Reagan insider: 'GOP destroyed U.S. economy'

[Parker2112]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/reagan-insider-gop-destroyed-us-economy-2010-08-10?pagenumber=1

[coyotes_geek]

Good read.


His bottom line: "The day of national reckoning has arrived. We will not have a conventional business recovery now, but rather a long hangover of debt liquidation and downsizing ... it's a pity that the modern Republican party offers the American people an irrelevant platform of recycled Keynesianism when the old approach -- balanced budgets, sound money and financial discipline -- is needed more than ever."

So true. Especially the last part.

[ducks]

no it is time the president has balls and tells other countries the usa forgave debts
so they need to forgive our debts or else we will drop a nuke on them

[ducks]

then balance the budget

if you and I ran our budget like the gov
we will file for bankrapcy every year!

[balli]

It's pretty telling that the one literal retard on the site is of course a hardcore, tea bagging, republican.

[Drachen]

no it is time the president has balls and tells other countries the usa forgave debts
so they need to forgive our debts or else we will drop a nuke on them

I am pretty sure, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that the by far largest holders of US debt continues to be the American people. Required forgivement essentially becomes a REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY high new tax rate on a portion of the population. Plus, I don't think that America's inhabitants would be very appreciative of America dropping nukes on America.

[ducks]

the usa quits giving money to other nations for national disasters and put that money on the debt would help

[Spurminator]

Or we just quit gathering thousands of people together to cry socialism over the threat of 3% tax increases on the wealthiest Americans.

[DarrinS]

_MGT_cSi7Rs

[DarrinS]

63siCHvuGFg

[Drachen]

Or we just quit gathering thousands of people together to cry socialism over the threat of 3% tax increases on the wealthiest Americans.

At this point, how about both?

[DarkReign]

Seems to me, linking the op-ed piece from Mr. Stockman would have been more productive and concise than having it filtered through the obvious bias of this marketwatch windbag.

How this qualifies as journalism is beyond me. He takes another man's op-ed piece and shoehorns into his intended outcome.

[Marcus Bryant]

Stockman seems downright communist today. Go figure.

[spursncowboys]

Did you mean to put up stockmans article or farrell?

[spursncowboys]

what I got out of farrell's article is that the republicans used to be better than the dem's politicizing and spending.

So Parker, you think we shouldn't have gotten off the gold standard?

[ElNono]

This is the Stockman oped:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html

[Wild Cobra]

Or we just quit gathering thousands of people together to cry socialism over the threat of 3% tax increases on the wealthiest Americans.
I'm not one of the wealthiest, and I expect to see that increase.

Why are you lying?

[ElNono]

I'm not one of the wealthiest, and I expect to see that increase.

Why are you lying?

I think he was quoting the Stockman op-ed:

It is therefore unseemly for the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, to insist that the nation’s wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase.

[Wild Cobra]

I think he was quoting the Stockman op-ed:

It is therefore unseemly for the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, to insist that the nation’s wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase.
Considering the rate for the wealthiest among tax payers will change from 35% to 39.6%, that too, is inaccurate.

[ElNono]

Considering the rate for the wealthiest among tax payers will change from 35% to 39.6%, that too, is inaccurate.

Well, now you're arguing with Stockman. Ultimately, the message he wants to pass has nothing to do with the percentage point figure.

I'm not a big fan of op-eds, but I would recommend reading this one.

[balli]

I'm not one of the wealthiest, and I expect to see that increase.
I'm not either. And I expect an increase too. I welcome it. And refute the notion that it equates to socialism. It equates to patriotism and common sense and taxation's historical standards.

[Parker2112]

what I got out of farrell's article is that the republicans used to be better than the dem's politicizing and spending.

So Parker, you think we shouldn't have gotten off the gold standard?

The gold standard is bullshit. total farce. scam.

Dont you ever watch the videos I post about the Wizard of Oz?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159545&highlight=wizard

[DMX7]

The gold standard is a joke... it's almost prehistoric at this point.

Ron Paul was right about the Iraq War when he stood up against it in 2003, but he's just a one hit wonder. One that even republicans ignore.

[DJ Mbenga]

i still want to see the person convince people cutting taxes for all while still spending will benefit the budget.

[Parker2112]

what I got out of farrell's article is that the republicans sold out, and sold america out.



:toast

[boutons_deux]

Maybe Stockman, like Greenspan, actually sees what a fuckjob his govt service contributed to America's decline, and the deep, long-term pain to Americans.

They are both tools of the disastrous Movement Conservatism class war, where the sacred "free market" solves all problems, always give best possible outcomes, that deregulation is wonderful, that tax cuts pay for themselves, and the lie "government is the problem".

[DarrinS]

No mention of housing bubble in those articles?

Go figure.

[ElNono]

No mention of housing bubble in those articles?

Go figure.

This approach has not simply made a mockery of traditional party ideals. It has also led to the serial financial bubbles and Wall Street depredations that have crippled our economy.

Darrin didn't read the article?

Go figure.

[DarrinS]

This approach has not simply made a mockery of traditional party ideals. It has also led to the serial financial bubbles and Wall Street depredations that have crippled our economy.

Darrin didn't read the article?

Go figure.


My bad, I specifically searched for "housing bubble".

Do you think the GSEs, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac, contributed to the housing bubble?

[ElNono]

My bad, I specifically searched for "housing bubble".

Do you think the GSEs, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac, contributed to the housing bubble?

I think they played a part. How big of a part is debatable.

That said, it's unrelated to what Stockman's main criticism is.

[Sportcamper]

When you really think about it, we need another round of stimulus for American made automobiles & motorcycles purchases….In CA there is a 9.75% sales tax plus DMV fees for new car & motorcycle purchases….What is needed is more taxation from states like Texas & Florida to help off set the cost of new vehicles purchases for states like California…This will get the economy moving…

We also have a serious problem with state workers pensions…Our teachers, fireman, policeman, city counsel workers are entitle to a retirement pension after just 20 years service…Most of them immediately go to work in the same field & collect a second pension…The politicians are able to collect three pensions for lateral moves…Now California is broke…


We need to raise taxes in states like Texas who have been fiscally conservative to bail us Californians out…We are all in this together folks…There is no Democrat or Republican when it comes to financial shortfalls…

[CosmicCowboy]

I tend to agree with Stockman but IMHO Democrats and Republicans share the blame equally and will share the pain equally.

[DarrinS]

When you really think about it, we need another round of stimulus for American made automobiles & motorcycles purchases….In CA there is a 9.75% sales tax plus DMV fees for new car & motorcycle purchases….What is needed is more taxation from states like Texas & Florida to help off set the cost of new vehicles purchases for states like California…This will get the economy moving…

We also have a serious problem with state workers pensions…Our teachers, fireman, policeman, city counsel workers are entitle to a retirement pension after just 20 years service…Most of them immediately go to work in the same field & collect a second pension…The politicians are able to collect three pensions for lateral moves…Now California is broke…


We need to raise taxes in states like Texas who have been fiscally conservative to bail us Californians out…We are all in this together folks…There is no Democrat or Republican when it comes to financial shortfalls…



You can't be serious.

[coyotes_geek]

I tend to agree with Stockman but IMHO Democrats and Republicans share the blame equally and will share the pain equally.

That would be the one criticism of Stockman's piece that is more than fair. It's not all on the republicans. The democrats have been willing accomplices to the whole thing.

[Spurminator]

These days you don't get printed unless you're taking one side or the other. "Our politicians destroyed the economy" doesn't get published... certainly doesn't inspire a lot of talk radio or blog discussion.

[coyotes_geek]

These days you don't get printed unless you're taking one side or the other. "Our politicians destroyed the economy" doesn't get published... certainly doesn't inspire a lot of talk radio or blog discussion.

Also true.

[Sportcamper]

You can't be serious.


I will tell you how serious I am…I was recently in contact with my local Ford dealer regarding a new car purchase…The dealer did their part & offered me a fair trade in on my old car…Ford did their part & offered $3,500 in Ford dollars for taking delivery of a 2010 vehicle on dealer lot…My employer did their part & got me on the Ford x-plan pricing, which gave me an additional discount…Then I ran the numbers by my tax accountant who informed me that I would not be able to write off the $3,500 dollars in sales tax & DMV fees because that program expired in 2009…

This is B.S. & a deal breaker…I am entitled to write off the tax & DMV fees for the purchase of an American car…Until this stimulus program is re activated I will not purchase a new vehicle…States that don’t have these exorbitant fees should be required to subsidize states that do…It is only fair, we are all in this together…

[boutons_deux]

Just like for the lies told and pushed hard for by Repugs/neo-c*nts in the run up to the Iraq war-for-oil, the Dems were at best passive, and finally accomplices in that crime (Magic Negro notably excepted).

If the Repugs hadn't pushed for the Iraq invasion (or if Gore had won), there wouldn't have been $3T and 1000s of lives wasted in Iraq.

Same with tax-cutting for the wealthy and deregulation/non-enforcment of just about everything. VRWC/Movement Conservatives/Repugs have been pushing their "govt-is-the -problem, strangle-it" strategy for 35 years. The Dems bought the Repub bullshit, but the Repugs created the bullshit. No Repugs, then no bullshit to buy.

If banks and non-bank lenders hadn't WILLFULLY (stick that CRA lie up your asses) written bad loans, then F&F/taxpayers wouldn't now be on the hook for having bought that toxic crap.

[TeyshaBlue]

I will tell you how serious I am…I was recently in contact with my local Ford dealer regarding a new car purchase…The dealer did their part & offered me a fair trade in on my old car…Ford did their part & offered $3,500 in Ford dollars for taking delivery of a 2010 vehicle on dealer lot…My employer did their part & got me on the Ford x-plan pricing, which gave me an additional discount…Then I ran the numbers by my tax accountant who informed me that I would not be able to write off the $3,500 dollars in sales tax & DMV fees because that program expired in 2009…

This is B.S. & a deal breaker…I am entitled to write off the tax & DMV fees for the purchase of an American car…Until this stimulus program is re activated I will not purchase a new vehicle…States that don’t have these exorbitant fees should be required to subsidize states that do…It is only fair, we are all in this together…


mmmm...maybe states that have these "exorbitant" fees should drop em?

[CosmicCowboy]

Croutons, It cracks me up how you constantly absolve F&F of any guilt.

THEY are the ones that wrote the lending guidelines. When you tell mortgage brokers you don't require proof of income to make loans then thats's the guidelines they follow.

[CosmicCowboy]

mmmm...maybe states that have these "exorbitant" fees should drop em?

Teysha, he's trolling you.

[ElNono]

I tend to agree with Stockman but IMHO Democrats and Republicans share the blame equally and will share the pain equally.

I don't think he's removing blame from the Democrats. As a Republican who thinks his party is better, he's just calling out the contemporary version of it for being no different than Democrats.

[TeyshaBlue]

Teysha, he's trolling you.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/trek_hmm.gif

[ElNono]

I thought Texas being 'fiscally conservative' was kind of a myth? I mean, I'm sure they do better than Cali (who doesn't?), but they received more federal aid than almost any other state during Bush Jr's presidency and I believe they still have a budget deficit?

[CosmicCowboy]

I thought Texas being 'fiscally conservative' was kind of a myth? I mean, I'm sure they do better than Cali (who doesn't?), but they received more federal aid than almost any other state during Bush Jr's presidency and I believe they still have a budget deficit?

As usual, the fact that you believe it doesn't make it true. Texas was in the bottom half.

[TeyshaBlue]

I thought Texas being 'fiscally conservative' was kind of a myth? I mean, I'm sure they do better than Cali (who doesn't?), but they received more federal aid than almost any other state during Bush Jr's presidency and I believe they still have a budget deficit?

Fiscal conservatism waxes and wanes here in Texas. In the end, we have a largely clueless legislature that often mimics the nonsense in DC.

[Sportcamper]

My Ford story is 100% true...I will not be buyig a new car this year due to the fact that I can't write off sales tax & DMV fees...

[Parker2112]

My Ford story is 100% true...I will not be buyig a new car this year due to the fact that I can't write off sales tax & DMV fees...

Buy in Oregon. 0 sales tax.

[ElNono]

As usual, the fact that you believe it doesn't make it true. Texas was in the bottom half.

If you look at it per capita. Looking at actual amount disbursed by the federal government, Texas ranked consistently 3rd behind California and New York.

Numbers don't lie: http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fas.html

[clambake]

If you look at it per capita. Looking at actual amount disbursed by the federal government, Texas ranked consistently 3rd behind California and New York.

Numbers don't lie: http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fas.html

i just got through looking at the exact same thing.

[Parker2112]

I tend to agree with Stockman but IMHO Democrats and Republicans share the blame equally and will share the pain equally.

Your missing his point entirely. Go figure.

He's not saying Dems are not to blame.

He's saying the Republicans had the right philosophy with fiscal conservatism, and the application of true fiscal restraint...which only they would have done...was the prescription for our economy. And Repubs instead decided to join in the free for all with everyone else.

They sold out thier constituents and the country by reducing their principles to lip service and turning their backs on party principles.

His main point is: Repubs alone carried the antidote, and they refused to use it. And now its too late.

[Parker2112]

i just got through looking at the exact same thing.

CC lies when he can't win an argument with the truth.

[ElNono]

CC lies when he can't win an argument with the truth.

Well, he's not lying. He's just using a different metric.

[TeyshaBlue]

If you look at it per capita. Looking at actual amount disbursed by the federal government, Texas ranked consistently 3rd behind California and New York.

Numbers don't lie: http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fas.html

Ummm...take a look at figure 5of 2008. Doesn't look like Texas even sniffs the top half.??

[TeyshaBlue]

What am I missing here?

[ElNono]

Ummm...take a look at figure 5of 2008. Doesn't look like Texas even sniffs the top half.??

Again, that's per-capita. Amount / population.

If you look at Table 1 (actual amounts):

California: $53,818,106
New York: $44,453,782
Texas: $30,579,994

[CosmicCowboy]

If you look at it per capita. Looking at actual amount disbursed by the federal government, Texas ranked consistently 3rd behind California and New York.

Numbers don't lie: http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fas.html

You are such a knee jerk fool. How is comparing California to Rhode Island even remotely relevant if you don't use PER CAPITA numbers?

Here are the RELEVANT rankings.

http://www.nemw.org/images/fedspend2rank.pdf

Just admit your claim that Bush favored Texas was a MASSIVE fail and move on.

[TeyshaBlue]

Again, that's per-capita. Amount / population.

If you look at Table 1 (actual amounts):

California: $53,818,106
New York: $44,453,782
Texas: $30,579,994

I think if you're going to measure something that is awarded to individual citizens, then the number of citizens becomes very germane to the total. Per Capita is the fairest way to measure this.
Texas does rank #2 in population, after all.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/ranks/rank01.html

[CosmicCowboy]

CC lies when he can't win an argument with the truth.

And again, Parker proves he is an absolute fucking idiot.

[ElNono]

I think if you're going to measure something that is awarded to individual citizens, then the number of citizens becomes very germane to the total. Per Capita is the fairest way to measure this.
Texas does rank #2 in population, after all.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/ranks/rank01.html

But it isn't awarded to individual citizens. It's awarded to the state in order to distribute to citizens.

[CosmicCowboy]

But it isn't awarded to individual citizens. It's awarded to the state in order to distribute to citizens.

Wrong again. Federal dollars are distributed in a multitude of ways.

[Parker2112]

And again, Parker proves he is an absolute fucking idiot.

I stand by the statement. I was speaking in general terms. :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

But it isn't awarded to individual citizens. It's awarded to the state in order to distribute to citizens.

Exactly. If a state has 21 million citizens, it's likely to get more aid than a state with 2 million.
If you are going to compare amounts of aid to states, you have to take into account the population of those states since they are, ultimately, the recipient of that aid in one form or another.

[CosmicCowboy]

Bottom line, There was no favoritism to Texas by Bush as was falsely claimed.

On the other hand, Obama shutting down NASA in Houston was clearly to spite Texas.

[ElNono]

Wrong again. Federal dollars are distributed in a multitude of ways.

But we're not talking about Federal dollars in general, are we? We're talking about State aid specifically.

[clambake]

lol

[coyotes_geek]

But it isn't awarded to individual citizens. It's awarded to the state in order to distribute to citizens.

Do you think there might be some correlation to the number of citizens a state has and the amount awarded to the state?

[ElNono]

Exactly. If a state has 21 million citizens, it's likely to get more aid than a state with 2 million.
If you are going to compare amounts of aid to states, you have to take into account the population of those states since they are, ultimately, the recipient of that aid in one form or another.

I understand how aid is calculated. It doesn't take away that Texas is the 3rd most money getter from federal aid in the country.

[ElNono]

Do you think there might be some correlation to the number of citizens a state has and the amount awarded to the state?

Of course there is. Did I claim otherwise?

[TeyshaBlue]

But we're not talking about Federal dollars in general, are we? We're talking about State aid specifically.

Uh, yes we are talking about Federal dollars. The census data you are using specifically states that.

[ElNono]

Bottom line, There was no favoritism to Texas by Bush as was falsely claimed.

I didn't claim favoritism. Quote please.

I merely said that Texas was among the states that received the most aid during the Bush Jr presidency. That's factually correct.

[boutons_deux]

I'm not absolving F&F.

I'm pointing out that the Repugs, inveterate liars and obfuscators, are shifting ALL the blame to F&F and the Dems, pushing F&F out front as the primary force behind the housing bubble.

"wrote the lending guidelines"

guidelines aren't laws and regulations.

As we are finding now, the govt can't force the banks to do anything, like write shitty mortgages to poor blacks in red-line areas, or re-write mortgages to save homes, or do whatever the fuck CRA wants them to do.

all the lenders were in a lending frenzy, with regulated banks even creating non-regulated subsidiaries to get their own sharks into the bloodied water.

F&F certainly tried to compete in that frenzy, and also bought a lot of toxic shit from lenders that criminally wrote the shitty, predatory, exploding mortgages and then dumped the mortgages on F&F. No shitty mortgages, then no shit for F&F to buy.

[ElNono]

Uh, yes we are talking about Federal dollars. The census data you are using specifically states that.

Sure we're talking about Federal dollars, but circumscribed to State aid.

Do you see the stimulus checks individuals received in that census data?

[Parker2112]

Bottom line, There was no favoritism to Texas by Bush as was falsely claimed.

On the other hand, Obama shutting down NASA in Houston was clearly to spite Texas.

The money that came into Texas was never so easily tracked... the money that came into Texas during the Bush admin came through contracts with the govt.

http://www.governmentcontractswon.com/department/defense/texas_counties.asp

[TeyshaBlue]

I understand how aid is calculated. It doesn't take away that Texas is the 3rd most money getter from federal aid in the country.

Because it's the 2nd most populous state in the country!

BTW, you've got to look at those table headings closely. Those rankings are for classes of programs such as Defense, Agriculture, HUD...etc. There isn't a composite table of all aid with totals.

[CosmicCowboy]

I understand how aid is calculated. It doesn't take away that Texas is the 3rd most money getter from federal aid in the country.

They are also the second largest in population. And this is relevant why?




I thought Texas being 'fiscally conservative' was kind of a myth? I mean, I'm sure they do better than Cali (who doesn't?), but they received more federal aid than almost any other state during Bush Jr's presidency and I believe they still have a budget deficit?

Just admit you got caught using flaky logic/data trying to prove a point that clearly wasn't true and move on.

[ElNono]

Because it's the 2nd most populous state in the country!

BTW, you've got to look at those table headings closely. Those rankings are for classes of programs such as Defense, Agriculture, HUD...etc. There isn't a composite table of all aid with totals.

You need to look at those tables closer if you don't see the total. I do.

[Parker2112]

The money that came into Texas was never so easily tracked... the money that came into Texas during the Bush admin came through contracts with the govt.

http://www.governmentcontractswon.com/department/defense/texas_counties.asp

After running through that list of states I dont see anyone else touching Texas' earnings. Correct me if Im wrong

[TeyshaBlue]

Sure we're talking about Federal dollars, but circumscribed to State aid.

Do you see the stimulus checks individuals received in that census data?

No, the data is not that granular. But it doesn't matter in the end analysis. Every taxpayer was eligible for a stimulus check. Wouldn't the state with one of the largest populations recieve the most stimulus checks?

Don't you see that the correlation between population and aid is incredibly strong...hell it almost approaches unity.

[CosmicCowboy]

The money that came into Texas was never so easily tracked... the money that came into Texas during the Bush admin came through contracts with the govt.

http://www.governmentcontractswon.com/department/defense/texas_counties.asp

I already posted the categorical breakdown asswipe.

http://www.nemw.org/images/fedspend2rank.pdf

[coyotes_geek]

I didn't claim favoritism. Quote please.

I merely said that Texas was among the states that received the most aid during the Bush Jr presidency. That's factually correct.

Yes it is. It's also factually correct that Texas is among the states receiving the most money during the Obama presidency. So now what?

[TeyshaBlue]

You need to look at those tables closer if you don't see the total. I do.

Cite a table with the composite totals then. I don't see one.

[ElNono]

They are also the second largest in population. And this is relevant why?

It is relevant because the money goes to the state treasury, not individual citizen's pockets.


Just admit you got caught using flaky logic/data trying to prove a point that clearly wasn't true and move on.

Just admit that Texas was a top 3 federal money getter during the Bush Jr years and move on.

[ElNono]

Yes it is. It's also factually correct that Texas is among the states receiving the most money during the Obama presidency. So now what?

Now we can say that your claim that Texas was in the bottom-half was actually inaccurate.

[TeyshaBlue]

It is relevant because the money goes to the state treasury, not individual citizen's pockets.



Just admit that Texas was a top 3 federal money getter during the Bush Jr years and move on.

Just admit that the reason Texas was a top 3 federal money getter was directly relative to it's ranking as the #2 pop. state in the nation.

[CosmicCowboy]

It is relevant because the money goes to the state treasury, not individual citizen's pockets.



Just admit that Texas was a top 3 federal money getter during the Bush Jr years and move on.

:lmao

You are just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

EPIC FAIL

[TeyshaBlue]

Now we can say that your claim that Texas was in the bottom-half was actually inaccurate.

No, it was just as "Factually" correct as your statement. Texas was in the bottom-half, per capita, of received funding.

[Parker2112]

I already posted the categorical breakdown asswipe.

http://www.nemw.org/images/fedspend2rank.pdf

The link I posted was specific to defense indutry. Texas sits atop tha list in earnings, even though it didnt have as many contractors as some other states.

[ElNono]

No, it was just as "Factually" correct as your statement. Texas was in the bottom-half, per capita, of received funding.

He didn't say per-capita.

[doobs]

He didn't say per-capita.

Isn't that what matters?

Christ, Texas is the second most populous state!

[MannyIsGod]

I don't thin one party ruined the economy. Any argument with that premise is almost certainly wrong.

I will say this, the GOP needs to acknowledge tax increases are necessary to get us out from underneath the debt we have. If they will not acknowledge that then they obviously are not serious about solving it as a problem.

[TeyshaBlue]

He didn't say per-capita.

You didn't say composite totals either. Both are implied. That's why you have to agree on a metric before you get into a pissing match.

[Parker2112]

Just admit that the reason Texas was a top 3 federal money getter was directly relative to it's ranking as the #2 pop. state in the nation.

You guys are almost admitting that every state is on the take nearly equally.

That makes this measurement all but useless.

[ElNono]

Cite a table with the composite totals then. I don't see one.

Page 1 for 2008. Very first column.

[TeyshaBlue]

I don't thin one party ruined the economy. Any argument with that premise is almost certainly wrong.

I will say this, the GOP needs to acknowledge tax increases are necessary to get us out from underneath the debt we have. If they will not acknowledge that then they obviously are not serious about solving it as a problem.

Agreed. If there was a single fiscal conservative among them, it would go much easier.

[doobs]

I don't thin one party ruined the economy. Any argument with that premise is almost certainly wrong.

I will say this, the GOP needs to acknowledge tax increases are necessary to get us out from underneath the debt we have. If they will not acknowledge that then they obviously are not serious about solving it as a problem.

You could say the same about Democrats and spending.

[CosmicCowboy]

The link I posted was specific to defense indutry. Texas sits atop tha list in earnings, even though it didnt have as many contractors as some other states.

The list I posted was ALL Federal procurement contracts which is the relevant number to use.

Texas is 2nd in size, 2nd in population and 6th in Federal Procurement.

Why is this an issue with you?

[ElNono]

No, the data is not that granular. But it doesn't matter in the end analysis. Every taxpayer was eligible for a stimulus check. Wouldn't the state with one of the largest populations recieve the most stimulus checks?

Sure. But those checks didn't go to the state. They were issued by the IRS directly to individuals.


Don't you see that the correlation between population and aid is incredibly strong...hell it almost approaches unity.

Did I ever say that there was no correlation?

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't thin one party ruined the economy. Any argument with that premise is almost certainly wrong.

I will say this, the GOP needs to acknowledge tax increases are necessary to get us out from underneath the debt we have. If they will not acknowledge that then they obviously are not serious about solving it as a problem.

I agree with Manny on this.

[MannyIsGod]

You could say the same about Democrats and spending.

I think there are Democrats who are willing to cut spending and raise tax rates but I'm not so sure any member of the GOP is willing to raise taxes at this time.

Now, that being said, I completely agree that Democrats will need to find ways to cut spending.

[TeyshaBlue]

Page 1 for 2008. Very first column.

I'm assuming you mean table #1. Page one doesn't have anything.

Ahhh..I got it. My bad. The first column is the aggregate of all of the tables. Doh! Man, that should be titled.

[Parker2112]

The list I posted was ALL Federal procurement contracts which is the relevant number to use.

Texas is 2nd in size, 2nd in population and 6th in Federal Procurement.

Why is this an issue with you?

Bush and his cronies had ties to the defense and oil. It wasnt simply texas he was favoring.

Your defense of bush admin is misleading. You were the one that brought that shit out of nowhere.

[ElNono]

You didn't say composite totals either. Both are implied. That's why you have to agree on a metric before you get into a pissing match.

I disagree that they're implied. Ultimately, all he had to ask is what metric I was using before pulling the favoritism flag.

My original post had to do with Texas being regarded as a fiscal conservative state, when the state actually receives a shit load of federal money and still run a budget with deficits on it.

That's all.

[TeyshaBlue]

Sure. But those checks didn't go to the state. They were issued by the IRS directly to individuals.



Did I ever say that there was no correlation?

Ok, so the fact that Texas received more aid during the Bush Presidency is a Non Sequitur. It's a meaningless stat.

Hey, Texas produced more mosquitoes in June than Colorado. Just as meaningful.

[doobs]

I think there are Democrats who are willing to cut spending and raise tax rates but I'm not so sure any member of the GOP is willing to raise taxes at this time.

Now, that being said, I completely agree that Democrats will need to find ways to cut spending.

One thing, though: if you cut spending by $1 billion, you've improved the budget by $1 billion. It's fairly straightforward. But if you raise taxes by a certain amount, there's a great deal of uncertainty about what that will do to revenues.

[TeyshaBlue]

I disagree that they're implied. Ultimately, all he had to ask is what metric I was using before pulling the favoritism flag.

My original post had to do with Texas being regarded as a fiscal conservative state, when the state actually receives a shit load of federal money and still run a budget with deficits on it.

That's all.

I still disagree with what I percieve as the logic behind your premise. Whether Texas is or is not fiscally conservative, is irrlevant to the shit load of federal money. States with the largest pops get the most money. States with the largest pops have the largest budgets. That Texas has withstood what the other 2 largest states have endured for much longer, should imply something.

[ElNono]

I'm assuming you mean table #1. Page one doesn't have anything.

Ahhh..I got it. My bad. The first column is the aggregate of all of the tables. Doh! Man, that should be titled.

Right. It's kind of confusing, but it's there.

It's the Page 1 as marked on the document. Page 15 of the PDF.

[TeyshaBlue]

Right. It's kind of confusing, but it's there.

It's the Page 1 as marked on the document. Page 15 of the PDF.

:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

Splitting hairs with El Nono makes me hungry. I gotta go eat.:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Bush and his cronies had ties to the defense and oil. It wasnt simply texas he was favoring.

Your defense of bush admin is misleading. You were the one that brought that shit out of nowhere.

Your reading comprehension CONTINUES to fail you.

ElNono brought up the Bush Favoritism. I simply proved he was a liar.

Since you clearly can't read charts I'll spell it out for you.

2008 breakdown of ALL federal spending per capita by state.

Retirement and disability payments: Texas ranks 47th

Direct Federal Grants: Texas ranks 36th

Federal Procurement: Texas ranks 6th

Federal Salaries and Wages: Texas ranks 25th

Overall ranking on spending per capita per state: 28th

[ElNono]

Ok, so the fact that Texas received more aid during the Bush Presidency is a Non Sequitur. It's a meaningless stat.

Hey, Texas produced more mosquitoes in June than Colorado. Just as meaningful.

Well, if somebody is going to wave the flag that Texas is the prime example of a 'fiscally conservative' state, then you would think they wouldn't need/want the percentage of federal aid they get. IE: They would rank lower even though their population is among the biggest.

Basically, a reverse-New York, who doesn't have as much population as Texas, but actually receives more money.

[ElNono]

Splitting hairs with El Nono makes me hungry. I gotta go eat.:lol

I'm eating as we speak.. :wakeup

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

One thing, though: if you cut spending by $1 billion, you've improved the budget by $1 billion. It's fairly straightforward. But if you raise taxes by a certain amount, there's a great deal of uncertainty about what that will do to revenues.

Thats not true. Lets say we cut our military budget by 1 billion. Now, that is going to mean some people lose their jobs and certain contracts don't get filled which has a chain reaction as well. So yes, you have 1 billion less in expenditures on your budget but then you will also recover less tax revenue due to a reduction in spending.

Money put into the economy by the government does not simply disappear.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, if somebody is going to wave the flag that Texas is the prime example of a 'fiscally conservative' state, then you would think they wouldn't need/want the percentage of federal aid they get. IE: They would rank lower even though their population is among the biggest.

Basically, a reverse-New York, who doesn't have as much population as Texas, but actually receives more money.

Well, there is the little matter of Texas being #2 in population but receiving the 3rd largest portion. But, in the end, that's meaningless too as funding is often subject to the whims of elements outside of both the state and federal govt control. We've gotten a boat load of disaster funds in the last few years, which is part of that total. Disasters don't really figure into fiscal conservation.:lol

[Parker2112]

Your reading comprehension CONTINUES to fail you.

ElNono brought up the Bush Favoritism. I simply proved he was a liar.

Since you clearly can't read charts I'll spell it out for you.

2008 breakdown of ALL federal spending per capita by state.

Retirement and disability payments: Texas ranks 47th

Direct Federal Grants: Texas ranks 36th

Federal Procurement: Texas ranks 6th

Federal Salaries and Wages: Texas ranks 25th

Overall ranking on spending per capita per state: 28th

I missed ElNono's arg, but if thats the case...he missed the point too. You both do. Bush relationship with Texas dont go to all contractors state wide, just the industries that he and many of his admin had ties to, and who reaped benefits from his policies while in office.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm eating as we speak.. :wakeup

:lol

Damnit! I wanted you to buy!:rollin

[Parker2112]

you continuing to hammer on that bullshit data is comical as well...

[ElNono]

I wrongly inferred ElNono brought up the Bush Favoritism. He simply proved I was wrong.

fify

[Parker2112]

fify

gotta watch CC...he gets a little shifty sometimes...

[ElNono]

Well, there is the little matter of Texas being #2 in population but receiving the 3rd largest portion. But, in the end, that's meaningless too as funding is often subject to the whims of elements outside of both the state and federal govt control. We've gotten a boat load of disaster funds in the last few years, which is part of that total. Disasters don't really figure into fiscal conservation.:lol

True. And I have no problems with the fine folks in Texas. I actually have family there and I'm going to visit next month.

But the state suffers from the same problems other states suffer as far as bloated budgets and deficits. Obviously Perry renting that residence he lives in doesn't help either. And it's a state that it's in a great condition to actually show other states how to do things right. They get plenty of federal funding, and it's chock full of conservatives (unlike Cali or NY).

[TeyshaBlue]

True. And I have no problems with the fine folks in Texas. I actually have family there and I'm going to visit next month.

But the state suffers from the same problems other states suffer as far as bloated budgets and deficits. Obviously Perry renting that residence he lives in doesn't help either. And it's a state that it's in a great condition to actually show other states how to do things right. They get plenty of federal funding, and it's chock full of conservatives (unlike Cali or NY).

Yeah, which was why I was saying it really waxes and wanes. Perry hasn't been much of a leader in that respect..and we certainly apportion our money poorly. To receive what we recieve and have one of the worst mental health programs in the nation is simply unforgiveable and is a good example of our legislatures' poor stewardship.
But goddamn, Perry sure has a nice pad.:bang

[CosmicCowboy]

you continuing to hammer on that bullshit data is comical as well...

So when you are confronted with data that clearly refutes the claims pulled straight from your hemorrhoid infested ass it becomes "bullshit" data?

[Parker2112]

So when you are confronted with data that clearly refutes the claims pulled straight from your hemorrhoid infested ass it becomes "bullshit" data?

I am telling you you are missing the point entirely, and the data you are hammering doesnt address the point at all

bush didnt favor texas he favored his business partners and his cronies business partners.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am telling you you are missing the point entirely, and the data you are hammering doesnt address the point at all

bush didnt favor texas he favored his business partners and his cronies business partners.

So your point is that politicians favor their cronies.

*gasp*

I am SO shocked and outraged!

How fucking old are you?

[Parker2112]

So your point is that politicians favor their cronies.

*gasp*

I am SO shocked and outraged!

How fucking old are you?

It just sucks when "favoring the cronies" BANKRUPTS THE FUCKING COUNTRY AT THE HAND OF UNNECESSARY WAR.

[Winehole23]

War/defense/security is an element of the fiasco, but it is just an element. It doesn't carry all the freight you want it to, still less does it carry your argument over the finish line.

ALL CAPS don't lend any credence to your exaggeration either. Sorry.

[Parker2112]

War/defense/security is an element of the fiasco, but it is just an element. It doesn't carry all the freight you want it to, still less does it carry your argument over the finish line.

ALL CAPS don't lend any credence to your exaggeration either. Sorry.

that argument/all caps is aimed at the last bastion of big spending...the conservative right.


I dont address the far left or those who believe that we can still afford big spending on social programs. THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL FOR THAT PURPOSE. The grim outlook and shaky consumer confidence will take care of that.

I address those that still think the disasterous spending is necessary to protect our shores. If thats not you then dont concern yourself with my choice of case.

[ducks]

the countries debt problems were already in place before the irag war
to say irag war caused the debt problem sorely is stupid and retarted

[Parker2112]

the countries debt problems were already in place before the irag war
to say irag war caused the debt problem sorely is stupid and retarted

this is the longest war in US history. its cost will stretch lpong after our boys come home. but that is never going to happen...occupation will follow.

you dont fully understand the costs and causes of our imperialistic policies ducks, nor the implications.

[Winehole23]

that argument/all caps is aimed at the last bastion of big spending...the conservative right. Uh, bullshit.


I dont address the far left or those who believe that we can still afford big spending on social programs. THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL FOR THAT PURPOSE. The grim outlook and shaky consumer confidence will take care of that.Naive. The public won't sit still for cuts in services, and politicians don't have the guts to make them. The social pain will be enormous, as will be the political backlash. Nothing about it will be easy, much less occur automatically, as you seem to suggest.

[Parker2112]

Uh, bullshit.

Naive. The public won't sit still for cuts in services, and politicians don't have the guts to make them. The social pain will be enormous, as will be the political backlash. Nothing about it will be easy, much less occur automatically, as you seem to suggest.

on the re-read, bullshit is correct...I would like to add "last bastion that I want to take digs at..." :wakeup

regardless, as you can see, I play fair, and I like those that play fair. and I hate bigots and neocons. everyone else is cool by me.

I call strikes and balls winehole. if you dont know anything else about me, know that.