Been raped...GOP says too bad...you gotta have the baby...

[fraga]

Read me!!! (http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0806/maddow-gop-abortion-extremism/)

http://www.rawstory.com/images/new/sharronangle.jpg
I know what's best for women!!!

[EmptyMan]

Angle is a gotdamn idiot.


Reid will win. This is why we can't have nice things. :bang

[spursncowboys]

The real question you have to ask is: is abortion murder?

[CosmicCowboy]

Angle is a dream come true for Harry Reid. A blue ass ape could have beat him this fall as long as it stayed at least somewhat center-rational. That bitch is out of her fucking mind.

On the other hand, this bitch in the article is just as fucking stupid on the opposite extreme. Typical of a Rachel Maddow guest.


She then turned to political scientist Melissa Harris-Lacewell, asking, "How did even anti-abortion politics in mainstream electoral politics get so fringe-y?"

"We're in a period of deep economic anxiety," Harris-Lacewell replied, suggesting that people are trying to assert control over their own lives by controlling women's reproduction.

She also pointed to racially-based fear of illegal immigrants, which leads some people to fear that "on one hand ... there's a population that is over-reproducing. ... On the other hand, there's an anxiety about wanting, particularly, middle-class white women to produce more babies ... to counteract all of these bad anchor babies."

[Parker2112]

She also pointed to racially-based fear of illegal immigrants, which leads some people to fear that "on one hand ... there's a population that is over-reproducing. ...

Birth rates among poor, undeducated people with little hope for a bright future will always be higher than for middle class families.

This is a good reason why you can't turn your back on the lower class. If an entire economic class of people goes neglected, the entire country suffers. Is it an expensive process, both in terms of energy and resources? Absolutely. But for the middle and upper class, there really is no choice if they want the nation to remain strong.

Though many would like to think that they dictate their own success, and don't want to be responsible for what happens to their "neighbor," especially one that is deemed morally and intellectually "inferior" in comparison to their own "kind," they have no way of ensuring that eventually the reach of poverty and the crippling hopeless despair that attaches to those in its clutches wont reach out with a clenched fist or a gun and take all that the "superior" holds dear.

Run to riches may well be a race, but there is a penalty for letting too many get left at the starting line. Just as the best defense comes through a strong economy and diplomacy, the best domestic policies draw on a strong economy and a reasonable saftey net for the bottom tier of society, especially for those that would do for themselves and those that cant do for themselves. And for those that wont do at all, let them dictate their own fate.

This is reality, and it is obvious for anyone with half a brain and half a heart.

And before you repugnants chime in, let me tell you I learned this lesson not in a college or university; I learned this working a decade inside a high security penitentiary here in Texas with thieves and murderers, the same types that the average repug would hope to never cross paths with.

Many born into the lower class poverty that this article speaks of.

[panic giraffe]

Angle is a gotdamn idiot.


Reid will win. This is why we can't have nice things. :bang

so true. reid's seat was practically gift wrapped to the GOP, and the tea baggers fucked that one up. way to play to the most vocal part of the base and forgetting you still have to win a general election.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think you missed my point.

Look, I'm a pro-choice Republican. I wish the Republican party would just give it up on abortion. It's a divisive issue socially/politically and abortion is here to stay.

At the same time I respect that people may have religious beliefs and convictions that they simply can't square with abortion. That's fine, they have the choice not to abort.

However, I find that bitch in the article to be totally offensive. Categorically blaming all persons anti-abortion beliefs on "fear of minorities overpopulating" is arrogant and offensive.

[Spurminator]

However, I find that bitch in the article to be totally offensive. Categorically blaming all persons anti-abortion beliefs on "fear of minorities overpopulating" is arrogant and offensive.

True. I think she's confusing anti-abortion sentiment with anti-immigrant.

[balli]

I think it's safe to assume the average tea bagger is anti-everything. Almost everything anyways. Nihilism epitomized.

[Wild Cobra]

I get it.

The Mad Cow said so, so it must be true.

Who has unedited video or transcript evidence that any of these candidates said such a thing?

Do you libtards really believe the Mad Cow?

Besides, the Morning After Pill is available, and Paul brought that up.

[Wild Cobra]

I think it's safe to assume the average tea bagger is anti-everything. Almost everything anyways. Nihilism epitomized.
I think it's safe to assume that you incorrectly assume too much.

[ChumpDumper]

I get it.

The Mad Cow said so, so it must be true.

Who has unedited video or transcript evidence that any of these candidates said such a thing?

Do you libtards really believe the Mad Cow?

Besides, the Morning After Pill is available, and Paul brought that up.I would believe Maddow before Angle. Angle tried to erase her own public campaign website after she won the primary and threatened to sue those who repeated her original platform contained therein.

What does she have to hide?

[boutons_deux]

WC, what's the matter? Tired of Maddow ripping your guys an new asshole? Last night, she absolutely destroyed your hero Billo, using Billo's own tapes to convict him as typical right-wing liar, demagogue, race-baiter.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, what's the matter? Tired of Maddow ripping your guys an new asshole? Last night, she absolutely destroyed your hero Billo, using Billo's own tapes to convict him as typical right-wing liar, demagogue, race-baiter.
How many edits were in that tape?

[EmptyMan]

I've seen numerous videos of Angle herself saying the only reason she does any interviews is to plug her website and get donations. She is a putz. I don't even know what putz means, but she is one.


The GOP man...damn they are stupid. It's like going after the birthright 14th amendment. They had this election and they bring on negative attention to themselves by bringing this up right now when the opposition is fiercely trying to label them extreme? They dun goof'd.

[ChumpDumper]

How many edits were in that tape?I imagine several, since re-airing the entire O'Reilly show wouldn't make any sense.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think you missed my point.

Look, I'm a pro-choice Republican. I wish the Republican party would just give it up on abortion. It's a divisive issue socially/politically and abortion is here to stay.

At the same time I respect that people may have religious beliefs and convictions that they simply can't square with abortion. That's fine, they have the choice not to abort.

However, I find that bitch in the article to be totally offensive. Categorically blaming all persons anti-abortion beliefs on "fear of minorities overpopulating" is arrogant and offensive.

I would have to agree with you on this one. Its a completely idiotic notion that people's stand against abortion has anything to do with immigration.

[Parker2112]

abortion is directed into so many issues for the very reason that it divides the populous...strategy, nothing to do with morals or religous beliefs of those politicians throwing in the monkeywrench

[DMX7]

XEHJSoNEyPw

-TrIKQagJPs

[Wild Cobra]

blah blah blah...
So?

She said "I didn't say that" when words were put in her mouth.

What's wrong with someone having such beliefs to serve in congress? You saying that such people cannot serve would amount to a religious test, because any actual believer has such a viewpoint.

[Wild Cobra]

abortion is directed into so many issues for the very reason that it divides the populous...strategy, nothing to do with morals or religous beliefs of those politicians throwing in the monkeywrench
I wish we could just not worry about these issues in politics.

[CuckingFunt]

However, I find that bitch in the article to be totally offensive. Categorically blaming all persons anti-abortion beliefs on "fear of minorities overpopulating" is arrogant and offensive.

Yet not without basis in historical fact.

Various attempts to control women's reproductive rights have often been used, in this country and elsewhere, in conjunction with efforts to marginalize/demoralize/slow the growth of oppressed groups. Depo Provera, an especially aggressive and dangerous form of birth control, is still heavily promoted within communities of color. It is/was recently fairly standard practice for Native American women on reservations to be sterilized on routine doctor visits without prior/adequate notification. During the early conflicts with the indigenous tribes here, it was actually written and promoted as an effective strategy to first go after the women, leading to not only frequent killings of women and children, but also rape and the practice of using a tribal woman's ovaries/uterus/reproductive organs to decorate one's hat or horse.

Is it accurate to assume that the fear of rising minority populations is the ONLY motivation for anti-abortion sentiment? Probably not. But it's not as if the suggestion comes completely out of left field. It's a common feminist concern for good reason.

[Wild Cobra]

Depo Provera, an especially aggressive and dangerous form of birth control, is still heavily promoted within communities of color.
Is it promoted only in communities of color, or in poor communities?

I know that the Social Services in Oregon promote it to the white women also.

[CuckingFunt]

Is it promoted only in communities of color, or in poor communities?

I know that the Social Services in Oregon promote it to the white women also.

It is much more heavily promoted in communities of color and in lower class communities than in affluent/white communities. Or, at least, it historically has been, even when the dangers and potential complications were known.

[DMX7]

So?

She said "I didn't say that" when words were put in her mouth.

What's wrong with someone having such beliefs to serve in congress? You saying that such people cannot serve would amount to a religious test, because any actual believer has such a viewpoint.


So she believes it, but she just didn't say it? Oh ok, that's much better.

[DMX7]

What's wrong with someone having such beliefs to serve in congress? You saying that such people cannot serve would amount to a religious test, because any actual believer has such a viewpoint.

What's wrong with thinking it's god's plan for a young child to get pregnant because of rape or incest? Are you serious?

This issue really doesn't even have anything to do with religion. She's just an insane extreme right winger using religion to justify her nonsense because it's the most convenient of excuses. And only a dullard wouldn't see through that, which is exactly why you didn't.

[spursncowboys]

Yet not without basis in historical fact.

Various attempts to control women's reproductive rights have often been used, in this country and elsewhere, in conjunction with efforts to marginalize/demoralize/slow the growth of oppressed groups. Depo Provera, an especially aggressive and dangerous form of birth control, is still heavily promoted within communities of color. It is/was recently fairly standard practice for Native American women on reservations to be sterilized on routine doctor visits without prior/adequate notification. During the early conflicts with the indigenous tribes here, it was actually written and promoted as an effective strategy to first go after the women, leading to not only frequent killings of women and children, but also rape and the practice of using a tribal woman's ovaries/uterus/reproductive organs to decorate one's hat or horse.

Is it accurate to assume that the fear of rising minority populations is the ONLY motivation for anti-abortion sentiment? Probably not. But it's not as if the suggestion comes completely out of left field. It's a common feminist concern for good reason.
Birth control and abortion were pushed by Margaret Sanger and other Eugenicists. THese progressives were pure evil. They were the ones trying to get rid of the blacks and yellows.

[spursncowboys]

It is much more heavily promoted in communities of color and in lower class communities than in affluent/white communities. Or, at least, it historically has been, even when the dangers and potential complications were known.
A year or two ago, Planned Parenthood announced that they were going to market towards minorities. Also, if I remember correctly, why they chose their hq's in downtown houston.

[George Gervin's Afro]

A year or two ago, Planned Parenthood announced that they were going to market towards minorities. Also, if I remember correctly, why they chose their hq's in downtown houston.

borth control for the poor..oh the horrah!

[spursncowboys]

No population control targeting certain races isn't racist.

[George Gervin's Afro]

No population control targeting certain races isn't racist.

what are you talking about now? another conspiracy theory from the right wing blogosphere...


I like the fact that PP is trying to limit the number of abortions. You do support limiting abortions don't you?

[spursncowboys]

I support not murdering unborn children. There is no conspiracy theory about eugenics and margaret sanger

[CosmicCowboy]

what are you talking about now? another conspiracy theory from the right wing blogosphere...


I like the fact that PP is trying to limit the number of abortions. You do support limiting abortions don't you?

Are you really THAT stupid?

Planed Parenthood advocating limiting abortions? :lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you really THAT stupid?

Planed Parenthood advocating limiting abortions? :lmao

does birth control limit abortions?

[Spurminator]

No population control targeting certain races isn't racist.

Race card!

[George Gervin's Afro]

does birth control limit abortions?

[CosmicCowboy]

does birth control limit abortions?

Look asshole I'm pro-choice but you are trying to slice blonde cunt hairs here.

Planned Parenthood operates more abortion mills than any other organization in America.

Don't try to twist it that because they also hand out rubbers and birth control pills they are trying to "limit" abortions.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Look asshole I'm pro-choice but you are trying to slice blonde cunt hairs here.

Planned Parenthood operates more abortion mills than any other organization in America.

Don't try to twist it that because they also hand out rubbers and birth control pills they are trying to "limit" abortions.

so they do limit abortions.:lmao

which is what I said from the very beginning. I think we call agree anything to reduce the number of abortions is a good thing. So ,using your language, the abortion mill is trying to limit the number of abortions they will have to provide.

[CuckingFunt]

What much of the right fails to realize is that advocating for reproductive justice isn't motivated by a support of abortion. It's not even entirely about warm and fuzzy hippie sentiment about choice and personal freedoms (though there is merit in that goal). It is, first and foremost, a health and safety issue. Abortions have previously been illegal in this country, but it didn't stop women from seeking dangerous and often fatal procedures to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

And calling Planned Parenthood an abortion mill shows a complete ignorance of their nature as an organization. They have become known for providing affordable abortions, but in truth they provide affordable gynecological services of all kinds to women without access to medical insurance. Education is also a huge part of their organization.

[spursncowboys]

What much of the right fails to realize is that advocating for reproductive justice isn't motivated by a support of abortion. It's not even entirely about warm and fuzzy hippie sentiment about choice and personal freedoms (though there is merit in that goal). It is, first and foremost, a health and safety issue. Abortions have previously been illegal in this country, but it didn't stop women from seeking dangerous and often fatal procedures to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

And calling Planned Parenthood an abortion mill shows a complete ignorance of their nature as an organization. They have become known for providing affordable abortions, but in truth they provide affordable gynecological services of all kinds to women without access to medical insurance. Education is also a huge part of their organization.
You cannot ignore PP's beginning, history, or lobbyist efforts.

[CuckingFunt]

You cannot ignore PP's beginning, history, or lobbyist efforts.

Planned Parenthood is a feminist organization that has always lobbied for reproductive justice and has provided abortion services. I both acknowledge and appreciate those facts.

I'm not the one labeling the organization an "abortion mill" because it's one of several services provided.

[spursncowboys]

Margaret Sanger
on blacks, immigrants and indigents:
"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... Human beings who never should have been born." margaret sanger, pivot of civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people on sterilization & racial purification:
sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. birth control in america, the career of margaret sanger, by david kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 sanger speech.
on the right of married couples to bear children:
couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "plan for peace." birth control review, april 1932
on the purpose of birth control:
the purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the birth control review, nov. 1921 (p. 2)
on the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:
"more children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." birth control review, may 1919, p. 12
on religious convictions regarding sex outside of marriage:
"this book aims to answer the needs expressed in thousands on thousands of letters to me inhttp://www.dianedew.com/images/sanger3.jpg the solution of marriage problems... Knowledge of sex truths frankly and plainly presented cannot possibly injure healthy, normal, young minds. Concealment, suppression, futile attempts to veil the unveilable - these work injury, as they seldom succeed and only render those who indulge in them ridiculous. For myself, i have full confidence in the cleanliness, the open-mindedness, the promise of the younger generation." margaret sanger, happiness in marriage (bretano's, new york, 1927)
on the extermination of blacks:
"we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." woman's body, woman's right: A social history of birth control in america, by linda gordon
on respecting the rights of the mentally ill:
in her "plan for peace," sanger outlined her strategy for eradication of those she deemed "feebleminded." among the steps included in her evil scheme were immigration restrictions; compulsory sterilization; segregation to a lifetime of farm work; etc. birth control review, april 1932, p. 107
on adultery:
a woman's physical satisfaction was more important than any marriage vow, sanger believed. birth control in america, p. 11
on marital sex:
"the marriage bed is the most degenerating influence in the social order," sanger said. (p. 23) [quite the opposite of god's view on the matter: "marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers god will judge." (hebrews 13:4)
on abortion:
"criminal' abortions arise from a perverted sex relationship under the stress of economic necessity, and their greatest frequency is among married women." the woman rebel - no gods, no masters, may 1914, vol. 1, no. 3.
on the ymca and ywca:
"...brothels of the spirit and morgues of freedom!"), the woman rebel - no gods, no masters, may 1914, vol. 1, no. 3.
on the catholic church's view of contraception:
"...enforce subjugation by turning woman into a mere incubator." the woman rebel - no gods, no masters (http://www.dianedew.com/sanger10.htm), may 1914, vol. 1, no. 3.
on motherhood:
"i cannot refrain from saying that women must come to recognize there is some function of womanhood other than being a child-bearing machine." what every girl should know, by margaret sanger (max maisel, publisher, 1915) [jesus said: "daughters of jerusalem, weep... For your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, blessed (happy) are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts which never gave suck." (luke 23:24)]
http://www.dianedew.com/images/sanger-2.jpg
"the most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." margaret sanger, women and the new race (eugenics publ. Co., 1920, 1923)




planned parenthood today

"we are not going to be an organization promoting celibacy or chastity."
faye wattleton, president, planned parenthood federation of america, los angeles times, oct. 17, 1986
_______

"if your parents are stupid enough to deny you access to birth control, and you are under 18, you can get it on your own. Call planned parenthood."
planned parenthood advertisement, dallas observer, jan. 30, 1986
_______

"there are only 2 basic kinds of sex: Sex with victims and sex without. Sex with victims is always wrong. Sex without is always right."
you've changed the combination, rocky mountain planned parenthood, denver, colo.
_______

"the question of whether or not to sell ourselves to men is a false one: The real question is how to sell ourselves in the way that is least destructive to ourselves and our sisters. Prostitutes don't need our condescension. What they need is our alliance. And we need theirs."
the new our bodies, ourselves, boston women's health collective, p 113
_______

"sex is too important to glop up with sentiment. If you feel sexy, for heaven's sake admit it to yourself. If the feeling and the tension bother you, you can masturbate. Masturbation cannot hurt you and it will make you feel more relaxed."
the perils of puberty, rocky mountain planned parenthood, denver, colo.
______

"at planned parenthood you can also get birth control without the consent or knowledge of your parents. So, if you are 14, 15 or 16 and you come to planned parenthood, we won't tell your parents you've been there. We swear we won't tell your parents."
planned parenthood employee lecturing students of ramona high school, riverside, calif., april 21-22, 1986

_________

facts on planned parenthood

planned parenthood on adoption:
of 6,000 clinic visit records examined from a texas pp clinic, only 3 referred for adoption. (aborting planned parenthood, by robert h. Ruff, new vision press, 1988)

planned parenthood's on homosexuality & marital rights:
pp has encouraged homosexuality and advocated compulsory sterilization of all who have two children. (family planning perspectives (a pp publication), june, oct. 1970)
______________

planned parenthood's goal:
dr. Lena levine in 1953, concerning planned parenthood's purpose and planned course of action: "... To be ready as educators and parents to help young people obtain sex satisfaction before marriage. By sanctioning sex before marriage we will prevent fear and guilt. We must also relieve those who have these ... Feelings, and we must be ready to provide young boys and girls with the best contraceptive measures available so they will have the necessary means to achieve sexual satisfaction without having to risk possible pregnancy." (planned parenthood news, summer 1953) ." ("psycho-sexual development," quoted in planned parenthood news, summer 1953, pg. 10)

________

planned parenthood on pregnancy:
pp has an unhealthy concept of pregnancy, as it views the state of gestation as an abnormal condition or disease. Speaking for the organization, dr. Warren hern refers to human pregnancy as "an episodic, moderately extended chronic condition ... May be defined as an illness ... Treated by evacuation of the uterine contents..."("is pregnancy really normal?" family planning perspective, planned parenthood, vol. 3, no. 1, jan. 1971, pg. 9)

[spursncowboys]

Sanger saw birth control as a means to prevent "dysgenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics)" children from being born into a disadvantaged life, and dismissed "positive eugenics" (which promoted greater fertility for the "fitter" upper classes) as impractical. Though many leaders in the negative eugenics movement were calling for active euthanasia of the "unfit," Sanger spoke out against such methods. She believed that women with the power and knowledge of birth control were in the best position to produce "fit" children. She rejected any type of eugenics that would take control out of the hands of those actually giving birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

[fraga]

Jesus was a jew...

[Spurminator]

Based on SnC's post I can come to no other conclusion except that we need to force Margaret Sanger to step down.

[ChumpDumper]

Jesus said barren women should never be happy?

What a dick.

[CuckingFunt]

I'm confused by the frequent attempts to prove that Margaret Sanger supported eugenics when no one has refuted those claims. I don't excuse Sanger's racism/ableism any more than I excuse Dr. King's homophobia. They both agreed with sentiments that were, however unfortunately, quite common within their respective times. But it doesn't mean that either of them weren't able to promote/effect positive change within our society.

[CuckingFunt]

Incidentally, there's absolutely nothing within the information posted about Planned Parenthood that suggests or supports the idea that they are an "abortion mill."

[ChumpDumper]

I'm confused by the frequent attempts to prove that Margaret Sanger supported eugenics when no one has refuted those claims. I don't excuse Sanger's racism/ableism any more than I excuse Dr. King's homophobia. They both agreed with sentiments that were, however unfortunately, quite common within their respective times. But it doesn't mean that either of them weren't able to promote/effect positive change within our society.No, you have to be against birth control because someone who died over 40 years ago was a racist.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm still freaked out about the facts on PP... they are all over 22 years old...:lmao

[CuckingFunt]

I'm still freaked out about the facts on PP... they are all over 22 years old...:lmao

And include the heading "Planned Parenthood Today."

[ChumpDumper]

Following SnC's logic, SnC cannot support the Constitution of the United States because it was written by a slave owner and SnC must think that everything Lincoln did must be condemned because he was, in fact, a racist.

[Parker2112]

Following SnC's logic, SnC cannot support the Constitution of the United States because it was written by a slave owner and SnC must think that everything Lincoln did must be condemned because he was, in fact, a racist.

:lol

[101A]

Some assumptions:

1. If one believes abortion is bad, or is "pro Life" that person believes the fetus to be a child, a human, in full possession of the most basic or rights: The Right to Live.

2. That person (fetus) did not have any control over how he/she was conceived.

3. Anti-abortion EXCEPT is a non-logical position; the only exception LOGICALLY being when the life of the mother is in danger (the child's right to life does not trump the mother's).

Seems to me you either think the fetus has a right to live, or you do not. I am open to listening and discussing why an exception in which one fetus has MORE of a right to live than another is valid; but I can't imagine one being legitimate.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Following SnC's logic, SnC cannot support the Constitution of the United States because it was written by a slave owner and SnC must think that everything Lincoln did must be condemned because he was, in fact, a racist.

is that coexistence or a coincedence?

[fraga]

Masturbation is murder!!!

[spursncowboys]

In 2006 PP aborted 289,750 unborn children and sold 1,436,846 "emergency" birth control kits. Sounds like a mill to me.

[spursncowboys]

Following SnC's logic, SnC cannot support the Constitution of the United States because it was written by a slave owner and SnC must think that everything Lincoln did must be condemned because he was, in fact, a racist.
:lol
idiot. how does that make any sense?

[Spurminator]

3. Anti-abortion EXCEPT is a non-logical position; the only exception LOGICALLY being when the life of the mother is in danger (the child's right to life does not trump the mother's).

Seems to me you either think the fetus has a right to live, or you do not. I am open to listening and discussing why an exception in which one fetus has MORE of a right to live than another is valid; but I can't imagine one being legitimate.

Agreed.

Pro-life in all non-life-threatening circumstances is a much more logical and defensible position than pro-life-except-in-rape-cases, though I disagree with both.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol
idiot. how does that make any sense?I agree; your logic makes no sense.

[Parker2112]

Some assumptions:

1. If one believes abortion is bad, or is "pro Life" that person believes the fetus to be a child, a human, in full possession of the most basic or rights: The Right to Live.

2. That person (fetus) did not have any control over how he/she was conceived.

3. Anti-abortion EXCEPT is a non-logical position; the only exception LOGICALLY being when the life of the mother is in danger (the child's right to life does not trump the mother's).

Seems to me you either think the fetus has a right to live, or you do not. I am open to listening and discussing why an exception in which one fetus has MORE of a right to live than another is valid; but I can't imagine one being legitimate.

Outside of preserving the greater common good in protecting society from certain criminals as a justification to justify the death penalty, The law in this country never supports a relinquishment of one's life to preserve another person's rights. And even the death penalty serves all of society rather thna a single individual.

Long-standing principle of men created equally.

The law recognizes rights up to a point, but at the point where the outcome of legal enforcement becomes too aggregious to enforce, the law refuses a remedy.

Thus the fetus has a right to live beyond the first trimester, but that right does not extend to others having to sacrifice their own lives to preserve that right.

[Parker2112]

I agree; your logic makes no sense.

:rollin

[LnGrrrR]

Some assumptions:

1. If one believes abortion is bad, or is "pro Life" that person believes the fetus to be a child, a human, in full possession of the most basic or rights: The Right to Live.

2. That person (fetus) did not have any control over how he/she was conceived.

3. Anti-abortion EXCEPT is a non-logical position; the only exception LOGICALLY being when the life of the mother is in danger (the child's right to life does not trump the mother's).

Seems to me you either think the fetus has a right to live, or you do not. I am open to listening and discussing why an exception in which one fetus has MORE of a right to live than another is valid; but I can't imagine one being legitimate.

Another option is to recognize the possibility of a fetus being "alive" but recognizing that outlawing abortion might lead to more back-alley abortions, mothers who don't raise their children correctly, etc etc.

Abortion is one of the few issues where I can't come down on either side.

[Parker2112]

Another option is to recognize the possibility of a fetus being "alive" but recognizing that outlawing abortion might lead to more back-alley abortions, mothers who don't raise their children correctly, etc etc.

Abortion is one of the few issues where I can't come down on either side.

its bullshit smokescreen, used to pit the christian populous vs the rest of society.

Im not saying its not worthwhile to defend the rights of the unborn, but I dont think repugs give a fuck...they just use it as a part of a dishonest political strategy to steer sheep

[Parker2112]

:lol
idiot. how does that make any sense?

Its so refreshing to log on midday and see Chump owning your ass all day...I wish I had the time and energy this man does.

:toast CD!

[FromWayDowntown]

Providing a means to prevent pregnancies in the first instance strikes me as a fairly injurious practice for an abortion mill, which (after all) depends upon pregnancies for its existence. Surely, PP, in keeping with its abortion mill mission, is only giving away condoms with holes in them and sugar pills that masquerade as birth control pills.

[spursncowboys]

Its so refreshing to log on midday and see Chump owning your ass all day...I wish I had the time and energy this man does.

:toast CD!
:lmao
YOu saying chump owns anyone on postings. Why don't you explain the similarity of my post and chumps jargon if you find the humor so appealing you post twice with the quote.

[CuckingFunt]

In 2006 PP aborted 289,750 unborn children and sold 1,436,846 "emergency" birth control kits. Sounds like a mill to me.

Of course it does, if that's all you're interested in hearing.

Performing abortions and providing the Plan B pill is, obviously, not all that Planned Parenthood did over the course of 2006, though.

Additionally, selling 1,436,846 emergency birth control kits does not translate to 1,436,846 pregnancies that were terminated as a result.

[CuckingFunt]

Providing a means to prevent pregnancies in the first instance strikes me as a fairly injurious practice for an abortion mill, which (after all) depends upon pregnancies for its existence. Surely, PP, in keeping with its abortion mill mission, is only giving away condoms with holes in them and sugar pills that masquerade as birth control pills.

Bastards.

How dare they have the nerve to be both an abortion mill AND bad capitalists?

[spursncowboys]

great corporatists though.

[Wild Cobra]

It is much more heavily promoted in communities of color and in lower class communities than in affluent/white communities. Or, at least, it historically has been, even when the dangers and potential complications were known.
Is it promoted in affluent black communities?

I think you are seeing things that don't exist, using your own biased perception.

As far as I know, it is promoted to all women of child bearing age who rely on social services.

Are you saying social services discriminate between poor whites and poor blacks? Social services do not supply birth control, aspirin, free medical care, etc. to those who pay for things themselves, or have their own insurance. that's where I see the line.

[Wild Cobra]

So she believes it, but she just didn't say it? Oh ok, that's much better.
My point is that she never said what is implied. Yes, she is a strong pro life, but there is no indication that she would force others to not have an abortion.

[Wild Cobra]

What's wrong with thinking it's god's plan for a young child to get pregnant because of rape or incest? Are you serious?

This issue really doesn't even have anything to do with religion. She's just an insane extreme right winger using religion to justify her nonsense because it's the most convenient of excuses. And only a dullard wouldn't see through that, which is exactly why you didn't.
Your opinion. You are one of many.

Your point?

[Wild Cobra]

No population control targeting certain races isn't racist.
I would say targeting races would be racist. However, again, I have only seen then target the poor, and yes, there are more poor blacks than poor whites. Statistics don't make racism.

[Wild Cobra]

does birth control limit abortions?
I know I'll open a can of worms for saying this again...

I believe Birth control increases births as people get a false sense of security.

[spursncowboys]

http://www.blackgenocide.org/images/graph.gif

[Wild Cobra]

In 2006 PP aborted 289,750 unborn children and sold 1,436,846 "emergency" birth control kits. Sounds like a mill to me.
You won't get any argument from me. Does it do any good to throw facts in peoples faces who wish not to acknowledge them?

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao
YOu saying chump owns anyone on postings. Why don't you explain the similarity of my post and chumps jargon if you find the humor so appealing you post twice with the quote.I intended the humor to be found in the very similarity you described. Some got it; others did not. I didn't think it was quite that subtle, but I don't feel the need to further explain it either.

[spursncowboys]

Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion

On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 16 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated "Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 36 million, the missing 16 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America's Black community would now number 52 million persons. It would be 36 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member."

[Wild Cobra]

Another option is to recognize the possibility of a fetus being "alive" but recognizing that outlawing abortion might lead to more back-alley abortions, mothers who don't raise their children correctly, etc etc.

Abortion is one of the few issues where I can't come down on either side.
You may as well endorse eugenics as well...

[spursncowboys]

I would say targeting races would be racist. However, again, I have only seen then target the poor, and yes, there are more poor blacks than poor whites. Statistics don't make racism.

That is a good point. There are more poor white people in total but not in urban areas that planned parenthood are located and spending their advertisement budget.

[LnGrrrR]

You may as well endorse eugenics as well...

Not quite sure I'm following your logic. Do you mean, aborting babies who have deformities? I'm sure some will argue for that. If I knew my child was going to be severely handicapped, would I think about abortion? Probably. Would I do it? Hard to say unless you're in that situation.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think I agree with spursncowboys on this one. why does plan parenthood want to waste time in poor and predominantly minority neighborhoods. Those areas don't need access to cheap or free birth control...

[Wild Cobra]

Not quite sure I'm following your logic. Do you mean, aborting babies who have deformities? I'm sure some will argue for that. If I knew my child was going to be severely handicapped, would I think about abortion? Probably. Would I do it? Hard to say unless you're in that situation.

mothers who don't raise their children correctly
"Incorrectly" by who's standards? If a child will then be perceived not to be as desired, that's the basis for eugenics now, isn't it?

[ploto]

The morally consistent view would be that it does not matter how the woman conceived, but we all know it is a political issue and not a moral one for most politicians on both sides.

[LnGrrrR]

"Incorrectly" by who's standards? If a child will then be perceived not to be as desired, that's the basis for eugenics now, isn't it?

Incorrectly in the sense that the mother won't view the child as a blessing, but rather as a burden, and therefore not raise the child in a healthy manner. I think we can both agree that there are actions that can definitely affect the upbringing of a child in a negative way. Is it better for a potential mother to abort the child, or to raise the child in a negative light?

I lean against abortion in most cases, but I'm not adamant enough to be a pro-lifer.

[LnGrrrR]

The morally consistent view would be that it does not matter how the woman conceived, but we all know it is a political issue and not a moral one for most politicians on both sides.

Well said. To be morally consistent, if a baby fetus is considered a human being, then whether or not the mother is raped really shouldn't play into the value of the fetus' life.

But it does have real-world implications, which is what I alluded to in my earlier posts.

[fraga]

Fur is murder...

[Wild Cobra]

I lean against abortion in most cases, but I'm not adamant enough to be a pro-lifer.
There are more than enough people who want to adopt babies. There should be no reason for an abortion past the first trimester, unless there is a real health issue to the mother.

I'm Ok with things like the morning after pill. Just not abortion. I am adamant that it is killing innocent life, especially after the first trimester.

[LnGrrrR]

There are more than enough people who want to adopt babies. There should be no reason for an abortion past the first trimester, unless there is a real health issue to the mother.

I'm Ok with things like the morning after pill. Just not abortion. I am adamant that it is killing innocent life, especially after the first trimester.

I would be fine with a ban after first trimester, except when the baby threatened the life of the mother.