Who's the greater player, Kobe Bryant or John Havlicek?

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Yes, I know there is a sticky for Kobe, and I posted this yesterday in there, no replies. That thread has turned into a top 10 list discussion. this is a fairly interesting topic because Bryant's and Havlicek's careers have many striking similarities.

Here's my original post, slightly amended for 1974 and 1976 notes..


No one is going to agree on a top 10, but that's ok. However, making a list without seeing players play usually means you are influenced by what other people say, not what you observed. I am one of the few people here old enough to have seen Russell play and there is a lengthy discussion starting with post 211 here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160949&page=9

Essentially I note that way back then Russell wasn't perceived as great as he is today. I also point out that Russell had more help on his 11 titles in 13 years than any player in NBA history with 4 teammates from the NBA top 50 at 50 years list, and an additional 4 more hall of famers. No wonder they won all those years. Those repliers that have seen the discussion have posted it has intrigued them.

I have never believed Russell is top 10 and it's probably in Spurs fans favor to agree with this. The reason's are it's consistent with the argument to place Tim ahead of Kobe because Kobe had help getting his titles. The next reason is, it moves Tim up a notch and allows him to challenge more top 10 candidates. The final reason is acknowledging Russell for 11 rings with a lot of help validates Kobes 5 rings as greater than tim's 4. There is a lot of discussion about this in that thread, and even Jamstone makes a pretty valid point, that Ben Wallace could be exchanged for Russell without batting an eyelash. Is Ben Wallace a top 10 player? No, he's not. There are some other notes about players who most leave off their top 10 with reasons why they remain in the discussion.

With the above in mind, I discovered a whole new topic for comparison, Kobe Bryant versus John Havlicek. I showed why Hondo may be top 10 in that thread above, and I even think he should be higher than Russell. However, the similarities of Russell/Havlicek are eerily similar to Shaq/Kobe. We know the latter story, let's look at the Russell/Havlicek facts:

1) Havlicek won 6 rings with Russell, coming off the bench as the 6th man.
2) Russell left in 1969 and the Celtics missed the playoffs for 2 years, and rebuilt around Havlicek in the draft, getting JoJo White and Dave Cowens.
3) 1972 Boston had the best record in the east, but were upset in the ECF by the New York Knicks playing without Willis Reed.
4) 1973 Boston posted the 3rd best, at that time, regular season mark of 68-14. They won all 4 games against the defending champion Lakers. They were beaten in 7 games by the Knicks, who had Reed back. New York then beat the Lakers.
5) 1974 Beat Knicks in ECF, Reed out injured. Led by finals MVP Havlicek, Boston defeated The Bucks (Kareem and Oscar Robertson) for the NBA title, without HCA in 7 games. Granted, Milwaukke was without Lucius Allen, and Oscar Robertson was playing hurt (and retired). Howver, they survived two home losses by beating the Bucks 3 times in Milwaukee.
1975) Boston had the best record in the east but were upset in the ECF by Washington.
1976) Boston won the finals in an exciting series against Phoenix who had defeated defending champion Golden State, (who also had the best record) in 7 games in the WCF. JoJo White finals MVP.
1977) Boston began their decline and lost to the Sixers in the second round, who were rejuvnated with Dr. J.
1978) Boston fell from the playoffs and Havlicek retired when season ended.

Havlicek has just a few more career points than Kobe. He led his team to two titles and several deep playoff runs, but missed the playoffs 3 times. Havlicek led that team from 1970-1978, 9 seasons. Kobe has led his for 6. Who is greater between the two, Havlicek or Bryant?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/havlijo01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

[Ashy Larry]

Probably Bean. Dude is already considered the second greatest two guard of all-time by many people. Can't say that about Hondo even though he's had a tremendous career. Those 60's Celtic squad ruined a lot of sleep time for my pops and grandfather.

The seventies was the one decade that really didn't have that kick ass dynasty. Many teams won the championship.

[JamStone]

A more fair comparison of two players than a lot of people will admit. I think most people will dismiss it rather quickly as an easy answer before really examining the two careers.

Not having watched Hondo myself, I do know he was regarded as one of the best all around players during his career, and up there as one of the best guards in the league, right with Oscar and Jerry. What's so impressive was Hondo's durability throughout his 16 year career. 11 of those 16 seasons, he played at least 80 games. Only once did he play fewer than 75 games in a season, and that time it was 71 games. By his second year on a stacked Celtics team, he was the leading scorer. He and Sam Jones went back and forth for his earlier years as the team's leading scorer but Hondo was right up there as one of the main go-to guys on offense, very early on. By the time Russell retired, Hondo frequently led the team in scoring, assists, and rebounding until Dave Cowens and subsequently Silas became the main rebounders. And by his last season, at age 37/38 in a growing athletic league, he was still playing 34 minutes a game and putting up 16/4/4... at age 37 and 38.

After Oscar, he was probably the most versatile and well rounded guard of his era, plus he was an all league defender and considered an extremely clutch shooter. Probably lost in the archives of NBA history a little bit because of the team that he played for and because of the greatness of guys like Oscar and Jerry. Again, I wasn't around back then so I wasn't following the league and history does tend to skew facts sometimes. Oscar is lauded for his triple double season and Jerry is forever tattooed as "the logo." Maybe Havlicek was actually considered better or at least as good as those two. Someone around back then might be able to tell us.

It's probably closer that a lot of people think. But a lot if not most people already regard Kobe better than Oscar and Jerry. So if Hondo was behind those two, it only makes sense that Kobe would be better than Havlicek as well. That's where I don't know the history well enough. I do think while definitely considered "one" of the best players in the league during his career, he was never considered "the best" player in the league. While some try to discredit Kobe for a lot of things, there were several years in between Shaq's dominance, Duncan's MVP seasons and LeBron's rise as the best player in the league where Kobe was considered "the best" player in the league. You can argue how long he was considered it, but he was in fact considered as such for at least some time. And Kobe has a league MVP to back it up. Along with the two Finals MVPs, I think that carries the most weight to make the distinction and give Kobe the edge.

But I like the comparison.

[Amaso]

lol, are you serious my boy?

[lefty]

Hondo FTW






















:D

[lefty]

2 different types of players


Kobe makes clutch shots




Hondo makes clutch plays: D, steal, rebound, basket



At the end, I think Hondo is closer to Manu than he is to Kobe

[namlook]

2 different types of players

Kobe makes clutch shots

Hondo makes clutch plays: D, steal, rebound, basket

At the end, I think Hondo is closer to Manu than he is to Kobe

Kobe's clutch block of 7 footer Sabonis on game winning shot attempt in WCF.
I-xmHcgoTdw

And just for fun:

Kobe Bryant Block Party 2007-2009
emK6uLpnlFk

[TinTin]

Kobe's clutch block of 7 footer Sabonis on game winning shot attempt in WCF.
I-xmHcgoTdw

And just for fun:

Kobe Bryant Block Party 2007-2009
emK6uLpnlFk

This obviously seals the argument

[lefty]

Kobe's clutch block of 7 footer Sabonis on game winning shot attempt in WCF.
I-xmHcgoTdw

And just for fun:

Kobe Bryant Block Party 2007-2009
emK6uLpnlFk

Not bad not bad



Not enough non-shooting plays in the dying seconds though

[ezau]

Havlicek is a lot more like Manu than Kobe.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Hondo's problem was that he peaked in probably the least popular Celtics/NBA era. The 70s was the parity decade. No one really dominated like in every other decade and the NBA was just kind of meh. The ABA and it's history is more interesting to be honest. Havlicek was a great athlete. One of the best in NBA's history. Could run and jump like a deer and play tons of minutes. He was a guard forward at 6'7" (playing height, back then the players were listed without shoes, so you'll see him listed at 6'5" some places), and he had the all around game, he just played in the wrong time.

From a franchise point of view, Hondo came along at the perfect time for Boston IMO. Cousy and Sharman had the front end of the Russell era covered, and Hondo collected enough experience to help them through their last 3 titles, which I noted in discussion linked above in my original post, were their most impressive. If Hondo came in with Cowens and White, he may have been to green to help them win those 70's titles. They faded when he did as it was. Hondo could have helped Bird in the early 80's maybe, but by 1981, Bird had most of his 80's core together.

As Jamstone noted, most people here don't know much about Hondo. Happy to see that some do. Havlicek may or may not be top 10, but he is definitely top 20, better than Bill Russell, and worthy of discussion.

[dbestpro]

Ask the question in 20 years. It is never fair to compare a player from yester year to a guy who is still playing today.

[General Virtue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD6F5jY_kgs

[Spurtacular]

4) 1973 Boston posted the 3rd best, at that time, regular season mark of 68-14. They won all 4 games against the defending champion Lakers. They were beaten in 7 games by the Knicks, who had Reed back. New York then beat the Lakers.


Havlicek hurt his shoulder in Game 3 of that series and was not the same player. He scored 15 combined points in Game 6 and 7. Sad when freak injuries cost superior teams rings.

[Fabbs]

Kobe's clutch block of 7 footer Sabonis on game winning shot attempt in WCF.
I-xmHcgoTdw
Fouled twice.

:lol Laker Phaggots never knowing what it's like to earn a legit Championship.

[Spurtacular]

Fouled twice.

:lol Laker Phaggots never knowing what it's like to earn a legit Championship.

Yea, I was thinking that Harper had to have raked him across the arm. Kobe probably got him with the body, too.

Classic Monkeyball.

[Play Boban]

Pistol Pete was better than LeBron

[lefty]

Pistol Pete was better than LeBron
Boban is better than Lebron

[rascal]

Bryant

[DMC]

Pretty sure John was inducted into the HOF. Kobe, not so much.

[Play Boban]

Boban is better than Lebron
Trooth nook

[Spurtacular]

Boban is better than Lebron

It's a shame Boban didn't come along two or three decades sooner.