Ranking the point guards, 10 through No. 1.

[fevertrees]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Ranking-the-point-guards-10-through-No-1;_ylt=AvFTec0rK5119tX.6L3Ni6.8vLYF?urn=nba-263267

10. Baron Davis(notes), Los Angeles Clippers (last year: 21st)

A jump from 21st to 10th shouldn't really give anyone room for pause. It has less to do with how improved Baron was in 2009-10 (though he was) than how ruddy awful he was in 2008-09. Last season, the man's defense came and went, his shot selection from behind the arc (3.9 attempts per game while shooting just 27.7 percent) was terrible, and he still seemed to coast when the Clippers needed him most. Still, 15.3 points and eight assists and why did I rank him this high, again? Blake Griffin's(notes) in town, Baron, let's get this together.


9. Tony Parker(notes), San Antonio Spurs (last year: third)

This ranking is purely on the hopes that Parker will have a bounce-back year after a terrible 2009-10. Because if he plays the same this season as he did the last? Then there's no real difference between him and Aaron Brooks(notes), save for the part about Aaron Brooks being slightly better. Tony turned 28 last May and dealt with injuries last season, but man was 2009-10 a bad turn for him. Parker has top-five potential on this list, but he has quite a bit of work to do.

8. Devin Harris(notes), New Jersey Nets (last year: sixth)

The hits keep coming with the guys we think (or hope?) will find a way to stop the bleeding. Harris was alternately injured and unenthused last season, playing for a team that threatened to earn the worst record in the history of the NBA. He didn't cut or drive hard, his defense was poor and it was obvious he was just playing out the string. This season, with improved depth and more hands to pass to, Harris has the chance to get it right if he changes his attitude.

7. Russell Westbrook(notes), Oklahoma City Thunder (last year: 17th)

I hesitated putting him this high for a good reason -- Russell is still figuring this game out, and he shot the Thunder out of some games last season. But his defense keeps him in the mix, consistently. Westbrook can defend and contribute in other areas (rebounding, even screen setting) that a litany of other point man just cannot. He averaged 16 points, eight assists and five rebounds last season, and the guy doesn't even turn 22 until mid-November.

6. Chauncey Billups(notes), Denver Nuggets (last year: fourth)

There's a real chance that Chauncey could fall off the face of the earth this season; he turns 34 next month and is on a team that could be in flux. Billups actually posted a career high in points per game last season (19.5), and it's not as if he uses his athleticism to get where he's going. But 34 (for point guards, especially) is 34. This is an optimistic placement, but I believe it also to be an appropriate one.

5. Derrick Rose(notes), Chicago Bulls (last year: 11th)

I take in quite a bit of noise for Bulls fans for pointing out Rose's bad defense, his inability to consistently get to the line and his so-so passing. But I also saw him hit a 3-pointer a few days ago -- it had arc, rotation, follow-through; the whole schmear -- and I can't help but bump the guy up. Especially with a screening-and-finishing partner in Carlos Boozer(notes) waltzing into town.


4. Steve Nash(notes), Phoenix Suns (last year: fifth)

Without Amar'e Stoudemire(notes) in town, Nash could fall, hard. Sure, he won a pretty dodgy (to put it nicely) MVP in 2005-06 with Stoudemire out for almost the entire season, but that was a half-decade ago, and Steve will turn 37 before the All-Star break. Still, it's Steve Nash. The guy was playing nearly as good a brand of basketball last season as we've ever seen from him, and while the Suns might be a bit low on off-pass finishers ... it's Steve Nash.

3. Rajon Rondo(notes), Boston Celtics (last year: eighth)

A big jump for Rajon, who could be incredibly overrated or playing the role of the point guard at a level that my tiny brain just can't understand. I'll split the difference, and hand him the top-five spot. Some Celtics fans were a little upset at the way Rondo let a good group of point men fly past him last season, but that's the way the position works in this era, with no hand checking to help stop these flyweights. Rondo is just 24, he nearly cracked double-figure assists last season, and he led the league in steals as well.

2. Deron Williams(notes), Utah Jazz (last year: second)

Deron had the most consistently brilliant season of any point man last season, though in actuality his scoring average dropped a bit and his turnover rate shot up compared to 2008-09. He still averaged 18.7 points and 10.5 assists with an improved rebound mark (four per game). The 26-year-old will probably take on an increased load this season with Carlos Boozer gone and Al Jefferson(notes) taking a little while to acclimate himself to the Jazz system.


1. Chris Paul(notes), New Orleans Hornets (last year: first) :toast

Paul ran through a frustrating 2009-10, losing significant time to injury and a head coach he liked (Byron Scott) to the firing line. He then topped missing out on the playoffs with an embarrassing trade-demand-that-he-swears-really-wasn't in the offseason. Healthy in 2010-11, with a new coach (Monty Williams) and a new finishing partner on the break in Trevor Ariza(notes), one can only hope that Paul can work his way out of this funk and lead the Hornets back to the playoffs.

Even if New Orleans makes another lottery appearance, it hardly matters. Paul is the cream of this crop.

[Purch]

Nice article. I disagree on One through four though. But it was great following the article through all the Ty Lawson Pictures.

I would have went with

1. D-Will
2. Cp3
3. Nash
4. Rondo


But it's a good list either way.

[Purch]

And I also doubt Devin Harris is better then a healthy Tony Parker.

[HarlemHeat37]

Mediocre list from 30 to 1 IMO, as usual..

George Hill shouldn't be behind Ty Lawson and Jack, horrible..

Ramon Sessions is too high, his career is pretty much 1 season from a few years ago..he hasn't done anything other than that..

Aaron Brooks at 21 is too low, he's definitely better than that..

Calderon at 20 is way too high..he's a mediocre player that hasn't been good in a few seasons..

Lou Williams is too high..

Baron seems a little high..

Devin Harris is too high, he was always overrated, but he's on the decline now..

The rest isn't a huge problem..you could argue Nash over Rondo and Williams over Paul, so whatever..

[Venti Quattro]

1. D-Will
2. Rondo
3. Nash
4. CP3
5. Rose

[Purch]

1. D-Will
2. Rondo
3. Nash
4. CP3
5. Rose


I'm not actually sure if you're serious.

[Ditty]

when healthy:

1.paul
2.nash
3.parker
4.williams
5.rondo

[DPG21920]

No way can you put TP ahead of Williams ^

[Chieflion]

I love how Ty Lawson appears in every picture for 30 to 1. That is the only good thing out of the list.

[leemajors]

No way can you put TP ahead of Williams ^

Agreed

[Purch]

when healthy:

1.paul
2.nash
3.parker
4.williams
5.rondo


Parker above Williams.

That is amazing.

Not to Mention Parker above Rondo or Rose.

[BRHornet45]

sons that is a pretty good list, however the top 5 should be ...

1. Paul
2. Nash
3. Williams
4. Rose
5. Parker (when healthy could be #4 or as high as #3)

[Ditty]

No way can you put TP ahead of Williams ^

this is when they are healthy..tony parker has about the same numbers or better not counting last year over williams..parker when healthy is more of a threat attacking the basket than williams, and jump shots are about even

[Ditty]

Parker above Williams.

That is amazing.

Not to Mention Parker above Rondo or Rose.

no way rose is as good at rose at this point of his career and when rondo gets a jump shit then he may a spot higher but Rondo is very overrated by many

[HarlemHeat37]

this is when they are healthy..tony parker has about the same numbers or better not counting last year over williams..parker when healthy is more of a threat attacking the basket than williams, and jump shots are about even

I love TP, but Williams is much better, even when healthy..

He's the better shooter by a fair margin, he's a better defender and he's a much better passer..

[BRHornet45]

sons the Tony Parker of 2005-2009 was neck and neck with Williams in my opinion ..

- Scoring wise they are relatively even with Parker getting a slight edge

- getting their teammates open/assist Williams blows Parker out of the water

- shooting accuracy they are relatively even. Parker is a much better inside/medium range scorer and Williams is a far better outside scorer.

- Parker is just as good, if not a better rebounding point guard than Williams. Which is hilarious because Parker is shorter than Williams (just like Paul), yet Parker still out rebounds the "giant" Williams.

- defensively they are pretty much even, but Parker is quicker. Williams is terribly overrated on THIS message board whenever it comes to defense.

[Killakobe81]

1. D-Will
2. Rondo
3. Nash
4. CP3
5. Rose

Paul is better than rondo nash too...

[Darrin]

Off of last year alone:
10. Darren Collison
9. Aaron Brooks
8. Chauncey Billups
7. Tony Parker
6. Derrick Rose
5. Russell Westbrook
4. Steve Nash
3. Chris Paul (injury)
2. Rajon Rondo
1. Deron Williams

Unsung hero: Jarrett Jack with Toronto. He averaged 12 and 6 as a starter last season. People still talk about Calderon.

[ezau]

Where is Fisher?

[jacobdrj]

I bet Collison will make a HUGE splash this season. Probably will break the top 10 this season.

If Nash dies of exhaustion, will Goran Dragic get any love?

[jacobdrj]

Off of last year alone:
10. Darren Collison
9. Aaron Brooks
8. Chauncey Billups
7. Tony Parker
6. Derrick Rose
5. Russell Westbrook
4. Steve Nash
3. Chris Paul (injury)
2. Rajon Rondo
1. Deron Williams

Unsung hero: Jarrett Jack with Toronto. He averaged 12 and 6 as a starter last season. People still talk about Calderon.

Damn good list.

[Purch]

I think it's clear at this point that Hornets fans watch next to no Utah games per year.

[redzero]

I think it's clear at this point that Hornets fans watch next to no Utah games per year.

:clap

Awesome excuse. I could use that same logic and turn it around for you.

As I already stated before, Chris Paul is a better shooter, passer, rebounder, and scorer than Deron Williams. He's more efficient and he turns the ball over fewer times.

[Purch]

Lol if you think Paul is better then D-Will then that's your opinion, you're a hornets fan I expect this.

But that really wasn't the point of my post.

[redzero]

And you are a Jazz fan, so stop calling me a Hornets fan as if you are some unbiased observer.

[Purch]

And you are a Jazz fan, so stop calling me a Hornets fan as if you are some unbiased observer.

When did I ever claim to be unbiased. If anyone assumed I was unbiased they must have been too retarded to look at my sig and my avatar.

[redzero]

When did I ever claim to be unbiased. If anyone assumed I was unbiased they must have been too retarded to look at my sig and my avatar.

You don't have to say that you are unbiased, but don't keep bringing up that I'm a Hornets fan like that has anything to do with the discussion at hand. You have done it multiple times.

[Purch]

You don't have to say that you are unbiased, but don't keep bringing up that I'm a Hornets fan like that has anything to do with the discussion at hand. You have done it multiple times.

I said you're a Hornets fan so it's clear you're gonna say Paul is better then Deron. Just like if you ask any Utah fan they'll say Deron is better then Paul.

And I don't understand why you even responded to my original post which had nothing to do with D-Will vs Paul.

[redzero]

True, being a Hornets fan does influence my decision, but I have statistics to back my claims up. Mentioning that I am a Hornets fan is stating the obvious as is pointless.

[Purch]

And I already told you why I believe your statistics are flawed. But my point is my original post had nothing to do with D-Will vs Paul so what are you arguing with me about?

[redzero]

Then what was your point in saying that Hornets fans don't watch Jazz games? Why particularly choose Hornets fans?

[Purch]

Because of the claims made by BDHornets when Comparing D-Will and Parker.

[redzero]

:lmao

BR has a unique take on basketball, so keep that in mind next time.

[Ashy Larry]

Williams is the top point guard in the league. D Will doesn't shy from contact and act like he's at the damn ballet when he gets touched .........

[redzero]

Williams is the top point guard in the league. D Will doesn't shy front contact and doesn't act like he's at the damn ballet when he gets touched .........

Wow, neither of your reasons is worth a damn. What's next? Deron Williams is a more likable person than Chris Paul? Deron has better facial hair? Talk about worthless.

[cheguevara]

If they bring Parker down due to injury, then they need to bring Paul down too.

1. DWill
2. Paul
3. Rondo/Nash

[BRHornet45]

If they bring Parker down due to injury, then they need to bring Paul down too.

1. DWill
2. Paul
3. Rondo/Nash

son the problem with your argument is that Parker was never in the top 2 to begin with. not once in his career.

[Purch]

son the problem with your argument is that Parker was never in the top 2 to begin with. not once in his career.
So?

Wade was top 2 after 2006 after his amazing playoff performance and they brought him down when he was injured.


Keep coming up with complete BS

[Ashy Larry]

Wow, neither of your reasons is worth a damn. What's next? Deron Williams is a more likable person than Chris Paul? Deron has better facial hair? Talk about worthless.

I agree, Paul is worthless and I guarantee you won't be feeling the same about him after he shakes New Orleans. It's just a matter of time.

[redzero]

I agree, Paul is worthless and I guarantee you won't be feeling the same about him after he shakes New Orleans. It's just a matter of time.

How is Paul worthless? You sound stupid.

[Ashy Larry]

You'll see in two years ...... because he won't be worth anything to New Orleans. Then you would have answered your question.

[redzero]

Using that logic, every player who doesn't play on the Hornets is worthless.

You sound stupid.

[TE]

In terms of talent, CP3.


In terms of a team player (loyalty) and dedication to team, D-will.

[TE]

:wakeup

[Purch]

Deron Williams sucks
Chris Paul Sucks
Steve Nash Sucks
Rondo sucks
Rose sucks


Calderon is the best pg in the nba

[Ashy Larry]

Using that logic, every player who doesn't play on the Hornets is worthless.

You sound stupid.

Two years ....... :rollin

[redzero]

Two years ....... :rollin

Chris Paul could be traded right now and you would still sound stupid.

:lol

[TE]

Deron Williams sucks
Chris Paul Sucks
Steve Nash Sucks
Rondo sucks
Rose sucks


Calderon is the best pg in the nba

:lmao

[Purch]

You'll see in two years ...... because he won't be worth anything to New Orleans. Then you would have answered your question.
You shouldn't be allowed to talk.

[Ashy Larry]

You shouldn't be allowed to talk.


I totally agree ... that was my stupid ass little brother typing that shit. Be prepare to have a new member joining Spurstalk :depressed.

With that said, between Williams and Paul, I'll let you pick first and I'll take whomever is left.

[jag]

- defensively they are pretty much even, but Parker is quicker. Williams is terribly overrated on THIS message board whenever it comes to defense.


Parker's defense is pretty underrated, I'm not sure if it's because of his slight frame or because his offense causes that part of his game to be ignored. When Tony struggles defensively it's mostly against PG's who have big bodies and muscle their way into the paint (Billups). Tony has always been solid defensively and has even shown the ability to guard quick SG's out on the perimeter.

I used to buy into Williams being a good defensive player, but if you really watch the guy he sometimes comes off as very uninterested and nonchalant on defense. I think he could be a good defensively but for right now he's seems cool with getting beat off the dribble as long as he can start a fast break the other way.

[Purch]

Parker's defense is pretty underrated, I'm not sure if it's because of his slight frame or because his offense causes that part of his game to be ignored. When Tony struggles defensively it's mostly against PG's who have big bodies and muscle their way into the paint (Billups). Tony has always been solid defensively and has even shown the ability to guard quick SG's out on the perimeter.

I used to buy into Williams being a good defensive player, but if you really watch the guy he sometimes comes off as very uninterested and nonchalant on defense. I think he could be a good defensively but for right now he's seems cool with getting beat off the dribble as long as he can start a fast break the other way.

What games have you been really watching where you see this. Cause I watch nearly 82 Jazz games a year so maybe you can enlighten me to these games where Deron looks uninterested on defense.

[BRHornet45]

What games have you been really watching where you see this. Cause I watch nearly 82 Jazz games a year so maybe you can enlighten me to these games where Deron looks uninterested on defense.

Son first of all where do you watch 82 Jazz games every year? Oh wait ... you're fucking lying through your teeth. Did you know that not even in Utah can you see all 82 games on TV? There are always a handful that are not broadcasted. Also you are a Spurs fan. How in the hell would you be able to watch 82 games every year for another team? Stop lying. Not everyone on here jumps on the very trendy Deron Williams bandwagon. The dude is an above average defender AT BEST.

[Purch]

Son first of all where do you watch 82 Jazz games every year? Oh wait ... you're fucking lying through your teeth. Did you know that not even in Utah can you see all 82 games on TV? There are always a handful that are not broadcasted. Also you are a Spurs fan. How in the hell would you be able to watch 82 games every year for another team? Stop lying. Not everyone on here jumps on the very trendy Deron Williams bandwagon. The dude is an above average defender AT BEST.
I don't ?

I have league pass and a Dvr on my tv.


So already you're talking out your ass.

And when I forget to record or I'm not home I watch the games on Adhte.

Yep that DVR+ Leauge pass + Online stream combo really works great.

And plus you can watch Utah sports by steaming TV online.


How am I spurs fan?:lol

[Purch]

If by being a Spurs fan you mean asking the Mods to change my team bar for the longest time and having nothing happen your right.

[BRHornet45]

I don't ?

I have league pass and a Dvr on my tv.


So already you're talking out your ass.

And when I forget to record or I'm not home I watch the games on Adhte.

Yep that DVR+ Leauge pass + Online stream combo really works great.

And plus you can watch Utah sports by steaming TV online.


How am I spurs fan?:lol

LOL son your're the classic "San Antonio Jazz/Heat/Spurs" fan. Whoever is hot at the moment you then become a fan. Utah recently got new jerseys so now you're on their side. Just a suggestion though, you should at least change your favorite team from the Spurs to Jazz. Who will it be next week?

[BRHornet45]

Son then why did youi sign up as a SPURS FAN from the start? You pick the teams, not the mods. You chose the Spurs as your favorite team, but now you're a Jazz fan!

[Purch]

Son then why did youi sign up as a SPURS FAN from the start? You pick the teams, not the mods. You chose the Spurs as your favorite team, but now you're a Jazz fan!
Actually I didn't know that you could even pick teams when you signed up. Which is why I asked Bali how to change my team to the Jazz.

[Purch]

LOL son your're the classic "San Antonio Jazz/Heat/Spurs" fan. Whoever is hot at the moment you then become a fan. Utah recently got new jerseys so now you're on their side. Just a suggestion though, you should at least change your favorite team from the Spurs to Jazz. Who will it be next week?

And once again you're talking out your ass. So is this what you do when you have no logic you call people out.

O Ok i guess you're not a Hornets fans. You're only on their bandwagon cause they got Ariza.

Why am I wasting my time with your immature bullshit.

And the only reason I signed up for this in the first was to argue with Spurs fans who were insulting my favorite player in the league.

[Purch]

And here goes a triple post. Message JMarkJones whos a member of an Nba forum I've been a part of for years and he can confirm I've been a Jazz fan since before he signed up. Or I could give you my usernames on Real Gm, Insidehoops or Prosportsdaily.

In fact I'm the Jazz mod on nbadimensions :lol

[fevertrees]

Chris Paul is still the best...

[BRHornet45]

And once again you're talking out your ass. So is this what you do when you have no logic you call people out.

O Ok i guess you're not a Hornets fans. You're only on their bandwagon cause they got Ariza.

Why am I wasting my time with your immature bullshit.

And the only reason I signed up for this in the first was to argue with Spurs fans who were insulting my favorite player in the league.

LMAO ... what an absolutely pathetic argument attempt. Epic fail

Son I have almost 8000 post and was probably the first Hornet fan on this board. You on the other hand have 200 post registered on an account that YOU chose the Spurs as your favorite team for. Oh and the excuse that you "didn't know you could pick favorite teams" is like saying "I didn't know I needed to create a username to access the boards!" LOLZZZ

[Purch]

LMAO ... what an absolutely pathetic argument attempt. Epic fail

Son I have over 5000 post and was probably the first Hornet fan on this board. You on the other hand have 200 post registered on an account that YOU chose the Spurs as your favorite team for. Oh and the excuse that you "didn't know you could pick favorite teams" is like saying "I didn't know I needed to create a username to access the boards!" LOLZZZ
So?

I didn't know you could. I thought you changed it in your control panel after you signed up.


So what's your point?:lol

[Purch]

I thought I made it fairly obvious with the Utah avatar and a signature with Jerry Sloan when I signed up.

[Andrew Bynum]

Where is Fisher?

Mentally preparing for the big shots he'll hit next post season to help the Laker three-peat.

[BRHornet45]

I thought I made it fairly obvious with the Utah avatar and a signature with Jerry Sloan when I signed up.

Come on son no need to keep on. just let it go..

U mad?

[Purch]

Come on son no need to keep on. just let it go..

U mad?
Why am I mad that you're talking out your ass?

[BRHornet45]

Why am I made that you're talking out your ass?

Son we get it. You're a San Antonio Jazz fan ...





For this week that is

[Girasuck]

Son first of all where do you watch 82 Jazz games every year? Oh wait ... you're fucking lying through your teeth. Did you know that not even in Utah can you see all 82 games on TV? There are always a handful that are not broadcasted. Also you are a Spurs fan. How in the hell would you be able to watch 82 games every year for another team? Stop lying. Not everyone on here jumps on the very trendy Deron Williams bandwagon. The dude is an above average defender AT BEST.

Hey BR....you're full of shit. We get all 82 Jazz games here in Utah and it's been that way for 3 years now. Please STFU when it comes to stuff you have no fucking clue about.

[Purch]

Son we get it. You're a San Antonio Jazz fan ...





For this week that is

And when did I say I was a san antonio fan

And btw

Just to show how much of a dumbass you are.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122311

Here's my account on Ish In the Jazz section from months before I ever signed up for Spurstalk.

But if you don't belive me I'll make a special post saying "Br Hornets a dumbass"

[Purch]

Yea but according to your info the " new you" might not be so bright so let me break it down for you.

You said I Just became a Jazz fan.


Yet I just showed you one of my post in the Jazz section on a forum on

02-25-2009

So please explain to me how this is possible

[BronxCowboy]

And I also doubt Devin Harris is better then a healthy Tony Parker.

Agreed. Devin Harris has no business on this list at all. Can't really complain about anyone else.

[DPG21920]

lol Hornets fans defending Paul like he is family.

[JMarkJohns]

Why would anybody bandwagon for Al Jefferson? Purch is as he claims: a Jazz fan.

[Purch]

Why would anybody bandwagon for Al Jefferson? Purch is as he claims: a Jazz fan.

Thx Mark :married:

[Kevin Durant 35]

imo

5. Russell Westbrook
4. Steve Nash
3. Rajon Rondo
2. Deron Williams
1. Chris Paul

[Purch]

I have to wonder how Good Steve Nash will be next season one year older with one less star on his team.

[redzero]

lol Hornets fans defending Paul like he is family.

Really? Should I bring up that "Tim Duncan is overrated topic"?

EDIT: Hell, I could just link to the that Harlem Heat topic that currently has 236 replies.

[TheSullyMonster]

Son first of all where do you watch 82 Jazz games every year? Oh wait ... you're fucking lying through your teeth. Did you know that not even in Utah can you see all 82 games on TV? There are always a handful that are not broadcasted. Also you are a Spurs fan. How in the hell would you be able to watch 82 games every year for another team? Stop lying. Not everyone on here jumps on the very trendy Deron Williams bandwagon. The dude is an above average defender AT BEST.

The Jazz make the playoffs. Easier to reach 82 that way.:wakeup

[DPG21920]

Really? Should I bring up that "Tim Duncan is overrated topic"?

EDIT: Hell, I could just link to the that Harlem Heat topic that currently has 236 replies.

What does that have to do with you acting like a mad man because someone thinks DWill is better than CP3?

[BRHornet45]

lol Hornets fans defending Paul like he is family.

lol son you Spurs fanboys do the EXACT same thing with Duncan, Manu, and Parker. hello ... pot meet kettle. ok bye now

[DPG21920]

Sons, we defend champions. They deserve the respect of being defended from the likes of haters. No ring players cannot be defended.

And when CP3 reaches Duncan's level of greatness, then you can put them in the sentence. Ok now, bye bye then.

[BRHornet45]

Sons, we defend champions. They deserve the respect of being defended from the likes of haters. No ring players cannot be defended.

And when CP3 reaches Duncan's level of greatness, then you can put them in the sentence. Ok now, bye bye then.

Pot what in the blue hell are you talking about? no one is trying to put or compare Paul on the "same level" as Duncan. Pot plz pay attention. You made a silly comment that Hornets fans are defending Paul like family. I then replied saying that you Spurs fanboys do the exact same thing with Duncan, Manu, and Parker. I GUARANTEE you there are Spurs fans on here who will argue that the terribly overrated Manu is just as good, if not better than the likes of Kobe, D-Wade, etc. I GUARANTEE IT!

so Pot stop your hating and go back to watching re-runs on NBATV from whenever the Spurs were actually a legit team. There is nothing wrong with fans of any team defending their players. by the way I hope you like your new name. don't call me black until you look at yourself in the mirror you hypocrite you!

[Cry Havoc]

Is it stupid to say that I think Paul and Deron are equal right now? They both offer advantages that the other does not. I'll take a mulligan and say whoever has a better year this year is the #1 PG in basketball.


Also, I don't know how anyone who's watched the Hornets the last two years could blame New Orleans fans for loving and defending Chris Paul. The dude is an absolutely crazy PG... he'll likely be the best player in the history of the franchise if he stays with them. Guys like that don't come along every decade, let alone every 2-3 years.

[DPG21920]

Sons, I am a CP3 fan. I said people defend Duncan because he is a champion. It makes sense. What does not make sense is to defend CP3 like a mother hen when someone says DWill is better because it can be argued.

There is not much that can be argued against Tim.

What do you mean when the Spurs were actually legit? They are still better than the Hornet :lol (see last year) and the Hornets were never legit.

[BRHornet45]

Is it stupid to say that I think Paul and Deron are equal right now? They both offer advantages that the other does not. I'll take a mulligan and say whoever has a better year this year is the #1 PG in basketball.

son no that isn't stupid and is more than fair. you actually have some sense and knowledge about the game of basketball unlike 90% of other fanboys who post here. most people just want to "fit in" with the cool crowd and join the trendy grassroots-like movement on this message board for Deron Williams. ignoring facts and stats and shamelessly lying and exaggerating is what they do best.

[BRHornet45]

Sons, I am a CP3 fan. I said people defend Duncan because he is a champion. It makes sense. What does not make sense is to defend CP3 like a mother hen when someone says DWill is better because it can be argued.

There is not much that can be argued against Tim.

What do you mean when the Spurs were actually legit? They are still better than the Hornet :lol (see last year) and the Hornets were never legit.

son in case you haven't notice the Hornets are currently in the process of building a dynasty. Melo WILL take his talents to the Big Easy next season and we will continue to add solid role players (Ariza this season, etc.).

anyways people DO have a case to argue with Duncan. Mav fans do it all the time with Dirk (LMAO) ... which of course we all should know is a total joke. that 7ft tall, jump shooting, non rebounding, flopping faggott is no competition. However others like Garnett, Barkley, etc. do have a case.

[DPG21920]

They really don't have a case, and arguing something stupid (like Dirk vs. Duncan) does not mean you have a legit case. But DWill vs CP3 is legit, even though I vote for CP3.

[BRHornet45]

They really don't have a case, and arguing something stupid (like Dirk vs. Duncan) does not mean you have a legit case. But DWill vs CP3 is legit, even though I vote for CP3.

Barkley easily has a case. He scored more points, more rebounds, shot the ball better in every category, etc. He also had to play with weaker teams and against Michael Jordan. Duncan has had far better teams and his only real competition has been the Lakers (who have won 5 championships since he has been in the NBA).

I'm not saying one is far better than the other, although I do prefer Barkley. However its silly to say "no one has a case against Duncan".

[DPG21920]

I did not say no one. I said there are not many. With your Barkley argument, you are forgetting about the defensive side of the ball. Even Charles said Tim is better. DWill would not say that about CP3.

[redzero]

Sons, we defend champions. They deserve the respect of being defended from the likes of haters. No ring players cannot be defended.

Cool story, bro. That makes no sense, especially when comparing two players who don't have any rings.

You're just being a hypocrite.

[Cry Havoc]

Cool story, bro. That makes no sense, especially when comparing two players who don't have any rings.

You're just being a hypocrite.

I would hate to think that we cannot defend players who don't have any rings.

I'm far from a Lions fan, but anyone who tells me that Barry Sanders isn't at LEAST a top 3 running back of all-time in the NFL is going to have a few very defensive arguments on their hands.

Same goes for Dan Marino. Or Jason Kidd. Or Baylor, Barkley, etc. Some of the best players never won a title in their entire career, and CP3 is just getting started.

[DPG21920]

Cool story, bro. That makes no sense, especially when comparing two players who don't have any rings.

You're just being a hypocrite.

I always find internet lingo such as "cool story, bro" funny. That was just a joke to add fuel to the fire talking to BR.

The main point is however that you more than anyone got extremely upset when someone said DWill was better than CP3 and I found it hilarious. I don't care if Spurs fans do it as well, I found what you did to be particularly funny.

Like I said, you can't really compare you defending CP3 like he was your brother to Spurs fans defending Duncan. Most of the Duncan arguments (Dirk, KG...) are not even close. DWill vs CP3 is.

[Henke]

that 7ft tall, jump shooting, non rebounding, flopping faggott is no competition. However others like Garnett, Barkley, etc. do have a case.

A CP3 fan talks about flopping.Neat.

Dirk isn't a flopper.You're just a blind hater.

[DPG21920]

I love Dirk. He is a flopper. Manu is a flopper. So is CP3.

[Ashy Larry]

I love Dirk. He is a flopper. Manu is a flopper. So is CP3.

Who's the best flopper in the league??

Better yet, who's the best flopper out of those three??

[Henke]

I love Dirk. He is a flopper. Manu is a flopper. So is CP3.

First of all,Paul and Ginobili are the kings of flopping.Putting Dirk's name in the same sentence with them is kinda stupid.

I still think that he isn't a flopper.

Don't forget that coaches are often going small on him.Smaller defenders tend to be very ''physical'' when they guard him,so there is always a lot of contact.
Yes,you can argue that sometimes he sells this shit pretty hard and he gets some bullshit superstar calls but I don't consider this as flopping.

[DPG21920]

Who's the best flopper in the league??

CP3, Manu and Dirk in that order. Dirk is really close to Manu though, especially for someone that big.

Best flopper is CP3 or Manu because they get the calls even when it is blatantly obvious :lol

[redzero]

Who's the best flopper in the league??

Better yet, who's the best flopper out of those three??

Manu > CP3 > Dirk

Dirk being seven feet tall makes his flopping a little less believable.

[redzero]

Uh, DPG, I think you messed up when you were trying to make fun of me. Try that again.

[DPG21920]

Butt hurt for even noticing. :lol

[redzero]

...How could I not notice when you just quoted probably seven or eight posts?

You're beginning to sound like lefty.

[Henke]

Who's the best flopper in the league??

Better yet, who's the best flopper out of those three??

Gasol is a bigger flopper than Dirk.Fact.

[DPG21920]

Ok Mr. Lefty. Even after I tell you I am trolling you, you still go all Lefty. Wow.

[redzero]

Hey, you were trying to find all my posts in this topic and quote them to prove some kind of point, right? I'll let you get back to it.

I'm sure it will be something as hilarious as ":lol Hornets." That was devastating.

[redzero]

Paul is the best PG and it's not even close. The comparisons between him and Deron are an insult to Paul.

Look at it from my perspective. I have gone to quite a few Hornets games in the last few years. I've watched Chris play amazingly for a while now.

To me, I just don't understand why people say that both players are close when Chris Paul has played better year after year. Even in a season in which Chris was injured almost half the time, his stats are better than Deron's across the board.

[DPG21920]

No girl. I had them quoted for some reason from a while ago (a post I never made) and instead of deleting them when I quoted something else it posted them. It was erased in 5 seconds, but of course you being Mr. Lefty and all (also a hypocrite because you act just like him) noticed it and you just had to post about it.

You are one butt hurt person. We need the Jim Rome troll: "wow, look at the level of butt hurt from this poster. Un.Bee.Leave.Able."

What's next from you, calling me a hypocrite (when it makes no sense in context)? That is making me an emotional wreck.

[Ashy Larry]

Gasol is a bigger flopper than Dirk.Fact.


I wouldn't argue with that ...... Derek Fisher has got to be up there as well ......

This is a gem as well

a2FG1WAry08

[DPG21920]

Look at it from my perspective. I have gone to quite a few Hornets games in the last few years. I've watched Chris play amazingly for a while now.

To me, I just don't understand why people say that both players are close when Chris Paul has played better year after year. Even in a season in which Chris was injured almost half the time, his stats are better than Deron's across the board.

So is it just about stats? Because there are many players who get stats, but it does not translate to winning or making the playoffs. It is definitely debatable and again you look hilarious saying it is not.

[BadOdor]

anyone who posts below me is a homo.


shhhh girlz.

[DPG21920]

And I think Paul is better than Williams.

[redzero]

So is it just about stats? Because there are many players who get stats, but it does not translate to winning or making the playoffs. It is definitely debatable and again you look hilarious saying it is not.

Oh, so we're comparing Chris Paul to somebody like Zach Randolph now?

The Hornets didn't make the playoffs because (1) Chris Paul was injured, (2) they weren't good from a chemistry perspective and (3) the team wasn't that good to begin with.

Again, it is not debatable.

Who is the better scorer? Who is the better shooter? Passer? Ball handler? Rebounder?

Oh, but I'm not allowed to talk because Chris Paul has never won a ring. :lmao

[Henke]

I wouldn't argue with that ...... Derek Fisher has got to be up there as well ......

This is a gem as well

a2FG1WAry08

Yeah,no question.Kirilenko is in top5 hands down.

FEx4JUDeyAQ

[DPG21920]

It is debatable and the fact you keep going back to an obvious joke that I made reeks of butt hurt. Let it go Louie.

They did not make the playoffs because they weren't very good. Even with Paul healthy I don't see them making it.

That was not the point. The point is that it is debatable and stats do not tell the entire story. Who compared Paul to Randolph? That is you being self conscious. The point was to show the stats argument is not always the best argument, especially when the systems, talent and other factors between two great players are relevant.

The fact CP3 has no ring has nothing to do with your terrible takes on the matter that CP3 is so far ahead of Williams that it is not debatable.

[redzero]

Yeah, I have horrible takes. I have used facts and you haven't actually said anything but "It's debatable."

Come on, be Devil's Advocate and list some reasons why it is debatable.

[Hornets1]

Paul/D-Will



OTHERS

[elemento]

Paul is better than Williams

People don't like Paul just because he is Lebron's close friend.

[spursncowboys]

I think pass-first point guards should be higher on the lists. Parker, Rondo, Westbrook are all too high on Darrin's list IMO.
My list is about the PG and not the overall success of the team.

1. Nash
2. D-Will
3. CP
4. Billups
5. Rose
6. Rondo
7. Brooks
8. Harris
8. Parker
8. Westbrook

[Ashy Larry]

Yeah,no question.Kirilenko is in top5 hands down.

FEx4JUDeyAQ



8ukde193ivM


gotta love Bob Horry

[redzero]

Paul is better than Williams

People don't like Paul just because he is Lebron's close friend.

I wouldn't go that far. Paul went down with injury and people have a short memory, so they put Williams above Paul.

[IronMexican]

Paul is the best PG and it's not even close. The comparisons between him and Deron are an insult to Paul.

Agree with this.

[DPG21920]

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

Deron Williams Career Averages:

Reg Seas: 35 MPG, 16.7 PTS, 9 AST, 3.1 REBS, 46% FG, 80% FT, 36% 3 PT, 1 STL, 2.98 TO's

PO's - 40 MPG, 21.1 PTS, 9.6 AST, 3.7 REBS, 45% FG, 80% FT, 40% 3 PT, 1.2 STL, 3.55 TO's

He has led his team to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years. He was only bounced in the first round once, and reached the second round twice along with a WCF appearance. The only time he missed the playoffs was his rookie year.

Chris Paul Career Averages:

Reg: 37 MPG, 19.3 PTS, 10 AST, 4.7 REBS, 47% FG, 84% FT, 35% 3 PT, 2.4 STLS, 2.57 TO's

PO's: 40 MPG, 21.9 PTS, 11 AST, 4.8 REBS, 48% FG, 80% FT, 27% 3 PT, 2.1 STLS, 2.71 TO's

He has led his team to the playoffs twice in 5 years. He got bounced in the first round once and the second round the other time. So he has missed them more than he has made them and never been past the second round.

Paul has a clear edge in most stats, but it is not some landslide of a gap. Especially when you look at playoff averages. It is hard to say (like you do) that Paul is clearly the better shooter as well, especially when you look at 3 PT % (especially in the playoffs).

When stats are some what close, winning is the next thing you look at. Deron has clearly won more than Paul. He has taken his team to the playoffs double the amount of times that Paul has for various reasons. Not only that, he has fared better in the playoffs from a winning perspective.

Deron is also much bigger and that is something you can't teach and that is not a skill. It is an actual physical mis-match. While Paul out does Williams on the defensive stats, I think Deron is a better defender. This is much harder to prove, but it comes with watching them play.

When you start to equalize things out using advance metrics (Per 36 stats, true %'s) the numbers start to look a little closer. Paul still has the edge statistically, but it becomes a little closer.

Paul is definitely the better player in my opinion and does more for his team in terms of numbers and carrying the load. It just has not translated to winning like Deron. Now, that is an entirely different debate that is much harder to quantify, but that caveat, the winning, combined with the stats both being ridiculously good makes it debatable.

[redzero]

Per game averages are a little dated.

He has led his team to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years. He was only bounced in the first round once, and reached the second round twice along with a WCF appearance. The only time he missed the playoffs was his rookie year.

Yes, Deron has lead his team to the playoffs. However, Deron also had better teammates. Carlos Boozer, AK-47, Memo, Millsap and the rest are better overall players than David West, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler and the rest. Out of the three aforementioned players, two of them had one decent year and they played mediocre for the rest of their tenures as Hornets.


He has led his team to the playoffs twice in 5 years. He got bounced in the first round once and the second round the other time. So he has missed them more than he has made them and never been past the second round.

And that can't be blamed on Paul just like the T-Wolves missing the playoffs can't be blamed on Kevin Garnett.


Paul has a clear edge in most stats, but it is not some landslide of a gap. Especially when you look at playoff averages. It is hard to say (like you do) that Paul is clearly the better shooter as well, especially when you look at 3 PT % (especially in the playoffs).

Actually, when taking into consideration things like pace and PER, the gap does become wider.


When stats are some what close, winning is the next thing you look at. Deron has clearly won more than Paul. He has taken his team to the playoffs double the amount of times that Paul has for various reasons. Not only that, he has fared better in the playoffs from a winning perspective.

Again, Deron without question had superior teammates, and again, the stats are not somewhat close.


Deron is also much bigger and that is something you can't teach and that is not a skill. It is an actual physical mis-match. While Paul out does Williams on the defensive stats, I think Deron is a better defender. This is much harder to prove, but it comes with watching them play.

It is much harder to prove because it is an unsubstantiated claim. Also, Deron is a poor rebounder for somebody who has a three or four inch height advantage over Paul, so his size is almost for naught.



Paul is definitely the better player in my opinion and does more for his team in terms of numbers and carrying the load. It just has not translated to winning like Deron. Now, that is an entirely different debate that is much harder to quantify, but that caveat, the winning, combined with the stats both being ridiculously good makes it debatable.

Williams' play has nothing to do with translating to winning. He has had much better teammates throughout his career.

Okay, let's look at the stats a little closer.

Chris Paul:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1761/cp3advancedstats.jpg (http://img37.imageshack.us/i/cp3advancedstats.jpg/)

Deron Williams:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4200/dwilladvancedstats.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/dwilladvancedstats.jpg/)

Chris Paul's PER is seven points higher. His rebounding percentage is two points higher. His assist percentages are five points higher. His steal percentages are more than double that of Deron Williams. His turnover percentages are 3 points lower. His offense win shares blow Deron Williams' out of the water. His defensive win shares blow Deron Williams' out of the water.

Chris Paul:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2691/chrispaulassissted.jpg

Deron Williams:
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9660/dwillassisted.jpg

Chris Paul is assisted on half as many shots as Deron Williams, and he still manages a better fg% and ts%.

And all of this without factoring in pace, which is the biggest thing. Deron Williams' teams have been in the top 10 in pace for the past three years. Chris Paul's teams have been in the bottom five in two out of the last three years. I'm not an expert on pace, but Chris was able to do all of this while playing at one of the slower paces in the league. He had fewer possessions and he has gotten more assists each and every year, which has to account for something. I will find the per possession stats because they better reflect each player's impacts.

[DPG21920]

All that means, is CP3 has to shoulder the load and ball hog more. That is not a bad thing always. When you have better teammates (as you claim), you have less opportunities to score and do things. You can't penalize DWill twice. Either you say CP3 gets better stats because he has more opportunities or you dismiss the better teammate argument with regards to winning.

How you can see those stats (see 3PT %) and say Paul is the better shooter ant that the stats are not close? I never said Paul does not have the edge statistically, but when you look at playoff stats (which are the most important), the numbers are definitely close.

You can't just look at stats and then dismiss winning because of "better teammates". That is hard to prove and does not account for everything. Just like defense is harder to prove, just laying the playoff failures on "better teammates" is unsubstantiated.

Either way, it is certainly debatable because of the winning and playoffs. Just because you want to dismiss that because of better teammates does not mean it gets tossed aside in the debate. Winning is everything and when you are debating, that takes serious precedence.

[Koolaid_Man]

Nice article. I disagree on One through four though. But it was great following the article through all the Ty Lawson Pictures.

I would have went with

1. D-Will
2. Cp3
3. Nash
4. Rondo


But it's a good list either way.

no thanks Imma roll with Fisher...my money is on Fish and he's delivered the last 2 years...:rollinBut now that Blake is in LA I say he deserves to be mentioned as a top 10 guard...it's similar to guilt by association. :lol

[redzero]

Of course, now we are at the "Paul has the ball in his hands more." Deron Williams already turns the ball over more with the ball in his hands less. Add more usage and he turns it over even more.

Also, having the ball in one's hands all the time doesn't make somebody that efficient. Monta Ellis had the ball in his hands more. His efficiency got worse. Trevor Ariza had the ball in his hands more. His efficiency got worse. Just because one has the ball in their hands a lot doesn't mean they are going to have a 30 PER by year's end. That is simply not the way it works.

Deron Williams already plays on a team with a faster pace. He already has those extra possessions. Would having the ball in his hands even more raise his stats? Maybe, but definitely not from an efficiency point of view.

We must take into account winning when dealing with one player, but when it's more than one, it becomes hard to prove? Since basketball is a team game, we must take into account the other four players on the court.

[Girasuck]

I feel bad for you redzero that you're so fucking butt hurt about this that you'd take so much time arguing it on a message board. Honestly...you're pathetic man.

[redzero]

I feel bad for you redzero that you're so fucking butt hurt about this that you'd take so much time arguing it on a message board. Honestly...you're pathetic man.

I thought I was having a basketball discussion on a basketball forum.

I guess I'll take my butthurt ass to another forum now. :depressed

[DPG21920]

Of course, now we are at the "Paul has the ball in his hands more." Deron Williams already turns the ball over more with the ball in his hands less. Add more usage and he turns it over even more.

Again, no one is saying Paul is less efficient or that he is only efficient because he has the ball more.

But I could easily say "of course, now we are at the Deron wins more because his team is better argument". What I am saying is that if you are using the "better teammates" argument, would it not make sense that Deron's numbers would be less? I am saying you can't use the teammates to knock Williams clear edge in winning down, while not using it when it makes Paul's numbers look better.


Also, having the ball in one's hands all the time doesn't make somebody that efficient. Monta Ellis had the ball in his hands more. His efficiency got worse. Trevor Ariza had the ball in his hands more. His efficiency got worse. Just because one has the ball in their hands a lot doesn't mean they are going to have a 30 PER by year's end. That is simply not the way it works.

Again, you aren't understanding the argument.


Deron Williams already plays on a team with a faster pace. He already has those extra possessions. Would having the ball in his hands even more raise his stats? Maybe, but definitely not from an efficiency point of view.

You are acting like Deron is some wildly inefficient guy. He is not as efficient as Paul, but he is still elite.


We must take into account winning when dealing with one player, but when it's more than one, it becomes hard to prove? Since basketball is a team game, we must take into account the other four players on the court.

Paul had plenty of talent, especially with someone of his caliber. Not making the playoffs more than you miss them is inexcusable. Winning is winning. It is what separates the good from the great. It is what all players are judged by.

Winning is not hard to prove, just like stats. It is right in front of your face. Saying someone has better teammates therefor that explains the dominance of one over the other is what is hard to prove.

[Purch]

Better teammates, this seems to be going into Kg vs Duncan territory.

[DPG21920]

Better teammates, this seems to be going into Kg vs Duncan territory.

Except that one guy was better statistically better AND won more.

[redzero]

But I could easily say "of course, now we are at the Deron wins more because his team is better argument". What I am saying is that if you are using the "better teammates" argument, would it not make sense that Deron's numbers would be less?

No, not really. Chris's numbers were better in 2008 and he had a better record than the Jazz with Deron Williams ever had, and he was second in MVP voting.



Again, you aren't understanding the argument.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Michael Jordan has the highest career PER of all time, and he was on some good teams. LeBron James was on a 66 win team and his PER was over 31. Shaq posted PERs of over 30 as a Laker.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

Here is the list of the players with the highest PERs in a season. Now tell me how many of them had bad teammates in those seasons.


You are acting like Deron is some wildly inefficient guy. He is not as efficient as Paul, but he is still elite.

No, this is the difference between good efficiency and great efficiency.



Paul had plenty of talent, especially with someone of his caliber. Not making the playoffs more than you miss them is inexcusable. Winning is winning. It is what separates the good from the great. It is what all players are judged by.

So was KG not great when his team missed the playoffs three years in a row? This is a team game. Period.


Winning is not hard to prove, just like stats. It is right in front of your face. Saying someone has better teammates therefor that explains the dominance of one over the other is what is hard to prove.

What dominance are you talking about? Again, you say it's hard to prove that one wins because he has better teammates, then in the same breath imply that winning is the cause of better play. I am merely doing the same thing and applying it to everybody on the team.

[redzero]

And while we are on the subject of numbers going down when players play on better teams, Chris Paul posted a 30 PER the very next season and his team had one more win than the Jazz.

[DPG21920]

No, not really. Chris's numbers were better in 2008 and he had a better record than the Jazz with Deron Williams ever had, and he was second in MVP voting.

I never said it was a matter of fact. But when you have a very well balanced team, usually numbers take a hit. That is also because some guys are better at running a team and don't get all the stats that they could because it would be a net loss.

What does regular season record mean? Nothing. Missing the playoffs more than you make them and having one guy that doubles the other guy up in playoff appearances and that went further than the other speaks volumes.



You're not understanding what I'm saying. Michael Jordan has the highest career PER of all time, and he was on some good teams. LeBron James was on a 66 win team and his PER was over 31. Shaq posted PERs of over 30 as a Laker.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

Here is the list of the players with the highest PERs in a season. Now tell me how many of them had bad teammates in those seasons.

I never said that you can't be on a good team and post good numbers, although the Cavs weren't what you call deep on talent. Lebron is just that good. Shaq is one of the most, if not the most dominant players of all time.

I said that you can't say "it's a team game and Paul's individual stats (a lot of which rely on other players making plays) are great, and the clear advantage Williams has in winning is all attributable to his better teammates. Especially when Paul had some very well balanced and talented teams.




No, this is the difference between good efficiency and great efficiency.

Yes, there is. Deron Williams is elite when it comes to point guards.



So was KG not great when his team missed the playoffs three years in a row? This is a team game. Period.

That was always a knock on KG. He was still considered great, but he could never be mentioned with the likes of Duncan because of winning. It is a team game and KG did have some talented teams and did not get it done. Lebron took less talented teams than KG had to the finals and at a younger age.


What dominance are you talking about? Again, you say it's hard to prove that one wins because he has better teammates, then in the same breath imply that winning is the cause of better play. I am merely doing the same thing and applying it to everybody on the team.

What dominance. In the same amount of time, Williams has led the Jazz to 4 playoff appearances and CP3 has 2. Williams has been to the second round the same amount CP3 has made the playoffs. Williams has a WCF appearance. That is winning dominance. That gap is just as big as the statistical gap that CP3 has. Also, like I said, the playoffs are what matters and that statistical lead CP3 has over DWill shrinks when you look at playoffs.

Winning is winning. Stat are stats. Some correlate strongly with winning, some have a lesser effect. I am implying that you can't say DWill is not debatable over CP3 because he has won so much more where it counts (playoffs) and the playoff stats (even regular season) are somewhat close.

Clearly better teammates has an effect on winning, but Paul has had enough talent to where they should be in the playoffs more than the lottery.

[redzero]

I never said it was a matter of fact. But when you have a very well balanced team, usually numbers take a hit. That is also because some guys are better at running a team and don't get all the stats that they could because it would be a net loss.

We aren't talking about the Celtics here. We aren't talking about the Miami Heat. These teams are not that well balanced.


What does regular season record mean? Nothing. Missing the playoffs more than you make them and having one guy that doubles the other guy up in playoff appearances and that went further than the other speaks volumes.

It means that based on the regular season, the Hornets were a better team than the Jazz, and Chris Paul's stats did not take a hit. The argument is invalid.



I never said that you can't be on a good team and post good numbers, although the Cavs weren't what you call deep on talent. Lebron is just that good. Shaq is one of the most, if not the most dominant players of all time.

And Chris Paul is just that good. As you saw from 2008, his team won a lot and he still was efficient.


I said that you can't say "it's a team game and Paul's individual stats (a lot of which rely on other players making plays) are great, and the clear advantage Williams has in winning is all attributable to his better teammates. Especially when Paul had some very well balanced and talented teams.

They both have had decent teams. I don't see why Deron's stats should be the ones that take a hit. He's the one with a faster paced team. There is no excuse.



Yes, there is. Deron Williams is elite when it comes to point guards.

He is elite but his efficiency is not on the same level as Paul's.


That was always a knock on KG. He was still considered great, but he could never be mentioned with the likes of Duncan because of winning. It is a team game and KG did have some talented teams and did not get it done. Lebron took less talented teams than KG had to the finals and at a younger age.

KG had how many decent teams? He wasted his career playing for crappy Minnesota teams.


What dominance. In the same amount of time, Williams has led the Jazz to 4 playoff appearances and CP3 has 2. Williams has been to the second round the same amount CP3 has made the playoffs. Williams has a WCF appearance. That is winning dominance. That gap is just as big as the statistical gap that CP3 has. Also, like I said, the playoffs are what matters and that statistical lead CP3 has over DWill shrinks when you look at playoffs.


Winning is winning. Stat are stats. Some correlate strongly with winning, some have a lesser effect. I am implying that you can't say DWill is not debatable over CP3 because he has won so much more where it counts (playoffs) and the playoff stats (even regular season) are somewhat close.

And again, I will say that the stats aren't close and that Williams had better teammates.


Clearly better teammates has an effect on winning, but Paul has had enough talent to where they should be in the playoffs more than the lottery.

Really? When was this? This season? When he missed 37 games? 2006? Who was healthy then? Peja missed many games. Tyson Chandler wasn't playing like he did in 08. The Hornets had a really decent team from 2007 to 2009. The Jazz had a decent team for a longer time.

[DPG21920]

So again, you can't explain why Williams wins so much more in the playoffs:
What dominance. In the same amount of time, Williams has led the Jazz to 4 playoff appearances and CP3 has 2. Williams has been to the second round the same amount CP3 has made the playoffs. Williams has a WCF appearance. That is winning dominance. That gap is just as big as the statistical gap that CP3 has. Also, like I said, the playoffs are what matters and that statistical lead CP3 has over DWill shrinks when you look at playoffs.

You keep focusing on that one thing (Deron's stats on a good team) when that was never the point. It is bordering on semantics. I said that could explain some of the stats difference (even though they are very close in playoff stats which you ignore). I said what this all tells you is that what ever Deron is doing is leading to more success more than just for the individual while maintaining elite stats for a PG.

You also can't say "Chris Paul is that good" when I made the Lebron comment. If he was, he would have taken his teams that had more talent than the Cavs to a finals like Lebron did.

KG's teams weren't all crappy. Was Lebron's Cavs team that went to the finals crappy? Yes. So your argument is invalid.

You keep clinging to the fact Paul does well in the regular season and has had virtually no playoff success. Yes he is more efficient, but what does that translate to? Deron is elite and wins.

So long story short, all of this certainly makes it debatable although I think CP3 is better.

[Jt.ONE]

i don't get what all the fuss is about.
chris vs williams can be very debatable but my take on everything is that deron takes his team further, so being a PG isn't that what your role is? lead your team and win?
why the bitching about better teams? basketball is a team game suck it up.

who cares if chris paul > deron williams stat wise. if paul's numbers were like double deron's numbers then maybe you can argue a case, but they are relatively close.

wins > stats

*
and if you ask me? i prefer deron b/c..

lol paul nut punching
lol paul flopping

[redzero]

So again, you can't explain why Williams wins so much more in the playoffs:

Yeah, he had a chance to get there in the first place.


You keep focusing on that one thing (Deron's stats on a good team) when that was never the point.

No, actually, you tried to use the fact that he was on a good team and imply that it might bet the reason why Deron has worse stats. I showed you that was completely false, since Paul still had better stats in 2008 and 2009 when his team finished with a better record.


It is bordering on semantics. I said that could explain some of the stats difference (even though they are very close in playoff stats which you ignore). I said what this all tells you is that what ever Deron is doing is leading to more success more than just for the individual while maintaining elite stats for a PG.

I have told you that what your reasoning is bologna.


You also can't say "Chris Paul is that good" when I made the Lebron comment. If he was, he would have taken his teams that had more talent than the Cavs to a finals like Lebron did.

Except no. What LeBron did in the East is not comparable to what happens in the West. At all. And LeBron is a better player than Chris Paul. Chris is that good, he isn't as good.


KG's teams weren't all crappy. Was Lebron's Cavs team that went to the finals crappy? Yes. So your argument is invalid.

No, actually, it isn't. This is LeBron James we are talking about. Even Kobe couldn't get out the first round on a one man team, but nobody faults him for it. LeBron performed extraordinarily against the Pistons, and using his situation in the East and comparing it to what happens in the West is stupid.


You keep clinging to the fact Paul does well in the regular season and has had virtually no playoff success. Yes he is more efficient, but what does that translate to? Deron is elite and wins.

Chris does well in the playoffs, too. His stats are better across the board there, too, with the exception of free throw shooting.


So long story short, all of this certainly makes it debatable although I think CP3 is better.

Again, it is not debatable. Deron has the better teammates. It is not something that is far fetched. It is not outlandish. All you have said is that the teams that Deron has been on have more playoff success, but you haven't given any explanation for why that may be. I have showed you that playing on a decent team doesn't automatically make one's stats take a dive, so you can't give me a good reason why Deron's stats are worse.

[redzero]

and if you ask me? i prefer deron b/c..

lol paul nut punching
lol paul flopping

Hold on, are you a Kobe fan?

And since we are going on nothing but winning, how come nobody here put Rondo over Paul and Williams? And what about Nash?

[DPG21920]

Yeah, he had a chance to get there in the first place.

Just a garbage argument that has no validity and nothing substantial to back it up. This is becoming clear that you are defending Paul (like everyone on here notices) just for the sake of it. Paul didn't have a chance? Was his team suspended? Did they ban the Hornets from the playoffs?


No, actually, you tried to use the fact that he was on a good team and imply that it might bet the reason why Deron has worse stats. I showed you that was completely false, since Paul still had better stats in 2008 and 2009 when his team finished with a better record.

It is not completely false. If it were completely false, then you would never be able to find an example of multiple good players playing together and their numbers being less than they would be if they played on a bad team. Is that true? I can certainly find examples of that. So it was not completely false because for every Paul example you can find, I can find a player that it supports.

Again, you are focusing on the only clear thing Paul has over Williams (stats), while trying to knock down the clear advantage Williams has over Paul (winning in the playoffs and playoff appearances). You have done nothing to back up what you are saying except that Deron has better teammates and more opportunity which is bologna.

It is shocking that a fan defending a player on a average team that does not make the playoffs for whatever reason even though they have the best PG in the game, two solid big men and shooting around, tries to dismiss winning as something viable to compare players with. Shocking.

It's even more shocking that they use the excuse that player simply has a better team (which isn't even quite clear in some years) which is something that is hard to quantify, especially when there is not a huge gap in perceived talent (like LA vs ....)



I have told you that what your reasoning is bologna.

I feel the same way about your arguments :lol, so who is correct? I am quite confident it is me since virtually every major pundit in the sport argues about DWill vs CP3 and most are pretty split. That alone shows you it is debatable. Unless you are saying literally most everyone on ST and in the national media and amongst NBA players is wrong and you are right. Because I have heard people from everywhere go back and forth and debate it.


Except no. What LeBron did in the East is not comparable to what happens in the West. At all. And LeBron is a better player than Chris Paul. Chris is that good, he isn't as good.

Except, when I say Lebron is "that good" and you come back and say "Paul is that good" you are putting them in the same breath.

:lmao at the East is not comparable. I don't care what side of the bracket you are on, what Lebron did was nothing short of spectacular and it is an incredibly lame argument to try and knock Lebron to prop up Paul because he was in the East. Being in the East does not make up for the gap in one guy taking an average team to a final and another guy constantly missing the playoffs.



No, actually, it isn't. This is LeBron James we are talking about. Even Kobe couldn't get out the first round on a one man team, but nobody faults him for it. LeBron performed extraordinarily against the Pistons, and using his situation in the East and comparing it to what happens in the West is stupid.

Uhhhhhhhhh except Kobe has only missed the playoffs once with his one man team. CP3, with a better roster than Kobe had, misses the playoffs more than he makes them. So lets see, comparing a player to misses the playoffs once, to a guy that misses 3 out of 5 years is quite dumb.

Also, plenty of people faulted Kobe for that one year. Where have you been? Kobe gets a pass now, because he shut everyone up by winning in the playoffs. Something Paul has not done.

Using the fact Lebron was in the East to prop up Paul for his lack of playoff success is the only thing that is stupid.



Chris does well in the playoffs, too. His stats are better across the board there, too, with the exception of free throw shooting.

Lets not forget 3 PT shooting as well. Deron is a career 40% 3PT shooter in the playoffs, while Paul shoots a measly 27%.

Chris does do well in the playoffs statistically, when he gets there every once in a blue moon. Deron's playoff stats become extremely comparable to Paul's which is what you are so desperately clinging to. What does that say? Or do you not agree that:

40 MPG, 21.1 PTS, 9.6 AST, 3.7 REBS, 45% FG, 80% FT, 40% 3 PT,

is comparable to

40 MPG, 21.9 PTS, 11 AST, 4.8 REBS, 48% FG, 80% FT, 27% 3 PT

Especially when one player has a much larger sample size?

Also doing well in the playoffs means getting there and making a run. Deron has been to the WCF, Paul has not. Deron has been to the second round the same amount of times Paul has been to the playoffs.



Again, it is not debatable. Deron has the better teammates. It is not something that is far fetched. It is not outlandish. All you have said is that the teams that Deron has been on have more playoff success, but you haven't given any explanation for why that may be. I have showed you that playing on a decent team doesn't automatically make one's stats take a dive, so you can't give me a good reason why Deron's stats are worse.

Again, it is most definitely debatable and the fact you say things are baloney with no legit or quantifiable argument does not make it wrong. Like I said the entire basketball world to some degree (fans, players, coaches, pundits) all have this debate and it is pretty split. That alone shows you, you are wrong.

I think Paul is the better player, but it is most definitely debatable. What is outlandish is laying all the blame for CP3's lack of playoff success on his teammates/"lack of opportunity and giving Williams no credit. I have told you the reason Deron has playoff success is because he is great at running his team efficiently and maximizing what he gets from everyone along with maintaining elite PG stats for himself. He does work on both ends of the floor. It is why this is debatable and you crying about CP3's teammates does not change that. It is the reason why you can't explain the lack of playoff success when all the other elite players (Kobe, Wade, Lebron...) all take/took teams worse than the Hornets to the playoffs multiple times, while CP3 misses them more than he makes them

Deron's stats are worse (but not really when it matters which is the playoffs) because Paul is the more efficient player. So he has great stats. It is not that surprising, but that alone does not make him so much better than Williams that it is not debatable.

[Purch]

To Lazy to read. Did someone use the Yao ming vs Dwight Howard argument yet?

Since player A(Dwight Howard) scores more points with greater efficiency he's a better offensive player?

[DPG21920]

Sons, you have to read my last one.

[Jt.ONE]

Hold on, are you a Kobe fan?

And since we are going on nothing but winning, how come nobody here put Rondo over Paul and Williams? And what about Nash?


i am a fan of multiple players in the league, kobe being 1 of them.
what about it?

-rajon is the not the main man on his team versus paul and deron
-nash is past his prime

[DPG21920]

It's also funny how he keeps clinging to semantics like it proves an entire argument wrong. Like when he says: "The Hornets won one more game than the Jazz that year and Paul posted a great PER...so what about numbers going down on a good team now?".

So? He keeps acting like a one win difference is some monumental difference in how good a team is or something like that. There are a bunch of those little things that he puts so much credence in when in reality the difference between said things is not as vast as he portrays them to be.

I also find it hilarious that I actually think CP3 is better and I having to go to such great lengths just to prove his ludicrous point wrong. I tell him it is ridiculous to get so butt hurt when someone says William is better than Paul.

He says, oh really, show me how it can be argued. I go through a lot of time explaining it and he just says "that's baloney" :lol.

[Pelicans78]

I think CP3 is a better pure PG than Williams, but its debatable if he's a better overall player.

The reason why CP3 puts up better stats is because he's a better ball-handler, better passer, commits less turnovers, shoots a higher FG%, better FT shooter, and has quicker hands and instincts to get more steals. Even if D-Will played on a worse team, he still wouldn't put up quite the stats since CP3 does some of these things better. Overall he's a better pure PG.

Williams however has the ability to play SG as well and due to his size can defend bigger strong guards. He's an excellent one-on-one scorer. CP3 has improved in that aspect, but still not quite the perimeter scorer like D-Will. This fact makes it quite more even when comparing both players.

Utah has been the deeper team and probably better coached, plus losing a healthy Tyson Chandler was a big blow overall to the team and he hasn't been replaced. Utah has made the playoffs, but overall hasn't done that much. Ten years from now, their playoff performances won't be remembered just the like Hornets with the exception of 121-63. No excuse for that. That's why the team is vastly different now from that team two years ago. Okafor, Thornton, Ariza, Aaron Gray, Songalia, Pondexter, Bellinelli, Brackins, new head coach, new GM, and hopefully new owner soon. Only guys left from that team are CP3, West, and Peja.

[DPG21920]

I don't think anyone was trying to say the Jazz were some epic playoff team, but when you have a player as good as Paul and you have a solid supporting cast most years, there is no excuse for not being a playoff team every year. Williams has done that (except his rookie year I believe). His team is not that much better than the Hornets have been in terms of perceived talent and depth.

The entire point is that you can't say something stupid like "there is no debate" when there clearly is. You can't dismiss winning and getting to the playoffs, especially if you want to say CP3 is elite. Because the other elite players (Wade, Kobe, Lebron) have all done so much more with less talent than Paul has had around him in their down years with regards to at least making the playoffs.

[Pelicans78]

I don't think anyone was trying to say the Jazz were some epic playoff team, but when you have a player as good as Paul and you have a solid supporting cast most years, there is no excuse for not being a playoff team every year. Williams has done that (except his rookie year I believe). His team is not that much better than the Hornets have been in terms of perceived talent and depth.

The entire point is that you can't say something stupid like "there is no debate" when there clearly is. You can't dismiss winning and getting to the playoffs, especially if you want to say CP3 is elite. Because the other elite players (Wade, Kobe, Lebron) have all done so much more with less talent than Paul has had around him in their down years with regards to at least making the playoffs.

CP3 took over a team that was 18-64 the year before and instantly improved them by 20 wins. It was still a bad team overall. Only West and CP3 remain from that team.

The next season, the majority of guys were hit by the injury bug. West missed 30 games, Peja missed 70 games, Chandler missed 17 games, Paul missed a bunch of games as well. The team still missed the playoffs by only a 3 games. Injuries made that season a wash.

The next season, everyone was healthy and the team finished 2nd in the West, CP3 was 2nd in the MVP voting and the team advanced to the 2nd round.

The following season, Chandler missed most of the season and was playing on one foot in the Denver series, plus the team wasn't very good anyway, but they still won 49 games and made the playoffs because CP3 had a better season than the one before. However, they were badly mismatched across the board against a loaded Nuggets team

Last season the team replaced Chandler with Okafor, brought in several new players, fired Byron Scott after ten games and replaced him with the GM who had no previous coaching experience (who got fired this summer as well), and CP3 missed half the season as well. The team was starting to play well before CP3's injury and were in the 8th spot of the playoffs despite a 3-8 start and CP3 missing 10 games earlier.

Honestly, CP3 has had to carry this franchise with no depth, a small market owner who's main goal is to stay under the luxury tax and is thankfully selling the team, and basically his best go-to-option in David West. Hasn't really that much help around him if you look at the roster yearly. Losing Tyson Chandler was a huge blow to the team because Okafor is just limited as an undersized center. Hopefully things will change, but I doubt it which is why he will probably leave in a couple of seasons.

[DPG21920]

When a player is as good as CP3, if you have a core of West/Paul/Okafor, you should be a playoff team.

The Jazz were hit with the injury bug as well and have a team full of second round draft picks and undersized guys (Milsap) playing their asses off.

[Pelicans78]

When a player is as good as CP3, if you have a core of West/Paul/Okafor, you should be a playoff team.

The Jazz were hit with the injury bug as well and have a team full of second round draft picks and undersized guys (Milsap) playing their asses off.

Again CP3 missed half the season. If he was healthy, the team might have made the playoffs. Doubt the Jazz would make it if Williams missed half the season.

Besides, Okafor sucks balls. Doesn't do anything particularly well.