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spursncowboys
08-07-2010, 05:06 PM
a cross-section of the jobless recovery


aug 6 2010, 1:30 pm et | http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/front/images/icons/social/comments.gif comment (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/08/a-cross-section-of-the-jobless-recovery/61069/#disqus_thread)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/06/business/economy/economix-06government/economix-06government-custom1.jpg


the economy lost 131,000 jobs in july, and most of that came from the federal government slashing 143,000 temporary census positions. The private sector picked up about half that figure, 71,000 jobs. State and local governments cut 48,000. Those are the numbers. Economix brings the charts (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/state-and-local-government-jobs-take-a-beating/).

Hiring by sector gives you a sense of the diverse topography of our jobs picture. The federal jobs picture looks like the andes. The private sector looks like an upside town plateau, or wide river bed. State and local looks like a savanna.

State and local government jobs have stayed remarkably steady through the recession, mostly due to the recovery act, which has sent $140 billion to help states with their entitlement burden, including health care, education and income security measures like unemployment insurance. We've plugged their revenue leak up to now, but congress doesn't have much appetite for more stimulus spending through 2011. The census employment inclined has turned into a vertiginous peak, and the private sector isn't ready the catch the hundreds of thousands of people falling off the federal payroll.

This is what a jobless recovery looks like. So why isn't the private sector powering up? I outlined a couple reasons here (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/07/a-grand-unified-theory-of-the-jobless-recovery/60409/), including: Globalization, executive compensation trends, and the rise of reluctant part-time employment. Businesses are blaming the administration for polluting the air with uncertainty about taxes and regulations, but it's not entirely clear what the white house could do now to make businesses more certain (is there even such a thing as certainty in the world of profit and competition?). The stimulus well has been tapped. The bush tax cuts are creating fissures in both parties. If there is some magic statement the white house could make that would make america's non-financial companies respond, "why didn't you say so before! Now we're all set to fill up our new factories with fresh hires," i would, sincerely, like to hear it.


a grand unified theory of the jobless recovery

jul 26 2010, 1:10 pm et | http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/front/images/icons/social/comments.gif comment (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/07/a-grand-unified-theory-of-the-jobless-recovery/60409/#disqus_thread)
something's not righthttp://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2010/16/us/201016usc305.gif.

In most recessions in the last 60 years, jobs recovered soon after the economy healed. But in the last three downturns -- the early 90s, the early 00s, and today -- companies continued to slash jobs and hold off hiring for months, even years, after profits returned. In the current recession, many commentators are perplexed that corporations are sitting on their largest cash pile ever rather than investing in new workers.

who or what can we blame? four things.

Start at the top with executive pay, says robert j. Gordon, a northwestern economist, in a new paper (http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/economics/gordon/aeashort_proofs_100408.pdf). The share of executive compensation taking the form of stock options increased by 55% in the 1990s. That made the big suits particularly sensitive to downturns in the stock market, which has collapsed twice in the last decade, after the tech and housing bubbles burst.

Executive pay depends on high stock prices. High stock prices depend on high quarterly profits. High quarterly profits in a downturn depend on lower costs, and the fastest route to lower costs is to slash workers while the economy suffers. That's why "industries experiencing the steepest declines in profits in 2000-02 had the largest declines in employment and largest increases in productivity," gordon writes.

That's not all. While sacrificing workers for higher profit became de rigeur, a combination of factors also made mass layoffs attractive. Higher immigration and imports, the rising cost of medical care, and lower labor union penetration -- all of these factors encourage firms to reduce hours faster than we might expect.

Third, technology has made many middle tier while-collar jobs "vulnerable to replacement by computers or outsourcing. As gordon writes: "middle-level white collar employees have been turned into mere commodities by the ubiquity of substitution between people and computers."

finally, there's the rise of reluctant part-time employment -- which bls counts as broad unemployment. One way to think of this group is to imagine the economy as a fleet of pick-up trucks. In good times, the truck cabin is big enough to offer plenty of space to almost everybody who wants a seat. But in this downturn, the big employers swapped for cheaper trucks with a smaller cabin and bigger cargo space and stuffed part-timers, contractors, freelancers, and interns in the back. Employers realize that they can get away with more people without benefits in the bed and fewer people with cushy spots in the cab. The part-time economy is here to stay (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0cbwqfjac&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.theatlantic.com%2fbusiness%2f archive%2f2010%2f04%2fthe-recession-is-mainstreaming-the-part-time-economy%2f39229%2f&ei=il5ntodsnot78aat86q2&usg=afqjcneqjohqqcxdyyn9_mkty5xywj9i5a&sig2=3nkdk7osipiimjgudazwoa).

It's common for critics of the administration to blame the jobs crisis on obama's health care plan, or to mock the white house for predicting the recovery act would keep unemployment below 8 percent, when instead it soared above 10 percent with the stimulus. For sure, the white house's economic policy has been stop-start and full of half measures. But studies like this are important reminders that the new millennium has created a new kind of economy and a new kind of recession. Jobless recoveries now appear to be the new normal. We need a menu of economic policies that recognize why, and try to combat the new reality.

His reasoning of how to increase quarterly profits is too simplified even for an op-ed. Not all companies, in downturn, will lower costs to increase profits. Slash workers while the economy is suffering isn't accurate. This is the best chance for companies to increase their market size at a discount. Sure there are companies who have to cut employees to survive, but with him talking about ceo's and ... My wife called me to do something and I left for hours. I have no idea where I was so I'm just going to post it and try and get back to this.

ChumpDumper
08-07-2010, 05:09 PM
So the number of private sector jobs went up last month?

Is that good news?

boutons_deux
08-07-2010, 05:12 PM
"to increase their market size"

yeah, right, when consumers and businesses aren't buying anything, iow, your "market" is cratered. Corps are sitting on something like $2T in cash.

The best way to increase your market share in a down/decreasing market is to hold on while your competitors fold. bigger %age of a smaller market.

Wild Cobra
08-07-2010, 05:23 PM
I wonder what the chart would look like if it were indexed to population?

DMX7
08-08-2010, 02:32 AM
Republicans love to have it both ways. When the census jobs are created, they moan about artificial job creation (and they'd be right if they stopped there), but when the public sector census jobs expire, then they blame it on the failing economy.

Wild Cobra
08-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Republicans love to have it both ways. When the census jobs are created, they moan about artificial job creation (and they'd be right if they stopped there), but when the public sector census jobs expire, then they blame it on the failing economy.
I see it differently. The conservatives.. and republicas pointed out these were temporary numbers that should not be considered for actual economic growth, yet the left wanted to use them for that. now the right, is making the left eat the cake they cooked.

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 02:06 PM
So, the private sector job growth is bad?

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 02:11 PM
So, the private sector job growth is bad?

The economy is great Chump. After all, this is the Summer of Recovery!

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 02:12 PM
The economy is great Chump. After all, this is the Summer of Recovery!So, the private sector job growth is a bad sign?

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 02:16 PM
So, the private sector job growth is a bad sign?

I'm glad to see any job growth, but unfortunately it is statistically insignificant. We are adding heads to the potential workforce faster than we are adding jobs.

BTW, so far San Antonio hasn't been hit that hard but IMHO it's coming. I've been doing some unofficial polling of other business owners I know around town and it's looking pretty grim. A friend of mine that owns a big building supply that sells commercial as well as residential says his business is off 50% just in the last year. That ain't good.

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm glad to see any job growth, but unfortunately it is statistically insignificant. We are adding heads to the potential workforce faster than we are adding jobs.Which heads? The ones who lost government jobs?

clambake
08-08-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm glad to see any job growth, but unfortunately it is statistically insignificant. We are adding heads to the potential workforce faster than we are adding jobs.

BTW, so far San Antonio hasn't been hit that hard but IMHO it's coming. I've been doing some unofficial polling of other business owners I know around town and it's looking pretty grim. A friend of mine that owns a big building supply that sells commercial as well as residential says his business is off 50% just in the last year. That ain't good.

maybe your friend has met his match from competition.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 02:27 PM
maybe your friend has met his match from competition.

Nope. They are going out of business.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 02:30 PM
Which heads? The ones who lost government jobs?

The heads that just got out of high school this year. 70,000 jobs a month can't even keep up with population growth and illegal immigration..

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 02:33 PM
The heads that just got out of high school this year. 70,000 jobs a month can't even keep up with population growth and illegal immigration..Is it always going to be 70,000?

Are illegal immigrants counted on the unemployment rolls?

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 02:39 PM
Is it always going to be 70,000?



Probably not. I was listening to the financial news on the radio driving back from the ranch this morning. Growth next year is expected to DROP to around 1%. Fed meets Tuesday and is expected to announce they will start buying debt again. That's an act of total and complete desperation.

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Probably not. I was listening to the financial news on the radio driving back from the ranch this morning. Growth next year is expected to DROP to around 1%.Who made that projection?

Wild Cobra
08-08-2010, 02:55 PM
Probably not. I was listening to the financial news on the radio driving back from the ranch this morning. Growth next year is expected to DROP to around 1%. Fed meets Tuesday and is expected to announce they will start buying debt again. That's an act of total and complete desperation.
I heard growth was expected to drop by as much as 8% because of this congress letting tax cuts expire.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 03:46 PM
Who made that projection?

Goldman Sachs

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 03:48 PM
Goldman SachsGreat.

Do they post these projections?

clambake
08-08-2010, 03:50 PM
Nope. They are going out of business.

your friend owns the last building supply company left in the US?

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 04:13 PM
Great.

Do they post these projections?

Googles your friend shithead.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 04:15 PM
your friend owns the last building supply company left in the US?

Reading is FUNdamental!

The specific post was specific to San Antonio. And yeah my friend has a big chunk of the local business.

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Googles your friend shithead.So you don't know?

Just say so.

It's not a crime.

You're so sensitive.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 04:19 PM
So you don't know?

Just say so.

It's not a crime.

You're so sensitive.

It's the top link on the page. I checked it before I posted.

spursncowboys
08-08-2010, 05:10 PM
So you don't know?

Just say so.

It's not a crime.

You're so sensitive.
:lmao
You're such a effin idiot..............

George Gervin's Afro
08-08-2010, 05:12 PM
:lmao
You're such a effin idiot..............

sincerely,

the guy who doesn't know the difference between coexistence and a coincedence

spursncowboys
08-08-2010, 05:14 PM
I had to pull a dictionary for you. Come on professor. Liberals can't rewrite history all the time.

spursncowboys
08-08-2010, 05:18 PM
Main Entry: coincidence Part of Speech: noun Definition: agreement; coexistence Synonyms: accompaniment, accord (http://thesaurus.com/browse/accord), accordance (http://thesaurus.com/browse/accordance), collaboration (http://thesaurus.com/browse/collaboration), concomitance, concurrence (http://thesaurus.com/browse/concurrence), conformity (http://thesaurus.com/browse/conformity), conjunction (http://thesaurus.com/browse/conjunction), consonance, correlation (http://thesaurus.com/browse/correlation), correspondence (http://thesaurus.com/browse/correspondence), parallelism, synchronism, union (http://thesaurus.com/browse/union) Antonyms: clash (http://thesaurus.com/browse/clash), deviation (http://thesaurus.com/browse/deviation), difference (http://thesaurus.com/browse/difference), disagreement (http://thesaurus.com/browse/disagreement), divergence (http://thesaurus.com/browse/divergence), mismatch


Main Entry: coexistence Part of Speech: noun Definition: happening or being at same time, place Synonyms: accord, coetaneousness, coevality, coincidence , concurrence, conformity, conjunction, contemporaneousness, harmony (http://thesaurus.com/browse/harmony), order (http://thesaurus.com/browse/order), peace (http://thesaurus.com/browse/peace), simultaneousness, synchronicity what do you have against factual definitions? Are you against it like facts and logic? Are they not fair? Is that why?

spursncowboys
08-08-2010, 05:19 PM
sincerely,

the guy who doesn't know the difference between coexistence and a coincedence
anytime you are ready to give me a definition of bigot. Ok Professor, what is the difference between coincedence and coexistence. Enlighten us. Please no devil's advocate like the first time I read a post of yours. :lol
idiot.

clambake
08-08-2010, 06:19 PM
Reading is FUNdamental!

The specific post was specific to San Antonio. And yeah my friend has a big chunk of the local business.

you didn't say he had a big chunk. you said that he has the whole chunk.

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 06:35 PM
you didn't say he had a big chunk. you said that he has the whole chunk.

Oh please...are you in the fucking third grade?

Wild Cobra
08-08-2010, 06:42 PM
Oh please...are you in the fucking third grade?
You give him more credit than I do...

CosmicCowboy
08-08-2010, 07:02 PM
you didn't say he had a big chunk. you said that he has the whole chunk.

Actually I will indulge your stupidity.

My original post was about what is normally called a "leading indicator" of economic activity. Just like building permits, construction supply sales give you an indication of what is ahead in the local economy.

I was pointing out that the local leading economic indicators I am hearing are not good.

I realize this is a complicated economic theory for your pathetic mind to grasp but hold onto your mouse. It gets worse.

When the people you are accustomed to "supersizing" their fries lose their jobs because of the flagging local economy then they will either quit eating there or not supersize their fries. Then the business that gives you your paycheck has to cut back. They will cut the stupid/least productive people first which is you.

That's called a "trailing economic indicator"

Sorry

boutons_deux
08-08-2010, 07:31 PM
August 7, 2010

Jobless and Staying That Way

By NELSON D. SCHWARTZ

Americans have almost always taken growth for granted. Recessions kick in, financial crises erupt, yet these events have generally been thought of as the exception, a temporary departure from an otherwise steady upward progression.

But as expectations for the recovery diminish daily and joblessness shows no sign of easing — as the jobs report on Friday showed — a different view is taking hold. And with it, comes implications for policymaking.

The “new normal,” as it has come to be called on Wall Street, academia and CNBC, envisions an economy in which growth is too slow to bring down the unemployment rate, while the government is forced to intervene ever more forcefully in a struggling private sector. Stocks and bonds yield paltry returns, with better opportunities available for investors overseas.

If that sounds like the last three years, it should. Bill Gross and Mohamed El-Erian, who run the world’s largest bond fund, Pimco, and coined the phrase in this context, think the new normal has already begun and will last at least another three to five years.

The new normal challenges the optimism that’s been at the root of American success for decades, if not centuries. And if it is here, the new normal could force Democrats and Republicans to rethink their traditional approach to unemployment and other social problems.

Some unusual suspects, like Glenn Hubbard, dean of the Columbia Graduate School of Business and an economic adviser to George W. Bush, are talking about a new, expanded role for the government in addressing the problem. In particular, Mr. Hubbard favors investing more in education to retrain workers whose jobs are never coming back. “If there is a new normal, it’s more about the labor market than G.D.P.,” he said. “We have to help people face a new world.”

For his part, Mr. Gross, also a free-market advocate, believes that it’s time for the government to spend tens of billions on new infrastructure projects to put people to work and stimulate demand.

After the recession and the financial crisis, Mr. Gross came around to the view that something structural in the economy had been altered and that the debt-fueled boom led by consumers over the past two decades was over.

Last week only provided more ammunition for his argument. On Tuesday, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner warned that unemployment could go up before it goes down, and on Friday, the jobs report showed that the economy lost 131,000 jobs last month.

Nearly half the 14.6 million unemployed have been out of work for more than six months, a level not seen since the Depression. That’s especially worrisome because the longer unemployment persists, the more skills erode and the harder it becomes to find work.

White House officials, like Christina Romer, a top economic adviser to President Obama, have been busy speaking out against the idea of a new normal. “The fundamental problem we are still facing is the old cyclical, not the new normal,” she said. “What you need to do to get back to normal is to find more ways to get demand up.”

But the new-normal concept is gaining ground. “There is no way to know for sure, but there are broad reasons to think the new normal is possible,” said Greg Mankiw, an economist who advised President George W. Bush and now teaches at Harvard. “We’ve had a deep recession that’s lingering for quite a while, and the question is: Will it leave persistent scars?”

Laura Tyson, chief economic adviser to President Clinton, counts herself firmly in the new-normal camp: “I think we’re going to have slower growth, a higher household savings rate and an elevated unemployment rate for several years.”

Of course, one month’s data is hardly conclusive. And highs and lows in the economy have always been punctuated by the observation that this time is different. But more evidence is emerging that the old normal of unemployment at about 5 percent during buoyant economic growth is over.

Not only are more people out of work longer, but their options are narrowing. Roughly 1.4 million people have been jobless for more than 99 weeks, the point at which unemployment benefits run out. “The situation is devastating,” said Robert Gordon, an economics professor at Northwestern and an expert on the labor market. “We are legitimately beginning to draw analogies to the Great Depression, in the sense that there is a growing hopelessness among job seekers.”

Professor Gordon doesn’t foresee a quick turnaround. But the Obama administration predicts that unemployment will drop to 8.7 percent by the end of next year, and eventually sink to 6.8 percent by the end of 2013.

To reach that level, the economy would have to add nearly 300,000 workers a month over the next three years, according to Peter Morici, a business professor at the University of Maryland. Even in the first half of the year, when the economy grew at a healthy 3 percent, it added fewer than 100,000 jobs a month.

The problem is that the American safety net, which has been looser than those in Europe, was built on the assumption that unemployment would be short term. As a result, a rethinking is in order, said Mr. Hubbard, whose new book, “Seeds of Destruction: Why the Path to Economic Ruin Runs Through Washington, and How to Reclaim American Prosperity,” is coming out this month.

The current approach, with its focus on payments over a relatively short period of time, he said, “came out of the world where unemployment was relatively temporary and then you went back to a similar position.”

“That isn’t what’s happening today.”

While he doesn’t favor extending benefits, Mr. Hubbard supports more government spending on job training as well as help for community colleges to reverse the erosion of jobs skills among the long-term unemployed.

Mr. Gross is more expansive. “We think the coma will last for years unless government policy changes to restimulate the private sector and bring unemployment down,” he said. He wants Washington to invest billions on infrastructure improvements and clean energy, along with the expanded job training favored by Mr. Hubbard.

Despite his long-held belief in free markets, smaller government and lower taxes, Mr. Gross said politicians must recognize that this time, “government is part of the solution.” He added, “In the new-normal world, there are structural problems, which require structural solutions.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/weekinreview/08schwartz.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

=========

Boner's Repugnantly-humanitarian idea: raise retirement level. :lol.

(the Repugs will be aiming to hand SocSec funds to Wall St. I hope they run on that from now to November. Or will they lie about it like they did about hiding Iraq invasion in the 2000 election?)

People 55+ are already unemployed in very high percentage.

Boner wants them to retire from unemployment at 70 instead of 65? :lol

ChumpDumper
08-08-2010, 07:47 PM
:lmao
You're such a effin idiot..............Hey, turns out he did know and answered.

Go figure.

Sorry your butt still hurts.

boutons_deux
08-08-2010, 08:12 PM
Don't forget about the screwed, popped-bubble mortgage market

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/credit/real-estate-underwater-homeowners/19582685/

spursncowboys
08-08-2010, 10:19 PM
Hey, turns out he did know and answered.

Go figure.

Sorry your butt still hurts.It didn't take me long to know you are an idiot.

Wild Cobra
08-08-2010, 10:43 PM
Don't forget about the screwed, popped-bubble mortgage market

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/credit/real-estate-underwater-homeowners/19582685/
Why do so many people feel sorry for those who took credit above and beyond their ability to pay?

Shit, when I make stupid mistakes like that, I don't ask for a bailout.

Anyone with half a brain should have see that the housing market would burst. Now I feel for those who didn't play the game, but legitimately went to buy homes thinking all was fine. Still, if they lost a job and didn't plan for such things, who are we to bail them out?

As for the people flipping houses... They carry much of the blame. I have no sympathy for them.

clambake
08-08-2010, 10:54 PM
Actually I will indulge your stupidity.

My original post was about what is normally called a "leading indicator" of economic activity. Just like building permits, construction supply sales give you an indication of what is ahead in the local economy.

I was pointing out that the local leading economic indicators I am hearing are not good.

I realize this is a complicated economic theory for your pathetic mind to grasp but hold onto your mouse. It gets worse.

When the people you are accustomed to "supersizing" their fries lose their jobs because of the flagging local economy then they will either quit eating there or not supersize their fries. Then the business that gives you your paycheck has to cut back. They will cut the stupid/least productive people first which is you.

That's called a "trailing economic indicator"

Sorry

thats not what you said. you should have someone around to prevent you from lying about conversations that never happen.

these last few days have been your personal abortion.

ChumpDumper
08-09-2010, 12:41 AM
It didn't take me long to know you are an idiot.It didn't take us long to know your butt still hurts.

boutons_deux
08-09-2010, 05:10 AM
"look credit above and beyond their ability to pay"

you ridicule yourself every time you post a message.

google "predatory lending",

and then google how dubya shutdown a group of 19 states who asked the Feds to stop the predatory lending. Spitzer/NY was in that group, and Spitzer kicked Greenberg out of AIG. Spitzer was a marked man on Wall St and got taken down by dubya's politicized DoJ for challenging Wall St.

We didn't hear anything from right-wing/states-rights extremists back then about the overwhelming power of the Feds, did we? Because the capitalists/Wall St finance the tea baggers/Tenthers now were benefiting from their Fed hit men.

people losing their houses now had good credit and payback ability to obtgain prime, Alt-A mortgages, and their mortgages are now beyond their ability to pay because THEY LOST THEIR FUCKING JOBS, or at best, now have jobs at less than half their salary when they bought the house.

"Anyone with half a brain should have see that the housing market would burst."

The Fed "owns" the entire US economist segment, and when Mr Fed said there's no bubble, the entire flock of compromised, compliant economists bleat in unison "there is no bubble". Only a few independent economists and economic observers said their was a bubble, but everybody had the ears stuffed full of innocuous, WRONG "irrational exuberance".

"who are we to bail them out"

They aren't being bailed out, if you kept up with how badly the banks are not re-doing the mortgages. The people are just fucked out of their homes, like farmers were in the 1930s Depression when banks grabbed 10s of 1000s of farms. aka, "disaster capitalism"

boutons_deux
08-09-2010, 08:27 AM
...