Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

[spursncowboys]

Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100805/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_carrier_killer

[hater]

you beat me to it.

if true, USA is fucked. This reminds me of when you play Civ4 and you have tons of knight units ready to attack an opponent and he discovers gunpowder.

US carriers to be obsolete

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/05/dong-feng-21d-chinese-mis_n_672166.html

[spursncowboys]

I don't think we are allowed to post AP articles. ST might get sued if we do. That's why I put the link.

Yeah this is definitely a game changer. It's a good thing we aren't investing r&d into silly things like missile shields. I wonder how long the DOD knew about this?

[Parker2112]

so why cant we get out of iraq/afghan and use some of that money to start investing in our military tech again? not that they arent investing anyway

[hater]

I don't think we are allowed to post AP articles. ST might get sued if we do. That's why I put the link.

Yeah this is definitely a game changer. It's a good thing we aren't investing r&d into silly things like missile shields. I wonder how long the DOD knew about this?

China could get their money spent back selling this to Iran, Algeria, etc...

[clambake]

is anyone surprised by an improvement over the exocet?

[MannyIsGod]

is anyone surprised by an improvement over the exocet?

An improvement over a missile that is what - 3 decades old?

Never.


Invade China, IMO.

[clambake]

An improvement over a missile that is what - 3 decades old?

Never.


Invade China, IMO.

no shit. another article for the knuckledraggers to feel the red scare.

[coyotes_geek]

Invade China, IMO.

Correction. Ask China for another loan, then invade them.

[hater]

that's one big dong

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Chinese_Dongfeng_Missile_railway_transport.jpg

[spursncowboys]

Correction. Ask China for another loan, then invade them.
:lol
that reminds me of the guy from sopranos that borrowed money from the gay mobster.

[MannyIsGod]

Correction. Ask China for another loan, then invade them.

:lmao

[hater]

invade china is like saying invade Mars.

impossible even if we wanted.

[MannyIsGod]

In any event, its not about a missiles speed or a missile's range or blah blah blah. Its about how is that missile going to reliably track a US carrier group in a wartime situation. C cubed is where we smash the shit out of every other nation out there and its the reason for our military advantage.

[MannyIsGod]

invade china is like saying invade Mars.

impossible even if we wanted.

Only because we have a democrat in office.

[hater]

Only because we have a democrat in office.

nope. Even if we had Hitler in command. Still impossible.

[Cane]

Good luck trying to sink an aircraft carrier especially with experimental Chinese missile tech. With satellites above and the US waging war across the world we should also be able to track those sites and its not like carriers are sent alone - they're in huge groups with defenses like anti-missile capabilities from the carrier itself and ships like Aegis cruisers that also regularly prepare for such attacks. Then there's the US submarines that can slip in unnoticed with missiles primed in the event of a carrier attack. Not to mention the US stealth aircraft available, spec-ops, etc.

[spursncowboys]

the Chi-Coms are our allie. They would never wage war on us or our allies. They would definitely never invade and suppress groups of people or kill millions of their citizens. We should just assume that we will always be allies with them.

[Trainwreck2100]

ain't that what lasers are for?

[CosmicCowboy]

the Chi-Coms are our allie. They would never wage war on us or our allies. They would definitely never invade and suppress groups of people or kill millions of their citizens. We should just assume that we will always be allies with them.

I see what you did there.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm glad the federal government owes the ChiComs what, a trillion? :greedy

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm glad the federal government owes the ChiComs what, a trillion? :greedy

Last I heard about 800 Billion, but whats a few billion among friends?

[coyotes_geek]

I'm glad the federal government owes the ChiComs what, a trillion? :greedy

Maybe if we ask nicely the Chinese will bankroll another stimulus package for us.

[Wild Cobra]

Good luck trying to sink an aircraft carrier especially with experimental Chinese missile tech. With satellites above and the US waging war across the world we should also be able to track those sites and its not like carriers are sent alone - they're in huge groups with defenses like anti-missile capabilities from the carrier itself and ships like Aegis cruisers that also regularly prepare for such attacks. Then there's the US submarines that can slip in unnoticed with missiles primed in the event of a carrier attack. Not to mention the US stealth aircraft available, spec-ops, etc.
Rejmember, it's very hard to his a missile with a missile, and liberals never like that technology.

The way to sink a carrier is by submarine, with a torpedo using cavitation, and a large enough explosion several hundred feet below the carrier.

Missile is a good choice too, but more expensive for close distances, or where they don't have a submarine nearby.

[panic giraffe]

Only because we have a democrat in office.

um...didn't FDR/truman take down the whole fucking world?

[EmptyMan]

It's all good. The ol' U S of A has been holding back the laser beams of destruction for days like these.


Thanks Roswell.

[LnGrrrR]

Look, no actual country is going to attack the States. It's like walking up to a tiger and punching him. You think you've seen national ferver after 9/11? If China attacked us, you could triple that... there'd be calls from the right and left-wing to bomb the shit out of China to the Stone Age.

Taking down one, two, etc etc carriers still leaves us with hundreds of nukes, planes, bombs, soldiers....

[MannyIsGod]

um...didn't FDR/truman take down the whole fucking world?

I know I didn't use blue font but come the fuck on. :lmao

[MannyIsGod]

Look, no actual country is going to attack the States. It's like walking up to a tiger and punching him. You think you've seen national ferver after 9/11? If China attacked us, you could triple that... there'd be calls from the right and left-wing to bomb the shit out of China to the Stone Age.

Taking down one, two, etc etc carriers still leaves us with hundreds of nukes, planes, bombs, soldiers....

A carrier isn't a self defense weapon. Its a power projection weapon. Neocons don't like threats against their ability to project power.

[LnGrrrR]

A carrier isn't a self defense weapon. Its a power projection weapon. Neocons don't like threats against their ability to project power.

To me, though, it's a hollow threat. Sure, they have the capability to take down a supercarrier, but would they actually use it? It's highly doubtful, unless shit really hits the fan. But let's face it, no conventional country is going to war with us, no way, no how.

Third party actors, like terrorists, can actually fight us much more effectively, as we are bound by Geneva Codes (and rightfully so), as well as being able to slip back into their own territory. But a conventional army? Yeah, not so much. Wed bomb the crap out of them.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't disagree with you man. I'm just telling you that people like SNC will use this to rattle sabers. I'm not approving of it.

:lol

[LnGrrrR]

I don't disagree with you man. I'm just telling you that people like SNC will use this to rattle sabers. I'm not approving of it.

:lol

Understood, and I agree fully with you about neocons using this to rattle sabers.

[spursncowboys]

A carrier isn't a self defense weapon. Its a power projection weapon. Neocons don't like threats against their ability to project power.

because that is all the us navy does is project power. We don't keep the waterways of the world free for trade at no cost to them. Those waterways would just stay open because of our projections.

[MannyIsGod]

because that is all the us navy does is project power. We don't keep the waterways of the world free for trade at no cost to them. Those waterways would just stay open because of our projections.

:lmao

Not this shit again.

[LnGrrrR]

because that is all the us navy does is project power. We don't keep the waterways of the world free for trade at no cost to them. Those waterways would just stay open because of our projections.

Here's what I don't get:

Conservatives are opposed to government handouts, because they (rightfully in some cases) ask, "If the government is handing out money, why should people work?"

But then they look at the global stage, and say, "America needs to be the policeman of the world!" If we're willing to provide defensive capabilities for the rest of the world, why would other countries fund their militaries? Wouldn't they just piggyback off us?

[MiamiHeat]

Here's what I don't get:

Conservatives are opposed to government handouts, because they (rightfully in some cases) ask, "If the government is handing out money, why should people work?"

But then they look at the global stage, and say, "America needs to be the policeman of the world!" If we're willing to provide defensive capabilities for the rest of the world, why would other countries fund their militaries? Wouldn't they just piggyback off us?

Yup, great point.

I am totally for scaling back world military operations. We have too many problems at home, anyway.

[spursncowboys]

Look, no actual country is going to attack the States. It's like walking up to a tiger and punching him. You think you've seen national ferver after 9/11? If China attacked us, you could triple that... there'd be calls from the right and left-wing to bomb the shit out of China to the Stone Age.

Taking down one, two, etc etc carriers still leaves us with hundreds of nukes, planes, bombs, soldiers....
why will they not attack us? What has created this sense of safety?

[spursncowboys]

Here's what I don't get:

Conservatives are opposed to government handouts, because they (rightfully in some cases) ask, "If the government is handing out money, why should people work?"

But then they look at the global stage, and say, "America needs to be the policeman of the world!" If we're willing to provide defensive capabilities for the rest of the world, why would other countries fund their militaries? Wouldn't they just piggyback off us?
Don't get me wrong, they are definitely getting a free lunch out of our military. But what would be the alternative? Who would do it, if not us?
The vacuum would be filled by someone and with the time it takes to build naval vessels, it would probably be someone who already has a pretty large size navy. Then they have to take resources to fund for their buildup to maintain their new found area.

[spursncowboys]

:lmao

Not this shit again.
Today, you have outdone yourself- which I thought was something that would never happen.

[ChumpDumper]

why will they not attack us? What has created this sense of safety?Why will they attack us? What has created this false sense of fear?

[spursncowboys]

Every country, with abundant resources, in history has been attacked.

[ChumpDumper]

Every country, with abundant resources, in history has been attacked.By every other country?

Are you saying war with China is inevitable?

[spursncowboys]

why don't you answer my question troll.

[ChumpDumper]

why don't you answer my question troll.Which one? I see several.

[LnGrrrR]

why will they not attack us? What has created this sense of safety?

A shitload of nukes.

[LnGrrrR]

Don't get me wrong, they are definitely getting a free lunch out of our military. But what would be the alternative? Who would do it, if not us?
The vacuum would be filled by someone and with the time it takes to build naval vessels, it would probably be someone who already has a pretty large size navy. Then they have to take resources to fund for their buildup to maintain their new found area.

What's wrong with that scenario? Isn't that how the free market works? If other countries are getting abused by pirates, let their citizens vote for a better military.

[spursncowboys]

What's wrong with that scenario? Isn't that how the free market works? If other countries are getting abused by pirates, let their citizens vote for a better military.
we don't fight pirates for other countries. its usually in our interests. I was referring to to other countries like russia and china.

[ChumpDumper]

Do you think the US is the only country with a navy?

[EmptyMan]

Let's keep it real though. China may have ninjas, but we still have Chuck Norris.



Threat level minimum imo.

[LnGrrrR]

we don't fight pirates for other countries. its usually in our interests. I was referring to to other countries like russia and china.

Yes, but fighting those pirates is in the interest of other countries too. Why not let them fund it and piggyback off them?

[spursncowboys]

Let's keep it real though. China may have ninjas, but we still have Chuck Norris.



Threat level minimum imo.
don't forget van damn

[ElNono]

don't forget van damn

He's Belgian...

[ElNono]

Is this thing made out of plastic?

I wonder how much stuff the US Military uses have a 'Made in China' tag on it.

[John Terry]

Here's what I don't get:

Conservatives are opposed to government handouts, because they (rightfully in some cases) ask, "If the government is handing out money, why should people work?"

But then they look at the global stage, and say, "America needs to be the policeman of the world!" If we're willing to provide defensive capabilities for the rest of the world, why would other countries fund their militaries? Wouldn't they just piggyback off us?

if every country is disarmed then US military can also be dismissed for retrenchment. the problem is there's always some malicious country/group who's all-time ready to arouse some riots once US military loosens its nerve. Some of US allies whereas are facing far less threats than US does. Some terror attack may still happen in some allies, like the bombing in Madrid etc., but those attacks were mostly launched by the domestic terrors (like the Basque bastards in Madrid bombing). Some spare defense would be well enough to protect the allies like SK Japan etc., as it's still the US who's targeted on by the biggest terror threats like Taliban etc....

[LnGrrrR]

Terry,

Yes, the US is mostly targeted... but that could be due to the fact that we're the world's biggest power, and we're always over there. If Britain was still big, terorrists would be going after them more often than us.

[John Terry]

Do you think the US is the only country with a navy?

without aircraft carriers it's fair to say a country has basically no marine force. maybe they have the tech to projectile a missile to hit a target hundreds of miles away, but the target has to be a static one unlike the aircraft carrier which keeps moving all the time.

[ChumpDumper]

without aircraft carriers it's fair to say a country has basically no marine force. maybe they have the tech to projectile a missile to hit a target hundreds of miles away, but the target has to be a static one unlike the aircraft carrier which keeps moving all the time. Do you think the US is the only country with a marine force?

[z0sa]

China makes me shutter. Here we are, fighting two wars and falling in terrible debt, with a collapsing economy back home, looking the ass in front of the world. What's China doing? Developing game-changing technology, loaning us money, and biding their time. China is going to be a unified, highly developed, and powerful nation in 30 years, and we're still going to be good ol' Americans: a bunch of bickering, war-mongering, partisan, Made-In-China lovin' fucks.

[MiamiHeat]

China makes me shutter. Here we are, fighting two wars and falling in terrible debt, with a collapsing economy back home, looking the ass in front of the world. What's China doing? Developing game-changing technology, loaning us money, and biding their time. China is going to be a unified, highly developed, and powerful nation in 30 years, and we're still going to be good ol' Americans: a bunch of bickering, war-mongering, partisan, Made-In-China lovin' fucks.

ha ha ha.

As soon as China tries anything, say goodbye to the debt we owed them. Thanks for the money, China!

If they ever hope to keep getting paid, they better not do anything :)

and even if they did, the world knows we have enough nuclear weapons to blow the entire globe to pieces. nobody would try.


sleep well, little children. china isn't coming to get you

[DarkReign]

China makes me shutter. Here we are, fighting two wars and falling in terrible debt, with a collapsing economy back home, looking the ass in front of the world. What's China doing? Developing game-changing technology, loaning us money, and biding their time. China is going to be a unified, highly developed, and powerful nation in 30 years, and we're still going to be good ol' Americans: a bunch of bickering, war-mongering, partisan, Made-In-China lovin' fucks.

Cut.
Print.
Truth.

[ElNono]

ha ha ha.

As soon as China tries anything, say goodbye to the debt we owed them. Thanks for the money, China!

If they ever hope to keep getting paid, they better not do anything :)

and even if they did, the world knows we have enough nuclear weapons to blow the entire globe to pieces. nobody would try.

sleep well, little children. china isn't coming to get you

You're talking right now, zosa is talking 30 years from now.
The reality is that if we don't do something about the ever extending debt, our economy will crumble sooner or later. Meaning all that spending on the military simply won't be possible, because we will be effectively broke.

And all those ICBMs are nice, but sooner than later, at the pace the tech is going, and with a country that both has the tech and the economic means to do it, having missile interceptors (aka missile defense system) is not a far fetched idea at all.

So, yeah, I don't think China is coming to get us right now, maybe not in the next 10 years, but eventually, if we don't get our act together, and when we manage to lose the nuclear threat (which is going to happen), then it could get really hairy out there. Specially if we're fucking broke.

[Nbadan]

...the article says China could sink an aircraft carrier IF the weapon becomes operational in a year or two AND the U.S. doesn't come up with some countermeasures - which they always do...

For another thing, it says this is a mach 10 weapon. The U.S. has been testing a scram-jet engine for a couple of years that can supposedly go that fast, so somehow China already has one and it's almost operational. Right ...

Last, IF china has a mach 10 weapon (they don't), something going that fast isn't exactly "nimble" and can turn on a dime. But still it has to hit a carrier moving at over 30 knots.

Fear and hype people, fear and hype ...

[ElNono]

...the article says China could sink an aircraft carrier IF the weapon becomes operational in a year or two AND the U.S. doesn't come up with some countermeasures - which they always do...

For another thing, it says this is a mach 10 weapon. The U.S. has been testing a scram-jet engine for a couple of years that can supposedly go that fast, so somehow China already has one and it's almost operational. Right ...

Last, IF china has a mach 10 weapon (they don't), something going that fast isn't exactly "nimble" and can turn on a dime. But still it has to hit a carrier moving at over 30 knots.

Fear and hype people, fear and hype ...

It's a missile, not a plane. It could easily be rocket powered. It doesn't need an engine. Scramjet engines like the X51 ones actually need to be accelerated to Mach 7 in order to be used, and that's done using a detachable rocket.

As far as accuracy, well, when you're moving at almost 128 miles per minute, you just need to aim right.

What I'd be more interested in knowing is what's it's range.

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong. It could simply be a smoke screen also.

[byrontx]

Is this thing made out of plastic?

I wonder how much stuff the US Military uses have a 'Made in China' tag on it.

This is what I consider spooky. So much of our networking equipment is manufactured in China (the Lantronix equipment we install in military networks, for example) that one has to assume that China has thoroughly infiltrated our military networks. I suppose the same is true of other networks as well including political and commericial networks. I am sure that we have some great tricks up our sleeves but in the cyber-war aspect of of a modern war it looks like China has the edge.

[LnGrrrR]

And all those ICBMs are nice, but sooner than later, at the pace the tech is going, and with a country that both has the tech and the economic means to do it, having missile interceptors (aka missile defense system) is not a far fetched idea at all.


Missile defense systems are definitely not fail-proof, and there are none that I know of that can counter the amount of missiles we could theoretically launch. Not to mention we have superior air capability.

[LnGrrrR]

This is what I consider spooky. So much of our networking equipment is manufactured in China (the Lantronix equipment we install in military networks, for example) that one has to assume that China has thoroughly infiltrated our military networks. I suppose the same is true of other networks as well including political and commericial networks. I am sure that we have some great tricks up our sleeves but in the cyber-war aspect of of a modern war it looks like China has the edge.

Lantronix? Eh, maybe in some places. I know the AF is mostly Cisco-based infra, with some Foundry and Sun mixed in.

And I severely doubt that China's cyberwar capabilities are greater than our militaries, or that they've infiltrated our military networks. And they definitely don't have a major presence on SIPRNet since it's isolated, which is where most of the classified info resides.

China's best way to get intel is good ol' fashiong HUMINT. And I say this as someone who is a network technician in the AF, active duty. (Of course, I'm seeing things from a low level, I don't have Pentagon level access or anything, and if I did, I wouldn't be saying something about that anyhow.)

[Winehole23]

What I'd be more interested in knowing is what's it's range.About 900 miles, but from what little I've read, the missile guidance may not be quite up to snuff yet.

[admiralsnackbar]

Here's what I don't get:

Conservatives are opposed to government handouts, because they (rightfully in some cases) ask, "If the government is handing out money, why should people work?"

But then they look at the global stage, and say, "America needs to be the policeman of the world!" If we're willing to provide defensive capabilities for the rest of the world, why would other countries fund their militaries? Wouldn't they just piggyback off us?

The "policemen of the world" thing is PR, I think. We're protecting trade partners, and this protection is monetized by discounted tariffs on our goods and/or cheap access to X country's natural resources.

We don't protect any nation, just those that offer us market share, impede our competitors' strategic partnerships, or offer us natural resources.

[ChuckD]

Let's keep it real though. China may have ninjas, but we still have Chuck Norris.



Threat level minimum imo.

China has zero ninjas, buttbrain.

[spursncowboys]

He's Belgian...
It aint were you from- it's where you at.

[MannyIsGod]

The guidance isn't going to be there. How are they going to track our carriers? Land based radar? HA, those are gone in the first stage of a modern war against the US if they're on. Airborne radar? Does China even have any AWAACs capability? If they do they're going to be bone fairly soon also if they come within range of a carrier's air group. You can't launch missile's off old satellite data unless you want to blow up empty patches of water.

[ElNono]

About 900 miles, but from what little I've read, the missile guidance may not be quite up to snuff yet.

Expected.

[ElNono]

Does China even have any AWAACs capability?

Since 2005: KJ-2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJ-2000)

[Wild Cobra]

A shitload of nukes.
One thing they are afraid of is someone who is not a representative of a country, but gets a nuke or two.

27,000 Nuclear Weapons. One Is Missing.

[Ignignokt]

The ridiculous against conservatives wanting to defend ourselves abroad is ignorant.

Not wanting to give handouts and wanting to protect our national intersest is not the same thing.


It's in our rational self interest to protect the US from attacks, there is no altruistic motive for it, the only example that it would be altruistic would be if we wanted to nation build. But defense alone is not a contradiction of individual rights and conservative philosophy.

[ChumpDumper]

One thing they are afraid of is someone who is not a representative of a country, but gets a nuke or two.What does that have to do with China?

[byrontx]

Lantronix? Eh, maybe in some places. I know the AF is mostly Cisco-based infra, with some Foundry and Sun mixed in.

And I severely doubt that China's cyberwar capabilities are greater than our militaries, or that they've infiltrated our military networks. And they definitely don't have a major presence on SIPRNet since it's isolated, which is where most of the classified info resides.

China's best way to get intel is good ol' fashiong HUMINT. And I say this as someone who is a network technician in the AF, active duty. (Of course, I'm seeing things from a low level, I don't have Pentagon level access or anything, and if I did, I wouldn't be saying something about that anyhow.)

The Lantronix unit I was referring to is not a server on the order of Cisco's products but a simple device that enables non-computer equipment to be accessed by a network. It is used in, ironically, video surveillance and fire suppression systems among others. Devices such as this are ubiquitous in environments such as military networks. That was just an example of how hardware items can be used to defeat network security having worms and such programmed on e-proms and such devices that can be activated when needed.

I believe it was in Desert Storm that a technician installed printer drivers in Iraq's radar sites that generated "ghosts" during the initial attack that had the Iraqis going nuts shooting at phantoms while we bombed the shit out of them.

Any "Made in China" electronics should be viewed very suspiciously but in many cases they are the only source or at the component level you cannot not determine the country of origin.
.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone watch Firefly?

[ElNono]

Cisco shit is mainly built in China too. Obviously, the software is what matters, and that's probably made in India :angel

[Wild Cobra]

Cisco shit is mainly built in China too. Obviously, the software is what matters, and that's probably made in India :angel
My Lenovo computer and monitor are Chinese. Would have liked to buy American, but what is made here now, and would they be as good of specs, and for how much more money?

[ElNono]

The best you can do is assembled in Mexico, probably. We just can't compete manufacturing that stuff.

[spursncowboys]

My Lenovo computer and monitor are Chinese. Would have liked to buy American, but what is made here now, and would they be as good of specs, and for how much more money?
A story one of my professors told me was about the last microwave company in america. He couldn't understand why they were kicking his ass. So he took a trip to japan and when he got there he counted more engineers working there than laborers. He liquidated his company as soon as he got back.

[Nbadan]

...you see the difference in American goods and foreign goods in American cars.....American car companies excel at hitting the American psyche with sleek looking car designs, some Dodge cars look better than Lexus, BMW, or Infinity, but under the hood they are very often technologically inferior to foreign made cars...and that reliability is what people who want a nice looking car that isn't going to cost them a lot to operate want.....

....America educates more engineers than any country in the world, but we don't keep that talent here...that needs to change...

[Wild Cobra]

...you see the difference in American goods and foreign goods in American cars.....American car companies excel at hitting the American psyche with sleek looking car designs, some Dodge cars look better than Lexus, BMW, or Infinity, but under the hood they are very often technologically inferior to foreign made cars...and that reliability is what people who want a nice looking car that isn't going to cost them a lot to operate want.....

....America educates more engineers than any country in the world, but we don't keep that talent here...that needs to change...
Maybe we simply need to kick out the unions, which fosters lowest common denominator work ethics, making a comparable product costing way too much.

[spursncowboys]

you think a dodge looks better than a beamer, lexus, infinity or acura? I disagree completely.
Maybe it's a stereotype but I thought with the amount of people in India and their high percentage of engineer degrees, it would be them. I know we historically used to lead the world in engineers but doubt it now.

[LnGrrrR]

One thing they are afraid of is someone who is not a representative of a country, but gets a nuke or two.

Yeah, I mentioned that upthread. China isn't ever going to officially go to war with us.

[Nbadan]

Maybe we simply need to kick out the unions, which fosters lowest common denominator work ethics, making a comparable product costing way too much.

I don't see how blaming the unions helps, if anything union jobs typically pay better and offer better benefits, something we need now that companies are making record profits, crappy products or not, but employee benefits keep getting slashed....how is that going to help when manufacturers can produce their good somewhere else at 1/20 the cost of operating labor costs than in the U.S? Its a cute scapegoat for the GOP and global, new-world-order types like yourself, but it false apart when you look at real world facts..

[Nbadan]

Yeah, I mentioned that upthread. China isn't ever going to officially go to war with us.

Has China ever declared war on anyone in its history...I think Japan struck first during the world wars, right? ..if the Great Wall doesn't represent a hunker down mentality, I don't know what does...

[Wild Cobra]

I don't see how blaming the unions helps, if anything union jobs typically pay better and offer better benefits, something we need now that companies are making record profits, crappy products or not, but employee benefits keep getting slashed....how is that going to help when manufacturers can produce their good somewhere else at 1/20 the cost of operating labor costs than in the U.S? Its a cute scapegoat for the GOP and global, new-world-order types like yourself, but it false apart when you look at real world facts..
Sorry, but I've seen too much stupidity in union contracts that allow the insane to run the asylum.

[Nbadan]

Sorry, but I've seen too much stupidity in union contracts that allow the insane to run the asylum.

....point made, but the unions aren't responsible for R&D...to compete American companies must offer the reliability foreign cars offer, protection for consumers, and a rising resale value ....which takes time...

[Wild Cobra]

....point made, but the unions aren't responsible for R&D...to compete American companies must offer the reliability foreign cars offer, protection for consumers, and a rising resale value ....which takes time...
Which requires a quality workforce, and the unions have their hands tied at eliminating poor workers.

[Blake]

Correction. Ask China for another loan, then invade them.

Zhing! :lol

[Blake]

don't forget van damn


He's Belgian...

:lmao