Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated

[Winehole23]

http://epony.zonalibre.org/archives/ignatius.JPG


Theology and geometry!

[EVAY]

Okay guys.

I read every single post in the thread.

It seems to me that:

noone is questioning the right of the Muslim community to build the mosque wherever they want if the building permits, etc. are in order.

The rest of the argument is about whether or not Non-Muslim Americans should get exercised about them actually doing what they have a right to do.

I am a non-Muslim American, who believes not only that they have a RIGHT to put up a mosque at ground zero, but I actually hope they do put one up.


Why? Because:

1) It proves that America is a better place than nations governed by theocrats of any religion.

2) It would GUARANTEE that no more al quaida terrorists would bomb the place because they would not defile one of their own holy places by destroying it.

Personally, I think it is a brilliant idea to put up a mosque there.

[Yonivore]

2) It would GUARANTEE that no more al quaida terrorists would bomb the place because they would not defile one of their own holy places by destroying it.
Uh, no.

al-Askari Mosque (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/samarra-mosque.htm)


Personally, I think it is a brilliant idea to put up a mosque there.
Should the Japanese erect a monument to their Emperor in Pearl Harbor?

[ChumpDumper]

Uh, no.

al-Askari Mosque (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/samarra-mosque.htm)


Should the Japanese erect a monument to their Emperor in Pearl Harbor?What are you afraid of, Yoni?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Should the Japanese erect a monument to their Emperor in Pearl Harbor?

Is that actually what you believe this is?? :lol

[ChumpDumper]

There are Shinto shrines around Pearl Harbor and I believe there are Shinto ceremonies held in the Pearl Harbor Chapel.

Outrage!

[Yonivore]

Is that actually what you believe this is?? :lol
Yep. And so do a majority of Americans.

It's the only thing that explains why they're so tone-deaf to the sentiments of New Yorkers.

That and Muslim history of building mosques at the sites of great military victories...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yep. And so do a majority of Americans.

It's the only thing that explains why they're so tone-deaf to the sentiments of New Yorkers.

That and Muslim history of building mosques at the sites of great military victories...

why do you keep quoting "majority"? As if it trumps anything. In this particular case it matters for shit. Specially if their complaint is based on anything like yours is.

Hey Blackjack, when is it ok to categorize fear of Islam as Islamophobia? is Yonivore here not a prime candidate for that label?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Come to think of it, how about the world starts holding Christians accountable for all the shit their kind has pulled throughout history?

Shiiiettt! I know I don't want a christian church anywhere in the vicinity of 100 miles from where I live. Everyone knows how crazy those fuckers can be.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep. And so do a majority of Americans.You'll have to provide a link backing this up.

[DarrinS]

Come to think of it, how about the world starts holding Christians accountable for all the shit their kind has pulled throughout history?

Shiiiettt! I know I don't want a christian church anywhere in the vicinity of 100 miles from where I live. Everyone knows how crazy those fuckers can be.


tolerance

[George Gervin's Afro]

tolerance

sincerely,


the guy who is against the mosque being built

[LnGrrrR]

Uh, no.

al-Askari Mosque (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/samarra-mosque.htm)


Should the Japanese erect a monument to their Emperor in Pearl Harbor?

Well, there's a religious shrine here in Honolulu near Pearl Harbor at the least.

Here's an article discussing it:

http://www.midweek.com/content/columns/justthoughts_article/the_shinto_shrine_near_pearl_harbor/

Would you like to shut that down?

[LnGrrrR]

There are Shinto shrines around Pearl Harbor and I believe there are Shinto ceremonies held in the Pearl Harbor Chapel.

Outrage!

There's a big-ass one here that you can see from the highway. It's quite beautiful, actually.

[ChumpDumper]

Outrageously beautiful!

[Wild Cobra]

Well, there's a religious shrine here in Honolulu near Pearl Harbor at the least.

Here's an article discussing it:

http://www.midweek.com/content/columns/justthoughts_article/the_shinto_shrine_near_pearl_harbor/

Would you like to shut that down?
Hmmm... The closest one is about 4 miles away as the crow flies. Japan has always had cultural heritage to Hawaii.

Apples and oranges anyone? Comparisons...

Worse yet, a Shinto Shrine is not a place of worship.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Hmmm... The closest one is about 4 miles away as the crow flies. Japan has always had cultural heritage to Hawaii.

Apples and oranges anyone? Comparisons...

Worse yet, a Shinto Shrine is not a place of worship.

SO you are against muslims worshipping near ground zero? Is that your problem?

[Wild Cobra]

SO you are against muslims worshipping near ground zero? Is that your problem?
I don't have a problem with them building there. I have a problem because I believe they are doing it to thumb their nose at us.

Tell me. How many Muslim's live close enough to make that location practical?

A community center, there?

[Blake]

I don't have a problem with them building there. I have a problem because I believe they are doing it to thumb their nose at us.

Tell me. How many Muslim's live close enough to make that location practical?

A community center, there?

do thumbs on peoples' noses hurt your ass that much?

why do you believe they would build it to thumb their nose at you?

[LnGrrrR]

I don't have a problem with them building there. I have a problem because I believe they are doing it to thumb their nose at us.

Tell me. How many Muslim's live close enough to make that location practical?

A community center, there?

Eh, probably alot. NY is quite a dense city, population wise. According to this article written in 2007... http://waynecooke.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/muslim-population-in-nyc/


“Numbering an estimated 600,000, Muslims now represent one of the fastest growing religious communities in New York City,” said Peter Awn, co-principal investigator and Columbia University dean of the School of General Studies

And that was three years ago.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, probably alot. NY is quite a dense city, population wise. According to this article written in 2007... http://waynecooke.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/muslim-population-in-nyc/



And that was three years ago.Holy shit!

There are 600,000 terrorists in New York!

[EVAY]

Uh, no.

al-Askari Mosque (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/samarra-mosque.htm)


Should the Japanese erect a monument to their Emperor in Pearl Harbor?

There are lots and lots of Japanese temples near Pearl Harbor. There is a Buddhist temple within 1/2 mile of Pearl Harbor. I'm not familiar enough with Eastern religions to know whether Shintoism or Buddhism is considered worship, but the point is that we don't think anything about the Japanese having their temples near Pearl Harbor.

And only about 14% of Hawaiians identify as 'ethnically Japanese', according to the U.S. census.

Most muslims respect their places of worship as being off-limits to warfare. Remember when the U.S. went into Baghdad and the army officers had their troops prove that they were not about to shoot at a mosque (they turned their guns down) and it really helped with the locals.

What about the fact that there is a Muslim prayer center in the Pentagon.

Are you opposed to that, as well?

[RandomGuy]

Yep. And so do a majority of Americans.

It's the only thing that explains why they're so tone-deaf to the sentiments of New Yorkers.

That and Muslim history of building mosques at the sites of great military victories...

Where to start with that abomination of bad logic?

1) Please provide some support to the statement "the majority of americans" think that the mosque is some sort of "victory shrine".

2) "the only thing that explains" is easily countered, simply by listing the entirely plausible and reasonable factors given for the decision.

3) Since you have stated that "it is the only thing that explains" you have inherently stated that it is some sort of "victory mosque".

Please provide proof of this statement of motive. Since you have asserted this motive, you MUST provide sufficient proof.

If you cannot, then you have proven to be exactly the kind of xenophobe the big bad liberals claim you to be. Your statements here provide some fair proof of that, so I will point right back to this when WC or Darrin or who ever starts crying crocodile tears about being called an islamophobic bigot.

Lastly, if we use your logic of history being a guide to the future, should we expect protestants and catholics to start massacring each other by the millions if they live too close to each other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion)?

The above link glosses over some rather brutal reprisals, including the mass execution of entire towns by one army or another.

If you wish to use history in support of your illogical assertions and beliefs, you will continue to be hoisted by your own petard.

Your logic also allows me to easily mention that similar histories are often cited when muslims talk about the bloodthristy warlike christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades).

Need I go on?

If you cannot provide proof to really support your statements, then we can all safely assume that you are, yet again, talking out your ass.

[Blake]

That and Muslim history of building mosques at the sites of great military victories...

did those mosques include health clubs and memorials dedicated to the ones that lost their lives at that spot?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Where to start with that abomination of bad logic?

1) Please provide some support to the statement "the majority of americans" think that the mosque is some sort of "victory shrine".

2) "the only thing that explains" is easily countered, simply by listing the entirely plausible and reasonable factors given for the decision.

3) Since you have stated that "it is the only thing that explains" you have inherently stated that it is some sort of "victory mosque".

Please provide proof of this statement of motive. Since you have asserted this motive, you MUST provide sufficient proof.

If you cannot, then you have proven to be exactly the kind of xenophobe the big bad liberals claim you to be. Your statements here provide some fair proof of that, so I will point right back to this when WC or Darrin or who ever starts crying crocodile tears about being called an islamophobic bigot.

Lastly, if we use your logic of history being a guide to the future, should we expect protestants and catholics to start massacring each other by the millions if they live too close to each other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion)?

The above link glosses over some rather brutal reprisals, including the mass execution of entire towns by one army or another.

If you wish to use history in support of your illogical assertions and beliefs, you will continue to be hoisted by your own petard.

Your logic also allows me to easily mention that similar histories are often cited when muslims talk about the bloodthristy warlike christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades).

Need I go on?

If you cannot provide proof to really support your statements, then we can all safely assume that you are, yet again, talking out your ass.

Wow, this is a complete and utter beat down of Yoni, WC and darrins...

They assume and assign motives all of the time.... without a hint of proof

logic isn't their strong suit..

[Blake]

Wow, this is a complete and utter beat down of Yoni, WC and darrins... logic isn't their strong suit..

I'm betting at least one of them come back for more.

[Blackjack]

Ran across this looking for something else. Make sure to hit the link for comments -- y'all should enjoy. :downspin:

Pearl's father: Move mosque (http://www.politico.com/blogs/maggiehaberman/0810/Pearls_father_Move_mosque.html)
Maggie Haberman - POLITICO

Judea Pearl, the father of slain journalist Daniel Pearl, says the proposed Islamic center near ground zero should be moved, the Jewish Telegraph agency reports.

“If I were [New York] Mayor Bloomberg I would reassert their right to build the mosque, but I would expend the same energy trying to convince them to put it somewhere else,” he said. “Public reaction tells us that it is not the right time, and that it will create further animosity and division in this country."

Bloomberg invoked the memory of Daniel Pearl — who was killed by Islamic militants — during a forceful defense of the mosque last night, quoting a speech the project's leader, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, delivered at a memorial service for Pearl in 2003.

Judea Pearl doesn't join the condemnation of Rauf, who has become a primary target of the mosque's loudest critics, but does appear to attribute some blame to (or at least disappoint with) Muslim-Americans for the tenor of the debate:



Pearl told JTA that while he was “touched” by Rauf’s appearance and speech at his son’s memorial, “many Muslim leaders offered their condolences at the time.” More to the point, Pearl said he is discouraged that the Muslim leadership has not followed through on what he hoped would come from his son's death.

“At the time, I truly believed Danny’s murder would be a turning point in the reaction of the civilized world toward terrorism,” said Pearl, who engages in public conversations with Akbar Ahmed, an Islamic studies professor at American University, on behalf of the Daniel Pearl Dialogue for Muslim-Jewish Understanding. The established Muslim leadership in the United States, Pearl said, “has had nine years to build up trust by pro-actively resisting anti-American ideologies of victimhood, anger and entitlement."

"Reactions to the mosque project indicate that they were not too successful in this endeavor."

He views the controversy to be a vote of no confidence in the organized Muslim leadership, not specifically against Rauf.

[The Franchise]

Yep. And so do a majority of Americans.

It's the only thing that explains why they're so tone-deaf to the sentiments of New Yorkers.

That and Muslim history of building mosques at the sites of great military victories...

I for one hope they build the mosque. How is it any different from a baptist church being built near ground zero?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I for one hope they build the mosque. How is it any different from a baptist church being built near ground zero?

baptists didn't kill 3000 Americans silly...

[Yonivore]

baptists didn't kill 3000 Americans silly...
And, Baptist churches are rarely used to foment hatred toward America.

Wait. Does Jeremiah Wright consider his poor excuse for a church, a Baptist church?

[George Gervin's Afro]

And, Baptist churches are rarely used to foment hatred toward America.

Wait. Does Jeremiah Wright consider his poor excuse for a church, a Baptist church?

So are you telling us that America is above reproach and should never be criticized?

[Yonivore]

So are you telling us that America is above reproach and should never be criticized?
Nope.

I'm saying Muslims have a long history of using the cover of religion and the security of their religious institutions to subvert and plot no so religious activities.

I'm also saying they're willing to lie in order to advance their cause.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Nope.

I'm saying Muslims have a long history of using the cover of religion and the security of their religious institutions to subvert and plot no so religious activities.



Couldn't muslims meet an apartment and plan out attacks? Why would they do it at a mosque? Wouldn't that bring more attention to them? If they wanted to remain under cover woudln't the mosque is the last place they would be.... do you ever think yoni?

[Yonivore]

Couldn't muslims meet an apartment and plan out attacks? Why would they do it at a mosque? Wouldn't that bring more attention to them? If they wanted to remain under cover woudln't the mosque is the last place they would be.... do you ever think yoni?
Do you ever think?

Why would it bring more attention? Why would the mosque be the last place terrorists would meet?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Do you ever think?

Why would it bring more attention? Why would the mosque be the last place terrorists would meet?

because according to you that's where they meet under cover.... you're an idiot...



I'm saying Muslims have a long history of using the cover of religion and the security of their religious institutions to subvert and plot no so religious activities.

[Yonivore]

because according to you that's where they meet under cover.... you're an idiot...
Why would Mosques, in which terrorism is being plotted, look any different than mosques in which the Imam is just a hate-spewing anti-American and how are those any different than the ones that are called moderate?

Islam is a fairly exclusive religion. Not many non-muslims are allowed to waltz into their mosques and poke around.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why would Mosques, in which terrorism is being plotted, look any different than mosques in which the Imam is just a hate-spewing anti-American and how are those any different than the ones that are called moderate?

.

I agree... so how do you know the mosque being built is a hate spewing anti- American establishment?


Your argument is that this mosque will be used as a place where they will plot.

You then tell us that you can't tell a good one from a bad one...

yet you aren't complaining about other NY York mosques...


so in essence you don't want the mosque being built at ground zero based on assumptions and paranoia..

[Yonivore]

I agree... so how do you know the mosque being built is a hate spewing anti- American establishment?

Your argument is that this mosque will be used as a place where they will plot.

You then tell us that you can't tell a good one from a bad one...

yet you aren't complaining about other NY York mosques...

so in essence you don't want the mosque being built at ground zero based on assumptions and paranoia..
Based on the insensitivity and the organizers questionable associations and financing.

Common decency would dictate they abandon the charade of building an interfaith bridge of understanding and just abandon the project altogether.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Based on the insensitivity and the organizers questionable associations and financing.

what specifically is insensitve about the mosque being built there? not one of the detractors has answered the question.


Common decency would dictate they abandon the charade of building an interfaith bridge of understanding and just abandon the project altogether.

Or as you mentioned, it may be a place where moderates meet to help build an interfaith bridge of understanding.

[Yonivore]

what specifically is insensitve about the mosque being built there? not one of the detractors has answered the question.
Victims families overwhelmingly oppose the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero. That alone is enough to ascribe insensitivity to their tone-deaf cries of Islamophobia.


Or as you mentioned, it may be a place where moderates meet to help build an interfaith bridge of understanding.
The consequences of it not being what they claim it will be are more damaging than the consequences of it not being built in the first place.

[TeyshaBlue]

Victims families overwhelmingly oppose the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero. That alone is enough to ascribe insensitivity to their tone-deaf cries of Islamophobia.

Then how do you reconcile the support offered to the "mosque" by the same group?



The consequences of it not being what they claim it will be are more damaging than the consequences of it not being built in the first place.


Excellent. The terrorists win. Good job.

[Yonivore]

Then how do you reconcile the support offered to the "mosque" by the same group?
Is it a group that represents an "overwhelming" majority of the victims families? But, even if, I would reconcile that by pointing to the AARP which, even though most of its members opposed the legislation, took a position in favor of Obamacare.


Excellent. The terrorists win. Good job.
Yeah, denying them another Cordoba Mosque at the site of what radical Islam considers a great victory is a "win" for them.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Is it a group that represents an "overwhelming" majority of the victims families? But, even if, I would reconcile that by pointing to the AARP which, even though most of its members opposed the legislation, took a position in favor of Obamacare.


Yeah, denying them another Cordoba Mosque at the site of what radical Islam considers a great victory is a "win" for them.

You just stated that you don't know which mosque is good and which one is bad... how do you know that this one is bad...

you don't think that any muslim who is supporting us doesn't see this as a slap in their face?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Victims families overwhelmingly oppose the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero. .

who do you think the families oppose the mosque being built there? what is it about the mosque?

[Yonivore]

You just stated that you don't know which mosque is good and which one is bad... how do you know that this one is bad...
Like I've said, I don't but, the organizer has questionable associations and questionable financial backing.


you don't think that any muslim who is supporting us doesn't see this as a slap in their face?
I think a reasonable Muslim would, at the very least, acknowledge how the building of a mosque at Ground Zero could cause anguish for the families of the victims of 9-11.

I don't see any reasonable Muslims doing that except, of course, those that oppose the building of the mosque.

Here are some such Muslims:

Mischief in Manhattan (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wcZNOGAS)


We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation

That organizers and proponents of the mosque refuse to even entertain a discussion of these points says more than their pronouncements of "bridge-building," and so on and so forth...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Like I've said, I don't but, the organizer has questionable associations and questionable financial backing.


I think a reasonable Muslim would, at the very least, acknowledge how the building of a mosque at Ground Zero could cause anguish for the families of the victims of 9-11.

I don't see any reasonable Muslims doing that except, of course, those that oppose the building of the mosque.

Here are some such Muslims:

Mischief in Manhattan (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wcZNOGAS)



That organizers and proponents of the mosque refuse to even entertain a discussion of these points says more than their pronouncements of "bridge-building," and so on and so forth...


I think a reasonable Muslim would, at the very least, acknowledge how the building of a mosque at Ground Zero could cause anguish for the families of the victims of 9-11.

Why would the mosque cause anguish? it's a freaking community center.. What I suspect is that they are atributting those who struck on 9/11 to the muslim faith. They don't want a place of worship for other muslims because muslims caused 9/11 to begin with .... The opposition has to do with this being a muslim place of worship... man up and admit it..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Let me put it his way Yoni.. a (person of a certain faith) harms my family... I would not openly object to a place of worship (two blocks from the scene of a crime) that happens to be of the same faith of ther person who harmed my family...

[Yonivore]

Why would the mosque cause anguish? it's a freaking community center..
For the reasons expressed by the Muslims in that article I linked...which you obviously had no time to read.

If other Muslims can come to the conclusion this is nothing less than an act of "fitna" and possibly much more sinister, why should I be faulted for seeing the reasonableness of their argument?

I'm agreeing with other Muslims, after all.


What I suspect is that they are atributting those who struck on 9/11 to the muslim faith. They don't want a place of worship for other muslims because muslims caused 9/11 to begin with .... The opposition has to do with this being a muslim place of worship... man up and admit it..
I think the opposition has to do with well-founded concerns this is not what you believe and their billing it to be.

Man up and admit the argument has merit and should be put to rest by the organizers.

Add a Jewish Synogogue and a non-denominations Christian Church to the "Community Center" if you're really wanting to engage in "interfaith bridge-building." Acknowledge the grief cause by your co-religionists and make a concerted effort to address the concerns of 9-11 victims' families instead of playing the victim yourself, screaming intolerance, and calling the families Islamophobes.

[Yonivore]

Let me put it his way Yoni.. a (person of a certain faith) harms my family... I would not openly object to a place of worship (two blocks from the scene of a crime) that happens to be of the same faith of ther person who harmed my family...
Let me put it this way, if a person harmed your family in the name of an organization that proposes to build a facility on the site where your family was murdered (it was a large crime scene -- the landing gear of one of the planes crashed through the building that sits on the site of the proposed mosque), you'd be peeved.

[DarrinS]

I for one hope they build the mosque. How is it any different from a baptist church being built near ground zero?


Actually, there's not much difference at all. It's widely known that Babtists build enormous churches in areas where there are few practicing Babtists. And, like the Ground Zero mosque developers, the Babtists also bankroll their mega projects with suitcases full of untraceable cash.

[clambake]

how many synagogues and christian churches have a mosgue?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think the opposition has to do with well-founded concerns this is not what you believe and their billing it to be.

Concerns and opinions don't take the place of facts.... prove it. Until you can prove it then there is no reason to not build the mosque there.



Add a Jewish Synogogue and a non-denominations Christian Church to the "Community Center" if you're really wanting to engage in "interfaith bridge-building." Acknowledge the grief cause by your co-religionists and make a concerted effort to address the concerns of 9-11 victims' families instead of playing the victim yourself, screaming intolerance, and calling the families Islamophobes.

Nice litmus test.. the grief is rooted in the fact that muslims perpetuated 9/11... and now some other muslims want a community center that happens to be 2 blocks from ground zero..

[TeyshaBlue]

Is it a group that represents an "overwhelming" majority of the victims families? But, even if, I would reconcile that by pointing to the AARP which, even though most of its members opposed the legislation, took a position in favor of Obamacare.


Yeah, denying them another Cordoba Mosque at the site of what radical Islam considers a great victory is a "win" for them.

Personally, I'd prefer to appeal to the billions of moderate, and sincere Muslims rather than the handful of insane extremeists.

[Yonivore]

Concerns and opinions don't take the place of facts.... prove it. Until you can prove it then there is no reason to not build the mosque there.
It's a matter of -- well, it was a matter of compassion until the Imam decided he would completely ignore the concerns and press forward, enlisting idiots like you to go to bat for them.


Nice litmus test.. the grief is rooted in the fact that muslims perpetuated 9/11... and now some other muslims want a community center that happens to be 2 blocks from ground zero..
You meant perpetrated.

When the Imam makes some gesture that shows he's considering the feelings of the victims of 9-11, I'll listen.

Again, it wasn't two blocks from ground zero. It was involved in the crime.

[Yonivore]

Personally, I'd prefer to appeal to the billions of moderate, and sincere Muslims rather than the handful of insane extremeists.
:lmao "billions of moderate, sincere Muslims."

Outside the United States, you won't run into many of that brand. And, I think inside the United States, there are many that would be less "moderate and sincere" if they thought they could get away with it.

In Washington State and the Detroit area, in particular, you see efforts to institute Sharia Law -- you know -- the kind that condones honor killings and such.

Billions. :lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao "billions of moderate, sincere Muslims."

Outside the United States, you won't run into many of that brand. And, I think inside the United States, there are many that would be less "moderate and sincere" if they thought they could get away with it.

In Washington State and the Detroit area, in particular, you see efforts to institute Sharia Law -- you know -- the kind that condones honor killings and such.

Billions. :lmao

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.

[clambake]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's a matter of -- well, it was a matter of compassion until the Imam decided he would completely ignore the concerns and press forward, enlisting idiots like you to go to bat for them.

It's not up to anyone to justify the location of the building. I don't see this is a muslim exclusive issue.. while you do. if it was any other religion you wouldn't be here bitching about it...





When the Imam makes some gesture that shows he's considering the feelings of the victims of 9-11, I'll listen.

He doesn't have to do anything of the sort. Your side keeps changing the reasons why you don't want it there..


Again, it wasn't two blocks from ground zero. It was involved in the crime

How far is the building from where WTC was?

[TeyshaBlue]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

Maybe that's my problem.....racial perspective. I mean, none of my clients were actually black Muslims.:lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.

he has the right wing blogosphere to inform him..

[George Gervin's Afro]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

a black man who is a christian (wink,wink)

[Yonivore]

It's not up to anyone to justify the location of the building. I don't see this is a muslim exclusive issue.. while you do. if it was any other religion you wouldn't be here bitching about it...
That's not true. If Christians had flown planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jesus Christ, I would see where the victims' families my be peeved at the building of a Christian Church there.

Jewish Synogogue, ditto...


He doesn't have to do anything of the sort. Your side keeps changing the reasons why you don't want it there..
You're right but, if he wants me to listen to him, he does.

There are a multitude of reasons not to build the mosque there...the principle one being it's insensitive to the victims of radical Islam who died there. To not acknowledge that just adds to the disgust.


How far is the building from where WTC was?
As the wheel assembly of a Boeing 747 flies, about 2 seconds.

[George Gervin's Afro]

That's not true. If Christians had flown planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jesus Christ, I would see where the victims' families my be peeved at the building of a Christian Church there.

Jewish Synogogue, ditto...


You're right but, if he wants me to listen to him, he does.

There are a multitude of reasons not to build the mosque there...the principle one being it's insensitive to the victims of radical Islam who died there. To not acknowledge that just adds to the disgust.


As the wheel assembly of a Boeing 747 flies, about 2 seconds.

Since you never get out of there perverse ideology of the right wing blogosphere here's something to chew on:




If Muslims outside America “recognize in the American form of governance a genuine substantive workable expression and model of their centuries-old longing for the kingdom of heaven on earth,” he continues, “they can formulate their understanding of an Islamic state along these lines.”

[Yonivore]

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.
Well, good for you. My family was host to two Muslim men for three years in the 70's. One radicalized and died in some Jihad a few years later. I'm still in contact with the other.

How do you address the Muslims that call this an act of fitna? Would you say they have a "profound ignorance" of their own culture?

Your side of the argument is the one interjecting hyperbole. Any opposition is immediately characterized as "Islamaphobia."

[Yonivore]

Since you never get out of there perverse ideology of the right wing blogosphere here's something to chew on:
So? Who said it and in what context and how much of the Muslim faith does he represent and, finally, does the speaker actually believe what he is saying?

[George Gervin's Afro]

So? Who said it and in what context and how much of the Muslim faith does he represent and, finally, does the speaker actually believe what he is saying?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf

dumb ass...

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, good for you. My family was host to two Muslim men for three years in the 70's. One radicalized and died in some Jihad a few years later. I'm still in contact with the other.

How do you address the Muslims that call this an act of fitna? Would you say they have a "profound ignorance" of their own culture?

Your side of the argument is the one interjecting hyperbole. Any opposition is immediately characterized as "Islamaphobia."

I would sit down with those that consider this an act of fitna. BTW, my understanding of this term is that it has many, many levels of meaning often contextually dependent. I would have to understand at what level of fitna that this scenario fits. I can see some moderate and reflective Muslims reaching this viewpoint. I can't fault them for it. Doesn't necessarily mean I share the viewpoint. Again, since I don't know (and presumably, you don't either) the context of fitna, I can't really address the question realistically. I doubt you could either.

[clambake]

who killed thousands and thousands of innocent muslims after saying he talked to god?

you see, for yoni, this isn't about religion at all.

[Yonivore]

I would sit down with those that consider this an act of fitna.
Something Imam Rauf seems unwilling to do.


BTW, my understanding of this term is that it has many, many levels of meaning often contextually dependent. I would have to understand at what level of fitna that this scenario fits.
The Muslims claiming it is fitna put it in context for you in the article I linked earlier in this thread.


I can see some moderate and reflective Muslims reaching this viewpoint. I can't fault them for it. Doesn't necessarily mean I share the viewpoint.
But would you characterize their opposition as Islamaphobia? I would hope not. And, you recognizing this is a viewpoint that could be reached by moderate and reflective Muslims is more than the organizers and public proponents of the Ground Zero Mosque are willing to do.


Again, since I don't know (and presumably, you don't either) the context of fitna, I can't really address the question realistically. I doubt you could either.
Well, I know the context in which it was used by the Muslims in that article. Read for yourself.

[TeyshaBlue]

Something Imam Rauf seems unwilling to do.


The Muslims claiming it is fitna put it in context for you in the article I linked earlier in this thread.


But would you characterize their opposition as Islamaphobia? I would hope not. And, you recognizing this is a viewpoint that could be reached by moderate and reflective Muslims is more than the organizers and public proponents of the Ground Zero Mosque are willing to do.


Well, I know the context in which it was used by the Muslims in that article. Read for yourself.


Yeah, I've read that letter before. I understand and even sympathize with that viewpoint. I can see where it can make some uncomfortable. The Muslim community is big enough to generate many different viewpoints and that feeling of "cultural liability" ie...complicit by common root association, is not unique to them at all.
To these I would say that I understand their reluctance. However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built, how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?

[clambake]

However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built, how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?

he's not interested in that. he wants war...........of course without personal involvement.

[Blake]

Ran across this looking for something else. Make sure to hit the link for comments -- y'all should enjoy. :downspin:

Pearl's father: Move mosque (http://www.politico.com/blogs/maggiehaberman/0810/Pearls_father_Move_mosque.html)
Maggie Haberman - POLITICO

Judea Pearl, the father of slain journalist Daniel Pearl, says the proposed Islamic center near ground zero should be moved, the Jewish Telegraph agency reports.

“If I were [New York] Mayor Bloomberg I would reassert their right to build the mosque, but I would expend the same energy trying to convince them to put it somewhere else,” he said. “Public reaction tells us that it is not the right time, and that it will create further animosity and division in this country."



Contradicting one's self seems like a waste of energy.

How far away is considered appropriately far for these people?

3 blocks away?

outside of New York?

outside of the country?

[Yonivore]

Yeah, I've read that letter before. I understand and even sympathize with that viewpoint. I can see where it can make some uncomfortable. The Muslim community is big enough to generate many different viewpoints and that feeling of "cultural liability" ie...complicit by common root association, is not unique to them at all.
So, it's not Islamophobic to disagree with the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero? It's not a extreme position to hold?


To these I would say that I understand their reluctance. However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built,...
But, not completely inevitable and, until it is built, why not continue to voice your opposition?


...how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?
Seems like a bridge to cross when it's actually built. But, until the mosque is a reality, those that oppose it should continue to voice that opposition.

[TeyshaBlue]

So, it's not Islamophobic to disagree with the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero? It's not a extreme position to hold? Honestly, Yoni. That's a ridiculous arguement. A Muslim Islamophobe? Have you lost your mind?:lol A Muslim can oppose the placement of a mosque...but he's completely incapable of being an Islamophobe doing it. There's a mutal exclusion built in the definition of Islamophobe.



But, not completely inevitable and, until it is built, why not continue to voice your opposition?
For all intents and purposes, it's a done deal. If you want to continue to voice your opposition, knock yourself out. Use reasoned logic (not Muslim Islamophobes) to support your opposition and you'll dodge the Islamophobe label.



Seems like a bridge to cross when it's actually built. But, until the mosque is a reality, those that oppose it should continue to voice that opposition.

They/you have every right to do that. When the Mosque is completed, it's probably time to stop.

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni knew a Muslim once and therefore can judge every Muslim.

That's like concluding every American is a lying, stupid, ignorant Islamophobe after reading one of Yoni's posts.

[Blake]

Common decency would dictate they abandon the charade of building an interfaith bridge of understanding and just abandon the project altogether.

prove it's a charade.

If you can't, then common decency would dictate that you stfu and let them build...........although you have every legal right not to stfu and continue to look like an Islamophobic idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

Right. If it's a charade, let them expose themselves through their actions.

There is no reason to perpetuate an image of American intolerance and prejudice against Islam worldwide. It undermines our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why do you hate our troops, Yoni?

[nomanches]

Yoni knew a Muslim once and therefore can judge every Muslim.

That's like concluding every American is a lying, stupid, ignorant Islamophobe after reading one of Yoni's posts.

:rollin

These people have every right to build their "terror mosque" wherever they wish. Thankfully, our Constitution has rights that are meant to not only protect the popular, majority opinions, but the unpopular ones as well.

Frankly, I think it would be considered more insulting to have bars, strip joints and porn shops 2 blocks from the ground zero site, than a religious center.

[Blackjack]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Rumsfeld_Origami.gif

:rollin

[jack sommerset]

Backer of NYC mosque gave to Hamas-linked charity

NEW YORK (AP) - One of the investors in a proposed Islamic center near ground zero is a Long Island medical clinic owner whose expressions of sympathy for Palestinians included a donation to a charity later shut down for links to Hamas.

The developer leading the project confirmed Friday that Hisham Elzanaty, 51, is among the members of a real estate partnership that paid $4.8 million last year for the vacant clothing store that is to be torn down and replaced by a cultural center and mosque.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=2031430

[George Gervin's Afro]

Backer of NYC mosque gave to Hamas-linked charity

NEW YORK (AP) - One of the investors in a proposed Islamic center near ground zero is a Long Island medical clinic owner whose expressions of sympathy for Palestinians included a donation to a charity later shut down for links to Hamas.

The developer leading the project confirmed Friday that Hisham Elzanaty, 51, is among the members of a real estate partnership that paid $4.8 million last year for the vacant clothing store that is to be torn down and replaced by a cultural center and mosque.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=2031430

so what jack

[LnGrrrR]

Remember guys, if we don't completely abandon our ideals because there are some butthurt people, then the terrorists will win! They hate us for our freedoms; therefore, we must concede to them by giving away our freedoms! Then the terorrists will no longer be mad at us, and will give us free twinkies.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, good for you. My family was host to two Muslim men for three years in the 70's. One radicalized and died in some Jihad a few years later. I'm still in contact with the other.

See, all you liberals always wants facts and figures. Well I just gave you one. 50% of Muslims will later become radical and go on a Jihad. /yoni

[ChumpDumper]

Backer of NYC mosque gave to Hamas-linked charity

NEW YORK (AP) - One of the investors in a proposed Islamic center near ground zero is a Long Island medical clinic owner whose expressions of sympathy for Palestinians included a donation to a charity later shut down for links to Hamas.

The developer leading the project confirmed Friday that Hisham Elzanaty, 51, is among the members of a real estate partnership that paid $4.8 million last year for the vacant clothing store that is to be torn down and replaced by a cultural center and mosque.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=2031430So that means Fox News is linked to terrorism.

[Cleveland Steamer]

just let people worship. theyre not hurting anybody. the CIA will have this place under the microscope anyways. it won't take them long to spot any shennigans that they might be planning.

[Blake]

just let people worship. theyre not hurting anybody. the CIA will have this place under the microscope anyways. it won't take them long to spot any shennigans that they might be planning.

they might catch kids running instead of walking around the swimming pool.

[boutons_deux]

Concern Is Voiced Over Religious Intolerance

“This is not America,” said Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the emeritus Roman Catholic archbishop of Washington, flanked by three dozen clergy members and religious leaders at a packed news conference at the National Press Club. “America was not built on hate.”

They said they were alarmed that the “anti-Muslim frenzy” and attacks at several mosques had the potential not only to tear apart the country, but also to undermine the reputation of America as a model of religious freedom and diversity.


some groups at the meeting, like the National Council of Churches, an umbrella group representing 100,000 churches, have come out in support of a mosque near the World Trade Center site, said the Rev. Michael Kinnamon, general secretary of the council.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/us/08muslim.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

==========

Ah, no, THIS IS AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL!

The VRWC hate media has won it war to scapegoat every group like illegals, Muslims, etc, like Nazis did to Jews, gays, gypsies in the '30s, excepting the group that is financing the VRWC and mugging America.

The lying hate-mongers at Fox didn't cover this religious tolerance "emergency summit".

[George Gervin's Afro]

Imam: NYC Islamic Center to Include Other Faiths

Published September 08, 2010

NEW YORK – The imam behind the controversial plan to build a mosque and community center near New York's ground zero came out strongly defending the project in an op-ed published Tuesday night on the New York Times website—saying, "Americans must not back away from completion of this project."

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who recently returned from a State Department trip to the Mideast, said the community center will be open to people of all faiths, not just Musilms, and there will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians and Jews. Responding to concerns about how the project is being financed, he said the developers will "clearly identify all of our financial backers."

"My life's work has been focused on building bridges between religious groups and never has that been as important as it is now," Rauf said.

Critics, however, have said the project is at best insensitive to the families of victims of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, carried out by extremists in the name of Islam. Some have also attacked Rauf for past comments in which he was critical of American foreign policy and seemed reluctant to specifically condemn Hamas.

But Rauf said Tuesday that the attention surrounding the plans for the $100 million community center just blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks "reflects the degree to which people care about the very American values under debate: recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship.”

"The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith," he wrote. "These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide."

The comments published in the Times were among Rauf's most extensive on the Islamic center since national leaders began weighing in on the debate earlier this year.

For months, the debate has focused on whether the plans for the center would include a mosque just blocks north of where Islamic extremists destroyed the World Trade Center and killed nearly 2,800 people on Sept. 11, 2001.

Opponents say the mosque should be moved farther away out of sensitivity for the families of 9/11 victims; supporters say religious freedom should be protected.

For the past two months, Rauf has been traveling abroad, including taking a 15-day trip paid for by the U.S. Department of State to promote religious tolerance in the Middle East. While on the trip, he occasionally spoke about the center, mostly to local Arab media. He returned to the United States on Sunday.

In the op-ed piece, he explained his reasons for not speaking out more and sooner, saying he felt it would "not be right to comment from abroad."

"It would be better if I addressed these issues once I returned home to America, and after I could confer with leaders of other faiths who have been deliberating with us over this project," he wrote.

In the nearly 1,000-word op-ed, he outlined his vision for the center, referring to it as a "shared space" for the community that will include "a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks."

"I am very sensitive to the feelings of the families of victims of 9/11, as are my fellow leaders of many faiths," he wrote.

Rauf is one of the directors of the nonprofit organization that was recently formed to raise money for the divisive lower Manhattan project, sometimes known as Park51. The imam referred to the project as the "Cordoba House" in his op-ed piece.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/07/imam-nyc-islamic-community-center-says-include-prayer-spaces-faiths/?test=latestnews

The place will now have a place for christians also... whiners happy now?

[CosmicCowboy]

The place will now have a place for christians also... whiners happy now?

http://emsresponder.com/article/photos/1129908752030_BomberVest.jpg
Welcome Christians!

[George Gervin's Afro]

CosmicCowboy- I consider all Muslims terrorists

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't have a sense of humor. Plus I'm just dumb as a fucking brick. Thats why I make stupid and untrue statements like that about CC

[George Gervin's Afro]

pictures of suicide bombers with the word christian on the bomb vests.. are hilarious...

:lmao

I guess I don't get your humor..

[Yonivore]

The place will now have a place for christians also... whiners happy now?
It's certainly a step in the right direction.

[Blake]

It's certainly a step in the right direction.

our American society as a whole took a step backwards

[Yonivore]

our American society as a whole took a step backwards
Let me know when you are able to tell the difference between radicalized Muslims and so-called "moderate" Muslims just by looking at them or by listening to what they say. 'kay?

This Imam Rauf is still going to have to demonstrate the sincerity of his intentions before many are going to drop their opposition. In fact, it may be too late for him to change many minds.

I remained unconvinced.

[Spurminator]

Of course you do.

[LnGrrrR]

Let me know when you are able to tell the difference between radicalized Muslims and so-called "moderate" Muslims just by looking at them or by listening to what they say. 'kay?

This Imam Rauf is still going to have to demonstrate the sincerity of his intentions before many are going to drop their opposition. In fact, it may be too late for him to change many minds.

I remained unconvinced.

Shorter Yoni: All Muslims are possible terrorists, therefore, I immediately suspect all Muslims of being terrorists.

Similar logic: All white people are possible racists, therefore I immediately suspect all whites of being racists.

After all, you can't tell whether a person is racist just by looking at them or by listening to what they say. Kay?

(Let's throw some DarrinS into this post....)

Let me know when racist white folks killed 3,000 people

[Yonivore]

Shorter Yoni: All Muslims are possible terrorists, therefore, I immediately suspect all Muslims of being terrorists.

Similar logic: All white people are possible racists, therefore I immediately suspect all whites of being racists.

After all, you can't tell whether a person is racist just by looking at them or by listening to what they say. Kay?

(Let's throw some DarrinS into this post....)

Let me know when racist white folks killed 3,000 people
Flaw in your logic; I never said the Imam was a terrorist.

Being a radicalized Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist. You can still sympathize with the ideals and intentions of a terrorist without getting your hands dirty.

[ChumpDumper]

Shortest yoni: I am an Islamophobe.

[LnGrrrR]

Flaw in your logic; I never said the Imam was a terrorist.

Being a radicalized Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist. You can still sympathize with the ideals and intentions of a terrorist without getting your hands dirty.

My mistake. I guess it should have read:

Shorter Yoni: All Muslims are possible terrorist sympathizers, therefore, I immediately suspect all Muslims of being terrorist sympathizers.

[Yonivore]

My mistake. I guess it should have read:

Shorter Yoni: All Muslims are possible terrorist sympathizers, therefore, I immediately suspect all Muslims of being terrorist sympathizers.
That's better.

[Wild Cobra]

My mistake. I guess it should have read:

Shorter Yoni: All Muslims are possible terrorist sympathizers, therefore, I immediately suspect all Muslims of being terrorist sympathizers.
Does that mean that all Christians are possible Timothy McVeigh's, or KKK?

I work with a US Muslim, and know a Syrian very good. They are pretty good people.

[George Gervin's Afro]

so yoni wants to deny the building of the mosque on an unfounded, paranoid hunch:toast

[Yonivore]

so yoni wants to deny the building of the mosque on an unfounded, paranoid hunch:toast
Nowhere have I advocated they be denied. I've merely argued the organizers should accede to the wishes of 9-11 victims (and now over 70%) of Americans and not build it.

And, I've argued why they should not build. I've never argued how they should not be allowed to build.

[Wild Cobra]

so yoni wants to deny the building of the mosque on an unfounded, paranoid hunch:toast
I would like to deny it also, but I have no legal basis. Nor do my wishes follow with my anti-authoritarian attitude.

Yes, I have a bias on the topic, but I acknowledge it.

[LnGrrrR]

Does that mean that all Christians are possible Timothy McVeigh's, or KKK?

I work with a US Muslim, and know a Syrian very good. They are pretty good people.

Did you mean to post that question to Yoni?

[LnGrrrR]

I would like to deny it also, but I have no legal basis. Nor do my wishes follow with my anti-authoritarian attitude.

Yes, I have a bias on the topic, but I acknowledge it.

:tu At least you can recognize your bias. That's more than most.

[Wild Cobra]

Nowhere have I advocated they be denied. I've merely argued the organizers should accede to the wishes of 9-11 victims (and now over 70%) of Americans and not build it.

And, I've argued why they should not build. I've never argued how they should not be allowed to build.
I agree with that. However, they already spent time and money on the project. It now seems to be up to the union labor. If they agree or refuse to take on the task.

[Yonivore]

Does that mean that all Christians are possible Timothy McVeigh's, or KKK?
Why would it? There's no evidence Timothy McVeigh acted out of some religious belief -- particularly one associated with Christianity; and, There are quite a few black Christians. I would think they would eschew an organization that would be so closely associated with racial intolerance it was assumed their members were racists.


I work with a US Muslim, and know a Syrian very good. They are pretty good people.
Anecdotes are just that. How devout are they? Do you discuss their religion with them? How do they square the calls for murder, enslavement, or conversion preached in the Koran?

Would they be glad if Sharia law became the law of our land, like CAIR advocates?

[Wild Cobra]

Why would it? There's no evidence Timothy McVeigh acted out of some religious belief -- particularly one associated with Christianity; and, There are quite a few black Christians. I would think they would eschew an organization that would be so closely associated with racial intolerance it was assumed their members were racists.


Anecdotes are just that. How devout are they? Do you discuss their religion with them? How do they square the calls for murder, enslavement, or conversion preached in the Koran?

Would they be glad if Sharia law became the law of our land, like CAIR advocates?
We could say the same about devout Christians, and their written law. At least I'm willing to keep an open mind to those who are not radicalized.

[Yonivore]

We could say the same about devout Christians, and their written law.
Actually, you can't.


At least I'm willing to keep an open mind to those who are not radicalized.
As am I. There are Muslims who also believe the mosque should not be built and claim it an act of "fitna," rubbing our faces in the Muslim victory at Ground Zero.

I think if there are Muslims that agree with my position, I can't really be faulted for my suspicion.

[LnGrrrR]

Anecdotes are just that. How devout are they? Do you discuss their religion with them? How do they square the calls for murder, enslavement, or conversion preached in the Koran?

How do Christians square the calls of stoning disobedient children preached in the Bible?

[Blake]

That's better.

By admitting you are backwards, you just took a short step in the right direction.

well done. :tu

[Blake]

http://emsresponder.com/article/photos/1129908752030_BomberVest.jpg
Welcome Christians!

That's gotta be an Abercrombie and Fitch knock off

[ChumpDumper]

Does that mean that all Christians are possible Timothy McVeigh's, or KKK?

I work with a US Muslim, and know a Syrian very good. They are pretty good people.Pretty good POTENTIAL TERRORIST SYMPATHIZERS you mean.

[Blake]

As am I. There are Muslims who also believe the mosque should not be built and claim it an act of "fitna," rubbing our faces in the Muslim victory at Ground Zero.

I think if there are Muslims that agree with my position, I can't really be faulted for my suspicion.

so now that these Muslims have high fived each other, claiming "fitna", what is their next move?

Actually, what is their ultimate goal?

[Galileo]

KSM Conspiracy Charges Analyzed and Debunked
Don’t believe the charges until you’ve read the charge sheet
http://www.truthjihad.com/ksm.htm

[Darrin]

"As Americans we are not — and never will be — at war with Islam," President (Obama) said. "It was not a religion that attacked us that September day — it was al-Qaida, a sorry band of men which perverts religion."


"Americans who mistreat Muslims should be ashamed,"...(P)resident Bush said in remarks at the Islamic Center in the nation's capital. "In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect."

The United States counts millions of Muslims amongst its citizens, Bush said, and they are making "an incredibly valuable contribution to our country."

"Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shop keepers, moms and dads, and they need to be treated with respect."

Bush said the "the face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."

You ignorant bastards. We could have said something very powerful about our nation, instead, we use this moment to call people traitors in some flash of anti-Islamic sentiment.