Libertarian vs. Republican

[Parker2112]

Food for thought:
True libertarian would concede that a corporation's rights could not supercede the rights of a single individual.

Liberty is the bottom line.

True republican would crush the individual's liberty in the name of profit at every turn. just like a TRUE AUTHORITARIAN. "Turn over your resources or we will take your land little man..."

Even though the lip service is there, Liberty is not the benchmark with repubs...$$$ is. unless your talking about corporate liberty, that is...which in a republican philosophy outweighs the liberty of every man woman and child in this nation.

you guys need to understand what a libertarian school of thought actually is. Ill give you a hint...if you truly uphold constitutional ideals, the rights of citizens would quickly impede the corporate capitalist machine. Is it authoritarian to turn back capitalist corporations from maxing out profits when their respective business practices impede the rights of the individual? or just upholding the constitution?

depends on the party you belong to I suppose...

[Parker2112]

and if you want to know why repubs have embraced big govt in the last two decades, it is because they have realized that the possibilities are endless when you get behind the wheel of big govt. they can realize their wildest dreams when they can wield such power as the federal govt can provide...

[Wild Cobra]

Food for thought:

True libertarian would concede that a corporation's rights could not supercede the rights of a single individual.
Who says otherwise?


Liberty is the bottom line.

Not when your liberty takes away from others.


True republican would crush the individual's liberty in the name of profit at every turn. just like a TRUE AUTHORITARIAN. "Turn over your resources or we will take your land little man..."

Not true. Many of today's republicans are simply corrupted by the political process. Republicans, as the name implies, and those who are true to it, believe in a small central, and the 50 individual republics, each self regulating. Not a central democracy, in it's authoritarian glory like the democrats are in DC. That's why at the federal level, they keep trying to deregulate, so the states can do their own thing, unhampered by authoritarianism.


Even though the lip service is there, Liberty is not the benchmark with repubs...$$$ is. unless your talking about corporate liberty, that is...which in a republican philosophy outweighs the liberty of every man woman and child in this nation.

Corporate liberty and individual liberty is not mutually exclusive. It's obvious you are indoctrinated to believing so.


you guys need to understand what a libertarian school of thought actually is.
Libertarian thought is very wide and diverse, with the only commonality being anti-authoritarian.

Ill give you a hint...if you truly uphold constitutional ideals, the rights of citizens would quickly impede the corporate capitalist machine.
You are flat our wrong. How can anyone with thoughts of liberty impede capitalism?

Is it authoritarian to turn back capitalist corporations from maxing out profits when their respective business practices impede the rights of the individual? or just upholding the constitution?

Yes. I have stated early on, soon after you started posting here, you are not a libertarian. You are an authoritarian.


depends on the party you belong to I suppose...

And you most certainly are a control freak, but apparently, lie to yourself.

[Wild Cobra]

You ever read the libertarian party platform (http://www.lp.org/platform) They have no problems with corporations. Why do you?


2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

2.5 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository
institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
unconstitutional legal tender laws.


2.6 Monopolies and Corporations

We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

[Parker2112]

they do in fact have problems with corporations that commandeer big govt to dominate markets.

they also believe in private enforecement of legislative schemes, in a court of law, and respective of the rights of all citizens.

WC, the reason we dont have alternatives is that govt has indeed favored certain market players/offerings, as a result of extensive lobbying and pervasive campaign funding corruption. This goes against the libertarian views on monolopies and corporations as you have just stated them.


We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest.

Corporations are not inherently evil, but when they are backed by big government they become intolerable. When they infringe on the rights of the populous they become intolerable.

Why do you oppose the individual's right to stand up against corporations when his livelihood/property/health/way of life is affected?

Why do you oppose the pursuit of liberty?

[Parker2112]

Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife.

so it the insane regulatory bodies that we should do away with, but the aims of the libertarian party would still provide regulation, just through more efficient methods. clear legislative codes, tying the hands of courts to restore those that have been damaged when corporations do harm. and IT IS PRECISELY HERE THAT THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY WILL REWARD THOSE BUSINESSES THAT CAN PROVIDE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES WITHOUT PUTTING THE PUBLIC'S WELFARE AT RISK!

[Parker2112]

Not when your liberty takes away from others.

The rights of the individual inherently came first, since all corps are created by individuals. These rights dont take away from others/corps, they simply keep them at bay when corps overreach into citizens back yards.


Not a central democracy, in it's authoritarian glory like the democrats are in DC. That's why at the federal level, they keep trying to deregulate, so the states can do their own thing, unhampered by authoritarianism.

two points of fail here:
1. we all know that corruption is pervasive in govt, not simply in the dem party. the finger pointing is pointless in this day and age.

2. the deregulation takes place as part of a rigged game..it is simply an extension of the very same corruption that you admit to in your response. the thieves are already in our house, the deregulation just allows them to collect our belongings completely unfettered. to claim otherwise is to misstate the truth.


Corporate liberty and individual liberty is not mutually exclusive. It's obvious you are indoctrinated to believing so.
when we talk about environmental issues, it is the rights of individuals and communities that suffer. corporations can operate even in the filthiest of environments.


Libertarian thought is very wide and diverse, with the only commonality being anti-authoritarian.

you call on authoritarian philosophies regulary. see post#5.


You are flat our wrong. How can anyone with thoughts of liberty impede capitalism?

this response shows that indeed you have been indoctrinated into republican school of thought over the years. the answer is simple and obvious, and yet you will never hear it from a republican

the constitutionalist doesnt impede capitalism. the rights given in the constitution, to each individual, can however. you cant take those inalienable rights in the name of profit/capitalism, just as communist govts have no right to take the property of their own citizens in the name of the greater good.

and if the rights of every citizen are given equal value, as they should be, the corporation who would cut corners and trespass in the yard of neighbors in order to maximize profits would be forced to stop in their tracks...by the constitution itself.


Yes. I have stated early on, soon after you started posting here, you are not a libertarian. You are an authoritarian.

yes indeed, and the AUTHORITY IS THE CONSITUTION. WHEN THE CAPITALIST CORPS START FUCKING WITH THE PROPERTY RIGHTS/HEALTH/FAMILY OF THE INDVDUAL, THEY CAN AND MUST BE REBUKED. And someone like yourself would use an authoritarian view to take their property/health/family's health in the name of capitalism, in the nname of the greater good ($$$ and economic prosperity), not unlike communist china, with absolutely no legal authority other than republican custom.


And you most certainly are a control freak, but apparently, lie to yourself.


Its not controlling if it has constitutional precedent. inalienable rights, WC.

Better than having repugs lie to me, I suppose.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, the reason we dont have alternatives is that govt has indeed favored certain market players/offerings, as a result of extensive lobbying and pervasive campaign funding corruption. This goes against the libertarian views on monolopies and corporations as you have just stated them.

No shit.

We need to address the government abuse. Not act as if it's the people vs. corporations.


Corporations are not inherently evil, but when they are backed by big government they become intolerable. When they infringe on the rights of the populous they become intolerable.

Duh... So make the correct argument instead of making a people or corporation argument.


Why do you oppose the individual's right to stand up against corporations when his livelihood/property/health/way of life is affected?

Do you have an example I would disagree with? Most are illegal, except when a corporation greases officials hands yo use eminent domain.

It's your blanket statement that offends my intelligence.


Why do you oppose the pursuit of liberty?
It is you who does. When your pursuit of liberty believes in harming corporations in general, I say fuck you.

[Parker2112]

When your pursuit of liberty believes in harming corporations in general, I say fuck you.

and it is when corporations are shielded from liability for infringing on the rights of the individual citizen, by big govt, govt corruption, and a tendency towards adherence to capitalism rather than constitutionalism that you must say "fuck me."

[Wild Cobra]

and it is when corporations are shielded from liability for infringing on the rights of the individual citizen, by big govt, govt corruption, and a tendency towards adherence to capitalism rather than constitutionalism that you must say "fuck me."

I am not for them trampling on any one's rights. So few do. You act is if it's right to punish all for what a few do.

You seem to take everything as an all or nothing scenario. That is flat out wrong to do.

[Parker2112]

When your pursuit of liberty *results* in harming corporations in general, I say fuck you.

fify, and the result is utter fail. but it shows your heart.

[Wild Cobra]

fify, and the result is utter fail. but it shows your heart.
My sentiment works both ways. I equally hate people lake you who want to harm corporation, as I hate corporations that harm people.

[Parker2112]

I am not for them trampling on any one's rights. So few do. You act is if it's right to punish all for what a few do.

You seem to take everything as an all or nothing scenario. That is flat out wrong to do.

this whole topic arose as a discussion of the libertarians being incapable of holding environmentally responsible philosophies. I guess libertarians get lumped in with repubs too often.

My responses here are aimed at corps who would disenfranchise citizens from their property rights. Those corps that could operate without infringement would be rewarded, tose that operated at an unfair profit...by infringing on the rights of others to live unfettered would suffer greatly.

free market genius.

its that simple.

[Parker2112]

corps are only immune from environmental liability when the commandeer govt and the judicial process. that should tell you a great deal about the wide open market you advocate for.

WC you are advocating more corruption, where corps do not have to bow to the rights of the individual in their practices, you are advocating for republican authoritarianism, plain and simple.

[Parker2112]

My sentiment works both ways. I equally hate people lake you who want to harm corporation, as I hate corporations that harm people.

if this is true, then we can agree completely. but I would love to see every corporation who makes it a common practice to trample the rights of our citizens dismantled if they cannot discontinue the practice.

[Wild Cobra]

this whole topic arose as a discussion of the libertarians being incapable of holding environmentally responsible philosophies. I guess libertarians get lumped in with repubs too often.

My responses here are aimed at corps who would disenfranchise citizens from their property rights. Those corps that could operate without infringement would be rewarded, tose that operated at an unfair profit...by infringing on the rights of others to live unfettered would suffer greatly.

free market genius.

its that simple.
Then say so up front instead of generalizing.

[Wild Cobra]

corps are only immune from environmental liability when the commandeer govt and the judicial process. that should tell you a great deal about the wide open market you advocate for.

WC you are advocating more corruption, where corps do not have to bow to the rights of the individual in their practices, you are advocating for republican authoritarianism, plain and simple.Bullshit, and you cannot prove yourself right on that.

[Wild Cobra]

if this is true, then we can agree completely. but I would love to see every corporation who makes it a common practice to trample the rights of our citizens dismantled if they cannot discontinue the practice.
Sue them.

[Parker2112]

Sue them.

exactly what libertarians believe

[boutons_deux]

"Sue them"

Who pays the plaintiffs' $Ms in litigation costs to go against the corps' armies of $M lawyers? ACLU? Are you an ACLU contributor?

In America, you get only the "justice" that you can afford. And corps can afford to game the "justice" system and beat down citizen plaintiffs, just ask Exxon Valdez victims, now BP victims, Bhopal victims, etc, etc, etc.

[Ignignokt]

"Sue them"

Who pays the plaintiffs' $Ms in litigation costs to go against the corps' armies of $M lawyers? ACLU? Are you an ACLU contributor?

In America, you get only the "justice" that you can afford. And corps can afford to game the "justice" system and beat down citizen plaintiffs, just ask Exxon Valdez victims, now BP victims, Bhopal victims, etc, etc, etc.

Corporations are the product of a state sanctioning their legal rights.

You make this country free, you have better results.

Also, corporations can still influence the govt and have agencies do their bidding against their competitors under the guise of "regulation".

[boutons_deux]

"make this country free"

what freedoms are you or anybody else missing?

[Ignignokt]

"make this country free"

what freedoms are you or anybody else missing?

Definately economic freedom, or the freedom to do AC work, plumbing, etc.

The freedom to exempt myself from paying school taxes, etc.

[boutons_deux]

What's taking away your freedom from manual labor?

Are illegals getting a/c, plumbing licenses, paying professional insurance, and undercutting you?

Why not heed BecKKKs' dog whistles and become a "sovereign citizen", there are about 500K now, and declare yourself a law unto yourself, freedom from all laws and taxes?

[Ignignokt]

What's taking away your freedom from manual labor?

Are illegals getting a/c, plumbing licenses, paying professional insurance, and undercutting you?

Why not heed BecKKKs' dog whistles and become a "sovereign citizen", there are about 500K now, and declare yourself a law unto yourself, freedom from all laws and taxes?

Plumbing, Home inspection etc all are very protected professions. Nm.. i'm arguing with a moron.

[boutons_deux]

"very protected professions"

protected by the govt you hate, or protected by your fellow American plumbers and a/c guys?

How do you propose to knock down the barriers to your entry? Demand your hated govt to help you out? :lol

Barriers to entry are erected everywhere, because people and companies are un-regulatedly "free" to do it. Ain't freedom a wonderful thing?

[Parker2112]

"very protected professions"

protected by the govt you hate, or protected by your fellow American plumbers and a/c guys?

How do you propose to knock down the barriers to your entry? Demand your hated govt to help you out? :lol

Barriers to entry are erected everywhere, because people and companies are un-regulatedly "free" to do it. Ain't freedom a wonderful thing?

the point of this thread, from my perspective, is if the rights of the individual were respected, the corps would be a lot less powerful to implement the shitty corporate corner cutting/budget/low rent/ghetto/environment wrecking practices that we now are forced to live under.

Funny, no one has mentioned this:
the strength of corps rights actually stems from a very socialist approach that our gov and courts have adhered to for over a hundred years...

that being that when a corp benefits the masses it gets special considerations in light of that, imposition or injury to the individual notwithstanding.

funny how conservatives leave that part of the socialist accusations

[RandomGuy]

101a asked about what Libertarians believe. Bump.

[boutons_deux]

"when a corp benefits the masses it gets special considerations"

a corps exists to enrich the owners (shareholders) and (shareholding) mgmt.

What's this "benefits the masses" fantasy?

[SnakeBoy]

you guys need to understand what a libertarian school of thought actually is.

So far all you have done is present a "corporations are evil" argument, no different than boutons normal ramblings. How about giving some specifics on what the libertarian school of thought would do to change things. If you can???

You can leave out the "end the Fed" line that we all know is coming.

Thanks in advance Parker!