U.S. Is Bankrupt and We Don't Even Know

[Marcus Bryant]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-11/u-s-is-bankrupt-and-we-don-t-even-know-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html

[Marcus Bryant]

Seems a bit more important than gay anchor babies or whatever everyone's masturbating about.

[boutons_deux]

America is bankrupt.

America is a fraud.

All the TBTF banks are bankrupt, except that the Feds allowed them to dump their debts on taxpayers, and escape. But the Repugs and banks conspired to make it much more difficult for individuals with, eg medical, catastrophes to file for bankruptcy.

America is fucked, America is unfuckable.

I can't wait for the Repugs to get back into power and save our asses, bomb Iran, and other fun. :lol

[CavsSuperFan]

I object and take exception to people who say that Obama & Congress are spending money like a drunken sailor…As a former drunken sailor, I quit when I ran out of money…

[Parker2112]

I object and take exception to people who say that Obama & Congress are spending money like a drunken sailor…As a former drunken sailor, I quit when I ran out of money…

good call.

[Winehole23]

It adds that “closing the fiscal gap requires a permanent annual fiscal adjustment equal to about 14 percent of U.S. GDP.”

The fiscal gap is the value today (the present value) of the difference between projected spending (including servicing official debt) and projected revenue in all future years.

[boutons_deux]

The Repug lie is that the deficit is due Magic Negro's spending.

The truth is that the deficit is almost completely on the Repugs, conservative/free market bullshit, neo-c*nt botched wars.


http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036


.

[ElNono]

I think a good amount of people know.

The question is what can you do about it? (I mean in the general sense)

[CosmicCowboy]

The Repug lie is that the deficit is due Magic Negro's spending.

The truth is that the deficit is almost completely on the Repugs, conservative/free market bullshit, neo-c*nt botched wars.


http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036


.


The TRUTH is that Republicans and Democrats share the blame equally.

[in2deep]

I blame Mrs. Obama

[in2deep]

The TRUTH is that Republicans and Democrats share the blame equally.

not if you go by that graph

[Winehole23]

Apportionment of blame is so beside the point. If we can't get past that we're fucked.

[Winehole23]

Raise taxes, cut services. Who's in?

[coyotes_geek]

Apportionment of blame is so beside the point. If we can't get past that we're fucked.

True. But nevertheless the debate about who's 50.1% responsible rages on...........

[ElNono]

Raise taxes, cut services. Who's in?

Not the current crop of politicians...

[coyotes_geek]

Raise taxes, cut services. Who's in?

There's a few of us.

Unfortunately none of us are in office..............

[Winehole23]

Not the current crop of politicians...We can't put it off forever. If we wait too long the market (and the miracle of compounded interest) will enforce austerity on us and it won't be pretty.

[CosmicCowboy]

Raise taxes, cut services. Who's in?

I'm in.

As long as it's your services..:lol

[Spurminator]

Raise taxes, cut services. Who's in?

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm in.

As long as it's your services..:lol


BTW, that was a joke.

As I have said previously, I'm in.

[Parker2112]

this is a horseshit discussion.

govt needs to undergo a sea change.

wtf does it help if taxpayers do some belt tightening?

gov is going to find some way to funnel money to the war and to wall st...to line their own pockets

[Drachen]

apportionment of blame is so beside the point. If we can't get past that we're fucked.

thank you!

[boutons_deux]

"TRUTH is that Republicans and Democrats share the blame equally."

the TRUTH is you're a liar.

Rampant deregulation,

rampant non-enforcement of regulations (esp financial regulations),

repealing Glass-Steagall,

unfunded Medicare Part D

forbidding govt to negotiate as single-buyer with BigMedical

tax cuts for wealthy while raising taxes on the non-wealthy,

"government is the problem"

"tax cuts pay for themselves"

fomenting hate for all govt-too-big-to-drown-in-a-bathtub,

bogusly invading Iraq-for-oil

... are all Repug/Movement Conservative/neo-c*nt aggressive iniatives, where the chickenshit Dems went along.

Now GFY.

The Repugs ain't done anything positive for the USA since Eisenhower.

[CosmicCowboy]

"TRUTH is that Republicans and Democrats share the blame equally."

the TRUTH is you're a liar.

Rampant deregulation,

rampant non-enforcement of regulations (esp financial regulations),

repealing Glass-Steagall,

unfunded Medicare Part D

forbidding govt to negotiate as single-buyer with BigMedical

tax cuts for wealthy while raising taxes on the non-wealthy,

"government is the problem"

"tax cuts pay for themselves"

fomenting hate for all govt-too-big-to-drown-in-a-bathtub,

bogusly invading Iraq-for-oil

... are all Repug/Movement Conservative/neo-c*nt aggressive iniatives, where the chickenshit Dems went along.

Now GFY.

The Repugs ain't done anything positive for the USA since Eisenhower.

Jeez dude, just kill yourself and get it over with.

[Winehole23]

govt needs to undergo a sea change.

wtf does it help if taxpayers do some belt tightening?Both need to happen. Both admittedly are very unlikely.

Recalcitrance to the necessary changes doesn't change the reality of the situation: the longer we put off getting down to brass tacks the more painful it will be whenever we get wise, or it is no longer avoidable.

[ElNono]

We can't put it off forever. If we wait too long the market (and the miracle of compounded interest) will enforce austerity on us and it won't be pretty.

So, you're running for public office?

It's not that I don't understand that we need to do it. It's that nobody that has a chance to actually get to DC gives a shit about it.

[Winehole23]

So, you're running for public office?No.


It's not that I don't understand that we need to do it. It's that nobody that has a chance to actually get to DC gives a shit about it.Yeah, that's a really tough nut to crack.

[Parker2112]

No.

Yeah, that's a really tough nut to crack.

we have a winner.

:flag:

[boutons_deux]

"nobody that has a chance to actually get to DC gives a shit about it."

Even if some gives-a-shit faux-poplulist tea bagger get elected, he will be corrupted and compromised by corps in his first term. He will anyway vote straight Repug party, so tea bagger Congresspeople will change nothing.

you dreamers need to wake up and smell the shit of govt being irretrievably controlled and corrupted by corps, capitalists, and Wall St.

[Winehole23]

I doubt it.

[Parker2112]

"nobody that has a chance to actually get to DC gives a shit about it."

Even if some gives-a-shit faux-poplulist tea bagger get elected, he will be corrupted and compromised by corps in their first term. He will anyway vote straight Repug party, so tea bagger Congresspeople will change nothing.

you dreamers need to wake up and smell the shit of govt being irretrievably controlled and corrupted by corps, capitalists, and Wall St.

THIS POST IS WIN.

:lobt:

[boutons_deux]

"I doubt it."

What's your plan, Stan?

[Winehole23]

@Parker2112:

Like boutons, you seem to prefer hearing an echo and disdain whatever isn't.

[Winehole23]

"I doubt it."My reply to P2112. Not quick enuf.


What's your plan, Stan?Try to live my own life responsibly. Talk to others.

I can't change the world, or politics, but I can change my own life, and I might have a marginal effect on those around me.

What's your effing plan, b_d?

[Parker2112]

@Parker2112:

Like boutons, you seem to prefer hearing an echo and disdain whatever isn't.

look mane, I hate bigots. you hate bullies. and maybe neocons. but i am respectful of everyone on this board. except the closet bigots. and sometimes neocons. you are respectful of everyone except the bullies.

but where is the disdain you speak of outside of those two situations? and where is the big difference between my list and yours? so i made your list...CC and Darrin made mine... whats your point?

and btw, i didnt put that thread together because i took your advice. i thought it would be hopelessly and pointlessly feeding the frenzy.

[Winehole23]

look mane, I hate bigots. you hate bullies. and maybe neocons. but i am respectful of everyone on this board.No, you're not.


but where is the disdain you speak of outside of those two situations?Rampant and more or less indiscriminate IMO. Plus, it's a definite sign of immaturity to take the jackassedness of others as carte blanche to act like a jackass yourself.

[Parker2112]

No, you're not.

Rampant and more or less indiscriminate IMO. Plus, it's a definite sign of immaturity to take the jackassedness of others as carte blanche to act like a jackass yourself.

link? or WC/dog ate your homework syndrome?

My personal challenge to you: Put the dagger in winehole! Drive your assumptions home with proof sir!

[spurster]

1. Reduce defense spending 50%. Is there some reason we need to be the world's policeman? I think the world can make a mess of itself without us helping. We need to maintain current alliances (Europe, Pacific), but we don't need these fruitless attempts to bring democracy and Western civilization where there is little or no support.

2. Cut financial support of Israel. I don't know about you, but I've been poked in the eye enough by these idiots. I'm not sure who else is getting big bucks from us.

3. Implement a SS tax above the Social Security Wage Base. Implement means-testing.

4. Implement evidence-based medicine and transparent medical costs. For the enormous costs at the end of life, pay for cures but not for death.

5. Legalize and tax drugs. Start with marijuana. Try it for 5-10 years and think about what to do next when we find out that the world did not end.

6. Tax unhealthy food, a fat-added tax and a sugar-added tax and a salt-added tax.

7. Too bad for Bush's tax cuts. I would target any tax breaks directly toward businesses that provide US jobs at decent wages. You get up to 1 credit for each US citizen/legal immigrant you employ, from some fraction for minimum wage to the whole credit for a wage equal to median household income (about $50,000/year).

[Parker2112]

1. Reduce defense spending 50%. Is there some reason we need to be the world's policeman? I think the world can make a mess of itself without us helping. We need to maintain current alliances (Europe, Pacific), but we don't need these fruitless attempts to bring democracy and Western civilization where there is little or no support.

2. Cut financial support of Israel. I don't know about you, but I've been poked in the eye enough by these idiots. I'm not sure who else is getting big bucks from us.

3. Implement a SS tax above the Social Security Wage Base. Implement means-testing.

4. Implement evidence-based medicine and transparent medical costs. For the enormous costs at the end of life, pay for cures but not for death.

5. Legalize and tax drugs. Start with marijuana. Try it for 5-10 years and think about what to do next when we find out that the world did not end.

6. Tax unhealthy food, a fat-added tax and a sugar-added tax and a salt-added tax.

7. Too bad for Bush's tax cuts. I would target any tax breaks directly toward businesses that provide US jobs at decent wages. You get up to 1 credit for each US citizen/legal immigrant you employ, from some fraction for minimum wage to the whole credit for a wage equal to median household income (about $50,000/year).

I like where you go...and most importantly, the two party system will never implement any of this.

[DarkReign]

Try to live my own life responsibly. Talk to others.

I can't change the world, or politics, but I can change my own life, and I might have a marginal effect on those around me.

What's your effing plan, b_d?

My plan is to take as much money out of this world as I can.

Government contracts, automotive bailouts, anything short of welfare, SS or Medicaid, Im going to abuse the hell out of it.

Nothing, nothing is going to deter this country from bankruptcy, collapse and ultimate restructuring. You (the informal) hit while the iron is hot or you can lament your lot in life and complain about whats fair and right or how it is supposed to be.

Me? Im making money and shitting on my non-voting, American Idol worshipping neighbor every single chance I get.

Fuck em all.

[Winehole23]

link? Other posters can judge for themselves whether or not my opinion is off base. I don't expect you to own it.


My personal challenge to you: Put the dagger in winehole! Drive your assumptions home with proof sir!Your future behavior in this forum will prove or disprove my personal opinion. That is my challenge to you.

[Parker2112]

No, you're not.

Rampant and more or less indiscriminate IMO. Plus, it's a definite sign of immaturity to take the jackassedness of others as carte blanche to act like a jackass yourself.

when i was in the second grade, we had a kid in class that used to pick on everyone...including me. He was the class bully. he really wasnt a bad kid, he just liked getting his way.

one day we went out to the playground and he was pushing around a couple of smaller kids. i had had enough. I latched onto his throat in a headlock and road him like a bull around the playground, with him drooling and spitting out words like "I cant breef" and "yur choken me." at a whisper obviously

the teacher, Mrs. Bruner, sees me choking this kid and tells me to get off of him. she never gets up, because she knows the kid is a bully, which is fortunate for everyone involved looking back. I tell little Willy: "I will let you go if you promise to leave everyone else alone." he doesnt. i choke harder. he promises.

I let him go and he collapses to the ground. i help him up, and he plays nice for the rest of the year. we became friends, willie and me. and he was accepted by other kids after that.

My point? (1) some evils are better off choked out. (2) you could get away with alot more shit at school in 82...

[Parker2112]

Other posters can judge for themselves whether or not my opinion is off base. I don't expect you to own it.

Your future behavior in this forum will prove or disprove my personal opinion. That is my challenge to you.

done, and done.

[Winehole23]

There's more than one way to skin a cat, Parker. But yeah, if you did that in school today it could easily be a criminal matter.

[Sportcamper]

I think if we outlawed hunting & confiscate all scope rifles, we could then sell them to China & make a ton of money…That would reduce the deficit…:tu

[Parker2112]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. But yeah, if you did that in school today it could easily be a criminal matter.

true, and that would prevent willy from learning his lesson. i dont know how long Willy's new found friendly attitude lasted...he went to another home room the next year, as did I...but the acceptance by his peers alone might have done a world of good. just a guess.

[TeyshaBlue]

when i was in the second grade, we had a kid in class that used to pick on everyone...including me. He was the class bully. he really wasnt a bad kid, he just liked getting his way.

one day we went out to the playground and he was pushing around a couple of smaller kids. i had had enough. I latched onto his throat in a headlock and road him like a bull around the playground, with him drooling and spitting out words like "I cant breef" and "yur choken me." at a whisper obviously

the teacher, Mrs. Bruner, sees me choking this kid and tells me to get off of him. she never gets up, because she knows the kid is a bully, which is fortunate for everyone involved looking back. I tell little Willy: "I will let you go if you promise to leave everyone else alone." he doesnt. i choke harder. he promises.

I let him go and he collapses to the ground. i help him up, and he plays nice for the rest of the year. we became friends, willie and me. and he was accepted by other kids after that.

My point? (1) some evils are better off choked out. (2) you could get away with alot more shit at school in 82...

lolz.

I used to get my ass kicked in grade school by a freakin bully. My dog had puppies. I gave him one. Never bothered me again, and we became buddies. He also stopped picking on other kids.

[Sportcamper]

Or another idea…Give congress & the senate a 30% pay cut just like the average American worker have received…Lets see here…Confiscate scope rifles? Reduce career politician’s salaries?

Which do you folks prefer?

[TeyshaBlue]

lolz.

I used to get my ass kicked in grade school by a freakin bully. My dog had puppies. I gave him one. Never bothered me again, and we became buddies. He also stopped picking on other kids.

puppies pwn chokehold?:lol

[Parker2112]

lolz.

I used to get my ass kicked in grade school by a freakin bully. My dog had puppies. I gave him one. Never bothered me again, and we became buddies. He also stopped picking on other kids.

different personalities are molded differently. My bold choke-attack was rewarded, and ultimately reinforced my tendency towards fire with fire. if i had had a puppy, i might be less immature in my approach.

[CosmicCowboy]

1. Reduce defense spending 50%. Is there some reason we need to be the world's policeman? I think the world can make a mess of itself without us helping. We need to maintain current alliances (Europe, Pacific), but we don't need these fruitless attempts to bring democracy and Western civilization where there is little or no support.

That could probably be done.


2. Cut financial support of Israel. I don't know about you, but I've been poked in the eye enough by these idiots. I'm not sure who else is getting big bucks from us.

Financial support to Israel is only one small component of our overall foreign aid picture.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1261.pdf

Why are you singling out Israel? Personal bias?


3. Implement a SS tax above the Social Security Wage Base. Implement means-testing.

If you are going to implement means testing then lets just end the fraud of a "social security trust fund" completely. Raise everyones tax rate by 8% across the board and just pay the "needy" when they get old. Tell the ones that scrimped and saved for retirement to fuck off, they should have blown their money while they had the chance.


4. Implement evidence-based medicine and transparent medical costs. For the enormous costs at the end of life, pay for cures but not for death.

The question is where exactly do you draw the line? I agree some of the extreme life extending stuff (usually done because the family demands it) is obscene, but are you going to deny a diabetic dialysis because they can't be cured? The problem is, who is going to play god and decide?


5. Legalize and tax drugs. Start with marijuana. Try it for 5-10 years and think about what to do next when we find out that the world did not end.

I have no problem with this, but we eventually run out of sin taxes.


6. Tax unhealthy food, a fat-added tax and a sugar-added tax and a salt-added tax.

Then again, with attitudes like yours, maybe we won't run ever out of sin taxes. What next?


7. Too bad for Bush's tax cuts. I would target any tax breaks directly toward businesses that provide US jobs at decent wages. You get up to 1 credit for each US citizen/legal immigrant you employ, from some fraction for minimum wage to the whole credit for a wage equal to median household income (about $50,000/year).

The idea that you can spend tax dollars/credits to fundamentally change behavior is the attitude that got us in this fucked up mess to start with. Any time the Federal government takes in X amount in taxes they never pay back the full X. They always skim their cream off the top and play politics with the rest. Before you know it, they are allocating those job credits only to their "approved" jobs...The economy is better off if the Feds never took X in the first place.

[TeyshaBlue]

different personalities are molded differently. My bold choke-attack was rewarded, and ultimately reinforced my tendency towards fire with fire. if i had had a puppy, i might be less immature in my approach.

Or try the combo approach. Threaten to choke a puppy if he doesn't leave you alone.:lol

[Parker2112]

Or try the combo approach. Threaten to choke a puppy if he doesn't leave you alone.:lol

good one...:lol

"Stop licking me puppy, or its the sleeper!"

[CosmicCowboy]

And Parker was trying to arrange a Political forum GTG? Having choke-down fantasies are we?

[Winehole23]

It's for your own good, CC.

[Parker2112]

And Parker was trying to arrange a Political forum GTG? Having choke-down fantasies are we?


It's for your own good, CC.

lmfao

[CosmicCowboy]

It's for your own good, CC.

:lol

[Winehole23]

Plus, it's a public service. (Allegedly.)

[Parker2112]

And Parker was trying to arrange a Political forum GTG? Having choke-down fantasies are we?

i stopped that shit in 02...when i turned in my uniforms for TDCJ :wow

[CosmicCowboy]

i stopped that shit in 02...when i turned in my uniforms for TDCJ :wow

The white one?

[Parker2112]

The white one?

i did a decade in grey.

[baseline bum]

I object and take exception to people who say that Obama & Congress are spending money like a drunken sailor…As a former drunken sailor, I quit when I ran out of money…

:rollin

[baseline bum]

1. Reduce defense spending 50%. Is there some reason we need to be the world's policeman? I think the world can make a mess of itself without us helping. We need to maintain current alliances (Europe, Pacific), but we don't need these fruitless attempts to bring democracy and Western civilization where there is little or no support.

2. Cut financial support of Israel. I don't know about you, but I've been poked in the eye enough by these idiots. I'm not sure who else is getting big bucks from us.

3. Implement a SS tax above the Social Security Wage Base. Implement means-testing.

4. Implement evidence-based medicine and transparent medical costs. For the enormous costs at the end of life, pay for cures but not for death.

5. Legalize and tax drugs. Start with marijuana. Try it for 5-10 years and think about what to do next when we find out that the world did not end.

6. Tax unhealthy food, a fat-added tax and a sugar-added tax and a salt-added tax.

7. Too bad for Bush's tax cuts. I would target any tax breaks directly toward businesses that provide US jobs at decent wages. You get up to 1 credit for each US citizen/legal immigrant you employ, from some fraction for minimum wage to the whole credit for a wage equal to median household income (about $50,000/year).

I agree with everything but #6, assuming you just mean standard sales tax and not an extra sin tax on weed and the rest of the bad drugs that are illegal currently.

[CosmicCowboy]

i did a decade in grey.

Interesting. You must have really felt isolated and alone in that generally conservative culture.

[Parker2112]

Interesting. You must have really felt isolated and alone in that generally conservative culture.

I dont fit in many groups actually. I make a habit of questioning the prevailing school of thought.

But I forged some lifelong friendships there.

and after working 20-30 executions under bush i came to oppose the death penalty. youre right, most of my co-workers tended to mock the protesters, and at the time even i tended to think that they were extremists, but i still didnt agree with the law.

but i respected bush for letting the judiciary do their job, and when he first ran, i thought he might make a decent president if at least he would respect the seperation of powers.

BOY WAS I WRONG! that power grabbing mofo :lol

[xrayzebra]

America is bankrupt.

America is a fraud.



Why do you worry about the rest, since America is a fraud, twerp?

[Parker2112]

Why do you worry about the rest, since America is a fraud, twerp?

what a dick.

[xrayzebra]

The Repug lie is that the deficit is due Magic Negro's spending.

The truth is that the deficit is almost completely on the Repugs, conservative/free market bullshit, neo-c*nt botched wars.


http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036


.

And there you have it. The resident Communist has proven his factoid.
Now we know why Obama got in office.

It is all Bush fault, along with Republicans. Good lord, no wonder we
are in trouble. Under-educated idiots.

[Parker2112]

Why do you worry about the rest, since America is a fraud, twerp?

girlfriend not giving it up or what? :lol

[Parker2112]

Damn, I need some pussy.

fify

[xrayzebra]

what a dick.


You have a problem with calling a dumb Communist a twerp. I don't!

[xrayzebra]

Parker 2112 is like most of his elk, a fraud and cant do much else than put false words
into someone else mouth.

Please partake of a aeronautical intercourse at revolving pastry.

Take your time, you will figure it out. Maybe.

[Sportcamper]

He's Back...HAL 9000

[xrayzebra]

He's Back...HAL 9000

Hey Sport, How's it going in the fire capital of the world. Hope everything
is going well with you and you aren't choked down with all the wildfires.

Hey maybe you can get Putin to come over and direct the fire fighting
effort in your part of the world......:lol

How's the kids?

[ElNono]

Financial support to Israel is only one small component of our overall foreign aid picture.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1261.pdf

Why are you singling out Israel? Personal bias?

Did you actually look at that thing you linked?

Israel is right behind Iraq and Afghanistan, where we are pouring money for obvious reasons. Heck, Israel gets more money than what the US gives the entire Western Hemisphere combined.

What for exactly?

I don't necessarily agree about cutting all the aid, but if you're going to trim in that area, Israel should get a sizeable cut.

[Sportcamper]

Hal-The weather is beyond perfect, mid 70’s with a costal breeze…Everything in my area has already burned-up over the past three years, we don’t have any fires…(Other than the ones YOU TEXANS will be putting out when Congress makes you fiscal responsible folks bail out our state…:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Did you actually look at that thing you linked?

Israel is right behind Iraq and Afghanistan, where we are pouring money for obvious reasons. Heck, Israel gets more money than what the US gives the entire Western Hemisphere combined.

What for exactly?

I don't necessarily agree about cutting all the aid, but if you're going to trim in that area, Israel should get a sizeable cut.

So you are bigoted specifically against Jews. Nice.

[xrayzebra]

Hal-The weather is beyond perfect, mid 70’s with a costal breeze…Everything in my area has already burned-up over the past three years, we don’t have any fires…(Other than the ones YOU TEXANS will be putting out when Congress makes you fiscal responsible folks bail out our state…:lmao


I may have to come out there and injure you, you keep rubbing it in with
that weather report.......hot as you know what and I have been bragging
about no 100 degree days here.

Yeah, and we have a governor who is running again for the nth time and
no doubt in my mind has visions of grandeur of being president in 2012.

Thank goodness the governor in Texas has very little power except
the power of talking. Lt. Governor has the power.

And a Dimm-o-crap wannabe governor who is more Liberal than Obama.

But no matter.

Hey watched "Two Jacks" the other night on TV. Thought about you.

[ElNono]

So you are bigoted specifically against Jews. Nice.

You keep inferring things that are not true.

I support cuts across the board, not just Israel, and stated so.

You didn't answer the question either: What is it exactly we're sending a good chunk of change to Israel for exactly?

[CosmicCowboy]

You keep inferring things that are not true.

I support cuts across the board, not just Israel, and stated so.

You didn't answer the question either: What is it exactly we're sending a good chunk of change to Israel for exactly?

Fuck if I know.

I wouldn't mind eliminating all foreign aid, I'm just not gonna single out the Jews to pick on.

[ElNono]

Fuck if I know.

I wouldn't mind eliminating all foreign aid, I'm just not gonna single out the Jews to pick on.

I don't think cutting all aid is a good idea. At the same time, I'd like to know what we're getting for our money.

[Parker2112]

Fuck if I know.

I wouldn't mind eliminating all foreign aid, I'm just not gonna single out the Jews to pick on.

come on man...all for military intervention with countries we have no business engaging but all for setting the diplomacy level at 0?

this is as naive and neo-con as it gets.

[CosmicCowboy]

come on man...all for military intervention with countries we have no business engaging but all for setting the diplomacy level at 0?

this is as naive and neo-con as it gets.

You have me confused with someone else. I've been saying for years there was no such thing as a win in Afghanistan.

[Nbadan]

Fuck if I know.

I wouldn't mind eliminating all foreign aid, I'm just not gonna single out the Jews to pick on.

OK, but that 'federal aid' is really just a stipend for the industrial/military complex because they must use the money to buy US military equipment...

[Parker2112]

You have me confused with someone else. I've been saying for years there was no such thing as a win in Afghanistan.

i talked with an officer from afghanistan yesterday...just got home.

he said they dont even know why they are there. he said they dont understand the orders coming down from top generals, that they seem to have alterior motives...especially when they advocate stuff like selling our military equipment to the afghans...equip that only about half of our guys have access too.

(its aboout $$$)

he also said he is going to invest in some companies that might get in on the mineral extraction for that recently discovered zinc or magnesium or whatever...

he said that there are enough minerals in afghanistan to pay off half of our national debt.

(unwinable? not if the aim is $$$)

he said that humvees and other equipment are being used and then reconditioned to sell after they are put down, to other countries ($$$)

war is a fuggin racket

[CosmicCowboy]

OK, but that 'federal aid' is really just a stipend for the industrial/military complex because they must use the money to buy US military equipment...

Look...it's unrealistic to think we don't need a military.

That being said, I'm not in favor of just cavalierly jumping into random engagements without some serious provocation.

When and if we do, however, I want our guys to be the best trained in the world and have the best kick-ass equipment in the world. Is there a lot of waste in military spending? Hell yes, but the monotonous hateful droning in here against the "military-industrial complex" is another typical knee jerk bullshit reaction. It's not black or white and either-or. I'm all for a lean and mean as hell military and it should be the objective of both Republicans and Democrats that we have one.

[Parker2112]

so we have the oil...we have the minerals...who else has something we want?

we've got this big bad military machine we have to demo and sell to countries around the world it seems...

[Parker2112]

one last thing...

i asked him the million dollar question: where is osama?

he said they know exactly where he is...they dont want him.

[CosmicCowboy]

so we have the oil...we have the minerals...who else has something we want?

we've got this big bad military machine we have to demo and sell to countries around the world it seems...

What a fool.

If Iraq was all about oil why did the new Iraqi government get 100% control of it's oil?

Same with Afghanistan. We aren't gonna get shit out of those mineral deposits.

Your cynical view of the world refuses to accept that our US foreign policy/state department is super liberal and altruistic. There simply aren't any oil/mineral grabs happening.

[CosmicCowboy]

one last thing...

i asked him the million dollar question: where is osama?

he said they know exactly where he is...they dont want him.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Maybe Obama's saving him for the 2012 election...:lmao

[Marcus Bryant]

Four pages later, the conclusion is inescapable. This country is fucked.

[Nbadan]

Not really, just get rid of the federal reserve and let the govt print its own money...the price to the economy will be periods of inflation and deflation but it could wipe most of the debt right off the books...

[Marcus Bryant]

crofl.

[Parker2112]

What a fool.

If Iraq was all about oil why did the new Iraqi government get 100% control of it's oil?

Same with Afghanistan. We aren't gonna get shit out of those mineral deposits.

Your cynical view of the world refuses to accept that our US foreign policy/state department is super liberal and altruistic. There simply aren't any oil/mineral grabs happening.

its not we, the taxpayers, simpleton.

its they, the political contributors, the firms that get the contracts.
since when does our govt act in the best interests of the people:lol

not when they are paid through political contributions and bribes to politicians

[Parker2112]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Maybe Obama's saving him for the 2012 election...:lmao

look man, the guy was an officer stationed in kabul...in and out of central command there.

his explanation makes a shitload of sense:
if we bag bin laden...the demand for the boys to come home is going to impede the real reason they are over there. which he isnt clear what that reason actually is.

he said bin laden could be had in less than two hours if that was the objective.

how easily can the people be led to believe what they are told?

how easily can sheep be led from one pasture to another?

[CosmicCowboy]

its not we, the taxpayers, simpleton.

its they, the political contributors, the firms that get the contracts.
since when does our govt act in the best interests of the people:lol

not when they are paid through political contributions

I'M the simpleton?

Who got the Iraqi oil contracts? Are you saying it's all US companies?

And BTW of course I know politicians of both parties are susceptible to contribution corruption.

[Nbadan]

crofl.

Sorry, continue on with your woe-is-us thread..

[Parker2112]

I'M the simpleton?

Who got the Iraqi oil contracts? Are you saying it's all US companies?

And BTW of course I know politicians of both parties are susceptible to contribution corruption.

agreed. but the "who" that got the contracts is the same "who" that greases the pockets of gov officials in our country

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, I suppose when hyperinflation is a perfectly palatable option, there's no problem here.

All that would accomplish is expediting the process.

[CosmicCowboy]

look man, the guy was an officer stationed in kabul...in and out of central command there.

his explanation makes a shitload of sense:
if we bag bin laden...the demand for the boys to come home is going to impede the real reason they are over there. which he isnt clear what that reason actually is.

he said bin laden could be had in less than two hours if that was the objective.

how easily can the people be led to believe what they are told?

how easily can sheep be led from one pasture to another?

Look my tinfoiled sheeplehead. Let me break this down for you.

Obama doesn't give a rats ass about the long term goal (of which we have none) in Afghanistan. None. Zero.

He cares about his popularity...which is falling like a fucking piano kicked out the back of a C17.

If BinLaden was really available at 2 hours notice he would nab his ass, dance a jig, and announce "Mission Accomplished"!

And yes, dumbass the mission accomplished reference was intentional.

[Parker2112]

I'M the simpleton?

Who got the Iraqi oil contracts? Are you saying it's all US companies?

And BTW of course I know politicians of both parties are susceptible to contribution corruption.

question: since when does a company have to be a "US" company to grease the wheels of govt?

And what IS a US company? so many are fleening our country that i dont think that distinction applies anymore. so what if your headquarters is here? if all your operations are in southeast asia, who gives a fuck?

[Nbadan]

Yeah, I suppose when hyperinflation is a perfectly palatable option, there's no problem here.

All that would accomplish is expediting the process.

Not really....if the govt did the right thing and contracted the money supply when the economy was growing more than 3% we could avoid most hyper-inflation...

[Nbadan]

...the plan is to monetize the debt anyway, long-term....eliminating the Federal Reserve just eliminates the middle man...

[Marcus Bryant]

Right, the government is going to inflate $10+ trillion in debt into worthlessness with no problem and then stop on a dime and choke it off with no social upheaval.

[Parker2112]

Look my tinfoiled sheeplehead. Let me break this down for you.

Obama doesn't give a rats ass about the long term goal (of which we have none) in Afghanistan. None. Zero.

He cares about his popularity...which is falling like a fucking piano kicked out the back of a C17.

If BinLaden was really available at 2 hours notice he would nab his ass, dance a jig, and announce "Mission Accomplished"!

And yes, dumbass the mission accomplished reference was intentional.

im not coming up with this info...this came from a conservative member of the armed forces who has spent the last year in afghanistan. no shit. not pulling your leg here.

as for obama's popularity, i agree it is paramount on his list of concerns. but if you believe that obama is a front for a set of agendas going on in the background, agendas that would sacrifice obama to get 'er done, then you might start to see the possibilities.

the bush/obama front protects big $$$. that simple.

[Parker2112]

lol @ the belief that the repub/dem label still means anything in the whitehouse

[Nbadan]

Right, the government is going to inflate $10+ trillion in debt into worthlessness with no problem and then stop on a dime and choke it off with no social upheaval.

...actually it only has to monetize the part of the debt that is foreign owned which is less that 3? 2? the rest is just wiped from the books since its just an accounting move now anyway...

[Nbadan]

lol @ the belief that the repub/dem label still means anything in the whitehouse

Pro-active war?

[Marcus Bryant]

Of course, it's all just numbers and bytes. All that accomplishes is going off the cliff faster and earlier.

[Nbadan]

Of course, it's all just numbers and bytes. All that accomplishes is going off the cliff faster and earlier.

I don't think we are going off the cliff at all..I'm just playing along...

[Parker2112]

Pro-active war?

well, i guess it does mean that...

[EmptyMan]

We know.

What will be done? Not a damn thing.

[spurster]

Why are you singling out Israel? Personal bias?


Their stupid behavior is more in the news than other countries we support (which is apparently the whole world minus the "evil axis"). I thought it was a lot higher than $3B/year. Consider that plank taken out.



The question is where exactly do you draw the line? I agree some of the extreme life extending stuff (usually done because the family demands it) is obscene, but are you going to deny a diabetic dialysis because they can't be cured? The problem is, who is going to play god and decide?


I won't deny any normal procedure that extends quality of life, but doctors and hospitals paying for their own fruitless medical procedures would be a strong incentive not to do them.

[ducks]

stop giving other countries money

tell china to forgive the 894 billion dollars usa owes them

do not do more stimulas packages

gov has no money how can they give more money away
use a brain!

[Nbadan]

tell china to forgive the 894 billion dollars usa owes them

I see this posted by wing-nuts all the time....why should China forgive a trillion dollars in foreign debt but not Japan, or Great Britain or any other country that owns our debt? Can someone explain this?

[DarkReign]

I don't think we are going off the cliff at all..I'm just playing along...

Really, Dan?

You seriously dont believe the US balance sheet is in ICU?

Brother, we're bankrupt, we/they just dont know it yet or just dont want to believe it.

If any other country in the world had a debt ratio similar to ours, theyd be bankrupt (see Greece, Spain).

[DarkReign]

stop giving other countries money

tell china to forgive the 894 billion dollars usa owes them

do not do more stimulas packages

gov has no money how can they give more money away

1. Irrelevant.

2. Never going to happen. Do you think the Chinese lent the money under the assumption it would actually be paid back? :lmao

3. "Stimulus", but yeah, agreed.

4. Government has nothing to do with the money supply. The Fed controls the money supply and theyre (to steal a phrase) about as "federal" as Federal Express.


use a brain!

Sweet, sweet irony.

[DarkReign]

The very bottom line for this country is unpalatable for a large portion of its citizens.

Cut spending of all colors (military and social programs) and raise taxes on everyone, especially the wealthy (<-- who control your country).

Raising taxes proportionally across the population will not get the country out from under its debt. Seeing as the tax rate would have to be raised significantly, for a middle class citizen (and lower), the incentive to work "under the table" outweighs the potential tax burden.

There is no easy answer. No magic bullets. If wealth in this country were spread more evenly across the socio-economic scale, getting out from under our national debt wouldnt be as much of a problem as it currently is. I'll let others argue as to the hows and whys of the reality, but to me, the bottom line is that the top 10% have nearly all the wealth and in order for the government to run a surplus, they have to tax their citizens more than they already are and significantly decrease expenditures.

You know, I started typing a lot more, but I have been owned way too many times in economic discussions. Since this is a fantasy land thread, unless the proposed debt reduction strategy was immediately followed by a mandatory Amendment to the US Constitution about future debt allowance and management at the local, state and federal level, our country will find itself in this position sometime in the near future anyway.

Social Security needs to be axed entirely. The foreign wars need to end, immediately. States need to take long hard looks at their welfare spending. The entire framework of federal funds allocation in Congress needs to be overhauled.

It comes right down to a fundamental shift in American politics and lifestyle that frankly, this country couldnt handle.

Stop SS payments while still collecting as a new tax? Unthinkable.
Welfare being reduced by over half and even then there is a time limit? Social unrest.
Stop the military engagements and overall war machine? A proliferation of arms and armor flooding the world market with American military technology. These HUGE businesses will not go out of business because America doesnt want to fund and buy their products.

Our entire trade relations with the world would have to change overnight at great cost to major corporations who are used to having their products made in sweat shops across the globe.

The cost of goods would intially skyrocket (except for maybe food, but idk). All textiles, all electronics, all cars, all office supplies, all everything that is ultimately nonessential (but is to a typical American) would be priced right out of the normal man's budget until someone or some company figured out how to make things "in house" at some believable cost.

That could take years, most likely decades. A fundamental shift in lifestyle for every American.

It is the only option left on the table, IMO, but this country couldnt handle it.

I suck at economics, Ive learned that in my time here, so I am sure this will get torn apart. So be it. Its just an internet forum and this doesnt make any fucking difference in the world as we know it. We're all just playing a game, ultimately.

[boutons_deux]

synopsis of DR: America is fucked, and unfuckable.

[DarkReign]

synopsis of DR: America is fucked, and unfuckable.

More or less, yes. Agreed.

[SnakeBoy]

My plan is to take as much money out of this world as I can.

Government contracts, automotive bailouts, anything short of welfare, SS or Medicaid, Im going to abuse the hell out of it.

Nothing, nothing is going to deter this country from bankruptcy, collapse and ultimate restructuring. You (the informal) hit while the iron is hot or you can lament your lot in life and complain about whats fair and right or how it is supposed to be.

Me? Im making money and shitting on my non-voting, American Idol worshipping neighbor every single chance I get.

Fuck em all.


Now that's the right attitude. Spoken like a true patriot. No sarcasm...I mean that.

[Nbadan]

Really, Dan?

...

If any other country in the world had a debt ratio similar to ours, theyd be bankrupt (see Greece, Spain).

that's just silly...you've fallen for the doom-and-gloom which is understandable because we are talking about big bucks here...in truth there are many countries with a greater or close to the gross debt to percentage of GDP ratio of the US...

Gross debt as percentage of GDP
2007 2011 Forecast
Austria 62% 82%
France 70% 99%
Germany 65% 85%
Greece 104% 130%
Ireland 28% 93%
Italy 112% 130%
Japan 167% 204%
Netherlands 52% 82%
Portugal 71% 97%
Spain 42% 74%
United Kingdom 47% 71%
United States 62% 100%
Asia1 37% 41%
Central Europe2 23% 29%
Latin America3 41% 35%

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt)

[Drachen]

that's just silly...you've fallen for the doom-and-gloom which is understandable because we are talking about big bucks here...in truth there are many countries with a greater or close to the gross debt to percentage of GDP ratio of the US...

Gross debt as percentage of GDP
2007 2011 Forecast
Austria 62% 82%
France 70% 99%
Germany 65% 85%
Greece 104% 130%
Ireland 28% 93%
Italy 112% 130%
Japan 167% 204%
Netherlands 52% 82%
Portugal 71% 97%
Spain 42% 74%
United Kingdom 47% 71%
United States 62% 100%
Asia1 37% 41%
Central Europe2 23% 29%
Latin America3 41% 35%

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt)

Does this include IOUs to the lockbox? I think that was the point of the original article.

[SnakeBoy]

that's just silly...you've fallen for the doom-and-gloom which is understandable because we are talking about big bucks here...in truth there are many countries with a greater or close to the gross debt to percentage of GDP ratio of the US...

Gross debt as percentage of GDP
2007 2011 Forecast
Austria 62% 82%
France 70% 99%
Germany 65% 85%
Greece 104% 130%
Ireland 28% 93%
Italy 112% 130%
Japan 167% 204%
Netherlands 52% 82%
Portugal 71% 97%
Spain 42% 74%
United Kingdom 47% 71%
United States 62% 100%
Asia1 37% 41%
Central Europe2 23% 29%
Latin America3 41% 35%

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt)

Wow! That makes me feel so much better. We aren't the most fucked up. We're not Number 1! We're not Number 1! We're not Number 1! We're not Number 1!

[Nbadan]

Wow! That makes me feel so much better. We aren't the most fucked up. We're not Number 1! We're not Number 1! We're not Number! We're not Number 1!


Hell, were not even worse off than we were after WW2

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/US_Federal_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President.jpg

[Drachen]

We also didn't have as many unfunded responsibilities in the late forties.
Do you forsee a period of economic growth over the next 50 years which exceeds the multiple of the last 50-60 years?

[SnakeBoy]

Dan you're reminding me of that commercial with the drill sargent as a counselor...you're not making me feel better.

We have 25 years of absolutely no military threat to our sovereignty and yet we are rapidly approaching the debt levels of WWII.

[Drachen]

Oh and werent taxes considerably higher back then?

[DarkReign]

Oh and werent taxes considerably higher back then?

"Considerably" doesnt even begin to convey the proper gravity.

According to this link (maybe not a great source)...

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

In 1931 the top echelon of earners paid a maximum 25% of income in taxes.

In 1932, that number jumped to 63% and increases evermore to a maxmium of 94% in 1944. It was still at 91% in 1963.

Obviously, the tax code was very different then and even the prelude to the link states that the chart doesnt include deductions. Deductions at the time could have been far more generous and easy to come by then as opposed to now.

Still...

94%?!

[Drachen]

Yeah, that is what I am saying. I guess the only way to do an apples to apples comparison is to find out what percentage of GDP the Federal Government actually took in as revenue.
Right now, it is about 14% right?

[Nbadan]

We also didn't have as many unfunded responsibilities in the late forties.
Do you forsee a period of economic growth over the next 50 years which exceeds the multiple of the last 50-60 years?

What era are we in? It depends on what you believe I suppose...I fore-see technology doing incredible things in the coming generation that could spark unprecedented economic possibilities in many industries....but it all depends on how it is used by business and American multinationals in particular because as we've seen in the last 30 years, technology can be a double edged sword...

[Nbadan]

Dan you're reminding me of that commercial with the drill sargent as a counselor...you're not making me feel better.

We have 25 years of absolutely no military threat to our sovereignty and yet we are rapidly approaching the debt levels of WWII.

The debt is a problem and will become more of a problem if we don't get the economy generating an increasing amount of tax revenue....but you don't curb spending and consumer demand during a period of high-unemployment, although one can argue that historically, 9.8% is only moderately high, but that's a topic for another thread...

[boutons_deux]

"9.8% is only moderately high"

feds have been lying for a couple decades, changing how they count unemployed. The real rate is about 22%.

Still waiting for right-wingers to tell us how, specifically, to get the economy going when the Repugs and Astro-turf tea bagging freaks storm Congress in November.

Damn, even campaign promises (lies) would do. But they ain't got nothing except destroy social security/medicare/medicaid and cut taxes for the corps and oligarchy.

[CosmicCowboy]

I actually agree with Bouton's on one thing. They are definitely fudging the unemployment numbers. REAL unemployment is probably 15% and if you include underemployment (people that took part time jobs because they couldn't get full time) Probably closer to 25%.

How they can count someone as not unemployed (yet not employed) just because their unemployment benefits finally expired after 2 years is fucking beyond me.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's virtually impossible for a kid with only a high school education to get a full time job.

[boutons_deux]

Even worse is how someone who wants a job but has "quit looking" is considered not unemployed.

America is fucking fraud, is fucked, is unfuckable.

and the Repugs will continue to fuck it more whether they win in Nov or not.

[coyotes_geek]

I actually agree with Bouton's on one thing. They are definitely fudging the unemployment numbers. REAL unemployment is probably 15% and if you include underemployment (people that took part time jobs because they couldn't get full time) Probably closer to 25%.

How they can count someone as not unemployed (yet not employed) just because their unemployment benefits finally expired after 2 years is fucking beyond me.

Yep. Obama & Co are fudging the numbers so that they don't have to acknowledge a double digit unemployment number.

[CosmicCowboy]

Even worse is how someone who wants a job but has "quit looking" is considered not unemployed.

America is fucking fraud, is fucked, is unfuckable.

and the Repugs will continue to fuck it more whether they win in Nov or not.

Boutons, why can't you just be intellectually honest and write "politicians of both parties" instead of Repugs?

SURELY you don't think the Democrat trash is any better?

[SnakeBoy]

but you don't curb spending and consumer demand during a period of high-unemployment

Yeah I get the concept, government spending money it doesn't have to fill in the gap until the american people come to their senses and start spending the money they don't have again. I just don't think it's going to work.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah I get the concept, government spending money it doesn't have to fill in the gap until the american people come to their senses and start spending the money they don't have again. I just don't think it's going to work.

Damn, that was profound. Well said.

I think regular people are done with buying on credit. That false easy credit boom economy is over and it ain't coming back. Virtually everyone I know including me is working a plan to be totally debt free ASAP.

[SnakeBoy]

Virtually everyone I know including me is working a plan to be totally debt free ASAP.

Good plan. I got totally debt free around two years ago. Not because I'm smart and saw anything coming, I just happened across Dave Ramsey's radio show 4-5 years ago and thought that makes sense. Life is much better when your debt free. We save alot but when we want something we just buy it and we don't have any stress over making the bills. Also there's no stress over losing a job or anything now because we know we can at least get by for a couple of years even without any income.

[ElNono]

I actually agree with Bouton's on one thing. They are definitely fudging the unemployment numbers. REAL unemployment is probably 15% and if you include underemployment (people that took part time jobs because they couldn't get full time) Probably closer to 25%.

How they can count someone as not unemployed (yet not employed) just because their unemployment benefits finally expired after 2 years is fucking beyond me.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're touching up the numbers a bit, but 25%? 1 in 4 americans without a job? Sounds exaggerated.
At least that's definitely not the case around here in Jersey.

[Nbadan]

Yep. Obama & Co are fudging the numbers so that they don't have to acknowledge a double digit unemployment number.

If your gonna look at it that way, then unemployment and underemployment numbers have been fudged since well before Obama came into office...but some of it is understandable...why should people who quit looking for work be counted against a unemployment number? If you've been out of work for more than two years, even in this economy, it's not because you can't find a job, it's because you can't find a job that your willing to accept for the salary that the employer is paying....

[Nbadan]

Yeah I get the concept, government spending money it doesn't have to fill in the gap until the american people come to their senses and start spending the money they don't have again. I just don't think it's going to work.

....the clog in the system is the Bush tax cuts shifting disposable income from the poor and middle class to the very rich...and the rich aren't out there creating jobs like the GOP promised would happen, they are speculating in derivatives in the stock market driving up the prices of commodities like Gold, Silver, energy ...and hoarding cash like CC.....

[SnakeBoy]

and hoarding cash like CC.....

Good for him, so am I. You can complain about how it messes up your idea of how the economy should work all you want. Fuck everyone else, I'm taking care of me and mine. Like I said to DR, it's the patriotic thing to do.

[ElNono]

Hoarding cash won't do you any good if the dollar gets devalued in a hyper-inflationary crisis. It's definitely a good idea to be debt-free, but you should diversify that cash into some dollar-proof assets. Gold maybe? Swiss Francs?

[SnakeBoy]

Hoarding cash won't do you any good if the dollar gets devalued in a hyper-inflationary crisis. It's definitely a good idea to be debt-free, but you should diversify that cash into some dollar-proof assets. Gold maybe? Swiss Francs?

I'm not concerned about hyper-inflation. In a nutshell, I think all of the govt spending has only provided a temporary pause in our deflationary crisis. When we lose our grip on the govt provided ledge we can get back to falling off the cliff. Then when we hit the bottom there will be excellent buying opportunities for those with cash on hand. My goal is to be one of those with cash on hand.

If I'm right I'll have the opportunity make some good money on the misfortune of others, if you're right and we are into any kind of real recovery then all I've lost is making some money now. I don't see hyper-inflation around the corner so I'm not concerned with protecting myself from that. Longer term perhaps I will but not now.

[ElNono]

I'm not concerned about hyper-inflation. In a nutshell, I think all of the govt spending has only provided a temporary pause in our deflationary crisis. When we lose our grip on the govt provided ledge we can get back to falling off the cliff. Then when we hit the bottom there will be excellent buying opportunities for those with cash on hand. My goal is to be one of those with cash on hand.

If I'm right I'll have the opportunity make some good money on the misfortune of others, if you're right and we are into any kind of real recovery then all I've lost is making some money now. I don't see hyper-inflation around the corner so I'm not concerned with protecting myself from that. Longer term perhaps I will but not now.

Be careful about that. If we were to hit rock bottom, then we would get to a deflationary spiral, which means the central bank wouldn't have enough liquidity to counter deflation, and the almost immediate reaction is to print more money and as a byproduct devalue the currency, which in turn normally ends in hyperinflation.

[SnakeBoy]

Be careful about that. If we were to hit rock bottom, then we would get to a deflationary spiral, which means the central bank wouldn't have enough liquidity to counter deflation, and the almost immediate reaction is to print more money and as a byproduct devalue the currency, which in turn normally ends in hyperinflation.

Now you're the one describing a doomsday scenario. One that I don't see happening. You say "normally ends in hyperinflation", do you have any historical examples which are similar to the US's current state?

As far as I know Japan's struggle with deflation since the 90's is most similar to our situation as far as I can tell and their big budget deficits, high debt, & expansion of the monetary base has only led to more deflation.

[ElNono]

Now you're the one describing a doomsday scenario. One that I don't see happening. You say "normally ends in hyperinflation", do you have any historical examples which are similar to the US's current state?

As far as I know Japan's struggle with deflation since the 90's is most similar to our situation as far as I can tell and their big budget deficits, high debt, & expansion of the monetary base has only led to more deflation.

Well, a spiraling and continuing deflation is already a doomsday scenario. Specially for this country, who lives on credit.

As far as Japan, as salaries fall faster than prices, it's going to get to a point where people are going to really start asking government to 'do something'.
IMO, they're a ticking time bomb, and sooner or later they're going to have to do something about it. That something might not end in hyperinflation, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

[Winehole23]

Hoarding cash won't do you any good if the dollar gets devalued in a hyper-inflationary crisis. It's definitely a good idea to be debt-free, but you should diversify that cash into some dollar-proof assets. Gold maybe? Swiss Francs?There is the small possibility of deflation first, but this is a quibble.

[Winehole23]

Oops. i see now you just mentioned it...

[Nbadan]

There is the small possibility of deflation first, but this is a quibble.

Maybe quibble but for the time being it means lower energy, food and entertainment prices...something I think we can all live with...

[Winehole23]

Gee, what's the downside?

[Nbadan]

Seriously, if you have a secure job, what's to complain about?

[Winehole23]

A secure job. In a phase of economic contraction. Ok. Best o luck to ye!

[Nbadan]

There are tons.....school teachers, administrators, police officers, EMTs, health specialists, engineers, doctors, nurses...

[Winehole23]

Disagree strongly. In principle everyone is replaceable.

[Nbadan]

Any entity would be cutting its own throat by getting rid of its top performers....Oh, sure, everyone is replaceable, but at what cost to the company? This is why education is important kids, make yourself irreplaceable!

[Winehole23]

Economic contraction puts a lot of technically qualified and indispensable people to the curb. Just saying.

[Nbadan]

...but...those people are among the first to get rehired...especially if they are willing to relocate..