PDA

View Full Version : Good Article on Nuclear Power



MannyIsGod
08-16-2010, 02:43 PM
Nuclear fall in: Why I'm becoming a pro-nuke nut

By John Horgan (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/cross-check/index.cfm?author=35)
.atools_holder {border:#e4e0dd 1px solid; width:78px; background-color:#e4e0dd; color:#999; text-align:center; margin:0 0 5px 5px;} .atools_holder {text-align:-moz-center} .atools {width:98%; padding:3px 1px 0 0} .atools {text-align:-moz-center} .atools img {margin-bottom:5px; display:block;} .badge {padding: 2px; background-color:#fff; width:54px;margin-bottom:3px; left: 50%;} #atools_sponsor {width:88px;} #atools_sponsor span {font-size:8px !important; color:#999; font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif !important; text-align:center} http://www.scientificamerican.com/assets/img/interface/tools-Email.gif (http://www.scientificamerican.com/page.cfm?section=mailarticle&item_id=61DDCB4E-947F-BDE6-233FDE41FF4A1215) http://www.scientificamerican.com/assets/img/interface/tools-Print.gif (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=split-decisionor-nuclear-fall-in-wh-2010-08-16&print=true) http://www.scientificamerican.com/assets/img/interface/tools-Comment.gif (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=split-decisionor-nuclear-fall-in-wh-2010-08-16#commentbox) 0diggsdigg



http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/blog/Image/powertosave.jpeg My belated education in nuclear energy continues. I just read Power to Save the World: The Truth about Nuclear Energy (http://www.amazon.com/Power-Save-World-Nuclear-Vintage/dp/0307385876/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281269904&sr=1-1) by Gwyneth Cravens, a petite, energetic novelist and journalist. Cravens contacted me after seeing my chat with Rod Adams (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/27837), a nuclear-trained Naval officer, on Bloggingheads.tv last May (which I followed up with a post (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=maybe-nuclear-power-isnt-so-bad-aft-2010-05-11#comments)). I recently met Cravens during a tour of the Indian Point nuclear power plant in New York State, which she arranged. I'm feeling a lot better about living near Indian Point, less because of what I learned during my tour (although plant employees were quite informative) than because of Power to Save the World.
The 2007 book describes how Cravens morphed from a nuke-fearing greenie who in the 1980s opposed the Shoreham nuclear plant on Long Island, where she lives, into a proponent who believes that we need nuclear power to save us from global warming and other adverse effects of fossil fuels. Cravens repeats the refrain that the risks of nuclear energy have been exaggerated; nuclear power, both civilian and military, hasn't killed a single person in the U.S. over the past half century. But she fleshes out these statements with surprising (to me) details.
—Day in and day out we are all bombarded by radiation, including alpha and beta particles, x-rays and gamma rays. Americans receive an average of 360 millirem (a rem is a measure of radiation dosage) a year from radon gas and other background sources, cosmic rays (doses rise at higher elevations, where there is less atmospheric protection), consumer products (such as smoke detectors), and medical procedures. (I learned at Indian Point that the 360 estimate has recently been revised upward to 620). A set of dental x-rays delivers 39 millirem, a flight from New York City to Los Angeles 1.5 millirem. Radiation treatments for cancer can deliver millions of millirem to a specific organ and tens of thousands to the whole body. Federal regulations allow nuclear workers to receive up to 5,000 millirem annually, but they receive less than 240 on average. U.S. nuclear plants increase the radiation in their neighborhoods by less than one millirem a year, on average.
—There is no clear-cut evidence of adverse health effects from radiation at levels below 100,000 millirem a year. The health effects of radiation have been calculated from people who received extremely high doses, including survivors of the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Chernobyl accident, and "radium girls" who painted radium on watches and other instruments in the early 20th century. The cancer epidemiologist Charles Key told Cravens that "compared to tobacco, gasoline, drunk drivers or being a couch potato, radiation is of very little risk to most of the public."
—Claims about adverse effects from low levels of radiation are often based on a so-called linear non-threshold model. The model assumes, for example, that if an exposure of n millirem kills 50 percent of a population, then 0.1 n will kill 5 percent, 0.01 will kill 0.5 percent and so on. There is no evidence for this model. Background radiation from natural sources varies around the world from an annual dosage of less than 100 to over 10,000 millirem. (Residents of Ramsar, Iran, receive up to 26,000 millirem a year!) Studies have not found increased cancer or other illnesses in areas with naturally high radiation.
—Fifty plant and emergency workers died of acute radiation exposure in the 1986 Chernobyl disaster in the U.S.S.R., the worst nuclear accident in history. The explosion contaminated more than 200,000 square kilometers with radioactive fallout, but radiation in parts of this zone is now lower than in Finland and other regions of the world with naturally high radiation. The International Agency for Research on Cancer estimates that radiation releases from Chernobyl caused a slight increase in thyroid cancer but adds that "smoking will cause several thousand times more cancers in the same population." So far, there have been no excess deaths among the 200,000 "liquidators" who helped clean up the mess from Chernobyl compared with controls.
—The worst nuclear accident in U.S. history was the 1979 partial meltdown at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, which led to venting of radioactive gas. The highest dose received by plant workers was 4,000 millirem, 1,000 less than the annual dose permitted for U.S. nuclear workers. The highest dose for people living near the plant was 100 millirem. There is no credible evidence of increased cancer or birth defects among plant workers or residents near Three Mile Island.
—According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, so-called depleted uranium, which consists primarily of the isotope U 238 and not the more fissionable U 235, "has never caused a case of cancer in animals or humans." The dense metal is used to make tank armor, armor-piercing projectiles, shielding for x-ray machines, boat keels and other applications.
—Nuclear power in the U.S. has grown steadily more efficient and cheaper. Plants now operate at 90 percent of peak capacity (up from about 50 percent a few decades ago) compared with 73 percent for coal, 29 percent for hydroelectric, 16 to 38 percent for natural gas, 27 percent for wind and 19 percent for solar. In 2005 nuclear power was cheaper per kilowatt than any alternative.
—The waste from coal-burning plants is much greater in volume and more harmful than from nuclear generators. If you, as an average American, got all your electricity from nuclear plants, you'd generate one kilogram of nuclear waste during your lifetime, enough to fit in a soda can. If you got all your electricity from coal, you'd generate almost 70 tons of waste. Coal plants emit far more radioactive materials than nuclear plants do; each year a 1,000-megawatt coal plant disperses about 27 metric tons of uranium, thorium and other radioactive substances. Coals plants also emit mercury and other toxins, in addition of course to carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. An estimated 24,000 Americans die prematurely per annum because of pollution from coal plants; in China, the number is 400,000.
—Hydropower has killed many more people than nuclear power. About 1,000 Americans have died in dam collapses in the past 100 years. Dam collapses caused by a typhoon in China in 1975 killed 26,000 people immediately; another 145,000 people later died of disease and famine. The output of hydroelectric plants is decreasing because of droughts, possibly brought on by global warming.
—The footprint of nuclear power is much smaller than that of solar and wind. A 1,000-megawatt nuclear plant like Indian Point requires less than two square kilometers of land. Comparable solar and wind plants would require, respectively, 130 and 500 square kilometers of land, and they cannot produce a steady supply of power, as nuclear plants do.
I've always had a knee-jerk distrust of nuclear advocates, just as I have of right-wing Congressmen, psychiatric-drug shills and string theorists. But I trust Cravens and the experts she interviewed—including physicists, engineers and epidemiologists—over many years of reporting. If you're agonizing over whether to support nuclear energy, read Cravens's book and see if you find it as persuasive as I do. I also welcome (and expect) challenges to the assertions above.

DarrinS
08-16-2010, 03:22 PM
Good read. Thanks for posting it.

rjv
08-16-2010, 03:26 PM
fission for now. fusion for the future.

boutons_deux
08-16-2010, 03:28 PM
That article cherry-picks with great skill, and fails to address obvious issues.

"1,000 Americans have died in dam collapses in the past 100 years."

Are those all hydro dams? are ALL type of dams,like flood control dams?

Whose capital is going to finance nuclear power at $15B per site?

Who is going to finance the decommissioning?

Who is going to pay the insurance for construction and operation? Today, the private insurance payouts are capped at $11B, then then US taxpayer is on the hook for claims over $11B.

"nuclear power was cheaper per kilowatt than any alternative"

bullshit. That's like saying gasoline cost $3/gal when the real cost is like $15/gal.

does that "cheaper" include

total life-cycle costs like mining/refining fuel,

decommissioning nuclear plant,

storing nuclear waste?

I don't know enough to calculate, but I bet shitcanning or upgrading all the coal plants to be free of carbon and thermal emissions would be cheaper than going nuclear. Of course, I'm aware that the unaccounted for cost of toxic coal ash (which the coal industry has bribed the EPA not to classify as toxic) and the horrible destruction of mountaintop and strip mining are not included in the lying "price" of coal.

I'd much rather see $Ts invested in wind, ocean current, solar thermal and volataic than in nuclear.

btw, the asshole Repugs continue to obstruct any progress in the energy sector:

Alternative Energy Investments Fizzle in U.S. Thanks to Deadlock on Climate Bill


http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/16/alternative-energy-investments-fizzle-in-u-s-thanks-to-deadlock-on-climate-bill/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

rjv
08-16-2010, 03:33 PM
wind and solar are way too expensive for the energy they yield and of course, fusion is not cheap either (i mean, you are basically constructing a star) but it sure would produce a lot more energy.

boutons_deux
08-16-2010, 03:44 PM
fusion would be great, give it another 50 years.

if the total cost of coal and oil and gas were included, renewable aren't that much more expensive. but coal/oil/gas corps own Congress so America Is Fucked.

boutons_deux
08-16-2010, 03:54 PM
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20013607-1.html

Drachen
08-16-2010, 04:09 PM
I don't have a problem with more nuclear as long as it is alongside investments in renewables as well as the allowing of reprocessing spent fuel.

Wild Cobra
08-16-2010, 10:20 PM
fission for now. fusion for the future.
I agree.

I was hopeful we would already see a future for fusion. It still seems to be beyond our capability.

SnakeBoy
08-16-2010, 10:48 PM
btw, the asshole Repugs continue to obstruct any progress in the energy sector:


Whew! You saved it till the end. I was getting worried you weren't going to find a way to fit "repugs" into your post.

SnakeBoy
08-16-2010, 10:58 PM
It still seems to be beyond our capability.

And may be 50,100,150...years from now. There's a tendency, particularly on the anti-nuclear side, to assume that the passage of time will guarantee progress on fusion or some other designated "green" technology which is not necessarily true. Yet when it comes to nuclear energy the same people will treat any and all issues as insurmountable.

boutons_deux
08-16-2010, 11:09 PM
"I was getting worried"

Don't you ever doubt The Great Boutons again.

RandomGuy
08-17-2010, 03:47 PM
...

—Nuclear power in the U.S. has grown steadily more efficient and cheaper. Plants now operate at 90 percent of peak capacity (up from about 50 percent a few decades ago) compared with 73 percent for coal, 29 percent for hydroelectric, 16 to 38 percent for natural gas, 27 percent for wind and 19 percent for solar. In 2005 nuclear power was cheaper per kilowatt than any alternative.
...
—The footprint of nuclear power is much smaller than that of solar and wind. A 1,000-megawatt nuclear plant like Indian Point requires less than two square kilometers of land. Comparable solar and wind plants would require, respectively, 130 and 500 square kilometers of land, and they cannot produce a steady supply of power, as nuclear plants do.

I've always had a knee-jerk distrust of nuclear advocates, just as I have of right-wing Congressmen, psychiatric-drug shills and string theorists. But I trust Cravens and the experts she interviewed—including physicists, engineers and epidemiologists—over many years of reporting. If you're agonizing over whether to support nuclear energy, read Cravens's book and see if you find it as persuasive as I do. I also welcome (and expect) challenges to the assertions above.

Solar thermal can quite easily produce a steady supply of power, 24/7

Upgrades to the power grid, which need to be done anyways, will also mitigate the variability of solar/wind.

I would fully challenge her assessment of the cost involved with nukes, as likely being incomplete in some manner.

Nukes are cheap to operate, but VERY expensive to build, and in that, they are similar to renewables. My guess is that she is comparing the current operating costs of a nuke plant with installation costs of other forms of electricity. Apples and oranges.

My problem with nukes, that has never been adequately addressed by any advocate:

Waste disposal.
--Don't give me the "if only they got yucca mountain up and running" schtick. "if only" does not provide electricity, nor does it mean you can put nasty nuclear waste there. Solve this to some reasonable degree. Otherwise it is one aspect of nuclear that makes it impractical.

NIMBY
--Nukes also face MASSIVE overruns by lawsuits and construction delays. That never really makes it into the cost projections by advocates, but is a real consideration. This is another thing that makes nuclear power impractical in my mind for a large % of US power generation.

Security
--20 idiots with assault rifles, truck bombs, and who aren't afraid to die might not be able to breach the average nuclear power plant, but if you ramp up waste/fuel shipments, you exponentially increase your vulnerability to dirty bombs, and worse made from the materials.

I am not against nukes per se, I just don't see it as practical to do. I have a strong suspicion that ramping up US nuclear generating capacity would cost far more than anyone thinks.

In San Antonio, we have had direct experience, where the local utility that operates nukes actively hid the cost overruns from the public and their customers. I can provide a link if anybody wishes.

All in all, I am pretty sure that we will build a new nuke here and there. I dont' mind that.

But I don't see it as a a panacea. To really go nuclear would be a waste of money, IMO, especially when we have alternatives without the rather nasty impracticalities.

RandomGuy
08-17-2010, 03:51 PM
That article cherry-picks with great skill, and fails to address obvious issues.

"1,000 Americans have died in dam collapses in the past 100 years."

Are those all hydro dams? are ALL type of dams,like flood control dams?

Whose capital is going to finance nuclear power at $15B per site?

Who is going to finance the decommissioning?

Who is going to pay the insurance for construction and operation? Today, the private insurance payouts are capped at $11B, then then US taxpayer is on the hook for claims over $11B.

"nuclear power was cheaper per kilowatt than any alternative"

bullshit. That's like saying gasoline cost $3/gal when the real cost is like $15/gal.

does that "cheaper" include

total life-cycle costs like mining/refining fuel,

decommissioning nuclear plant,

storing nuclear waste?

I don't know enough to calculate, but I bet shitcanning or upgrading all the coal plants to be free of carbon and thermal emissions would be cheaper than going nuclear. Of course, I'm aware that the unaccounted for cost of toxic coal ash (which the coal industry has bribed the EPA not to classify as toxic) and the horrible destruction of mountaintop and strip mining are not included in the lying "price" of coal.

I'd much rather see $Ts invested in wind, ocean current, solar thermal and voltaic than in nuclear.

btw, the asshole Repugs continue to obstruct any progress in the energy sector:

Alternative Energy Investments Fizzle in U.S. Thanks to Deadlock on Climate Bill


http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/16/alternative-energy-investments-fizzle-in-u-s-thanks-to-deadlock-on-climate-bill/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

Good points all. would concur.

RandomGuy
08-18-2010, 09:04 AM
I am not a knee-jerk anti-nuke person.

If anyone can address my concerns, I would be all for it.

If you can keep the fuel/waste shipments to a minimum, to minimize security/accident risks, great.

Find a good place to put the waste that isn't subject to endless lawsuits (this is the biggest drawback at the moment, NIMBY)

Overcome NIMBY somehow. It will likely always be easier to site renewables than nukes. I don't see this as being an easy one to solve, but it MUST be addressed otherwise you are looking at a LOT of additional costs.

HONEST AND INDEPENDENT COST ANALYSIS. This is what I want most of all, as it is the most relevant.

Otherwise, I think the long term balance tilts towards renewables.