Coat riding Superstars

[Ace]

Obviously it takes a great supporting cast to win championships but which superstar would you say got more credit than deserved due to coat riding? I say Kobe, due to the mere fact he had both the most dominate big men in Shaq and a one of the most talented 7fters in Pau to win. The reason I
say Kobe because he is often compared to Jordan because of championships won. When the obvious fact is he needed tons of help to get where he is and fact is Shaq is the reason he has more the half the championships won is because of Shaq.

[Venti Quattro]

1/10

[HarlemHeat37]

Obviously it takes a great supporting cast to win championships but which superstar would you say got more credit than deserved due to coat riding? I say Kobe, due to the mere fact he had both the most dominate big men in Shaq and a one of the most talented 7fters in Pau to win. The reason I
say Kobe because he is often compared to Jordan because of championships won. When the obvious fact is he needed tons of help to get where he is and fact is Shaq is the reason he has more the half the championships won is because of Shaq.

I never really looked at it this way, TBH..

When I think about it, it appears to be true..Kobe's rings are never judged thoroughly, they're just used as an individual number to elevate his greatness..everybody has already forgotten about his pathetic performance during the Finals, Gasol received very little credit throughout the playoffs, and he continues to benefit from revisionist history in regards to the Shaq era..

Thankfully, this will all come to an end when Lebron and DWade take over..

[Ace]

I never really looked at it this way, TBH..

When I think about it, it appears to be true..Kobe's rings are never judged thoroughly, they're just used as an individual number to elevate his greatness..everybody has already forgotten about his pathetic performance during the Finals, Gasol received very little credit throughout the playoffs, and he continues to benefit from revisionist history in regards to the Shaq era..

Thankfully, this will all come to an end when Lebron and DWade take over..

They will go down as the greatest wing combo while Kobe while go as good but not quite Jordan.

[Halberto]

Even though he only has one, KG is one.


.... and of course Robert Horry.

[Koolaid_Man]

Obviously it takes a great supporting cast to win championships but which superstar would you say got more credit than deserved due to coat riding? I say Kobe, due to the mere fact he had both the most dominate big men in Shaq and a one of the most talented 7fters in Pau to win. The reason I say Kobe because he is often compared to Jordan because of championships won. When the obvious fact is he needed tons of help to get where he is and fact is Shaq is the reason he has more the half the championships won is because of Shaq.


Lets focus on 09 and 2010. Kobe won the last 2..now tell me again how many does Miami have ...ohh yeah that's right...1

Now matter how u slice Kobe>Heat Franchise.

[Ace]

Lets focus on 09 and 2010. Kobe won the last 2..now tell me again how many does Miami have ...ohh yeah that's right...1

Now matter how u slice Kobe>Heat Franchise.

Doesn't change the fact. Heat haven't began yet their legacy as the greatest team ever. Its hard to take in but just sit back in watch the show as the Lakers are put to rest.

[21_Blessings]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/218/481/elbow_display_image.jpg?1273110756

[SouthTexasRancher]

This thread is already at the 'epic FAILURE' stage. Besides, :ttiwwp:

[Nathan89]

Obviously it takes a great supporting cast to win championships but which superstar would you say got more credit than deserved due to coat riding? I say Kobe, due to the mere fact he had both the most dominate big men in Shaq and a one of the most talented 7fters in Pau to win. The reason I
say Kobe because he is often compared to Jordan because of championships won. When the obvious fact is he needed tons of help to get where he is and fact is Shaq is the reason he has more the half the championships won is because of Shaq.

I have always looked at it this way. Shaq was the best big in the game and gasol is the second best in the game(best offensively). He has all this talent and barely wins. Not to mention the many times the officials have gave the lakers the series. It is unbelievable how badly they have cheated for the lakers.

[Unholy Turkey]

lol

[picc84]

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAHE097_8x10.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/0%20Players/Lebron%20James/queenlebronjamesandDwyaneWade.gif

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6854/ql6uh.gif

[Purch]

Agenda threads. Classic.

Keep Classy heat fans

[Ace]

Last I checked Wade carried Shaq to that title. Not like Kobe. Lebron hasn't won a championship so I'm not sure why he is being mentioned. Lakers fans insecurity

[JamStone]

Shaquille O'Neal has now become the poster child for coatriding, hopping on superstar to superstar on his quest to one-up Duncan and now to chase down Kobe.

I know the Kobe hate is great on this site but stuff like this gets comical. Coatriding to me infers the player actively goes out to ride another player's coattails. While Kobe wanted to be a Laker, he didn't go out and choose to play for the Lakers. Jerry West traded for him before he played a game in the NBA. Kobe didn't join a team with Shaq on it. They arrived in the same summer. It's not like Karl Malone and Gary Payton in 2003-04. It's not like KG to Boston in 2007. It's not like LeBron this summer.

As for the notion that Kobe's riding Pau Gasol's coattails, come on now. If that's the case, then Duncan road Ginobili's coattails in 2005 and Tony Parker's coattails in 2007. It really has gotten comical.

[Ace]

Shaquille O'Neal has now become the poster child for coatriding, hopping on superstar to superstar on his quest to one-up Duncan and now to chase down Kobe.

I know the Kobe hate is great on this site but stuff like this gets comical. Coatriding to me infers the player actively goes out to ride another player's coattails. While Kobe wanted to be a Laker, he didn't go out and choose to play for the Lakers. Jerry West traded for him before he played a game in the NBA. Kobe didn't join a team with Shaq on it. They arrived in the same summer. It's not like Karl Malone and Gary Payton in 2003-04. It's not like KG to Boston in 2007. It's not like LeBron this summer.

As for the notion that Kobe's riding Pau Gasol's coattails, come on now. If that's the case, then Duncan road Ginobili's coattails in 2005 and Tony Parker's coattails in 2007. It really has gotten comical.
Jamstone for as smart as you are. Your opinion doesn't count, as your one the biggest Kobe homers on the site. As far as Shaq, yes as of late he has become a coat rider but if you saw his Laker days. Then you know his dominance is behind the success of that team.

[JamStone]

Jamstone for as smart as you are. Your opinion doesn't count, as your one the biggest Kobe homers on the site. As far as Shaq, yes as of late he has become a coat rider but if you saw his Laker days. Then you know his dominance is behind the success of that team.

Being a "Kobe homer" makes my opinion as valid as yours with you being an obvious "Kobe hater."

But ok.

[Cry Havoc]

Being a "Kobe homer" makes my opinion as valid as yours with you being an obvious "Kobe hater."

But ok.

Don't mind him. Ace is a Laker fan posing as a Heat fan. Pretty damn obvious.

[DAF86]

Even though he only has one, KG is one.


.... and of course Robert Horry.

KG is the number one reason for that Celtics' championship, so no he doesn't belong in the list.

And Horry isn't a superstar.

[SenorSpur]

Shaq is probably THE biggest, hypocritical, coatrider of all, because when he was a young player, he derided many veterans, specifcally Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, for hanging around too long. At the time, he claimed that he would never stoop to such levels. Yeah right.

[DAF86]

HarlemHeat is punching himself for not coming up with this thread's idea first.

[JamStone]

Don't mind him. Ace is a Laker fan posing as a Heat fan. Pretty damn obvious.

Probably true, but I can be pretty oblivious when it comes to recognizing that kind of shit, so I generally respond to all trolls the same way, with serious responses even when it's obvious trolling. I believe there are some posters who are extreme homers who say outrageous shit and actually believe it, and that's why I treat them the same for the most part. I mean, I actually believe there are people who believe the things he says. But you're probably right and I do fall into the trap a lot. Lol shrugs...

[TheMACHINE]

obvious troll...40 post and calls Jamstone the biggest Kobe Homer in this site. Just another Heat Username (probably really a Spurs fan) trying to find ways to diss the Lakers.

[Medvedenko]

obvious troll...40 post and calls Jamstone the biggest Kobe Homer in this site. Just another Heat Username (probably really a Spurs fan) trying to find ways to diss the Lakers.

This is such troll bait....why fall for it.

[JamStone]

I fall for troll bait all the time, even if I know it's trolling.

But, in turn, I've gotten posters like Allanon and even 21_Blessings to respond with non-troll (or at least partially non-troll) posts. I like to see if there's any substance behind the troll work.

[BlackSwordsMan]

nothing wrong with kobe and lebron riding the coattails of their team mates all that matters in the end is the ring

[DAF86]

I only troll with substance, tbh.

[Ace]

nothing wrong with kobe and lebron riding the coattails of their team mates all that matters in the end is the ring
Not when Laker fans are trying to make a case for Kobe as GOAT. In the end Kobe will be known as a talented player who won a few championships but not great.

[TheMACHINE]

Not when Laker fans are trying to make a case for Kobe as GOAT. In the end Kobe will be known as a talented player who won a few championships but not great.

you're a dumbass...most lakers fans think Jordan is GOAT. Haters like you THINK lakers fans say that cuz your obsessed with Kobe.

[JamStone]

As much of a Kobe apologist as I am, in all seriousness, if Kobe retired today I don't think he's a top 10 player all time. I think he's somewhere around 10-15 among the all time greats. Honestly.

[Mike-in-brazil]

yo sup with all these self doubt ass threads?? in this forum is it to assist with folks feelings and assurance of their own team.!!! talk basketball..

lets see here
Fuck Lebron...

Kobe is just ok not great I'm mean think about he really didnt do anything he was bailed out cause championships are won by one player not the team shiiiittt i know what I'm talking about u haters!!

certain teams are lucky not good( the ones i hate though)

fuck the heat, but i hope they beat the lakers...

don't say anything bad about the spurs or teams i like or you don't know basketball..


the fans are all dumb that's why I hate the city

who da hell started a post wondering who is gay?
that's some down low gay shit it's self..any man who ponders if others are gay.....
....is gay !!!

man I'm sorry but i guess the season needs to start asap huh!!
whats up with some B-ball talk ...predictions and why ...best defense.. etc....
that's what made me join here guess i saw like two rare post here and assumed the best LOL
or am i giving folks on here to much credit ? i like the funny shit and opinion post, just a trip when posters try and make opinion facts

[redzero]

you're a dumbass...most lakers fans think Jordan is GOAT. Haters like you THINK lakers fans say that cuz your obsessed with Kobe.

If I posted polls on a few Lakers forums asking who is better between Kobe and MJ, who do you think would win the polls?

[Cry Havoc]

If I posted polls on a few Lakers forums asking who is better between Kobe and MJ, who do you think would win the polls?

:lol Fans at Lakersgrounds would ask why Jordan even deserves to be compared to Kobe. :lol

[Mike-in-brazil]

few Lakers forumswhats good redzero!?!?

that's age and online related we never know who's clicking to get an honest count one needs to speak with fans of all ages /backgrounds..basically be in the city or around true honest basketball fans that's what Machine was trying to say
yes most lakers fans do feel MJ is better/yet like kobe more as they should
also keep this in mind not everyone in L.A likes the Lakers LOL say about 40-50% the rest don't give a shit or don't care

[CavsSuperFan]

You have to put Jordan on this list…He never won a ring before Phil Jackson took over…

[HarlemHeat37]

yo sup with all these self doubt ass threads?? in this forum is it to assist with folks feelings and assurance of their own team.!!! talk basketball..

lets see here
Fuck Lebron...

Kobe is just ok not great I'm mean think about he really didnt do anything he was bailed out cause championships are won by one player not the team shiiiittt i know what I'm talking about u haters!!

certain teams are lucky not good( the ones i hate though)

fuck the heat, but i hope they beat the lakers...

don't say anything bad about the spurs or teams i like or you don't know basketball..


the fans are all dumb that's why I hate the city

who da hell started a post wondering who is gay?
that's some down low gay shit it's self..any man who ponders if others are gay.....
....is gay !!!

man I'm sorry but i guess the season needs to start asap huh!!
whats up with some B-ball talk ...predictions and why ...best defense.. etc....
that's what made me join here guess i saw like two rare post here and assumed the best LOL
or am i giving folks on here to much credit ? i like the funny shit and opinion post, just a trip when posters try and make opinion facts

Ugh, make it stop..somebody please make it stop..

[TD 21]

Shaquille O'Neal has now become the poster child for coatriding, hopping on superstar to superstar on his quest to one-up Duncan and now to chase down Kobe.

I know the Kobe hate is great on this site but stuff like this gets comical. Coatriding to me infers the player actively goes out to ride another player's coattails. While Kobe wanted to be a Laker, he didn't go out and choose to play for the Lakers. Jerry West traded for him before he played a game in the NBA. Kobe didn't join a team with Shaq on it. They arrived in the same summer. It's not like Karl Malone and Gary Payton in 2003-04. It's not like KG to Boston in 2007. It's not like LeBron this summer.

As for the notion that Kobe's riding Pau Gasol's coattails, come on now. If that's the case, then Duncan road Ginobili's coattails in 2005 and Tony Parker's coattails in 2007. It really has gotten comical.

The difference was, Duncan was still far and away the best overall player on the Spurs in '05 and '07, meanwhile O'Neal was the undisputed best player on the Lakers during their three peat. Not even the most ardent Bryant supporters claim otherwise. So that's a terrible comparison.

And Harlem, how did "Gasol receive very little credit throughout the playoffs"? The media has fallen head over heels with him. They slobber over his every move. He could make the simplest of plays and Breen would go "oh ho, pretty move by Gasol". And how many times did they tell us how skilled he was? As if we didn't get it or had forgotten.

[TheManFromAcme]

Not when Laker fans are trying to make a case for Kobe as GOAT. In the end Kobe will be known as a talented player who won a few championships but not great.


Please be around next June.......

[JamStone]

The difference was, Duncan was still far and away the best overall player on the Spurs in '05 and '07, meanwhile O'Neal was the undisputed best player on the Lakers during their three peat. Not even the most ardent Bryant supporters claim otherwise. So that's a terrible comparison.

Not in the 2005 and 2007 NBA Finals. Critically valuable to their success? Yes. Not far and away the best overall player. And despite winning the 2005 Finals MVP, Ginobili was the best player for the Spurs that series, and Robert Horry saved that series for the Spurs.

And if you read what I wrote, it's to counter the notion that Kobe has ridden Pau Gasol's coattails. Do you believe that? If you do, then Duncan did much the same in 2005 and 2007. That's the point. Kobe has been the undisputed best player on the 2009 and 2010 Lakers championship teams. To suggest he's been riding Pau's coattails is pretty ridiculous. Has Pau been indispensable to their championship success? Yes. Has Kobe been riding his coattails? Umm, that's why I made the comment if he has, then so did Duncan in 2005 and 2007.

[TheMACHINE]

If I posted polls on a few Lakers forums asking who is better between Kobe and MJ, who do you think would win the polls?

so tell "Ace" to posts his arguement on Lakersground then.

[HarlemHeat37]

It would probably take you too long to make sense of his argument anyways..

[scanry]

It would probably take you too long to make sense of his argument anyways..

Harlem punking the Machine as usual...

I'll say this, John Salley was the GOAT of riding coat tales off of superstars. But, Robert Horry and Steve Kerr are right there behind him.

[cobbler]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/218/481/elbow_display_image.jpg?1273110756

What ever happend with that bum elbow? I just love how the haters bashed Kobe all season for supposedly exaggerating and blaming his injuries with no mention of Bron doing the very same exact thing. And low and behold, Kobe has off season surgery to repair his faked injury and Bron? Ohhh his inury dissapeared magically. But that's the haters for you... full of shit TBH...

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq115/cobblerphoto/coattailslbj.jpg

[HarlemHeat37]

Lebron did have an injury, it was proven through an MRI..

[cobbler]

Jamstone for as smart as you are. Your opinion doesn't count, as your one the biggest Kobe homers on the site. As far as Shaq, yes as of late he has become a coat rider but if you saw his Laker days. Then you know his dominance is behind the success of that team.

And with similar logic one could say your opinion doesn't count either because your hatred obviously clouds your vision.

The Lakers dont win squat without Shaq or Kobe durung those years. And neither wins squat without PJ at the helm and a handful of players that stepped up big and got them big wins. To suggest that Kobe rode Shaqs coattails is pure rubbish.

[cobbler]

Lebron did have an injury, it was proven through an MRI..

yeah... and elbow strain and bruise. :lol

You really are a tool... TBH...

I haven't posted much lately as I have been very busy at work. It's been nothing but a pleasure to read through the threads from time to time to see you getting abused day after day.

[ezau]

Obviously it takes a great supporting cast to win championships but which superstar would you say got more credit than deserved due to coat riding? I say Kobe, due to the mere fact he had both the most dominate big men in Shaq and a one of the most talented 7fters in Pau to win. The reason I say Kobe because he is often compared to Jordan because of championships won. When the obvious fact is he needed tons of help to get where he is and fact is Shaq is the reason he has more the half the championships won is because of Shaq.

Agree with this, Kobe benefited a lot from above-average to great big men such as Shaq and Gasol. The only people who compare Kobe to Jordan are Laker fans. It still haunts them that the greatest player to play the game didn't wear purple and gold. The sad part is that try as they may, Kobe will never even come close to the accomplishments Jordan achieved. Laker fans will always say that Kobe has five rings. So what? Horry had seven and he was as much of a coat-riding dick as Kobe is. :toast

[cobbler]

Agree with this, Kobe benefited a lot from above-average to great big men such as Shaq and Gasol. The only people who compare Kobe to Jordan are Laker fans. It still haunts them that the greatest player to play the game didn't wear purple and gold. The sad part is that try as they may, Kobe will never even come close to the accomplishments Jordan achieved. Laker fans will always say that Kobe has five rings. So what? Horry had seven and he was as much of a coat-riding dick as Kobe is. :toast

:lol:lol:lol

[ezau]

As much of a Kobe apologist as I am, in all seriousness, if Kobe retired today I don't think he's a top 10 player all time. I think he's somewhere around 10-15 among the all time greats. Honestly.

That's more like it Jammie:toast

[ezau]

:lol:lol:lol
:lol:lol:lol

[Andrew Bynum]

It would probably take you too long to make sense of his argument anyways..

Quite stale.

[HarlemHeat37]

yeah... and elbow strain and bruise. :lol

You really are a tool... TBH...

I haven't posted much lately as I have been very busy at work. It's been nothing but a pleasure to read through the threads from time to time to see you getting abused day after day.

:lol When exactly did this "getting abused" happen?..it's not possible, tbh..

[Ace]

Think they're jealous of Harlem's medal tbh...

[cobbler]

:lol When exactly did this "getting abused" happen?..it's not possible, tbh..

Simply do a search on your name... and pull up the threads. It's not difficult. You are owned in a vast majority of them. Your OBSESSION makes you look the fool. You toss out your circular logic, obtuse arguments, hypocritical comments, and veiled jabs and more often than not just dissapear never to return to said thread when owned. It's who you are! It's ok though... You have internet forum medal! :toast

Edit: And if you really need an example... simply revisit your own thread where you were owned by a user who simply created a screename based on yours and had not posted a single comment. My god... that has to go down as the all time ownage in the internet era. That or the biggest case of insecurity. :lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Show me some, please..there's a reason I have a medal..

As for your example, that troll actually did try to make threads and posts, so my objective was successful..I don't know how that would be an "all time ownage" anyways..

[HarlemHeat37]

- I wasn't going to make that account..
- The nickname is lame, as others have agreed..there are a lot better nicknames you could have came up with me for me if you had any creativity..
- You tried to take credit for making the account, when it wasn't even you:lol..
- I was right, I ended the troll before it began..
- I already admitted to being trolled when I made the thread..

[HarlemHeat37]

- I know who made it too, he already told me his intentions with the troll..

- I discovered it by accident, as I've already said..

[cobbler]

Gasol received very little credit throughout the playoffs

I'll have to assume you didn't watch the games then because I'd say Pau was one of the top few players in the league that the announcers, opposing players and coaches, and teammates talked aboutin terms of big men and their importance to their respective teams. There wasnt a single game where he wasnt talked about as being one of the top big men if not THE #1 big playing the game today. There were discussions ad nauseum about his skill set and how hes toughened up. Your boy Kobe himself said minutes after winning the title on national television that they couldnt have done it without the Spainard.

But wait... all those realities don't fuel your obsession. Nevermind!

[Darrin]

Lakers fans are going to hate me for this, but a number-one overall power forward that can't get more than seven a game in a season, averaged 5 for his career? A player not expected to score consistently? He retired at 34? He went nowhere fast after Magic retired.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2986/566140-james_worthy_large.jpg

[Killakobe81]

You may have a point on the rebounds ONLY.
I saw Worthy shit on the pistons in 88 and 89 ...even Rodman could not guard him and this when rodman played defense more than rebounded.
He just didnt have any help in 89 because Magic and Scott got hurt.
No excuses, Pistons were better but anyone that say Worthy couldnt ball without Magic watch the finals in 89 he was are only weapon ...

also, it was worthy's knees that limited him even more than losing Magic. Also he was a SF not a PF for us ...Rambis and Green played PF

[cobbler]

Lakers fans are going to hate me for this, but a power forward that can't get more than seven a game in a season, averaged 5 for his career? A player not expected to score consistently? He went nowhere fast after Magic retired.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2986/566140-james_worthy_large.jpg

I think thats a tad unfair. Magic gone, Kareem gone. Lakers in turmoil. Worthy was a solid contributor to the championships. Clearly not coattail accomplishments.

7× All-Star (1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992)
1× NBA Finals MVP (1988)
2× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1990–1991)
1983 NBA All-Rookie Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
1× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
1× NCAA Basketball Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1982)

His roll was to be the wing on the break. He wasn't there to rebound. That was Kareem and Greens job. James was nearing halfcourt as the rebounds were being grabbed.

[Darrin]

You may havea point but I saw Worthy shit on the pistons in 88 and 89 ...
he just didnt have any help in 89 because Magic and Scott got hurt.
No excuses, Pistons were better but anyone that say Worthy couldnt ball without Magic watch the finals in 89 he was are only weapon ...

also, it was worthy's knees that limited him even more than losng Magic. Also he was a SF not a PF for us ...Rambis and Green played PF

Yeah, I just watched that 40-point thrashing in the game-four blowout. For the first three quarters, he was sick. That runner around Laimbeer was unlike anything I have seen. But watching him in game one, he made poor shot after poor shot, he didn't move the basketball or really more without it. The Pistons shit on them in game one. Plus, game 2 is the foul shot that would've tied the game.

Imagine if Lebron had cracked like that in Game 2? Or Jordan?

If I had to choose between Green or Worthy when I have two superstars already, I take Green. The man had a motor and was tough inside.

[cobbler]

You may have a point on the rebounds ONLY.
I saw Worthy shit on the pistons in 88 and 89 ...even Rodman could not guard him and this when rodman played defense more than rebounded.
He just didnt have any help in 89 because Magic and Scott got hurt.
No excuses, Pistons were better but anyone that say Worthy couldnt ball without Magic watch the finals in 89 he was are only weapon ...

also, it was worthy's knees that limited him even more than losing Magic. Also he was a SF not a PF for us ...Rambis and Green played PF

One of my fondest Laker memories. The Pistons huddle... the camara pans in... and Daly walks into the huddle and yells... "Worthy Worthy Worthy" and walks away.

[Darrin]

You may have a point on the rebounds ONLY.
I saw Worthy shit on the pistons in 88 and 89 ...even Rodman could not guard him and this when rodman played defense more than rebounded.
He just didnt have any help in 89 because Magic and Scott got hurt.
No excuses, Pistons were better but anyone that say Worthy couldnt ball without Magic watch the finals in 89 he was are only weapon ...

also, it was worthy's knees that limited him even more than losing Magic. Also he was a SF not a PF for us ...Rambis and Green played PF

I just did. He had one good game, and he wasn't that lively when the Lakers had a chance to win the series. I'm serious. I watched the whole series and just finished game 4 this morning. If I'm to draw conclusions from that small sample, then Tony Campbell was just as good as Worthy.

BTW, Rodman was hurt that series. He had a bad back.

[rmt]

And despite winning the 2005 Finals MVP, Ginobili was the best player for the Spurs that series
I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Duncan 20.5 pts 14.1 reb 2.1 asst 2.14 blk
Ginobili 18.5 pts 5.8 reb 4.0 asst 1.28 stl

IMO, Duncan was the best player for the Spurs especially considering his greater impact on the defensive end and that some of Manu's points were from (forced) free throws at the end of games.

And in the 3rd quarter of game 7, Duncan made some big shots, got the Detroit frontline in foul trouble, forcing double teams and opening up the shooters. I loved Duncan's work in the paint in 2005 both offensively and defensively - 14+ rebounds against x2 Wallace and McDyess over a 7 game series.

http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

[Nathan89]

Yep, duncan was better.

[BadOdor]

how come you didn't post the fg% of each?

[scanry]

Tim Duncan

------------MP-- PTS-- FG---FGA--- FG%--TRB--AST-- STL---BLK
Game 1--- 41--- 24--- 10--- 22-- 0.455--- 17---- 2---- 0----- 2
Game 2--- 37--- 18 --- 5---- 10-- 0.500--- 11---- 1----- 0----- 4
Game 3--- 38--- 14 --- 5---- 15-- 0.333--- 10---- 4----- 3----- 1
Game 4--- 39--- 16 --- 5---- 17-- 0.294--- 16---- 2----- 0----- 3
Game 5--- 48--- 26 --- 11--- 24-- 0.458--- 19---- 2----- 0----- 2
Game 6--- 40--- 21 --- 8---- 14-- 0.571--- 15---- 1----- 0----- 1
Game 7--- 42--- 25 --- 10--- 27-- 0.370--- 11---- 3----- 0----- 2
AVG-------41---20.6---7.7- 18.4--0.426--14.2- 2.1- 0.43---2.14


Manu Ginobili

------------MP-- PTS-- FG---FGA--- FG%--TRB--AST-- STL---BLK
Game 1--- 39--- 26 ---10--- 16-- 0.625--- 9---- 2------ 1------0
Game 2--- 32--- 27 ----6----- 8-- 0.750---- 3---- 7------ 3----- 0
Game 3--- 29--- 7 ----- 2----- 6-- 0.333---- 4---- 0------ 0----- 0
Game 4--- 32--- 12 --- 4----- 9-- 0.444---- 4---- 3------ 1----- 1
Game 5--- 44--- 14 --- 5---- 16-- 0.313---- 6---- 9----- 1------ 0
Game 6--- 41--- 21 --- 7---- 17-- 0.412--- 10---- 3----- 2----- 0
Game 7--- 35--- 23 --- 8---- 13-- 0.615---- 5---- 4----- 1------ 0
AVG-------361--18.6--6.0--12.1--0.498--5.86- 4.0- 1.28---0.14

[scanry]

Duncan averaged 21/14/2/2 and Manu averaged 19/6/4/1.3. There wasn't much into it. The thing that sealed it for Tim was his 3rd quarter performance. I don't Spurs had any chance of beating the Pistons after the 5 min mark of the 3rd Q. Tim made some huge shots and he literally broke the Pistons defense in the 4th. Manu and Horry were getting some wide open shots because of Tim getting doubled in the 4th..

[JamStone]

Some of you really don't remember how that series went down, and really don't remember how game 7 went down.

Duncan was absolutely still the anchor of that Spurs team and generally speaking was still the best player on that team. But Manu was the MVP of that series. Manu did have a couple of bad games in the middle of the series when the Pistons had a couple of their wins. But Manu's imprint was all over the series. Going back and looking at the stats tells you part of the story, not the entire story. Manu averaged almost 5 minutes fewer than Duncan. That skews the numbers a little bit. Manu's couple of bad games in Detroit as well skew the numbers. It was strange that rmt selectively left out the shooting percentages. Tim Duncan a 6'11 power forward/center who throughout his career was around a 50% shooter or better shooting 42% from the field while Manu a perimeter player who is roughly a 45% shooter his entire career shooting 49% from the field.

Moreover, Manu was the one who was closing out the games. Look at game 7 and how it played out. Manu took over. Duncan went 2-for-5 and had three turnovers in the fourth. You guys try to argue Duncan took over the game in the second half of that third quarter and neglect to mention that Larry Brown gift-wrapped the series to Duncan and the Spurs when McDyess picked up his I believe 4th foul and subbed in Lindsey Hunter into the game, moving Tayshaun Prince to the PF spot. Genius right? Surprised Duncan went off? Nope. And then you guys neglect to mention how what Duncan did got the game tied, he didn't really do much in the fourth quarter at all while watching Manu take over the game and the series on offense and watch Bruce Bowen shut down both Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups.

And also the idea that Manu got open looks because Duncan was double teamed is horseshit. For probably about 95%+ of the series, the Pistons played Duncan straight up, single man-to-man coverage by any of the three Ben, Rasheed, or McDyess with that horrible joke of a small ball line-up and Prince covering him on a couple switches in that game 7 third quarter. Moreover, the times the Pistons did double team, they weren't double teaming off of Ginobili. Not sure why any Spurs fan would want to discredit Ginobili to prop up Duncan in that series. Ginobili was putting it on the Pistons. They weren't doubling off of him. Heck, Horry's famous three pointer in game 5 was Rasheed playing off Horry to double GINOBILI for a corner three pointer. That will tell you the Pistons weren't double off of Ginobili in that series, especially after what he did in games 1 and 2.

You guys really don't remember how that series went down. Duncan still put up good numbers aside from field goal shooting. But there is no question in my mind that Manu was the best player for the Spurs in that series. In fact, I don't think it was close. Ginobili won that series for the Spurs. It's a shame he didn't win the 2005 NBA Finals MVP.

[rmt]

Some of you really don't remember how that series went down, and really don't remember how game 7 went down.

Duncan was absolutely still the anchor of that Spurs team and generally speaking was still the best player on that team. But Manu was the MVP of that series. Manu did have a couple of bad games in the middle of the series when the Pistons had a couple of their wins. But Manu's imprint was all over the series. Going back and looking at the stats tells you part of the story, not the entire story. Manu averaged almost 5 minutes fewer than Duncan. That skews the numbers a little bit. Manu's couple of bad games in Detroit as well skew the numbers. It was strange that rmt selectively left out the shooting percentages. Tim Duncan a 6'11 power forward/center who throughout his career was around a 50% shooter or better shooting 42% from the field while Manu a perimeter player who is roughly a 45% shooter his entire career shooting 49% from the field.

Moreover, Manu was the one who was closing out the games. Look at game 7 and how it played out. Manu took over. Duncan went 2-for-5 and had three turnovers in the fourth. You guys try to argue Duncan took over the game in the second half of that third quarter and neglect to mention that Larry Brown gift-wrapped the series to Duncan and the Spurs when McDyess picked up his I believe 4th foul and subbed in Lindsey Hunter into the game, moving Tayshaun Prince to the PF spot. Genius right? Surprised Duncan went off? Nope. And then you guys neglect to mention how what Duncan did got the game tied, he didn't really do much in the fourth quarter at all while watching Manu take over the game and the series on offense and watch Bruce Bowen shut down both Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups.

And also the idea that Manu got open looks because Duncan was double teamed is horseshit. For probably about 95%+ of the series, the Pistons played Duncan straight up, single man-to-man coverage by any of the three Ben, Rasheed, or McDyess with that horrible joke of a small ball line-up and Prince covering him on a couple switches in that game 7 third quarter. Moreover, the times the Pistons did double team, they weren't double teaming off of Ginobili. Not sure why any Spurs fan would want to discredit Ginobili to prop up Duncan in that series. Ginobili was putting it on the Pistons. They weren't doubling off of him. Heck, Horry's famous three pointer in game 5 was Rasheed playing off Horry to double GINOBILI for a corner three pointer. That will tell you the Pistons weren't double off of Ginobili in that series, especially after what he did in games 1 and 2.

You guys really don't remember how that series went down. Duncan still put up good numbers aside from field goal shooting. But there is no question in my mind that Manu was the best player for the Spurs in that series. In fact, I don't think it was close. Ginobili won that series for the Spurs. It's a shame he didn't win the 2005 NBA Finals MVP.
I watched the entire game 7 (not just the last quarter) last night while on the treadmill so it's quite fresh in my memory. If one watches just the last quarter, it would seem as if Manu was the reason why they won that game. The championship DVD shows only the last quarter of the games - not the entire game as the 16-disc champions set does. But it was in the 3rd quarter that Duncan got really aggressive, eventually got the double-teams and found the open shooters. Even Manu at the end of the game on the DVD said so.

I'm not trying to discredit Manu - he had a fantastic 05 run and the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to the Finals or won without him, but IMO, Duncan was the real reason they won game 7. I'm sorry if you don't remember it as such but go to the recap that I linked to and read what the media, Pop, Parker, Wallace and Larry Brown had to say. I think that they all saw it differently from you.

I didn't selectively leave out the shooting percentages as I didn't copy and paste. It was 3 o'clock in morning and I did the averaging myself from the box scores (so that's why my numbers were off - Manu's stls and Duncan's blks were too low in the OP). Soon after someone asked about the % and another poster posted them so I didn't update my post.

[JamStone]

Umm the fourth quarter of game 7 was when the series was decided, not the second half of the third quarter. It was still tied after three quarters. What Duncan did in the third quarter obviously was crucial to get the Spurs back in the game. It didn't decide the game. Manu balled his ass off in the fourth quarter. And you still didn't acknowledge Larry Brown's blunder in the third by replacing McDyess with Lindsey fucking Hunter and going small ball. Rasheed already had 4 fouls. When Dice picked up his 4th, Larry Brown slid Prince over to PF. Hunter, Billups, Rip, Prince, and Ben Wallace, who himself had 3 fouls. Basically, Larry Brown told Ben Wallace not to pick up his fourth in that third quarter. What the fuck was Larry Brown saving his bigs for? It was game 7 of the NBA Finals. That pissed off a lot of Pistons fans. So no big surprise with Duncan playing against Ben Wallace who wasn't trying to pick up a foul and getting a couple of chances in transition and delayed transition where Prince was switched on Duncan that he went completely off. Yes, that's how Duncan went off. He still had a good series, but for most of the series, particularly after game 1 and except for some stretches of the second half in the game 5 overtime game, the Pistons handled Duncan's offense pretty well and for the most part using only single coverage.

As for this imaginary notion that Duncan started to get heavily double teamed and opened things up for his teammates, that's far from reality, especially in that third quarter. The Pistons did try to collectively collapse on Duncan, but it didn't open things up for shooters. Manu was the only other player to score in the second half of the third quarter in game 7. One was a coast-to-coast unassisted lay-up and the other was a lay-up assisted by Robert Horry. Duncan did get a couple assists in the fourth quarter, but Manu had already taken over the quarter by then.

Again, the fourth quarter is where the game and the series and the championship was decided, not the third. That's where Manu shined and where Duncan was merely ok. Duncan had 5 points and 3 turnovers in that fourth quarter.

And I'm sorry, but quotes by players and coaches don't prove much at all. Duncan gets praise. Of course he will. He had already won two Finals MVPs and was the franchise player. That's what happens. Jordan got fellated after his game 6 debacle in 1996. That's just how it goes. Anyone really watching the series knows Ginobili was robbed of Finals MVP. Hell, I was on these boards back in 2005 and a lot, maybe even most, Spurs fans were saying the same thing, that Ginobili deserved Finals MVP. You can quote the players and coached all you want. They can disagree with me all they want. I know what I saw.

Duncan still put up good numbers. Robert Horry saved the Spurs in game 5. And Manu won the championship in game 7. I'm surprised there are Spurs fans that would refuse to admit this. Most Spurs fans at the time knew, realized, and acknowledged this.

[TheMACHINE]

Harlem punking the Machine as usual...



as usual? wtf.

Who the fuck is Scanry anyways?

[TheGreatest23]

Lebron did have an injury, it was proven through an MRI..

Then the Doctor said..."take some advil and it should be better in the morning."

[TheMACHINE]

Then the Doctor said..."take some advil and it should be better in the morning."

thats great that the give slaves Advil

[scanry]

as usual? wtf.

Who the fuck is Scanry anyways?


Harlem's bitch, don't get all testy with me ok!! Harlem is just a forum above if you want him...

[TheMACHINE]

Who the fuck is Scanry anyways?


Harlem's bitch, don't get all testy with me ok!! Harlem is just a forum above if you want him...

Haha....you just called yourself "Harlems Bitch".

[DeadlyDynasty]

David Robinson...especially in 2003

[TheGreatest23]

Haha....you just called yourself "Harlems Bitch".

i thought the same thing when i first read it. :lol

[scanry]

David Robinson...especially in 2003

C'mon who was going to stop Shaq in 2003? Duncan sure as hell didn't have a chance back then.. DRob played some great defense in the WCSF against the Lakers.

[Ace]

Gasol's coattail ripped and he couldn't ride it to another 3 peat like he did Shaq.