DarrinS: Why You Lie? ...Most BP Oil Still Pollutes the Gulf

[Parker2112]

Most BP Oil Still Pollutes the Gulf, Scientists Conclude



Two new analyses report that huge plumes of oil generated by the BP spill continue to roam deep within the Gulf of Mexico and appear disturbingly stable. Although some natural breakdown of hydrocarbons in the oil is underway, both new analyses report evidence that this biodegradation is very slow.



These findings contradict an Aug. 2 report by the National Incident Command, a largely federal group that has been coordinating management and cleanup of the BP Deepwater Horizon blowout. An estimated 4.9 million barrels of oil (almost 206 million gallons) escaped from the damaged well before it was successfully capped on July 15. Some 17 percent was captured before it fouled the water, the NIC reports.
But in testimony August 19 before the House Subcommittee on Energy and Environment, Ian MacDonald of Florida State University in Tallahassee cited data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration that he said showed only 10 percent of the spewed BP oil “was actually removed from the ocean” and that only “a fraction, perhaps 10 percent, will have evaporated.” The remaining oil still fouls the Gulf, he said.
New analyses by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts and the Georgia Sea Grant at the University of Georgia in Athens also suggest that much of the BP oil has not been behaving as scientists would have expected.

For instance, in a paper online in Science August 19 the Woods Hole team describes data from a June cruise that mapped a huge plume of diffuse hydrocarbons more than 35 kilometers long. As this cloud of oil flowed roughly 1,100 meters below the surface, it maintained a configuration that was roughly 200 meters high, up to 2 kilometers wide and traveling at about 6.5 kilometers per day. Over the entire span of the plume studied, the cloud’s height “only varied by tens of meters,” notes Woods Hole team leader Richard Camilli.

Researchers cruising the Gulf in early June aboard a NOAA ship, the Gordon Gunter, also found evidence of that hydrocarbon plume. Like the Woods Hole team, these scientists collected much of their data using an autonomous underwater vehicle, in this case a torpedo-like chemical sensing laboratory developed by the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute.

“We were in the same area as the Woods Hole group,” notes John Ryan of MBARI, and similarly found a hydrocarbon plume below 1,000 meters.
“We’re not sure why this plume set up at this depth,” says Camilli, “but it appears to have persisted for at least several weeks or months. And it appears very stable, but we really don’t know why yet.”

“I’m not shocked, but actually pleasantly surprised [by these data],” says Roberto Camassa, who directs the Center for Interdisciplinary Applied Mathematics at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In the laboratory, this fluid dynamicist and his colleagues have been studying oil plume formation. He says the buildup of stable deep plumes make sense, based on the evolving science of interactions between high-velocity oil and cold, slow-moving waters.

“In our lab experiments, things mainly get trapped based on their density,” Camassa observes. “So I would expect to find a somewhat sharp transition in density down there, and with such stratification the oil could persist for a long, long time.”

Oil in the plume hasn’t ascended to the surface, he explains, because if droplets are small enough they become neutrally buoyant and move with the water. Camassa’s lab studies suggest that the high-velocity spray of oil from the BP blowout would essentially have atomized the crude oil into microdroplets.

New modeling analyses of the BP oil spill by researchers at NOAA’s Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory at Princeton University also largely predict what the WHOI team has just reported, notes Robert Hallberg of NOAA.

His group’s findings — due to be published soon in Geophysical Research Letters — forecast not only that much of the oil spewed at great depth will break up into small particles that quickly become neutrally buoyant, but also that the breakdown of oil by microbes will proceed very slowly. The bugs will eventually eat the hydrocarbons, but temperature can dictate how quickly they scarf oil down. “It’s analogous to leaving a sandwich on the counter versus putting it in the refrigerator,” Halberg says.

The NOAA-Princeton team’s computer analyses also suggest why deep-sea plumes can hang around for months or longer. Currents at great depths, two-thirds of a mile below the surface, move far more slowly than those near shorelines or the surface. So don’t expect deep hydrocarbon plumes to swoosh rapidly out into the Atlantic, Hallberg says. They’re more likely to slosh back and forth with the tides and in response to local eddies. Indeed, his group’s modeling data suggest “they will stay very much confined — within, say, about 100 kilometers of the spill site.”

He predicts that if the Woods Hole team resurveyed the plume site three to nine months from now, it would likely still find much of the oil there. By then, microbes may be dining on the hydrocarbons in earnest, locally drawing down oxygen levels. In the deep ocean, Hallberg notes, oxygen isn’t replenished quickly, so any losses tend to accumulate over time. "According to our simulations, these [very low oxygen] areas will be peaking in October," he says, potentially making some portions of the northern Gulf inhospitable to sea life.

The Woods Hole team wouldn’t speculate about how much of BP’s oil and methane has ended up in the plume they measured, or how many similar plumes might be snaking along the Gulf’s seafloor. But an August 17 report by the University of Georgia in Athens and Georgia Sea Grant attempts just that. The Georgia analysis estimates that between 70 and 79 percent of the BP oil is still in the water.

A panel of experts convened by the Georgia team calculated what share of subsurface BP oil has likely degraded and now estimates it could be just “8 percent of the total oil released into the water.”

Oil that has resisted dispersion and evaporation likely will “remain potentially harmful for decades,” MacDonald said at the congressional hearing, adding: “I expect the hydrocarbon imprint of the BP discharge will be detectable in the marine environment for the rest of my life.”

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/08/20/most-bp-oil-still-pollutes-the-gulf-scientists-conclude.html?PageNr=1

[Yonivore]

You can find analysis to support any position; there are scientists willing to lie for a political narrative (see "global war... er... climate change") ...let's see if the oil - if it's actually present in the quantities claimed - actually causes a problem before it completely dissipates.

And, if DarrinS lies, so does the Obama administration -- it was they that said 75% of the oil was gone.

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni thought Bush was lying when he said Saddam had no WMDs.

[Wild Cobra]

Parker.

I can't be calling both you and Bouton's "Chicken Little." I guess I'll have a tough choice these next few days...

Who will win the title?

[Parker2112]

And, if DarrinS lies, so does the Obama administration -- it was they that said 75% of the oil was gone.


Obama has botched this whole damn thing.

And yeah...his admin is lying for political gain/playing damage control.

[Yonivore]

Obama has botched this whole damn thing.

And yeah...his admin is lying for political gain/playing damage control.
Meh, wake me when the oil causes a problem commensurate with all the whining...or, better, when the oil causes a problem commensurate with those caused by the administration's response to the oil spill.

[DMX7]

Meh, wake me when the oil causes a problem commensurate with all the whining...

You Repugs are the scum of the Earth. What pathetic tools you are; now reduced to propaganda machines for a company that's killed its own workers in negligence (multiple times) and dumped millions of gallons of oil into our gulf. BP ABSOLUTELY OWNS YOU. Dance, peasant, dance!

[clambake]

Parker.

I can't be calling both you and Bouton's "Chicken Little." I guess I'll have a tough choice these next few days...

Who will win the title?

welfare babies aren't allowed choices.

[Parker2112]

Meh, wake me when the oil causes a problem commensurate with all the whining...or, better, when the oil causes a problem commensurate with those caused by the administration's response to the oil spill.

youre only interested in the partisan battle. you dont gve a damn about the damage to the gulf, the crush of big gov/big oil/big corps, the lies propogated by your elected officials, the state of our environment for future generations, etc. your one of the many sheep.

[ChumpDumper]

Meh, wake me when alleged WMDs cause a problem commensurate with all the whining...or, better, when the alleged WMDs cause a problem commensurate with those caused by the Bush administration's response to the alleged WMDs.Will do.

[Wild Cobra]

welfare babies aren't allowed choices.
I have yet to figure out how someone who claims to be so successful can be so stupid.

Did you inherit all your money?

[DarrinS]

For instance, in a paper online in Science August 19 the Woods Hole team describes data from a June cruise that mapped a huge plume of diffuse hydrocarbons more than 35 kilometers long.




Yawn. Yet another reporting of the 22 mile long hydrocarbon plume spotted in June.

Mmkay, thanks again.

[DarrinS]

Thunder Bay (1953)

Great movie

umKPXd7Pw0o

[CosmicCowboy]

You Repugs are the scum of the Earth. What pathetic tools you are; now reduced to propaganda machines for a company that's killed its own workers in negligence (multiple times) and dumped millions of gallons of oil into our gulf. BP ABSOLUTELY OWNS YOU. Dance, peasant, dance!

:lmao

Last time I checked it was a democratic administration saying everything was hunky dory.

And the Woods Hole data was from JUNE.

[Goran Dragic]

I smell ######!

[DarrinS]

I can't debate you using my brain, so I'll just play the tired race card.

[Goran Dragic]

Me and CosmicCowboy take everything on the internet way too serious!

[CosmicCowboy]

*yawn*


This message is hidden because Goran Dragic is on your ignore list.

[Drachen]

Meh, wake me when the oil causes a problem commensurate with all the whining...or, better, when the oil causes a problem commensurate with those caused by the administration's response to the oil spill.

Wouldn't it be prudent to try and fix the problem before it causes too much of a disaster? The wait and see approach is pretty much what started this whole mess in the first place. (i.e. we can do it this way, cut corners, and save money, because hey, nothing bad has happened ye- KA BOOM)

[MannyIsGod]

Did Darrin just mock someone else for using the race card? Does anyone here ever pull the race card faster than Darrin?

[DarrinS]

Did Darrin just mock someone else for using the race card? Does anyone here ever pull the race card faster than Darrin?


Mocking those that play the race card is not the same as playing the race card, but nice try.

[MannyIsGod]

Actually in most of the threads you bring it up in no one has even mentioned race. You simply bust it out like a rapid fire inflatable strawman ready to go.

When you are the introducer of race into an argument you most certainly are pulling the race card.

[DarrinS]

Actually in most of the threads you bring it up in no one has even mentioned race. You simply bust it out like a rapid fire inflatable strawman ready to go.

When you are the introducer of race into an argument you most certainly are pulling the race card.


Pointing out the hypocrisy of the left's use of racism, group politics, and class warfare is not playing the race card.

[MannyIsGod]

Pointing out the hypocrisy of the left's use of racism, group politics, and class warfare is not playing the race card.

Bringing up race where no one else has is playing the race card.

[DarrinS]

Bringing up race where no one else has is playing the race card.


An example: Pointing out how the left whitewashes black on hispanic 'bias' crime is showing how they are hypocrites. I'm not calling lefties biggots or racists. I guess you can't tell the difference.

[LnGrrrR]

An example: Pointing out how the left whitewashes black on hispanic 'bias' crime is showing how they are hypocrites. I'm not calling lefties biggots or racists. I guess you can't tell the difference.

Uhm... you pointing out that the left does X thing when it comes to blacks, but Y thing when it comes to whites, is ASSUREDLY bringing up race, and implicitly calling the lefties racist by not using the same standard for X and Y. That's pretty obvious.

Edit: Meant "whites" instead of "blacks" for Y.

[MannyIsGod]

Uhm... you pointing out that the left does X thing when it comes to blacks, but Y thing when it comes to blacks, is ASSUREDLY bringing up race, and implicitly calling the lefties racist by not using the same standard for X and Y. That's pretty obvious.

Darrin is a little slow.

[DarrinS]

Uhm... you pointing out that the left does X thing when it comes to blacks, but Y thing when it comes to blacks, is ASSUREDLY bringing up race, and implicitly calling the lefties racist by not using the same standard for X and Y. That's pretty obvious.


That doesn't even make sense.

[SnakeBoy]

youre only interested in the partisan battle. you dont gve a damn about the damage to the gulf, the crush of big gov/big oil/big corps, the lies propogated by your elected officials, the state of our environment for future generations, etc. your one of the many sheep.

Interesting, you start a thread with the sole purpose of having a partisan battle and then accuse others of being sheep who are only interested in a partisan battle.

Since you "care" about the gulf why don't you inform us of exactly what damage is being done by these deep water plumes of oil and what exactly should be done about them.

[Winehole23]

Interesting, you start a thread with the sole purpose of having a partisan battle and then accuse others of being sheep who are only interested in a partisan battle.100% accurate. Parker lays his snares badly.

[Winehole23]

Calling out the poster in the banner is bush. JMO.

[Winehole23]

And BTW, DarrinS will never, never hold up his end of the conversation.

[Winehole23]

(Well, almost never. DarrinS actually got chatty once or twice that I can recall, so maybe I should shade that a bit...)

[Winehole23]

Prefers the snide drive by, then ducks and hides.

[DarrinS]

Prefers the snide drive by, then ducks and hides.


WH, you ever seen Thunder Bay?

I like almost every Jimmy Stewart movie.

[Winehole23]

http://www.musicman.com/00pic/09.jpg

[Winehole23]

No.

[DarrinS]

No.


What's that you posted above. I just see a red "x".

[Winehole23]

Mexican poster of Thunder Bay. <<Borrasca en el Puerto.>>

[DarrinS]

Mexican poster of Thunder Bay. <<Borrasca en el Puerto.>>


<removed>

Man, that pic doesn't want to be hot-linked.

[Winehole23]

just image search it if you're so curious.

[LnGrrrR]

That doesn't even make sense.

Replace "blacks" with "whites" in the second part of that. You probably could have reasoned that out using context clues, but maybe I'm giving you too much credit.

[Winehole23]

(burp)

[Winehole23]

DarrinS sometimes feigns perplexity. It is a tiresome conceit.

[DarrinS]

Replace "blacks" with "whites" in the second part of that. You probably could have reasoned that out using context clues, but maybe I'm giving you too much credit.



I think the left uses race as a weapon and I'm not afraid to point that out.

Do you think local Democratic politicians, who have dominated the control of our major urban areas over the past several decades, have helped the plight of inner-city blacks?

BTW, Detroit says hello.

[MannyIsGod]

Everyone wave to Darrin and his use of the race card.

[DarrinS]

Everyone wave to Darrin and his use of the race card.


I disagree with you, but I don't think you are a racist. See, it's not hard.

[MannyIsGod]

When did I say you were a racist because you didn't agree with me? Is that straw I see?

[LnGrrrR]

I think the left uses race as a weapon and I'm not afraid to point that out.

Do you think local Democratic politicians, who have dominated the control of our major urban areas over the past several decades, have helped the plight of inner-city blacks?

BTW, Detroit says hello.

DarrinS, do you think local Republican politicians, who have dominated rural and suburban areas over the past several decades, have helped the plight of blacks?

BTW, the South says hello.

[DarrinS]

DarrinS, do you think local Republican politicians, who have dominated rural and suburban areas over the past several decades, have helped the plight of blacks?

BTW, the South says hello.


If you think a job is better than a hand out, then yes. If you think values that keep two parents in the house are better than those that foster single-parent households, then yes.

[DarrinS]

Lngrrr,

What predominantly black areas of the South are governed by a Republican?

[Parker2112]

Interesting, you start a thread with the sole purpose of having a partisan battle and then accuse others of being sheep who are only interested in a partisan battle.

Since you "care" about the gulf why don't you inform us of exactly what damage is being done by these deep water plumes of oil and what exactly should be done about them.


100% accurate. Parker lays his snares badly.

The snare may be laid badly, but as far as I'm concerned, this is not a partisan issue. This issue revolves around science and the environment.

I dont give a damn how any of you fall on the issue...you start spreading lies and misinformation (INCLUDING OBAMA ADMIN) and I see the need to respond with the other side...and yes I have major problems with the Obama Admins reponse, and have said so.

How is it partisan when Im calling out Repugs and Dems on this?

Snake and WH, you're unified in error. :king

[Winehole23]

Snake and WH, you're unified in error. :kingDo you mind pointing out the error? Neither one of us called you a partisan.

[LnGrrrR]

Lngrrr,

What predominantly black areas of the South are governed by a Republican?

Did I mention predominantly? Nope, sure didn't.

[LnGrrrR]

If you think a job is better than a hand out, then yes. If you think values that keep two parents in the house are better than those that foster single-parent households, then yes.

If you think you can win an argument using strawmen, then yes. If you think you can win by actually responding to what I said, then no.

Tell me, what great strides have blacks made in areas not dominated by Democrats? Surely the gains are significant. (I'll even avoid the obvious fact that there cuold be a multitude of factors affecting inner-city youth that are independent of government, or even making you show proof that they're not better off, because frankly I don't think you can handle showing actual work or focusing on more than one strawman at a time.)

[CosmicCowboy]

Tell me, what great strides have blacks made in areas not dominated by Democrats?

*ooh,ooh,ooh waving hand in back of class...*

The Military?

[LnGrrrR]

*ooh,ooh,ooh waving hand in back of class...*

The Military?

:lol I meant geographic areas, not organizations. Using organizations is cheating, because the military is (theoretically) non-partisan.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.truth-out.org/files/images/082710-1.jpg

"By our estimates there were thousands - and I'm talking about 5,000 to 15,000 - dead fish," St. Bernard Parish President Craig Taffaro told reporters. "Different species were found dead, including crabs, sting rays, eel, drum, speckled trout, red fish, you name it, included in that kill."

The next day, a thick, orange substance with tar balls and a "strong diesel smell" was discovered around Grassy Island, near the fish kill, according to a news release.

http://www.truth-out.org/fish-kills-worry-gulf-scientists-fishers-environmentalists62712?print

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.truth-out.org/files/images/082710-1.jpg

"By our estimates there were thousands - and I'm talking about 5,000 to 15,000 - dead fish," St. Bernard Parish President Craig Taffaro told reporters. "Different species were found dead, including crabs, sting rays, eel, drum, speckled trout, red fish, you name it, included in that kill."

The next day, a thick, orange substance with tar balls and a "strong diesel smell" was discovered around Grassy Island, near the fish kill, according to a news release.

http://www.truth-out.org/fish-kills-worry-gulf-scientists-fishers-environmentalists62712?print
Sounds like a ship leaked fuel. Crude oil doesn't smell like diesel, or am I wrong?

[boutons_deux]

Why do even bother to ask if you are wrong?

In a tiny way you're right. Oil and chemical industries have so polluted LA and Gulf Coast for so long that it may be hard to tie an incident dead animals to Corexit and BP. But it sure sounds these locals think this kill is unusual. But I'd trust WC spin over the locals' knowledge and testimony any day.

[Wild Cobra]

Why do even bother to ask if you are wrong?

In a tiny way you're right. Oil and chemical industries have so polluted LA and Gulf Coast for so long that it may be hard to tie an incident dead animals to Corexit and BP. But it sure sounds these locals think this kill is unusual. But I'd trust WC spin over the locals' knowledge and testimony any day.
I'm not spinning anything. I simply think that BP is just the newest punching bag, and not at fault for all that occurs. I'm surprised you acknowledged pollutants are normal. Good for you.

[Parker2112]

sounds like a ship leaked fuel. Crude oil doesn't smell like diesel, or am i wrong?

whatacrockofshit.

[Wild Cobra]

whatacrockofshit.
Are you saying that some thing that could actually happen, is impossible because, you want to blame BP?

I don't know how likely a boat spill would be, but you act as if you would deny it if it were proven true.

[CuckingFunt]

I'm not spinning anything. I simply think that BP is just the newest punching bag, and not at fault for all that occurs. I'm surprised you acknowledged pollutants are normal. Good for you.

Normal doesn't mean acceptable.

[CosmicCowboy]

As someone who has spent hundreds of hours kayaking in salt water estuaries dead fish are quite common and a normal daily occurrence. After all, they have a life cycle just like anything else, get sick, etc. and they don't bury their dead. Because of the natural gases generated in the decomposition process dead fish float and eventually drift to shore. It's hardly a surprise that when hundreds of people are actively looking for dead fish that they find some.

[CosmicCowboy]

Naturally occurring fish kills, especially this time of year, are quite common. I have personally seen thousands of fish washed up on the shore in big stinking piles. They were caused naturally by algae blooms from the warm waters. The fact that a "scientist" wouldn't even MENTION that algae blooms have been occurring naturally year after year before the oil spill immediately sets off alarm bells with me that he is working an agenda and not being an objective scientist.

[Yonivore]

If you think you can win an argument using strawmen, then yes. If you think you can win by actually responding to what I said, then no.

Tell me, what great strides have blacks made in areas not dominated by Democrats?
Hmmm....let's see.

Sitting Supreme Court Justice. That would indicate great strides in jurisprudence.

I don't know the statistics but, I'm certain business ownership and executive office occupancy are way up.

There's a black at the top of the RNC (not exactly an organization "dominated by Democrats.")

I'll tell you what. Name an area of society where blacks are still unable to participate at the highest levels.


Surely the gains are significant. (I'll even avoid the obvious fact that there cuold be a multitude of factors affecting inner-city youth that are independent of government, or even making you show proof that they're not better off, because frankly I don't think you can handle showing actual work or focusing on more than one strawman at a time.)
Yes, indeed. The gains have been significant over the past 50 years. I think Martin Luther King would be proud while, at the same time, going full Bill Cosby on his own racial counter-parts.

He would be ashamed of what Jesse Jackson's become.

[Wild Cobra]

Naturally occurring fish kills, especially this time of year, are quite common. I have personally seen thousands of fish washed up on the shore in big stinking piles. They were caused naturally by algae blooms from the warm waters. The fact that a "scientist" wouldn't even MENTION that algae blooms have been occurring naturally year after year before the oil spill immediately sets off alarm bells with me that he is working an agenda and not being an objective scientist.
I was thinking something similar, only I don't have a causal relationship to cite

I don't know how many times I've gone to the Oregon coast, and seen countless dead sea life washed ashore. Now we have no oil rigs on the Oregon coast, unless they are super secret.

Other things do kill sealife, in mass.

[Yonivore]

5-15,000 dead fish? That's fewer than the number of people who lost their jobs because of Obama's moratorium.

[DMX7]

5-15,000 dead fish? That's fewer than the number of people who lost their jobs because of Obama's moratorium.

lol, you didn't even know what the moratorium covered. :lol

Parade your ignorance, peasant. You're my little jester.

[Parker2112]

Naturally occurring fish kills, especially this time of year, are quite common. I have personally seen thousands of fish washed up on the shore in big stinking piles. They were caused naturally by algae blooms from the warm waters. The fact that a "scientist" wouldn't even MENTION that algae blooms have been occurring naturally year after year before the oil spill immediately sets off alarm bells with me that he is working an agenda and not being an objective scientist.

those algae blooms in the gulf arent "naturally occuring"

do some homework.

they are a result of the fertilizers that wash down the mississippi

they have resulted in the "dead zones" we already had in the Gulf. Now the dispersants and the oil are doing further damage.

[Parker2112]

I was thinking something similar, only I don't have a causal relationship to cite

I don't know how many times I've gone to the Oregon coast, and seen countless dead sea life washed ashore. Now we have no oil rigs on the Oregon coast, unless they are super secret.

Other things do kill sealife, in mass.

global warming is causing problems on the oregon coast. abnormally hot top watersmean the oceans arent circulating enough to oxygenate the water off the coast there.

thats why Oregons salmon population is about to be caput too.

[Parker2112]

5-15,000 dead fish? That's fewer than the number of people who lost their jobs because of Obama's moratorium.

and those dead fish arent spelling doom for the fishing industry? you fuggin idiot

[Parker2112]

Are you saying that some thing that could actually happen, is impossible because, you want to blame BP?

I don't know how likely a boat spill would be, but you act as if you would deny it if it were proven true.

CC's random off-the-top-of-his-head hypo DOES NOT = proven true

Just coming up with some random shit is similar to Rick Perry's blame it on God approach...anybody but BP is good enough for a Texas Repug

The smell is absolutely consistent with the reports of beach/boat cleanup workers from day one...the same ones now getting sick from exposure. CC is throwing around shit to dispel the onslaught on BP...you would think he would follow the shit before he goes guessing about the realities of whats going on down there. that wouldnt be very repug of him though...

his approach makes perfect sense though, because the worker interviews wont be found on Fox news

[Wild Cobra]

global warming is causing problems on the oregon coast. abnormally hot top watersmean the oceans arent circulating enough to oxygenate the water off the coast there.

thats why Oregons salmon population is about to be caput too.
LOL...

Just how much Kool-Aid do you drink, anyway?

We have had record runs of salmon in recent times, just to be snatched by sea lions at the Bonneville dam fish ladders.

Do you really think that a 0.8 C atmospheric increase can make any notable changes in the sea temperature? What are you smoking. can I have some? Must be some good shit.

[Parker2112]

LOL...

Just how much Kool-Aid do you drink, anyway?

We have had record runs of salmon in recent times, just to be snatched by sea lions at the Bonneville dam fish ladders.

Do you really think that a 0.8 C atmospheric increase can make any notable changes in the sea temperature? What are you smoking. can I have some? Must be some good shit.

as for the salmon I am wrong.

as for your data, is that number local to the oregon coast? :lol

the theory Im citing comes from the rising temp of fresh waters at spawning sites, which have not been limited to .8 C. but otherwise, it looks like you are right about the recent runs, of which I hadnt followed

[Wild Cobra]

Get a clue Parker. know how to read this:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Global%20Warming/OxygenSolubilityinSeaWater.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

as for the salmon I am wrong.

as for your data, is that number local to the oregon coast? :lol

the theory Im citing comes from the rising temp of fresh waters at spawning sites, which have not been limited to .8 C. but otherwise, it looks like you are right about the recent runs, of which I hadnt followed
To change the oxygen content enough,there has to be a dramatic temperature increase. Even a 5C change only decrease the oxygen by maybe 7%.

[Parker2112]

To change the oxygen content enough,there has to be a dramatic temperature increase. Even a 5C change only decrease the oxygen by maybe 7%.

Im not inferring a correlation between temp and oxygen decrease in fresh water. if fresh water increases in temp enough the fish cant spawn.

[Parker2112]

Get a clue Parker. know how to read this:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Global%20Warming/OxygenSolubilityinSeaWater.jpg

this does not have a damn thing to do with ocean circulation, which is how water is oxygenated in the first place. this has to with capacity to oxygenate.

[Parker2112]

Do some reading here:
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100811/full/466812a.html


The changes in Oregon may be related to a broader pattern around the globe, in which subsurface patches of permanent hypoxia seem to be growing in size and losing yet more oxygen, for unknown reasons. And whether or not global warming is responsible for the changes to date, ocean models forecast that in the coming decades increasing water temperatures and changes in circulation will drive oxygen concentrations down even further.

“We have been experiencing a perfect storm — where weather, climate and currents come together to crash an ecosystem.”

[Wild Cobra]

Im not inferring a correlation between temp and oxygen decrease in fresh water. if fresh water increases in temp enough the fish cant spawn.
The freshwater change is the same percentage wise.

There are dramatic stream and river temperature changes year to year. It's natural, and global warming doesn't have anything to do. It has to do with the rate and percentage of snow melt and rain. The faster the snow melts, the faster the stream/river system, and the colder the water. Slower melts or more rain, causes warmer water.

Blame Global Warming if you must, but this is the same routine fluctuation for past millenniums. Not just recent years.

[Wild Cobra]

this does not have a damn thing to do with ocean circulation, which is how water is oxygenated in the first place. this has to with capacity to oxygenate.
Are you attempting to claim that the minor air temperature increases over the last hundred or so years affects the ocean that much? No fucking way! Water is so much more massive than air, and energy differences between air and water... The concept is so laughable. Any measurable average surface water increases are because of solar activity. Not greenhouse gasses. Now to change water circulation... Same answer. Air temperature is a weak energy compares to the energy water holds, and needs to make a measurable difference.

---edit-add---

Changes in algae, diatoms, etc. in the surface water also changes the distribution of water heat. This too, has nothing to do with a warmer atmosphere being able to influence the water.

[Parker2112]

Are you attempting to claim that the minor air temperature increases over the last hundred or so years affects the ocean that much? No fucking way! Water is so much more massive than air, and energy differences between air and water... The concept is so laughable. Any measurable average surface water increases are because of solar activity. Not greenhouse gasses. Now to change water circulation... Same answer. Air temperature is a weak energy compares to the energy water holds, and needs to make a measurable difference.

---edit-add---

Changes in algae, diatoms, etc. in the surface water also changes the distribution of water heat. This too, has nothing to do with a warmer atmosphere being able to influence the water.

nobody said anything about greenhouse effect. solar activity is fine by me. its still climate change.

and if you dont agree with my take on temp and ocean circ, you dont agree with the scientists in that article cited above either. read it and give me your criticisms. ill check it out tomorrow.

[Wild Cobra]

Do some reading here:
The changes in Oregon may be related to a broader pattern around the globe, in which subsurface patches of permanent hypoxia seem to be growing in size and losing yet more oxygen, for unknown reasons. And whether or not global warming is responsible for the changes to date, ocean models forecast that in the coming decades increasing water temperatures and changes in circulation will drive oxygen concentrations down even further.

“We have been experiencing a perfect storm — where weather, climate and currents come together to crash an ecosystem.”
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100811/full/466812a.html
This is no way claims global warming is the cause. I see it as a natural cycle.

Why do you liberals think every change in the earth is caused by man?

[MannyIsGod]

He's not a liberal and you apparently can't read because he said it wasn't necessarily caused by man.

In any event, the total heat contained in the ocean has gone up dramatically, which is why I wonder why when discussing global warming people like you are so caught up in the air temperature.

[Wild Cobra]

nobody said anything about greenhouse effect. solar activity is fine by me. its still climate change.
Usually when someone doesn't define "global warming," they speak of AGW, and dismiss natural. Maybe I jumped to that conclusion with you, unwarranted?

and if you dont agree with my take on temp and ocean circ, you dont agree with the scientists in that article cited above either. read it and give me your criticisms. ill check it out tomorrow.
The article is not what I question. It's how a person is set up to read the facts. "Global warming" is almost exclusively used for "anthropogenic global warning" by Nature. If they wanted to be more credible, they would differentiate the global warming type assumed. I see the way they write articles as a bias to AGW.

I would say this trend is caused by natural global warming, rather than the AWG dogma, if it is either. Something to note is that the shows the wind pattern as an easterly wind, pulling the surface water away, and pulling up the deep water. A westerly wind would do the opposite. Force surface water deep. This is just another natural weather cycle, the winds prevailing one way more than another. Why should we expect that to be the same year after year, decade after decade?



The sun has increased by notable intensity from the 1700's to about 1950. A 0.18% increase over a 200 year period. The oceans take hundreds of years to circulate, therefor, we see effects from the past as they flow. CO2, I can show, has less than half the effect of the solar changes. Probable less an affect than the Asian soot has on the arctic as well.

[MannyIsGod]

Wait, I just want to be sure you actually mean this. You think that the warming in the oceans today is from an increase in solar activity hundreds of years ago?

[Wild Cobra]

He's not a liberal and you apparently can't read because he said it wasn't necessarily caused by man.

In any event, the total heat contained in the ocean has gone up dramatically, which is why I wonder why when discussing global warming people like you are so caught up in the air temperature.
You missed my point. The ocean has magnitudes greater mass than the atmosphere. Air temperature changes have almost no power to change a water temperate. However, a water temperature change can dramatically change the atmosphere's temperature with hardly changing temperature. Solar changes have a proportional change to sea water temperatures. In this case, solar is the changing force. not greenhouse gasses. The only way the "heat contained in the ocean has gone up dramatically" would be by solar changes, otherwise, atmospheric temperature changes would be dramatic to the Nth degree, if the had the energy to influence the ocean.

[MannyIsGod]

You missed my point. The ocean has magnitudes greater mass than the atmosphere. Air temperature changes have almost no power to change a water temperate. However, a water temperature change can dramatically change the atmosphere's temperature with hardly changing temperature. Solar changes have a proportional change to sea water temperatures. In this case, solar is the changing force. not greenhouse gasses. The only way the "heat contained in the ocean has gone up dramatically" would be by solar changes, otherwise, atmospheric temperature changes would be dramatic to the Nth degree, if the had the energy to influence the ocean.

Except that anthropogenic global warming theory doesn't say that the atmosphere is warming up the oceans. Whether or not its true you're making such a stupid argument here its mind blowing after all the shit you talk about "understanding the science".

You do realize that the heat in a greenhouse is not provided by the actually greenhouse, correct? No one says that the glass structure in a greenhouse is what is warming the air inside of it so why are you making a counter argument that the atmosphere not warming the oceans? No one is making that argument.

[Wild Cobra]

Except that anthropogenic global warming theory doesn't say that the atmosphere is warming up the oceans.
Sure it does. It must, and does. If the creators of AGW fiction are to be believed, they cannot have the water warming Independent of what caused the greenhouse effect. It would disprove their own dogma.

Whether or not its true you're making such a stupid argument here its mind blowing after all the shit you talk about "understanding the science".
Only that my last posing needed to be written better before posting it.

You do realize that the heat in a greenhouse is not provided by the actually greenhouse, correct? No one says that the glass structure in a greenhouse is what is warming the air inside of it so why are you making a counter argument that the atmosphere not warming the oceans? No one is making that argument.

Yes...

I understand the similarities and differences between a greenhouse and the greenhouse effect.

Again, I am saying that the greenhouse effect changes are not large enough energy changes to influence the water.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure it does. It must, and does. If the creators of AGW fiction are to be believed, they cannot have the water warming Independent of what caused the greenhouse effect. It would disprove their own dogma.

Only that my last posing needed to be written better before posting it.

Yes...

I understand the similarities and differences between a greenhouse and the greenhouse effect.

Again, I am saying that the greenhouse effect changes are not large enough energy changes to influence the water.

No, what you said was that the atmosphere could not warm the oceans which is something AGW has never claimed. What they have claimed, is that CO2 has caused enough heat to be trapped on the earth to warm the oceans and the source of that heat is of course the sun - not the atmosphere.

You say that the only way the oceans can be warmed is through an increase in solar output as if somehow reducing the amount of solar energy we radiate out wouldn't accomplish the same thing.

Its not even about whether or not AGW is true or false but in the ridiculous manner you try to frame your side of a non existent argument to seem as if what others are saying cannot possibly be correct. Its one hell of a strawman.

[boutons_deux]

Mississippi Sound Tests Positive for Oil

Lots of pictures for you right wingers who don't like to read, but prefer sounds bite lies and from Fox and other VRWC/oilco-financed sources.

http://www.truth-out.org/mississippi-sound-tests-positive-oil62735?print

[Parker2112]

Usually when someone doesn't define "global warming," they speak of AGW, and dismiss natural. Maybe I jumped to that conclusion with you, unwarranted?
.

for the purposes of this argument, I dont care what causes global warming, you and I both have conceded that the earth is warming. Dosnt matter why.

Im saying that the global warming, no matter the cause, is causing ocean currents and circulation to shut down, meaning the water is not getting oxygen for fish, and the fish are dying as a result.

[Wild Cobra]

No, what you said was that the atmosphere could not warm the oceans which is something AGW has never claimed. What they have claimed, is that CO2 has caused enough heat to be trapped on the earth to warm the oceans and the source of that heat is of course the sun - not the atmosphere.

Split hairs, why don't you.

That is exactly what I meant. the claim that CO2 warms the air, and in turn, the air warms the ocean cannot be, for the reasons I stated.


You say that the only way the oceans can be warmed is through an increase in solar output as if somehow reducing the amount of solar energy we radiate out wouldn't accomplish the same thing.

It's called the IR window. When we decrease a given percentage if IR that passes out to space, the heat increases until the smaller percentage is high enough, multiplied by the increased heat in the greenhouse effect, to be in balance with the incoming energy.

Infrared does not penetrate far into water. Other solar spectra does.


Its not even about whether or not AGW is true or false but in the ridiculous manner you try to frame your side of a non existent argument to seem as if what others are saying cannot possibly be correct. Its one hell of a strawman.

If you say so. Thing with the AGW theory, is how they leave out relevant factors to make the claims.

[MannyIsGod]

Split hairs, why don't you.

That is exactly what I meant. the claim that CO2 warms the air, and in turn, the air warms the ocean cannot be, for the reasons I stated.


No one makes that claim. No one. STRAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWMAN.




It's called the IR window. When we decrease a given percentage if IR that passes out to space, the heat increases until the smaller percentage is high enough, multiplied by the increased heat in the greenhouse effect, to be in balance with the incoming energy.

Infrared does not penetrate far into water. Other solar spectra does.


:lol And yet the ocean is warming. The sun can't warm the oceans but the sun can warm the oceans.





If you say so. Thing with the AGW theory, is how they leave out relevant factors to make the claims.

Yeah, your method of making up false claims that you can counteract is clean.

[Nbadan]

I wouldn't be going swimming near the oil spill anytime soon..


EXCLUSIVE: Tests find sickened family has 50.3 ppm of Corexit’s 2-butoxyethanol in swimming pool — JUST ONE HOUR NORTH OF TAMPA (lab report included)
August 30th, 2010 at 09:13 AM Print Post Email Post


....................

“Warren collected a water sample from the pool filter on August 17th… packed the sample according to Mr. Naman’s instructions, and overnighted it to his Mobile, Ala. lab that same day,” she noted.

The results were delivered by Naman over the phone on August 27 at 11:00 a.m. EDT. A copy of the findings were then e-mailed to the Scheblers. To view the document, click here.

“Naman said our pool water sample we sent him contained 50.3 ppm
(parts per million) 2-butoxyethanol marker for Corexit,” according to Mrs. Schebler. Tests for arsenic came back at less than .02 ppm.

A July letter http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_R... from four top scientists noted, “Corexit 9527A contains 2-BTE (2-butoxyethanol), a toxic solvent that ruptures red blood cells, causing hemolysis (bleeding) and liver and kidney damage (Johanson and Bowman, 1991, Nalco, 2010).”

Link (http://www.floridaoilspilllaw.com/exclusive-tests-find-sickened-family-has-50-3-ppm-of-corexits-2-butoxyethanol-in-swimming-pool-just-one-hour-north-of-tampa-lab-report-included)

[CosmicCowboy]

Geez..what bullshit. did you actually read the whole article? They are just trying to stir up a class action lawsuit.


Then, on “July [23], my husband Warren mowed the lawn. It was hot so he got in the pool to cool off afterward. That afternoon he had severe diarrhea and very dark urine. This lasted about 2 days,” she revealed.

:lmao

Exactly the symptoms of mild heat stroke. Happens to me a couple times a year.


“Some of the neighbors we spoke to were more worried about home values than pollution.”

“We are hoping for someone to come and do more samplings, we were told we shouldn’t eat anything from outside as it probably will all be tainted. It seems that we are the first to check on this, we’re sure all our neighbors on this coast will have the same outcome.”

“We are lost. We would like more testing. We’ve reached out to a few people we thought could tell us where we go from here, but haven’t as of yet received any direction. We are not completely able to grasp what this means.”

“We feel it is a horrible environment to live in and frankly, would like to leave the area. We believe that if this substance is in our pool, it could very well be in the air, especially because of the rashes we continue to apply medication to. We’re not sure if this will enter the groundwater, or even already has. We feel other people need to know that if it’s in our backyard, it is most definitely in other backyards.”

Wanna bet they are underwater on their home mortgage?


Warren collected a water sample from the pool filter on August 17th…

:lmao

Yeah, buddy. If you want to skew the numbers take the sample at the filter. I could do an air quality test at my house by scraping the air filter and the tests would prove conclusively that I am living in lint. If you want to know the real ppm of the sample take it from the pool itself.

What a crock of shit. I fucking hate people like this.

[Wild Cobra]

2-Butoxyethanol is a solvent in paints and surface coatings, as well as cleaning products and inks. Other products that contain 2-butoxyethanol include acrylic resin formulations, asphalt release agents, firefighting foam, leather protectors, oil spill dispersants, bowling pin and lane degreaser, and photographic strip solutions. Other products containing 2-butoxyethanol as a primary ingredient include some whiteboard cleaners, liquid soaps, cosmetics, dry cleaning solutions, lacquers, varnishes, herbicides, and latex paints.

2-Butoxyethanol is frequently found in popular cleaning products.[1][2] It provides cleaning power and the characteristic odor of Windex and other glass cleaners. It is the main ingredient of many home, commercial and industrial cleaning solutions, such as Simple Green All-Purpose Cleaner.
Dan, are you running for the "Chicken Little" title?

[DarrinS]

I wouldn't be going swimming near the oil spill anytime soon..



Dan, you might be onto something. Look what I found.

w3qFdbUEq5s

[Wild Cobra]

Dan, you might be onto something. Look what I found.

w3qFdbUEq5s
That means, that with what I saw in sprinklers 45 years ago, I must have been seeing into the future!

Wow...

I'm Psychic!

[leemajors]

http://gizmodo.com/5683370/bp-oil-spill-aftermath-dead-coral-found-near-spill-site

[boutons_deux]

BP has screws up in Alaska, too. Disasters in the pipeline, so to speak.

Corrosion Warnings at BP Facilities in Alaska: Here’s What the Data Mean

http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_big_image/ppal_alaska_pipline_f-ranks_630x420_101105.jpg

http://www.propublica.org/article/corrosion-warnings-at-bp-facilities-in-alaska-heres-what-the-data-means

[Wild Cobra]

http://gizmodo.com/5683370/bp-oil-spill-aftermath-dead-coral-found-near-spill-site
Are you sure the article is valid?

I didn't know coral could live that deep.

[ChumpDumper]

Are you sure the article is valid?

I didn't know coral could live that deep.Your only reason for doubting a NY Times article quoting a scientist working in the Gulf for NOAA is your own ignorance?

[Sec24Row7]

Are you sure the article is valid?

I didn't know coral could live that deep.

Coral that have a symbiotic relationship with zooanthelae can't.

I know that much... they need direct sunlight... there are species of coral that live deeper, but they do not "reef" to my knowledge....

I thought that they may have been talking about the flower gardens...

http://flowergarden.noaa.gov/

But they aren't 4500 feet deep. The reason they are where they are is because it's so close to the surface.

That article is mistaken in it's facts on the location of the coral in the least and a complete fabrication at worst.