Geert Wilders 9/11 Ground Zero Speech

[DarrinS]

Dear friends,


May I ask you to be silent for ten seconds? Just be silent and listen. Ten seconds. And listen... What we hear are the sounds of life in the greatest city on earth. No place in the world, no place in human history, is as richly varied and vibrant and dynamic as New York City. You hear the cars, you hear the people, you hear them rushing to their various destinations, you hear the sounds of business and of pleasure, you hear the cheers, you hear the cries, the buzzing sounds of human activity. And that is how it should be. Always.


Now close your eyes - I know it's a beautiful day, but close your eyes. I have been told that this day nine years ago was just such a beautiful day -- and remember, or try to remember, or try to imagine the sounds which were heard here on this spot under this same blue sky exactly nine years ago. The sound of shock, the sound of destruction, the sound of panic, the sound of pain, the sound of terror.


Did New York deserve this? Did America deserve this? Did the West deserve this? What, my friends, would you say to people who argue that New York, that America, that the West had itself to blame for those horrible sounds? There are people in this city who argue this. And they are angry because we are gathered here today to commemorate, to make a stand, to draw the line.


My friends, I have come from the other side of the Atlantic to share your grief for those who died here nine years ago.I have not forgotten how I felt that day. The scenes are imprinted on my soul, as they are on yours. But our hearts were not broken in the same way as the hearts of the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives here. Many relatives of the victims are here in our midst today. I wish to take this opportunity to express my deepest and most heartfelt condolences to them and to all of the people of New York and America.



Darryl Worley - Have You Forgotten?


Humbly, I stand here before you as a Dutchman and a European. I, too, however, cannot forget. How can anyone forget? Let me remind you of the words from Darryl Worley's 9/11 song.


Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell

Worley's response is our response: No, we will NEVER forget. We are here today because we have not forgotten all the loved ones that were lost and those left to carry on. And neither has the world. When the forces of Jihad attacked New York, they attacked the world.


Among those lost were people from 55 nations, people of every religion and every persuasion. No place on earth had a more multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and multi-lingual workforce than New York's proud towers. That is exactly why they were targeted. They constituted an insult to those who hold that there can be no peaceful cooperation among people and nations without submission to Sharia; to those who wish to impose the legal system of Islam on the rest of us. But New York and Sharia are incompatible.


New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York's Mayor recently said that New York is "rooted in Dutch tolerance". Those are true words. New York is not intolerant. How can it be? New York is open to the world. Suppose New York were intolerant. Suppose it only allowed people of one persuasion within its walls. Then it would be like Mecca, a city without freedom. Whatever your religion, persuasion or gender is, in New York you will find a home. In Mecca, if your religion isn't Islam, you are not welcome.


Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf claims the right to build a mosque, a house of Sharia here - on this hallowed ground. But, friends, I have not forgotten and neither have you. That is why we are here today. To draw the line. Here, on this sacred spot. We are here in the spirit of America's founding fathers. We are here in the spirit of freedom. We are here in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln, the President who freed the slaves. President Lincoln said: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." These words are the key to our survival. The tolerance that is crucial to our freedom requires a line of defense.


Mayor Bloomberg uses tolerance as an argument to allow Imam Rauf and his sponsors to build their so-called Cordoba Mosque. Mayor Bloomberg forgets, however, that openness cannot be open-ended. A tolerant society is not a suicidal society. It must defend itself against the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance. It cannot tolerate the intolerant - and survive. This means that we must not give a free hand to those who want to subjugate us. An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building this mosque. So is an overwhelming majority everywhere in the non-Islamic world. Because we all realize what is at stake here. We know what this so-called Cordoba mosque really means.


Imam Rauf maintains that American secular law and Sharia law are based on the same principles. He refuses to condemn terrorists because he says terrorism is "a very complex question". He says America is "an accessory to the crime that happened on 9/11." "In fact," he literally said, "in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA."He also says that "terrorism will only end when the West acknowledges the harm it has done to Muslims."


That is why this man should not play the game he has in mind here in Manhattan. His "Blame the West, Blame America"-message is an insult. Americans - and by extension, all of us whose civilization was also attacked on 9/11/2001 - are not to blame for what happened here nine years ago today.


Osama bin Laden is not made in the USA. The West never "harmed" Islam before it harmed us. Most Americans do not want this so-called Cordoba Mosque to be built here. They understand that it is both a provocation and a humiliation. They understand the triumphant narrative of a mosque named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba which was constructed where a Christian cathedral stood before the land was conquered by Islam.


An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building an Islamic cultural center close to Ground Zero. There is no lack of mosques in New York. There are dozens of buildings in which Muslims can pray. It isn't about a lack of space for prayers. It's about the symbolic meaning.


We who have come to speak today, object to this mosque project because its promoter and his wealthy sponsors have never suggested building a center to promote tolerance and interfaith understanding where it is really needed: In Mecca - a town where non-Muslims are not even allowed to enter, let alone build churches, synagogues, temples or community centers. So why should we do that?


Ordinary Americans object to the mosque project because currently no fewer than ten major multi-million dollar mosque projects are being planned in the United States as well as dozens in Europe, while not a single church is allowed in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia,while Jews are not even allowed to move their lips in prayer on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,while the oldest Christians in the world, the Copts, are not free to renovate their churches, let alone to build one in Egypt.


My friends, that is why we are here today. What happens in New York must be seen in the perspective of the world. The events nine years ago made an enormous impact everywhere. Most people shared your pain, but, unfortunately, some did not. Nine years ago, when the news of the terrible atrocity in New York reached Europe, Muslim youths danced in the streets.


In a poll, two thirds of the Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands expressed partial or full understanding for the 9/11 terrorists.If a mosque were built here on Ground Zero such people would feel triumphant. But we, we will not betray those who died on 9/11. For their sakes we cannot tolerate a mosque on or near Ground Zero. For their sakes loud and clear we say: No mosque here! For their sakes, we must draw the line. So that New York, rooted in Dutch tolerance, will never become New Mecca.


But, let us also express our gratitude for the heroes of 9/11, those who went down in that Pennsylvania field, those who were standing freedom's watch at the Pentagon, and those who were here in New York nine years ago to risk and lose their lives for the victims. Friends, in honor of these victims, these heroes and their families, I believe that the words of Ronald Reagan, spoken in Normandy on the 40th anniversary of D-Day, resonate with new purpose on this hallowed spot.


President Reagan said: "We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free." And, we, too, will always remember the victims of 9/11 and their loved ones who were left behind;We, too, will always be proud of the heroes;We will always defend liberty, democracy and human dignity;In the name of freedom: No mosque here!

[boutons_deux]

"Why do they hate us?"

[DMX7]

Intolerance in the name of FREEDOMMM!!!!!

[DarrinS]

"Why do they hate us?"


Because of our foreign policy.

Sincerely,

Dumb Liberal

[Ignignokt]

Intolerance in the name of FREEDOMMM!!!!!

Being intolerant against intolerance is not a contradiction lest you chose to be tolerant to intolerance.

[Oh, Gee!!]

we should make decisions based on what Muslim countries would do under similar circumstances. that'll learn 'em!

[boutons_deux]

OBL said he attacked WTC because US military boots were occupying his sacred Saudi Arabian soil, a direct result of US foreign policy.

I'd like to see US bubbas and NRA gun fetishists handle Mexican Army occupying US soil, even if invited by US govt.

Throw in foreign policy of 1000% support by US of Israel's genocide in Gaza, and we've given Muslims, and others, plenty of reason to hate USA.

Now throw in the US capitalists fucking up the world's economy. It all adds up.

Words and actions have consequences and repercussions.

[DarrinS]

I'm dumb.

[Parker2112]

Darrell Worley reference = pure dee fail. yee-haw.

[DarrinS]

Darrell Worley reference = pure dee fail. yee-haw.


Dutch politician = redneck


Uh, ok.

[Parker2112]

Lets all enjoy a time or two

p6yLQRF-cEU

[DMX7]

Being intolerant against intolerance is not a contradiction lest you chose to be tolerant to intolerance.

I'll be sure to write that down. :lol

[boutons_deux]

all countries have hate-driven, xenophobic, nativist, spittle-spewing dumbfucks, even social democracies and progressive countries like NL.

[Parker2112]

Tying 9-11 and Iraq makes me pissed/sad

Darrell Worley using 9-11 in creating a rally cry to invade Iraq = no fucking common sense. Fuggin typical.

"we're out lookin' for a fight, Man I'd have to say youre right."

DarrinS posting this bullshit citing his redneck heroes: same shit different year.

[Blake]

Being intolerant against intolerance is not a contradiction lest you chose to be tolerant to intolerance.

The community center is not being intolerant to anyone.

[Blake]

New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York's Mayor recently said that New York is "rooted in Dutch tolerance". Those are true words. New York is not intolerant. How can it be? New York is open to the world. Suppose New York were intolerant. Suppose it only allowed people of one persuasion within its walls. Then it would be like Mecca, a city without freedom. Whatever your religion, persuasion or gender is, in New York you will find a home. In Mecca, if your religion isn't Islam, you are not welcome.

......

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf claims the right to build a mosque, a house of Sharia here - on this hallowed ground. But, friends, I have not forgotten and neither have you. That is why we are here today. To draw the line. Here, on this sacred spot. We are here in the spirit of America's founding fathers. We are here in the spirit of freedom. We are here in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln, the President who freed the slaves. President Lincoln said: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." These words are the key to our survival. The tolerance that is crucial to our freedom requires a line of defense.


........We will always defend liberty, democracy and human dignity;In the name of freedom: No mosque here!

so basically he is asking New York to stop standing for freedom, openness and tolerance.

What a fucking idiot.

[Parker2112]

I'm getting so fucking tired of Repubs claiming Lincoln and the founding fathers in the name of the party platform: division of citizens along biggoted lines (black/white, christian/muslim, citizen/immagrant), corporate freedoms and imperialistic acts of war.

Fuck that noise.

[ChumpDumper]

What is the point here?

The USA > Saudi Arabia?

Bold.

[George Gervin's Afro]

They hate us for our freedom!


(unless you want to build a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero)

[ChumpDumper]

President Lincoln said: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves."So we should deny freedom because some other country denies freedom!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Because of our foreign policy.

Sincerely,

Dumb Liberal

We're prefect! The USA has never had one foreign policy that adversely affected anyone!

[DarrinS]

We're prefect! The USA has never had one foreign policy that adversely affected anyone!


Their Islamic faith is purely coincidental.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Their Islamic faith is purely coincidental.

I'm glad you let me know that we have never done anything in our self interest that has pissed other people off... USA, USA, USA!

[Blake]

Their Islamic faith is purely coincidental.

Their Islamic faith is irrelevant in America unless you are intolerant of others' religions.

[ChumpDumper]

Why is some foreigner telling us what we can and can't do?

[DarrinS]

I'm glad you let me know that we have never done anything in our self interest that has pissed other people off... USA, USA, USA!

There are lots of countries that we've pissed off over the years that aren't conducting suicide missions against us.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Because of our foreign policy.

Sincerely,

Dumb Liberal


There are lots of countries that we've pissed off over the years that aren't conducting suicide missions against us.

[ChumpDumper]

There are lots of countries that we've pissed off over the years that aren't conducting suicide missions against us.Al Qaeda is not a country.

You're an idiot.

[DarrinS]

I'm dumb.

[Winehole23]

^^^one note Johnny.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm an idiot Islamophobe who thinks Al Qaeda is a country.

[DarrinS]

^^^one note Johnny.

From the guy who posts "(burp)" ten times in each thread.

[Winehole23]

Spurstalk promotes dyspepsia.

[ChumpDumper]

I'd say it's once a thread. Give a good indication of his state of mind.

[Winehole23]

Sure does.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America; they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior," Bush said.

The president reiterated his firm commitment to protecting the constitutional rights and honoring the important role of the Muslim community in the United States.

In no uncertain terms, Bush said: "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."

America, he said, "counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads."

[TeyshaBlue]

DarrinS has met his RDA of pointless posts today. Excellent.

[boutons_deux]

afaik, dubya has not, in the MOSK bogus controversy, repeated his Muslim-Americans-are-cool proclamation.

[Winehole23]

Bush has been staying out of political controversies pretty much totally. This issue is no exception.

[Ignignokt]

Darrin didn't say alqueda was a country. I see why Chumpdumpers riding him, that's because he goes for the easy strawmen victories, and shameless douchers like W23 and Teyshablue nutride along the way.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Darrin didn't say alqueda was a country. I see why Chumpdumpers riding him, that's because he goes for the easy strawmen victories, and shameless douchers like W23 and Teyshablue nutride along the way.

So, do you disagree with Bush on this one?

[Ignignokt]

GGAsshole, so now you think Bush is relevant?

[Ignignokt]

So, do you disagree with Bush on this one?

If you were literate you wouldn't have to ask this question.

[LnGrrrR]

All I can think of is South Park's "9/11" episode.

[ChumpDumper]

Aww, gtown is here to save his gay lover because he is gay.

How gay.[/gaytownspeak]

[Ignignokt]

Aww, gtown is here to save his gay lover because he is gay.

How gay.[/gaytownspeak]

Failure to quote is pretty gay.

Getting fired as a mod for being a total diva is pretty gay tbh

[ChumpDumper]

And you know gay.

Because you're gay tbh.[/gaytownspeak]

[Blake]

There are lots of countries that we've pissed off over the years that aren't conducting suicide missions against us.


Darrin didn't say alqueda was a country. I see why Chumpdumpers riding him, that's because he goes for the easy strawmen victories, and shameless douchers like W23 and Teyshablue nutride along the way.

Then what do you think Darrin was referring to?

What country has conducted a suicide mission against us?

[clambake]

What country has conducted a suicide mission against us?

al-qaeda from the US.

[Ignignokt]

And you know gay.

Because you're gay tbh.[/gaytownspeak]


And you're gay

because you fantasize about me and is obsessed. That's why you're responding to all my posts. [/cumdumpsterspeak]

[Ignignokt]

Then what do you think Darrin was referring to?

What country has conducted a suicide mission against us?

You might hate Darrin, but you've been on this board long enough to know that's not what he meant.

Why do you have to resort to distorting peoples arguments?

[Spurminator]

So Darrin, you thought this was a good speech?

[Spurminator]

New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York's Mayor recently said that New York is "rooted in Dutch tolerance". Those are true words. New York is not intolerant. How can it be? New York is open to the world. Suppose New York were intolerant. Suppose it only allowed people of one persuasion within its walls. Then it would be like Mecca, a city without freedom. Whatever your religion, persuasion or gender is, in New York you will find a home. In Mecca, if your religion isn't Islam, you are not welcome.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf claims the right to build a mosque, a house of Sharia here - on this hallowed ground. But, friends, I have not forgotten and neither have you. That is why we are here today. To draw the line. Here, on this sacred spot. You know... like Mecca.

[Blake]

You might hate Darrin, but you've been on this board long enough to know that's not what he meant.

Why do you have to resort to distorting peoples arguments?

I've been on this board long enough to think that is exactly what he meant.

If it's not, I have no idea what he meant. Please fill me in on what he meant.

[Ignignokt]

I've been on this board long enough to think that is exactly what he meant.

If it's not, I have no idea what he meant. Please fill me in on what he meant.

You're full of shit.

You're more concerned about ridicule than addressing his point.

[Blake]

You're full of shit.

You're more concerned about ridicule than addressing his point.

You're more concerned with saying I'm full of shit than addressing his point which you claim is being misread.

The ridicule is just a side effect.

[Ignignokt]

You're more concerned with saying I'm full of shit than addressing his point which you claim is being misread.

The ridicule is just a side effect.

So all this time Darrin has been demonstrating Alqueda was a country?

You're so full of shit blake, i can't believe I had to ask that question.

I think you're the only one here that truly believes darrin has been arguing that Alqueda was a state, all the others here are just trolling.

Jokes on you.

[Blake]

So all this time Darrin has been demonstrating Alqueda was a country?

You're so full of shit blake, i can't believe I had to ask that question.

I think you're the only one here that truly believes darrin has been arguing that Alqueda was a state, all the others here are just trolling.

Jokes on you.


There are lots of countries that we've pissed off over the years that aren't conducting suicide missions against us.

CD said "Al Qaeda", not me.

I think the underlying notion in Darrin's statement is that there has been a country(ies) that actually has conducted a suicide mission against us. I'm asking "what country was it?"

Obviously I'm not the only one that caught this notion.

[Ignignokt]

CD said "Al Qaeda", not me.

I think the underlying notion in Darrin's statement is that there has been a country(ies) that actually has conducted a suicide mission against us. I'm asking "what country was it?"

Obviously I'm not the only one that caught this notion.

yeah you are. You're not taking into consideration the context of this thread. but whatever.

[DarrinS]

CD said "Al Qaeda", not me.

I think the underlying notion in Darrin's statement is that there has been a country(ies) that actually has conducted a suicide mission against us. I'm asking "what country was it?"

Obviously I'm not the only one that caught this notion.



PEOPLE from those countries aren't conducting suicide missions against us.

The only PEOPLE that seem to be involved in this activity just happen to be from Islamic states.

Yes, everyone knows that Al Qaeda is not a country and, anyone who is honest, knows that I never suggested such a thing.

[Blake]

PEOPLE from those countries aren't conducting suicide missions against us.

The only PEOPLE that seem to be involved in this activity just happen to be from Islamic states.



So we were attacked by citizens of the United States of Arabia.

Good thing we struck back. :tu

[Winehole23]

The only PEOPLE that seem to be involved in this activity just happen to be from Islamic states.You never get tired of trying to turn your own ignorance into a generalization. Ever hear of the Tamil Tigers?

[DarrinS]

You never get tired of trying to turn your own ignorance into a generalization. Ever hear of the Tamil Tigers?

Have they been attacking us?

[Winehole23]

I didn't suggest they have.

You, however, suggested suicide attacks were peculiar to Muslims. They aren't.

[LnGrrrR]

The only PEOPLE that seem to be involved in this activity just happen to be from Islamic states.

Let's point out a distinction though; it's not that TERRORISM is unique to Islam, but suicide bombing does seem to be prevalent among that culture. I have no idea why... you'd think you'd want to keep everyone committed to your cause rather than killing them off. :lol

It is peculiar. I don't think it in any way implies that ALL Muslims are possible terrorists, of course.

[LnGrrrR]

You never get tired of trying to turn your own ignorance into a generalization. Ever hear of the Tamil Tigers?

Looking at a broader point, why do you think that al quaeda and sympathizers to their cause use suicide bombing at such a (relatively) high rate? A few possible logistical reasons:

1) It's relatively cheap/easy to make a bomb, and other supplies like guns might be limited, meaning only the trusted soldiers get access to weapons. (This doesn't seem to bear out logically though. How hard are guns to purchase for criminals, after all?)

2) It's greatly disturbing psychologically to the occupying force, as any potential "victim" may in fact be an attacker. Additionally, it shows the lengths a group may go to, including death. This could rattle the opposing force.

That's really all I have. Any thoughts WH?

[Winehole23]

but suicide bombing does seem to be prevalent among that culture. I have no idea why... Lebanon's civil war and the Intifada?

[Winehole23]

It's a tactic, nothing more. Why it should be considered more insidious or pernicious than any other form of mass slaughter escapes me.

[LnGrrrR]

It's a tactic, nothing more. Why it should be considered more insidious or pernicious than any other form of mass slaughter escapes me.

Yes, but I fail to see how said tactic could work better in the long run than amassing a militia of like-minded participants. I assume when you're working with bad guys like AQ, they don't really care too much if you off yourself in furtherance of their cause; one less link to lead back to them.

But why the willingness to use this tactic by these members of the populace? I'm sure the poor conditions are a major factor, but does religion have any sort of influence?

In other words, what are the factors that influence a suicide bomber? Poor environment? Low education? Etc etc. After all, I can't imagine many Americans willing to suicide bomb; I would imagine that assembling a small militia would be more feasible for theoretical American radicals/terrorists hoping to accomplish a similar goal.

[LnGrrrR]

It's a tactic, nothing more. Why it should be considered more insidious or pernicious than any other form of mass slaughter escapes me.

Additionally, two things stand out to me that isolate a suicide bomber from mass slaughter: as mentioned earlier, the tendency for these suicide bombers to play upon the compassion of those willing to help (similar to a roadside hijacker that sits on the side of the road with a busted tire), and the mindset it would take to sacrifice yourself. It's one thing to slaughter others, it's another to take your own life when you do so.

[clambake]

the tactic is also to promote fear.

ask darrin. he's knows all about that.

[Winehole23]

But why the willingness to use this tactic by these members of the populace... but does religion have any sort of influence?Religion can have any sort of influence, yes. For good and for ill.

[LnGrrrR]

Religion can have any sort of influence, yes. For good and for ill.

Well of course WH. The question is, do you think/know it is a significant factor in their choice of tactics? Or is the tactic chosen more due to other factors?

I honestly don't know; figured you might have come across something in your travels that would elucidate this issue.

[Winehole23]

Additionally, two things stand out to me that isolate a suicide bomber from mass slaughter: as mentioned earlier, the tendency for these suicide bombers to play upon the compassion of those willing to help (similar to a roadside hijacker that sits on the side of the road with a busted tire)...Sure. The targeting of innocents deserves to be mentioned in connection with preying on people's goodness/confidence in others.

But is the willingness to die as such an aggravating circumstance?

If so, how so?

[Winehole23]

Well of course WH. The question is, do you think/know it is a significant factor in their choice of tactics?If Islam as such was a motivator I'd have expected to see more suicide attacks by Muslims before 1980. Islam has been around since the 7th century.


Or is the tactic chosen more due to other factors?Personally, I don't know.

WRT this, Robert Pape's book on terrorism might interest you. (Disclosure: I haven't read it.) His hypothesis is that terrorism in all its forms mostly aims at political goals. For Papes statelessness/nationalism are better predictors than religion for the frequency of resort to terrorist tactics.

[Winehole23]

Types of Attacks
Most attacks in 2009 were perpetrated by terrorists applying conventional methods such as armed attacks, bombings, and kidnappings. Drawing on the lessons learned from the Mumbai attack in 2008, Sunni extremist elements used suicidal militia style attacks in numerous large scale attacks in 2009. Terrorists continued their practice of coordinated attacks that included secondary attacks on first responders at attack sites; they also continued to reconfigure weapons and other materials to create improvised explosive devices, and used women and children to evade security counter-measures.


Suicide attacks declined from 405 in 2008 to 299 in 2009. This was largely due to declining violence in Iraq. A total of 13 countries experienced suicide attacks in 2009. The country with highest number of suicide bombings was Afghanistan with 99, followed by Pakistan with 84, and Iraq with 82.
Attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan accounted for about 60 percent of all terrorist attacks.
Al-Qa’ida in Iraq used dual suicide bombers to target the residence of an anti-terrorism police official and first responders and on-lookers, killing 12 police officers, 24 civilians, and wounding 83 civilians and children.
Attacks by female suicide bombers declined significantly from 2008, accounting for only seven of the 299 total suicide attacks. Three of these attacks occurred in Iraq, two in Sri Lanka, and two in Russia.
In Thailand, Muslim separatists used a woman and child to park VBIEDs in an effort to avoid suspicion and security procedures.

WRT the bolded, what's the common thread?

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2009/140902.htm

[EVAY]

Am I the only one who finds irony in quoting Lincoln's: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves" as a reason to deny
the freedom to build a mosque near ground zero?

[LnGrrrR]

Sure. The targeting of innocents deserves to be mentioned in connection with preying on people's goodness/confidence in others.

But is the willingness to die as such an aggravating circumstance?

If so, how so?

I guess the targeting of innocents, and the willingness to die, are separate factors. Both seem creepy to me, and to me, have a synergistic effect in combination, working well to weird me out.

[Winehole23]

Yeah. I think someone mentioned that upstream. Pretty rich.

[LnGrrrR]

WRT the bolded, what's the common thread?

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2009/140902.htm

Eh, that's just talking about terrorist attacks in general. Totally understand those; just wondering about the specific "suicide bomber" subset. From your link:


Suicide attacks declined from 405 in 2008 to 299 in 2009. This was largely due to declining violence in Iraq. A total of 13 countries experienced suicide attacks in 2009. The country with highest number of suicide bombings was Afghanistan with 99, followed by Pakistan with 84, and Iraq with 82.


I'm wondering why suicide attacks are so prevalent in these areas, and if we could isolate a few factors, or whether they all must work in conjunction to motivate these people.

Also, I don't believe in a hell, but I wish there were one for whoever thought up and/or use the "use a small bomb to attract first responders, than a big bomb to blow up the first responders" method.

[ChumpDumper]

You're full of shit.

You're more concerned about ridicule than addressing his point.:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[Ignignokt]

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

I agree, being butthurt about losing mod position gives me the lulz too.

[ElNono]

I'm wondering why suicide attacks are so prevalent in these areas, and if we could isolate a few factors, or whether they all must work in conjunction to motivate these people.

I think it's cultural, as in how the society in any given place at a particular time perceives suicidal martyrdom vs capture/defeat/shame. It's really not much different than the Bushido code that ingrained deeply the Japanese army in WW2 and led to Kamikaze attacks back then (and had nothing to do with Islam, obviously).

Ultimately, be it through abstract concepts such as honor or religion, you can always brain wash gullible people into doing stupid things. I think the society around them in general simply applies more peer pressure.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree, being butthurt about losing mod position gives me the lulz too.
You're full of shit.

You're more concerned about ridicule than addressing his point.

[DarrinS]

I think it's cultural, as in how the society in any given place at a particular time perceives suicidal martyrdom vs capture/defeat/shame. It's really not much different than the Bushido code that ingrained deeply the Japanese army in WW2 and led to Kamikaze attacks back then (and had nothing to do with Islam, obviously).


See documentary "Wings of Defeat". Japanese Kamikaze pilots have ZERO in common with Islamic terrorists.




Ultimately, be it through abstract concepts such as honor or religion, you can always brain wash gullible people into doing stupid things. I think the society around them in general simply applies more peer pressure.

9/11 pilots were educated people.

[Drachen]

I have a question. Are republicans the advocates for the so-called New World Order, or One world order, whatever it's called nowadays?? I ask this because they keep citing other countries laws and practices when arguing for how the United States should make our decisions.

I am a little confused here.

[ChumpDumper]

See documentary "Wings of Defeat". Japanese Kamikaze pilots have ZERO in common with Islamic terrorists.Except that they launched suicide missions against the US.


9/11 pilots were educated people.You have proved time and again a person can be both educated and gullible, DarrinS.

[LnGrrrR]

See documentary "Wings of Defeat". Japanese Kamikaze pilots have ZERO in common with Islamic terrorists.

Except committing suicide in furtherance of their goals. I'd say that's something that they have in common.

[DarrinS]

Except committing suicide in furtherance of their goals. I'd say that's something that they have in common.


I see that both you and chump haven't seen that documentary.



I also suggest this book.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P50838GSL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

I have a question. Are republicans the advocates for the so-called New World Order, or One world order, whatever it's called nowadays?? I ask this because they keep citing other countries laws and practices when arguing for how the United States should make our decisions.

I am a little confused here.

Democrats are the party of moral relativism!

- signed, Republicans

[LnGrrrR]

I see that both you and chump haven't seen that documentary.

Let's make this easy.

Do you agree/deny that Kamikaze pilots committed suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?

Do you agree/deny that suicide bombers commit suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?

[ChumpDumper]

I see that both you and chump haven't seen that documentary.



I also suggest this book.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P50838GSL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpgThanks. I have already suggested and quoted this book several times on this board.

How are they different? Use your words, Darrin.

[DarrinS]

Let's make this easy.

Do you agree/deny that Kamikaze pilots committed suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?

Do you agree/deny that suicide bombers commit suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?


One groups mission was to kill as many civilians as possible and to die a martyr. The other, not so much.

[ChumpDumper]

One groups mission was to kill as many civilians as possible and to die a martyr. The other, not so much.Nice dodge.

Just answer his questions.

And please don't get us started on the Japanese killing of civilians. You truly do not want to go there.

[ElNono]

See documentary "Wings of Defeat". Japanese Kamikaze pilots have ZERO in common with Islamic terrorists.

How so? They committed suicide in furtherance of their cause, because their honor code taught them that it was 'better' to die fighting than surrender and admit defeat. What you see today in radical Islam is pretty similar but with religion and the promised automatic salvation by Allah for those that offer their lives in martyrdom... They're not exactly the same, but they've much more in common than ZERO...

For example, the Jap society viewed the military code of honor as a revered, heroic quality. Which is not far off from how the more radicalized Islam society sees their suicide bombers these days.


9/11 pilots were educated people.

Educated and gullible are not mutually exclusive.

[ElNono]

One groups mission was to kill as many civilians as possible and to die a martyr. The other, not so much.

So they have some things in common, not ZERO. :rolleyes

[LnGrrrR]

One groups mission was to kill as many civilians as possible and to die a martyr. The other, not so much.

Let's try this again.

Do you agree/deny that Kamikaze pilots committed suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?

Do you agree/deny that suicide bombers commit suicide in order to further advance their cause/mission?

Thanks.

[Ignignokt]

It's ok, i have no point anyway.

[Ignignokt]

Chumpdumper being a mental midget and all would equate the Kamikaze pilots with mohammed atta. Fucking idiot.

Did Kamikaze pilots target innocent civilians???

[Spurminator]

I don't see what any of this has to do with the American Muslims who would be visiting and praying at the mosque everyone's bitching about.

[ElNono]

Did Kamikaze pilots target innocent civilians???

For a country that murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals during just a six week period in World War II, you would know that civilians was fair game to them. If kamikaze pilots didn't target civilians, it just merely indicates that their military command thought the ships were a target of higher military value.

That our culture tries to honor the distinction between civilians and military personnel during war time doesn't necessarily mean that the other cultures do too.

[ChumpDumper]

Chumpdumper being a mental midget and all would equate the Kamikaze pilots with mohammed atta. Fucking idiot.

Did Kamikaze pilots target innocent civilians???Did they commit suicide to further their cause? I'm sure they would have been fine with killing American civilians if they were anywhere near the battles in which kamikazes committed suicide.

Are you really trying to say the Japanese were good guys during WWII?

Really?

[DarrinS]

I don't see what any of this has to do with the American Muslims who would be visiting and praying at the mosque everyone's bitching about.


Islamic cultural center, theme park, and women's spa.

Keep it straight.

[ChumpDumper]

For a country that murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals during just a six week period in World War II, you would know that civilians was fair game to them. If kamikaze pilots didn't target civilians, it just merely indicates that their military command thought the ships were a target of higher military value.

That our culture tries to honor the distinction between civilians and military personnel during war time doesn't necessarily mean that the other cultures do too.No, Iggy thinks the Japanese were nice guys in Nanking.

What a fucking idiot. It's amazing.

[Spurminator]

Islamic cultural center, theme park, and women's spa.

Keep it straight.

You forgot terror recruitment center and suicide bombing training class.

[DarrinS]

You forgot terror recruitment center and suicide bombing training class.

A lot of them are.

The one they closed down in Hamburg, Germany was.

Or the Brooklyn's Farouq mosque.

[ChumpDumper]

A lot of them are.

The one they closed down in Hamburg, Germany was.

Or the Brooklyn's Farouq mosque.So this one has to be considered a threat, right?

[DarrinS]

So this one has to be considered a threat, right?


It will be heavily scrutinized for some unknown reason.

[ChumpDumper]

It will be heavily scrutinized for some unknown reason.So you consider it a threat?

Yes or no.

[Spurminator]

A lot of them are.

The one they closed down in Hamburg, Germany was.

Or the Brooklyn's Farouq mosque.

A LOT??

How many American mosques, expressed as a percentage of total American mosques, have been shut down due to terrorist/anti-American activities? I can't wait to see how you quantify "a lot."

[LnGrrrR]

A LOT??

How many American mosques, expressed as a percentage of total American mosques, have been shut down due to terrorist/anti-American activities? I can't wait to see how you quantify "a lot."

Alot in the same way that alot of Christians should be suspected terrorists, since Christians tend to be the ones threatening abortion clinics.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So now the mosque issue has evolved into " well the mosque could be a........"


But you're not Islamaphobic...

[Winehole23]

shots fired, gunmen killed at Garland, TX art contest:

http://abc13.com/news/one-suspected-gunman-in-garland-shooting-identified/695019/

[boutons_deux]

shots fired, gunmen killed at Garland, TX art contest:

http://abc13.com/news/one-suspected-gunman-in-garland-shooting-identified/695019/

Muslim-baiter/hater Gellar's organization. She has the dead guard's blood on her hands.

[ChumpDumper]

lol this thread.

No wonder gtown and Darrin don't even try to discuss issues anymore.

:cry The Japanese never killed no civilians in WWII! :cry

[Spurminator]

Muslim-baiter/hater Gellar's organization. She has the dead guard's blood on her hands.

The guard was shot in the ankle and released from the hospital the same night.

[boutons_deux]

The guard was shot in the ankle and released from the hospital the same night.

he didn't bleed?

[Spurminator]

he didn't bleed?

You said dead guard.

[Winehole23]

Muslim-baiter/hater Gellar's organization. She has the dead guard's blood on her hands.actually, it runs the other way. the $10,000 for extra security was well spent. alert officers extinguished the threat, possibly saved lives.

[boutons_deux]

actually, you have your head up your ass.

Jew Gellar paid for, organized a cartoon contest to bait, trash, mock Muslims for the pure, vicious entertainment value for Muslim haters.

[ChumpDumper]

actually, you have your head up your ass.

Jew Gellar paid for, organized a cartoon contest to bait, trash, mock Muslims for the pure, vicious entertainment value for Muslim haters.And all but two Muslims in the entire north Texas area failed to give a shit about it.

I question the school district's wisdom in booking the event in the first place given the security issues, but freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

[AntiChrist]

And all but two Muslims in the entire north Texas area failed to give a shit about it.

I question the school district's wisdom in booking the event in the first place given the security issues, but freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


Why would there be security issues? Isn't it Islamophobic to believe there would be any security issues?

[ChumpDumper]

Why would there be security issues? Isn't it Islamophobic to believe there would be any security issues?lol Darrin's still being a dumbass.

I'm sure they had extra security when the Muslims used the facility too. Why would that be, Darrin?

[Winehole23]

boutons: Jew Gellar? you mean Pamela Gellar. she didn't pull the trigger, she just sponsored the draw Mohammed contest.

[Winehole23]

who won, btw?

[AntiChrist]

Absolutely zero people shocked by this new, btw.

[Winehole23]

attendees were mostly from out of state

[Winehole23]

And all but two Muslims in the entire north Texas area failed to give a shit about it.shooters are from Arizona.

http://www.ibtimes.com/elton-simpson-idd-1-draw-muhammad-contest-shooters-garland-texas-1906954

[ChumpDumper]

Absolutely zero people shocked by this new, btw.Were you shocked by Jerad and Amanda Miller, Darrin?

Do you know who they are without Googling?

[AntiChrist]

Were you shocked by Jerad and Amanda Miller, Darrin?

Do you know who they are without Googling?


Nope

[boutons_deux]

boutons (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=211): Jew Gellar? you mean Pamela Gellar. she didn't pull the trigger, she just sponsored the draw Mohammed contest.

sponsored? A LOT more than "sponsor"

Who Is Muhammad Cartoon Contest Organizer Pamela Geller?

She’s claimed Obama is the secret Muslim love child of Malcolm X and compared Muslims to savages. Meet the blogger behind the controversial Texas event that came under attack Sunday.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/04/up-to-speed-who-is-muhammad-cartoon-contest-organizer-pamela-geller.html

She's claiming the (Jew) War on Muslims and on sharia taking over America is now in USA.

The world would a much better place without Religion.

[Winehole23]

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2014/06/09/jerad-amanda-miller.jpg?itok=Ni_EfgOp

[Winehole23]

Cliven Bundy sympathizers, allegedly

[Winehole23]

sponsored? A LOT more than "sponsor"

Who Is Muhammad Cartoon Contest Organizer Pamela Geller?

She’s claimed Obama is the secret Muslim love child of Malcolm X and compared Muslims to savages. Meet the blogger behind the controversial Texas event that came under attack Sunday.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/04/up-to-speed-who-is-muhammad-cartoon-contest-organizer-pamela-geller.html

She's claiming the (Jew) War on Muslims and sharia taking over America is now in USA.


I'm familiar with Pamela Gellar, boutons.

She's what Sarah Palin would look like if she had half a brain and said what was really on her mind.

[AntiChrist]

Were you shocked by Jerad and Amanda Miller, Darrin?

Do you know who they are without Googling?


After Googling, I'm not sure what they have to do with anything.

[Winehole23]

it's the typical sort of terroristic attack in the USA. are you minimizing it?

[ChumpDumper]

NopeShocking.

Dumbass,

[ChumpDumper]

After Googling, I'm not sure what they have to do with anything.Shocking.

Dumbass.

[Winehole23]

shooter at the scene:

http://static1.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2209377.1430749388!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/prophet-cartoon-contest-shooting.jpg

[AntiChrist]

Shocking.

Dumbass.


Why are you so angry?

[ChumpDumper]

Why are you so angry?I am gleefully calling you a dumbass.

[AntiChrist]

I am gleefully calling you a dumbass.

If that's what fills you with glee. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

If that's what fills you with glee. :lolIt's fun.

Especially when you put your ignorance on full display for all to see.

[AntiChrist]

It's fun.

Especially when you put your ignorance on full display for all to see.


Yaaay!

http://www.kcconfidential.com/userfiles/carson__1.jpg

[Winehole23]

AntiChrist: did you see the shooter's bald white head in the picture?

[AntiChrist]

AntiChrist (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14313): did you see the shooter's bald white head in the picture?

Point?

[ChumpDumper]

Yaaay!

http://www.kcconfidential.com/userfiles/carson__1.jpgWhat is that supposed to mean, Darrin?

[Winehole23]

Point?made no impression? is unsurprising?

[AntiChrist]

made no impression? is unsurprising?

What photo are you referring to?

[Winehole23]

http://static1.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2209377.1430749388%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/prophet-cartoon-contest-shooting.jpg

[Winehole23]

NY Daily News/AP

[Winehole23]

"We condemn yesterday's attack on an anti-Islam event in Garland, Texas, without reservation.
"We also reiterate our view that violence in response to anti-Islam programs like the one in Garland is more insulting to our faith than any cartoon, however defamatory. Bigoted speech can never be an excuse for violence."

http://www.cair.com/press-center/press-releases/12950-cair-condemns-attack-on-anti-islam-event-in-texas.html

[Winehole23]

Geert Wilders's party loses its seat in the EU parliament:

1132760018951000065

[Winehole23]

https://europeelects.eu/2019/05/23/live-blog-2019-european-elections/

[Pavlov]

:lol all that because Darrin didn't want a mosque to be built in the hallowed ground of Burlington Coat Factory.

[Winehole23]

how's the Sharia Law trend progressing in the USA?

1701052086874526064

[Spurminator]

Never forget when this was the most important thing in the world to conservatives like OP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVz_US5n-pk

[Winehole23]

Saudi Arabia and the UAE suffered no adverse consequences in the GWOT, oddly.

1701290934925996096

[diego]

Saudi Arabia and the UAE suffered no adverse consequences in the GWOT, oddly.

1701290934925996096

On the contrary, they've gotten closer and closer to us military, buying up the latest military tech US has to offer

But hey if it makes you Americans feel better, here we're celebrating 50 years of our 9/11, when Nixon and Kissinger got the call from the president of Pepsi alerting them of the need to stop a socialist from getting elected president. They tried the usual, propaganda to control the election, sabotaged the economy and infrastructure, but he got elected anyway... so they kept up with the sabotage and started assassinating generals that were loyal, even blaming it on the imaginary communist forces running around.. that wasn't working either so finally had to go full coup d'etat.. aside from the customary summary executions you might expect in such a situation, here the operatives trained in Columbus, Georgia had flair- electroshock genital torture, rat helmets and rat rape too, why not, car bombs and poisoning in Argentina, Uruguay, Washington DC, what's a little American colateral, people burned to death, musicians put on stage and forced to perform with their finger cut off.. and here we are, thanking the united States for declassifying a little bit more information. No consequences for you here to worry about, thankfully Pgardn explained to me, what's important is there are declassified documents, Stalin and Genghis never had such courtesy!! :bobo

[Winehole23]

We fucked y'all good.

I know saying sorry is more or less worthless, but I do feel sorry for y'all on that account. And for my own country. Totally cynical and evil US geopolitics persists to this day.

[Thread]

We fucked y'all good.

I know saying sorry is more or less worthless, but I do feel sorry for y'all on that account. And for my own country. Totally cynical and evil US geopolitics persists to this day.

& Hussein will have to answer for murdering Bin Laden on pure spec. That will not remain unpunished.

[diego]

Thanks, not looking to blame anyone on this forum, all we can do at this point is remind everyone what happened here and as bitter as my post is, I really am thankful for those declassified documents... too bad the usual suspects are capable of ignoring even the most official evidence

[Thread]

Thanks, not looking to blame anyone on this forum, all we can do at this point is remind everyone what happened here and as bitter as my post is, I really am thankful for those declassified documents... too bad the usual suspects are capable of ignoring even the most official evidence

...Because America is a mirror image of Russia, could be even worse than Russia.