Joule patents fuel made from water, sunlight, CO2

[Winehole23]

Joule patents fuel made from water, sunlight, CO2
[/URL]



The mystery bug--a type of bacteria--behind intriguing biofuel start-up Joule Unlimited was revealed with the publication of a patent on Tuesday.
The Cambridge, Mass.-based start-up said that it has received Patent No. 7,794,969 (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20016330-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20#ixzz0zWelEMoK) for an engineered form of cynobacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria), or blue-green algae, which grows in water and is capable of secreting biodiesel fuel.



The company asserts that it can make diesel fuel directly using only sunlight and waste carbon dioxide in glass bioreactors (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20003503-54.html) for as little as $30 a barrel.
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim//2010/09/14/joule-final_610x385.jpg A diagram of how a Joule facility would work with bioreactors growing micro-organisms with sunlight and CO2 in water. A separator removes the end product--liquid fuel or chemicals.



Most biofuels processes take multiple steps to convert plant matter into sugars. Joule claims to be the first company to patent a single-step, continuous process that doesn't require a feedstock for fuel production. "Our vision since inception has been to overcome the limitations of biomass-based technologies, from feedstock costs and logistics to inefficient, energy-intensive processing," Joule CEO Bill Sims said in a statement.



According to its patent, Joule combines two enzymes with cyanobacteria to create an organism that can create hydrocarbons or chemicals. Other companies, such as LS9 and Amyris, also use genetically engineered microbes to make biofuels but they are designed to make sugars that can then be turned into fuels.



The company is now testing its system to make diesel and ethanol in Texas where sunlight and waste CO2 are fed into its bioreactors. The organisms grow, the fuel is harvested, and the organisms are then recirculated back into the growing solution. Its bioreactors control heat and light to optimize growth.



Joule plans to begin pilot production of diesel at the end of 2010 and open a commercial plant in 2012. Its pilot tests for ethanol production show it can be produced at a rate of 10,000 gallons per acre per year.
The patent awarded on Tuesday is the second the company has received, according to a company representative. The first one--No. 7,785,861 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,785,861.PN.&OS=PN/7,785,861&RS=PN/7,785,861)--covers aspects of an engineered photosynthetic micro-organism for fuel production, the company said. Issued on August 31, the first patent went through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's fast-track program for green technologies (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20014880-54.html).


Read more: [URL]http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20016330-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20#ixzz0zWeSFw1p

[Wild Cobra]

Now if this is feasible for large scale production, this is the type of renewable power and green energy we need.

I suspect there are drawbacks that will keep this from being a reality. the $30 per bbl of fuel probably only covers the nutrients and base product costs. It probable doesn't cover maintenance, construction costs over time, etc.

At least the fuel should be very clean burning.

[Parker2112]

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

[Wild Cobra]

I skimmed the patent. It appears to me that there is a long way to go before this becomes a reality.

[Parker2112]

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=60528105

[Parker2112]

I skimmed the patent. It appears to me that there is a long way to go before this becomes a reality.

why

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/
Yes, but these sales pitches are often not realistic.

Ever work for a company in research and development trying to raise money?

I have...

I'll believe this when it happens.

[boutons_deux]

"$30 per bbl"

When oilmen dubya and dickhead started their Reign of Error, oil was $25. They managed to enrich the oilcos and oil traders by pushing the price up by 300% when the left office.

http://www.oftwominds.com/photos07/oil83-07.png

Let's elect the Repugs back into power. They know how to manage the economy and start and run wars.

One of these pie-in-the-sky research projects will pay off. Actually, a whole bunch of them do, or oil and coal will never be replaced.

I expect the Repugs to unfund or underfund or block any govt money that could lead to replacing oil and coal.

[Wild Cobra]

"$30 per bbl"

When oilmen dubya and dickhead started their Reign of Error, oil was $25. They managed to enrich the oilcos and oil traders by pushing the price up by 300% when the left office.

http://www.oftwominds.com/photos07/oil83-07.png

Let's elect the Repugs back into power. They know how to manage the economy and start and run wars.

One of these pie-in-the-sky research projects will pay off. Actually, a whole bunch of them do, or oil and coal will never be replaced.

I expect the Repugs to unfund or underfund or block any govt money that could lead to replacing oil and coal.
Bouton's. I would love for this to be real. That $30/bbl is in essence, the refined product. Not light sweet crude oil prices. Now I'll bet this could be refined and broken down to lighter hydrocarbons like gasoline. If so, and if we could develope enough, we could lower gas prices to under $1.00 a gallon and tax then $1.00 a gallon, for $2.00 a gallon + profit at the pump.

This sure would help with revenue problems too.

[Parker2112]

"$30 per bbl"

When oilmen dubya and dickhead started their Reign of Error, oil was $25. They managed to enrich the oilcos and oil traders by pushing the price up by 300% when the left office.

http://www.oftwominds.com/photos07/oil83-07.png

Let's elect the Repugs back into power. They know how to manage the economy and start and run wars.

One of these pie-in-the-sky research projects will pay off. Actually, a whole bunch of them do, or oil and coal will never be replaced.

I expect the Repugs to unfund or underfund or block any govt money that could lead to replacing oil and coal.

So you are saying two men > global supply/demand?

[LnGrrrR]

While I'm inclined to agree with WC, even at a higher cost per barrel, say, 75$, you know alot of greenies would still buy in due to the much cleaner aspect. I hope this company can pull it off.

[Parker2112]

Yes, but these sales pitches are often not realistic.

Ever work for a company in research and development trying to raise money?

I have...

I'll believe this when it happens.

so you cant point to anything in the patent then?

[Wild Cobra]

so you cant point to anything in the patent then?
I'm not going to take the time. Besides, how many people here would understand the technical nature?

[Parker2112]

I'm not going to take the time. Besides, how many people here would understand the technical nature?

You acted like there were some questionable things in the patent. Just though it would be easy to point them out. even if you dont explain them.

[Drachen]

This would be an awesome stop gap measure. It would allow other technologies to develop at a slower pace, and best of all, it would be made HERE!

[Drachen]

The more I read about this, the more excited I get. Sequester the CO2 from coal plants = eco+ #1, it can use any type of water (yes even brackish) = eco+ #2. Burns cleaner than current incarnations = eco+ #3. There is just a lot right about this. I wonder if it will be a net CO2 producer, or consumer.

[coyotes_geek]

Interesting stuff. I hope there's something to this.

[Wild Cobra]

You acted like there were some questionable things in the patent. Just though it would be easy to point them out. even if you dont explain them.
No, not at all. It is very realistic. I question the efficiency, available production scale, and gross cost at the end of process. There is also a rather lengthy genetics listing at the end.

[Wild Cobra]

The more I read about this, the more excited I get. Sequester the CO2 from coal plants = eco+ #1, it can use any type of water (yes even brackish) = eco+ #2. Burns cleaner than current incarnations = eco+ #3. There is just a lot right about this. I wonder if it will be a net CO2 producer, or consumer.
I think it would produce more CO2's than fossil fuels because you're not only burning the made fuel, but the process releases CO2. Sequestering would likely be imposed on the process. How much will that add to the cost?

[Drachen]

I think it would produce more CO2's than fossil fuels because you're not only burning the made fuel, but the process releases CO2. Sequestering would likely be imposed on the process. How much will that add to the cost?

Why would the process release CO2? The process utilizes CO2 in the metabolizing process, and I would assume releases oxygen.

[boutons_deux]

Bouton's. I would love for this to be real. That $30/bbl is in essence, the refined product. Not light sweet crude oil prices. Now I'll bet this could be refined and broken down to lighter hydrocarbons like gasoline. If so, and if we could develope enough, we could lower gas prices to under $1.00 a gallon and tax then $1.00 a gallon, for $2.00 a gallon + profit at the pump.

This sure would help with revenue problems too.


Dear Spinmeister,

What's not real? It's the price history of benchmark light crude OIL (Brent?), not refined oil products like gasoline, etc.

[jack sommerset]

If this happens, that random guy is going to be pissed.

[Drachen]

If this happens, that random guy is going to be pissed.

Why?

[Wild Cobra]

Why would the process release CO2? The process utilizes CO2 in the metabolizing process, and I would assume releases oxygen.
I thought I read the process releases CO2. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not going to look again. Unimportant point for me.

[Wild Cobra]

Dear Spinmeister,

What's not real? It's the price history of benchmark light crude OIL (Brent?), not refined oil products like gasoline, etc.
Lets see...

At $80/bbl, gas is above $3.00 per gallon. What is a bbl? Isn't it 42 gallons? That means that $80 bbl is refined to >$126 of product and other products. $30 per bbl is less than $1.00 per gallon, and they are talking usable product.

I would love for this to be real, and not just hype to get investors to invest.

[Wild Cobra]

Why?

I'll bet it has to do with his philosophy of risk mitigation.

[Drachen]

I don't know, I have seen nothing that he has posted that leads me to believe that he would feel that way. I would be surprised if he felt differently than I do which is, if this is real, it is the Holy Grail of stop gap measures (until truely clean tech develops). I just read their website and it says that it would reduce total lifecycle CO2 by 90% (I am pretty sure that this is the way I read it, maybe go confirm).

[Wild Cobra]

I just read their website and it says that it would reduce total lifecycle CO2 by 90% (I am pretty sure that this is the way I read it, maybe go confirm).
That would actually make sense considering they are making fuel from CO2 to begin with.

I was probably wrong.

[coyotes_geek]

Why would the process release CO2? The process utilizes CO2 in the metabolizing process, and I would assume releases oxygen.

I don't think he was talking about the process to produce the biodiesel, but the process of that biodiesel getting run through a combustion engine. Burning biodiesel still produces CO2. So if you're looking at this from the "carbon nuetral" standpoint it appears there's still a question of whether the CO2 used to produce the biodiesel is equal to the CO2 that will be produced when that biodiesel is combusted. One would think that it would, but I haven't read up on it yet.

To me, the exciting opportunity here is from the standpoint of energy independence. If there's a CO2 benefit to it, all the better.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't know, I have seen nothing that he has posted that leads me to believe that he would feel that way.
If my assumptions of him are correct, he has lived much of his life worrying about risk mitigation of global warming and blaming it on AGW. It wouldn't surprise me if he invested accordingly, making such investments losing propositions.

I wonder what this would do to the Gore fortune, being so heavily invested in carbon credit trading?

[Wild Cobra]

I don't think he was talking about the process to produce the biodiesel, but the process of that biodiesel getting run through a combustion engine. Burning biodiesel still produces CO2.
No, I was thinking the process produced CO2 as well. I think I was wrong about that one.

So if you're looking at this from the "carbon nuetral" standpoint it appears there's still a question of whether the CO2 used to produce the biodiesel is equal to the CO2 that will be produced when that biodiesel is combusted. One would think that it would, but I haven't read up on it yet.
There is usually some inneficency involved. The 90% number Drachen posted sounds reasonable.

To me, the exciting opportunity here is from the standpoint of energy independence. If there's a CO2 benefit to it, all the better.
I agree. damn, I hope this becomes a reality, but I'm not betting on it yet.

[coyotes_geek]

No, I was thinking the process produced CO2 as well. I think I was wrong about that one.

Fair enough.

[Drachen]

the thing about this is that it would push those "truely clean" techs waaaaaaaaaay back, because with at 10% current carbon emissions, it would take an extremely long time for solar, wind, et al to become greener than that due to the waste produced making and recycling the batteries. Of course, this is just all in my head since I don't have any expertise on the tech of Joule's operations outside of 2 articles and its website. There could be something there that I don't know about. I will look out for an IPO though.

[Wild Cobra]

the thing about this is that it would push those "truely clean" techs waaaaaaaaaay back, because with at 10% current carbon emissions, it would take an extremely long time for solar, wind, et al to become greener than that due to the waste produced making and recycling the batteries. Of course, this is just all in my head since I don't have any expertise on the tech of Joule's operations outside of 2 articles and its website. There could be something there that I don't know about. I will look out for an IPO though.
All the lawmakers friends who invested in legislated green technologies would really be ticked.

I don't think the demonrats will let this happen.

[Drachen]

All the lawmakers friends who invested in legislated green technologies would really be ticked.

I don't think the demonrats will let this happen.

Its a small business, neither will the republicans. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

[Wild Cobra]

Its a small business, neither will the republicans. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.
I remember in the 70's, a guy patented a method to improve solar cell efficiency and make it from sand rather than crystalline silicone. He couldn't get any money to take it to market. Never learned why. Maybe it wasn't viable, maybe someone of power squashed it.

[MannyIsGod]

I thought I read the process releases CO2. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not going to look again. Unimportant point for me.

The fuck? How the fuck does anyone take this clown seriously? He's talking about people not understanding the technical details he can spout off and he doesn't understand how algae metabolize?

You're such an idiot. Maybe you should go back and reread the fundamentals of the process before declaring it won't work.

It could be 200% less efficient than advertised and still be far cheaper than oil.

[Drachen]

The fuck? How the fuck does anyone take this clown seriously? He's talking about people not understanding the technical details he can spout off and he doesn't understand how algae metabolize?

You're such an idiot. Maybe you should go back and reread the fundamentals of the process before declaring it won't work.

It could be 200% less efficient than advertised and still be far cheaper than oil.

OH oh oh, slow down, you are ok, no need to rush in with your pissed off meter stuck at 11. I already got him to admit he was wrong, you can actually slowly back away, gain some composure and comment on the actual OP itself.

[MannyIsGod]

OH oh oh, slow down, you are ok, no need to rush in with your pissed off meter stuck at 11. I already got him to admit he was wrong, you can actually slowly back away, gain some composure and comment on the actual OP itself.

And you can kiss my ass. I know you love to play the level headed poster but the rest of us read his bullshit on a regular basis and get tired of it. I don't give a shit how you want me to treat WC, but when he stops his repeated pattern of getting things wrong while acting as some sort of expert then my way of dealing with him may change.

There is a reason NO one gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore. Well except maybe you.

[Drachen]

And you can kiss my ass. I know you love to play the level headed poster but the rest of us read his bullshit on a regular basis and get tired of it. I don't give a shit how you want me to treat WC, but when he stops his repeated pattern of getting things wrong while acting as some sort of expert then my way of dealing with him may change.

There is a reason NO one gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore. Well except maybe you.

I read his posts every day too, but he already admitted he was wrong. What ends could you have possibly been working towards? Getting him to admit he was right? He is already pulled over, he can't pull over any farther. I am not asking you to change how you interact (it would be silly to ask you or many on this board (including myself) to change, talk about a losing proposition), but damn at least take it off of auto pilot every once in a while.

Also, I don't play anything. I am level headed. I am sorry if that offends you but at least my being able to think things through, provide a measured response, and ability to know when I don't have enough information or say when I am wrong is predictable. You don't have to be surprised by it, I am not surprised when you rush in and make all sorts of noise because you are angry. That seems to be your most predictable response. Its alright, I guess, if that is you how you are, then so be it.

[Wild Cobra]

Drachen, thanks, but Manny will never "man-up." May as well leave it alone. He thinks I'm so hard headed, and thought this was his opportunity to get me. Too bad he wasn't the first to notice my mistake. Even when Coyote gave me the benefit of doubt, I corrected him. I think this is totally alien to someone who has illusions of grandeur, thinking he's God.


I don't think he was talking about the process to produce the biodiesel, but the process of that biodiesel getting run through a combustion engine. Burning biodiesel still produces CO2.
No, I was thinking the process produced CO2 as well. I think I was wrong about that one.

[MannyIsGod]

I read his posts every day too, but he already admitted he was wrong. What ends could you have possibly been working towards? Getting him to admit he was right? He is already pulled over, he can't pull over any farther. I am not asking you to change how you interact (it would be silly to ask you or many on this board (including myself) to change, talk about a losing proposition), but damn at least take it off of auto pilot every once in a while.

Also, I don't play anything. I am level headed. I am sorry if that offends you but at least my being able to think things through, provide a measured response, and ability to know when I don't have enough information or say when I am wrong is predictable. You don't have to be surprised by it, I am not surprised when you rush in and make all sorts of noise because you are angry. That seems to be your most predictable response. Its alright, I guess, if that is you how you are, then so be it.

Why are you so butthurt over my response to WC? This is what I don't get. Autopilot? I give him what he has earned. How many people do you see engaging him? There is a reason for that.

Autopilot? You're pretty full of shit. If that was my response to everyone, you might have a case but as of right now you're just another douche bag claiming he doesn't want to change how anyone posts while bitching and asking them to change how they post.

[ElNono]

The chinese will probably produce this for 1/10 the cost to produce here. Then sell cheaper biodiesel so we can't compete with them. They already do a lot of that with wind turbines and solar panels.

Cool idea though...

[Winehole23]

@MIG:

Drachen isn't too far off suggesting your emotional palette in this forum is rather limited.

Morose, sarcastic and off the charts hostile pretty much sum it up. Like he says, it's mostly the latter. Your targets may indeed deserve it, but everyone else is entitled to make of it what they will.

[Wild Cobra]

The chinese will probably produce this for 1/10 the cost to produce here. Then sell cheaper biodiesel so we can't compete with them. They already do a lot of that with wind turbines and solar panels.

Cool idea though...
And here I thought I was the pessimist on this idea.

[Winehole23]

It ain't pretty, Manny. It makes you look like a crank.

[Wild Cobra]

It ain't pretty, Manny. It makes you look like a crank.
I'm just sitting back and laughing.

[MannyIsGod]

@MIG:

Drachen isn't too far off suggesting your emotional palette in this forum is rather limited.

Morose, sarcastic and off the charts hostile pretty much sum it up. Like he says, it's mostly the latter. Your targets may indeed deserve it, but everyone else is entitled to make of it what they will.

Of all people you, WH?

I'm fairly certain that during my time here I'ver more than my fair share of "quality" posts. If people coming by now read my rants and think I'm a crank, thats fine.

I'm extremely surprised to hear this coming from YOU, however. Your signal to noise ratio has practically dropped off a cliff as you've lost patience with the likes of Darrin and WC so for you to all of a sudden jump on the "Manny should post better" bandwagon is rather ironic. But I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I read your responses to Darrin.

[Winehole23]

You've lightened up some, WC, but you share the fault with Manny. You go right off the cliff, too.

[ElNono]

And here I thought I was the pessimist on this idea.

I don't have a problem with the idea, I think it's cool.

The problem is that under the mantra of 'maximizing profits for shareholders/investors' they're going to take up on the offer from the Chinese to manufacture this thing for 1/10 the price, while transferring the tech in the process.

Also, some people confuse how cheap the resulting product could be made vs how much they can sell it for. The bar is fossil fuels, so I expect them to price it as much or more, and try to gain the edge by pitching the 'clean' angle. People seems willing to pay this much for gas, so why sell it for less?

[Winehole23]

Of all people you, WH?

I'm fairly certain that during my time here I'ver more than my fair share of "quality" posts. If people coming by now read my rants and think I'm a crank, thats fine. Of late, more rants, far less quality. IMHO.


I'm extremely surprised to hear this coming from YOU, however. Your signal to noise ratio has practically dropped off a cliff as you've lost patience with the likes of Darrin and WC so for you to all of a sudden jump on the "Manny should post better" bandwagon is rather ironic. I don't think you need to change a thing. I'm fine with you being yourself. But if you do nothing all day but rail at idiots here, you can't really blame folks for tuning you out.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't have a problem with the idea, I think it's cool.

The problem is that under the mantra of 'maximizing profits for shareholders/investors' they're going to take up on the offer from the Chinese to manufacture this thing for 1/10 the price, while transferring the tech in the process.

Also, some people confuse how cheap the resulting product could be made vs how much they can sell it for. The bar is fossil fuels, so I expect them to price it as much or more, and try to gain the edge by pitching the 'clean' angle. People seems willing to pay this much for gas, so why sell it for less?
Do you think the Asian market can still sell it to us for less after shipping costs?

[Drachen]

Why are you so butthurt over my response to WC? This is what I don't get. Autopilot? I give him what he has earned. How many people do you see engaging him? There is a reason for that.

Autopilot? You're pretty full of shit. If that was my response to everyone, you might have a case but as of right now you're just another douche bag claiming he doesn't want to change how anyone posts while bitching and asking them to change how they post.

I am not butthurt, you told me to kiss your ass and got mad because I was level-headed. Oh, and everyone engages everyone here. Case in point: you engaged WC long enough to go all "loud noises" on him. Yes, I recognize that he does the same thing, case in point: he had to get his partisan jab in there at the end. In the same spirit, I did the same thing. Normally, it doesn't flow so well, yes even with WC, but in this case it did. Thus the "no reason to autopilot" comment.

[Wild Cobra]

I am not butthurt, you told me to kiss your ass and got mad because I was level-headed. Oh, and everyone engages everyone here. Case in point: you engaged WC long enough to go all "loud noises" on him. Yes, I recognize that he does the same thing, case in point: he had to get his partisan jab in there at the end. In the same spirit, I did the same thing. Normally, it doesn't flow so well, yes even with WC, but in this case it did. Thus the "no reason to autopilot" comment.
We all have our moods, and I'm sure most people realize I am level headed with most posters, but go off on others real easy. I see Manny as being the same way with me, as I am with Boutons, Calmbake, etc.

[Drachen]

Clambake isn't that bad. B_D is the end point on one side that is capped on the other by Jack Sommerset.

[MannyIsGod]

Of late, more rants, far less quality. IMHO.

The only difference between the quality of my posts lately and yours lately is that I drop more four letter words.



I don't think you need to change a thing. I'm fine with you being yourself. But if you do nothing all day but rail at idiots here, you can't really blame folks for tuning you out.

Tuning me out usually requires people not to reply to my posts. Doesn't seem like Drachen is doing a very good job of tuning me out if thats the case.

But in any event, I don't remember saying anyone should read my posts.

[ElNono]

Do you think the Asian market can still sell it to us for less after shipping costs?

They do with almost everything else, so why not? Unlike us, they have no problem setting artificial currency prices to create a fictitious ultra cheap market and obliterate competition.

Unless we get down to their standards (think $1/hour), you're not going to be able to compete.

On a positive side, what I really like about this thing is the potential for portable generation. It will be dependent on maintenance, and how the technology can be optimized, but basically this is solar power on steroids.

[Drachen]

They do with almost everything else, so why not? Unlike us, they have no problem setting artificial currency prices to create a fictitious ultra cheap market and obliterate competition.

Unless we get down to their standards (think $1/hour), you're not going to be able to compete.

On a positive side, what I really like about this thing is the potential for portable generation. It will be dependent on maintenance, and how the technology can be optimized, but basically this is solar power on steroids.

As far as the labor goes, the Chinese aren't going to enjoy their labor advantage for very long. They are organizing to demand higher wages/conditions, etc. I am not going to say that they won't be cheaper than us, but they may not be cheaper when including shipping.

As far as portability if this works, it will be great because I could see a system at home where it produces your diesel and the company makes money by providing servicing and the algae itself.

[Winehole23]

(went private)

[Wild Cobra]

They do with almost everything else, so why not? Unlike us, they have no problem setting artificial currency prices to create a fictitious ultra cheap market and obliterate competition.

I agree to a certain extent. They can only go so far with that.


Unless we get down to their standards (think $1/hour), you're not going to be able to compete.

It really depend on shipping costs. Shipping I believe is mostly by volume. large quantities of small items are impossible for us to compete with. However, fuel, at a production cost of $30 per bbl is $5.34 worth of fuel per cubic foot. What it breaks down to is how much it costs to ship from China to here. If the Chinese can make it at say $10 per bbl, then will it cost less than $3.56 per cubic foot to ship?

I bring up the shipping costs rather often. I guess I should take the time to know shipping costs.


On a positive side, what I really like about this thing is the potential for portable generation. It will be dependent on maintenance, and how the technology can be optimized, but basically this is solar power on steroids.
Wow...

That's another step that may take a long time to realize. Just how portable do you mean? Something that can be set up from a 18 Wheeler's trailer, or do you mean like on the roof of a car?

[ElNono]

As far as the labor goes, the Chinese aren't going to enjoy their labor advantage for very long. They are organizing to demand higher wages/conditions, etc. I am not going to say that they won't be cheaper than us, but they may not be cheaper when including shipping.

I'm willing to bet that they'll enjoy their labor advantage for as long as other countries decide to manufacture their shit there. It's a communist regime other there. They'll tell you what you can say and what you can't say. They'll tell you how many kids you can have. And people there will nod and comply or face prison/death.
The only pressure can be applied by the countries/companies doing business with them (IE: like Apple did a while ago). Then again, the vast majority of those companies would rather get their shit cheaper and look elsewhere than stand up for the workers.


As far as portability if this works, it will be great because I could see a system at home where it produces your diesel and the company makes money by providing servicing and the algae itself.

Right. The problem is that while diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, they're still pretty inefficient (around 30% conversion from fuel energy to mechanical energy).

The tech would also need to improve in order to reduce the footprint of the required area. According to what they say, they can produce 10,000 gallons of fuel per year per acre. That's about 27 gallons a day in 1 acre. If you scale it down to 10 square feet, you get 0.006 gallons (about 0.7 ounces) a day.

[ElNono]

Wow...

That's another step that may take a long time to realize. Just how portable do you mean? Something that can be set up from a 18 Wheeler's trailer, or do you mean like on the roof of a car?

Since diesel is not explosive, unlike gasoline, it can be safely stored, so that's a big plus. I'm thinking more of a portable 10x10 feet unit you could have in the roof of your house, and feed your car, provide heating and potentially a diesel generator. As I explained in my previous post, the tech would need to improve substantially when it comes to generation of power per square feet, but we're in the early ages of this, and it really has potential for a lot of things like that.

[Drachen]

I'm willing to bet that they'll enjoy their labor advantage for as long as other countries decide to manufacture their shit there. It's a communist regime other there. They'll tell you what you can say and what you can't say. They'll tell you how many kids you can have. And people there will nod and comply or face prison/death.
The only pressure can be applied by the countries/companies doing business with them (IE: like Apple did a while ago). Then again, the vast majority of those companies would rather get their shit cheaper and look elsewhere than stand up for the workers.



Right. The problem is that while diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, they're still pretty inefficient (around 30% conversion from fuel energy to mechanical energy).

The tech would also need to improve in order to reduce the footprint of the required area. According to what they say, they can produce 10,000 gallons of fuel per year per acre. That's about 27 gallons a day in 1 acre. If you scale it down to 10 square feet, you get 0.006 gallons (about 0.7 ounces) a day.

To the first point, obviously I don't live there, but from what I have been reading the low cost manufacturing title already (as of last year) belongs to India and it is swinging further in that direction.

As far as the 2nd point.... SUUUUURE if youre, like, gonna bring math into it, you could ruin my hopes and dreams. LOL

Just kidding. Anyway, are your diesel-efficiency numbers based on those super efficient diesels that we arent allowed to have which are sold in Europe? Or are they based on the ones we do have.

As far as the home based fuel generator, I mean to say that I could envision that in the future, since their numbers are currently 150,000 gallons of diesel per year per acre.

(I am a little sick, and so I am entering rambling mode, forgive me)

Also, I do have to point out that another major MAJOR advantage to this is very little infrastructure investment is necessary to implement this.

[Wild Cobra]

Since diesel is not explosive, unlike gasoline, it can be safely stored, so that's a big plus. I'm thinking more of a portable 10x10 feet unit you could have in the roof of your house, and feed your car, provide heating and potentially a diesel generator. As I explained in my previous post, the tech would need to improve substantially when it comes to generation of power per square feet, but we're in the early ages of this, and it really has potential for a lot of things like that.
Now that I could agree with and hope for. Nice thinking.

[Wild Cobra]

As far as the home based fuel generator, I mean to say that I could envision that in the future, since their numbers are currently 150,000 gallons of diesel per year per acre.

Their target is 15,000 gallons of diesel and 25,000 gallons of ethanol per acre year. They say they have proven 10,000 gallons of ethanol. the $30/bbl is based on the 15,000 gallon target, and they say "as low as."

joule: Why Joule/Overview (http://www.jouleunlimited.com/why-solar-fuel/overview)

Joule: News (http://www.jouleunlimited.com/news/2010/joule-awarded-patent-renewable-diesel-production-sunlight-and-co2)

Joule: About (http://www.jouleunlimited.com/about/overview)

[ElNono]

To the first point, obviously I don't live there, but from what I have been reading the low cost manufacturing title already (as of last year) belongs to India and it is swinging further in that direction.

Interesting. I'll have to read more about that.


As far as the 2nd point.... SUUUUURE if youre, like, gonna bring math into it, you could ruin my hopes and dreams. LOL

Just kidding. Anyway, are your diesel-efficiency numbers based on those super efficient diesels that we arent allowed to have which are sold in Europe? Or are they based on the ones we do have.


They're average peak efficiency of diesel engines in general. Combustion engines are generally pretty inefficient. Petrol engines do about 25% conversion rate on average. Basically, even at the peak of efficiency, you're not going to go more than 3% to 5% above the average.
Diesel has the upper hand because of the higher temperature and compression ratios, but compared to electric, they're still way inefficient.


As far as the home based fuel generator, I mean to say that I could envision that in the future, since their numbers are currently 150,000 gallons of diesel per year per acre.
(I am a little sick, and so I am entering rambling mode, forgive me)

That's a 15x increase from their test run in the OP. That's nice.
Ultimately you would need something closer to 100x on top of that 15x to be able to run a generator. It takes about 6 gallons a day to run a 6 kwh diesel generator. Obviously, generator tech could be improved over time, and also you don't need to run the house on generator power 24/7 either.


Also, I do have to point out that another major MAJOR advantage to this is very little infrastructure investment is necessary to implement this.

I'm more concerned with maintenance, honestly. They make it sound like it's a simple process without much upkeep, but I'm sure there's stuff they're going to be finding out about once they deploy it on a large scale.

[Wild Cobra]

I would go with the ethanol version and use a Direct Ethanol Fuel cell (http://www.fctec.com/fctec_types_dmfc.asp) rather than the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine.

Ooops...

Wrong link...

Give me time to find the right one.

[Wild Cobra]

How about this for now:

oLelfvPLEfM

[Wild Cobra]

I've been reading:

FUEL CELLS & HYDROGEN
J.M. Calo
Division of Engineering
Brown University
Providence, RI, USA (https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/download/attachments/9277/Fuel_Cells_Calo.pdf?version=1).

On page 60, they show relative volumes of fuel to watt hours. Hydrogen is 360 ml, liquid hydrogen 0.4 ml, methanol 0.2 ml, and ethanol 0.16 ml. If I did the math right, that's 6.25 kwh/liter. That brings us closer to realistically producing ethanol from a roof top. We would need 561 square feet to produce 2 liters a day. Still, if we account for solar angle, clouds, etc, we probably need to make it at least 1000 sq feet. That is still feasible for a roof top I think.

I believe your idea has merit if we use the fuel cell. In fact, it would be so much simpler not to use the IC. A fuel cell would require less separation since the fuel cell doesn't care if it's diluted with water. It would also have a wider load range with less waste.

[Parker2112]

you folks post some pics in my thread.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't have a problem with the idea, I think it's cool.

The problem is that under the mantra of 'maximizing profits for shareholders/investors' they're going to take up on the offer from the Chinese to manufacture this thing for 1/10 the price, while transferring the tech in the process.

I'm not so sure. China's manufacturing advantage is in the cheap labor and from what (little) I've read about this process it doesn't appear to be very labor intensive. It's more refining/process related and most of that type of manufacturing has stayed here in the U.S. If there's not a lot of labor involved, the savings in labor costs are more likely to be eaten up by transport costs.



Also, some people confuse how cheap the resulting product could be made vs how much they can sell it for. The bar is fossil fuels, so I expect them to price it as much or more, and try to gain the edge by pitching the 'clean' angle. People seems willing to pay this much for gas, so why sell it for less?

The prices between the two would certainly be tied together, but I'd think they would be looking to stay just under the price of fossils. The "clean" angle alone has proven to come nowhere close to triggering a mass shift away from fossils. The "cheaper" angle is the only one that can do that on a widespread scale.

[boutons_deux]

U.S. Navy buys 20,000 gallons of algae fuel


http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20016516-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[ElNono]

I'm not so sure. China's manufacturing advantage is in the cheap labor and from what (little) I've read about this process it doesn't appear to be very labor intensive. It's more refining/process related and most of that type of manufacturing has stayed here in the U.S. If there's not a lot of labor involved, the savings in labor costs are more likely to be eaten up by transport costs.

You look at those panels, and it takes a whole lot of them to fill an acre. If this thing turns out to be as good as it's been advertised then there's going to be a huge demand to manufacture those things. That's where China shines. The bacteria could be kept in-country, but once they get a sample, there shouldn't be much problem to replicate it.


The prices between the two would certainly be tied together, but I'd think they would be looking to stay just under the price of fossils. The "clean" angle alone has proven to come nowhere close to triggering a mass shift away from fossils. The "cheaper" angle is the only one that can do that on a widespread scale.

Part of the reason it hasn't is because it doesn't really fit into our current infrastructure. Hydrogen or Electric are efficient and clean, but we don't have the infrastructure yet and the vast majority of the vehicles can't take advantage of it. This thing would fit right into our infrastructure and there's plenty of Diesel engines out there. You could price aggressively initially to gain market share, but eventually they'll price as high as they can. The days of gas for under $1 a gallon are long gone, IMO.

[LnGrrrR]

How about this for now:

oLelfvPLEfM

That guy looks like Dr. Marvin Candle from Lost... where's the Smoke Monster?

[coyotes_geek]

You look at those panels, and it takes a whole lot of them to fill an acre. If this thing turns out to be as good as it's been advertised then there's going to be a huge demand to manufacture those things. That's where China shines. The bacteria could be kept in-country, but once they get a sample, there shouldn't be much problem to replicate it.



Part of the reason it hasn't is because it doesn't really fit into our current infrastructure. Hydrogen or Electric are efficient and clean, but we don't have the infrastructure yet and the vast majority of the vehicles can't take advantage of it. This thing would fit right into our infrastructure and there's plenty of Diesel engines out there. You could price aggressively initially to gain market share, but eventually they'll price as high as they can. The days of gas for under $1 a gallon are long gone, IMO.

Good points on both counts.