Noah for Melo?

[kamikazi_player]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5550421
I'm kind of interested if the Bulls would take Melo and give up probably their best big defensively and rebounding. I think this is a tough decision. Of course Melo's better overall, but the bulls would have to rely on Boozer playing center.

[Venti Quattro]

Boozer playing center :lmao

Bulls shouldn't pull the trigger on this imo. They'll have a large hole at the center spot.

[TD 21]

I wouldn't do it if I were the Bulls and I don't suspect the Bulls will do it, either.

They may already have a go-to perimeter player on a championship caliber team (I don't think the team or Rose is at that level yet, but the potential is there).

Noah is too valuable a player and plays too valuable a position to give up.

[kamikazi_player]

They do also have Kurt Thomas, but I doubt he'll play more than 15 minutes a game.

[Venti Quattro]

They do also have Kurt Thomas, but I doubt he'll play more than 15 minutes a game.

They're toast if he even plays more than 10 minutes a game.

[lefty]

That would be retarded IMHO

Considering the lack of decent centers in the NBA, they better not pull the trigger

[ducks]

Boozer playing center :lmao

Bulls shouldn't pull the trigger on this imo. They'll have a large hole at the center spot.

boozer is ok against everyone except gasol and dwight

he is actually not that bad

[Venti Quattro]

boozer is ok against everyone except gasol and dwight

he is actually not that bad

Yeah he can be a nice stop gap but those bigs are from the teams that the bulls need to beat. The Bulls can't go to war with only Boozer.

[JamStone]

Giving up Joakim Noah wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I were making decisions for the Bulls. It would be the fact that Melo could leave the next summer. If I were guaranteed to be able to sign Melo to an extension, then it would be worth giving up Noah. Noah is a good, young center, but Melo's impact on the game would be worth it to me as long as it would be for a long term situation. But giving up Noah with a good possibility of losing Melo the next summer anyway isn't worth it.

[Steve Kerr]

What Jamstone said. If Melo agrees upon an extension, then I'd trade a role player at center for a top 10 player.

[picc84]

Maybe Noah for Melo. Not Deng and Noah for Melo. Preferably not either.

[Venti Quattro]

Come to think of it, Carmelo's contract situation is much much messier than LeBron's. Bron flirted but started to bitch when he was actually a free-agent. Melo's asking out without a definite guarantee of a long-term tenure with the acquiring team.

[Steve Kerr]

You guys going to sign Lou?
I try not to pay attention to what the Suns do/don't do anymore.

[Chillen]

I agree with JamStone, giving up Noah for Melo is worth it only if he agrees to an extension with Chicago. Noah is a young, energetic, great rebounding center and there is not enough of them in the NBA it seems these days. I really don't see the Bulls agreeing to it unless they can have a guarantee from Melo that he will stay long term. Replacing Noah would be tough but to get better sometimes you have to give something up. I am not sure if any trade will go down, it seems unlikely, but who knows.

[Chillen]

Maybe Noah for Melo. Not Deng and Noah for Melo. Preferably not either.

Yeah Deng and Noah is giving up way to much, Denver will get the better end of this trade especially if Anthony doesn't stay in Chicago.

[kamikazi_player]

Lets just say Melo goes to the Bulls, wouldn't that defense get any weaker? Melo might have improved his D in Denver, but I doubt he can he can provide enough D for the Bulls to contend against Miami, Boston, or Orlando. I believe that Noah's D is one to consider. Sure he's undersized, but he does very well pressuring opposing players on defense.

[kamikazi_player]

You give up Melo and sign scrub centers by committee. The Lakers have gone back2back with virtually no center. I'd give up Noah and Deng for Melo. Deng sucks and is overpaid. You can sign Damp and your center crew of Kurt Thomas and Damp is much better than what Miami has at center. In fact, they would be a better team than Miami and more balanced.

Rose/Watson
Brewer/Korver
Melo/Johnson
Boozer/Gibson
Thomas/Damp

What makes you think Damp wants to go to Chicago instead of Miami? Miami will probably be all over him if he was bought out of his contract

[Steve Kerr]

Yeah luva is right, Chicago would be dumb to even pass up Deng + Noah. Deng is worthless IMO. He's injury prone, doesn't really do anything well, and it's safe to say him reaching his potential is something that will never happen. Joakim Noah is easily replaceable, he doesn't have the talent to be anything more than the role player he is.

Top 10 players you can build your team around aren't on the trading block very often. When they are, and the team trading them is asking for two easily replaceable players, you pull the trigger.

[2Cleva]

Giving up Joakim Noah wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I were making decisions for the Bulls. It would be the fact that Melo could leave the next summer. If I were guaranteed to be able to sign Melo to an extension, then it would be worth giving up Noah. Noah is a good, young center, but Melo's impact on the game would be worth it to me as long as it would be for a long term situation. But giving up Noah with a good possibility of losing Melo the next summer anyway isn't worth it.

Agreed. But Chicago is supposedly on Melo's short list of teams.

No-brainer for Chicago. They can try to trade for someone like Varejao to replace most of what Noah does. But Melo is a franchise player. They messed up trying to get Kobe and later on Pau by going cheap. No need to strike out 3 times.

[Steve Kerr]

Since John Paxson would rather get sodomized by a hatchet than trade a player he drafted, this trade isn't gonna happen. It'll be the latest case of Paxson overrating players on his team and their potential, and once again the result will be them turning down a chance at a franchise player. As long as that egotistical fuck is GM of the Bulls, they won't be contending for anything.

[picc84]

You give up Melo and sign scrub centers by committee. The Lakers have gone back2back with virtually no center. I'd give up Noah and Deng for Melo. Deng sucks and is overpaid. You can sign Damp and your center crew of Kurt Thomas and Damp is much better than what Miami has at center. In fact, they would be a better team than Miami and more balanced.

Rose/Watson
Brewer/Korver
Melo/Johnson
Boozer/Gibson
Thomas/Damp

Not with that big gaping hole at the 2-guard. Brewer and Thomas are both bums, and no team is going anywhere not getting offensive production from 2 positions. Trading Deng for Melo has them competing for the EC. Trading Deng and Noah saves them a noose on the tree of woe.

[Steve Kerr]

How the hell does he even have a job anymore. Starting with his 1st season as GM:

2004: lottery team
2005: lost in 1st round
2006: lost in 1st round
2007: lost in 2nd round
2008: lottery team
2009: lost in 1st round
2010: lost in 1st round

In 7 seasons as GM, he's only had 2 teams that were above .500, 0 teams that won 50 games, and 1 team that made it out of the 1st round. He's fired 4 coaches during that span, had too many top 10 picks to count, and has turned away several trades that woulda netted him all star level players.

[Steve Kerr]

Not with that big gaping hole at the 2-guard. Brewer and Thomas are both bums, and no team is going anywhere not getting offensive production from 2 positions. Trading Deng for Melo has them competing for the EC. Trading Deng and Noah saves them a noose on the tree of woe.
Other than hustle points, what offensive production does Noah give you at center? Noah is a role player. They aren't contending for shit as is and won't be anytime soon with the current roster they have, the nucleus of Rose/Melo actually gives them something to build around.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Screw the Bulls.

Houston can put together a better package than that crap. The clippers and Nets can also outbid the Bulls.

Noah is interesting but not enough to get Melo. Adding Deng is a negative because of his long contract.

[picc84]

Noah isn't a scorer, but just on his style of play he'll give you double digit offense on a high% against any playoff defense, no matter how great. Kurt Thomas won't. Dampier, should you get him, won't. When you start getting to the elite teams in the 2nd round and further, players who can be exposed on one end of the floor, will be.

You trade for Melo without giving up Noah, you only have one player on the court who an opponent can turn into a liability (Brewer or Korver). You trade Noah along with Deng, now you have two.

I agree that the Bulls aren't winning a title either way, but they're a hell of a lot closer and some lucky breaks away with both Noah and Melo.

[Steve Kerr]

Joakim Noah had his 1st season last year where he barely scored double figures, so now he can get you double digit offense against any playoff defense? I don't understand where you get the idea he's such a reliable offensive performer.

This whole "you only have 1 player who's a liability" logic makes no sense. You don't win championships by just having a roster full of guys who "aren't a liability", the Bulls not having a franchise player will be exposed moreso than having a guy who can't create for himself at SG.

Of course if they can avoid giving Noah they should, but someone who will never be anything more than a role player shouldn't be the deal breaker for a franchise player.

[JamStone]

Not with that big gaping hole at the 2-guard. Brewer and Thomas are both bums, and no team is going anywhere not getting offensive production from 2 positions. Trading Deng for Melo has them competing for the EC. Trading Deng and Noah saves them a noose on the tree of woe.

Very inaccurate.

In fact, most of the championship teams this past decade have had weak offensive production from two positions. Think back to the early Shaq-Kobe Lakers with starters like Rick Fox and Samaki Walker, or the Spurs title teams with Bruce and Rasho or Bruce and Francisco Elson, or even Bruce and an older David Robinson. Look at the Miami Heat title team with Udonis and Posey and then the Celtics team a few years ago with Rondo and Perkins before Rondo had established himself offensively as a good scorer. Look at the Lakers two years ago with Ariza and Fisher starting. Before the playoffs, Ariza was only putting up 9 ppg.

As you see with many of those title teams, the scoring responsibility would largely rest on 2-3 starters and maybe another main guy off the bench. There are often "weak" offensive players at two positions on very good teams. And the potential line-up the Bulls would have with Rose, Melo, and Boozer feature three guys who all would put up around 20 ppg or more. And when Brewer was playing 30 minutes a game, he was a 10-12 ppg guy. Plus you have Korver backing him up, who would offset some of Brewer's lack of offense.

The Bulls would be fine having two weak offensive positions. That's not what the problem would be. It would be defensively they'd be pretty bad, and average at best. But that's why I said it would only be worth it if the Bulls were certain they could re-sign Melo. That first year would be a starting point, but they'd have to get some defensive depth especially at the center position in the following seasons. The first year, scoring wouldn't be a problem. It would be the fact that their defense would probably give up a lot of points on high percentage shooting.

[Sigz]

I love Noah. Wish we had him instead of t-rex arms Bonner.

[Zelophehad]

Boozer would never play center even if they trade Noah. They would play Gibson or Kurt Thomas at the 5. I don't know how you can be an NBA fan and not know that.

[HarlemHeat37]

This is a no-brainer..

I like Noah, but his ceiling is a high-end role player..if you can get a top 10 player in the NBA that is either in his prime or about to enter his prime, you obviously have to pull the trigger..

The Bulls aren't going to win a title this season no matter what they do..so they're thinking about the present AND future..if Anthony is going to sign an extension, of course you do it..

What would be better?..

Year 1: Keep Noah, which fills the hole at C and might make the Bulls a better team for this season..however, this team doesn't have as high of a ceiling, as they still only have 1 potential star player, and he plays the PG position, which hasn't been successful for championships as of late..

Year 1: Keep Anthony, have a hole at C, and maybe have a worse team than you would with Noah..however, for the future, you can have Carmelo Anthony, a top 10 player in his prime, AND THEN you can fill the C hole the next year, which obviously gives you a better team for the future..

I would definitely be willing to sacrifice a year and be a little worse for the sake of having Anthony for many years to come, since the Bulls could just fill the C hole the next off-season..granted they probably won't get a better player than Noah, but you just don't pass up a star wingman in this era..

[picc84]

Very inaccurate.

In fact, most of the championship teams this past decade have had weak offensive production from two positions.

Exactly. The past decade. The NBA is stronger now, especially going into the upcoming season. The early decade Lakers could get away with having two players because the league was weaker, and they were sporting a prime Shaq. And 2 out of 3 years, we barely got away with that. None of the contenders currently have anyone even close to him. The only team with an argument is the Heat. The Bulls, even with Melo, certainly don't.


the Celtics team a few years ago with Rondo and Perkins before Rondo had established himself offensively as a good scorer. Look at the Lakers two years ago with Ariza and Fisher starting. Before the playoffs, Ariza was only putting up 9 ppg.

Only Rondo wasn't an offensive liability, even back then. Neither was Ariza. And both of them were two-way players. 08 Rondo and 09 Trevor Ariza would both be HUGE upgrades over Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver, not to mention Kurt Thomas or Eric Dampier.


And when Brewer was playing 30 minutes a game, he was a 10-12 ppg guy.

And as soon as they met a good defensive team in the playoffs who could expose his vulnerabilities, he was scoring 10 points on 40% shooting, while crippling the offense with his lack of a 3-pointer (0% in the '09 playoffs). Which is exactly what will happen should the Bulls make the 2nd round or further.


Plus you have Korver backing him up, who would offset some of Brewer's lack of offense.

And who would present another set of equally bad problems on defense.


The Bulls would be fine having two weak offensive positions.

Sure they would. Up until the 2nd round. If you think they're going anywhere in this league carrying two dead weights in their crunchtime lineup, you're crazy.

[SomeCallMeTim]

The Lakers have gone back2back with virtually no center.

Say what?

Bynum and Pau are excellent centers. Saying the Lakers have had virtually no center is ridiculous.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Surprised and impressed by this thread. Fully expected it to be full of "Of course you trade Noah for Melo, Melo is a SUPASTAR!!!1!!" takes. Good to see people recognize that Noah is underrated and Melo overrated.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Exactly. The past decade. The NBA is stronger now, especially going into the upcoming season. The early decade Lakers could get away with having two players because the league was weaker, and they were sporting a prime Shaq.

How you can say having 2 offensively challenged players makes winning a title impossible? Lakers just won a title with Fisher and Artest starting and getting the bulk of the minutes at their positions.

[JamStone]

Surprised and impressed by this thread. Fully expected it to be full of "Of course you trade Noah for Melo, Melo is a SUPASTAR!!!1!!" takes. Good to see people recognize that Noah is underrated and Melo overrated.

Even if Noah were underrated (which I don't think is the case anymore) and Melo overrated (which he is but still a franchise player), if Melo were under contract for the next four seasons, I'd trade Noah for him in a split second without even blinking. Any hesitation I would have trading Noah for Melo would be almost exclusively due to the likelihood that Melo would still leave after only playing one year in Chicago.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Even if Noah were underrated (which I don't think is the case anymore) and Melo overrated (which he is but still a franchise player), if Melo were under contract for the next four seasons, I'd trade Noah for him in a split second without even blinking. Any hesitation I would have trading Noah for Melo would be almost exclusively due to the likelihood that Melo would still leave after only playing one year in Chicago.

I don't think Melo for Noah would be a terrible trade for the Bulls or anything. It's just not a slam dunk IMO. Big problem will be Melo's insistence on a max contract. So you could keep a valuable player in Noah who has a much more reasonable contract or overpay for Melo's production. I'm not saying overpaying for production is always a bad thing (the Lakers are now overpaying for Kobe and that's working out pretty well I'd say) but I guess I'm just not as high on Melo as many are.

[JamStone]

Exactly. The past decade. The NBA is stronger now, especially going into the upcoming season. The early decade Lakers could get away with having two players because the league was weaker, and they were sporting a prime Shaq. And 2 out of 3 years, we barely got away with that. None of the contenders currently have anyone even close to him. The only team with an argument is the Heat. The Bulls, even with Melo, certainly don't.

The NBA isn't all that much stronger now than in the early 2000s. Right now, there is the Lakers. Then you got potentially great team because of its talent in Miami. Every other team is either really good but old or second tier also-rans.

In the early 2000s, the Lakers and Spurs might have dominated but teams like Sacramento and Portland were really great teams. The Eastern Conference may have been really weak, but that doesn't mean the league right now is stronger. The Eastern Conference is stronger. But one could argue based on the strength of the Western Conference in the early 2000s, the league was more competitive then. It just was all mostly in the West.




Only Rondo wasn't an offensive liability, even back then. Neither was Ariza. And both of them were two-way players. 08 Rondo and 09 Trevor Ariza would both be HUGE upgrades over Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver, not to mention Kurt Thomas or Eric Dampier.

The hell Rondo wasn't an offensively liability in 2008. He was 50 times worse as a jump shooter back then. And that's saying a lot because he still sucks as a jump shooter.

And Ariza was an offensive liability. How do you think he got all those open looks in the playoffs? Because teams didn't respect him at all and they collapsed on Kobe and Pau. Ariza got on a hot streak for about a month and a half. Good for him. Ask Houston fans if Ariza is an offensive liability.

The fact that they were good defenders is precisely why your initial comment was wrong. You said a team couldn't go anywhere with two positions being offensive liabilities. That's wrong because teams have done it. And it's wrong because if those two offensive liabilities are great defenders, they can make up for it at the other end.

The Bulls wouldn't go anywhere because their defense would be bad, not because of the offensive limitations of Brewer and Thomas.




And as soon as they met a good defensive team in the playoffs who could expose his vulnerabilities, he was scoring 10 points on 40% shooting, while crippling the offense with his lack of a 3-pointer (0% in the '09 playoffs). Which is exactly what will happen should the Bulls make the 2nd round or further.

And who would present another set of equally bad problems on defense.

That's why there are more than 5 players on a team. His lack of jumpshot gets exposed, play Korver more. Korver's weak defense exposed, play Brewer more.

It's why a team that has a human sieve at point guard like Fisher on the Lakers can still win games in the playoffs. It's why a team who has a guard who can't hit open three pointers like Rondo on the Celtics can still win games in the playoffs.





Sure they would. Up until the 2nd round. If you think they're going anywhere in this league carrying two dead weights in their crunchtime lineup, you're crazy.

Guess to you "going anywhere in the league" means championship or nothing at all. You're talking about a Bulls team that since Jordan retired has been to the playoffs only 5 times in 12 seasons, making it out of the second round only once. You're talking about a Bulls franchise that has had only 2 winning seasons in those 12 seasons. You're talking about a Bulls team that got rudely and embarrassingly handled in the first round last year.

Making it to the second round coming where the Bulls are coming from is going in the right direction. Lose in the second round, then try to fill some of those holes at center and shooting guard. It's better than what they've had the last 12 years.

[mountainballer]

IMO it's a no brainer to do it.
(without an extension there wouldn't even be talks)
Rose+Melo+Bozzer gives them to much potential to form one of the best one-two-three punch trios in the league and I don't even think about the financial implications. (Melo would net the Bulls multiple times the money Noah ever could)
the team would be pretty imbalanced after this trade, but Bulls do have some assets to get a Center in another trade.
(IMO they would need a third team anyhow, if Nuggets don't also take Deng, which they won't. Cavs and their extension. Deng would fit nice in Cleveland)

[kace]

Of course if they can avoid giving Noah they should, but someone who will never be anything more than a role player shouldn't be the deal breaker for a franchise player.

Noah is the kind of role player who can make a team win PO games and titles.

Is Melo the kind of franchise player who makes his team win titles ?

Noah, with his probable progression, for Melo is a very tough choice to make IMHO.

[mystargtr34]

You give up Noah for Melo in an absolute heart beat if thats the deal breaker... and then you fill the holes afterward.

[picc84]

The NBA isn't all that much stronger now than in the early 2000s. Right now, there is the Lakers. Then you got potentially great team because of its talent in Miami. Every other team is either really good but old or second tier also-rans.

In the early 2000s, the Lakers and Spurs might have dominated but teams like Sacramento and Portland were really great teams. The Eastern Conference may have been really weak, but that doesn't mean the league right now is stronger. The Eastern Conference is stronger. But one could argue based on the strength of the Western Conference in the early 2000s, the league was more competitive then. It just was all mostly in the West.

Agree to disagree. Whole other discussion here.


The hell Rondo wasn't an offensively liability in 2008. He was 50 times worse as a jump shooter back then. And that's saying a lot because he still sucks as a jump shooter.

He ended the series with a 21 point, 8 assist game. Had a 16 assist game in game 4. He couldn't shoot but he could handle the ball well enough to get to the rim and finish, and was the best passer on the team. As an offensive player, he was still better than Ronnie Brewer and much harder to eliminate from a play.

As for Ariza, I don't know how you can say he was an offensive liability because he got open looks, when he was knocking all of them down. He shot 48% from 3 for the playoffs. Unless you think Bulls fans can reasonably rely on Brewer channeling Steve Kerr the way Ariza did that postseason, its not an apt comparison.

By the way. They can't. His last two years in the playoffs, Brewer has averaged 8% from downtown. 0% against the best defensive team they placed.

Either 09 Ariza or 08 Rondo would be a significant improvement on the Bulls over Ronnie Brewer. The two of them also being good defensive players at their positions is just icing on the cake. His complete lack of any jumpshot is the last thing a slashing guard like Derrick Rose needs against an athletic defense like Miami's or an experienced one like Boston's, and he doesn't have the dribbling or passing skills to contribute in other areas like Rondo did.


The Bulls wouldn't go anywhere because their defense would be bad, not because of the offensive limitations of Brewer and Thomas.

Yeah. We'll see.


That's why there are more than 5 players on a team. His lack of jumpshot gets exposed, play Korver more. Korver's weak defense exposed, play Brewer more.

That was my problem with the Bulls offseason. They needed a two-way player at shooting guard, and traded their only one away. With Korver and Brewer they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Korver will get next to no playing time against a team like Miami, with Wade and James on the other end. Against a team like Boston, he can chase around Allen but the same thing that happened to Vladimir Radmanovic and Derek Fisher in the 2008 finals is going to happen to him. The Boston defense rotates too quickly for a spot-up shooter to get consistent good looks. This year Derek Fisher was regularly taking 5-6 shots from behind the arc throughout the playoffs. We get to Boston and suddenly he's lucky to get 2 off, and registers donuts on 3 point attempts in a couple games.

Is Chicago good enough to survive losing Korver's offense against a good defensive team, and not getting any from Brewer? If Noah and his 15 pts on high % is on the team along with Melo, yes. If Kurt Thomas is manning the C position, no.


Guess to you "going anywhere in the league" means championship or nothing at all. You're talking about a Bulls team that since Jordan retired has been to the playoffs only 5 times in 12 seasons, making it out of the second round only once. You're talking about a Bulls franchise that has had only 2 winning seasons in those 12 seasons. You're talking about a Bulls team that got rudely and embarrassingly handled in the first round last year.

Making it to the second round coming where the Bulls are coming from is going in the right direction. Lose in the second round, then try to fill some of those holes at center and shooting guard. It's better than what they've had the last 12 years.

Dude if you're satisfied with the Bulls achieving 2nd round ecstacy, we're coming from two entirely different perspectives here. With Noah and Melo they could compete for a title. With just Melo they can't. Good center's don't grow on trees, they can't just wait for next offseason and try to get a new guy as good as Noah is - it won't happen. Not that easy. And they need a guy as good as him to get to the next level.

I'm not Denvers GM so I can't greenlight a Deng/Gibson trade for Melo. I'm just saying it would be in Chi's best interest to hold out on Noah as long as possible, and put some pressure on Denver. Trading Noah along with Deng should be an absolute last resort, its not something you hear and just go "pull the trigger".

[Cry Havoc]

Even if Noah were underrated (which I don't think is the case anymore) and Melo overrated (which he is but still a franchise player), if Melo were under contract for the next four seasons, I'd trade Noah for him in a split second without even blinking. Any hesitation I would have trading Noah for Melo would be almost exclusively due to the likelihood that Melo would still leave after only playing one year in Chicago.

Yep. This.

At the end of the day, if you don't have players who can put the ball through the hoop, you aren't going to win much. Right now the Bulls would still be good defensively without Noah, and they'd be great offensively with Melo. His attitude is a concern, though. Not sure how chemistry would fare between him and Rose.

[Cry Havoc]

The fact that they were good defenders is precisely why your initial comment was wrong. You said a team couldn't go anywhere with two positions being offensive liabilities. That's wrong because teams have done it. And it's wrong because if those two offensive liabilities are great defenders, they can make up for it at the other end.

You could make a pretty convincing argument that every team in the past decade+ has had a couple of less-skilled offensive players.

Name a championship team that has had more than 3 really, really good offensive players on the starting roster? Maybe the 08 Celtics with Rondo as a 4th, but I wouldn't have classified him as a "great" weapon, he was just decent at best.

[Steve Kerr]

Noah is the kind of role player who can make a team win PO games and titles.

Is Melo the kind of franchise player who makes his team win titles ?

Noah, with his probable progression, for Melo is a very tough choice to make IMHO.
Melo is potentially someone who will be either the star or co-star of a title team in the future. He has all the talent in the world, has finally figured out how to use his size just as well as he uses his athleticism, and still has more room to grow. People will bash Melo for his flaws, but he's no less flawed than any player in the league not named Kobe Bryant Lebron James or Dwanye Wade.

Noah meanwhile might have a little more room to grow but he'll never be anything more than a role player who's a defensive specialist in the starting lineup but with 3-4 other players around him who are better offensively. He's not the most athletic guy in the world, can't make a shot outside of 5 feet, is undersized for his position, and produces because of a high motor and high energy level.

For some reason people (fans and retarded GMs) seem to think that since the Carmelo Anthonys and Amare Stoudemires of the world aren't as good as Kobe or Lebron you're better off not trading for them and waiting until the next Lebron or Kobe falls into your lap. It's retarded logic that backfires 99.9% of the time.

[Steve Kerr]

I don't think Melo for Noah would be a terrible trade for the Bulls or anything. It's just not a slam dunk IMO. Big problem will be Melo's insistence on a max contract. So you could keep a valuable player in Noah who has a much more reasonable contract or overpay for Melo's production. I'm not saying overpaying for production is always a bad thing (the Lakers are now overpaying for Kobe and that's working out pretty well I'd say) but I guess I'm just not as high on Melo as many are.
O great more of this "he's not worth a max contract :cry" mongoloid madness.

I guess all teams in the NBA that don't have either Lebron, Kobe or Wade should never give a max contract to someone who doesn't deserve it. Instead, they should build their team around role players with reasonable contracts. Hey, they might suck and have no way of closing games or contending for a championship, but at least they won't be overpaying anyone (:cry). YOU HAVE TO OVERPAY IN THE NBA TO CONTEND. Why is this concept so hard to understand?

[Steve Kerr]

I just can't wait for Thibodeau to get fired a year from now because the Bulls are a shitball offensive team and Scott Skiles will always blame coaches for that rather than blame himself for a roster that has no one who can get himself a shot at important points of the game.

[JamStone]

He ended the series with a 21 point, 8 assist game. Had a 16 assist game in game 4. He couldn't shoot but he could handle the ball well enough to get to the rim and finish, and was the best passer on the team. As an offensive player, he was still better than Ronnie Brewer and much harder to eliminate from a play.

In the 2008 playoff series against the Lakers, Brewer averaged 11 points on 53% FG shooting in roughly 24 minutes a game. You'd be hard-pressed to convince anyone that's deadweight offensively.



As for Ariza, I don't know how you can say he was an offensive liability because he got open looks, when he was knocking all of them down. He shot 48% from 3 for the playoffs. Unless you think Bulls fans can reasonably rely on Brewer channeling Steve Kerr the way Ariza did that postseason, its not an apt comparison.

You can be a poor three point shooter and not be an offensive liability. Just take your Rondo example. You can be a decent three point shooter and still be an offensive liability. Someone like Eddie House comes to mind, or JJ Redick his first couple seasons in the league. No, Brewer is never going to get a hot streak from three point land, but that's not his function or his role and that doesn't make him deadweight offensively. Look at how Utah was built and you'd often have a line-up of Deron, Memo, Kirilenko/Harpring and all of those guys are capable three point shooters, and Boozer is a good midrange jumpshooter. Would it help if Brewer were a good three point shooter? Of course. Was he deadweight because he couldn't? Not necessarily. His lack of three point shooting would hurt the Bulls. Their lack of interior defense would. Putting a three point shooter at the 2-guard position on that hypothetical Bulls team doesn't change their lack of a defensive center.




Either 09 Ariza or 08 Rondo would be a significant improvement on the Bulls over Ronnie Brewer. The two of them also being good defensive players at their positions is just icing on the cake. His complete lack of any jumpshot is the last thing a slashing guard like Derrick Rose needs against an athletic defense like Miami's or an experienced one like Boston's, and he doesn't have the dribbling or passing skills to contribute in other areas like Rondo did.

Trevor Ariza and Rondo are better players than Brewer. I wouldn't argue otherwise. That doesn't change the reason why I challenged your initial comment. You're modifying your argument when what I challenged was your notion that a team can't go anywhere with two offensive deadweights. That's been proven over and over this past decade to be inaccurate. You modifying your argument to talk about other things those "deadweights" could contribute changes the argument.




That was my problem with the Bulls offseason. They needed a two-way player at shooting guard, and traded their only one away. With Korver and Brewer they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The Bulls pursued Dwyane Wade and LeBron. I'm sure they talked to Joe Johnson. It's not like great two-way shooting guards fall out of the sky. I'm not arguing the Bulls did good signing Brewer and Korver. I don't think they had a good off-season. That has nothing to do with me challenging your initial comment about two offensive deadweights...




Korver will get next to no playing time against a team like Miami, with Wade and James on the other end. Against a team like Boston, he can chase around Allen but the same thing that happened to Vladimir Radmanovic and Derek Fisher in the 2008 finals is going to happen to him. The Boston defense rotates too quickly for a spot-up shooter to get consistent good looks. This year Derek Fisher was regularly taking 5-6 shots from behind the arc throughout the playoffs. We get to Boston and suddenly he's lucky to get 2 off, and registers donuts on 3 point attempts in a couple games.

Is Chicago good enough to survive losing Korver's offense against a good defensive team, and not getting any from Brewer? If Noah and his 15 pts on high % is on the team along with Melo, yes. If Kurt Thomas is manning the C position, no.

This is more specific points when I challenged a general comment. To me, the Bulls wouldn't be championship contenders either way. But that has nothing to do with me challenging your initial argument...




Dude if you're satisfied with the Bulls achieving 2nd round ecstacy, we're coming from two entirely different perspectives here. With Noah and Melo they could compete for a title. With just Melo they can't. Good center's don't grow on trees, they can't just wait for next offseason and try to get a new guy as good as Noah is - it won't happen. Not that easy. And they need a guy as good as him to get to the next level.

The Bulls aren't my team. I don't give a shit how deep they go in the playoffs, much less feel satisfied or unsatisfied with how far they go. You're channeling your Laker fan bias once again with the "championship or nothing" logic. With most teams that grow and are being built to win championships, there is a progression. There are steps. You can't just make a couple major moves and then expect to win a title right away like Boston did in 2008. That's not how easy it's supposed to be. If you're the Bulls, you give up Noah for Melo with no hesitation if you know you have Carmelo longterm. You have the foundation of Rose, Melo, and Boozer. Then you go from there. You have holes in at C and SG but that's what you address the following off-season.

And I think you way overrate Noah. Even with Noah, to me the Bulls don't compete for a title, especially not right away. They'd have a nice starting line-up. But they also have a disjointed roster. Melo is a midpost scorer at the small forward position. Does he get in Boozer's way on offense and vice versa? Rose is at his best in an open court transition style offense. Boozer and Melo are better in the half court set to maximize their talents. And even with Noah, they'd still have plenty of exploitable mismatches defensively. Boozer can't guard any elite PFs or Cs. Noah still is light in the ass and gets manhandled by big, strong big men. Melo isn't a horrible defender, but he's not good either. The team can score but they'll still have problems defending. Even with Noah, they would still be a few moves away from competing for a title imo.

[Steve Kerr]

I don't even get the championship or nothing logic used here. They have a much better shot at a championship if they trade Deng and Noah for Melo than they do if they don't get Melo period. You're never gonna win a championship with D-Rose surrounded by borderline all stars like Boozer and Deng + a bunch of role players. Nothing Chicago does makes them a contender this year or a team capable of exiting the 2st round. The quickest route they have to being a contender is doing what it takes to get Melo and building around him + Rose. Even then I still think any team relying on Boozer to be one of its best players is destined to fail.

[TD 21]

This is a no-brainer..

I like Noah, but his ceiling is a high-end role player..if you can get a top 10 player in the NBA that is either in his prime or about to enter his prime, you obviously have to pull the trigger..

The Bulls aren't going to win a title this season no matter what they do..so they're thinking about the present AND future..if Anthony is going to sign an extension, of course you do it..

What would be better?..

Year 1: Keep Noah, which fills the hole at C and might make the Bulls a better team for this season..however, this team doesn't have as high of a ceiling, as they still only have 1 potential star player, and he plays the PG position, which hasn't been successful for championships as of late..

Year 1: Keep Anthony, have a hole at C, and maybe have a worse team than you would with Noah..however, for the future, you can have Carmelo Anthony, a top 10 player in his prime, AND THEN you can fill the C hole the next year, which obviously gives you a better team for the future..

I would definitely be willing to sacrifice a year and be a little worse for the sake of having Anthony for many years to come, since the Bulls could just fill the C hole the next off-season..granted they probably won't get a better player than Noah, but you just don't pass up a star wingman in this era..

Noah is a championship caliber role player and he's a perfect fit next to Boozer and on that roster in general. It's not as simple as "trade him for a top ten player and fill the center hole next year". With who (of quality)? And with what resources? They'd be stuck with ancient types, such as Dampier and Thomas. That's not going to get it done.

If I were running the Bulls, I'd stay the course. Rose has the potential to be a go-to guy on a championship team or at least a 1B type. They've got a quality front line, all they need is an SG who can get his own shot and be either their second or third option.

It may sound like it defies logic to not trade a role player center for a top ten player, but in this case, I wouldn't. I like the composition of that team.

That being said, I don't see a deal there that makes sense. I've got to believe the Bulls would be reluctant to give up Noah and the Nuggets would have to take back Deng as well, which they'd probably be reluctant to do even if they were getting Noah.

The Rockets are the team that makes the most sense. The deal someone proposed a while back that makes a lot of sense is Martin, Battier, Hill, Taylor and some combination of the Knicks picks for Anthony and Afflalo. The Nuggets get a nice mix of veterans and young assets, while theoretically remaining competitive enough to still be a playoff team, while the Rockets get the elite player they've coveted and stocked piled assets to get for a while now.

[Steve Kerr]

Noah is a championship caliber role player and he's a perfect fit next to Boozer and on that roster in general.
Oh yeah he's a great fit. An undersized center who gets dominated by size next to a undersized PF who gets dominated by size. I'd say those two are a match made in heaven.

[TD 21]

Oh yeah he's a great fit. An undersized center who gets dominated by size next to a undersized PF who gets dominated by size. I'd say those two are a match made in heaven.

He's a perfect fit, because his strengths are Boozer's weaknesses. Noah is a long, mobile rim protector, while Boozer is slightly undersized, a sub par defender and can't protect the rim.

How is Noah undersized? He's 6-11 and I believe bulked up to 260 last season. Does he get overpowered by O'Neal, Howard, etc.? Yeah. So do a lot of players.

[JamStone]

If Noah is 260, he has a horrible strength and conditioning trainer.

From all accounts, Noah is closer to 225-230. At 6'11, that is very slight. It's more pronounced on Noah because he doesn't have broad shoulders and he doesn't have a strong build in the upper body. That muscle mass better be in his legs and his ass because if he's 260, he didn't get any of it in his upper body.

[Steve Kerr]

He's a perfect fit, because his strengths are Boozer's weaknesses. Noah is a long, mobile rim protector, while Boozer is slightly undersized, a sub par defender and can't protect the rim.

How is Noah undersized? He's 6-11 and I believe bulked up to 260 last season. Does he get overpowered by O'Neal, Howard, etc.? Yeah. So do a lot of players.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

[Steve Kerr]

Rose has the potential to be a go-to guy on a championship team or at least a 1B type.
No he doesn't. The last PG with the potential of being the go to guy on a championship team was Isiah Thomas. No PG since him has been the go to guy on a championship team.

[TD 21]

You lost credibility when you described Noah as "undersized". He's 6-11, with good length and though he's still not all that strong, he now weighs roughly 260.

You lost even more credibility with that "last PG with the potential of being a go to guy on a championship team was Isiah Thomas" comment. What about Billups in '04?

You don't think Paul or Williams could be the go-to guy for a championship team or at least the best player on the team?

[Steve Kerr]

No I don't. It's also retarded to call anyone the "go-to" guy on the 04 Pistons, they were a true unit with no true go to guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3224 (weight: 232)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noahjo01.html (weight: 232)
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joakim_noah/index.html?nav=page (weight: 232)
http://hoopshype.com/players/joakim_noah.htm (weight: 227)

Before attacking my credibility, please provide a link to back up your "credible" claim that Noah weighs 260. A center who weighs roughly 230 pounds is undersized.

[TD 21]

No, Billups was their go-to guy.

Players listings are usually outdated. You think R. Wallace or K. Thomas still weigh 230 and 235? Not a chance. But that's what they're still listed at.

I'll give you an example...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs080809

"Popovich said Duncan has lost 15 pounds and now weighs 240"

Yet if you look on any site, you'll find he's still listed at 260.

I also heard last season that Bynum is 272 (still listed at 285), Nowitzki is 243 (still listed at 245), Bosh is 245 (still listed at 230), etc.

I can't remember where I read or heard it, but I remember reading or hearing that Noah weighs 260 (I knew full well he was still listed at 232, though). Why would I lie about something like that?

[JamStone]

You said "last season" he had bulked up to 260. There is no evidence as such. And if you watched the Bulls play at all last season, you know damn well he was no 260. Even if he's bulked up, no way was it by 30 lbs. That's something you notice. At 6'11, 230-240 is very slight for a center and absolutely falls under the category of "undersized" based on weight, bulk, and strength.

If you're going to make a claim like that, you should have evidence and a link to it. It's not a matter of why you would lie or not. It's supporting a claim that isn't reasonable.

[SomeCallMeTim]

O great more of this "he's not worth a max contract :cry" mongoloid madness.

I guess all teams in the NBA that don't have either Lebron, Kobe or Wade should never give a max contract to someone who doesn't deserve it. Instead, they should build their team around role players with reasonable contracts. Hey, they might suck and have no way of closing games or contending for a championship, but at least they won't be overpaying anyone (:cry). YOU HAVE TO OVERPAY IN THE NBA TO CONTEND. Why is this concept so hard to understand?

"I'm not saying overpaying for production is always a bad thing (the Lakers are now overpaying for Kobe and that's working out pretty well I'd say) but I guess I'm just not as high on Melo as many are."

That's the last sentence of what you replied to, but given your response it appears you missed it.

[TD 21]

I don't care whether there's "evidence of such". Either take my word for it, or don't, I don't care. What would my motivation be for saying that if it were not true? Why would the writer/commentator I saw write that/say that do so if they didn't get it from Noah or someone around the team who would know?

Who said it was 30 pounds? Maybe he was already at 240-245 the previous year, then packed on another 15 pounds. Who knows? That goes back to my point about these listings being outdated. Because they don't update them regularly, no one (fan, at least) really knows what they weigh year to year.

[picc84]

In the 2008 playoff series against the Lakers, Brewer averaged 11 points on 53% FG shooting in roughly 24 minutes a game. You'd be hard-pressed to convince anyone that's deadweight offensively.

The 2008 Lakers were the worst defensive team to make the finals in the past decade. Literally, they were. Last year's 8 seed Bulls had a better defensive rating. The 2009 Lakers are more indicative of what the Bulls will face this year.


Would it help if Brewer were a good three point shooter? Of course. Was he deadweight because he couldn't?

Absolutely he was. He paralyzed the whole jazz offense in our series last year. It was pathetic to watch. We completely ignored him and it crippled their PnR and spacing. I don't think you realize just how limited an offensive player he is.


Trevor Ariza and Rondo are better players than Brewer. I wouldn't argue otherwise. That doesn't change the reason why I challenged your initial comment. You're modifying your argument when what I challenged was your notion that a team can't go anywhere with two offensive deadweights. That's been proven over and over this past decade to be inaccurate. You modifying your argument to talk about other things those "deadweights" could contribute changes the argument.

This past decade's NBA doesn't have anything to do with next years NBA though.

I don't get how you think i'm changing stuff around. I'm not trying to say how the offensive deadweights of Ariza and Rondo could still contribute. I'm saying that they weren't offensive deadweights in the first place. One was shooting lights out and one was an excellent dribble-drive finisher and passer. Brewer is neither.


The Bulls aren't my team. I don't give a shit how deep they go in the playoffs, much less feel satisfied or unsatisfied with how far they go. You're channeling your Laker fan bias once again with the "championship or nothing" logic.

hahaha, thanks


With most teams that grow and are being built to win championships, there is a progression. There are steps. You can't just make a couple major moves and then expect to win a title right away like Boston did in 2008. That's not how easy it's supposed to be. If you're the Bulls, you give up Noah for Melo with no hesitation if you know you have Carmelo longterm. You have the foundation of Rose, Melo, and Boozer. Then you go from there. You have holes in at C and SG but that's what you address the following off-season.

Sure. I'm just saying with the addition of Melo, and keeping Noah, they'd be competing for a championship right away, IMO, and they wouldn't have to wait. You think Bulls fans would be opposed to that? Yes they could trade Noah away and hope they acquire a similar piece in the next couple years, but depending on how much pressure Denver gets in the next few months to deal Melo or see him walk, there's a good possibility they won't have to wait that long.

Melo will only go to NY or Chi, and NY doesn't have the assets, so Chicago is in a good position to wait it out. If time goes by and Denver isn't budging, then you consider including Noah. But first you try to screw them - thats whats happened with every other star player trade in the past decade.

[Cry Havoc]

I don't care whether there's "evidence of such". Either take my word for it, or don't, I don't care.

Why do you need to "take someone's word for it" when there's demonstrable evidence to the contrary?

If I tell you a yard in football is 4 feet, and you say, "Let's go out and measure", and my response is to you, "Well you can take my word for it or not", what do you think you're going to say? "Okay yeah maybe it is 4 feet."?

Noah looks like he's 235 pounds. He's skinny.

http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/joakim-noah-bulls1.jpg

Sorry. That's not even close to 260.

[SomeCallMeTim]

I don't care whether there's "evidence of such". Either take my word for it, or don't, I don't care.

Why should we take your word for it when our eyes, multiple scouting reports, and his actual NBA bio page tell us you are wrong?

[TD 21]

Wow. This is ridiculous. I either heard or read it (can't remember) from someone who would know. You think somebody would make up something like this? Who would do that? Why would they do it? Think about this logically and stop trying to get me on a technicality.

I just gave you an example of a player being 20 pounds under their listed weight. Or does Pop not quality as enough "evidence" for you?

[JamStone]

The Jazz were hurt more by Memo getting injured and Kirilenko's talent falling off a cliff than it was because of Brewer's inability to make three point jumpers. The Jazz had more problems. There's a reason why Brewer still played starter minutes when they had a guy on the bench who could make three pointers in CJ Miles. The Jazz had defense and depth issues against the Lakers in 2009. Those were bigger issues than three point shooting. And the lack of three point shooting wasn't just on Brewer. Kirilenko couldn't hit shit. Harpring was no longer physically able to play significant minutes, much less contribute. And Memo got injured. That's three other guys in that core that were non-facts who should have been expected to contribute with three point shooting. When you consider those players, sure Brewer's lack of three point ability plays a role. On a team with Rose, Melo, Boozer, and Korver, it's not a huge issue as long as Brewer does the other things, defend, attack the offensive glass, slash, and get hustle points from the 2-guard position. It is changing your argument. It's not specifically Brewer's lack of three point shooting that becomes the main detriment on a team, depending on the rest of the players on the roster and what is needed from him. It goes back to your initial comment that a team can't go anywhere with two offensive deadweights. For example, let me put Brewer and Kurt Thomas on a team with Chris Paul, LeBron James, and Dwight Howard. I'd be confident that that team can contend. It's not about two offensive deadweights. It all depends on what else surrounds them on a team.

And, I'll say it again, even if the Bulls traded for Melo and kept Joakim Noah, they still wouldn't contend for a title right away. They'd still have to get defensive depth in the front court. They still wouldn't beat Miami or a "healthy" Boston team and probably wouldn't beat Orlando. That still spells second round exit. So what's the difference?

You trade Noah to get Melo, do what you can this upcoming season. And then fill the rest of the holes in the upcoming seasons. It still hinges on being able to keep Melo long term.

[Darrin]

The Chicago Bulls would be a different team, high scoring and hard to guard, than the defensive-minded team they have now. That said, there's plenty of time with Carmelo Anthony (26), Derrick Rose (22), and Carlos Boozer (30) all still in their prime. Noah, on most nights, will not guard the best big on the court--that will be left to Boozer. He's a rebounder and shot-blocker that would benefit from playing weak-side where his athleticism is emphasized.

And they could turn around and sign him in the 2011 offseason or Kendrick Perkins or Marc Gasol. So they are not without options. I would love to see this trade go down.

[kamikazi_player]

I heard that Michael Jordan was gay, therefore you can take my word for it if he's gay or not. But you should believe me cause I heard it from multiple friends of his.

[TD 21]

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said.

It's incredible how many people lack reading comprehension.

This was said or written by someone who covers the league. You think they just thought to themselves, "I'll just make up the weight of Noah and pass it off as fact, maybe I can fool people into thinking he's 28 pounds over his listed weight"?

I'll admit, he doesn't look 260 to me. But Bosh didn't look 5 pounds heavier than Duncan last season, but he was (he said it himself coming into camp that he was 245). That's just how it goes with some guys. Varejao is listed at 260, does he look it? Not to me.

[Steve Kerr]

No, Billups was their go-to guy.

Players listings are usually outdated. You think R. Wallace or K. Thomas still weigh 230 and 235? Not a chance. But that's what they're still listed at.

I'll give you an example...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs080809

"Popovich said Duncan has lost 15 pounds and now weighs 240"

Yet if you look on any site, you'll find he's still listed at 260.

I also heard last season that Bynum is 272 (still listed at 285), Nowitzki is 243 (still listed at 245), Bosh is 245 (still listed at 230), etc.

I can't remember where I read or heard it, but I remember reading or hearing that Noah weighs 260 (I knew full well he was still listed at 232, though). Why would I lie about something like that?
So you can't show any proof for the claim he bulked up to 260? Thanks for playing.

[Steve Kerr]

I heard that Michael Jordan was gay, therefore you can take my word for it if he's gay or not. But you should believe me cause I heard it from multiple friends of his.
:lmao
He might be listed as straight, but I know some people that know some people that know some people that saw Michael Jordan taking it up the ass from a goat.

[Steve Kerr]

What would my motivation be for saying that if it were not true?
Because you're trying to argue Boozer is a good fit next to Noah, and if Noah weighs 230 as an undersized center, your claim is retarded.

lol questioning my credibility

[JamStone]

I read that it was a sheep, not a goat. I heard it from someone that covers sheeps and goats so he knows what he's talking about. I'll admit that sheeps can look like goats. But I didn't just make that up.

[Steve Kerr]

I read that it was a sheep, not a goat. I heard it from someone that covers sheeps and goats so he knows what he's talking about. I'll admit that sheeps can look like goats. But I didn't just make that up.
Wow. This is ridiculous. I either heard or read it (can't remember) from someone who would know the difference between a sheep and a goat. You think somebody would make up something like this? Who would do that? Why would they do it? Think about this logically and stop trying to get me on a technicality like the difference between a sheep and a goat.

[TD 21]

So you can't show any proof for the claim he bulked up to 260? Thanks for playing.

You acted like players couldn't be listed one weight, but be another. I gave you the Duncan "proof", I pointed out seemingly lanky guys who are around Noah's weight, like Garnett (has been listed at 253 in the past), Gasol (currently listed at 250) and Varejao (currently listed at 260). I don't give a shit, believe what you want, just don't pretend I acted as if I got this news from a friend, because I never did that.

Proof, evidence, do you realize how ridiculous you sound? We're talking about the weight of a player, not putting someone in jail.

Why would I, or the person who said this, have made it up?

[Steve Kerr]

:lmao cool, you gave me proof Duncan weighs 240.

here's proof John Amaechi is gay:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2757105

I guess that means Michael Jordan is gay and takes it up the ass from goats.

[TinTin]

You acted like players couldn't be listed one weight, but be another. I gave you the Duncan "proof", I pointed out seemingly lanky guys who are around Noah's weight, like Garnett (has been listed at 253 in the past), Gasol (currently listed at 250) and Varejao (currently listed at 260). I don't give a shit, believe what you want, just don't pretend I acted as if I got this news from a friend, because I never did that.

Proof, evidence, do you realize how ridiculous you sound? We're talking about the weight of a player, not putting someone in jail.

Why would I, or the person who said this, have made it up?

No need to get heated up man

I think everyone is just stating that if multiple data sources that he is around the 230 mark then most of us would believe that. If we can't rely on the data given then really we can never decide on things

[JamStone]

The problem is you don't even remember who wrote it. How do you remember the exact weight but can't remember who wrote it or where you read it? Perhaps you "misremember" the weight that person wrote. Perhaps it was 236 and not 260. I mean, you can't remember much else about what the person you don't remember wrote.

[picc84]

It is changing your argument. It's not specifically Brewer's lack of three point shooting that becomes the main detriment on a team, depending on the rest of the players on the roster and what is needed from him. It goes back to your initial comment that a team can't go anywhere with two offensive deadweights. For example, let me put Brewer and Kurt Thomas on a team with Chris Paul, LeBron James, and Dwight Howard. I'd be confident that that team can contend.

Sure. So could a team with Jordan, Kareem, and Bird. So I guess actual teams existing in the NBA can cross that off as a problem.

I said no team is going anywhere not getting offensive production from 2 positions. What contender for the 2011 title can you name that balks that criteria?

[TD 21]

I'm not heated, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous a few people are being. Like we're talking about putting someone away for murder here.

I just gave you all proof of a player being 20 pounds under his listing and you follow that up by pretending as if a player can't be a different weight from what they're listed. Unbelievable.

Misremember? Who am I, Roger Clemens?

I distinctly remember reading 260. If I didn't, I wouldn't have said that number.

Gasol is as lanky as they come, yet he's listed at 250, so why couldn't Noah be 260?

[JamStone]

Sure. So could a team with Jordan, Kareem, and Bird. So I guess actual teams existing in the NBA can cross that off as a problem.

I said no team is going anywhere not getting offensive production from 2 positions. What contender for the 2011 title can you name that balks that criteria?

Who are the Heat going to have at point guard and center?

I think they could put two trash offensive players at those two positions and still contend.

[Steve Kerr]

No, I followed it up with providing his listed weight, and then asking for something that says he weighs 260. So far, you have yet to provide any evidence other than "I heard it from this dude who would know" that he has gained weight and is currently 260.

[JamStone]

Summer 2007 at the NBA draft combines, Joakim officially weighed in at 223 lbs.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2007&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

He may have bulked up a little bit the next couple seasons. That's where that hoopshype listed weight at 227 reflects. Then last September, 2009, Joakim Noah talked about working out and gaining weight, 5-6 pounds.


I put on about 5-6 pounds. I've been lifting a lot of weights. I feel a lot stronger. I've played a lot of pick up. I'm just really excited about this season, I went to IMG for a couple of weeks, worked out a lot, I'm just really excited.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2009/09/joakim-noah-media-day-interview-and-impressions.html

That's why you see the difference from 227 to 232 on those other sites. He didn't gain 15 lbs. in 2008 and he didn't already bulk up to 260 "last season" as you claimed.

Remember, you said "last season" he already had bulked up to 260. So if he were already 260 "last season" and he gained 5-6 lbs. prior to last season, then that means he was already around 255 in 2008-09.

And even if you want to say he got to 260 this past summer, then that means he in fact had to have gained 28 pounds over the summer.

I heard someone say you were full of shit. It's someone who covers people who are full of shit. Why would I make it up?

[Steve Kerr]

Summer 2007 at the NBA draft combines, Joakim officially weighed in at 223 lbs.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2007&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

He may have bulked up a little bit the next couple seasons. That's where that hoopshype listed weight at 227 reflects. Then last September, 2009, Joakim Noah talked about working out and gaining weight, 5-6 pounds.



http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2009/09/joakim-noah-media-day-interview-and-impressions.html

That's why you see the difference from 227 to 232 on those other sites. He didn't gain 15 lbs. in 2008 and he didn't already bulk up to 260 "last season" as you claimed.

Remember, you said "last season" he already had bulked up to 260. So if he were already 260 "last season" and he gained 5-6 lbs. prior to last season, then that means he was already around 255 in 2008-09.

And even if you want to say he got to 260 this past summer, then that means he in fact had to have gained 28 pounds over the summer.

I heard someone say you were full of shit. It's someone who covers people who are full of shit. Why would I make it up?
You aren't someone who knows. Gray named Spurfan heard it from someone who knows. Someone who knows > someone who doesn't know

[picc84]

They'll probably spend a lot of time with Wade and James at the 1 and 2 and Mike Miller at 3. With players of Wade, James, and Bosh's caliber, along with a guy like Miller, it won't matter who they run at 5. They'll have 1 weak offensive position, 1 good one, and 3 outstanding ones.

Chicago with Melo and w/o Noah-Deng won't have the luxury of another end-game player the caliber of Miller, or 3 stars the caliber of Miami's.

[Steve Kerr]

They'll probably spend a lot of time with Wade and James at the 1 and 2 and Mike Miller at 3. With players of Wade, James, and Bosh's caliber, along with a guy like Miller, it won't matter who they run at 5. They'll have 1 weak offensive position, 1 good one, and 3 outstanding ones.

Chicago with Melo and w/o Noah-Deng won't have the luxury of another end-game player the caliber of Miller, or 3 stars the caliber of Miami's.
So you think that without Mike Miller the Heat aren't a contender?

[TD 21]

Summer 2007 at the NBA draft combines, Joakim officially weighed in at 223 lbs.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2007&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

He may have bulked up a little bit the next couple seasons. That's where that hoopshype listed weight at 227 reflects. Then last September, 2009, Joakim Noah talked about working out and gaining weight, 5-6 pounds.



http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2009/09/joakim-noah-media-day-interview-and-impressions.html

That's why you see the difference from 227 to 232 on those other sites. He didn't gain 15 lbs. in 2008 and he didn't already bulk up to 260 "last season" as you claimed.

Remember, you said "last season" he already had bulked up to 260. So if he were already 260 "last season" and he gained 5-6 lbs. prior to last season, then that means he was already around 255 in 2008-09.

And even if you want to say he got to 260 this past summer, then that means he in fact had to have gained 28 pounds over the summer.

I heard someone say you were full of shit. It's someone who covers people who are full of shit. Why would I make it up?

So, to be clear, you're saying it's not possible that he could be listed well above his listed weight and you're also accusing someone of making something as irrelevant as this up?

I guess Duncan still weighs 260 then. Who cares what his coach said, he's got to be lying, because the listing doesn't reflect what he said.

I never said he gained 15 pounds or how much he gained at a time, I said he may have and because these things aren't exactly up to the minute, we don't know how much he's put on at a time.

You are right about one thing though, I did say last season.

Steve Kerr, you didn't prove shit. I just proved to you that a players weight can be drastically different from it's listing. So why couldn't Noah's be?

[Steve Kerr]

Steve Kerr, you didn't prove shit. I just proved to you that a players weight can be drastically different from it's listing. So why couldn't Noah's be?
Yes, Noah's weight could be 260. Since the consensus seems to be that Noah weighs around 230, the burden of proof is on you to show he actually weighs 260. It's not my burden to prove he doesn't weigh 260.

[Steve Kerr]

I guess Duncan still weighs 260 then. Who cares what his coach said, he's got to be lying, because the listing doesn't reflect what he said.
So Vinny Del Negro said sometime last season that Noah weighed 260?

[Steve Kerr]

Someone who covers flying spaghetti monsters told me the flying spaghetti monster was going to sodomize TD 21 in 3 hours. Unless TD 21 can show me proof that the flying spaghetti monster isn't going to sodomize him in 3 hours, it must be true!

[TD 21]

There is no burden of proof, that's what you don't seem to get about this. You either believe it or you don't, I could care less. Even if I tried to, I more than likely couldn't find the source of this, so I did what I felt was the next best thing, which was give you an example of a player who's listed weight is drastically different from his real weight and examples of lanky players who weigh in Noah's vicinity, since you're acting like it's impossible that he weighs 260, as if I said he weighs 360. If that's not good enough, too bad.

[Steve Kerr]

There is no burden of proof, that's what you don't seem to get about this.
Me and the 5 other people in this thread who think you're being retarded.

[TD 21]

Good for you. I never said "you have to believe what I'm saying because it's coming from me".

You're the genius who thinks Noah isn't a good complement to Boozer, even though the consensus is that he is.

[Steve Kerr]

Good for you. I never said "you have to believe what I'm saying because it's coming from me".

You're the genius who thinks Noah isn't a good complement to Boozer, even though the consensus is that he is.
:lmao what consensus?

The funniest part of this thread is you questioning my credibility while being the internet dipshit making a ridiculous claim and saying, "I heard it from a source! I sware!"

[JamStone]

All the evidence there is says you're wrong.

If you "don't care" if anyone believes you or not, stop responding to all the posts that challenge what you claim. No one believes you. But since you don't care, don't respond.

[TD 21]

You have no credibility if you don't think Noah is a perfect compliment to Boozer, particularly defensively. If you knew anything about the game, you'd think he were an ideal fit.

There are things that are opinion based and then there are things that are a question of whether you know much about the game. This one falls into the latter category.

I knew someone would come with the cliche "if you don't care what people think, stop responding" line. Thank you for telling me why I was still responding.

[Steve Kerr]

You have no credibility if you don't think Noah is a perfect compliment to Boozer, particularly defensively. If you knew anything about the game, you'd think he were an ideal fit.
:lmao yup, I'm sure anyone who knows anything would agree an undersized center next to an undersized PF is an ideal fit.

[Steve Kerr]

Here comes something about how Noah weighs 260 and isn't undersized.

[TD 21]

Even if you think he weighs 232, he's still 6-11, has good length and is mobile. He is a rim protector and a defensive presence overall. That fits perfectly next to Boozer, who isn't any of those things.

Noah is exactly the type of center the Jazz needed next to Boozer for years. Okur was a fit offensively, because he can space the floor with his outside shooting, but he wasn't a fit defensively, because he's not mobile and is not a shot blocker.

By the way, the term undersized typically refers to height, not weight. At 6-11, he's not undersized.

[Steve Kerr]

So who on the Bulls guards Pau Gasol when they play LA?

[JamStone]

The term "undersized" can refer to height, length, weight, mass, bulk, strength. Just because you think it typically refers to height doesn't mean that's the case.

Joakim Noah is a good defender. He hustles. And he does have good height and length for a center. But he is absolutely undersized due to bulk, mass, and strength. He is a solid defender at center in today's NBA because the NBA is so devoid of quality centers. Look at the last two playoffs and you'll see where Noah gets exposed as he had to defend Perkins/KG and then an old Shaq. His defensive rating shot up from his regular season defensive rating. For reference, Dirk Nowitzki had a better defensive rating than Joakim in the playoffs last season. Noah still can get manhandled because he's light in the ass and simply not strong enough.

He's like Marcus Camby. Tall, long, above average athletically. But you match him up against a real center with real center size and he'll get handled. And something I mentioned earlier will always be a problem for Noah. He has a thin upper frame. He lacks broad shoulders that could allow him to bulk up adequately in the upper body. It's something physical he can't do anything about, just like Kevin Willis' short arms. Noah will always be thin and not quite strong enough in the upper body. Like Camby, he can play center against a lot of the other centers in the league, but he's probably better suited to play power forward, since he has the athleticism and agility to keep up with a lot of power forwards and he can play more weak side help defender from that position.

Noah isn't the perfect complement to Boozer. The perfect complement to Boozer would be a player like David Robinson. A guy who can play the high post on offense but is very good defensively in the low post. With Noah, you have two power forwards, both of which offer different liabilities on defense against the elite front courts of the league.

[JamStone]

So who on the Bulls guards Pau Gasol when they play LA?

Well since Pau shits all over Boozer, it would have to be Noah. But that means Boozer guards Bynum and gets dunked on every other play or has to chase Odom all over the court.

"Perfect" situation, if you ask me.

[TD 21]

The term "undersized" can refer to height, length, weight, mass, bulk, strength. Just because you think it typically refers to height doesn't mean that's the case.

Joakim Noah is a good defender. He hustles. And he does have good height and length for a center. But he is absolutely undersized due to bulk, mass, and strength. He is a solid defender at center in today's NBA because the NBA is so devoid of quality centers. Look at the last two playoffs and you'll see where Noah gets exposed as he had to defend Perkins/KG and then an old Shaq. His defensive rating shot up from his regular season defensive rating. For reference, Dirk Nowitzki had a better defensive rating than Joakim in the playoffs last season. Noah still can get manhandled because he's light in the ass and simply not strong enough.

He's like Marcus Camby. Tall, long, above average athletically. But you match him up against a real center with real center size and he'll get handled. And something I mentioned earlier will always be a problem for Noah. He has a thin upper frame. He lacks broad shoulders that could allow him to bulk up adequately in the upper body. It's something physical he can't do anything about, just like Kevin Willis' short arms. Noah will always be thin and not quite strong enough in the upper body. Like Camby, he can play center against a lot of the other centers in the league, but he's probably better suited to play power forward, since he has the athleticism and agility to keep up with a lot of power forwards and he can play more weak side help defender from that position.

Noah isn't the perfect complement to Boozer. The perfect complement to Boozer would be a player like David Robinson. A guy who can play the high post on offense but is very good defensively in the low post. With Noah, you have two power forwards, both of which offer different liabilities on defense against the elite front courts of the league.

If you're going to talk about what I said or take me to task for something, then just make sure to have what I said right and not make up your own version of it. I said the term undersized typically refers to height and it does; not it only refers to height.

I don't need an in depth write up on Noah's game, physique, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Although unlike you, I'm not so caught up in having a dispute or disagreement that I can't give credit where credit's due. So I'll admit, that's a decent write up.

Defensively, Noah is as perfect a complement to Boozer as the Bulls could possibly get. The ones that are better, they couldn't get, unless they were willing to surrender Rose.

Noah is a good passer, doesn't need the ball on offense to be effective and is an improving and better mid range shooter that he's given credit for being. Is he more of a PF than a true C? Definitely. But I'll let you in on a little secret: So are a lot of so called centers today. That's the way the game is.

[JamStone]

I know what you wrote. I took you to task because you're challenged DoK's assertion that Noah is undersized. You arguing now that it typically refers to height doesn't mean that's why DoK called him undersized so you now putting that into your argument is irrelevant since DoK obviously was NOT referring to his height.

Noah being "as perfect a complement to Boozer as the Bulls could possibly get" does not = "perfect complement to Boozer."




Noah is a good passer, doesn't need the ball on offense to be effective and is an improving and better mid range shooter that he's given credit for being. Is he more of a PF than a true C? Definitely. But I'll let you in on a little secret: So are a lot of so called centers today. That's the way the game is.

Which is essentially what I already said in my post and why Noah can get by playing center against many teams. It's when he plays against real centers that he'll get exposed for being undersized. That's the point.

[TD 21]

Undersized, while it can refer to not only height, as we've established, typically refers to it, therefore it can be misleading when someone refers to a 6-11 guy as "undersized". Did I know he meant? Absolutely. But I can play that game (psycho-analyze every word someone says because I'm intent on arguing with them), too.

Is "perfect complement" the right term? Probably not. But I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you knew what I meant.

[TinTin]

Is "perfect complement" the right term? Probably not. But I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you knew what I meant.

But come on man, we can't be sitting here trying to guess what you mean if you don't post it. None of us know each other to even guess what tone you are talking from.

If someone says to me that the player is 6'11 and he is undersized. I am going to guess his weight

[duncan228]

Rose Doesn't Expect Carmelo Soon (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/09/10/team-usa-notebook-importance-of-winning-gold-rose-on-carmelo/)
Team USA Notebook
By Chris Tomasson

While Chicago guard Derrick Rose said it's too early to think too much about the possibly having Carmelo Anthony as a teammate, he would love to play with the star forward.

"Why wouldn't I want to play with him?'' the Team USA starter told FanHouse.

ESPN.com reported earlier this week the Bulls are interested in trading for Anthony (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5550421), who reportedly wants out of Denver, and that Chicago center Joakim Noah is a possible key piece to go to the Nuggets.

"Right now, I think that we have our team (in order for the season),'' Rose said. "If it was something like (a trade for Anthony), I would have heard it (was close) or somebody would have called me. Nobody has called me yet.

"He's still in Denver. He hasn't said he wants to leave. So right now, I'm just playing it between the lines and worrying about what's going on (in Turkey).''