Are the Spurs still contenders?

[Y2Spursk]

Discuss.

(If you don't have a high school diploma and/or have calf tats, your opinion is meaningless.)

[4>0rings]

Contenders for mediocrity, sure. For the trophy... God no.

[Rito3d30]

If RJ improved
Splitter, Anderson fit in well
Hill, Blair keep improving
TP back in shape

Why not

[Solid D]

Discuss.

(If you don't have a high school diploma and/or have calf tats, your opinion is meaningless.)

http://www.deepwaterbay.com/Brand200518b.jpg

[Ace]

No not really...

[TwelveGs210]

No not really...

Hah..what do you know..you became a Heat fan..what..140 posts ago? Why would your opinion even count?

[koriwhat]

ok, this will sum it up. #5! goSPURSgo!

[Ditty]

sup bump

[crc21209]

Hah..what do you know..you became a Heat fan..what..140 posts ago? Why would your opinion even count?

:lmao

[ALVAREZ6]

This subject is sad.

What I mean is, with the team they have against teams from your average NBA season, yes, the probably are contenders.


But unfortunately, the Lakers and the Heat (I know I know they haven't played a game yet) are two of the best teams in modern NBA history, at the same time, basically telling every other team in the league to fuck off and not even try.

It will be the first time for me this season to watch the Spurs when they're on national TV, every single one I can, and believe throughout the whole time that they have very small chances to win it all.


So, I applaud Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, wish them luck as I'm a fan of Lebron and Wade, but at the same time want to tell them fuck off in return to what they are implicitly telling me and millions of others.

[Leonard Curse]

all i have to say is : "DEFINITELY"

[ALVAREZ6]

all i have to say is : "DEFINITELY"

Wrong. My response is the only acceptable one. Just admit it. The Lakers or the Heat will win it all. Or even maybe the Celtics, but not the Spurs. It's actually fact, and it's already being put into the June 2011 papers.

[BUMP]

^True. Barring injury it really just comes down to the Heat, Magic, or Lakers

[ohmwrecker]

^True. Barring injury it really just comes down to the Heat, Magic, or Lakers

No fucking way.

[rayray2k8]

Of course they are!.. Can't say the same for the Mavs though... They won't ever win shit.

[ALVAREZ6]

No fucking way.

Agreed.

The Magic are the most overrated team of the past 2 years. They are a good team, they are not NBA championship good. I think if the Spurs played Magic last year in the playoffs, cakewalk compared to Mavs series. Or not necessarily, but certainly Spurs would have won in a 7 game series.

[Ignorant Spurs fan]

Of course they are!.. Can't say the same for the Mavs though... They won't ever win shit.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LL YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though this thread had nothing to do with the Mavs we gotta throw them in there somewhere right? I mean we have four rings how many do the Mavs haave...........







































THATS RIGHT.....0 (:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao) the Chokericks (get it? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao) Will NEVER win as long as Cuban is the owner....

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Not really. I would be content with a season that goes to the semis right now.

[ohmwrecker]

They are a long shot for sure, but they belong in the discussion. I believe that there are 5 teams that are capable of winning a championship . . . the Spurs are one of them.

[Leonard Curse]

Wrong. My response is the only acceptable one. Just admit it. The Lakers or the Heat will win it all. Or even maybe the Celtics, but not the Spurs. It's actually fact, and it's already being put into the June 2011 papers.


you know if NEAL/J.ANDERSON/SPLITTER had your mentality or determination of course we would lose!!! either your not a real spurs fan or your part of the pessimistic grouch fans which is horrible.

i do admit that L.A has the upperhand however we are fully capable of beating them and they know it, last year we beat them badly so bad kobe faked an injury because he was destroyed by hill. what we needed last year was a young bad ass big to help defend LA's bigs and we had nothing of the sort and were still capable of beating l.a when our best scorer was out of the game!!!! oh and you act like theres no way in hell we can compete w/them?????

the last game tiago played against lamar proved we are going to give anybody hell especially the lakers because lamar was the one of two guys the spurs have no answer for, tiago pretty much made him his bottom bitch THATS A FACT!!! Remember tiago doesnt play like a chick cough (gasol) cough* timmy and tiago will def play with heart and tiago doesnt get pushed around this was our MAIN problem with L.A. and with timmy not having to play powerforward and center at the same time expect tim to have alot of strength out there. parkers back at full strength!!

our second unit of dejuan blair antonio mcdyess george hill NEAL and our big 12 player of the year J anderson are going to tear L.A's bench a new asshole the problem was chemistry and mason/bogans/finley sucked ass on all levels. dejuans second year should be amazing this guy pulls 20/20 games boys so when i say definitely i mean that because its not just our starting five think about L.A maintaining their leads/kobes new knee surgery (3rd one by the way at 32yrs old) L.A relies on kobe too much and we honestly have a deadly team this year and i see alot of our players hungry and we have alot of leaders who are mentally strong unlike L.A ala barnes/blake whose been w/nuggets/bucks/wiz/blazers/clips and now l.a oh but now hes the amazing steve blake haha matt barnes is a true scrub who shoots like shawn marion i honestly cant wait to see our team beat the shit out of L.A you watch

[phyzik]

If we are talking the perfect storm of the Spurs being completely healthy and actually making their shots count..... and the perfect matchups during the playoffs.... and injuries to key players from the Lakers and the Heat.... then yes.... They are contenders in that aspect.

If Kobe shows the pattern of decline he did in this last years playoffs, and Gasol is injured, we could possibly take them in 7 games. If we made it to the finals, we would be stomped by the Heat baring some miracle games from our big 3.

[ALVAREZ6]

you know if NEAL/J.ANDERSON/SPLITTER had your mentality or determination of course we would lose!!! either your not a real spurs fan or your part of the pessimistic grouch fans which is horrible.

i do admit that L.A has the upperhand however we are fully capable of beating them and they know it, last year we beat them badly so bad kobe faked an injury because he was destroyed by hill. what we needed last year was a young bad ass big to help defend LA's bigs and we had nothing of the sort and were still capable of beating l.a when our best scorer was out of the game!!!! oh and you act like theres no way in hell we can compete w/them?????

the last game tiago played against lamar proved we are going to give anybody hell especially the lakers because lamar was the one of two guys the spurs have no answer for, tiago pretty much made him his bottom bitch THATS A FACT!!! Remember tiago doesnt play like a chick cough (gasol) cough* timmy and tiago will def play with heart and tiago doesnt get pushed around this was our MAIN problem with L.A. and with timmy not having to play powerforward and center at the same time expect tim to have alot of strength out there. parkers back at full strength!!

our second unit of dejuan blair antonio mcdyess george hill NEAL and our big 12 player of the year J anderson are going to tear L.A's bench a new asshole the problem was chemistry and mason/bogans/finley sucked ass on all levels. dejuans second year should be amazing this guy pulls 20/20 games boys so when i say definitely i mean that because its not just our starting five think about L.A maintaining their leads/kobes new knee surgery (3rd one by the way at 32yrs old) L.A relies on kobe too much and we honestly have a deadly team this year and i see alot of our players hungry and we have alot of leaders who are mentally strong unlike L.A ala barnes/blake whose been w/nuggets/bucks/wiz/blazers/clips and now l.a oh but now hes the amazing steve blake haha matt barnes is a true scrub who shoots like shawn marion i honestly cant wait to see our team beat the shit out of L.A you watch

We resigned Matt Bonner. That's where the season ends.


On a serious note, sure the Spurs can beat the Lakers on a given day, but all things equal I think they still are stronger. And in a 7 game series, Kobe will do work. He hates losing as much as Manu, and unfortunately he's better. And sure Kobe could be injured or with nagging injuries, theoretically, but are you forgetting how old and injury prone our two best players are?

I agree, anything can happen, but on paper, the Spurs won't win it. That statement does not take into account that any series of things can be different...such as Kobe being injured, or an enormous meteor colliding into Miami and ending Lebron and Wades lives.

[phxspurfan]

I'll go out on a limb and say we get to 53 wins. But that's pushing it I think. And in the playoffs, if we draw the Lakers early, maybe we have a chance but most likely we will be a mid level seed and they will be #1 so they will have HCA anyway. We've seen this movie already.


But I'll still get my popcorn ready :]

[phyzik]

I'll go out on a limb and say we get to 53 wins. But that's pushing it I think. And in the playoffs, if we draw the Lakers early, maybe we have a chance but most likely we will be a mid level seed and they will be #1 so they will have HCA anyway. We've seen this movie already.


But I'll still get my popcorn ready :]

I'll stake my claim on a 56 win season.... last year we got off to a rocky start with Parker being injured, Manu shaking off the cobwebs early on during the rocky start, Timmy having to carry the load early on wearing him down and RJ sucking it up.

This year I think will be better. Parker is coming back off of a restful summer (for once). RJ and Blair have a year under their belt in the system. GH3 I expect to improve further. Manu will be Manu. Tim wont have to carry as much of the load like he did at the begining of last season.

I think this will be a more productive season than the last one.... Near the end of last season the team was really clicking. We faced one of (if not the) toughest schedule of any team the last few weeks before the playoffs and we did pretty damn well (thanks to super Manu).

Having said that, even if we make it to the playoffs relatively unscathed, I still dont see this team advancing past the WCF. Time will tell though.

Im hoping to see Splitter contribute this year, Im expecting an upgraded version of Oberto and I will be happy with that.

[gospursgojas]

Yes.

[Leonard Curse]

We resigned Matt Bonner. That's where the season ends.


On a serious note, sure the Spurs can beat the Lakers on a given day, but all things equal I think they still are stronger. And in a 7 game series, Kobe will do work. He hates losing as much as Manu, and unfortunately he's better. And sure Kobe could be injured or with nagging injuries, theoretically, but are you forgetting how old and injury prone our two best players are?

I agree, anything can happen, but on paper, the Spurs won't win it. That statement does not take into account that any series of things can be different...such as Kobe being injured, or an enormous meteor colliding into Miami and ending Lebron and Wades lives.


fair enough lets go your route lets say the spurs make the playoffs because they will and when they do well go down the list this is last years Western conference playoff teams:
LAKERS i feel as if we can beat this team playoff/season we have exp!
MAVERICKS if we took them last year we are more than capable this yr!
PHOENIX how'd we lose? mase/bogans no interior D! i think theyre done!
DENVER theyr bigs injured&be either blown up or have big chemistry prblms
UTAH we have had utahs #in the postseason, and i think splitter w/help!
PORTLAND we never play POR/ if we did i def think we would win in p/offs
SAN ANTONIO
OKLAHOMA with no moves made/hou could replace 8th spot/we will beat them if we do match up with them.
------------------------------
houston:might make the playoffs ths yr but without a star guard we win
memphis: i doubt they make the playoffs
new orleans: it doesnt look good for cp3 and i doubt they hang w/us

now look at that sheet if you tell me we have no shot at going to the western conference finals youre crazy think about each of our players talent against the opposing teams whos going to stop us? that my question to you and with our experience/vets along with major young talent athleticism at most positions theres no one to really stop us the only ones i see defeating us if at all are the ones i put bold font on, and i dont want to say dallas but i gotta say the mavs play like a dream team against the spurs.

honestly look at that playoff list and tell me who honestly can beat us in 7 game series we still have the big three and starters on the bench with what we have you guys are forgeting how good tp is when healthy a good 25pts a game with hill now scoring probably 18pts healthy manu/jeff/splitter with great pick and roll offense the duo of him and manu is going to be insane!!!! it will destroy teams.

:flag:

[mingus]

yes. definitely. and I'm not one to hype up the spurs either. I've predicted the Spurs to lose/fail on many occasions. people are just so concerned with what the media says that they belive they're not, but I believe at the end of the day they'll contend.

[IknowU]

For spurs its a marathon.

1. Get to the playoffs
2. Go beast mode
3. Pray all players are moulded and ready to go.
4. Injury Free

Rest will take care of itself

[xellos88330]

Contenders? Sure, however, there are quite a few things that will have to go the Spurs way for them to actually make it to the finals, let alone win it all.

1. RJ is useful
2. Timmy doesn't run out of gas.
3. Manu same as Timmy.
4. Hill shows improvement from last season.
5. TP doesn't get distracted with his contract.
6. Blair learns how to guard the bigger players well and he has developed a consistent jumper.
7. Tiago is as good as advertised.
8. Anderson/Neal provide the much needed 3 point threats the Spurs have been lacking.
9. Spurs defense is once again feared.
10. Everyone stays healthy for a long enough time to develop chemistry and remain healthy for the playoffs.
11. I give Pop his brain back.

That is all that I can think of off of the top of my head. They aren't listed in any particular order.

[OrEmuN]

Too many question marks to be consider as a contender at this moment. However, if everything goes our way, we may be contending next year. If Celtics can do it this year, we have the chance to do likewise

[Venti Quattro]

The Spurs are good up to the WCSF. It's another thing to get over that hump. For now they lack that extra oomph to get back to the WCF. However it doesn't mean that they can't get it somewhere along the season. Trades here, player improving there...

[GrandeDavid]

Discuss.

(If you don't have a high school diploma and/or have calf tats, your opinion is meaningless.)

Absolutely they are. I think its shallow, short-sighted and an assortment of other intellectually-condescending adjectives to write this team off. Duncan is still a top big man, Manu and Tony will be rested and healthy, add Splitter, assume Jefferson improves and the list goes on. And a lesser version beat Dallas in six, remember. I absolutely think that the Spurs are contenders assuming the usual, which is that they enter the postseason relatively healthy. They won't lack for motivation, especially Tony Parker!

[Xevious]

Health permitting... I think the Spurs absolutely have a better season than 09-10 for reasons already listed in this thread. Getting to the WCF is a real possibility, especially since the western conference will be weaker than it was last year. We'll have to see how OKC improves of course, and Portland is a big question mark. But on paper, teams like Utah and Phoenix don't look as scary to me. And the Spurs have proven that they can beat Dallas.

But getting past the Lakers? No... it's a long shot at best.

[fantasyfootball]

Contenders? Sure, however, there are quite a few things that will have to go the Spurs way for them to actually make it to the finals, let alone win it all.

1. RJ is useful
2. Timmy doesn't run out of gas.
3. Manu same as Timmy.
4. Hill shows improvement from last season.
5. TP doesn't get distracted with his contract.
6. Blair learns how to guard the bigger players well and he has developed a consistent jumper.
7. Tiago is as good as advertised.
8. Anderson/Neal provide the much needed 3 point threats the Spurs have been lacking.
9. Spurs defense is once again feared.
10. Everyone stays healthy for a long enough time to develop chemistry and remain healthy for the playoffs.
11. I give Pop his brain back.

That is all that I can think of off of the top of my head. They aren't listed in any particular order.

Whenever you have 11 ifs before you're a contender, you aren't a contender. You're a pretender.

Spurs are still a top 6-7 team in the league, but they're moving in the wrong direction.

At this point, here's how I would stack it:

1. Heat
2. Lakers (Because Kobe's about to become a "facilitator")
3. Celtics
4. Orlando
5. Thunder
6. Spurs

Duncan's declined to the point, he's done after next season. Manu is also on the downside of his career and I actually think Parker already peaked too. As much as I hate the front office's moves (Bonner/RJ), the demise of the big 3 has more to do with it than anything.

[easy7]

IMHO they will be contenders, but in order for them to be legit contenders to beat the Lakers, a lot of ifs have to happen. The Lakers got better during the offseason with the additions of Steve Blake and Matt Barnes and so have the Spurs with the addition of Tiago and James Anderson. The big 3 are also getting healthy. It is a long season and anything can happen in the NBA, so we will just have to see... :toast

[Darrin]

Discuss.

(If you don't have a high school diploma and/or have calf tats, your opinion is meaningless.)

As the roster stands right now, I don't believe so. Now, it's always possible that Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson join Manu Ginobili and have career years playing unreal basketball. It's possible that Tiago Splitter plays Duncan to Duncan's Robinson. But that's a lot of ifs based on last season's performances. If those things were to happen, the West is wide-open from 2-15. Denver, Dallas, Utah, Houston, Portland, Oklahoma City--they could all play in the Conference Finals.

It then becomes a question of whether they have enough to beat the Lakers. Antonio McDyess, DeJuan Blair, Duncan, and Splitter would have to have a great series against the Lakers bigs. Who guards Kobe? Will Jefferson have enough to handle Ron Artest's defense?

After that, it's probably Miami in the NBA Finals. Again, who guards these guys? Bruce Bowen isn't on the team anymore.

[temujin]

Last time I checked, Joey Crawford played in the playoffs (for the Lakers).

So the answer to the question is no.

[Whisky Dog]

It would take a Brett Favre miracle 2009 season performance from both TD and Manu for it to be even close

[fyatuk]

The Spurs are probably the only team that has a realistic chance (and a small one) of beating the Lakers in the West, just like the Celtics are probably the only team with a chance to take out the Heat.

So yeah, I'll go with contenders, but barely.

[Cane]

I don't think any team is going to be able to really compete against the Miami Heat but I think the Spurs have a good chance of making it to the conference finals; after that it depends on health. Great for the Spurs that the Jazz, Suns, and maybe even the Nuggets are no longer strong threats either. From the media I think the Spurs are going to get written off like the 2010 Boston Celtics were except it'll be for the entire season.

[ohmwrecker]

Whenever you have 11 ifs before you're a contender, you aren't a contender. You're a pretender.

Spurs are still a top 6-7 team in the league, but they're moving in the wrong direction.

At this point, here's how I would stack it:

1. Heat
2. Lakers (Because Kobe's about to become a "facilitator")
3. Celtics
4. Orlando
5. Thunder
6. Spurs

Duncan's declined to the point, he's done after next season. Manu is also on the downside of his career and I actually think Parker already peaked too. As much as I hate the front office's moves (Bonner/RJ), the demise of the big 3 has more to do with it than anything.

Every team in the NBA has ifs . . . Kobe has played three seasons in a row with nagging injuries without any real significant time out, The Heat will have some glaring, exploitable weaknesses that Lebron and Wade will not always be able to cover up, The Celtics keep getting older and not necessarily better . . . no other team in the league has a player, of any significance, with championship pedigree.

I believe the Spurs will be a significantly better (+5 wins) team this season and will have enough solid contributors during the regular season to afford Duncan and Ginobili better health in the playoffs. I certainly wouldn't give Oklahoma City and Orlando a better chance at winning a championship over the Spurs.

Duncan and Ginobili both spent a significant percentage of the 2009-10 season literally carrying the team on their backs and Parker was injured nearly the entire year. So, I think it's a little too early to nail the coffin on the big three. They will have an most improved, talented roster and while they are certainly not the front runner, they could easily get hot at the right time and make a deep run. They have the guns, the experience and the potential. It's far too early for absolution.

[cd98]

Spurs stopped being contenders when Duncan was no longer the best player on the team. Two years ago it was Parker. Last year it was Manu. Both are great players individually, but they are pieces, Tim was the franchise. When Tim took a few steps back in 2008, we went from top 3 to top 13.

We're in the conversation, but we don't have enough to beat the top 4 in a best of seven.

[Killakobe81]

Yes, they are. I have too much Respect for Tim, Pop and Manu to think otherwise. But that being said, I feel pretty confident if BOTH the Lakers and spurs are healthy we win. But it will be tougher than many on here think.

[ezau]

I'll stake my claim on a 56 win season.... last year we got off to a rocky start with Parker being injured, Manu shaking off the cobwebs early on during the rocky start, Timmy having to carry the load early on wearing him down and RJ sucking it up.

This year I think will be better. Parker is coming back off of a restful summer (for once). RJ and Blair have a year under their belt in the system. GH3 I expect to improve further. Manu will be Manu. Tim wont have to carry as much of the load like he did at the begining of last season.

I think this will be a more productive season than the last one.... Near the end of last season the team was really clicking. We faced one of (if not the) toughest schedule of any team the last few weeks before the playoffs and we did pretty damn well (thanks to super Manu).

Having said that, even if we make it to the playoffs relatively unscathed, I still dont see this team advancing past the WCF. Time will tell though.

Im hoping to see Splitter contribute this year, Im expecting an upgraded version of Oberto and I will be happy with that.

Good post

[ezau]

Yes, they are. I have too much Respet for Tim, Pop and Manu to think otherwise. But that being said, I feel pretty confident if BOTH the Lakers and spurs are healthy we win. But it will be tougher than many on here think.

The Lakers would be very difficult to beat in the playoffs, regardless of how much mileage their players have been through for the past three years. I would consider it a huge success if the Spurs reach the WCF. Time will tell

[spurs10]

I think we'll see significant improvement over last year, when we rarely had the Big 3 healthy at the same time. Tiago looked great last week. If Neal has any of the stuff he showed in Vegas. If Anderson shows the promise of Blair and George. There will indeed be 'ifs', but I'm not hating the team as is. I would imagine that any of the other contenders will not be taking the Spurs for granted either. GSG!!!

[xellos88330]

Whenever you have 11 ifs before you're a contender, you aren't a contender. You're a pretender.

Spurs are still a top 6-7 team in the league, but they're moving in the wrong direction.

At this point, here's how I would stack it:

1. Heat
2. Lakers (Because Kobe's about to become a "facilitator")
3. Celtics
4. Orlando
5. Thunder
6. Spurs

Duncan's declined to the point, he's done after next season. Manu is also on the downside of his career and I actually think Parker already peaked too. As much as I hate the front office's moves (Bonner/RJ), the demise of the big 3 has more to do with it than anything.

So when does being a top 6-7 team in the league mean they are not in contention? If you ask me, that is pretty good.

The list that I compiled was what they needed to do to win to the finals. They can contend without the list. To be a huge threat to the rest of the league most of those things will need to happen.

[mingus]

killkobe knows his shit.

[timtonymanurich]

The Braintrust of RC, Pop and the Spurs F.O. combined with Tim Tony Manu Splitter, and RJ, with how good our new additions are as well as DeJuan Blair-Bear....
I'd like to see us get another 60-win season, and burn LA to the ground.

I don't think Miami is going to be all that good. Sure they'll have a few 5-8 game win streaks, but They have just put the single-biggest target on their back. I'd LOVE to see the first Miami @ Cleveland game! Hell hath NO fury like Ohio scorned!

[ezau]

The Braintrust of RC, Pop and the Spurs F.O. combined with Tim Tony Manu Splitter, and RJ, with how good our new additions are as well as DeJuan Blair-Bear....
I'd like to see us get another 60-win season, and burn LA to the ground.

I don't think Miami is going to be all that good. Sure they'll have a few 5-8 game win streaks, but They have just put the single-biggest target on their back. I'd LOVE to see the first Miami @ Cleveland game! Hell hath NO fury like Ohio scorned!

LOL RJ, it's hard to take that guy seriously. He's one big fucking question mark and I dunno if he's really gonna pan out.

[fantasyfootball]

So when does being a top 6-7 team in the league mean they are not in contention? If you ask me, that is pretty good.

The list that I compiled was what they needed to do to win to the finals. They can contend without the list. To be a huge threat to the rest of the league most of those things will need to happen.

A top 6 team is just that, a top 6 team but they're light years away from the Lakers or Heat. Your definiton may be different, but when I think of contender, I think of a team that legitimately has a shot at a championship.

Under that definition, the only teams that seriously have a shot are either Lakers, Celtics, or Heat.

The Lakers, Celtics, and Heat don't need a million dominoes to fall in the right place to win. They just have to be better than the other.

I think the Spurs will have a fine regular season (54 games) and make it to the conference finals, but they aren't talented/athletic/tall enough to match the Lakers and Heat.

Hell, last year Orlando threw the Spurs to the curb. It was a regular season game, but they dominated them. I don't even think the Spurs could get by Orlando.

Spurs would fare best against the C's because of matchups, but I'd still give a definitive edge to Boston.

Here's what I like about the Spurs:

- Tony Parker will be as good as he's been in 2 years.
- Splitter is going to grab rebounds and affect shots in the paint. He also gives an option on offense.
- Richard Jefferson has a year of experience in the system

Here's what takes them out of contention:

- Duncan is on his last legs. He can't play back-to-backs and he has to have his minutes severely limited. Even then, he's not always effective.
- Spurs still count on Matt Bonner for heavy production. This is pretty embarrassing. You don't see Boston milking Scalabrine.
- Richard Jefferson isn't going to all of a sudden flip the switch. He'll probably have less mental mistakes and flow better in the offense, but he's still Richard Jefferson, a soft, weak NBA player who has no confidence unless he gets a dunk.
- Spurs don't have consistent, knockdown offensive shooters to spread the floor.
- Lack of athleticism/height. Same problems for the Spurs. They always fight an uphill battle against the Lakers because of this.
- Still missing a perimeter defender to guard superstar 2/3s.
- Pop will go against common sense and is stubborn as a mule. He almost never makes a change in his philosophy/thinking until it's too late.

The Spurs were looking pretty good when they got swept off their feet by the Suns. Then, the Suns got handled by the Lakers. That goes a long way in telling you where the Spurs are at.

I think the Magic would handle the Spurs pretty easily. I think the Heat would make the Spurs look like the Angola women's team. Lebron and Dwayne Wade would eat the Spurs alive.

[2Cleva]

I'm glad some sense is coming back in this thread. No disrespect to SA but they aren't in LA or Miami's league.

[chazley]

Our team is better than the Celtics when we are healthy. Celtics were a Kendrick Perkins knee injury away from winning it all.

Yes, we are contenders. Honestly, I think theirs a large section of Spurs fans that kind of want to believe we are done. Those people are in the same category as all the other haters who believed we would never do shit, and all we did was win 4 championships.

Do not count us out if we are healthy in May. In March we showed the league it would be stupid to say we are done. Hill/Parker injuries (who would've thought they'd be the ones injured?) derailed us.

[fantasyfootball]

Our team is better than the Celtics when we are healthy. Celtics were a Kendrick Perkins knee injury away from winning it all.

Yes, we are contenders. Honestly, I think theirs a large section of Spurs fans that kind of want to believe we are done. Those people are in the same category as all the other haters who believed we would never do shit, and all we did was win 4 championships.

Do not count us out if we are healthy in May. In March we showed the league it would be stupid to say we are done. Hill/Parker injuries (who would've thought they'd be the ones injured?) derailed us.

When did Spurs > Celtics become a matter of fact? Even if they were and the C's somehow beat D-Wade and Co., Spurs would never get past Lakers so that's a moot point.

I believe Spurs fans have their hands over their eyes and won't look at the writing on the wall. The Spurs have been done for a long time.

Every year is another what if, woulda coulda year. How many of those do you need before you realize it's over?

The Spurs are down 1 legend. That's game over as far as championships are concerned.

As it stands, Spurs are have settled into a very good team that the contenders know they can beat whenever they want. Home town fans might get excited over a regular season win or a close loss against the real contenders but the rest of the league knows it's coming down to Lakers or Heat (maayybe C's).

[2Cleva]

fantasyfootball speaks the truth.

If SA gets a Top-10, 15 player - then they can truly enter the convo.

[Rummpd]

Yes because I think they can at least get to the finals under three scenarios:

1. No health issues big three.
2. They make a midseason move to bring in one more vet
3. LAL has some bad luck and/or injuries - they are still by far the class of the West, but the gap is not insurmountable if either the Spurs improve with their additions signficantly and/or LAL has some playoff struggles.

[George Gervin's Afro]

With a couple of breaks we are contenders...

[Horse]

There's alot to be determined with just how good we'll be. But anyone not on board I say FUCK YOU!

[Killakobe81]

A top 6 team is just that, a top 6 team but they're light years away from the Lakers or Heat. Your definiton may be different, but when I think of contender, I think of a team that legitimately has a shot at a championship.

Under that definition, the only teams that seriously have a shot are either Lakers, Celtics, or Heat.

The Lakers, Celtics, and Heat don't need a million dominoes to fall in the right place to win. They just have to be better than the other.

I think the Spurs will have a fine regular season (54 games) and make it to the conference finals, but they aren't talented/athletic/tall enough to match the Lakers and Heat.

Hell, last year Orlando threw the Spurs to the curb. It was a regular season game, but they dominated them. I don't even think the Spurs could get by Orlando.

Spurs would fare best against the C's because of matchups, but I'd still give a definitive edge to Boston.

Here's what I like about the Spurs:

- Tony Parker will be as good as he's been in 2 years.
- Splitter is going to grab rebounds and affect shots in the paint. He also gives an option on offense.
- Richard Jefferson has a year of experience in the system

Here's what takes them out of contention:

- Duncan is on his last legs. He can't play back-to-backs and he has to have his minutes severely limited. Even then, he's not always effective.
- Spurs still count on Matt Bonner for heavy production. This is pretty embarrassing. You don't see Boston milking Scalabrine.
- Richard Jefferson isn't going to all of a sudden flip the switch. He'll probably have less mental mistakes and flow better in the offense, but he's still Richard Jefferson, a soft, weak NBA player who has no confidence unless he gets a dunk.
- Spurs don't have consistent, knockdown offensive shooters to spread the floor.
- Lack of athleticism/height. Same problems for the Spurs. They always fight an uphill battle against the Lakers because of this.
- Still missing a perimeter defender to guard superstar 2/3s.
- Pop will go against common sense and is stubborn as a mule. He almost never makes a change in his philosophy/thinking until it's too late.

The Spurs were looking pretty good when they got swept off their feet by the Suns. Then, the Suns got handled by the Lakers. That goes a long way in telling you where the Spurs are at.

I think the Magic would handle the Spurs pretty easily. I think the Heat would make the Spurs look like the Angola women's team. Lebron and Dwayne Wade would eat the Spurs alive.

This is a well thought out post. You almost have me doubting my thoughts on the matter. However I STILL disagree. Now granted this is base that duncan has one last big run left. If he does. i think the spurs matchup well with every team listed EXCEPT the Heat. But the Heat are not promised a trip to the finals anyway. but even so I would give the spurs a small chance.

The only clear advantages the Heat have on the spurs are: SF and SG. now i admit those look to be grand canyon wide advantages but let me at leats make a case for Manu (my 2nd favorite spur) ...

In a big game (when healthy) is Wade really THAT much better than Manu?
If Manu can give you a few vintage games in a series (remember in 2008 when he led the spurs to their one victory over the Lakers inthe WCF) I think it off-sets a bit what wade will do to the spurs on defense. Besides as great as wade is I've seen hinrich do a solid job on him ...you telling me Manu couldnt do half as good?

Well Lebron will shit on RJ? Yes, there i no way for me to sugar coat it.
Duncan can still dominate Bosh and if they played him 1 on 1, and would probably foul him out on top of it. Problem is Im guessing they swarm duncan if he is abusing Bosh. The spurs shooters would have to make them pay.
Spliiter should be as good as Z or whomever the Heat put at center.

Ultimately I think the spurs don't matchup well with the heat, due to the lack of perimeter defenders. And Pop would be crazy to play small ball against them.

Key to matching heat is to shoot a high %, pound their soft middle, take advantage of the gambling wade and Lebron and control the boards also force Lebron to jack up his 30 feet deep 3's ...pack the paint against drives even if you give up 3's.

[rmt]

The only way the Spurs win the championship is season-ending injuries to Kobe and KG. They probably need even more than just a KG injury as Bos still has the 2 O'neals, Perkins and Big Baby.

I'd give them more of a chance against the Heat than LA and Bos just because MIA doesn't have much depth and haven't been through the wars together. They probably still couldn't beat the Magic either - so add an injury to one of their top 3 players. In other words, it would take a miracle.

[2Cleva]

This is a well thought out post. You almost have me doubting my thoughts on the matter. However I STILL disagree. Now granted this is base that duncan has one last big run left. If he does. i think the spurs matchup well with every team listed EXCEPT the Heat. But the Heat are not promised a trip to the finals anyway. but even so I would give the spurs a small chance.

The only clear advantages the Heat have on the spurs are: SF and SG. now i admit those look to be grand canyon wide advantages but let me at leats make a case for Manu (my 2nd favorite spur) ...

In a big game (when healthy) is Wade really THAT much better than Manu?
If Manu can give you a few vintage games in a series (remember in 2008 when he led the spurs to their one victory over the Lakers inthe WCF) I think it off-sets a bit what wade will do to the spurs on defense. Besides as great as wade is I've seen hinrich do a solid job on him ...you telling me Manu couldnt do half as good?

Well Lebron will shit on RJ? Yes, there i no way for me to sugar coat it.
Duncan can still dominate Bosh and if they played him 1 on 1, and would probably foul him out on top of it. Problem is Im guessing they swarm duncan if he is abusing Bosh. The spurs shooters would have to make them pay.
Spliiter should be as good as Z or whomever the Heat put at center.

Ultimately I think the spurs don't matchup well with the heat, due to the lack of perimeter defenders. And Pop would be crazy to play small ball against them.

Key to matching heat is to shoot a high %, pound their soft middle, take advantage of the gambling wade and Lebron and control the boards also force Lebron to jack up his 30 feet deep 3's ...pack the paint against drives even if you give up 3's.

Please. Be honest, don't try to kiss ass.

[timtonymanu]

The resigning of Bonner and RJ was enough to tell me what direction this team was heading into. You give long term contracts to two of the worst playoff performers we had in the rotation last year. I am still trying to figure out what made Bonner so valuable to this team that he got an extension. I thought that would only go to true rotation players - Bowen. So Bonner is just as valuable as Bowen was to the Spurs? GTFO of here.

This team is no longer a contender like the Lakers or the Heat. Sure, the big 3 will come into the season healthy but they could still easily get hurt midway again. And we still have not one perimeter defender. Our best is probably Hill, but we saw how awesome of a job he did with Nash.

The only thing I feel good about is that now we have Splitter and Anderson to add to our youth movement.

Despite all these doubts I have, I know I cant count my team out. They pretty much looked like a contender at the end of last season, but the big 3 were gassed already.

For things to work out, everyone has to take some slack off the big 3. I feel like Hill can do it. Blair hopefully. RJ and Dice have to. Splitter should be decent. Our bench needs to be able to lead our team so our big 3 is fresh for the playoffs. I dont want to see Duncan have to carry the slack for the first part of the season and then either Manu/Parker carry the second half.

I'm still expecting the Spurs to play like they want a title so hopefully things work out.

[Ace]

This is a well thought out post. You almost have me doubting my thoughts on the matter. However I STILL disagree. Now granted this is base that duncan has one last big run left. If he does. i think the spurs matchup well with every team listed EXCEPT the Heat. But the Heat are not promised a trip to the finals anyway. but even so I would give the spurs a small chance.

The only clear advantages the Heat have on the spurs are: SF and SG. now i admit those look to be grand canyon wide advantages but let me at leats make a case for Manu (my 2nd favorite spur) ...

In a big game (when healthy) is Wade really THAT much better than Manu?
If Manu can give you a few vintage games in a series (remember in 2008 when he led the spurs to their one victory over the Lakers inthe WCF) I think it off-sets a bit what wade will do to the spurs on defense. Besides as great as wade is I've seen hinrich do a solid job on him ...you telling me Manu couldnt do half as good?

Well Lebron will shit on RJ? Yes, there i no way for me to sugar coat it.
Duncan can still dominate Bosh and if they played him 1 on 1, and would probably foul him out on top of it. Problem is Im guessing they swarm duncan if he is abusing Bosh. The spurs shooters would have to make them pay.
Spliiter should be as good as Z or whomever the Heat put at center.

Ultimately I think the spurs don't matchup well with the heat, due to the lack of perimeter defenders. And Pop would be crazy to play small ball against them.

Key to matching heat is to shoot a high %, pound their soft middle, take advantage of the gambling wade and Lebron and control the boards also force Lebron to jack up his 30 feet deep 3's ...pack the paint against drives even if you give up 3's.

Wouldn't be much a series tbh...

[TD 21]

They are a long shot for sure, but they belong in the discussion. I believe that there are 5 teams that are capable of winning a championship . . . the Spurs are one of them.


yes. definitely. and I'm not one to hype up the spurs either. I've predicted the Spurs to lose/fail on many occasions. people are just so concerned with what the media says that they belive they're not, but I believe at the end of the day they'll contend.


Too many question marks to be consider as a contender at this moment. However, if everything goes our way, we may be contending next year. If Celtics can do it this year, we have the chance to do likewise


Every team in the NBA has ifs . . . Kobe has played three seasons in a row with nagging injuries without any real significant time out, The Heat will have some glaring, exploitable weaknesses that Lebron and Wade will not always be able to cover up, The Celtics keep getting older and not necessarily better . . . no other team in the league has a player, of any significance, with championship pedigree.

I believe the Spurs will be a significantly better (+5 wins) team this season and will have enough solid contributors during the regular season to afford Duncan and Ginobili better health in the playoffs. I certainly wouldn't give Oklahoma City and Orlando a better chance at winning a championship over the Spurs.

Duncan and Ginobili both spent a significant percentage of the 2009-10 season literally carrying the team on their backs and Parker was injured nearly the entire year. So, I think it's a little too early to nail the coffin on the big three. They will have an most improved, talented roster and while they are certainly not the front runner, they could easily get hot at the right time and make a deep run. They have the guns, the experience and the potential. It's far too early for absolution.

[Killakobe81]

Please. Be honest, don't try to kiss ass.

Maybe I'm biased because I lived there for a short while, IDK but I don't think they are dead. I don't have to kiss ass. Go in to the NBA forum, I have been arguing for two days straight (off and on)that kobe is greater than Tim. I just respect duncan a lot and Manu as a champion as well. Would I bet my mortgage on the spurs? ...hell no!!!! But would I bet my mortgage against them either ... probably not. A paycheck maybe. Like I said I'm confident lakers will beat them but I see the spurs as a tough out. I at least expect a much tougher series if they get there than 2008 ...you don't agree?

Also you guys don't think duncan has one last run left in him? With help, how do we not know if he pulls a Kareem in 1985?

[Bruno]

There is one contender: Miami Heat.

All the other teams aren't in the same league than them.

[TD 21]

Really? What have they won?

I don't care how promising a team looks, I'm not anointing them before they've even played a game together, let alone done anything of significance.

They obviously appear to be one of the two teams to beat, but I've got the Lakers as the favorites and not just because they're the defending champs. Their continuity and size (where the Heat are most vulnerable) should be enough to hold them off for a year, unless Bryant drops another level.

Solid post, Killakobe81.

[ohmwrecker]

A top 6 team is just that, a top 6 team but they're light years away from the Lakers or Heat. Your definiton may be different, but when I think of contender, I think of a team that legitimately has a shot at a championship.

Under that definition, the only teams that seriously have a shot are either Lakers, Celtics, or Heat.

The Lakers, Celtics, and Heat don't need a million dominoes to fall in the right place to win. They just have to be better than the other.

I think the Spurs will have a fine regular season (54 games) and make it to the conference finals, but they aren't talented/athletic/tall enough to match the Lakers and Heat. Hell, last year Orlando threw the Spurs to the curb. It was a regular season game, but they dominated them. I don't even think the Spurs could get by Orlando. Spurs would fare best against the C's because of matchups, but I'd still give a definitive edge to Boston.

I would put the Spurs higher than 6 in regards to having the tools to win a championship. The core of the team has won three championships. The demise of Tim Duncan is being greatly exaggerated here (he was forced to carry the team in the first third of the season). Tony Parker is set to have a possible All-Star level year and Manu almost single handed, led the Spurs into the playoffs last season.
This season's squad is greatly improved. As inconsistent and, at times just bad, as the Spurs were last season, they still played the elite teams very well and beat them when it mattered. Your memory is not very good, because the last time they played the Magic, the Spurs won . . . convincingly (43 pt. game from Manu). They also played the Lakers very well, and with the addition of Splitter, they have a legit big to counter Gasol, taking a lot of pressure off Duncan.
Call me a homer, but the Spurs are still a dangerous team and deserve to be in the conversation, regardless of the way their season ended last year.


Here's what I like about the Spurs:

My point by point response in BOLD

- Tony Parker will be as good as he's been in 2 years. Agreed.
- Splitter is going to grab rebounds and affect shots in the paint. He also gives an option on offense. Sure.
- Richard Jefferson has a year of experience in the system. Obviously.

Here's what takes them out of contention:

- Duncan is on his last legs. He can't play back-to-backs and he has to have his minutes severely limited. Even then, he's not always effective.
Duncan has more help this year with Splitter and a 2nd year Blair. McDyess should get more regular season rest and they can afford to play Bonner as a situational/match-up guy.
- Spurs still count on Matt Bonner for heavy production. This is pretty embarrassing. You don't see Boston milking Scalabrine.
Not as much this season and, as funny as the comparison is, Bonner is a much better player than Scalabrine.
- Richard Jefferson isn't going to all of a sudden flip the switch. He'll probably have less mental mistakes and flow better in the offense, but he's still Richard Jefferson, a soft, weak NBA player who has no confidence unless he gets a dunk.
RJ doesn't need to "flip the switch". The problem is not as severe as everyone makes it out to be. All he needs to do is make a few key adjustments to his game and once he sees some consistency, everything else will fall in line.
- Spurs don't have consistent, knockdown offensive shooters to spread the floor.
They have Parker, who before the injury riddled season, had a much improved jumper, Manu, who is one of the best clutch shooters in the NBA, George Hill, who was the most consistent "corner 3" shooter last season . . . and, even with all the unknowns, Anderson, Gee and Neal are already a HUGE improvement over Bogans and Mason.
- Lack of athleticism/height. Same problems for the Spurs. They always fight an uphill battle against the Lakers because of this.
Healthy, contract year Parker/Splitter.
- Still missing a perimeter defender to guard superstar 2/3s.
By committee Anderson, Gee and Neal > Bogans/Mason. I wouldn't be surprised to see another player come in by mid-season either.
- Pop will go against common sense and is stubborn as a mule. He almost never makes a change in his philosophy/thinking until it's too late.
Splitter guarantees less small ball and the youth movement is here . . . He has no choice.

The Spurs were looking pretty good when they got swept off their feet by the Suns. Then, the Suns got handled by the Lakers. That goes a long way in telling you where the Spurs are at.
Wrong. Totally different match ups and style of play. The Spurs/Suns series last season tells you nothing about a potential Spurs/Lakers series this season.

I think the Magic would handle the Spurs pretty easily. I think the Heat would make the Spurs look like the Angola women's team. Lebron and Dwayne Wade would eat the Spurs alive.

You lost all your credibility with that last bit . . . the Magic are not that great and the Heat, beyond the hugely overrated Bosh, have one of the weakest frontlines in the league. LeBron and Wade are good, but not good enough to cover all 5 positions against good teams. Defending elite wing players is still a pretty big issue for the Spurs, but Jefferson actually defended LeBron pretty well in that last game vs. Cleveland.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but the Spurs deserve to be in the conversation and are being too harshly dismissed here.

[DPG21920]

I would put the Spurs higher than 6 in regards to having the tools to win a championship. The core of the team has won three championships. The demise of Tim Duncan is being greatly exaggerated here (he was forced to carry the team in the first third of the season). Tony Parker is set to have a possible All-Star level year and Manu almost single handed, led the Spurs into the playoffs last season.
This season's squad is greatly improved. As inconsistent and, at times just bad, as the Spurs were last season, they still played the elite teams very well and beat them when it mattered. Your memory is not very good, because the last time they played the Magic, the Spurs won . . . convincingly (43 pt. game from Manu). They also played the Lakers very well, and with the addition of Splitter, they have a legit big to counter Gasol, taking a lot of pressure off Duncan.
Call me a homer, but the Spurs are still a dangerous team and deserve to be in the conversation, regardless of the way their season ended last year.



See, what I don't get is how you (and others) can dismiss other people's arguments because we have not seen MIA play or things like that, only to turn around and make a completely unsubstantiated claim like the one I highlighted above.

How do you know the Spurs are "greatly improved"? Splitter is not Pau or on that level. The Spurs re-signed a terrible fit in RJ, a playoff choker in Bonner and added no significant, known quantities. They added no vets that you can logically assume will help the obvious match up problems the elite present.

They took a team that was swept, extended the worst fit (that has mentioned he does not want to be here) and added a bunch of unproven and questionable rookies.

How on Earth can you say the team is greatly improved when there are so many unknowns and when the team brought back the players that played a large role in getting the Spurs swept?

You also talk about people placing too much on RJ's struggles and Tim's decline? How can you say that? How can you back that up with facts and not opinion?

I watched RJ. In my opinion, it is not as simple as "making a few adjustments and everything will fall in line." The adjustments that need to be made in order to make the Spurs true contenders are not things that can just happen easily, because either RJ has never shown the consistent ability or his age has caught up. Either way, you are using strictly opinion and optimism and passing it off as simple fact.

The people worried about RJ and Tim have numbers and a playoff sweep to justify their worries.

Point is, you are using arguments that you are arguing against. At least in logic.

[fantasyfootball]

I would put the Spurs higher than 6 in regards to having the tools to win a championship. The core of the team has won three championships. The demise of Tim Duncan is being greatly exaggerated here (he was forced to carry the team in the first third of the season). Tony Parker is set to have a possible All-Star level year and Manu almost single handed, led the Spurs into the playoffs last season.
This season's squad is greatly improved. As inconsistent and, at times just bad, as the Spurs were last season, they still played the elite teams very well and beat them when it mattered. Your memory is not very good, because the last time they played the Magic, the Spurs won . . . convincingly (43 pt. game from Manu). They also played the Lakers very well, and with the addition of Splitter, they have a legit big to counter Gasol, taking a lot of pressure off Duncan.
Call me a homer, but the Spurs are still a dangerous team and deserve to be in the conversation, regardless of the way their season ended last year.



You lost all your credibility with that last bit . . . the Magic are not that great and the Heat, beyond the hugely overrated Bosh, have one of the weakest frontlines in the league. LeBron and Wade are good, but not good enough to cover all 5 positions against good teams. Defending elite wing players is still a pretty big issue for the Spurs, but Jefferson actually defended LeBron pretty well in that last game vs. Cleveland.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but the Spurs deserve to be in the conversation and are being too harshly dismissed here.

How have I lost any credibility? All you did was disagree with me using your opinions. On Orlando, I'm remembering the game they thrashed them in Florida.

If you want to put them in the discussion, talking up their potential and overplaying other teams flaws, it's understandable a Spurs fan would want to do so. At the end of the season though, they won't be champions. You probably still won't agree even in retrospect that they didn't deserve "contender" status. In your eyes, they'll still have been contenders despite never seriously being in contention. Such is how a blinded fan thinks.

And I stand by Orlando > Spurs.

Neither of us is going to change the other's opinion so we'll just have to wait until the playoffs.

[ohmwrecker]

See, what I don't get is how you (and others) can dismiss other people's arguments because we have not seen MIA play or things like that, only to turn around and make a completely unsubstantiated claim like the one I highlighted above.

The same way that you (and others) dismiss the Spurs chances against LA and Miami without waiting to see how things shake down this coming season. Everyone is operating on assumptions and opinions at this point.


How do you know the Spurs are "greatly improved"? Splitter is not Pau or on that level. The Spurs re-signed a terrible fit in RJ, a playoff choker in Bonner and added no significant, known quantities. They added no vets that you can logically assume will help the obvious match up problems the elite present.

Come on, man . . . I never said Splitter was on Pau's level. You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. What I DID say is that having another legit big will HELP defend teams who have strong frontlines and take a lot of pressure off Duncan. I'm not saying Splitter is the "golden god" 2nd coming of D-Rob, but he will be a big help. Add Splitter to a team that will have a healthy TP and Manu to START the season, Blair and RJ in their 2nd year, an ever-improving Hill in his third and a couple of high potential young guys . . . and I see an improved team. I don't know what's going to happen . . . nobody does.


They took a team that was swept, extended the worst fit (that has mentioned he does not want to be here) and added a bunch of unproven and questionable rookies.

How on Earth can you say the team is greatly improved when there are so many unknowns and when the team brought back the players that played a large role in getting the Spurs swept?

The Spurs struggled mightily last season. I'm not denying that. They squeeked into the playoffs, over-extended themselves against Dallas and ran into a revenge-fueled buzzsaw in Phoenix. Blaming Bonner and Jefferson for that debacle is like spitting on a fire to out it out. Duncan, Ginobili and Parker (and Popovich) deserve most of the blame. Their job is to step up in those situations and take the pressure off the supporting cast. When the big three are rolling in the playoffs, the role players/bench perform better. The entire team lost that series.





You also talk about people placing too much on RJ's struggles and Tim's decline? How can you say that? How can you back that up with facts and not opinion?
I watched RJ. In my opinion, it is not as simple as "making a few adjustments and everything will fall in line." The adjustments that need to be made in order to make the Spurs true contenders are not things that can just happen easily, because either RJ has never shown the consistent ability or his age has caught up. Either way, you are using strictly opinion and optimism and passing it off as simple fact. The people worried about RJ and Tim have numbers and a playoff sweep to justify their worries.

I think you just answered your own question there, dude . . . I'm not trying to pass off anything as simple fact. I just don't see the RJ situation as dire and hopelessly unfortunate as you seem to. I don't think he is a bad fit and even if he was, it is Pop's job to correct that. Other coaches do it ALL THE TIME . . . I saw Pop and Tim give up on this team a lot last season because things weren't going well and it wasn't "easy". They got a little too comfortable the past few years and they had to re-learn that becoming a championship team is hard work. In my opinion, they will have a better roster this season and more help. Again, I'm not saying they are going to win a championship, but they belong in the conversation.



Point is, you are using arguments that you are arguing against. At least in logic.

Huh? Mind if I do a J?

[ohmwrecker]

How have I lost any credibility? All you did was disagree with me using your opinions. On Orlando, I'm remembering the game they thrashed them in Florida.

Not really . . . I mentioned the specific game in April when both teams, heading into the post season should have been playing their best basketball, and the Spurs defeated the Magic convincingly. How is that "my opinion"? It actually happened . . . look it up.


If you want to put them in the discussion, talking up their potential and overplaying other teams flaws, it's understandable a Spurs fan would want to do so. At the end of the season though, they won't be champions. You probably still won't agree even in retrospect that they didn't deserve "contender" status. In your eyes, they'll still have been contenders despite never seriously being in contention. Such is how a blinded fan thinks.

At the end of the season, odds are, they won't be champions. I am totally realistic about their chances, but I'm not going to be a miserable, defeatist and absolutist about it either. You are making a lot of misguided and uninformed conclusions about what I think. I didn't do that with you. Honestly, that tact is pretty fucking weak. Passive/aggressive bullshit.

I'm not blind at all. I am choosing to focus on the positives over the negatives for the purposes of this discussion.


And I stand by Orlando > Spurs.

Neat.


Neither of us is going to change the other's opinion so we'll just have to wait until the playoffs.

So, you think the Spurs will make the playoffs? I guess that's a step in the right direction.

[Gagnrath]

There are a few things here that are known. The Heat aren't one of them and untill i see a few games I'm not passing much judgement on them, will call them, contender #5 for the moment.

Contender 1. Lakers v Spurs. This is the team that the spurs are made to compete against.

Artest is 1 year older slower and fatter without getting any smarter or saner. SF advantage slightly to the spurs with Jefferson which is kinda bad.

Center Bynum V Dice Advantage Lakers though not huge if Bynum is healthy.... If Bynum is healthy.

Power Forward Duncan v Gaso.....l Duncan is old Gasol is soft and doesn't handle pressure matchup cancels.

SG Manu v Kobe advantage lakers This one is interesting though

PG Parker v D. Fisher, Parker should walk away with this.

Bench Spurs v Odom and Barnes Advantage spurs


Contender #2 Celtics v Spurs classic match-ups all depends on health

Contender #3 The Magic v Spurs

This is what happens when you don't teach a really promising center how to use skills. Please stop it with basing your whole offence on a movement 3pt shot or on a dunk by Howard. This comes down to staying home on the shooters, and frustrating Howard. Having someone he can't push around in Blair is huge and yes Blair will foul out first but will also get Howard 3 or four fouls in the first half then he either plays tentative or fouls out with 10 to 15 minutes left in close games when facing either Duncan or Splitter. He will also collect fouls quickly altering Manu and Parker drives


Dallas can be dismissed, and the Suns are done. The Heat aren't going to be the dream team reincarnated and playing together in the NBA. The thing that is scary out west is that Portland and Oklahoma both have very good young teams that are capable of going on a role and beating either the Lakers or the Spurs with younger healthier players if everything falls well for them. Chicago may be the same in the east.

[cantthinkofanything]

There are a few things here that are known. The Heat aren't one of them and untill i see a few games I'm not passing much judgement on them, will call them, contender #5 for the moment.

Contender 1. Lakers v Spurs. This is the team that the spurs are made to compete against.

Artest is 1 year older slower and fatter without getting any smarter or saner. SF advantage slightly to the spurs with Jefferson which is kinda bad.

Center Bynum V Dice Advantage Lakers though not huge if Bynum is healthy.... If Bynum is healthy.

Power Forward Duncan v Gaso.....l Duncan is old Gasol is soft and doesn't handle pressure matchup cancels.

SG Manu v Kobe advantage lakers This one is interesting though

PG Parker v D. Fisher, Parker should walk away with this.

Bench Spurs v Odom and Barnes Advantage spurs


Contender #2 Celtics v Spurs classic match-ups all depends on health

Contender #3 The Magic v Spurs

This is what happens when you don't teach a really promising center how to use skills. Please stop it with basing your whole offence on a movement 3pt shot or on a dunk by Howard. This comes down to staying home on the shooters, and frustrating Howard. Having someone he can't push around in Blair is huge and yes Blair will foul out first but will also get Howard 3 or four fouls in the first half then he either plays tentative or fouls out with 10 to 15 minutes left in close games when facing either Duncan or Splitter. He will also collect fouls quickly altering Manu and Parker drives


Dallas can be dismissed, and the Suns are done. The Heat aren't going to be the dream team reincarnated and playing together in the NBA. The thing that is scary out west is that Portland and Oklahoma both have very good young teams that are capable of going on a role and beating either the Lakers or the Spurs with younger healthier players if everything falls well for them. Chicago may be the same in the east.

Well thought out and nicely explained. Thanks for the analysis.

[TheManFromAcme]

Maybe I'm biased because I lived there for a short while, IDK but I don't think they are dead. I don't have to kiss ass. Go in to the NBA forum, I have been arguing for two days straight (off and on)that kobe is greater than Tim. I just respect duncan a lot and Manu as a champion as well. Would I bet my mortgage on the spurs? ...hell no!!!! But would I bet my mortgage against them either ... probably not. A paycheck maybe. Like I said I'm confident lakers will beat them but I see the spurs as a tough out. I at least expect a much tougher series if they get there than 2008 ...you don't agree?

Also you guys don't think duncan has one last run left in him? With help, how do we not know if he pulls a Kareem in 1985?


Same here. I agree with Killa.
Can't sleep on the Spurs if for anything Tim, Tony and Manu have tasted LOB gold. Besides the Lakers, who else in the west has this distinction?

These old soilders, at least for Manu and Tim, still have some fight.

[TheManFromAcme]

There is one contender: Miami Heat.

All the other teams aren't in the same league than them.



:lol

[LakeShow]

Please. Be honest, don't try to kiss ass.

:lol I was thinking the same thing. What's up with that Killa? :lol

The Spurs have two chances to beat the Lakers, slim and none!

[TD 21]

I don't know people continue to list Duncan as a PF. He's strictly a C at this point. Even when paired with Splitter, Duncan will be guarding the C.

So it's not "Duncan vs Bosh" and it'll only be "Duncan vs Gasol" when Odom is in the game and Gasol shifts to C.

[LakeShow]

Maybe I'm biased because I lived there for a short while, IDK but I don't think they are dead. I don't have to kiss ass. Go in to the NBA forum, I have been arguing for two days straight (off and on)that kobe is greater than Tim. I just respect duncan a lot and Manu as a champion as well. Would I bet my mortgage on the spurs? ...hell no!!!! But would I bet my mortgage against them either ... probably not. A paycheck maybe. Like I said I'm confident lakers will beat them but I see the spurs as a tough out. I at least expect a much tougher series if they get there than 2008 ...you don't agree?

Also you guys don't think duncan has one last run left in him? With help, how do we not know if he pulls a Kareem in 1985?

No! His best days are behind him.

[alchemist]

I see it like this:

Heat
Lakers
.
.
.
.
Orlando
.
rest of the league.

[Gagnrath]

I don't know people continue to list Duncan as a PF. He's strictly a C at this point. Even when paired with Splitter, Duncan will be guarding the C.

So it's not "Duncan vs Bosh" and it'll only be "Duncan vs Gasol" when Odom is in the game and Gasol shifts to C.

Ok I'm fine with that Then you have Duncan V Bynum if he's not hurt hum Duncan wins this or Duncan v Gasol if Bynum is hurt even and Splitter/Blair over Odom. Odom is very well rounded and not a bad player but gets shoved around by Blair inside and he's not so good outside as to overcome that, and isn't as good as Splitter at the finesse stuff as seen in head to head match-ups.

[Man In Black]

And here we go...

2003-2004 Dwyane Wade started his NBA Career. Let's just get to facts.
Does anyone realize that DWade's Time in MIA vs. The Spurs is a losing one?
11-4-2003 SAS 1 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231104024
Spurs win 80-73
Ginobili is the player of the game, with no Tim or Tony. DWade didn't play due to a hip issue.

12-6-2003 SAS 2 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231206014
Spurs win 86-70
Both Ginobili & Wade play but it's other guys who pick up the scoring.

11-12-2004 SAS 3 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241112024
Spurs win 93-84
Ginobili blows up for 29, 7 & 7. Add 6 Steals & a 1 block
Wade out with a sprained ankle.

2-13-2005 SAS 3 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250213014
Spurs lose 92-96
Both players score well. Wade has 28 points on 26 shots. Ginobili has 24 points on 17 shots.

12-7-2005 SAS 4 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251207024
Spurs win 98-84
Wade scores 31 on 20 shots. Ginobili goes for 27 on 16 shots.

1-20-2006 SAS 5 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260120014
Spurs win 101-94
Wade goes for 36 on 29 shots. Spurs cruise thanks to TP's 38 on 18 shots.

11-22-06 SAS 6 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261122024
Spurs win 106-86
Wade goes for 18 on 17 shots. Ginobili goes for 17 on 9 shots. See the pattern here? In terms of effectiveness...it's no contest.

2-11-07 SAS 6 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270211014
Spurs lose 100-85
Wade goes for 26 on 19 shots. Ginobili goes for 26 on 16 shots.

11-7-07 SAS 7 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107024
Spurs win 88-78
Wade out with a DNP. Ginobili scores 25 on 12 shots.

1-24-08 SAS 8 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280124014
Spurs win 90-89
Wade goes for 27 on 23 shots. Ginobili goes for 18 on 12 shots.

11-7-08 SAS 8 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281107024
Spurs lose 99-83
Wade goes for 33 on 25 shots. Manu is out due to off-season ankle surgery.

1-5-09 SAS 9 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105014
Spurs win 91-84
Wade scores 24 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 10 on 14 shots.

12-31-09 SAS 10 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291231024
Spurs win 108-78
Wade scores 16 on 18 shots.
Ginobii scores 18 on 13 shots.

3-16- SAS 11 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300316014
Spurs win 88-76
Wade scores 28 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 22 on 14 shots.

People say that Miami will be so much better with their new pieces. They will be better. But it's cohesiveness that rules the roost. The Spurs don't have as many key pieces to integrate as Miami does. As it stands, Miami isn't close to finalizing a roster. San Antonio is just trying to figure out the end of the bench.

Oh and 1 other thing.
2 different indexes.
PER for career Since the end of last season:
Ginobili 21.65
Wade 25.67

Points Created for career:
Ginobili
13605-5457.5=8147.5 / 15380 minutes played = .530 Per Minute

/ 553 Games Played = 24.60 Per Game

Wade
18714-7842=10872 / 17717 minutes played = .614 Per Minutes
/ 471 Games Played = 23.08 Per Game

Damn lies and statistics. It is what it is. If Manu played in New York, he'd be a Demi-God. But since he's in San Antonio, he's just a solid, gritty player. Check out the stats. If it's a big game, Ginobili will have a say!

[Killakobe81]

:lol I was thinking the same thing. What's up with that Killa? :lol

The Spurs have two chances to beat the Lakers, slim and none!

Nada is wrong with me. I always respected tim, and my little debate downstairs (yes i still think kobe is still greater) did remind me how great duncan was and maybe just maybe he has a little left.

Remember, I said Lakers win, but it would be TOUGHER than 2008, when we won 4-1. Do you think we SWEEP the Spurs this year? My guess we win in 6 ...but duncan has reach down in to the well to make that happen. That is why I asked if folks think he has at least ONE, just ONE playoff run left?

[Killakobe81]

And here we go...

2003-2004 Dwyane Wade started his NBA Career. Let's just get to facts.
Does anyone realize that DWade's Time in MIA vs. The Spurs is a losing one?
11-4-2003 SAS 1 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231104024
Spurs win 80-73
Ginobili is the player of the game, with no Tim or Tony. DWade didn't play due to a hip issue.

12-6-2003 SAS 2 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231206014
Spurs win 86-70
Both Ginobili & Wade play but it's other guys who pick up the scoring.

11-12-2004 SAS 3 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241112024
Spurs win 93-84
Ginobili blows up for 29, 7 & 7. Add 6 Steals & a 1 block
Wade out with a sprained ankle.

2-13-2005 SAS 3 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250213014
Spurs lose 92-96
Both players score well. Wade has 28 points on 26 shots. Ginobili has 24 points on 17 shots.

12-7-2005 SAS 4 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251207024
Spurs win 98-84
Wade scores 31 on 20 shots. Ginobili goes for 27 on 16 shots.

1-20-2006 SAS 5 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260120014
Spurs win 101-94
Wade goes for 36 on 29 shots. Spurs cruise thanks to TP's 38 on 18 shots.

11-22-06 SAS 6 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261122024
Spurs win 106-86
Wade goes for 18 on 17 shots. Ginobili goes for 17 on 9 shots. See the pattern here? In terms of effectiveness...it's no contest.

2-11-07 SAS 6 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270211014
Spurs lose 100-85
Wade goes for 26 on 19 shots. Ginobili goes for 26 on 16 shots.

11-7-07 SAS 7 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107024
Spurs win 88-78
Wade out with a DNP. Ginobili scores 25 on 12 shots.

1-24-08 SAS 8 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280124014
Spurs win 90-89
Wade goes for 27 on 23 shots. Ginobili goes for 18 on 12 shots.

11-7-08 SAS 8 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281107024
Spurs lose 99-83
Wade goes for 33 on 25 shots. Manu is out due to off-season ankle surgery.

1-5-09 SAS 9 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105014
Spurs win 91-84
Wade scores 24 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 10 on 14 shots.

12-31-09 SAS 10 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291231024
Spurs win 108-78
Wade scores 16 on 18 shots.
Ginobii scores 18 on 13 shots.

3-16- SAS 11 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300316014
Spurs win 88-76
Wade scores 28 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 22 on 14 shots.

People say that Miami will be so much better with their new pieces. They will be better. But it's cohesiveness that rules the roost. The Spurs don't have as many key pieces to integrate as Miami does. As it stands, Miami isn't close to finalizing a roster. San Antonio is just trying to figure out the end of the bench.

Oh and 1 other thing.
2 different indexes.
PER for career Since the end of last season:
Ginobili 21.65
Wade 25.67

Points Created for career:
Ginobili
13605-5457.5=8147.5 / 15380 minutes played = .530 Per Minute

/ 553 Games Played = 24.60 Per Game

Wade
18714-7842=10872 / 17717 minutes played = .614 Per Minutes
/ 471 Games Played = 23.08 Per Game

Damn lies and statistics. It is what it is. If Manu played in New York, he'd be a Demi-God. But since he's in San Antonio, he's just a solid, gritty player. Check out the stats. If it's a big game, Ginobili will have a say!

IDK about demi-god ...but like i said I dont think Wade is >>>>>>better than Manu. It's more like >> or even just >. But again he has to be healthy. Last few years he has not been at his best when the spurs have got bounced.

[peskypesky]

With Splitter and a seasoned Dejuan Blair, I think we're in good shape and I have no problem saying the Spurs are contenders.

[Man In Black]

That's just it. Why does NO ONE TALK ABOUT WADE'S INJURY ISSUES? I've pointed out that just against SAS in 14 games since he started in the A, he missed 3 games. Manu only missed 1. If Ginobili was a Knick or a Celtic, he'd be deemed a great player instead of just a good one. >> or > does not apply to Wade when his MIA teams haved faced Manu's. It more the other way around. Can you guys not see the ass kicking going on against MIA in that post?

[2Cleva]

Nada is wrong with me. I always respected tim, and my little debate downstairs (yes i still think kobe is still greater) did remind me how great duncan was and maybe just maybe he has a little left.

Remember, I said Lakers win, but it would be TOUGHER than 2008, when we won 4-1. Do you think we SWEEP the Spurs this year? My guess we win in 6 ...but duncan has reach down in to the well to make that happen. That is why I asked if folks think he has at least ONE, just ONE playoff run left?

Tougher than 08? You do remember Sasha, Walton, and Radmanovic were playing key roles then don't you? No Ariza either. Now its Artest, Bynum (hopefuly), Blake and Barnes.

Duncan may have one playoff run in him - but he could have used it all up in the 1st round last season.

[2Cleva]

There are a few things here that are known. The Heat aren't one of them and untill i see a few games I'm not passing much judgement on them, will call them, contender #5 for the moment.

Contender 1. Lakers v Spurs. This is the team that the spurs are made to compete against.

Artest is 1 year older slower and fatter without getting any smarter or saner. SF advantage slightly to the spurs with Jefferson which is kinda bad.

Center Bynum V Dice Advantage Lakers though not huge if Bynum is healthy.... If Bynum is healthy.

Power Forward Duncan v Gaso.....l Duncan is old Gasol is soft and doesn't handle pressure matchup cancels.

SG Manu v Kobe advantage lakers This one is interesting though

PG Parker v D. Fisher, Parker should walk away with this.

Bench Spurs v Odom and Barnes Advantage spurs



Last first

LA has a better bench than SA. Odom, Barnes, Brown, and Blake tops the best off SA's bench easily.

Gasol sure didn't look soft against Boston or Howard? Not handling pressure is not the Pau of today.

And if healthy, Bynum has a huge advantage over Dice.

[Trill Clinton]

Are they contenders? Is a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?

[LakeShow]

Nada is wrong with me. I always respected tim, and my little debate downstairs (yes i still think kobe is still greater) did remind me how great duncan was and maybe just maybe he has a little left.

Remember, I said Lakers win, but it would be TOUGHER than 2008, when we won 4-1. Do you think we SWEEP the Spurs this year? My guess we win in 6 ...but duncan has reach down in to the well to make that happen. That is why I asked if folks think he has at least ONE, just ONE playoff run left?

Yeah, I think we sweep or five games max. I don't think he has one left. He used it last season and got sweep. Duncan had a great career but its over.

[Ace]

And here we go...

2003-2004 Dwyane Wade started his NBA Career. Let's just get to facts.
Does anyone realize that DWade's Time in MIA vs. The Spurs is a losing one?
11-4-2003 SAS 1 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231104024
Spurs win 80-73
Ginobili is the player of the game, with no Tim or Tony. DWade didn't play due to a hip issue.

12-6-2003 SAS 2 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231206014
Spurs win 86-70
Both Ginobili & Wade play but it's other guys who pick up the scoring.

11-12-2004 SAS 3 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241112024
Spurs win 93-84
Ginobili blows up for 29, 7 & 7. Add 6 Steals & a 1 block
Wade out with a sprained ankle.

2-13-2005 SAS 3 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250213014
Spurs lose 92-96
Both players score well. Wade has 28 points on 26 shots. Ginobili has 24 points on 17 shots.

12-7-2005 SAS 4 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251207024
Spurs win 98-84
Wade scores 31 on 20 shots. Ginobili goes for 27 on 16 shots.

1-20-2006 SAS 5 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260120014
Spurs win 101-94
Wade goes for 36 on 29 shots. Spurs cruise thanks to TP's 38 on 18 shots.

11-22-06 SAS 6 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261122024
Spurs win 106-86
Wade goes for 18 on 17 shots. Ginobili goes for 17 on 9 shots. See the pattern here? In terms of effectiveness...it's no contest.

2-11-07 SAS 6 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270211014
Spurs lose 100-85
Wade goes for 26 on 19 shots. Ginobili goes for 26 on 16 shots.

11-7-07 SAS 7 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107024
Spurs win 88-78
Wade out with a DNP. Ginobili scores 25 on 12 shots.

1-24-08 SAS 8 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280124014
Spurs win 90-89
Wade goes for 27 on 23 shots. Ginobili goes for 18 on 12 shots.

11-7-08 SAS 8 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281107024
Spurs lose 99-83
Wade goes for 33 on 25 shots. Manu is out due to off-season ankle surgery.

1-5-09 SAS 9 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105014
Spurs win 91-84
Wade scores 24 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 10 on 14 shots.

12-31-09 SAS 10 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291231024
Spurs win 108-78
Wade scores 16 on 18 shots.
Ginobii scores 18 on 13 shots.

3-16- SAS 11 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300316014
Spurs win 88-76
Wade scores 28 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 22 on 14 shots.

People say that Miami will be so much better with their new pieces. They will be better. But it's cohesiveness that rules the roost. The Spurs don't have as many key pieces to integrate as Miami does. As it stands, Miami isn't close to finalizing a roster. San Antonio is just trying to figure out the end of the bench.

Oh and 1 other thing.
2 different indexes.
PER for career Since the end of last season:
Ginobili 21.65
Wade 25.67

Points Created for career:
Ginobili
13605-5457.5=8147.5 / 15380 minutes played = .530 Per Minute

/ 553 Games Played = 24.60 Per Game

Wade
18714-7842=10872 / 17717 minutes played = .614 Per Minutes
/ 471 Games Played = 23.08 Per Game

Damn lies and statistics. It is what it is. If Manu played in New York, he'd be a Demi-God. But since he's in San Antonio, he's just a solid, gritty player. Check out the stats. If it's a big game, Ginobili will have a say!
Comparing the Manu of old to the Wade of today won't help much in actual game. Also should consider the fact the Spurs WERE a great defensive team and they could focus on Wade, therefore forcing him to take tough shots. Now the Spurs are simply not as good defensively and who would the Spurs focus on Lebron or Wade? Manu has always had Parker and Duncan which could help make any player's life easier. Don't get me wrong Manu is great and when he's on, he is just as good as the top players in the league but he's just not consistent.

[Man In Black]

For you guys who say it's over. Question, if this was Kareem in 1985, would you say it was over then? Even if his game declined, KAJ was still a threat in the post on both sides of the court. And what happened after everyone else picked their game up, while KAJ's stats went down, the results speak Championship that season.

That's the same thing that could happen for San Antonio! Open your damn eyes.

Let's take an article about a team that was on the tail end of it's dynasty and substitute some names and see how it looks.



Beginning with training camp and throughout the season, Coach Pop pushed them like a man obsessed. He was Captain Ahab, and a 5th championship was the elusive great whale. On occasion the crew came close to mutiny, but somehow Popovich knew when to lighten up just enough to keep them going.

Manu Ginobili was the Lamborghini in the Spurs' motorcade. At 6-foot-6, he was incredibly shifty and swift. No man his size in the league had an easy time of staying with him. Without a doubt, Tony Parker was the guard who drove the HoltCat machine, but Ginobili was the wing who made it go.

Other people stepped forward to do their parts as well. George Hill began to realize his potential at shooting guard. He led San Antonio in 3 Point scoring, averaging 13.7 points over the regular season while shooting .487 from the field. Also vital was the development of DeJuan Blair at power forward. He didn't shoot much, but his shot selection and accuracy were outstanding. He rebounded well and continued to learn the intricacies of low-post defense.

Tony Parker once again played brilliantly, although he missed 10 games at midseason due to a groin injury. If there was a problem for the Spurs, it was Tim Duncan's age. His decline was apparent throughout the season, but Tiago Splitter's presence off the bench provided just enough patchwork to keep the Spurs effective in the post.

I took those paragraphs from an article that talked about about the last title of the Showtime era. That team just had enough balance to get a title in a 7 game Final against the Pistons. Despite a declining legend in KAJ. Tim Duncan isn't as old as you guys wish him to be. Add the rest he'll get, the added help from stronger post help and he can be better than KAJ was in the last title for Showtime.

Original Article here:
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19871988.html

[LakeShow]

For you guys who say it's over. Question, if this was Kareem in 1985, would you say it was over then? Even if his game declined, KAJ was still a threat in the post on both sides of the court. And what happened after everyone else picked their game up, while KAJ's stats went down, the results speak Championship that season.

That's the same thing that could happen for San Antonio! Open your damn eyes.

Let's take an article about a team that was on the tail end of it's dynasty and substitute some names and see how it looks.



I took those paragraphs from an article that talked about about the last title of the Showtime era. That team just had enough balance to get a title in a 7 game Final against the Pistons. Despite a declining legend in KAJ. Tim Duncan isn't as old as you guys wish him to be. Add the rest he'll get, the added help from stronger post help and he can be better than KAJ was in the last title for Showtime.

Original Article here:
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19871988.html

When you get a Magic Johnson or another superstar then I will take back that its over for the spurs. Ginosbli and Parker wont get it done.

[Killakobe81]

Comparing the Manu of old to the Wade of today won't help much in actual game. Also should consider the fact the Spurs WERE a great defensive team and they could focus on Wade, therefore forcing him to take tough shots. Now the Spurs are simply not as good defensively and who would the Spurs focus on Lebron or Wade? Manu has always had Parker and Duncan which could help make any player's life easier. Don't get me wrong Manu is great and when he's on, he is just as good as the top players in the league but he's just not consistent.

agreed and true.

[superbigtime]

Spurs are going to have a nice season and win 52-55 games IMO. I'm excited to watch the youth continuing to develop and see how the unknown commodities pan out. But the Spurs are not contenders, realistically. A long shot at best. The team is small and not physical enough; the Spurs are a finesse team. The defense has waned, the bench does not have clutch players except for Manu, and there are the new guys to figure out and incorporate.

The big three are not what they once were. Tim can not dominate consistently anymore and doesn't demand a double team anymore. Manu has to have the planets aligned to play well. Tony will be nice because he's playing for a contract.

RJ and Bonner will do just what most people expect and that is underachieve and choke, respectively. And don't forget the coach is senile and does nothing to the team's advantage. And the league has no love for the Spurs.

[Man In Black]

When you get a Magic Johnson or another superstar then I will take back that its over for the spurs. Ginosbli and Parker wont get it done.

See, this is where you and I differ. You think it'll take another superstar. I disagree. I know it will take is stronger post help and better defensive effort on the wings. Since the Spurs can't work the Grizz for the other Gasol via collusion, I expect that bringing in the best big outside of the NBA, in Splitter to bring huge dividends. Health, and strong balanced play are the most key thing for this Spurs team.

Also... I just wanted to point out the following 2 stats:
Tim Duncan Points Created:
2008-2009 2678 Positives - 949.5 Negatives = 1728.5 PC TOTAL / 2523 Minutes Played = .685 or / 75 Games Played = 23.05
2009-2010 2591 Positives - 840 Negatives = 1751 PC TOTAL / 2438 Minutes Played = .718 or / 78 Games Played = 22.45
So comparing Tim's last 2 seasons, this past season, a season many of you haters say his production tailed off, well - Stats tell us that he actually played better per minute he was on court and stayed almost as effective on a per game basis.

Pau Gasol Points Created:
2008-2009 2725 Positives - 792 Negatives = 1933 PC TOTAL / 2999 Minutes Played = .645 or / 81 Games Played = 23.86
2009-2010 2292 Positives - 687 Negatives = 1605 PC TOTAL / 2403 Minutes Played = .668 or / 65 Games Played = 24.69
Compared to Pau Gasol, Tim isn't that far off from him. Playing better per minute overall and again almost as effective on a per game basis.

It's not an everything stat, just like PER, there isn't a way to quantify position defense or shots affected by length, both of these guys are good at that. However, it's a level playing field and the stats accumulated are what they are.

So when people say that Tim has nothing left in the tank, I counter with, if that's the case...then why are his scores so similar to Gasol?

[DPG21920]

The same way that you (and others) dismiss the Spurs chances against LA and Miami without waiting to see how things shake down this coming season. Everyone is operating on assumptions and opinions at this point.

But the thing is, we saw virtually the same team get swept in the 2nd round, so we have a reasonable basis for comparison. Also, the point was that we are operating on assumptions (some with more logic than others due to some concrete evidence) and that you can't use opinions as fact (WE WILL BE SOOOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN LAST YEAR!!!!!!!!!), especially when right now there is really nothing to back that up.


Come on, man . . . I never said Splitter was on Pau's level. You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. What I DID say is that having another legit big will HELP defend teams who have strong frontlines and take a lot of pressure off Duncan. I'm not saying Splitter is the "golden god" 2nd coming of D-Rob, but he will be a big help. Add Splitter to a team that will have a healthy TP and Manu to START the season, Blair and RJ in their 2nd year, an ever-improving Hill in his third and a couple of high potential young guys . . . and I see an improved team. I don't know what's going to happen . . . nobody does.

I did not misinterpret anything. You stated, as a rebuttal to an argument, that the Spurs would be significantly better. I asked you why you thought that assuming the Spurs made no major upgrades (like bringing in a Pau level player).


The Spurs struggled mightily last season. I'm not denying that. They squeeked into the playoffs, over-extended themselves against Dallas and ran into a revenge-fueled buzzsaw in Phoenix. Blaming Bonner and Jefferson for that debacle is like spitting on a fire to out it out. Duncan, Ginobili and Parker (and Popovich) deserve most of the blame. Their job is to step up in those situations and take the pressure off the supporting cast. When the big three are rolling in the playoffs, the role players/bench perform better. The entire team lost that series.

The big 3 did their job (TP was injured, what do you expect?). :lol At saying the 15M dollar man has no responsibility when that is exactly why they brought him in (as insurance in case someone did not do well and to add to the fire power).

You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. I did not blame everything on Bonner and RJ. I said they played a large role in the team getting swept and they got extended. Is any of that wrong?



I think you just answered your own question there, dude . . . I'm not trying to pass off anything as simple fact. I just don't see the RJ situation as dire and hopelessly unfortunate as you seem to. I don't think he is a bad fit and even if he was, it is Pop's job to correct that. Other coaches do it ALL THE TIME . . . I saw Pop and Tim give up on this team a lot last season because things weren't going well and it wasn't "easy". They got a little too comfortable the past few years and they had to re-learn that becoming a championship team is hard work. In my opinion, they will have a better roster this season and more help. Again, I'm not saying they are going to win a championship, but they belong in the conversation.

It was obvious that I was saying I am using opinion. That was the point. My point was you are arguing like your opinion is fact. You say things that are statements of fact (the team IS much better than last year, Things WILL fall in line for RJ...) and I dispute that using something concrete (last season).

You saw Pop and Tim give up? lol wut? Pop can't make RJ laterally quick and good at 3 point shooting. He can't change the whole system to suit a 5th option. That would be bad coaching. Where do you draw the line of teams being "in the conversation"? Do the Spurs have a legit shot as things stand today using logic? No. So how are they in the convo? They are still a very good team, but there is a huge difference in teams that need a ton of factors to go their way vs teams that just have to play their game.





Huh? Mind if I do a J?

Again, I was saying you dismiss people's arguments because they are opinion, while using only opinion yourself. I know we all use opinion, but some opinions are based on logic and facts. Some are not. Just because we all use opinion, does not mean all opinion is weighted the same.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Absolutely yes! This years team is the most talented and deepest team that I have seen in 7 years. With Duncan, Dice, Splitter and Blair the front court is one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. A three guard combo of Manu, Parkern and Hill is unmatched by any other team in the league. Plus, you throw in Jefferson, Neal and Blair and you have a solid 10 player rotation. Our bench was the leading scoring bench last year and will probably lead the league again.

Best frontcourt + best backcourt + best bench = Contenders

[mingus]

Manu and Tim had a win last year in LA at the end of the season which basically convinced me that there's still something left in the tank. that's not even counting the fact that they split last year. '08 was close despite the fact that Manu averaged 2 ppg due to inuries.

LA doesn't scare me. scared is in '01 and '02 when i knew we'd get our asses handed to us. they've got no one to guard Manu. Artest cant handle him. no one to guard Parker either (LOL Blake). if Duncan can stay healthy and rested come playoffs, he can at least go toe-to-toe w/ Gasol. that's potentially three matchups that can go in favor of the Spurs in the starting lineup alone (Parker > Blake/Fisher; Manu>Artest; and Duncan>Gasol) is there any other team in the league that can say that they have that? nope. We'll also have the likes of McDyess, Blair (who's only 20 and will surely show improvement from last year), Hill (who will also improve), Anderson, RJ, Neal, and Splitter as role players, which help fill spacing and height issues we had from last year and essentially did us in; and that's a roster that is potentially 10 players deep.

the HUGE misconception is that the Spurs are too old. they are if you want to believe everything the media has to say. the truth is it was more of not having certain things last year aside from the big three that did the Spurs in, namely height and 3-point shooting.

it's a joke that people don't have the Spurs as #2 in the West.

OKC? LOL (Spurs played them very well last year)
Portland? haven't been able to materialze into anything serious
Phoenix? w/ Amare they're nothing
Dallas? Spurs beat them pretty good last year
Denver? see how they lost by 30 at home to the Spurs. next
Houston? THE only legitimate threat in the west besides LA to the Spurs.

that leaves the Spurs in 2nd to LA in the West. look at last years record and the year before against LA and you see a pretty even matchup. the Spurs have actually matched up (even better now) with LA.

then count the fact that there's plenty of 'chip experience on the team and the Spurs are a threat to LA, without a doubt. nobody on here has given a valid explenation as to why they're not. it's ridiculous. at least put forth a decent argument and show that you've got a few working neurons.

[ohmwrecker]

But the thing is, we saw virtually the same team get swept in the 2nd round, so we have a reasonable basis for comparison. Also, the point was that we are operating on assumptions (some with more logic than others due to some concrete evidence) and that you can't use opinions as fact (WE WILL BE SOOOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN LAST YEAR!!!!!!!!!), especially when right now there is really nothing to back that up.

Do I really have to say "in my opinion" or "IMHO" everytime? It should be fairly obvious that I am giving my opinion. There is no more reason to believe that the Phoenix series will have a positive or negative bearing on how the Spurs will perform this season. That is my opinion.



I did not misinterpret anything. You stated, as a rebuttal to an argument, that the Spurs would be significantly better. I asked you why you thought that assuming the Spurs made no major upgrades (like bringing in a Pau level player).

It is my opinion that the Spurs will be better. I am backing up that opinion with the following: Tiago Splitter, while not a "Pau level player", IS a legit big that the Spurs did not have last season. I feel that, even at the lowest of expectations that he will provide a significant presence to the frontline and take a good amount of pressure off of Duncan. Also, that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will be in good health to start the season should be a huge factor. If the Spurs can get off to a good start, the rest of the season should not be the uphill struggle it was last season. Parker is also in a contract year and I expect a resemblance to his All-Star form. I also expect Blair, Hill and Jefferson to improve. There is no reason to think that they will not. I expect Bonner to play less and be used, mostly, in situational/match-up manner. I expect less small ball.
Most importantly, there are no "wily veterans" like Bogans/Finley/Mason on the squad for Pop to fall back on when things get rough. He will be forced to go to Anderson/Gee/Neal who can only get better with real PT. I mean, that was the bone of contention with Pop's attitude toward Hairston and Mahinmi last year, right?



The big 3 did their job (TP was injured, what do you expect?). :lol At saying the 15M dollar man has no responsibility when that is exactly why they brought him in (as insurance in case someone did not do well and to add to the fire power).

You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. I did not blame everything on Bonner and RJ. I said they played a large role in the team getting swept and they got extended. Is any of that wrong?

How so? Yes. TP was injured . . . so was Manu . . . remember the huge bandage swathed across his face? Duncan just ran out of gas and he took big shots to his bum knee in the Mavs and Suns series. What's your point? In that situation I didn't expect them to win. I was disappointed, sure, but I didn't really expect a different result. The point is, if the big three are not performing close to 100%, you can't expect the role players and the bench to carry a series. No team in the league is going to win a playoff series in that kind of scenario. The Spurs just got their ass whipped, plain and simple . . . it happens, pick yourselves up and move on. Use it as motivation. That's what professionals do. Why should that have any negative effect on this season?





It was obvious that I was saying I am using opinion. That was the point. My point was you are arguing like your opinion is fact. You say things that are statements of fact (the team IS much better than last year, Things WILL fall in line for RJ...) and I dispute that using something concrete (last season).

It is no more obvious for you than it is for me. It is your perception that I am stating things that I feel are obviously opinions as fact. The problem is yours, not mine. We are not going to agree on RJ. We've been over this countless times. You believe the situation is hopeless and I do not. I also do not agree that last season is any indication, or gives concrete insight on how this season will pan out. How many times have you seen a team fail in the playoffs only to see an better result the next without adding an all-star level (although you could argue for Parker) player?


You saw Pop and Tim give up? lol wut? Pop can't make RJ laterally quick and good at 3 point shooting. He can't change the whole system to suit a 5th option. That would be bad coaching. Where do you draw the line of teams being "in the conversation"? Do the Spurs have a legit shot as things stand today using logic? No. So how are they in the convo? They are still a very good team, but there is a huge difference in teams that need a ton of factors to go their way vs teams that just have to play their game.

Pop gave up by choosing Bogans/Bonner/Mason when they weren't working, rather than take a chance on Hairston/Mahinmi/Temple. Duncan didn't physically give up, but I have never seen him so psychologically defeated and exasperated as he was last season. I don't believe the system has to change significantly to incorporate RJ. I think most of his issues were mental and are easily fixed with his understanding of the system and confidence being raised. Call me crazy, but I believe the Spurs are one of 5 teams that has a legit shot to win a championship. Are the odds stacked against them? Sure, they are.

Again, just my opinion.



Again, I was saying you dismiss people's arguments because they are opinion, while using only opinion yourself. I know we all use opinion, but some opinions are based on logic and facts. Some are not. Just because we all use opinion, does not mean all opinion is weighted the same.

Again, your perception. That just didn't happen. I can have a difference of opinion with someone without you interpreting that as me stating facts. At least, I should be able to . . . I have defended my opinion with the same level of logic as anyone else and just because it doesn't jive with your's does not make it less valuable. Believe me, I view some of the things you say as ridiculous as you probably view mine . . . That's just how it goes sometimes, dude.

In my opinion.

[TD 21]

Do I really have to say "in my opinion" or "IMHO" everytime? It should be fairly obvious that I am giving my opinion. There is no more reason to believe that the Phoenix series will have a positive or negative bearing on how the Spurs will perform this season. That is my opinion.

:rollin

Here's the thing about the logic based on "the Suns swept the Spurs, so how can the Spurs possibly beat the Lakers?" that the vast majority fail to realize: The season before last, the Suns missed the playoffs altogether. Granted, Stoudemire was injured down the stretch, but even with him healthy for most of the season they were a fringe playoff team destined to finish 8th or 9th. One season later, without, on paper at least, any significant additions, they were in the Conference Finals and gave the Lakers a fairly good run.

Who's more likely to do that: This Spurs team, or that Suns team from a season ago? I'd say this Spurs team. So if the Suns of a season ago could do it, then why couldn't this Spurs team?


It is my opinion that the Spurs will be better. I am backing up that opinion with the following: Tiago Splitter, while not a "Pau level player", IS a legit big that the Spurs did not have last season. I feel that, even at the lowest of expectations that he will provide a significant presence to the frontline and take a good amount of pressure off of Duncan. Also, that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will be in good health to start the season should be a huge factor. If the Spurs can get off to a good start, the rest of the season should not be the uphill struggle it was last season. Parker is also in a contract year and I expect a resemblance to his All-Star form. I also expect Blair, Hill and Jefferson to improve. There is no reason to think that they will not. I expect Bonner to play less and be used, mostly, in situational/match-up manner. I expect less small ball.
Most importantly, there are no "wily veterans" like Bogans/Finley/Mason on the squad for Pop to fall back on when things get rough. He will be forced to go to Anderson/Gee/Neal who can only get better with real PT. I mean, that was the bone of contention with Pop's attitude toward Hairston and Mahinmi last year, right?

Exactly. Even if statistically he's underwhelming, the mere presence of having a guy who's 6-11 and mobile, with a developed understanding of the game, will make a difference. Maybe not enough to propel this team to a championship, but they will be better. I don't care whether he's played a game in the NBA yet, how could he not be an improvement defensively over Blair, who was the backup center last season?

Too soon to say. I still think Hayes will be signed in the next two weeks.


It is no more obvious for you than it is for me. It is your perception that I am stating things that I feel are obviously opinions as fact. The problem is yours, not mine. We are not going to agree on RJ. We've been over this countless times. You believe the situation is hopeless and I do not. I also do not agree that last season is any indication, or gives concrete insight on how this season will pan out. How many times have you seen a team fail in the playoffs only to see an better result the next without adding an all-star level (although you could argue for Parker) player? :tu


Pop gave up by choosing Bogans/Bonner/Mason when they weren't working, rather than take a chance on Hairston/Mahinmi/Temple. Duncan didn't physically give up, but I have never seen him so psychologically defeated and exasperated as he was last season. I don't believe the system has to change significantly to incorporate RJ. I think most of his issues were mental and are easily fixed with his understanding of the system and confidence being raised. Call me crazy, but I believe the Spurs are one of 5 teams that has a legit shot to win a championship. Are the odds stacked against them? Sure, they are.

Again, just my opinion.:tu


Again, your perception. That just didn't happen. I can have a difference of opinion with someone without you interpreting that as me stating facts. At least, I should be able to . . . I have defended my opinion with the same level of logic as anyone else and just because it doesn't jive with your's does not make it less valuable. Believe me, I view some of the things you say as ridiculous as you probably view mine . . . That's just how it goes sometimes, dude.

In my opinion.:tu

I got a question. Is this all in your opinion? Because if that's not written every couple of lines, I can't possibly decipher whether it's in your opinion, someone else's opinion or whether you're attempting to pass it off as fact.

[HarlemHeat37]

TBH, if Bynum isn't healthy, which is pretty much a given, then it wouldn't be that surprising to see some of the teams in the West, including the Spurs, beat LA, if everything goes right for the team in question..

The problem here is that the Spurs would have very little chance of beating Miami IMO..

The Spurs don't even have 1 decent 1 on 1 perimeter defender right now(Manu is when he doesn't have as much offensive responsibility, but he will have to), so expecting them to guard the 2 best players in the NBA in their primes is very unrealistic IMO..

[ohmwrecker]

The problem here is that the Spurs would have very little chance of beating Miami IMO..

Does anyone have a chance of beating Miami . . . in your opinion?

[Man In Black]

TBH, if Bynum isn't healthy, which is pretty much a given, then it wouldn't be that surprising to see some of the teams in the West, including the Spurs, beat LA, if everything goes right for the team in question..

The problem here is that the Spurs would have very little chance of beating Miami IMO..

The Spurs don't even have 1 decent 1 on 1 perimeter defender right now(Manu is when he doesn't have as much offensive responsibility, but he will have to), so expecting them to guard the 2 best players in the NBA in their primes is very unrealistic IMO..

MIA outside of Bosh, doesn't have any real quality bigs. They have length in Ilgauskas, undersized youth in Anthony & Haslem, but that doesn't seem to daunting. That alone would kill them unless you think the refs will give Wade & James an all-day pass to the FT line.

[picc84]

TBH, if Bynum isn't healthy, which is pretty much a given, then it wouldn't be that surprising to see some of the teams in the West, including the Spurs, beat LA, if everything goes right for the team in question..

The problem here is that the Spurs would have very little chance of beating Miami IMO..

The Spurs don't even have 1 decent 1 on 1 perimeter defender right now(Manu is when he doesn't have as much offensive responsibility, but he will have to), so expecting them to guard the 2 best players in the NBA in their primes is very unrealistic IMO..

Disagree with the first part of your post, but the 2nd is true.

To the person who posted the stats of Manu h2h with Wade, the playoffs are a different story. Manu may match Wade's output in 2 games of a 7 game series, at most. Add in to that the loss of Bowen, and you have Ginobili and Jefferson guarding Lebron and Wade, with a slow Duncan in the middle patrolling the paint. The Heat are going to destroy the Spurs, more than the Lakers would.

Saying that, with the way the west has gotten weaker, I expect SA to compete for a spot in the WCF. Melo will be gone, the Suns will have a major drop off with Hedo from Amare, I think the Spurs take the Mavs in a series should they meet again. Houston would be right there but who knows what will happen with Yao.

The Thunder will be the main competition to make the west finals against LA. Perhaps the Blazers as a wildcard. That's 3 contenders for the WCF, but I don't see any of them getting past an LA thats anywhere near healthy.

[LakeShow]

See, this is where you and I differ. You think it'll take another superstar. I disagree. I know it will take is stronger post help and better defensive effort on the wings. Since the Spurs can't work the Grizz for the other Gasol via collusion, I expect that bringing in the best big outside of the NBA, in Splitter to bring huge dividends. Health, and strong balanced play are the most key thing for this Spurs team.

Also... I just wanted to point out the following 2 stats:
Tim Duncan Points Created:
2008-2009 2678 Positives - 949.5 Negatives = 1728.5 PC TOTAL / 2523 Minutes Played = .685 or / 75 Games Played = 23.05
2009-2010 2591 Positives - 840 Negatives = 1751 PC TOTAL / 2438 Minutes Played = .718 or / 78 Games Played = 22.45
So comparing Tim's last 2 seasons, this past season, a season many of you haters say his production tailed off, well - Stats tell us that he actually played better per minute he was on court and stayed almost as effective on a per game basis.

Pau Gasol Points Created:
2008-2009 2725 Positives - 792 Negatives = 1933 PC TOTAL / 2999 Minutes Played = .645 or / 81 Games Played = 23.86
2009-2010 2292 Positives - 687 Negatives = 1605 PC TOTAL / 2403 Minutes Played = .668 or / 65 Games Played = 24.69
Compared to Pau Gasol, Tim isn't that far off from him. Playing better per minute overall and again almost as effective on a per game basis.

It's not an everything stat, just like PER, there isn't a way to quantify position defense or shots affected by length, both of these guys are good at that. However, it's a level playing field and the stats accumulated are what they are.

So when people say that Tim has nothing left in the tank, I counter with, if that's the case...then why are his scores so similar to Gasol?

It is pretty obvious that Timmie no longer has the hops nor does he have the ability to defend the paint adequately.

Parker and Ginosbli have been handled by the lakers in the past and last time I checked the Lakers added even more defenders to shut those players down.

As far as Splitter being a savior. Forget about it. From what I've seen of him he will be pushed around like a rag doll early in his career in the NBA. Don't expect much from him this season. Maybe in a few years he'll toughen up but for right now he wont be much of a factor against the Lakers.

[Man In Black]

It is pretty obvious that Timmie no longer has the hops nor does he have the ability to defend the paint adequately.

Parker and Ginosbli have been handled by the lakers in the past and last time I checked the Lakers added even more defenders to shut those players down.

As far as Splitter being a savior. Forget about it. From what I've seen of him he will be pushed around like a rag doll early in his career in the NBA. Don't expect much from him this season. Maybe in a few years he'll toughen up but for right now he wont be much of a factor against the Lakers.

There you go with that past tense shit that you're wont to do. Let me rephrase your own post to make my point more clearly.

It is pretty obvious that Timmy no longer has the hops but with continued improvement from DeJuan Blair, the contributions of the best Bigman in Europe, and a re-focused Antonio McDyess, he does have the ability to defend the paint adequately because with that kind of help, he actually works less harder.

Parker and an Injured Ginobili have been handled by the Lakers in the past and last time I checked the Lakers have added possible defenders who could attempt to shut these guys down. A fast PG is still DFish's kryptonite. And don't tell me Steve Blake is an ALL-NBA Defender because you'd be lying. Matt Barnes is almost as cuckoo as Artest. It may work, but then again, he could be tossed off the court with but a mean look.

As far as Splitter being a savior. it could happen. Lakers fan hope that he's not. Forget about it. From what I've seen of him he will be pushed around like a rag doll early in his career in the NBA but he could be a quick learner and then who knows?.Most fans don't expect much from him this season. Then again, if Tiago Splitter was a Laker, he'd be the reason to get rid of often injured Andrew Bynum. I mean a big guy with a solid back to the basket game is hard to find. I expect in a Maybe in a few years he'll toughen up but for right now he wont be much of a factor against the Lakers.

See...you can twist it any way you want it. We hope for success against the P & G, you hope that S & B goes away. The fact that either could happen is what makes the season worth watching.

[mingus]

the Laker's record of 2-2 last year agains the Spurs does saya absolutely nothing about their "dominance" over the Spurs. neither does their struggles against OKC, whom the Spurs were 3-1 against last season, or their struggles with Boston, who the Spurs beat in Boston without Parker.

lol @ LA fans wanting the Spurs to "go away." LA hasn't dominated anybody of import in the playoffs. in fact teams have pushed them to their limits - teams that the Spurs are arguably better than. i don't know what makes anyone think the Spurs want do the same or actually beat them, esp. since the Spurs have the know how to do it.

some of you LA fans are grasping at straws with your statements. they're not even arguments. there's no support for any of them. why? because there is no evidence to back of your far-fetched claims. at least try to bullshit something though. i'd give you your due for effort.

[LakeShow]

There you go with that past tense shit that you're wont to do. Let me rephrase your own post to make my point more clearly.

It is pretty obvious that Timmy no longer has the hops but with continued improvement from DeJuan Blair, the contributions of the best Bigman in Europe, and a re-focused Antonio McDyess, he does have the ability to defend the paint adequately because with that kind of help, he actually works less harder.

Parker and an Injured Ginobili have been handled by the Lakers in the past and last time I checked the Lakers have added possible defenders who could attempt to shut these guys down. A fast PG is still DFish's kryptonite. And don't tell me Steve Blake is an ALL-NBA Defender because you'd be lying. Matt Barnes is almost as cuckoo as Artest. It may work, but then again, he could be tossed off the court with but a mean look.

As far as Splitter being a savior. it could happen. Lakers fan hope that he's not. Forget about it. From what I've seen of him he will be pushed around like a rag doll early in his career in the NBA but he could be a quick learner and then who knows?.Most fans don't expect much from him this season. Then again, if Tiago Splitter was a Laker, he'd be the reason to get rid of often injured Andrew Bynum. I mean a big guy with a solid back to the basket game is hard to find. I expect in a Maybe in a few years he'll toughen up but for right now he wont be much of a factor against the Lakers.

See...you can twist it any way you want it. We hope for success against the P & G, you hope that S & B goes away. The fact that either could happen is what makes the season worth watching.

:lol my comment was more to the point. REalistic point! Believe me, I don't know a lakers fan who is worried about the spurs. Spurs fans feel relevant thinking that they do. :lol Imo the spurs window is closed tight.

[LakeShow]

the Laker's record of 2-2 last year agains the Spurs does saya absolutely nothing about their "dominance" over the Spurs. neither does their struggles against OKC, whom the Spurs were 3-1 against last season, or their struggles with Boston, who the Spurs beat in Boston without Parker.

lol @ LA fans wanting the Spurs to "go away." LA hasn't dominated anybody of import in the playoffs. in fact teams have pushed them to their limits - teams that the Spurs are arguably better than. i don't know what makes anyone think the Spurs want do the same or actually beat them, esp. since the Spurs have the know how to do it.

some of you LA fans are grasping at straws with your statements. they're not even arguments. there's no support for any of them. why? because there is no evidence to back of your far-fetched claims. at least try to bullshit something though. i'd give you your due for effort.

:lol Once a proud franchise, now a franchise that takes satisfaction with regular season wins. How the mighty have fallen. lol What are the Lakers and Spurs records in the playoffs? Yeah, thought so. :lol

[Man In Black]

:lol my comment was more to the point. REalistic point! Believe me, I don't know a lakers fan who is worried about the spurs. Spurs fans feel relevant thinking that they do. :lol Imo the spurs window is closed tight.
Of course you don't know a LAL Fan worried about the Spurs too much. You guys are too busy doing this http://forums.lakersground.net/images/smiles/grouphug.gif in a padded cell.

[LakeShow]

Of course you don't know a LAL Fan worried about the Spurs too much. You guys are too busy doing this http://forums.lakersground.net/images/smiles/grouphug.gif in a padded cell.

and watching our team collect these,
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:
:lobt2::lobt2:

[DPG21920]

Do I really have to say "in my opinion" or "IMHO" everytime? It should be fairly obvious that I am giving my opinion. There is no more reason to believe that the Phoenix series will have a positive or negative bearing on how the Spurs will perform this season. That is my opinion.

Again, missing the point. I know you are stating your opinion. My beef is that you are stating your opinion seemingly as fact and I asked you to justify your opinion.

You make it seem like things are very obvious (implied simple truths), such as saying RJ needs "minor tweaks and things will just fall in line with him". Where do you get this from? What changes does he need to make and why will things just fall into place?

No, the Phoenix series has no impact on how they will perform, but it gives us a gauge on the quality of the team from a true contender standpoint. Getting swept, and bringing back the same team plus rookies is not a recipe for title or true contention in most people's eyes. Do I think they will be better? Yes.

But you did not say that. You stated your strong opinion that they "will be very much improved, enough to be true contenders". That is more than just an opinion and I asked you to justify that thought. Those statements, while maybe an opinion, are spoken more matter-of-factly as if it is a foregone conclusion.





It is my opinion that the Spurs will be better. I am backing up that opinion with the following: Tiago Splitter, while not a "Pau level player", IS a legit big that the Spurs did not have last season. I feel that, even at the lowest of expectations that he will provide a significant presence to the frontline and take a good amount of pressure off of Duncan. Also, that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will be in good health to start the season should be a huge factor. If the Spurs can get off to a good start, the rest of the season should not be the uphill struggle it was last season. Parker is also in a contract year and I expect a resemblance to his All-Star form. I also expect Blair, Hill and Jefferson to improve. There is no reason to think that they will not. I expect Bonner to play less and be used, mostly, in situational/match-up manner. I expect less small ball.
Most importantly, there are no "wily veterans" like Bogans/Finley/Mason on the squad for Pop to fall back on when things get rough. He will be forced to go to Anderson/Gee/Neal who can only get better with real PT. I mean, that was the bone of contention with Pop's attitude toward Hairston and Mahinmi last year, right?

It is not illogical to think that Tiago will help, I think that, but there are some questions that need to be answered about how his game will transfer (see the ARG/BRA game where Oberto pushed him around). That combined with the fact that Pop has to rely on unproven rookies with huge question marks surrounding their game (Gee & Neal especially) means that it is not very reasonable to assume the Spurs have done enough to be true contenders. Could they end up that way? Yes. Does that mean it makes sense to state that matter-of-factly now? No.

With regards to my thoughts on Pop last year, that was under different circumstances. I wanted him to play the young guys after we knew the Spurs were not true contenders. You are using unknowns to make an argument for contention and framing your opinions around that. I used them as a "lets see what we have because we are not contending" when I had the benefit of seeing the on court product (Bogans & Mason) failing.



How so? Yes. TP was injured . . . so was Manu . . . remember the huge bandage swathed across his face? Duncan just ran out of gas and he took big shots to his bum knee in the Mavs and Suns series. What's your point? In that situation I didn't expect them to win. I was disappointed, sure, but I didn't really expect a different result. The point is, if the big three are not performing close to 100%, you can't expect the role players and the bench to carry a series. No team in the league is going to win a playoff series in that kind of scenario. The Spurs just got their ass whipped, plain and simple . . . it happens, pick yourselves up and move on. Use it as motivation. That's what professionals do. Why should that have any negative effect on this season?

You don't expect them to win, and even though they were hurt, the big 3 did enough to not get swept. If the other players (15M man & Bonner & others) showed up, it would have been more competitive. RJ was supposed to be a part of the Big 4, so quit passing all responsibility off of him.

But that is not the main point of that series. The series itself means nothing with how the games are played this year, but it is a barometer on where the Spurs stand if their goal is to win a title; which most assume is their goal.

That series showed that you can't really count on the Big 3 as much as you used to. They are still great, but they need more help. That was RJ's job and he failed. Knowing that, the Spurs had to make some significant moves in order to contend. I understand they were limited, and I am ok with that, but don't sell the very mediocre moves (if it was not for Tiago's great contract, this would have been a disaster of an off season between RJ & Bonner) as enough. There is no logical argument for it at this point. Sure, Duncan's knees could magically hold up. Sure, RJ's lateral quickness could return and he could develop a good 3 PT shot. Sure, Manu could play hard and not get injured. Are those things likely? Probably not. There are definitely going to be some bumpy moments with the big 3 if the last few seasons are an indicator.


It is no more obvious for you than it is for me. It is your perception that I am stating things that I feel are obviously opinions as fact. The problem is yours, not mine. We are not going to agree on RJ. We've been over this countless times. You believe the situation is hopeless and I do not. I also do not agree that last season is any indication, or gives concrete insight on how this season will pan out. How many times have you seen a team fail in the playoffs only to see an better result the next without adding an all-star level (although you could argue for Parker) player?

:lol It's not a problem. It is an observation. It is your problem that you are stating things matter-of-factly as if they will very obviously fall into place, when the logic really does not say so.

I don't think the RJ situation is hopeless. I think he can improve on some things. But I don't think the things the Spurs really need (an aggressive, above average perimeter defender that has a very good 3 PT shot) are going to magically appear in RJ's game because he either does not have the physical ability and/or he has never had the ability.

Ummmmmm, I have not seen many teams fail in the playoffs (get swept), then add some rookies and no all-star talent then vault themselves into true contender status. Can you name some?



Pop gave up by choosing Bogans/Bonner/Mason when they weren't working, rather than take a chance on Hairston/Mahinmi/Temple. Duncan didn't physically give up, but I have never seen him so psychologically defeated and exasperated as he was last season. I don't believe the system has to change significantly to incorporate RJ. I think most of his issues were mental and are easily fixed with his understanding of the system and confidence being raised. Call me crazy, but I believe the Spurs are one of 5 teams that has a legit shot to win a championship. Are the odds stacked against them? Sure, they are.

Again, just my opinion.

:lol I think you can argue the exact opposite. I can't believe you are saying Pop and Tim gave up in any way shape or form. There is literally nothing to back that up. Sticking with Bogans/Bonner/Mason was Pop not giving up and realizing the team had no shot. Putting Malik/Ian/Temple in would have been a white flag. He said I am not doing that and I am going to stick with the only thing that has enough upside to make a run.

I wanted Ian & Malik, but not seeing them was Pop not giving up, not the other way around.

RJ's 3PT shooting (he had one year that was good and it appears to be an outlier) & lack of lateral speed problems were mental?

Your 5 teams are (I think): MIA, LA, BOS, SA & ???. If you can argue SA (based on the logic you are using), how can you not argue OKC, UTA, ORL and a few other teams?


Again, your perception. That just didn't happen. I can have a difference of opinion with someone without you interpreting that as me stating facts. At least, I should be able to . . . I have defended my opinion with the same level of logic as anyone else and just because it doesn't jive with your's does not make it less valuable. Believe me, I view some of the things you say as ridiculous as you probably view mine . . . That's just how it goes sometimes, dude.

In my opinion.

Like I said, I know this is all opinion, most of the time that is implied, but when you go around saying things like the team is dramatically improved and things will easily fall in line for RJ, that goes beyond just your standard opinion. That seems like something that you think is going to happen quite surely, when that does not appear to be the case at all.

[2Cleva]

It's really simple.

SA has no exploitable advantage over LA. Best they have is Tony Parker (who isn't as quick as he used to) and LA always shuts him down in the 2nd half and scoring PGs have never beat LA in a series. Speed gives them trouble in the open court but not in the half-court playoff setting.

No where else does SA have the edge. Not in experience. Not in chemistry. Not inside play. Not in perimeter play. Not on defense. Not on offense. Not coaching. Not in talent. Not in depth or bench.

A homer's eye may give SA a nod or equal at any of those but most objective wouldn't. Only the trio in Miami and Boston prevents this season from being a forgone conclusion, injuries not withstanding.

All teams being healthy and the West is a lock. In the past 3 years only one WC team pushed them to the limit and that was thanks to being 2 different teams in the same series.

[DeadlyDynasty]

if they had scola they'd be contenders :stirpot:

[ElNono]

Not contenders, IMO. I think we're a lock to make the playoffs if healthy, but first/second round fodder, depending on the opposition.

[Man In Black]

It's really simple.

No it's not. It's perceived as simple, but time and again, we've seen the simplicity get thrown out the window. Don't you LAL fans remember 2004 and the ass-kicking the Pistons gave the Lakers then? Those Lakers were penciled in as champions. But eventually eliminated in a 4-1 drubbing.



SA has no exploitable advantage over LA. Best they have is Tony Parker (who isn't as quick as he used to) and LA always shuts him down in the 2nd half and scoring PGs have never beat LA in a series.
Tony Parker should be well rested this season, 1st time ever he hasn't competed for National Team Play. It's the same thing Gasol is doing and like Gasol, Parker is expected to be at his level best this entire season. You can't say he isn't as quick as he used to be, that has yet to be quantified. All you can say is that to you, he doesn't seem to be. But, you could be very wrong on this.



Speed gives them trouble in the open court but not in the half-court playoff setting.

No where else does SA have the edge. Not in experience. Not in chemistry. Not inside play. Not in perimeter play. Not on defense. Not on offense. Not coaching. Not in talent. Not in depth or bench.


Say this stuff over and over. BIG FUCKING DEAL. There are a lot more Davids than there are Goliaths. Do I need to point out that the Lakers haven't won every title in history? The LAL had all that same shit you point out up there against Detroit in 2004. So to say that that gets the W already penciled in, is wrong. The season needs to be played. Why you guys act like other teams fans need to prostrate themselves in the presence of Purple & Gold bourgeoisie is beyond me. Fact, the Spurs and their fans are going to make sure that you guys earn it, to get past them...it will require a full pitch battle.



A homer's eye may give SA a nod or equal at any of those but most objective wouldn't. Does objective mean Laker or Heat Fan?



Only the trio in Miami and Boston prevents this season from being a forgone conclusion, injuries not withstanding.

Why is Boston considered such a threat when, if one analyzes the way a team is built, San Antonio and Boston are eerily similar except that San Antonio's best big is not dragging 1 leg with a hitch like Boston's best big. They have a quick PG in Rondo who passes better but shoots worse than TP does. They have a robust, undersized big in Davis. The Spurs counter with their own undertall hulk in Blair. A scoring wing in Pierce who finds a way to score, just like the Spurs have a scoring wing in Manu who finds a way to make plays. While Perkins is a physical post player, the combination of Splitter and McDyess aren't going to just wilt at the sight of him or any LAL big. Expect them to fight, because that's what they do.



All teams being healthy and the West is a lock.
No, it's not a lock. This holding of the LOB ends at 2. There will be no 2nd 3peat for Bean and no 4th 3peat for PJax. Book it. There will be a DAVID standing on top of the podium at the end of the season.


In the past 3 years only one WC team pushed them to the limit and that was thanks to being 2 different teams in the same series.
I can't wait for both the Spurs and Lakers to come in healthy. Rather than talk about it as being impossible, why don't you just let them play and see what happens. You could be right....but I assure you, we're going to light into you guys so hard if you are wrong, and that's a possibility.

Remember, there are more Davids than Goliaths!

[Brazil]

Some spurs fans are expecting too much of Splitter or Anderson, I don't see them making such a difference next season.
There is nothing right now that can question LAL dominance in the west.

Nevertheless like MIB said games are here to be played, spurs are now on the wrong side of their run but it would be a mistake to consider we have no shot at all. A team with duncan even an old duncan will always have a shot.

[2Cleva]

No it's not. It's perceived as simple, but time and again, we've seen the simplicity get thrown out the window. Don't you LAL fans remember 2004 and the ass-kicking the Pistons gave the Lakers then? Those Lakers were penciled in as champions. But eventually eliminated in a 4-1 drubbing.

That team was just put together and had obvious major chemistry issues. This team's core has been humming along and locked up the West the past 3 seasons. Also note - even a younger Spurs teams couldn't beat LA in 04 - no way they do in 11.



Tony Parker should be well rested this season, 1st time ever he hasn't competed for National Team Play. It's the same thing Gasol is doing and like Gasol, Parker is expected to be at his level best this entire season. You can't say he isn't as quick as he used to be, that has yet to be quantified. All you can say is that to you, he doesn't seem to be. But, you could be very wrong on this.

Parker should be rested - fine. As you said Pau and Kobe will be as well. But Kobe and Pau are focused on the 3-peat. Every word about Parker is he's focused on NY and worried about Hill keeping his spot.


Say this stuff over and over. BIG FUCKING DEAL. There are a lot more Davids than there are Goliaths. Do I need to point out that the Lakers haven't won every title in history? The LAL had all that same shit you point out up there against Detroit in 2004. So to say that that gets the W already penciled in, is wrong. The season needs to be played. Why you guys act like other teams fans need to prostrate themselves in the presence of Purple & Gold bourgeoisie is beyond me. Fact, the Spurs and their fans are going to make sure that you guys earn it, to get past them...it will require a full pitch battle.

I won't disrespect you or Spurs fans spirit. And no LA hasn't won every one but when its going good (and it has never been going better than now) they milk it for all its worth.


Does objective mean Laker or Heat Fan?

No objective is recognizing who by far has the most talent and on paper looks the best together. Still has to be played.


Why is Boston considered such a threat when, if one analyzes the way a team is built, San Antonio and Boston are eerily similar except that San Antonio's best big is not dragging 1 leg with a hitch like Boston's best big. They have a quick PG in Rondo who passes better but shoots worse than TP does. They have a robust, undersized big in Davis. The Spurs counter with their own undertall hulk in Blair. A scoring wing in Pierce who finds a way to score, just like the Spurs have a scoring wing in Manu who finds a way to make plays. While Perkins is a physical post player, the combination of Splitter and McDyess aren't going to just wilt at the sight of him or any LAL big. Expect them to fight, because that's what they do.

Boston plays tough defense at every position. Their identity now is what SA's USED to be. SA is a half-court offensive team now (lone exception is Tony Parker) like the old Utah Jazz teams that went ringless.


No, it's not a lock. This holding of the LOB ends at 2. There will be no 2nd 3peat for Bean and no 4th 3peat for PJax. Book it. There will be a DAVID standing on top of the podium at the end of the season.

Considering Kobe has done it once before and Phil has hit the threesome 3 times before, history says LA is ready to put every David in his place.


I can't wait for both the Spurs and Lakers to come in healthy. Rather than talk about it as being impossible, why don't you just let them play and see what happens. You could be right....but I assure you, we're going to light into you guys so hard if you are wrong, and that's a possibility.

Remember, there are more Davids than Goliaths!

When has the last time SA been fully healthy deep in the playoffs? I'm not worried about LA - if they can get on the court they have proven they can gut it out. Pop is doing all he can to make sure SA has some slingshot ammo left but keeps coming up short. Unless the big 3 are sitting out for weeks at a time, they won't make it to the finish line again.

[2Cleva]

04 Lakers lost because a team with better group of bigs, defense, and chemistry beat them. LA was basically out-toughened.

Now LA is the toughest team in the league. LA has the best group of bigs and best chemistry in the league. LA also has one of the best defensive teams.

LA's weaknesses then and in 08 are all now strengths but they still have all the same strengths as before on offense and coaching and execution.

Yeah, I'm feeling real good about the chances of getting back and nothing has happened in the West to change that.

[BadOdor]

Contenders to make it to the second round. At most, WCF.

[Man In Black]

04 Lakers lost because a team with better group of bigs, defense, and chemistry beat them. LA was basically out-toughened.

Now LA is the toughest team in the league. LA has the best group of bigs and best chemistry in the league. LA also has one of the best defensive teams.

LA's weaknesses then and in 08 are all now strengths but they still have all the same strengths as before on offense and coaching and execution.

Yeah, I'm feeling real good about the chances of getting back and nothing has happened in the West to change that.

You say all that, but then I remind you. Your team had to win a game 7. And Boston losing Perkins in Game 6 helped your cause immensely. Had your team had lost that series, would you be saying what you're saying now? Or are you basking in the media afterglow listening to day-after-day media once again penciling a 3peat? It hasn't happened and I'm telling you man...David will slay Goliath yet again this season!

[2Cleva]

You say all that, but then I remind you. Your team had to win a game 7. And Boston losing Perkins in Game 6 helped your cause immensely. Had your team had lost that series, would you be saying what you're saying now? Or are you basking in the media afterglow listening to day-after-day media once again penciling a 3peat? It hasn't happened and I'm telling you man...David will slay Goliath yet again this season!

Boston got to a game 7 thanks to their defense and willingness to play grinding/gutter basketball. They also went on the most hottest and improbable streak in NBA history - considering who they went through to get to the Finals.

There was 1 time after LA beat Orlando that I had doubts LA wouldn't repeat - when they were down by 13 in the 3rd after the Rondo rebound then layup. 2 minutes later that fear was gone.

David over Goliath? Just recognize Goliath is who he is for reason. And if blind faith is what you're relying on like David - then say its such. Because there is no basketball reason to say LA won't be back in the Finals for the 4th time.

[Man In Black]

It's not blind faith, David has tools at his disposal. The basketball reasons are as follows: New players to integrate. Past performance isn't a guaranteed indicator of future performance. Is it just me, or did Kobe Bryant look human in the finals? Perhaps that's why he, like Andrew Bynum, had off-season surgery. No one talks about that. You guys treat Bean like he's indestructible. Who's to say that his game won't regress some? Does LA provide the needed depth to give him time to recoup?

Let's add that while saying that Matt Barnes is a good defender, can we both agree that both on the court and off the court, he hasn't made the smartest of decisions time and again? And When Ron was hungry for a title, now that he has one, will he continue to be a good teammate or will he revert back to Crazy Ron, one could say that driving a mini race car through LA isn't a good thing.

Again, it took Perkins going down, some favorable calls down the stretch and Ron Artest to carry the scoring load for LAL to get that repeat. It's commendable that they won. Let's just not kid ourselves and say that they did it dominatingly because that did not happen.

[2Cleva]

I give credit to Boston - because they are proven warriors and I respect greatly Miami's talent. That's them but that's not San Antonio.

Boston has shown they can nurse injuries all season and dig deep to play their best ball in the playoffs. SA doesn't have that in them anymore - these past 3 years showed that.

[Man In Black]

I give credit to Boston - because they are proven warriors and I respect greatly Miami's talent. That's them but that's not San Antonio.

Boston has shown they can nurse injuries all season and dig deep to play their best ball in the playoffs. SA doesn't have that in them anymore - these past 3 years showed that.

But saying what's happened in the past doesn't mean squat and why so many people latch on that kind of logic is pure folly. We're talking about this season.
Let's use Phoenix as an example. The season before last, out of the playoffs. So what does that mean for people who prognosticate with just that data?
Well, you get people saying that Phoenix still hasn't improved so they're out, or that GHill is a year older and so is Nash and they scrape to make the playoffs, or there is no way they get past their nemesis in San Antonio because the Spurs just became the first #7 seed to take out a #2 seed.
All BS. We saw PHX make the Western Conference Finals. Why did that happen? It's because you had guys that bought in to Coach Gentry and the system and they did what they did. My only though when it comes to losing to LAL is that, Phoenix relented on what they did to San Antonio, when they were playing LAL. It's as if, hey...since they finally got past the Spurs, what happens now, doesn't really matter. And they paid the price.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS SEASON AND THIS SEASON ALONE.

[2Cleva]

But saying what's happened in the past doesn't mean squat and why so many people latch on that kind of logic is pure folly. We're talking about this season.
Let's use Phoenix as an example. The season before last, out of the playoffs. So what does that mean for people who prognosticate with just that data?
Well, you get people saying that Phoenix still hasn't improved so they're out, or that GHill is a year older and so is Nash and they scrape to make the playoffs, or there is no way they get past their nemesis in San Antonio because the Spurs just became the first #7 seed to take out a #2 seed.
All BS. We saw PHX make the Western Conference Finals. Why did that happen? It's because you had guys that bought in to Coach Gentry and the system and they did what they did. My only though when it comes to losing to LAL is that, Phoenix relented on what they did to San Antonio, when they were playing LAL. It's as if, hey...since they finally got past the Spurs, what happens now, doesn't really matter. And they paid the price.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS SEASON AND THIS SEASON ALONE.

The past is typically indicative of the future. Those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it. LA winning the West is hardly a fluke - they've done it 3 years in a row. That's dominance.

OK - we'll throw it all out the window to make you feel better.

Playing the "ignore the past" game we'll go. Everyone is expected to be healthy once the season starts so lets fast forward and assume everyone is healthy enough to play come playoff time.

SA is still too small to have any edge inside on LA. Pau is a better player now than what Duncan is. Bynum is better than Splitter. LO as the 3rd big trumps McDyess. Caracter is likely last season's Blair. So LA continues to control the glass, deny more shots, and score more inside.

On the perimeter, LA has the best defenders of the bunch in Kobe, Artest, Blake, and Barnes. All are better defenders than SA's best in Hill. So that means guys like Ginobili and RJ will have serious trouble scoring. Flip side, who does SA have that can guard Kobe? Artest? No one.

Phil has a coaching edge over any opposition, except Larry Brown. Popovich is great but Phil has owned him in playoff matchups. LA has great team chemistry and execute on offense better than SA.

The lone advantage Spurs fans can honestly claim is Parker's speed. But that's never beat LA in a series by anyone, let alone LA now has a better defender in Blake. And that's if Parker keeps his dominant role on the team - Pop obviously has eyes on Hill taking over.

So "this year" why does SA beat LA? Because they played them well in a couple regular season games? C'mon now. SA can't stop LA and they can't run them out the building and outscore them. That's last year, this year, next year - whenever.

SA is a great franchise and they were a real championship contender but that sun has set.

[2Cleva]

It's really funny you want to ignore the past when your first argument was bringing up the 04 Lakers.

Only way to beat LA is to physically out-toughen them or to have more talent than them. LA is now at Boston's level of physicality so that series goes back and forth as a result. In terms of physical teams - no one else is close to those two.

Miami is trying the talent approach - however they lack size, defense, and depth.

But SA? They aren't more talented than LA nor are they tougher. Hence why they aren't a concern. A respect given to what Duncan has accomplished years ago but he's not that Duncan anymore.

[2Cleva]

It's really funny you want to ignore the past when your first argument was bringing up the 04 Lakers.

Only way to beat LA is to physically out-toughen them or to have more talent than them. LA is now at Boston's level of physicality so that series goes back and forth as a result. In terms of physical teams - no one else is close to those two.

Miami is trying the talent approach - however they lack size, defense, and depth.

But SA? They aren't more talented than LA nor are they tougher. Hence why they aren't a concern. A respect given to what Duncan has accomplished years ago but he's not that Duncan anymore.

[remingtonbo2001]

If we could add a Bruce Bowen (prime), then yes. That's the missing piece. No, not a good perimeter defender. We need a Bruce Bowen clone.

[HarlemHeat37]

2Cleva, can you please stop referring to Steve Blake as a good defender?..he was statistically one of the worst defenders in the NBA last year..he's a terrible defender, I have no idea where you got the idea that he's even decent..

Miami lacks size, but they definitely won't lack defense and depth..Spoelstra's defense finished around the top 5 last year, and now he added Lebron, a massive defensive upgrade..he's a defense-first coach, and he's already shown glimpses of success..

Their depth won't really be a problem in the playoffs IMO, where you have an 8-9 man rotation..they have built their bench enough that it won't be a problem, and fatigue won't be an issue for young guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh..

Size is their major issue, which can be exploited by LA if Bynum is healthy..

The Lakers have a clear lack of athleticism and shooting though..they were both on display last year..they didn't really do anything to fix it..they added Blake, but there isn't a good chance that he tops Farmar's 40% 3-point shooting in the playoffs IMO..everybody else is the same..Kobe and Fisher are inconsistent outside shooters, Barnes is below average, Artest is terrible, Odom is decent for a big, but terrible overall..

The lack of athleticism was very obvious last year, where Kobe clearly struggled against athletic defenders..Artest is extremely slow and can't keep up when running through screens defensively..Shannon Brown is their only athletic wing player, and the only stand-out athlete on the team at this point..this was all on display last year..their size and talent overwhelmed the other teams, for obvious reasons, but they haven't dealt with a team with Miami's talent and athleticism..

[Man In Black]

I refer to the 04 Lakers because, like this year's Lakers, the pundits would have us believe that them winning it all is a stone cold lock. That's why I emphasize that the games need to be played. When they were played then...Detroit gave those Lakers an ass-kicking, did they not?

Okay...

SA is still too small to have any edge inside on LA. Pau is a better player now than what Duncan is.
You say Gasol is better than Duncan. I counter with statistical proof that Duncan's statistical game is almost IDENTICAL to Gasol. For someone who people observe is slowing down, when you look at the stats...they're statistically that close. Do I need to provide a link for that comparison? Do you not think that if Duncan has less to do on one end because he has better help, that he can uptick his game overall accordingly?



Bynum is better than Splitter. I'll give you that, but by how much? And considering that Bynum is a yearly candidate for walking wounded, if he's hurt yet again, doean't that mean that Splitter can level the field based on just coming in healthy? There isn't a history of injuries for Splitter. Whereas for Bynum...his injuries as a big are only exceeded by Greg Oden. You hope that his off-season surgery will keep him upright for a full season, but you can't say that for certain. I think Bynum is a fine player, but I'm not going to give him 1st Team All-NBA just because he wears Forum Blue & Gold. He, like other Laker Centers, who've done it...has to earn it. It won't be bestowed upon him like you guys think it already is.

LO as the 3rd big trumps McDyess. He does, but again by how much? Is it because he has deft ball handling skills? Or is it because he can be counted on to shoot a high percentage and consistently score in the high teens over and over again? FALSE. You mean when I listen to LA Radio and they talk about how Odom goes into a continuous funk, that the media guys are just making shit up? I live out here in So Cal. I can tell you that there are many people who wish Lamar could do more than just handle the ball well and play kissy face with the fat Kardashian. That he could be a consistent threat but you know that he isn't. We don't expect McDyess to do anything other than defend hard, get around 8 rebounds per and hit a 15-17 foot jumper to the tune of 6-8 points a game. So go ahead, say that Odom trumps McDyess. Can he be counted on to do it every time, or maybe just 1 out of every 3 games or so? Let's see out of 23 games played in the playoffs last season, Odom scored less than double figures 13 times. That means he scored less than 10 points more often that he scored more than 10 points.

Against the Celtics, in a 7 game Finals series, he really stepped up and scored the following-5, 3, 12, 10, 8, 8, and in a game 7...7 points. So, really is his advantage as great as you say it is?



Caracter is likely last season's Blair. So LA continues to control the glass, deny more shots, and score more inside. On what basis is it that you can make this statement? Caracter's college scoring and rebound stat averages are as follows:
10.2 PPG
5.5 RPG
DeJuan Blair's college scoring and rebound stat averages are as follows:
13.7 PPG
10.7 RPG
If you tell me that Caracter is faster- I give you agility drill times and 3/4 Court Sprint times for both:
DC: 12.78 ; 3.61
DB: 11.50 ; 3.45

I'll give you that Caracter is taller at 6'9 to 6'7 if you give me the fact that Blair jumps higher, has a longer wingspan and lays claim to the title best offensive rebounder in college statistically for the last 8 years. Plus he's got 1 year already in the NBA, finished All-Rookie, should've outright won the Rookie Challenge MVP and admit it....Caracter is outgunned.



On the perimeter, LA has the best defenders of the bunch in Kobe, Artest, Blake, and Barnes.
I'll give you roaming Kobe, his perimeter position defense isn't as good as you claim it to be, he's solid at roaming so I'll give you that. Artest, isn't as good as he used to be and quicker player can take advantage of him in some situations but he's a good defender. Blake? Seriously? Tell me why- Point out what makes him worthy of being called one of the best defenders of the bunch. When he was wearing a Denver uniform, I could see times when opposing guards would be licking their chops when they see him come out to cover. Let's be real and call him barely competent. The want is there, but the skill is not. Barnes is a thug. At times, he can be kind of Bowen lite, but his game comes with a short fuse. He'd rather jawjack than persevere through a tough match-up. That's why he gets T'd up often.


All are better defenders than SA's best in Hill.
So why Blake again? Point out why. Test the hypothesis. Besides, you're wrong that SA's best defender is Hill. In my mind, it's Ginobili that's the best but you can't have him go Sidney Moncrief all the time because to do so would mean you would only have him at his level best for 20 minutes top. So Pop has to pick and choose his battles. GHill has the want, he's got all kinds of athletic ability and a freakish wingspan. Plus he's got youth but he's not the best. It just seems that way because most media outlets regurgitate how good a defender Pop says he's become.


So that means guys like Ginobili and RJ will have serious trouble scoring. Flip side, who does SA have that can guard Kobe? Artest? No one.
Truthfully-Who has anyone that can guard Kobe? Tony Allen, is that guy on any All-NBA D teams? He did an admirable job, but really, if Bean is on his game, he's going to score. And that's fine. The beauty of Bowen was that he forced Bean to think real hard about what to do next. Should Bean play team and spread the wealth OR, should he just try to go for 35 and show the world how awesome he is against Bowen? See...the deal is, he'd get his 35...but then no one would really talk about how it took 30-33 shots to get that 35. I don't expect any defender the Spurs have to hold Bean to 1 point per shot, but if we could get say...30 points on 25 shots or 1.2 points per shot, then the Spurs are doing that okay. If it's a by committee defensive job that does it. That'd be fine. The sticky point will be selling it to the refs so that when it most counts, the physicality is allowed. Like when Boston does it. RJ needs to buy in. I await to see how his 2nd full season with a training camp will affect his mindset. If he stays in a funk, then that's one I'd concede to you. But it's gotta be played out to the end to earn a letter grade.


Phil has a coaching edge over any opposition, except Larry Brown. Popovich is great but Phil has owned him in playoff matchups. LA has great team chemistry and execute on offense better than SA. Curious, why did you say Larry Brown? Pop's a Brown disciple. Owes his career to Larry, and is close enough to Larry to be Best Man at Larry's wedding. So why did you say Larry Brown? And knowing that Pop is THE BEST DISCIPLE Brown has ever had, doesn't that give Pop enough ammo to form a team, infuse a style of play, and then let the chips fall where they may? I never said Pop was better than Phil, I only said that he's to a point where he's gained as much respect as PJax. If PJax is the best coach in the L with multiple titles, is it a stretch for me to say that Pop is the 2nd best coach in the L with multiple titles? No, it's not. When Mike D'Antoni coached he Suns to a series win against the LAL down 3-1 with PJax at the helm, does that mean that Mike D'Antoni is a better coach than Phil? No, it just meant that his team played better, harder, and willed their way to a 7 game series and eliminated a Kobe and Phil-led team. David won that time.



The lone advantage Spurs fans can honestly claim is Parker's speed. But that's never beat LA in a series by anyone, let alone LA now has a better defender in Blake.
Should've been enough in 04 but an unusual circumstance negated that. The possibility existed yet again in 08, but a controversial no-call swung the favor to LA and that was that. Again, don't tell me Blake is a better defender. Prove that he is. Tell us why. Then back it up. You have to or otherwise we'll just call BS.


And that's if Parker keeps his dominant role on the team - Pop obviously has eyes on Hill taking over.
It's the bolded part that gets me. Do you read The New York Daily News or The New York Post? What makes it obvious? Is it the part where RC says that they want TP here?

“The speculation on Tony is placed outside of our organization and not internally,” said Buford, who said he wouldn’t have to even answer questions about Parker’s future had he not had injuries and that the Spurs “would be crazy not to want a player like (Parker) in our program for a long time.”
Or is the fact that Big City Media only talks rumors but never talks about how TP himself said the following:


"Again, I want to make it clear: I want to stay in San Antonio," Parker said Wednesday, according to the Express-News.

Or is it this:


Parker remains optimistic that he and the Spurs will reach an agreement on a contract extension this fall, according to the report.
"I'm happy in San Antonio," Parker said, according to the report. "My wife and I are very happy. I built my home base here, so why wouldn't I want to be here?"




So "this year" why does SA beat LA? Because they played them well in a couple regular season games? C'mon now. SA can't stop LA and they can't run them out the building and outscore them. That's last year, this year, next year - whenever.

SA is a great franchise and they were a real championship contender but that sun has set.

This remains to be seen, as I've said...These games need to be played. There will be no real answers until the year is played out. Anything more than that is just speculation. Besides, you have now been tasked with forming a hypothesis that proves why Steve Blake(r) is all of a sudden, in consideration for the ALL-NBA D Team.

[2Cleva]

2Cleva, can you please stop referring to Steve Blake as a good defender?..he was statistically one of the worst defenders in the NBA last year..he's a terrible defender, I have no idea where you got the idea that he's even decent..

He's better than Fisher. That's all LA needs.


Miami lacks size, but they definitely won't lack defense and depth..Spoelstra's defense finished around the top 5 last year, and now he added Lebron, a massive defensive upgrade..he's a defense-first coach, and he's already shown glimpses of success..

They lack quality depth. Their best shotblocker now is in Boston. LeBron is great at steals and blocks weakside but not man-to-man defense regularly. Also Miami played at a slow tempo last year - which helps D stats. The D will be good though, weak at protecting the basket though - especially from the bigs. They will need Wade and LeBron helping in the post alot - which frees up shooters.


Their depth won't really be a problem in the playoffs IMO, where you have an 8-9 man rotation..they have built their bench enough that it won't be a problem, and fatigue won't be an issue for young guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh..

Agreed that depth isn't as important then. Key is whether they get wore down in the season.


Size is their major issue, which can be exploited by LA if Bynum is healthy..

Even with just Pau and LO - LA will beat up Miami inside but yeah - if Drew is healthy, Miami will get ripped a new one.


The Lakers have a clear lack of athleticism and shooting though..they were both on display last year..they didn't really do anything to fix it..they added Blake, but there isn't a good chance that he tops Farmar's 40% 3-point shooting in the playoffs IMO..everybody else is the same..Kobe and Fisher are inconsistent outside shooters, Barnes is below average, Artest is terrible, Odom is decent for a big, but terrible overall..

LA is extremely athletic for their bigs, agree less than ideal on the perimeter - primarily due to age. Brown, Barnes and Ebanks is for that. But Farmar didn't help at all last playoffs. But Blake is around 40 for his career and we all know what Fisher can do. And do you really want to test Kobe? Play off any of them and they can kill you - ask Boston about leaving Artest open.


The lack of athleticism was very obvious last year, where Kobe clearly struggled against athletic defenders..Artest is extremely slow and can't keep up when running through screens defensively..Shannon Brown is their only athletic wing player, and the only stand-out athlete on the team at this point..this was all on display last year..their size and talent overwhelmed the other teams, for obvious reasons, but they haven't dealt with a team with Miami's talent and athleticism..

LA however can play physical on the perimeter thanks to the respect their defenders get and the shotblocking frontline behind them. They will force Wade and LeBron to the help. It will be almost like the 2004 Pistons or old school Spurs - since all of them play physical defense, the refs let it all go. Its not like Sasha when he tries to be tough - foul on him. Kobe, Fisher, Blake, Artest, and Barnes reputation will give them a lot of leeway.

[2Cleva]

MIB - Yahoo and Sporting News combined for an NBA preview I picked up yesterday - it addresses this exactly - I'll scan and post it sometime this weekend.


I refer to the 04 Lakers because, like this year's Lakers, the pundits would have us believe that them winning it all is a stone cold lock. That's why I emphasize that the games need to be played. When they were played then...Detroit gave those Lakers an ass-kicking, did they not?

Let me quote the aforementioned article


So the question becomes: What will it take to knock off the Lakers? First and foremost, it will take toughness, followed closely by length, a dedication to defense, and at least one player who can harass Bryant into working harder than he would like to find his points. The last two teams to beat the Lakers in the Finals -- the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons and the 2007-08 Celtics -- had all of those attributes, as did the 2009-10 Celtics, who lost to LA in 7 games...

The formula is clear and until a WC team comes with that complete package - I'm not worried. Closest would be Denver but they are so screwed up mentally, chemistry, and health-wise - they take themselves out of the picture.

SA doesn't have any of those things.

Until they do, they aren't true contenders.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

In order for the Spurs to contend this year, they are going to have to improve the defense. In their championship years, the Spurs' opponents shot below 45%. Against the 2004 Spurs, oppenents shot only 41% against them. These Spurs will no longer keep their opponents without a field goal for 6 min stretches, but they have more firepower so they will not have to for every game. But,for the Spurs to advance to the finals, they should hold their opponents to around 43% or 44%

[DPG21920]

Look, the Spurs will be a very good team. I am fully expecting TP to have a monster year which will help tremendously. Even though Tiago might struggle, his size will really help. I am excited about the young guys the Spurs have.

But imho, when you are talking about true contenders, you have to look at one thing: Does the team need bad stuff to happen to other teams in order to have a chance? The true contenders do not. True contenders need a few things to go right for their team, but they do not have to rely on bad things happening to other teams.

The Spurs, as things seemingly stand today, need things to go really right for them along with things going really wrong for other teams in their way (LA, MIA, BOS, ORL, ...). That is why I don't see them as a true contender. Could things change? Sure. It would just be really, really surprising based on the off-season.

[Man In Black]

He's better than Fisher. That's all LA needs. So it is because Blake wears P & G that he is now, all of a sudden, a solid defender? You need to take his name off the list as one of LA's best defenders.

MIB - Yahoo and Sporting News combined for an NBA preview I picked up yesterday - it addresses this exactly - I'll scan and post it sometime this weekend.
I await the scan, I'm sure it'll be a good read, and depending upon who wrote it, I migh question their basis for what they've written for both teams. Outside of Johnny Ludden, the rest of the writers might be biased in so many ways.



SA doesn't have any of those things.

Until they do, they aren't true contenders.
What you're saying is that, seemingly...SA doesn't have any of those things. They have players with that potential.
Let's break out your article quotes:

So the question becomes: What will it take to knock off the Lakers? First and foremost, it will take toughness, followed closely by length, a dedication to defense, and at least one player who can harass Bryant into working harder than he would like to find his points. The last two teams to beat the Lakers in the Finals -- the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons and the 2007-08 Celtics -- had all of those attributes, as did the 2009-10 Celtics, who lost to LA in 7 games...
Toughness? This is Pop and he'll implore for toughness and the team, outside of Bonner(he's had 2 chances now to come up big when needed most), will respond accordingly. The bulk of the team has had to deal with adversity in 1 form or another. Even the rookie, James Anderson. And in some form, they've responded splendidly. IS it enough? I'm not sure, it could be but reality is, it will take some time to prove if it's enough. That's Theory and Practice at work. There is nothing that I would like to see than a classic series where both teams are at full strength and it goes 7 and a clutch basket is needed for the W. I hope it's Silver & Black, of course, that gets it.

[2Cleva]

Look, the Spurs will be a very good team. I am fully expecting TP to have a monster year which will help tremendously. Even though Tiago might struggle, his size will really help. I am excited about the young guys the Spurs have.

But imho, when you are talking about true contenders, you have to look at one thing: Does the team need bad stuff to happen to other teams in order to have a chance? The true contenders do not. True contenders need a few things to go right for their team, but they do not have to rely on bad things happening to other teams.

The Spurs, as things seemingly stand today, need things to go really right for them along with things going really wrong for other teams in their way (LA, MIA, BOS, ORL, ...). That is why I don't see them as a true contender. Could things change? Sure. It would just be really, really surprising based on the off-season.

This.


MIB - SA may be mentally tough but so is Utah. A team has to be physically tough - strong, physical, willing to bloody the opponents nose for 48 minutes and fight tooth and nail on every possession to beat LA. Spurs aren't even close.

[dunkman]

The 10-11 Spurs are finally solid at every position. They look very much as the 02-03 Spurs.

The Lakers had no shot at passing the Spurs in '08 but the addition of Gasol changed that team from day 1.

In the same way, the Spurs improved a lot the past season and this season that trend continues. Duncan is an 20/10 player. Manu played at super-star level before the broken nose made him lose some confidence. Parker has super-star capability too, if he's healthy. Splitter has similar to Gasol potential. Hill is already playing at near sixth man of the year level in his second year. Jefferson is near all-star talent, Blair is capable of 20/20's, Dice is a good player and those players will be in their second year with the Spurs. Anderson and Neal are capable players too.

The Spurs can put Duncan / Splitter / Blair and Dice on Gasol / Bynum / Odom, the Lakers won't have advantages there. Manu / Jefferson / Hill / Anderson are going to make Kobe work for his points and guard Artest. Parker / Hill / Neal are superior to Fisher/Blake. The Lakers can't introduce Barnes as they had Ariza to guard Parker, because they can't switch Fisher to guard Jefferson as they did with Bowen.

Phil has 11 titles which deserves respect. But it's foolish to think that Pop after 4 title runs doesn't know how to have the things done. The '02-03 title passed trough the Lakers that were 99% favorites and superior in talent. Many thought that the Spurs had no chance, no team in the NBA could stop Shaq and Kobe. But the reality was other.

[FilSpursFan]

Are the Spurs still contenders?

Of course! Every season they tried to...

[dunkman]

This.


MIB - SA may be mentally tough but so is Utah. A team has to be physically tough - strong, physical, willing to bloody the opponents nose for 48 minutes and fight tooth and nail on every possession to beat LA. Spurs aren't even close.

The Lakers are obviously trying to be tough, but so far, that would be only Artest, Fisher, Kobe and Barnes. Bynum plays hard but he's always injured, being a very young man. Gasol and Odom being bigs, would rather avoid contact. Blake, Sasha and Walton are the antithesis of tough.

In the Spurs, tough are: Dice, Blair, Jefferson, Duncan, Parker and Hill. Manu plays hard but is sometimes injured. Of the rookies, Anderson is known to be tough, Splitter is known to be very physical too.

[quentin_compson]

Jefferson tough? Richard Jefferson??

[DaDakota]

As a Rockets fan, from my perspective you guys remind me of the post championship teams with Dream.

We had a good team, and were in the mix, but not a favorite.

And it all came down to health.

DD

[dunkman]

Jefferson tough? Richard Jefferson??

If we talk about Jefferson the player, he can guard physical SF's effectively without being constantly posted up too near the basket. He goes to the line very often. He's average rebounder. His defense isn't bad either. To do something like that, a player must have contact and take hard fouls, which soft players avoid or if don't, tend to injure and miss too many games.


As a Rockets fan, from my perspective you guys remind me of the post championship teams with Dream.

We had a good team, and were in the mix, but not a favorite.

And it all came down to health.

DD

I think that what makes different the Spurs is that Hakeem, Barkley and Pippen were past their primes. While Duncan can't dominate games as before and Manu tends to be injured more frequently, Parker and Jefferson are efficient players in their prime that could take the offensive load if needed.

The Spurs also have the infusion of many young players like Hill, Blair, Splitter and probably Anderson. One example of this is Hill's performance against the Mavs.

[Muser]

Caracter is likely last season's Blair

:lmao

[2Cleva]

Ya'll can't handle the truth.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162251

[ohmwrecker]

Caracter is likely last season's Blair

:lmao


He will be lucky to make the squad.

[ohmwrecker]

Again, I was saying you dismiss people's arguments because they are opinion, while using only opinion yourself. I know we all use opinion, but some opinions are based on logic and facts. Some are not. Just because we all use opinion, does not mean all opinion is weighted the same.

I wanted to address your response in a more timely manner, but, honestly, I grew weary of the argument. It's not a discussion about whether or not the Spurs should be considered contenders or not anymore. It is really about your misinterpretation of the intent of my comments. In my opinion, the Spurs are legit contenders. I gave the reasons to back up my opinion and having a semantic argument over the validity of those reasons does not interest me.
If you want to address a specific, topic related issue, I will be glad to discuss that with you, I will gladly answer you, but I am not interested in clarifying what are obviously, to anyone else, my opinions. I did not dismiss anyone, I merely disagreed.

[DPG21920]

Holy late reply! That must have been a good j, dude. Let's just get the season here.

[Muser]

Blairs rebounding shits on caracters rebounding.

[ohmwrecker]

Holy late reply! That must have been a good j, dude. Let's just get the season here.

It was . . . I actually replied a lot earlier, but my session timed out because I was doing other things and I lost my post. C'est la vie. Let's do this shit!

[DaDakota]

I think that what makes different the Spurs is that Hakeem, Barkley and Pippen were past their primes. While Duncan can't dominate games as before and Manu tends to be injured more frequently, Parker and Jefferson are efficient players in their prime that could take the offensive load if needed.

The Spurs also have the infusion of many young players like Hill, Blair, Splitter and probably Anderson. One example of this is Hill's performance against the Mavs.

You know that is a very good point, we traded away Cassell and Horry to get Barkley so if we kept them that would have been a more apt comparison.

And Pippen never played for the Rockets...

;)

I was thinking of Hakeem, Clyde and Drexler....Pippen....is dead to us.

DD

[DJ Mbenga]

caracter already made the team, but he is no blair. more like a future baby davis which isnt such a bad thing for a second rounder. the spurs have historically relied on 2 things. defense and 3 point shooting. if their defense is magical again then they have a shot, but if it isnt they cant live by the 3.

maybe one thing the spurs solved is dice wont get raped all the time by odom cause they seemed to have trouble with his speed. splitter isnt a quick guy but he adds a new dimension to the team. the problem is if splitter is on the floor then odom will be too and those pick an rolls arent so easy anymore as it would be with a big like bynum who lacks that mobility to defend(he mostly shows well on P&R)
and the biggest thing for me is just macthups. ginobli cant guard kobe, and plus i think they might want to save him from foul trouble so what do they have to do? put jefferson on him or go smaller and bring in hill leaving ginobli in either scneario to guard artest. hopefully teams are healthy when they face each other. i only think i happened once this past season correct?

[Man In Black]

Ya'll can't handle the truth.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162251
C'mon now 2Cleva. I told you, you can't expect us to genuflect just because you THINK you're right. I've given you many credible reasons as to why the Spurs can still be a part of the championship equation. You didn't explain why YOU consider Blake(r) to be a standout defender. Blake or Fisher, it doesn't matter, TP will chew either up for breakfast. It's not like TP's never faced Blake in the playoffs. When Blake was in Denver, TP only average 18 Points per game against Blake.

You said SA IS NOT tough, I counter that the addition of Splitter, plus continued improvement of DeJuan Blair, who in case you didn't realize, is tough, burly, and ended last season on the All-Rookie team. Just tell Pau & Andrew that, EVERYTIME they go into the paint against THIS YEAR'S SPURS, their legs are about to take a beating. It doesn't take a huge mind-shift to see what improvements there could be once Splitter is in the post to defend. There will no longer be a time where a team can say,"Throw it to whoever the white guy is defending". Bonner will have his time to be effective against teams that are fringe playoff. But when it's for the LOB, his playing time will be reduced to situational time only.

Again...all you've said, is what most big city media is saying. You said you were going to scan an article from Yahoo NBA. I got a chance to pick it up and you know what's funny? On the prediction page, who did Yahoo say was going to face the LAL in the Western Conference Finals? That's right, The San Antonio Spurs. So it's not just Spurs fan that says, that the Spurs can contend. That's 1 national mag there as well. One you referenced.

[4down]

The Spurs have never been considered contenders, except for years following a Spurs championship.

[koriwhat]

hurry up and get here already nba season!

[2Cleva]

C'mon now 2Cleva. I told you, you can't expect us to genuflect just because you THINK you're right. I've given you many credible reasons as to why the Spurs can still be a part of the championship equation. You didn't explain why YOU consider Blake(r) to be a standout defender. Blake or Fisher, it doesn't matter, TP will chew either up for breakfast. It's not like TP's never faced Blake in the playoffs. When Blake was in Denver, TP only average 18 Points per game against Blake.

You said SA IS NOT tough, I counter that the addition of Splitter, plus continued improvement of DeJuan Blair, who in case you didn't realize, is tough, burly, and ended last season on the All-Rookie team. Just tell Pau & Andrew that, EVERYTIME they go into the paint against THIS YEAR'S SPURS, their legs are about to take a beating. It doesn't take a huge mind-shift to see what improvements there could be once Splitter is in the post to defend. There will no longer be a time where a team can say,"Throw it to whoever the white guy is defending". Bonner will have his time to be effective against teams that are fringe playoff. But when it's for the LOB, his playing time will be reduced to situational time only.

Again...all you've said, is what most big city media is saying. You said you were going to scan an article from Yahoo NBA. I got a chance to pick it up and you know what's funny? On the prediction page, who did Yahoo say was going to face the LAL in the Western Conference Finals? That's right, The San Antonio Spurs. So it's not just Spurs fan that says, that the Spurs can contend. That's 1 national mag there as well. One you referenced.

Yeah, they had them picked to get there - no chance of beating LA.

No point in anyone trying to convince anyone else. I don't see much evidence than anyone out West comes close to beating LA in a series so I'm comfortable in that. Duncan has such a great history, I'm not mad at fans for having hope still.

Season is almost here. It all will be decided in due time.

[Killakobe81]

Contenders? Sure, however, there are quite a few things that will have to go the Spurs way for them to actually make it to the finals, let alone win it all.

1. RJ is useful
2. Timmy doesn't run out of gas.
3. Manu same as Timmy.
4. Hill shows improvement from last season.
5. TP doesn't get distracted with his contract.
6. Blair learns how to guard the bigger players well and he has developed a consistent jumper.
7. Tiago is as good as advertised.
8. Anderson/Neal provide the much needed 3 point threats the Spurs have been lacking.
9. Spurs defense is once again feared.
10. Everyone stays healthy for a long enough time to develop chemistry and remain healthy for the playoffs.
11. I give Pop his brain back.

That is all that I can think of off of the top of my head. They aren't listed in any particular order.

Bump. Spot on, props.

[Killakobe81]

This is a well thought out post. You almost have me doubting my thoughts on the matter. However I STILL disagree. Now granted this is base that duncan has one last big run left. If he does. i think the spurs matchup well with every team listed EXCEPT the Heat. But the Heat are not promised a trip to the finals anyway. but even so I would give the spurs a small chance.

The only clear advantages the Heat have on the spurs are: SF and SG. now i admit those look to be grand canyon wide advantages but let me at leats make a case for Manu (my 2nd favorite spur) ...

In a big game (when healthy) is Wade really THAT much better than Manu?
If Manu can give you a few vintage games in a series (remember in 2008 when he led the spurs to their one victory over the Lakers inthe WCF) I think it off-sets a bit what wade will do to the spurs on defense. Besides as great as wade is I've seen hinrich do a solid job on him ...you telling me Manu couldnt do half as good?

Well Lebron will shit on RJ? Yes, there i no way for me to sugar coat it.
Duncan can still dominate Bosh and if they played him 1 on 1, and would probably foul him out on top of it. Problem is Im guessing they swarm duncan if he is abusing Bosh. The spurs shooters would have to make them pay.
Spliiter should be as good as Z or whomever the Heat put at center.

Ultimately I think the spurs don't matchup well with the heat, due to the lack of perimeter defenders. And Pop would be crazy to play small ball against them.

Key to matching heat is to shoot a high %, pound their soft middle, take advantage of the gambling wade and Lebron and control the boards also force Lebron to jack up his 30 feet deep 3's ...pack the paint against drives even if you give up 3's.

Bump. I also remember getting slammed for this too ...

[in2deep]

There is one contender: Miami Heat.

All the other teams aren't in the same league than them.


:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao
:lmao v

[Killakobe81]

Yes, they are. I have too much Respect for Tim, Pop and Manu to think otherwise. But that being said, I feel pretty confident if BOTH the Lakers and spurs are healthy we win. But it will be tougher than many on here think.

Another one some of my Laker brothers dismissed ...heck even some Spur fans thought i was crazy. also reading through this thread ...Harlem made some good points about Blake's defense or lack of ...

I thought it was interesting how many spur fans had less optimism thani did about the spurs. But NO ONE predicted this kind of run ...