxic stuff. so maybe not.

I forgot to mention: it cites the first know use of flouride in a drinking water supply as being in Nazi Germany death camps. sensationalism? roll the bones.

[Parker2112]

my throat sort of burns now...

[Parker2112]

Go here for more info.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

They had this to say about chumps toothpaste:
You say that fluoride works topically. Does this mean that you promote the use of fluoridated toothpaste? [/URL]
While the use of fluoridated toothpaste has certain benefits over water and salt fluoridation (e.g. the individual is given a choice; the fluoride does not [URL="http://www.fluoridealert.org/f-sources.htm"]contaminate the food supply (http://www.fluoridealert.org/faqs.htm#top); and the fluoride is applied to the teeth in a more targeted manner); it also presents a number of risks as well. For example:

Children usually swallow (http://www.fluoridealert.org/f-concentrations.data.htm) a lot of toothpaste when brushing their teeth, and therefore, if they are using a fluoridated toothpaste they may ingest a lot of fluoride. (For some children, fluoride toothpaste represents the largest daily source (http://www.fluoridealert.org/f-concentrations.data.htm) of ingested fluoride.) As noted in a recent review:
"Virtually all authors have noted that some children could ingest more fluoride from dentrifice alone (http://www.fluoridealert.org/f-concentrations.data.htm) than is recommended as a total daily fluoride ingestion" (Levy 1999).


Swallowing toothpaste at a young age is one of the major risk factors for the development of dental fluorosis (http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm) - a disfiguring condition that can have damaging effects on a child's appearance and self-esteem.


Even if one doesn't actually swallow the fluoride, the fluoride may make it through the gum membrane and enter the bloodstream - thus contributing to a person's systemic exposure to fluoride.
Among hypersensitive individuals, fluoride toothpaste may cause or aggravate dermatitis (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/allergy/topical.html) (skin rash, usually near the mouth) or stomatitis (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/allergy/topical.html) (mouth ulcers, "canker sores"). If you have dermatitis near the mouth (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/allergy/mallette-1983.html), consider trying a non-fluoride toothpaste for 2-3 weeks and see if your condition improves. (If it does, please let us know ([email protected]).)
Recent research (http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=2&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&p=1&S1=5807541&OS=5807541&RS=5807541) from the pharmaceutical company Sepracor (http://www.sepracor.com/) indicates that fluoridated toothpaste may cause or contribute to periodontal bone loss. This finding is serious because periodontal bone loss is the #1 cause of tooth loss among US adults. According to the scientists at Sepracor who conducted the study: (http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=2&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&p=1&S1=5807541&OS=5807541&RS=5807541)


"We have found that fluoride, in the concentration range in which it is employed for the prevention of dental caries, stimulates the production of prostaglandins and thereby exacerbates the inflammatory response in gingivitis and periodontitis.... Thus, the inclusion of fluoride in toothpastes and mouthwashes for the purpose of inhibiting the development of caries [cavities] may, at the same time, accelerate the process of chronic, destructive periodontitis."


The concentrations of fluoride used in toothpaste are very high (1,00o-1,500 ppm). Considering the fact that fluoride is a suspected mutagen (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/cancer/mutagen.html), and that many mutagens are also carcinogens (i.e. they cause cancer), there is some concern that fluoridated toothpaste may cause or contribute tooral cancer (http://www.fluoridealert.org/lancet-ntp.htm).
There are safer alternatives (http://www.fluoridealert.org/news/334.html) for protecting teeth than using a highly toxic compound like fluoride. In addition to non-fluoridated toothpastes, one alternative is xylitol (http://www.slweb.org/bibliography.html#alternatives), a natural sugar that is now being widely used in oral health programs throughout Scandinavia. Xylitol - which can be applied to the teeth via mints, gum, and toothpaste - has been found to be very effective in preventing tooth decay, and may even help remineralize teeth as well. A healthy diet, however, will always be the most important tool in the fight against tooth decay.

[Parker2112]

http://www.fluoridealert.org/images/fluorosis/dental10.jpg

flouride in the water can do this

[ChumpDumper]

Isn't the groundwater of most of the western US and the much of country of India (among other places worldwide) naturally fluoridated to higher levels than recommended for dental health?

Shouldn't cancer levels be measurably higher in these areas that use that water for drinking?

Or is it just different fluoride?

[Parker2112]

Isn't the groundwater of most of the western US and the much of country of India (among other places worldwide) naturally fluoridated to higher levels than recommended for dental health?

Shouldn't cancer levels be measurably higher in these areas that use that water for drinking?

Or is it just different fluoride?

there are two types...sodium flouride is whats being added...Im not sure what the naturally occurring flouride is, but it is different

[Parker2112]

naturally occurring is calcium flouride

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/question03.html :discusses the difference


Silicofluorides never occur naturally in nature, and they are 85 times more toxic than natural occurring calcium fluoride.

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/conclusion.html : concludes that flouridation is shite.

[ChumpDumper]

OK, so how many cancer cases have been attributed to fluoridated water?

[Parker2112]

I dont know, honestly it sounds like only pussies are affected.

or little babies.

NEW ZEALAND: Fluoride levels 'too high' for bottle fed babies. "... Infants fully formula-fed on formulae prepared with optimally fluoridated water (0.7-1.0 mg/L) have a high probability of exceeding the UL [upper level of intake] for fluoride and are at increased risk of dental fluorosis." -From abstract of June 2 paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20545827); see also news article (http://www2.fluoridealert.org/Alert/New-Zealand/Fluoride-levels-too-high-for-bottle-fed-babies).
Note from FAN: In the U.S., 0.7 - 1.2 mg/L (mg/L = ppm) is the "optimal" level of fluoride in fluoridation schemes. Levels up to 4 ppm of fluoride are legal under U.S. EPA drinking water standards for contaminants.

[Parker2112]

It seems like the real danger is flourosis for kids. here is more info on why not to flouridate:
http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm

[Parker2112]

Idaho: Sandpoint drops fluoride from water.
"...The city council voted 4-2 this week to quit adding fluoride to the municipal water system, which serves communities from Kootenai to Dover, including Sandpoint...." July 24, Bonner County Daily Bee (http://www.fluoridealert.org/The%20city%20council%20voted%204-2%20this%20week%20to%20quit%20adding%20fluoride%20 to%20the%20municipal%20water%20system,%20which%20s erves%20communities%20from%20Kootenai%20to%20Dover ,%20including%20Sandpoint.).

[ChumpDumper]

So how many pussy babies have been killed by fluoride?

I'm just trying to get down to brass tacks here.

[Parker2112]

the pussies tend to die off from other stuff, so I'm sure those stats are hard to find. I'd say a couple every month, but that's just off the top of the ol' spidey sense. but hell, the asthma probably would have immobilized them in no time anyway, with or without flouride.

Actually the danger is your kid winds up looking like post #9. and that case is mild

[Parker2112]

http://www.thehealthvine.net/Stainedteeth.jpg

it gets worse

[Parker2112]

here is a kid from jersey:
http://www.cent4dent.com/images/fluorosis/fluorosis4.jpg

[Parker2112]

fluorosis (flhttp://img.tfd.com/mosbycam/500094-fx1.gif·rōˑ·sis),
n problem caused by excessive or protracted ingestion of fluorine. Causes a mottled appearance of the teeth and in extreme cases, pitting in the deciduous and secondary teeth.

http://img.tfd.com/mosby/thumbs/500087-fx12.jpg

This one looks east asian

[Parker2112]

gotta love big gov in bed with big corps!!!

got toxic waste that needs dispersin'?

http://vistamountaindevelopment.com/images/Get%20er%20done.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

So how many kids end up like that from fluoride?

[johnsmith]

Worst..........thread...........ever.......

[boutons_deux]

For those who study this stuff, the motivation for fluoridation of water wasn't primarily for the benefits of citizens, but for the aluminum industry to cut the cost of disposing of a waste product by turning into profits.

Exactly like GMO frankenfood is not for the benefit of citizens but for, eg Monsanto, to sell more pesticide and enslave agriculture to it patented Round-Up ready seeds. That's turning out to benefit no one but Monsanto, while hurting farmers and people.

There's a very simple, but almost impossible, rule to follow:

IF MAN MADE IT, DON'T PUT IN YOUR MOUTH.

Without govt regulation and enforcement, citizens are exposed to the predations, fraud, and profoundly evil bullshit of corporations.

[Marcus Bryant]

It was only a matter of time.

[Marcus Bryant]

Fluoridation of the water supply is the penultimate threat to the one true America. The Illuminati, through their puppets in the UN, the US State Department, Federal Reserve, Schwinn, and SAWS have made their move to steal the precious bodily fluids of every true American. This must not stand.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ingesting fluoride in huge quantities has been proven to predispose individuals to world socialism, enjoying soccer, drinking European beer, and homosexuality.

[Parker2112]

Not so much of this...


Fluoridation of the water supply is the penultimate threat to the one true America. The Illuminati, through their puppets in the UN, the US State Department, Federal Reserve, Schwinn, and SAWS have made their move to steal the precious bodily fluids of every true American. This must not stand.

But More like...


From a policy standpoint, It makes sense, for both policy makers and corps, to dilute poisonous waste products like flouride (see vid #3) to safe levels spread over the water supply nationwide rather than create polluted hot spots and ensuing lawsuits that stifle an entire industry and ultimately the national economy.



And mostly..


gotta love big gov in bed with big corps!!!

got toxic waste that needs dispersin'?

http://vistamountaindevelopment.com/images/Get%20er%20done.jpg

[Parker2112]

It doesnt sound that damn threatening, right? Well true...at current levels, very little is seen in the way of side effects, other than flourosis. The other stuff is a bit overdramatic.

Its the bigger issue that needs addressing...like why we have this industrial waste product being dumped into our water when the science on both the benefits and the potential risks posed is disputed. And when you look at the origins of the practice, you find even more reason to doubt this practice.

So why do we do it? And why are more communities banning the practice? And why is there even a backlash when the practice comes under fire? Who has interests to protect here?

[Marcus Bryant]

They are out to get us!

[Bender]

in Dr. Strangelove, we learned that flouridation was a commie plot.

[Parker2112]

They are out to get us!

or are "they" just trying to keep the aluminum industry from being exposed to crippling, neverending civil action from those in and around the plants that would otherwise be dumping this waste into waste ponds in and around their facilities? And was this initially a means of diminishing the claims of workers who were exposed to the wastes daily and who devloped numerous lung diseases and cancers but couldn't collect because the science was concealed from public view, thus allowing them to continue dumping into the water, AND keeping sick, dying plant workers from recovering?

[Parker2112]

in Dr. Strangelove, we learned that flouridation was a commie plot.

never saw that. maybe that explains my resistance to chalk this up to silly conspiracy theory.

I understand the concept. But what you dismissive folks dont realize is that this issue is being discussed in city halls across the country, and it is being stopped because it is senseless.

so you can dispense it at safe levels. I buy that. But if it is hazardous beyond "safe" levels, what about when disaster strikes: flouride spill?

Then people are going to get sick, and start asking why we put the shit in the water in the first place. especially when they realize that other countries that dont flouridate enjoy the same levels of dental health as us.

[Bender]

I'm not being dismissive... personally, I don't want it added to my food or drink.

I can't watch any of the vids at work since I don't have sound.

[Parker2112]

I'm not being dismissive... personally, I don't want it added to my food or drink.

I can't watch any of the vids at work since I don't have sound.

They are worth the time if you get a chance. The guy in the videos is a former producer for the BBC, who begin an investigation on the job and wound up writing a book about the whole subject. He goes through a thorough history of the origins of flouridation and how the public was convinced that the process was beneficial.

http://www.amazon.com/Fluoride-Deception-Christopher-Bryson/dp/1583227008/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281112344&sr=8-1

I dont see it as the evil that Alex Jones does, but I do see the propogation of sketchy public health practices by a select few, paid by the aluminum industry, as reason for concern. And to that end, I think he uses the over-dramatic doomsday speak to rile up an otherwise sedate public and get them concerned enough to inform themselves on issues like these. Which is not a bad thing.

[balli]

I've been off of fluoride for about 3 months now. Fuck that shit. I'm buying spring water at the cost of $28 a month. I can feel my pineal gland de-calcifying as we speak.

[balli]

It's in my toothpaste.

Should I be worried?

The reason your squeezable toothpaste tube implores you to call poison control if you ingest any, isn't because of the mint flavoring. Fluoride is toxic if ingested and there is absolutely no reason we should be forced to put that shit all up in every cell in our bodies, rather than choosing to apply it topically on our teeth.

I don't know shit about Alex Jones. I don't know shit about the world of conspiracy theories. All I know is that there is absolutely no reason we should be dumping industrial pollutant into something that should be as pure as the public's drinking water and that if something smells like a fish, well, y'know, don't fucking trust it.

[Parker2112]

I've been off of fluoride for about 3 months now. Fuck that shit. I'm buying spring water at the cost of $28 a month. I can feel my pineal gland de-calcifying as we speak.

what prompted you? I have never even thought about doing something like that, until now I guess...do you feel any different?

[balli]

what prompted you? I have never even thought about doing something like that, until now I guess...do you feel any different?

I went about 90% vegan at the same time. Did a little research on fluoride and its history. I'm actually doing everything I can to get away from the modern containments America is poisoning with. Things like shampoo, soap, deodorant are all natural now. I'm treating to eat raw and organic as much as possible. Getting off the fluoride is just one step in that whole thing.

I'd truly say I feel different. Is that attributable to zero fluoride? Placebo? Dietary changes? Who knows.

[Parker2112]

is it more expensive Balli?

[balli]

My whole lifestyle or just spring water? In either case, the answer is yes. Personally, the costs are manageable for water. I buy two and a half gallon containers with like pull out spigots that run about 3.50 a pop. I'll use two or three a week, depending on how much water I'm drinking.

It's far more costly than tap water, but not all that expensive in general.

Eventually, I'm going to install an under the sink filter or buy a water cooler and sign up for home delivery of 5 gallon containers.

[Parker2112]

My whole lifestyle or just spring water? In either case, the answer is yes. Personally, the costs are manageable for water. I buy two and a half gallon containers with like pull out spigots that run about 3.50 a pop. I'll use two or three a week, depending on how much water I'm drinking.

It's far more costly than tap water, but not all that expensive in general.

Eventually, I'm going to install an under the sink filter or buy a water cooler and sign up for home delivery of 5 gallon containers.

mainly I mean the deodorant, soap...

and how about all those veggies...did your grocery bill go up?

[CosmicCowboy]

Do y'all remember back before we had flouride in the water here? EVERY FUCKING YEAR it was on the ballot to start adding flouride to the water. It kept getting voted down year after year despite all the money they spent on commercials...smiling dentists, etc. It FINALLY passes and...suddenly no more votes on flouride...WTF?

[Parker2112]

Do y'all remember back before we had flouride in the water here? EVERY FUCKING YEAR it was on the ballot to start adding flouride to the water. It kept getting voted down year after year despite all the money they spent on commercials...smiling dentists, etc. It FINALLY passes and...suddenly no more votes on flouride...WTF?

what years were those?

[CosmicCowboy]

I think it finally passed in 1985.

[balli]

mainly I mean the deodorant, soap...

and how about all those veggies...did your grocery bill go up?

Deodorant, soap, etc I'm probably breaking even on.

As far as food, it's tough to tell. I eat out a lot less these days, so overall, I'm probably saving money.

It feels expensive though. It's tough, because I'm eating a lot of food fresh, so instead of going to the store a couple times a week, it's like I'm there everyday buying shit. Plus, I'm buying organic, so while I'm holding a $5 container of organic cherry tomatoes, it's hard not to notice the $3 inorganic ones sitting five feet away. I'll do things like drop $6 bucks on two pieces of organic wheat naan bread. Or 7 bucks on like a veggie sushi roll.

It's things like that, that makes it feel more expensive. If it actually is, I guess I don't know, but I do know I'm not getting the same sensory experience/dollar that I used to. eg: I'm not buying $20 Ahi steaks or eating in a steakhouse every other night and savoring every bite. Instead, I'm buying three tubs of hummus and grinding my way through them. Which is cool, but it feels like the expense doesn't justify the sensory payoff, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I'm in it for other reasons though; eat to live don't live to eat, is my new motto.

[Wild Cobra]

I would actually buy this from a policy standpoint. It makes sense, for both policy makers and corps, to dilute poisonous waste products like flouride (see vid #3) to safe levels spread over the water supply nationwide rather than create polluted hot spots and ensuing lawsuits that stifle an entire industry and ultimately the national economy.

I confirmed a couple of things about this with a friend who works at a water plant in east texas...it made it all the more convincing actually.

evidently the opposition to flouridation is coming from many professionals in different fields so no need to throw up the conspiracy cloud on this issue. it is a debatable issue...the harder you try to squash something like this the harder the pushback. although i know its coming. its a natural reaction Im learning...because people cant believe that they aren't beyond getting lied to and getting fooled on important issues like this. people need to think that they are much to smart for trhat, so they continue to buy the company/govt line.

people just like...
If you don't want flouride, just buy bottled water or boil your water.

Have you ever noticed how many people have rotted out teeth that are in areas without fluoridated water? Yes, fluorine is toxic, but like anything, it depends on the level. Your conspiracy theory of them getting rid of toxic waste that way is so utterly ridiculous. But then... I've learned not to expect better from you already.

Food for thought. Some natural water supplies have more naturally occurring fluoride than thought to be healthy, so it is partially removed, rather than added..

[balli]

Boiling water doesn't get rid of fluoride. FYI.

[Parker2112]

I wasnt in San Antonio at that time. I was drinking sweet community well water in East Texas. I can still remember how that stuff tasted, running cold out of the hose in the front yard when I was a kid. I've never tasted anything like it anywhere else. And I have drank from glaciers in Washington, Montana and from the Columbia Ice Fields in Canada.

Cant beat the water from Pine Prairie, son!

[CosmicCowboy]

On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.

[Parker2112]

If you don't want flouride, just buy bottled water or boil your water.

Have you ever noticed how many people have rotted out teeth that are in areas without fluoridated water? Yes, fluorine is toxic, but like anything, it depends on the level. Your conspiracy theory of them getting rid of toxic waste that way is so utterly ridiculous. But then... I've learned not to expect better from you already.

Food for thought. Some natural water supplies have more naturally occurring fluoride than thought to be healthy, so it is partially removed, rather than added..

As I was discussing with Chump, there is a huge difference in the toxicity of sodium flouride and naturally occuring calcium flouride.

Actually, as for the "conspiracy theory," I spent a few years in undergrad putting myself through with a wastewater treatment plant. I know folks WC. And they happened to confirm, this morning, where they get their flouride. And its not so much conspiracy as FACT. At least in the town I used to work in.


Production and principal reactions
H2SiF6 is mainly produced as a by-product from the production of phosphoric acid from apatite (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Apatite) and fluorapatite (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Fluorapatite). In the U.S. about 85% of fluorspar (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Fluorspar) is used to produce hydrofluorosilic acid.[3] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-USGS-2) The phosphoric and hydrofluoric acids are liberated from the mineral by the action of sulfuric acid (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Sulfuric_acid). Some of the HF in turn reacts with silicate minerals, which are an unavoidable constituent of the mineral feedstock, to give silicon tetrafluoride. Thus formed, the silicon tetrafluoride reacts further with HF. The net process can be described as:[4] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-Ullmann-3)
SiO2 + 6 HF → H2SiF6 + 2 H2O Hexafluorosilicic acid can also be produced by treating silicon tetrafluoride and hydrofluoric acid.
Neutralization of solutions of hexafluorosilicic acid with alkali metal bases produces the corresponding alkali metal fluorosilicate salts:
H2SiF6 + 2 NaOH → Na2SiF6 + 2 H2O The resulting salt Na2SiF6 is mainly used in water fluoridation. Related ammonium and barium salts are produced similarly for other applications. With excess base, the hexafluorosilicate undergoes hydrolysis, so the neutralization of the hexafluorosilicic acid must guard against this easy hydrolysis reaction:
Na2SiF6 + 4 NaOH → 6 NaF + SiO2 + 2 H2O [edit (http://spurstalk.com/w/index.php?title=Hexafluorosilicic_acid&action=edit&section=3)] Uses

Hexafluorosilic acid is the feedstock for "virtually all organic and inorganic fluorine-bearing chemicals".[3] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-USGS-2) The majority of the hexafluorosilicic acid is converted to aluminium fluoride (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Aluminium_fluoride) and cryolite (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Cryolite).[4] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-Ullmann-3) These materials are central to the conversion of aluminium ore into aluminium (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Aluminium) metal.

[balli]

On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.

Yeah, I think that was the same year Salt Lake started adding it too. Maybe '03.

Have you ever noticed how many people have rotted out teeth that are in areas without fluoridated water?
For the record, I've only had one cavity in my life and that came after I started drinking fluoride in my water. I'm not going to claim anecdote as proof, but if a person brushes their teeth, flosses and uses mouthwash, there is absolutely no need for them to ingest extra fluoride. If people can't do those things, then let their teeth rot out they skulls. Nobody should have to drink topical chemicals because other people don't brush their teeth.

[Parker2112]

Actually I dont buy unless Im sold. When something like this peaks my interest, I like to get a broad take on it. So I post it here. I understand the criticism will come, and I understand that being called names is par for the course when you cite an Alex Jones story. But I'm glad I got the input that I did here.

CC helped me understand that even though the public wouldnt go for it, it was continually pushed on San Antonio until they relented. Interesting. Whos doing the pushing? And without public support, why?

[Parker2112]

On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.

remind me when Toyota came to town?

[Bender]

Eventually, I'm going to install an under the sink filter or buy a water cooler and sign up for home delivery of 5 gallon containers.
about 10 years ago I had Culligan install one of those reverse osmosis filtration systems under my sink. I love it for drinking water, making coffee, tea, ice cubes, etc.

I think it removes most of the flouride in the water.

[Wild Cobra]

Boiling water doesn't get rid of fluoride. FYI.
You sure of that?

[balli]

^ Yes.

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2009/04/07/can-you-remove-fluoride-by-boiling-water.htm

[Bender]

You sure of that?it isn't some kind of bacteria... that can be killed by boiling :lol

edit: oops too slow

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, as for the "conspiracy theory," I spent a few years in undergrad putting myself through with a wastewater treatment plant. I know folks WC. And they happened to confirm, this morning, where they get their flouride. And its not so much conspiracy as FACT. At least in the town I used to work in.
Hexafluorosilic acid is the feedstock for "virtually all organic and inorganic fluorine-bearing chemicals".[3] The majority of the hexafluorosilicic acid is converted to aluminium fluoride and cryolite.[4] These materials are central to the conversion of aluminium ore into aluminium metal.
Waste water is not used generally as drinking water. Yes, the aluminum industry used fluorides to purify the aluminum, and the cryolite to reduce the required temperature of the bauxite for electrolysis. I worked in that industry in the 70's. I know some things have changes, but they still use that mineral to reduce power requirements. It is Sodium Fluoride that is used in drinking water, and if another form is used, then yes. Red flags should be shot up.

I have no compelling need to have sodium fluoride in the water. I just don't see it as a threat either.

[Wild Cobra]

^ Yes.

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2009/04/07/can-you-remove-fluoride-by-boiling-water.htm

As soon as I posted, I realized that likely was the case, it is a salt rather than a gas. If it was in gas form, boiling would remove it.

[FromWayDowntown]

in Dr. Strangelove, we learned that flouridation was a commie plot.

It's funny, when I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of Colonel Jack D. Ripper and this exchange:



General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.

General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.

General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?

General Jack D. Ripper: Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.

General Jack D. Ripper: But I... I do deny them my essence.

[RandomGuy]

[Floride is really really bad for you and part of a secret government/sinister plot]

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/bs.jpg

I went a round with my brothers' mother in law about this and looked it up.

Best I can tell there is little to no hard scientific proof that the floride in drinking water has any effect on humans other than a few sensitive individuals, or people who end up exposing themselves to concentrations far higher than that in the water.

I have a natural inclination to be skeptical about this stuff, especially when used as de facto evidence of some conspiracy. "it makes ya docile" quoth my brothers' mother in law.

Anything in large amounts, including water itself, can be harmful.

Quite frankly, I think there are plenty of other nasty chemicals out there in our modern environment to be concerned about, and we have a lot more data to support concerns about those.

My experience with conspiracy theories leads me to believe that they almost always tend to have some root in pseudo-science or bad science, which is why they take root. There are a lot of scientifically illiterate people out there to whom science-y sounding things take on unwarranted credibility.

I have yet to read Parker's research into this, but my own does not lead me to be optimistic that they will pan out to be anything that would approach sufficient to change the way we drink our water.

If it is really bad, then stop it. I would welcome a solid study on whether it is beneficial in the first place.

[Bender]

20 years from now there will be something bad come up about flouride in the water, and it will be like "oops". Just like how the gov't and health agencies were begging people to use sunscreen in the sun for the past 30 years, and now there is all that news about how 4 out of 5 sunscreens cause MORE skin cancer.

[balli]

As far as RG's take goes:

It's not about the science for me (although I admit to being leery of its supposed benefits, solely on anecdote). Its about the precedent of being forcibly (more or less) medicated. Fluoride could be perfectly harmless, even beneficial, but it shouldn't be in our drinking water. We should have a choice as to whether we want to ingest something, be it beneficial or not. Especially if that something is chemical or medicinal. Especially if that something is in water, the substance that pervades literally every cell of our bodies.

And I suppose the obligatory free market argument can be made; it can be pointed out that there are options for not drinking fluoride. But with that shit in every municipal water system and thereby in all our prepared food products and in all of our crops, in all of our millions of miles of pipes, in all of our shower heads, I think we can all agree that it's harder to make a free market choice than it would be if our water was available in greater quantities through private sources, rather than municipal.

[Parker2112]

Waste water is not used generally as drinking water. Yes, the aluminum industry used fluorides to purify the aluminum, and the cryolite to reduce the required temperature of the bauxite for electrolysis. I worked in that industry in the 70's. I know some things have changes, but they still use that mineral to reduce power requirements. It is Sodium Fluoride that is used in drinking water, and if another form is used, then yes. Red flags should be shot up.

I have no compelling need to have sodium fluoride in the water. I just don't see it as a threat either.

My only association with drinking water is that I know guys that worked at the water plant...we all worked for the same small municipality. and this morning, one of them told me that they add Hydroflouracilic acid to the water there. When I looked it up, I found that info I posted earlier.

[xrayzebra]

Isn't the groundwater of most of the western US and the much of country of India (among other places worldwide) naturally fluoridated to higher levels than recommended for dental health?

Shouldn't cancer levels be measurably higher in these areas that use that water for drinking?

Or is it just different fluoride?

then why do you want it in your toothpaste. Not that I mind, as a
matter of fact, hopefully you brush several times a day.......:lol

I am just so happy the our government worries about all these really
essential things, like smoking, getting too fat, too much salt, the bad
fats people cook with, seat belts, air bags (how does that compute with
politicians) declarations about laws other governments pass, people
in our country illegally (Oops, forgot, they don't enforce that law).

It is so nice we have our government to tell us how to live our lives.

Did you buckle up today?:lol

[Parker2112]

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/bs.jpg

I went a round with my brothers' mother in law about this and looked it up.

Best I can tell there is little to no hard scientific proof that the floride in drinking water has any effect on humans other than a few sensitive individuals, or people who end up exposing themselves to concentrations far higher than that in the water.

I have a natural inclination to be skeptical about this stuff, especially when used as de facto evidence of some conspiracy. "it makes ya docile" quoth my brothers' mother in law.

Anything in large amounts, including water itself, can be harmful.

Quite frankly, I think there are plenty of other nasty chemicals out there in our modern environment to be concerned about, and we have a lot more data to support concerns about those.

My experience with conspiracy theories leads me to believe that they almost always tend to have some root in pseudo-science or bad science, which is why they take root. There are a lot of scientifically illiterate people out there to whom science-y sounding things take on unwarranted credibility.

I have yet to read Parker's research into this, but my own does not lead me to be optimistic that they will pan out to be anything that would approach sufficient to change the way we drink our water.

If it is really bad, then stop it. I would welcome a solid study on whether it is beneficial in the first place.

The question should not be why we should change the way we drink our water. The question should be: why do we change it to begin with? when you frame it that way, things are a little cloudier.

[Parker2112]

as far as rg's take goes:

It's not about the science for me (although i admit to being leery of its supposed benefits, solely on anecdote). Its about the precedent of being forcibly (more or less) medicated. Fluoride could be perfectly harmless, even beneficial, but it shouldn't be in our drinking water. We should have a choice as to whether we want to ingest something, be it beneficial or not. Especially if that something is chemical or medicinal. Especially if that something is in water, the substance that pervades literally every cell of our bodies.

And i suppose the obligatory free market argument can be made; it can be pointed out that there are options for not drinking fluoride. But with that shit in every municipal water system and thereby in all our prepared food products and in all of our crops, in all of our millions of miles of pipes, in all of our shower heads, i think we can all agree that it's harder to make a free market choice than it would be if our water was available in greater quantities through private sources, rather than municipal.

this.

[Jekka]

Kids that get fluorosis as badly as in the posted photos are probably kids whose parents don't care (or don't know) if they swallow their toothpaste all the damn time. I have very mild fluorosis from who knows what, and it is only noticeable to dental professionals who have told me that I'm pretty much cavity immune.

I don't really care if there's fluoride in the water or not - based on where I now live and work, there are several more things that can get into the water supply that are worse. For instance, I found out this week that I work less than a mile away from a superfund site where a dry cleaner was putting TCE and other chemicals that are known carcinogens into the groundwater for more than 20 years. THAT concerns me. Fluoride, not so much.

20 years from now there will be something bad come up about flouride in the water, and it will be like "oops". Just like how the gov't and health agencies were begging people to use sunscreen in the sun for the past 30 years, and now there is all that news about how 4 out of 5 sunscreens cause MORE skin cancer.
Source?

[Wild Cobra]

My only association with drinking water is that I know guys that worked at the water plant...we all worked for the same small municipality. and this morning, one of them told me that they add Hydroflouracilic acid to the water there. When I looked it up, I found that info I posted earlier.
That is a nasty form to add. They use to only use Sodium Fluoride, to my knowledge. This is unfortunate news that they would use a form that can generate Hydrofluoric Acid.

Yes, there is cause for alarm, using this form.

[Bender]

Source?
about the sunscreen comment?

it's a controversy, so half the 'experts' say yes it does, the other half say it doesn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/26/tech/main6521447.shtml

[ChumpDumper]

But wait! That same group says Austin has the 7th best water supply in the country --


-- and it has FLUORIDE!


What are we supposed to believe?

[Parker2112]

But wait! That same group says Austin has the 7th best water supply in the country --


-- and it has FLUORIDE!


What are we supposed to believe?

I'm sure they don't consider flouride in any form a contaminant, thus the water can be deemed very safe... notwithstanding the fact that 12 federal and professional employee unions have lobbied for EPA to end flouridation nationwide.

[Parker2112]

What are we supposed to believe?

"Go back to sleep chump!"
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/falcor.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure they don't consider flouride in any form a contaminant, thus the water can be deemed very safe... notwithstanding the fact that 12 federal and professional employee unions have lobbied for EPA to end flouridation nationwide.All I have read is one press release saying that happened. You would think all those unions would have their own pages dedicated to fluoride if that is indeed each union's respective policy.


"Go back to sleep chump!"You never got back to me about how many people have died due to fluoridation. It's been done for over 60 years. There should be a pretty clear body count by now.

[Parker2112]

All I have read is one press release saying that happened. You would think all those unions would have their own pages dedicated to fluoride if that is indeed each union's respective policy.

You never got back to me about how many people have died due to fluoridation. It's been done for over 60 years. There should be a pretty clear body count by now.

I was just trying to be funny with falcor there...

the info is in the videos. check em out. no one dies. thats not the concern. the concern is the toxicity itself. why put toxic crap into the water?

the risks are not death...they are flourosis, weakening of bones in elderly, rotting of teeth in young kids, damage to internal organs from overdosing where that happens, and the fact that the additive is a carcinogen (which you know as well as I there is no way to test the effects).

so my question to you is: why put toxic crap, chemicals that are known to cause disease and degradation of the human body into the water supply if the science on benefits is disputed?

could it be that it is a necessary evil?

[Parker2112]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flouride_controversy

highly suggest you read that chump.



Since 1985, the United States Environmental Protection Agency (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency) (EPA) headquarters' union has expressed concerns about fluoride. In 2005, eleven EPA employee unions, representing over 7000 environmental and public health professionals of the Civil Service, called for a halt on drinking water fluoridation programs across the USA and asked EPA management to recognize fluoride as posing a serious risk of causing cancer (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Cancer) in people. [33] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-32)
In 1992, speaking on the Canadian television program Marketplace (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Marketplace_(TV_series)), former EPA (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/EPA) scientist Robert Carton claimed that "fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Fraud) of this century." The practice was described as the "longest running public health controversy in North America" in the broadcast. [34] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-33)
In addition, over 3,038 health industry professionals, including one Nobel prize winner in medicine (Arvid Carlsson (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Arvid_Carlsson)), doctors, dentists, scientists and researchers from a variety of disciplines are calling for an end to water fluoridation in an online petition to Congress.[35] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-FlorideAlertAugust2007-34) The petition signers express concern for vulnerable (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Vulnerability) groups like "small children, above average water drinkers, diabetics (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Diabetics), and people with poor kidney (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Kidney) function," who they believe may already be overdosing (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Overdosing) on fluoride.[35] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-FlorideAlertAugust2007-34) Another concern that the petition signers share is, "The admission by federal agencies, in response to questions from a Congressional subcommittee in 1999-2000, that the industrial grade waste products used to fluoridate over 90% of America's drinking water supplies (fluorosilicate compounds) have never been subjected to toxicological (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Toxicological) testing nor received FDA approval for human ingestion."[35] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-FlorideAlertAugust2007-34) The petition was sponsored by the Fluoride Action Network (http://spurstalk.com/wiki/Fluoride_Action_Network).[36] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-35)[37] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-36)[38] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-37)[39] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/#cite_note-38)


an excellent bit on the depths of conspiracy beliefs there as well...

[ChumpDumper]

the risks are not death...they are flourosis, weakening of bones in elderly, rotting of teeth in young kids, damage to internal organs from overdosing where that happens, and the fact that the additive is a carcinogen (which you know as well as I there is no way to test the effects).

so my question to you is: why put toxic crap, chemicals that are known to cause disease and degradation of the human body into the water supply if the science on benefits is disputed?

could it be that it is a necessary evil?So what are the numbers of all the ills you listed that can be attributed to fluoride?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flouride_controversy

highly suggest you read that chump.

an excellent bit on the depths of conspiracy beliefs there as well...That's the same press release that is everywhere. If it is truly the position of those unions and not just a few individuals, those unions will say so.

[panic giraffe]

Fluoridation of the water supply is the penultimate threat to the one true America. The Illuminati, through their puppets in the UN, the US State Department, Federal Reserve, Schwinn, and SAWS have made their move to steal the precious bodily fluids of every true American. This must not stand.


Ingesting fluoride in huge quantities has been proven to predispose individuals to world socialism, enjoying soccer, drinking European beer, and homosexuality.

this made me laugh so fucking loud.

so when does parker start the vaccine thread? or whatever is next in that 5 hour dvd the other paulite gave me at an art show....

[panic giraffe]

It's funny, when I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of Colonel Jack D. Ripper and this exchange:

when will we find another kubrick?

movies suck nowadays.

[balli]

so when does parker start the vaccine thread?
You get to choose whether or not to get a particular vaccination though. No?

[Marcus Bryant]

It's funny, when I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of Colonel Jack D. Ripper and this exchange:

:tu

[LnGrrrR]

20 years from now there will be something bad come up about flouride in the water, and it will be like "oops". Just like how the gov't and health agencies were begging people to use sunscreen in the sun for the past 30 years, and now there is all that news about how 4 out of 5 sunscreens cause MORE skin cancer.

Wtf? I missed this news. Thanks for the headsup; checking out some articles now. Cancer runs in my family and I'm fairly liberal with the sunscreen.

[ChumpDumper]

Wtf? I missed this news. Thanks for the headsup; checking out some articles now. Cancer runs in my family and I'm fairly liberal with the sunscreen.Looks like it runs along the lines of the saccharin scare of the 70s. Mice are exposed to ridiculous levels of chemicals and wow! Cancer! Who would have guessed?

[Parker2112]

this made me laugh so fucking loud.

so when does parker start the vaccine thread? or whatever is next in that 5 hour dvd the other paulite gave me at an art show....

have you ever watched your kid's fever escalate all night after innoculations and waited in fear that eventually he would start convulsing?

Its pretty fucking scary.

but no, i wont be starting any of those based on any evidence ive heard so far...

we stage my sons shots when we can. I dont buy the line that all those shots simultaneously are safe. and my pediatrician didnt even believe in giving all the shots recommended. could have had something to do with her two year old daughter and self research...i dont know. but i know the argument on the other side as well, and its just as scary.

But until you see me post it panic, why not just stfu.

[Parker2112]

You get to choose whether or not to get a particular vaccination though. No?

yes, but some areas require the shots to get your kids in school. and in california, where any parent can decline the shots with a signature I think, they are having whooping cough outbreaks, and blaming the vaccination resistance movement. so there may be some backlash soon, even in traditionally progressive areas

[Parker2112]

So what are the numbers of all the ills you listed that can be attributed to fluoride?

That's the same press release that is everywhere. If it is truly the position of those unions and not just a few individuals, those unions will say so.

They did. http://www.fluoridealert.org/hp-epa.htm

National Treasury Employees Union - Chapter 280
May 1, 1999
Why EPA's Headquarters Professionals' Union Opposes Fluoridation
by Dr. J. William Hirzy
Senior Vice President, NTEU Chapter 280
The following documents why our union (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/epa/memos/union/index.html), formerly National Federation of Federal Employees Local 2050 and since April 1998 Chapter 280 of the National Treasury Employees Union, took the stand it did opposing fluoridation of drinking water supplies. Our union is comprised of and represents the approximately 1500 scientists, lawyers, engineers and other professional employees at EPA Headquarters here in Washington, D.C.

damn your lazy habits chump

[ChumpDumper]

1999?

Anything in the last decade?

And anything not on an anti-fluoride website?

Thanks in advance.

[Parker2112]

1999?

Anything in the last decade?

And anything not on an anti-fluoride website?

Thanks in advance.

on the union website:
http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/629FINAL.htm

[DarrinS]

Enomologist J. Gordon Edwards used to eat DDT to show it was safe.

Here's a photo of him circa 1971.
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/Fall02/Gordon.Edwards.jpg


He lived to the ripe age of 85.

[Parker2112]

Letter of Concern to EPA Administrator, from the unions, current as of today, along with several other letters to confirm their history of opposition which stands as of 2010.

http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/fluoridesummary.htm

http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/flouride.unions.epa.a.2005.htm





Coalition of U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Unions



August 5, 2005

RE: Bone Cancer-Fluoride Link

Hon. Stephen L. Johnson, Administrator
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

Dear Administrator Johnson:
We, the undersigned representatives of a majority (eleven) of EPA’s employee unions, are requesting that you direct the Office of Water to issue an Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking setting the maximum contaminant level goal for fluoride at zero, in accordance with Agency policy for all likely or known human carcinogens. Our request is based on the overall weight of the evidence supporting the classification of fluoride as a human carcinogen, including new information from Harvard on the link between fluoride in drinking water and osteosarcoma in boys that was conveyed to you in a meeting with union officials on May 4, 2005.
We appreciate that the Agency anticipates a report next year from the National Research Council on the propriety of its current drinking water standards for fluoride. But it seems highly inappropriate for EPA to do nothing now that it is in possession of this science, while millions of young boys continue to be exposed unwittingly to the elevated risk of a fatal bone cancer as the Agency waits for the NRC to issue its report, then for the report to undergo peer review, and then for the Agency to undertake its own deliberations.
By issuing an Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking the Agency would inform the public and local health authorities about the results of the doctoral dissertation from the Harvard School of Dental Medicine by Elise Bassin without committing the Agency to a formal rulemaking until all those other steps are taken.

It is noteworthy that when industry becomes aware of important new scientific findings like this, it has (depending on the specific statute) a very brief time to notify EPA. The Agency is then expected to take timely and appropriate action based on the specifics of that notification. In the present case EPA is aware of important new, high quality evidence of potentially serious danger to young boys drinking fluoridated water, and we believe EPA has an ethical duty to send an effective warning immediately about this hazard.

It may in fact be appropriate for you to direct EPA’s Office of Criminal Enforcement to investigate why Dr. Bassin’s study, which was of sufficient quality for her to earn her doctoral degree, remained hidden from EPA for four years. Alternatively, you could request that the Department of Justice undertake the investigation.

As you know, the apparent cover up of the link between water fluoridation and a seven-fold increased risk of osteosarcoma in young boys, shown by the research of Dr. Bassin, is now national news. Major newspapers, including the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal have covered the story. The Environmental Working Group has petitioned the National Toxicology Program to classify fluoride as a human carcinogen based in part on Dr. Bassin’s work. (We recommend EWG’s petition as a succinct and authoritative overview of the total weight of peer-reviewed evidence supporting the classification of fluoride as a human carcinogen.) EWG has also caused an investigation of the cover up to be started by Harvard and NIEHS, which funded the research.
The eyes of the nation are on the federal science establishment because of a host of scientific integrity issues. Former EPA Assistant Administrator Lynn Goldman and Roni Neff have just published a paper in the American Journal of Public Health on the cost of delayed adoption of health-protective standards that illuminates the real public health costs of the government’s failure to act on sound scientific evidence.
We believe our Agency can make an important statement about its commitment to scientific integrity and its application to public health protection by taking the precautionary action we are recommending.
We at EPA can be ahead of the curve on this important issue or behind it. We do not think the latter choice is in the best interest of the public, the Civil Service or EPA, and we fervently and respectfully hope that you will agree with us. As a wise man once said, ”The science is what the science is.”
We will be happy to discuss this with you and your advisers at your convenience.


Sincerely,


Dwight A. Welch, President J. William Hirzy, Vice-President
NTEU Chapter 280 NTEU 280
EPA Headquarters EPA Headquarters

/s/Steve Shapiro, President /s/Paul Sacker, President
AFGE local 3331 AFGE Local 3911
EPA Headquarters Region 2 Office, New York

/s/Larry Penley. President /s/Nancy Barron, President
NTEU Chapter 279 NAGE Local R5-55
EPA Cincinnati Laboratory Region 4 Office, Atlanta

/s/Wendell Smith, President /s/Patrick Chan, President
ESC/IFPTE Local 20 NTEU Chapter 295
Region 9 Office, San Francisco Region 9 Office, San Francisco

/s/Henry Burrell, President /s/Alan Hollis, President
AFGE Local 3428 AFGE Local 3611
Region 1 Office, Boston Region 3 Office, Philadelphia

/s/Frank Beck, President /s/Mark Coryell, President
AFGE Local 2900 AFGE Local 3907
Ada Laboratory Ann Arbor Laboratory


cc:
Sen. James Inhofe Sen. James Jeffords
Sen. Mike Enzi Sen. Edward Kennedy
Sen. Saxby Chambliss Sen. Tom Harkin
Sen. Ted Stevens Sen. Daniel Inouye

Rep. Joe Barton Rep. John Dingell
Rep. Sherwood Boehlert Rep. Bart Gordon
Rep. Paul Gillmor Rep. Hilda Solis
Rep. Nathan Deal Rep. Sherrod Brown
Rep. Henry Waxman

your welcome.

glad I could look out for you and yours.

[Parker2112]

Enomologist J. Gordon Edwards used to eat DDT to show it was safe.

Here's a photo of him circa 1971.
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/Fall02/Gordon.Edwards.jpg


He lived to the ripe age of 85.

how many got sick? vs. this 1 guy? your proof of DDT safety is 1 guy vs thousands?

what a jackass...

[ChumpDumper]

on the union website:
http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/629FINAL.htm2000?

I guess that's better than 1999.

Anything new on that front?

[Parker2112]

Letter of Concern to EPA Administrator, from the unions, current as of today, along with several other letters to confirm their history of opposition which stands as of 2010.

http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/fluoridesummary.htm

http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/flouride.unions.epa.a.2005.htm



your welcome.

glad I could look out for you and yours.

[ChumpDumper]

Thanks. Austin's fluoride level is about 1/8 the maximum allowed by the feds, so I'm going to have some tap water now.

[Marcus Bryant]

Will your balls fall off if you drink it?

[Parker2112]

I just drank some myself.

~North Austin.

[Parker2112]

Thanks. Austin's fluoride level is about 1/8 the maximum allowed by the feds, so I'm going to have some tap water now.

looks like san antonio is up theirs to nearly 1/4 the allowed dosage.

http://www.saws.org/our_water/fluoride.shtml

I would be most curious to see where they get it.



Hydrofluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6) is used. The fluoride meets standards set by the American Water Works Association (AWWA) and by the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF), organizations that set standards for potable water.

[Parker2112]

Smoking gun bitches. flouride used in drinking water is a byproduct of fertilizer production

that didnt take much effort.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/phosphate/overview.htm#4


Due to the inevitable liabilities that fluoride pollution presented, and to an increasingly stringent set of environmental regulations, the phosphate industry began cleaning up its act.
As noted by Ervin Bellack, a chemist for the US Public Health Service:

"In the manufacture of super-phosphate fertilizer, phosphate rock is acidulated with sulfuric acid, and the fluoride content of the rock evolves as volatile silicofluorides. In the past, much of this volatile material was vented to the atmosphere, contributing heavily to pollution of the air and land surrounding the manufacturing site. As awareness of the pollution problem increased, scrubbers were added to strip particulate and gaseous components from the waste gas..." (Bellack 1970)
A 1979 review (http://www.fluoridealert.org/phosphate/denzinger.htm), published in the journal Phosphorous & Potassium, added:

"The fluorine compounds liberated during the acidulation of phosphate rock are now rightly regarded as a menace and the industry is now obliged to suppress emissions-containing vapors to within very low limits in most parts of the world...
In the past, little attention was paid to the emission of gaseous fluorine compounds in the fertilizer industry. But today fluorine recovery is increasingly necessary because of stringent environmental restrictions which demand drastic reductions in the quantities of volatile and toxic fluorine compounds emitted into the waste gases. These compounds now have to be recovered and converted into harmless by-products for disposal or, more desirably, into marketable products" (Denzinger 1979).

[ChumpDumper]

"Harmless by-products"?

Menacing.

[MiamiHeat]

My whole lifestyle or just spring water? In either case, the answer is yes. Personally, the costs are manageable for water. I buy two and a half gallon containers with like pull out spigots that run about 3.50 a pop. I'll use two or three a week, depending on how much water I'm drinking.

It's far more costly than tap water, but not all that expensive in general.

Eventually, I'm going to install an under the sink filter or buy a water cooler and sign up for home delivery of 5 gallon containers.

I read somewhere that mostly all of the bottled and pre-packaged water come from municipal sources.

[balli]

I read somewhere that mostly all of the bottled and pre-packaged water come from municipal sources.
true, but...

pfffffffffff, I ain't drinking no fucking Dasani. I'm from Utah. Mount Olympus FTW.

http://www.mowi.com/

[Parker2112]

"Harmless by-products"?

Menacing.

forest for the trees.

[Parker2112]

"Harmless by-products"?

Menacing.

you see, chump, they would never admit to putting harmful waste into water. But here, they do admit to the origin of the stuff. So we can take that as an admission on count 1, and a denial on count 2.

But count 2 is at dispute. Even EPA scientists are trying to force us away from the practice. so there is a strong dispute on the practice.

what is not in dispute, however, is that if the "Harmless by-products" are not dumped into our water, they will have to be disposed of as toxic waste, because they are in fact poisonous. the products themselves are labeled as such by law.

HOW FUGGIN IRONIC IS THAT?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Could you give me the Cliff's Notes version of this?

Thanks in advance.

Instant self-scoff coming from someone who is a self-proclaimed 9/11 commission report reader.

[ChumpDumper]

you see, chump, they would never admit to putting harmful waste into water. But here, they do admit to the origin of the stuff. So we can take that as an admission on count 1, and a denial on count 2.

But count 2 is at dispute. Even EPA scientists are trying to force us away from the practice. so there is a strong dispute on the practice.

what is not in dispute, however, is that if the "Harmless by-products" are not dumped into our water, they will have to be disposed of as toxic waste, because they are in fact poisonous. the products themselves are labeled as such by law.

HOW FUGGIN IRONIC IS THAT?Fairly. But understandable considering concentrations involved.

Water poisoning is more ironic.


Instant self-scoff coming from someone who is a self-proclaimed 9/11 commission report reader.I do instantly scoff 30 minute YouTubes. They are never worth my time.

[Parker2112]

Fairly. But understandable considering concentrations involved.

Water poisoning is more ironic.

I do instantly scoff 30 minute YouTubes. They are never worth my time.

you are probably smart on that rule.

Maybe take the 9 mins to watch vid 3. its worth it.

[Parker2112]

if the "Harmless by-products" are not dumped into our water, they will have to be disposed of as toxic waste, because they are in fact poisonous. Costly.

vs.

harmless in the water considering concentrations involved. at a profit to producers.


there you have it folks
THE LYNCHPIN.

[ChumpDumper]

there you have it folks
THE LYNCHPIN.So is all the waste fluoride put into the water supply?

Yes or no.

[Parker2112]

So is all the waste fluoride put into the water supply?

Yes or no.

I'll give you that you give me this:
They are profiting on the waste product which would otherwise cost serious $ to dispose of:

Yes or No.

[Parker2112]

http://www.sydneywriterscentre.com.au/newsletter/2010/141-silence.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Was that a yes or a no?

[Parker2112]

http://www.sydneywriterscentre.com.au/newsletter/2010/141-silence.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

So you aren't going to answer the question.

No problem.

[Parker2112]

So you aren't going to answer the question.

No problem.

I won't arm you for the dump, clar-rice...

[ChumpDumper]

I won't arm you for the dump, clar-rice...You won't answer a simple question about fluoride in the thread you started to inform people about fluoride.

[Parker2112]

So is all the waste fluoride put into the water supply?

Yes or no.

"How could anyone possibly know that?"
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__lvGGxlkHws/SYefjuG42lI/AAAAAAAABq4/xLAqs66MA_o/s200/kip.jpg

[Parker2112]

You won't answer a simple question about fluoride in the thread you started to inform people about fluoride.

to be fair, thats not a simple question. How would any layman know the answer to this question? None on this forum even believes that the flouride used is a industrial waste product. proof positive that this subject matter is not an area of common knowledge.

Answer the question for me and then make the intended dump. but just know this: I aint no...
http://creoleindc.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5e0053ef01156f854e0c970c-800wi

[Parker2112]

Community is being challenged on flouridation by local teens

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/community/huber-heights/teenagers-want-fluoride-free-water-845955.html?showComments=true

[ChumpDumper]

How many cases of bone cancer in Huber Heights over the last forty years do the teens attribute to fluoride?

[boutons_deux]

Guess where your fluoride comes from? China!

by David Gutierrez, staff writer

(NaturalNews) Much of the fluoride added to municipal water supplies across the United States is imported from China, and is contaminated with heavy metals, according to a warning by Bernard Miltenberger, president of the Pure Water Committee of Western Maryland.

In a letter published in the Cumberland Times-News, Miltenberger notes that he first became aware of the issue in an engineering report for the city of Boulder, Colo. The report noted that the fluoridation chemicals used for the city's water had been evaluated, and were found to contain lead levels of 40 milligrams per bag and arsenic levels of 50 milligrams per bag. The bags were being imported from China under no regulatory monitoring of acid or salt content.

Miltenberger then visited the Frostburg Water Filtration Plant in Maryland and noticed that the fluoride bags were not labeled with any importation information. He contacted the plant's chemical supplier, Univar USA, and was then referred to Sovay fluorides. Sovay informed him that the fluoride had been manufactured by Shanghai Minthchem Development in China.

"This type of trade from a country with a track record of lead paint on toys to antifreeze in cough syrup medicine is completely unacceptable," Miltenberger writes.

Heavy metal contamination is only the latest concern to emerge over the practice of water fluoridation, which has been controversial since its inception. Fluoride is a well-known toxic chemical, as Miltenberger notes:

"The material safety data sheets from Solvay fluorides show that a teaspoon amount of five grams of sodium fluoride can be fatal to an average size man of 70kg. ... chronic toxicity by oral route may cause skeletal and dental fluorosis, thyroid, testes, kidney, liver, ambiguous carcinogenic and mutagenic effects, fetotoxic and fertility effects."

Miltenberger also notes that fluoride toothpaste contains a warning that anyone who consumes more than a pea-size amount should contact a poison control center at once. This amount of toothpaste contains as much fluoride as just eight ounces of fluoridated water. A prescription-strength fluoride supplement marketed by Colgate warns that children under the age of six should not consume doses regularly added to municipal water.

http://www.naturalnews.com/z029477_fluoride_China.html

========

So the US importers don't test the quality of their products that go into millions of humans, and don't impose quality standards on the CHEAP CHINA mfr. It's all about profit, and fuck everything and everybody else.

"If man made it, don't put it in your mouth"

[Blake]

So the US importers don't test the quality of their products that go into millions of humans, and don't impose quality standards on the CHEAP CHINA mfr. It's all about profit, and fuck everything and everybody else.

"If man made it, don't put it in your mouth"

What kind of toothpaste do you use?

[boutons_deux]

Arm & Hammer

[Blake]

Arm & Hammer

which type of A&H?

[boutons_deux]

"I don't inhale"

[Blake]

"I don't inhale"


"If man made it, don't put it in your mouth"

I was hoping you had found an alternative to flouride that was as effective at fighting cavities.

[Parker2112]

http://www.thatsfit.ca/2010/09/13/fluoride-drinking-water/?icid=main|canada-hp|dl3|sec2_lnk1|170350



Why Fluoride Should Be Banned From Our Drinking Water (http://www.thatsfit.ca/2010/09/13/fluoride-drinking-water/)

by Doug DiPasquale (http://spurstalk.com/bloggers/doug-dipasquale/) Sep 13th 2010 9:00AM
Categories: Friends & Family (http://spurstalk.com/category/friends-and-family/), Health (http://spurstalk.com/category/health/)
Print (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))

I woke up to some good news today, when I saw the headline "Green Party of Canada calls for ban on the fluoridation chemicals hexafluorosilicic acid and sodium silicofluoride." (http://www2.fluoridealert.org/Alert/Canada/National/Green-Party-of-Canada-calls-for-ban-on-the-fluoridation-chemicals-hexafluorosilicic-acid-and-sodium-silicofluoride)It seems that, like me, the Green Party isn't happy with the fact that we indiscriminately pump fluoride into our water supply and wants it banned at the federal level. Go Green Party!

Fluoride has been added to our water supply for the last 60 years, supposedly for the benefit of our teeth. It is widely believed that adding fluoride to the drinking water will help to prevent dental caries (cavities). However, the 1999 Centers For Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/) study widely cited as justification for the fluoridation of the water supply only looked at topical applications of fluoride in the form of toothpastes and dental fluoride treatments, not ingested fluoride.

The Green Party's reasons for banning fluoride in tap water are mainly environmental, citing the fact that the fluoride chemicals put into our drinking water are actually toxic by-products scrubbed from the smokestacks of the phosphate mining industry. Also, 99% of this fluoridated water ends up being discharged back into the environment, because none of the processes used to treat sewage water can remove fluoride.

The environmental impact is extremely important, for sure, but I come at the issue from the perspective of how fluoridation immediately affects our health. In 2006, a distinguished panel appointed by the National Research Council of the National Academies published a 500 page report (http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11571) about the effects of excessive fluoride ingestion. Their conclusion was that the standard set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) (http://www.epa.gov/) of 0.4 parts per million is unsafe and causing "increased risk of bone fractures, decreased thyroid function, lowered IQ, arthritic-like conditions, dental fluorosis and, possibly, osteosarcoma." Toronto, as an example, currently fortifies their water to 0.6 ppm.

Ethically speaking, even if fluoridation of the water supply worked the way we're told it does (preventing tooth decay), we're being delivered unregulated, unapproved medication via the water supply without our consent. This is completely unethical. Never mind that the daily dose of medications delivered in this way can't be regulated and the effects of fluoridation on the population are not being monitored -- even more importantly, our rights are being infringed upon by our inability to opt out. Fluoride is actually quite difficult to remove from water, requiring expensive reverse osmosis filter systems or distillation. Yet the cost of these systems is not subsidized for those who don't wish to ingest excessive fluoride.

Lets face it, the fluoridation of our water supply has always been a sneaky means for industry to get rid of a toxic by-product. It has never been about the health of the public's teeth. Keep in mind that the effectiveness of fluoride in drinking water for preventing cavities has *never* been demonstrated, it has only been assumed effective given the effectiveness of topical fluoride treatments. Fluoride works to reduce tooth decay from the exterior of the tooth, not systemically from inside the body. It simply makes no sense to drink it. Fluoride toothpastes are cheap and widely available. This is a viable strategy for getting fluoride for dental health, if one chooses, not by exposing the rest of the body to the risks involved in fluoride ingestion.

Ironically, epidemiological evidence largely indicates water fluoridation to be detrimental to the health of the teeth. Excess fluoride in the diet can actually lead to a condition known as dental fluorosis, where brown discolouration of the teeth with white spotting occurs. A 2007 report by the CDC stated that 41 percent of children aged 12-15 now have some form of fluorosis, whereas 36 percent of children 16-19 have fluorosis (http://www.fluoridealert.org/2007research/03.html). While this effect is largely cosmetic, it still brings the wisdom of fluoride supplementation into question.

Fluoride isn't even an essential nutrient, according to the National Academy of Sciences (http://www.nasonline.org/site/PageServer), meaning no human disease, including tooth decay, can ever result from a fluoride deficiency. The human body needs no fluoride in order to function at its optimum. The same cannot be said for true nutrients like calcium or magnesium, for instance.

Take a look at the ample information on the Fluoride Action Network's site (http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoridation.htm) to see the multiple, well-reasoned arguments against water fluoridation. We've been scammed on this from the very beginning. Hopefully the Green Party can make water fluoridation in Canada a thing of the past.

[Blake]

http://www.thatsfit.ca/2010/09/13/fluoride-drinking-water/?icid=main|canada-hp|dl3|sec2_lnk1|170350

Go Green Party!




Lets face it, the fluoridation of our water supply has always been a sneaky means for industry to get rid of a toxic by-product.

Had me for a second with the NAP's Flouride Studies book, but lost me there.

[Parker2112]

Had me for a second with the NAP's Flouride Studies book, but lost me there.

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/question01.html


The chemicals used to fluoridate 90% of public drinking water are industrial grade hazardous wastes captured in the air pollution-control scrubber systems of the phosphate fertilizer industry, called silicofluorides. ("Fluorine Recovery in the Fertilizer Industry - A Review," Phosphorus & Potassium, No. 103, Sept/Oct 1979.) (Also, see 1-1: "Fluoridation: A Mandate to Dump Toxic Waste in the Name of Public Health", George Glasser, Journalist, St. Petersburg, FL, July 22, 1995.)

[Wild Cobra]

How about we just ban forms of fluoride that are not sodium fluoride.

[Parker2112]

I think that would be a fine idea, but it defeats the point. It doesnt cut costs for industry.

[Blake]

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/question01.html

I don't really want to go digging around for it because I really don't have the same level of concern about flouride as you...

but you really couldn't quote sources any more recent that 1979 and 1995?

[Parker2112]

actually, more recent info points to chinese sources, but I'm not interested in doing the research just this minute

[Blake]

actually, more recent info points to chinese sources, but I'm not interested in doing the research just this minute

huh....

the Chinese have interesting priorities.

[Parker2112]

nZRWvcvPo3o

[Parker2112]

who can really ever certify the quality of Chinese products? Lies Lies Lies

[Parker2112]

anybody watch the vid?

[Parker2112]

that vid is worth the watch.

[Winehole23]

Why don't you just put it in a nutshell for people who haven't watched it yet? That'd be so much faster than waiting for all of us to watch it.

Don't hoard the knowledge, bro.

[Parker2112]

local news report from the east coast, confirming that Chinese Flouride is being dumped into the water. Local Public Works employee is concerned because much of what they are dispensing is non-water soluble; he doesnt know whats in the product. Its clogging up the equipment, and they have halted the process. They then give a brief overview of recent chinese products that have been found to be toxic.

There is some discussion of the fact that the chinese products get the contracts because they are offering the cheapest product.

Still think this crap isnt industrial waste?

[Parker2112]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZRWvcvPo3o&feature=player_embedded

[Parker2112]

d8nqbxJ4dQA

[Winehole23]

If I hadn't been drinking tap water steady in Texas my whole life, without any obvious ill effects yet, I might be a little more receptive to what you're saying.

You could turn out to be right, but the tap water ain't fucked me up yet that I know of.

[Winehole23]

Sure was stinky on SPI, tho. Corpus and Port Aransas, too.

In retrospect, the SA tap water was actually pretty good, but I ain't lived there for 25ish years. Been in Austin. What's it like in SanAnto now?

[boutons_deux]

My kids won't drink SA water. It stinks and tastes, so when they visit, I've gotta buy bottled water.

Municipal water is just another aspect of how fucked America is, and taxpayers won't pay to fix it. They'd rather pay 10,000 times more for bottled water than have municipal clean, taste free, odor free, x-cide free, pharmaceutical-free. But much of bottled water is municipal water. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

If I hadn't been drinking tap water steady in Texas my whole life, without any obvious ill effects yet, I might be a little more receptive to what you're saying.

You could turn out to be right, but the tap water ain't fucked me up yet that I know of.
It really bothers me that some communities are stupid enough to buy fluoride from China, especially after all the contamination issues we have seen to date. Still, Fluoride is used in such small quantities that I don't see a too much a risk that the small amounts of contaminates in the fluoride could have.

Still, I'm going to contact our local water bureau and quiz them a bit.

[Wild Cobra]

If I hadn't been drinking tap water steady in Texas my whole life, without any obvious ill effects yet, I
Are you sure?

maybe that's why you are like you are?

[Wild Cobra]

My kids won't drink SA water. It stinks and tastes, so when they visit, I've gotta buy bottled water.

Municipal water is just another aspect of how fucked America is, and taxpayers won't pay to fix it. They'd rather pay 10,000 times more for bottled water than have municipal clean, taste free, odor free, x-cide free, pharmaceutical-free. But much of bottled water is municipal water. :lol
Do you know how expensive it is to purify the natural area waters of some places? Oklahoma water is very nasty and must be the nastiest water I ever tasted. TX and OK are competing all the time. Who has the worse water?

I drink tap water here in Portland. We have some of the best water in the world here. One reason i cannot stand living other places. I'm so spoiled on one of life's most basic necessities.

[Parker2112]

WH: the flouridation varies, many communities still dont do it, some stopped, some just started. I think SA just started recently, they actually just approved it before Toyata came to town. Whowouldathunkit. Chromedreams.

Also, the flouride is supposedly odorless/tasteless. I can tell you that I am not picky when it comes to water, and have drank it all my life, but that since we moved to North Austin I stopped drinking the tap water because of the chemical after tase, and the fact that it wont quench my thirst.

[Wild Cobra]

WH: the flouridation varies, many communities still dont do it, some stopped, some just started. I think SA just started recently, they actually just approved it before Toyata came to town. Whowouldathunkit. Chromedreams.

Also, the flouride is supposedly odorless/tasteless. I can tell you that I am not picky when it comes to water, and have drank it all my life, but that since we moved to North Austin I stopped drinking the tap water because of the chemical after tase, and the fact that it wont quench my thirst.
LOL...

The water probably taste the same without the fluoride. Water in TX and OK just sucks.

[ChumpDumper]

Water supply smack?

Really?

[Parker2112]

LOL...

The water probably taste the same without the fluoride. Water in TX and OK just sucks.

the best water i ever drank was from a small community well in East Texas. It was called Pine Prairie, not even on the map, and the water tasted crystal clear and slightly sweet.

Since they have expanded their service area and the wells they draw from, the water is not the same. But even glacial water never had that sweet taste that I remember in East Texas.

[Parker2112]

Water supply smack?

Really?

check that youtube vid. Then we can talk. 2 minutes long. Not the one from Austin City Council, the one before.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure was stinky on SPI, tho. Corpus and Port Aransas, too.

In retrospect, the SA tap water was actually pretty good.Agreed.

[Wild Cobra]

Since they have expanded their service area and the wells they draw from, the water is not the same. But even glacial water never had that sweet taste that I remember in East Texas.
Water is orderless and tasteless. That sweet stuff could have been some toxic chemical.

[Parker2112]

minerals. pure glacial water has no taste. different minerals can add flavor. There were no crops, nor was it near industry or business. sparsely populated. If I had to guess I think it was probably cow shit dribbling into the groundwater.

[Wild Cobra]

minerals. pure glacial water has no taste. different minerals can add flavor. There were no crops, nor was it near industry or business. sparsely populated. If I had to guess I think it was probably cow shit dribbling into the groundwater.
LOL...

Could be cow shit and piss you were drinking.

[Parker2112]

cow shit and piss filtered through black mud. and it was phenomenal.

[RandomGuy]

to be fair, thats not a simple question. How would any layman know the answer to this question? None on this forum even believes that the flouride used is a industrial waste product. proof positive that this subject matter is not an area of common knowledge.

Answer the question for me and then make the intended dump. but just know this: I aint no...


You did not answer his question, and he did ask it first.

I am sure that, if waste floride is indeed used to floridate water, the companies that make it would indeed benefit from not having to dispose of the chemical. I have now acknowledged and answered your question.

Now, how much floride is "disposed" of in this manner?

100%
50%
25%
2%

?

[RandomGuy]

"How could anyone possibly know that?"


As for how much "waste flouride" is disposed, it should be fairly easy to find out. Such things are not really closely gaurded secrets.

You still have not provided any proof of motive.

By the by, you can at least ferret out half of the equation by simply using the concentration given here at the SAWS website:
http://www.saws.org/our_water/fluoride.shtml


Fluoride already occurs naturally in San Antonio’s water at 0.3 parts per million. SAWS adds enough fluoride to bring the fluoride level up to 0.8 parts per million, the recommended level that experts say is necessary to protect teeth against decay. Water from the Trinity Aquifer is naturally fluoridated at very near the recommended levels and therefore requires no additional fluoride.

Average daily pumpage from the aquifer:
184.74 mg

I assume mg = million gallons.

at .5 parts per million added (.8-.3) it is a simple matter to find the total amount of required flouride per day, as both are in the same unit.

184.74*0.5

92 gallons per day. times 365 is 33,715 gallons per year. (way over stated simply because it seems that a good chunk of the water does not require any added flouride)

[Parker2112]

You did not answer his question, and he did ask it first.

I am sure that, if waste floride is indeed used to floridate water, the companies that make it would indeed benefit from not having to dispose of the chemical. I have now acknowledged and answered your question.

Now, how much floride is "disposed" of in this manner?

100%
50%
25%
2%

?

no idea. but in theory, a percentage (25%) might offset the disposal costs of the other 75%, allowing break even. again though, I dont know.

[Parker2112]

flouridation of SA water started just prior to Toyota's commitment to open the plant there. co-in-se-dink?

[Parker2112]

Fluoride is found in many common household products, including toothpaste (eg, sodium monofluorophosphate), vitamins, dietary supplements (eg, sodium fluoride), glass-etching or chrome-cleaning agents (eg, ammonium bifluoride), and insecticides and rodenticides (eg, sodium fluoride).

[RandomGuy]

oooh nifty.

I found the actual bid showing just how much SAWS used and how much they proposed to pay for it.

http://www.saws.org/business_center/procbids/Notes/Fluorosilicic%20Acid.pdf

They spend roughly $648,000 per year on the product.


Fluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6) is an inexpensive liquid by-product of phosphate fertilizer manufacture.[30] It comes in varying strengths, typically 23–25%; because it contains so much water, shipping can be expensive.[31] It is also known as hexafluorosilicic, hexafluosilicic, hydrofluosilicic, and silicofluoric acid.[30]

Not exactly big business it seems.

There goes the "there is big money in pushing floride on helpless people" assertion.

That logical fallacy fails even by its own standard.

[RandomGuy]

flouridation of SA water started just prior to Toyota's commitment to open the plant there. co-in-se-dink?

correlation is not cause.

Basic principle of science.

It rained right after I washed my car. Co-in-se-dink?

Same logical form. Same logical fallacy.

Do you have proof of motive?

[Parker2112]

oooh nifty.

I found the actual bid showing just how much SAWS used and how much they proposed to pay for it.

http://www.saws.org/business_center/procbids/Notes/Fluorosilicic%20Acid.pdf

They spend roughly $648,000 per year on the product.



Not exactly big business it seems.

There goes the "there is big money in pushing floride on helpless people" assertion.

That logical fallacy fails even by its own standard.

at a time when every dollar counts? in this economy? Ill take the savings.

[RandomGuy]

at a time when every dollar counts? in this economy? Ill take the savings.

Fail.

Do you have proof of motive?

[Parker2112]

correlation is not cause.

Basic principle of science.

It rained right after I washed my car? Co-in-se-dink?

Same logical form. Same logical fallacy.

Do you have proof of motive?

raining = something outside of anyones control. ensuring economic vaibility of a plant by ensuring profitable/affordable disposal of toxic wastes = nothing to do with science

[Parker2112]

Fail.

Do you have proof of motive?

motive of what? $ is the driving motive behind our entire civilization. I dont know why motive keeps coming up.

[Parker2112]

take a look at the history of flouridation. Take a look at its origins, at who initially advocated for dosing the public, and who funded those lobbyists. Its not hard to find at all. Ive run out of time.

[rascal]

So how many kids end up like that from fluoride?

I took floride tablets as a kid. Never had a cavity.

[RandomGuy]

at a time when every dollar counts? in this economy? Ill take the savings.

The decision took place in 2002.

Hardly "this economy".

Relative to the expenses of both SAWS and Toyota, it kind of stretches credibility to think that this decision was really heavily influenced by something that amounts to 0.17% of the overall SAWS budget and an even smaller % of Toyota's budget.

(divide the yearly cost 648,000 by either the operating revenue of SAWS, 377,909,000 or that of the billions earned/spent by Toyota)

[Parker2112]

It boils down to govt knows best. dosing to them means win-win. strong economy, less sick people, no geographic polluted hot-spots, and maybe healthier teeth. Industry can turn a profit and fund the scrubbing requirements. And only the weakest/youngest will get sick. But the process needs to be transparent. Just like Iraq, govt knows best. but the process needs transparency.

[Parker2112]

take a look at the history of flouridation. Take a look at its origins, at who initially advocated for dosing the public, and who funded those lobbyists. Its not hard to find at all. Ive run out of time.

[RandomGuy]

motive of what? $ is the driving motive behind our entire civilization. I dont know why motive keeps coming up.

Because you have implied that the decision to floridate SAWS water was driven by the unproven sale of waste floride from Toyota to SAWS.


flouridation of SA water started just prior to Toyota's commitment to open the plant there. co-in-se-dink?

A really unproven assertion.

The company that actually sells the chemical to SAWS, per the bid (there were no competing bidders) is not Toyota.

It is this company:
http://www.pencco.com/

[RandomGuy]

It boils down to govt knows best. dosing to them means win-win. strong economy, less sick people, no geographic polluted hot-spots, and maybe healthier teeth. Industry can turn a profit and fund the scrubbing requirements. And only the weakest/youngest will get sick. But the process needs to be transparent. Just like Iraq, govt knows best. but the process needs transparency.

It all boils down to the fact that you have made several easily debunked claims of motive and conspiracy here, and when pressed fall back on glib generalities.

You can't prove motive, you can barely prove that there is some reason to think it isn't all that effective.

Your theory that "industry can turn a profit" is really really stretching the point.

If it costs less than $700,000 per year for a major city like SA, the overall amount of money involved hardly seems to rise to the level of a vast corporate interest, does it?

The only thing lacking transparency is you.

Tell me what proof of motive you have here or withdraw the assertion.

[Parker2112]

It all boils down to the fact that you have made several easily debunked claims of motive and conspiracy here, and when pressed fall back on glib generalities.

You can't prove motive, you can barely prove that there is some reason to think it isn't all that effective.

Your theory that "industry can turn a profit" is really really stretching the point.

If it costs less than $700,000 per year for a major city like SA, the overall amount of money involved hardly seems to rise to the level of a vast corporate interest, does it?

The only thing lacking transparency is you.

Tell me what proof of motive you have here or withdraw the assertion.

700k, in addition to the corresponding reduction in otherwise-necessary disposal costs, andaccount for the fact that these emitters/sources dont exist in every town/city (far from it), but the product is sold to most municipalities.

Do that math for me please.

[Parker2112]

It boils down to govt knows best. dosing to them means win-win. strong economy, less sick people, no geographic polluted hot-spots, and maybe healthier teeth. Industry can turn a profit and fund the scrubbing requirements. And only the weakest/youngest will get sick. But the process needs to be transparent. Just like Iraq, govt knows best. but the process needs transparency.

this is actually the argument you want to make. This is the winning argument. This is why your water is dosed.

youre on a dead-end trail.

[Blake]

this is actually the argument you want to make. This is the winning argument. This is why your water is dosed.

youre on a dead-end trail.

Who exactly in the "industry" stands to profit?

Names of corporations or CEOs will suffice.

[Parker2112]

Who exactly in the "industry" stands to profit?

Names of corporations or CEOs will suffice.

lets just say corporations stay out of court, CEOs keep jobs. Shareholders are happy. Employees stay employed. Contracts get paid. Local residents dont get sick. Corps avoid bankruptcy. Fertilizer gets made. Crops yield. Win Win Win Win Win.

Yet the public isnt made privy to the policy decisions. Thats the way it goes when the powers that be know best.

[ChumpDumper]

Toyota makes fertilizer?

[Parker2112]

700k, in addition to the corresponding reduction in otherwise-necessary disposal costs, andaccount for the fact that these emitters/sources dont exist in every town/city (far from it), but the product is sold to most municipalities.

Do that math for me please.



1. how many factories emit sodium flouride?
2. How many municipalities buy?
3. What is the cost to properly dispose?
4. What are the costs of evading emissions requirements? costs to a corp in litigation? costs per capita for those affected? costs for those who become sick? costs to employees who develop symptoms?
5. How much is imported from China?
6 Is the supply from abroad safe?
7. Is anything from China safe as a general rule?
8. How much cost will we bear later if Chinese sodium flourid contains things like arsenic?

waiting for your calculations....

[Blake]

lets just say corporations stay out of court, CEOs keep jobs. Shareholders are happy. Employees stay employed. Contracts get paid. Local residents dont get sick. Corps avoid bankruptcy. Fertilizer gets made. Crops yield. Win Win Win Win Win.

Yet the public isnt made privy to the policy decisions. Thats the way it goes when the powers that be know best.

Strawmen. Lose Lose Lose Lose Lose.

[Parker2112]

Toyota makes fertilizer?

Do some homework on sodium flouride.

[ChumpDumper]

Do some homework on sodium flouride.You are saying Toyota makes sodium fluoride and sells it to SAWS?

Prove it.

[Parker2112]

Strawmen. Lose Lose Lose Lose Lose.

I didnt shift the argument in the least. You dont understand "strawman" arguments.

You dont need names. Industry practices, efficiency, and profitability dont require names.

"these aren't the droids your looking for.."

but for real.

these arent the droids youre looking for.

[Parker2112]

You are saying Toyota makes sodium fluoride and sells it to SAWS?

Prove it.

never said that. That doesnt even have to be the case. If it was that simple, any whistle blower could bring this into public discussion which no one wants. If the point was to keep the business profitable, an arangement so simple would defeat the whole purpose.

[ChumpDumper]

never said that.Then what the hell are you saying about Toyota and fluoride?

[Parker2112]

Then what the hell are you saying about Toyota and fluoride?

that SA began flouridating before Toyota committed.

Do I assume to know if the two are tied? no.
Do I knowthat sodium flouride waste is emitted from that plant? yes.
Does it make me suspicious about the timing? yes.
Do I think that you or I know the details of how sodium flouride gets from source to water supply? Routes, shipping, packaging, etc? no.

Tell me this skeptics: Where does the sodium flouride supply for all these municipalities come from? Name some manufacturers.

I'll wait.

[ChumpDumper]

that SA began flouridating before Toyota committed.And?

I'll wait.

[Parker2112]

And?

I'll wait.

convenient response.

We'll wait.

[ChumpDumper]

Do I think that you or I know the details of how sodium flouride gets from source to water supply? Routes, shipping, packaging, etc?Do I think you even know if sodium fluoride is being used by SAWS?

No.

I won't wait anymore.

[Parker2112]

Do I think you even know if sodium fluoride is being used by SAWS?

No.

I won't wait anymore.

NaF is used to polish chrome and etch glass. educate yourself. or Ill resist waiting and do it for you.

[Winehole23]

Tell me this skeptics: Where does the sodium flouride supply for all these municipalities come from? Name some manufacturers.

I'll wait.This is essentially the same question that Blake just asked you. Make your own damn case, Parker.

We'll wait.

[ChumpDumper]

NaF is used to polish chrome and etch glass. educate yourself. or Ill resist waiting and do it for you.


Do I think you even know if sodium fluoride is being used by SAWS?

No.

I won't wait anymore.

[Parker2112]

This is essentially the same question that Blake just asked you. Make your own damn case, Parker.

We'll wait.

the sources showing NaF is a toxic byproduct from multiple sources and sold for use in drinking water are noted in this thread, either directly or in linked info. I cant rehash this every 2 weeks.

[ChumpDumper]

Wait, are you saying that Toyota etches glass and polishes chrome at its San Antonio assembly plant, then collects all the leftover sodium fluoride from the rags and tools, and sells it to SAWS which then puts it in the water supply?

Is that really your theory?

[Parker2112]

I dont wish to persuade anyone. The info is here, the very same info that I have read/seen/heard is all in this thread somewhere. To each man his own. But its not as simple as "Its a conspiracy theory" or "its a conspiracy." That is all.

[ChumpDumper]

Wait, are you saying that Toyota etches glass and polishes chrome at its San Antonio assembly plant, then collects all the leftover sodium fluoride from the rags and tools, and sells it to SAWS which then puts it in the water supply?

Is that really your theory?

[Parker2112]

Wait, are you saying that Toyota etches glass and polishes chrome at its San Antonio assembly plant, then collects all the leftover sodium fluoride from the rags and tools, and sells it to SAWS which then puts it in the water supply?

Is that really your theory?

aluminum manufacturing results in the same.

Please read. We can discuss afterward.

http://www.fluoride-history.de/chemicals.htm




While Dean´s and Pelton´s source of the fluoride is not mentioned in any of the history books or articles, Wisconsin dentists apparently knew well of the Aluminum Company of America´s interest in selling sodium fluoride, as a letter from dentist John G. Frisch to ALCOA reveals (9):
"Dear Sirs:
It is our understanding that the Aluminum Company of America is one of the largest producers of sodium fluoride. The demand for this material will soon reach astronomical proportions ... P.S.: The attached list of cities is only a starter and it will catch fire in other states very soon."
ALCOA, for its part, ran several advertisements in the Journal of the American Water Works Association (10) offering sodium fluoride for fluoridation:
"ALCOA sodium fluoride is particularly suitable for the fluoridation of water supplies. ... If your community is fluoridating its water supply -or is considering doing so- let us show you how ALCOA sodium fluoride can do the job for you" When the argument was raised that ALCOA´s sodium fluoride is a waste product of their aluminum production (http://www.fluoride-history.de/p-aluminum.htm), the Journal of the American Dental Association was quick to publish a denial presented by ALCOA´s Chemical Sales Manager H. P. Bonebrake in 1955 (11):

[ChumpDumper]

I don't need to read anything else. All I need is an answer to this question I have asked three times now.
Wait, are you saying that Toyota etches glass and polishes chrome at its San Antonio assembly plant, then collects all the leftover sodium fluoride from the rags and tools, and sells it to SAWS which then puts it in the water supply?

Is that really your theory?

[Parker2112]

I don't need to read anything else. All I need is an answer to this question I have asked three times now.

youve stated a theory about tools and rags. I dont recall stating that. You propose an unfeasible scenario, and then impose on my position. A little disingenuous in my book.

I dont feel a need to comment on your theory, other than to say its not mine.

I can admit to what I dont know and admit my own suspicions. Can you?

[ChumpDumper]

youve stated a theory about tools and rags. I dont recall stating that. You propose an unfeasible scenario, and then impose on my position. A little disingenuous in my book.

I dont feel a need to comment on your theory, other than to say its not mine.

I can admit to what I dont know and admit my own suspicions. Can you?Then what the hell is your theory about Toyota and fluoride?

Spell it out.

We're waiting.

[Parker2112]

then what the hell is your theory about toyota and fluoride?

Spell it out.

We're waiting.


that sa began flouridating before toyota committed.

Do i assume to know if the two are tied? No.
Do i knowthat sodium flouride waste is emitted from that plant? Yes.
Does it make me suspicious about the timing? Yes.
Do i think that you or i know the details of how sodium flouride gets from source to water supply? Routes, shipping, packaging, etc? No.

rif.

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously, all you did was prove that Toyota would be a consumer of sodium fluoride if anything, not a producer.

Unless, of course, you are saying that Toyota collects all the used NaF off the tools and rags and sells it to SAWS to put in the water -- but you said that wasn't what you were saying.

[Parker2112]

http://blog.teachstreet.com/wp-uploads/2007/12/judo-throw1.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

rif.So basically you don't know what you are talking about here and don't want to educate yourself further.

OK.

This is where you usually end up, and where you seem to be most comfortable: a position of suspicious ignorance.

[Parker2112]

Seriously, all you did was prove that Toyota would be a consumer of sodium fluoride if anything, not a producer.


this is complete fail. the aluminum finishing requires a vat of the stuff. Do you think it is all consumed? Seriously.

[Parker2112]

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/02/01072.pdf

[ChumpDumper]

this is complete fail. the aluminum finishing requires a vat of the stuff. Do you think it is all consumed? Seriously.So you are saying the rest is collected off the tools and vats and sold to SAWS to put in the water.

Make up your mind.

[Parker2112]

So basically you don't know what you are talking about here and don't want to educate yourself further.

OK.

This is where you usually end up, and where you seem to be most comfortable: a position of suspicious ignorance.

honestly, it would take financial records to prove any connection. You cant think that either one of us can prove/disprove causation from this set of circumstancial facts over an internet connection?

[Parker2112]

so you are saying the rest is collected off the tools and vats and sold to saws to put in the water.

Make up your mind.

spwimm.

[ChumpDumper]

In case you didn't read my edit.
So basically you don't know what you are talking about here and don't want to educate yourself further.

OK.

This is where you usually end up, and where you seem to be most comfortable: a position of suspicious ignorance.This is where I leave you.

I'm sure you will still be in this position when I return.

[Parker2112]

wouldnt ANY NaF waste, from any source, especially from liquid source, have to be refined/processed to remove impurities and make it safe for consumption? What plant even does that? Again, it would take mre investigation, which would not likely prompt municipality cooperation.

[Parker2112]

In case you didn't read my edit.This is where I leave you.

I'm sure you will still be in this position when I return.

You arent dealing with any of the smoking guns: expense, lack of effectiveness for the purpose stated, imfringement of personal liberties by mandating the dosage at a public level, chinese industry stds potentially putting our health at risk.

Way to avoid all the issues that otherwise sink skeptics who dont want to pursue the issue any further at risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist or worse.

:toast

[Parker2112]

you mofos are pushing me to write a book about this shit.

[Parker2112]

under a pen name:lol

[Parker2112]

If I go get the records, I will want blowjobs.

[Blake]

You dont understand "strawman" arguments.

You dont need names. Industry practices, efficiency, and profitability dont require names.


:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Parker2112]

seriously, if I do the requisite research to satisfy you skeptics, I'm sure it would be worth tens of thousands. How can you jackals expect so much for so little? I havent even gotten an offer for a blowjob yet.

[Parker2112]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

what you are asking for is unnecessary to prove the point you are arguing with me. If I prove the point with other facts than you ask for that doesnt mean Ive changed the argument. try to follow when the road gets rocky here...

[Parker2112]

vs. if I change the argument, the new argument then becomes a straw man argument. We are still on the same argument of motive here.

[Parker2112]

you guys have done a fabulous job really. We'll save felatio for some other time :)

[Blake]

what you are asking for is unnecessary to prove the point you are arguing with me. If I prove the point with other facts than you ask for that doesnt mean Ive changed the argument. try to follow when the road gets rocky here...

I'm not arguing anything.

You apparently are here trying to give a persuasive speech to the audience that flouride is bad.

Most of us here in the audience are saying your arguments for fluoride being bad are faulty for numerous reasons that have already been mentioned.

If someone else started a thread on how good fluoride is and was using your poor techniques, they would most likely be getting the same treatment.

[LnGrrrR]

seriously, if I do the requisite research to satisfy you skeptics, I'm sure it would be worth tens of thousands. How can you jackals expect so much for so little? I havent even gotten an offer for a blowjob yet.

If said book is worth tens of thousands, why aren't you out there writing it? :lol

[Blake]

We are still on the same argument of motive here.

which you stated was simply money.

weak.

[Parker2112]

If said book is worth tens of thousands, why aren't you out there writing it? :lol

The book wouldnt even have to pull a profit. The speaking engagements would. And the Alex Jones market will always be there. Which is why Alex Jones is.

[Parker2112]

which you stated was simply money.

weak.

dude. the motive behind most corporate strategies is $. They lobby municipalities to dose for what? $. They entice paid professionals to advocate for the practice how? $. They stand to lose what if lobbyists dont return results? $. Lobbyists actually won, and everyone is happy because of what? $. whats new.

you guys have yet to ask the million dollar motive question. The one that I cant answer, and thus didnt state above.

[Blake]

dude. the motive behind most corporate strategies is $. They lobby municipalities to dose for what? $. They entice paid professionals to advocate for the practice how? $. They stand to lose what if lobbyists dont return results? $. Lobbyists actually won, and everyone is happy because of what? $. whats new.

dude! The amount of money(s) and who is directly depositing it would help you make your case stronger.

Who was/were paying these lobbyists?


you guys have yet to ask the million dollar motive question. The one that I cant answer, and thus didnt state above.

You also can't answer who exactly is getting rich off of fluoride and how much they are getting.

[Winehole23]

what you are asking for is unnecessary to prove the point you are arguing with me. If I prove the point with other facts than you ask for that doesnt mean Ive changed the argument. try to follow when the road gets rocky here...Blake had a simple request for information, one you still refuse to fill. Why?

You seem to think you already won the race. For you, all your allegations and ascriptions relating to fluoridation, as vague as sketchily supported as they all are, win the day and forever put the naysayers to bed.

And now you demand triumphal blowjobs from us all, before you have substantiated even one concrete fact related to the conclusions you arrived at before your own argument in these pages had well begun. Beg the question much?

[Blake]

And now you demand triumphal blowjobs from us all

:lol

I don't know why he'd want blowjobs from people with fluoride filled mouths.

[Parker2112]

dude! The amount of money(s) and who is directly depositing it would help you make your case stronger.

Who was/were paying these lobbyists?



You also can't answer who exactly is getting rich off of fluoride and how much they are getting.

1. a timeline article I linked earlier listed exactly who paid these lobbyists. RIF.

2. No one is getting rich. People are getting dosed so that corps avoid bankruptcy.

[Parker2112]

Blake had a simple request for information, one you still refuse to fill.

I proved corp motive. Easiest thing on gods green earth to know/prove/love.

[Parker2112]

You seem to think you already won the race. For you, all your allegations and ascriptions relating to fluoridation, as vague as sketchily supported as they all are, win the day and forever put the naysayers to bed.



there are plenty of questions that remain. But I cant make you guys mouth those questions. I state what I dont know. My position could be vanquished but not with these weak efforts.

[Blake]

1. a timeline article I linked earlier listed exactly who paid these lobbyists. RIF.

really?

We are on page 9 and you haven't convinced anyone of anything as far as I can tell.

Being that this is the case, I don't care enough to search through 8+ pages looking for it.

[Parker2112]

And now you demand triumphal blowjobs from us all, before you have substantiated even one concrete fact related to the conclusions you arrived at before your own argument in these pages had well begun.

Ill take satisfaction however I can get it. Voulez-vous coucher avec moi (ce soir)?

:lol

[Blake]

2. No one is getting rich. People are getting dosed so that corps avoid bankruptcy.

I recall Toyota being mentioned.......is Toyota trying to avoid bankruptcy?

What are other corps trying to avoid bankruptcy by putting fluoride in our drinking water?

[Parker2112]

really?

We are on page 9 and you haven't convinced anyone of anything as far as I can tell.

Being that this is the case, I don't care enough to search through 8+ pages looking for it.

link aint enough? You want me to come over to youre location and scream the shit in your ear or what?:lol

[Parker2112]

I recall Toyota being mentioned.......is Toyota trying to avoid bankruptcy?

What are other corps trying to avoid bankruptcy by putting fluoride in our drinking water?

I see now...you guys havent followed from the start, or even the middle. every few pages I am supposed to start from scratch. now the disconnect is clear.

[Winehole23]

@4:20PM:

Yeah, you make a hostile inference and your prior belief in it propels you across the finish line.

Works like magic, much easier too; you just draw the goal line wherever your argument falls down and call it a touchdown.

[Blake]

link aint enough? You want me to come over to youre location and scream the shit in your ear or what?:lol

"I don't care enough to search for the link"

feel free to post it again if you like.

If not....eh.

[Parker2112]

you folks think you can pop in from time to time and scepticism will be enough to carry the day, previous sources cited be damned. you folks and your allmighty skepticism.

[Parker2112]

Yeah, you just make a shady inference, and your prior belief in it propels you across the finish line. Solid.

there is no finish line. or else the one with the goods would be at city council meeting like yesterday, champ.

[Parker2112]

sometimes its about asking the right questions, and find your own answers. trouble dealing with ambiguity much, wh?

[Blake]

I see now...you guys havent followed from the start, or even the middle. every few pages I am supposed to start from scratch. now the disconnect is clear.

You started this thread 40+ days ago.

I admit to such a disconnect to things said on page 1 or 2.

[Winehole23]

So enough with the premature touchdown dances. You ain't Billy "White Shoes."

[Parker2112]

I proved corp motive. Easiest thing on gods green earth to know/prove/love.

not hostile ITL.

[Blake]

sometimes its about asking the right questions, and find your own answers. trouble dealing with ambiguity much, wh?

You apparently have no trouble with being ambiguous.

If you can't even answer your own tough questions then why do you still believe in this conspiracy?

[Blake]

I proved corp motive. Easiest thing on gods green earth to know/prove/love.

You have proven nothing.

You claim it keeps corps from going bankrupt but can't provide which corps and how much they are saving/making by fluoridating my water.