The Times, the Mosque and Islam -- No Moral Nuance

[DarrinS]

http://www.dennisprager.com/columns.aspx?g=ebf5ac1e-affd-4f58-a5da-6097439da5d2&url=the_times,_the_mosque_and_islam_--_no_moral_nuance




One of the most common self-assessments of the left is that conservatives rarely see nuances in moral questions, while liberals always do.

That this is a false conceit can be demonstrated with regard to almost any position held by the left. There is no nuance in liberal positions on abortion, race-based affirmative action, capital punishment, embryonic stem cell research or just about any other social issue.

Two such issues are the current Cordoba House Islamic center controversy and Americans' perceptions of Islam.

To liberals commenting on these issues, all that needs to be said are two things: First, Islam is a religion of peace and even the most sophisticated questioning of that claim is an expression of nativism, bigotry, xenophobia and Islamophobia. Second, the Muslim imam in New York City has a right to build his $100-million Islamic center two blocks from the spot where thousands of Americans were incinerated by 19 Muslims in the name of Islam. That no conservative spokesman has challenged the imam's right to build the center, only the rightness of the act, is ignored whenever The New York Times, for example, discusses the issue.

The truth is that the Right's views of Muslims, the Cordoba House, and Islam are considerably more nuanced than those of the Left.

Remember -- we are comparing elite with elite, not the elite left with dregs like the Gainesville "pastor" of a "50-member church" who planned an "International Quran Burning Day" and who was universally dismissed on the right as a publicity seeking jackass.

The elite right -- the leading conservative columnists, editorial pages and vast majority of major talk-show hosts -- readily and regularly distinguish between jihadists and their American Muslim neighbor across the street.

But the left rarely distinguishes between bigoted haters and Americans who have questions about contemporary Islam and oppose the building of a $100 million Islamic center two blocks from ground zero.

This past Sunday, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof offered another example of left-wing nuance-free attacks on Americans who have any moral reservations about the world of Islam today.

Kristof began his column with an attack on the "venomous and debased discourse about Islam" in America.

He gives one example: New Republic publisher Martin Peretz, a rather thoughtful lifelong liberal, who actually had the temerity to raise moral concerns about Islam in a recent article. Peretz asked, for example, "Is not western society, imperfect as it may be ... immensely more liberal than the domains of Islam?"

And this: "This intense epidemic of (Islamic) slaughter has been going on for nearly a decade and a half...without protest, without anything. And it has been going for decades and centuries before that."

Kristof ignores every issue raised by Peretz and quotes one sentence to cite Peretz's article as an example of the "venomous and debased the discourse about Islam" permeating America. To The New York Times and the rest of the left, the question here is not whether what Peretz wrote is true -- because when it comes to the right, the left is concerned with finding bigotry, not truth.

"Nativists are back on the warpath," Kristof went on to write.

Question: Can Kristof name any opponents of the Cordoba center or anyone else who vocalizes any questions about the moral state of the contemporary Muslim world whom he does not consider a nativist or bigot?

Kristof: "In America, bigoted comments about Islam often seem to come from people who have never visited a mosque and know few if any Muslims."

Question: Would Kristof agree that those on the left who declare that "Islam is a religion of peace" and who claim to see no moral differences between the contemporary Muslim world and the contemporary Christian, Jewish and Buddhist worlds, also have "never visited a mosque and know few if any Muslims?"

Kristof: "In their ignorance, they mirror the anti-Semitism that I hear in Muslim countries from people who have never met a Jew."

That is about as non-nuanced, as unsophisticated a statement as one can make on this is or any issue. In many Muslim countries, the media are saturated with "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" type Jew-hatred, with popular TV shows depicting Jews as killing Muslim children for their blood, and calls for extermination of the Jewish state. Nowhere in America is there anything regarding Muslims remotely analogous to the anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.

Another lack of nuance:

Kristof: "One American university professor wrote to me that 'every Muslim in the world' believes that the proposed Manhattan Islamic center would symbolize triumph over America. That reminded me of Pakistanis who used to tell me that 'every Jew' knew of 9/11 in advance, so that none died in the World Trade Center."

Here is the (nuanced) truth: Vast numbers of Muslims believe that Jews stayed away from the World Trade Center on 9/11. That is a lie -- not one Jew on earth knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. But it is not a lie that there are millions of Muslims who believe that a giant Islamic center and mosque near ground zero would be a sign of Muslim victory.

The same day Kristof's simplistic view of the mosque issue was published, AOL News reported on a demonstration against the mosque. It quoted a man named Ron Silverados, identified as "a 57-year-old road striper from Long Island:" "I'm tired of saying this but this isn't a religious issue ... it is a moral issue."

There was more moral nuance in the road striper's comment than in all the liberal columns and editorials of The New York Times.

If the left were primarily concerned with bigotry, it would be preoccupied with the most bigoted places on earth -- many Islamic nations. But in general, the left hates the right more than it hates bigotry. And that leads to a world devoid of moral nuance.

[clambake]

dennis prager lol

[DarrinS]

dennis prager lol


What's wrong with him?

[clambake]

whats the matter, couldn't you find something from boortz?

[ElNono]

What's wrong with him?

Wasn't this the guy that wanted to force the first Muslim elected to Congress to take an oath on the Bible?

[fraga]

Oh for fucks sake...there was a Mosque INSIDE the world trade center...there's a Mosque INSIDE the Pentagon...there are strip clubs near and around this oh so sacred area...get over it already...

[jack sommerset]

No

[MannyIsGod]

Oh for fucks sake...there was a Mosque INSIDE the world trade center...there's a Mosque INSIDE the Pentagon...there are strip clubs near and around this oh so sacred area...get over it already...

[Spurminator]

http://www.fashion-stylist.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/image/count-von-count-sesame-street.jpg

EIGHT! Ah ah ah! EIGHT threads about Islam started by DarrinS this month!

[Wild Cobra]

Did any of you naysayer idiots actually comprehend what he said?

[ChumpDumper]

The elite right -- the leading conservative columnists, editorial pages and vast majority of major talk-show hosts -- readily and regularly distinguish between jihadists and their American Muslim neighbor across the street.No, they don't.

No need to read further.

[DMX7]

Amazing incoherent piece by Prager. I almost feel sorry for him.

[DMX7]

Oh look at me though, I'm in my Ivory tower.

[LnGrrrR]

Yeesh, this guy uses as many false generalizations as you DarrinS.



To liberals commenting on these issues, all that needs to be said are two things: First, Islam is a religion of peace and even the most sophisticated questioning of that claim is an expression of nativism, bigotry, xenophobia and Islamophobia.


Where's this sophisticated questioning?


The elite right -- the leading conservative columnists, editorial pages and vast majority of major talk-show hosts -- readily and regularly distinguish between jihadists and their American Muslim neighbor across the street.



Oh yes, it takes alot of nuance to say, "I'm not saying all Muslims are jihadists."



But the left rarely distinguishes between bigoted haters and Americans who have questions about contemporary Islam and oppose the building of a $100 million Islamic center two blocks from ground zero.


What questions do these Americans have about contemporary Islam? Why do they oppose the building?



Here is the (nuanced) truth: Vast numbers of Muslims believe that Jews stayed away from the World Trade Center on 9/11. That is a lie -- not one Jew on earth knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. But it is not a lie that there are millions of Muslims who believe that a giant Islamic center and mosque near ground zero would be a sign of Muslim victory.


Here is the unnuanced truth: this guy is a big pussy. Oh, and he's also engaging in the Pascal's Wager fallacy. "If we build the mosque, they might claim victory! Therefore, we'll play on the safe side and not build it." As if they couldn't possibly use THAT for propaganda. Moron.



If the left were primarily concerned with bigotry, it would be preoccupied with the most bigoted places on earth -- many Islamic nations. But in general, the left hates the right more than it hates bigotry. And that leads to a world devoid of moral nuance.


And by preoccupied, Prager obviously means bombing the shit out of these nations.

[Blake]

Did any of you naysayer idiots actually comprehend what he said?

Please help me comprehend this line:


That no conservative spokesman has challenged the imam's right to build the center, only the rightness of the act, is ignored whenever The New York Times, for example, discusses the issue.

Why is the act of building this community center wrong if they have the right to do so?

[DarrinS]

Every single lib response reinforces Prager's column.

If you, in any way, oppose the Ground Zero Mosqepalooza, you are an Islamophobic biggot.

It's black and white. No gray -- no nuance.


Anyone check the latest cover of Time?

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/time-america-islamophobic.jpg


Nuance

[Spurminator]

If you create 8 threads about it in two weeks, you are Islamophobic.

It's pretty pathetic to lecture about nuance while you continue to lump all Muslims together into some shared accountability for terrorist attacks.

Fuck your nuance. You're a bigot.

[LnGrrrR]

Every single lib response reinforces Prager's column.

If you, in any way, oppose the Ground Zero Mosqepalooza, you are an Islamophobic biggot.

It's black and white. No gray -- no nuance.

You're free to provide an argument to prove otherwise.

Do you have a principled opposition to espouse DarrinS? Or are you just going to go with the "It's too big! Why should Muslims be able to pray there, when they can pray just four blocks away?!? Did you realize that the 9/11 terrorists were Muslims?"

If that's all you have, well, forgive me for calling it like I see it. If you have a valid reason why it should be moved, one based off rationality, by all means share it.

[Blake]

You're free to provide an argument to prove otherwise.

Do you have a principled opposition to espouse DarrinS? Or are you just going to go with the "It's too big! Why should Muslims be able to pray there, when they can pray just four blocks away?!? Did you realize that the 9/11 terrorists were Muslims?"

If that's all you have, well, forgive me for calling it like I see it. If you have a valid reason why it should be moved, one based off rationality, by all means share it.

pretty much.

[Wild Cobra]

Why is the act of building this community center wrong if they have the right to do so?
This has been repeated over and over. Sorry you don't understand. It should be obvious and not need explanation.

It is acknowledged that they have every legal right to build there in this free nation. However, they shouldn't because of the perceived smugness of the plan. To build as close to the site as possible. with all the public opposition to the plan, they are ignoring others feeling.

I fail to understand how liberals miss this. their whole political correctness, and many laws based on race and gender are based on how the victim perceives an action. The action itself is re-classed by perception rather than fact.

Why is it OK for liberals to have these nuances, but not conservatives?

[MannyIsGod]

this has been repeated over and over. Sorry you don't understand. It should be obvious and not need explanation.

It is acknowledged that they have every legal right to build there in this free nation. However, they shouldn't because of the perceived smugness of the plan. To build as close to the site as possible. With all the public opposition to the plan, they are ignoring others feeling.

I fail to understand how liberals miss this. Their whole political correctness, and many laws based on race and gender are based on how the victim perceives an action. the action itself is re-classed by perception rather than fact.

Why is it ok for liberals to have these nuances, but not conservatives?

lol

[boutons_deux]

"America's Islamaphobia" is the standard, election-season rabble rousing by VRWC, Fox, the hate-media megaphones. The rabble love nothing more than having their hate and fear stoked by their string pullers.

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin is claiming nuance on this issue?

:lmao

[Winehole23]

For me, Prager doesn't even have to be a racist. It's more than enough that he's a fucking nutball.

[Winehole23]

Darrin clearly claimed no nuance in the banner and mostly delivered, I thought.

[Winehole23]

Posting preachy harangues by Dutch crypto-fascists like Geert Wilders is fully stinky. By comparison, Dennis Prager is little more than a fart stifled furtively in the davenport (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/davenport).

[Winehole23]

And DarrinS is the connoisseur of it.

[ChumpDumper]

There is nuance in the dozens of different ways DarrinS has expressed his Islamophobia, I'll give him that.

[Winehole23]

Seems like more of a blunt instrument to me.

[DMX7]

Yeah, there isn't much nuance in DarrinS' Islamophobia here. He's making it quite obvious.

[ChumpDumper]

Different shades of Islamophobia. I'm sticking with the characterization.

[DarrinS]

For me, Prager doesn't even have to be a racist. It's more than enough that he's a fucking nutball.


Alinsky's rules for radicals

Rule 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's nice to know that the dead enders on this board finally acknowledge that there are nuances when dealing with complex issues. That is a positive start on the road to an intellectual recovery....

[boutons_deux]

"is a positive start"

that's going nowhere. Islamophobia is false outrage fabricated by VRWC

[DarrinS]

It's nice to know that the dead enders on this board finally acknowledge that there are nuances when dealing with complex issues. That is a positive start on the road to an intellectual recovery....


When 70% of Americans oppose the mosque, the only logical conclusion is that 70% of Americans are Islamophobic. Nuance.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2010/1101100830_400.jpg

[George Gervin's Afro]

When 70% of Americans oppose the mosque, the only logical conclusion is that 70% of Americans are Islamophobic. Nuance.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2010/1101100830_400.jpg

If 70% of Americans were against a mosque then yes they would be Islamophobic.

Now let's not play stupid Darrins and acknowledge that the poll results can easily be manipulated by the simple wording of a question...

Another thought, why are you so obssesed with polls darrins? Do you want the country governed based on daily polling data?

[Blake]

This has been repeated over and over. Sorry you don't understand. It should be obvious and not need explanation.

One would think.


It is acknowledged that they have every legal right to build there in this free nation. However, they shouldn't because of the perceived smugness of the plan. To build as close to the site as possible. with all the public opposition to the plan, they are ignoring others feeling.

how do these "others" feel about Islam?


I fail to understand how liberals miss this. their whole political correctness, and many laws based on race and gender are based on how the victim perceives an action. The action itself is re-classed by perception rather than fact.

Why is it OK for liberals to have these nuances, but not conservatives?

So you are against them building it because of someone else's perception of victory.

[Blake]

When 70% of Americans oppose the mosque, the only logical conclusion is that 70% of Americans are Islamophobic. Nuance.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2010/1101100830_400.jpg

Feel free to share your thoughts on what opposers are if they aren't Islamophobic.

[George Gervin's Afro]

One would think.



how do these "others" feel about Islam?



So you are against them building it because of someone else's perception of victory.

No darrins and his ilk are concerned that " the mosque could be a ..." lots of coulda's in their argument..typically when your argument contains 'coulda' it is extremely week...


I would also to know if the dead enders are going to consider personal feelings when dealing with other legislative matters..

[ElNono]

Anyone check the latest cover of Time?

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/time-america-islamophobic.jpg


So how would you answer the question in that cover?

[boutons_deux]

Hey, Saddam "coulda" had WMD, so let's invade. Iraqis "could" love us.

[MannyIsGod]

Its not whether Islamaphobia is part of America today (it is - it has been - its really understandable if not acceptable) but its how Islamaphobia in America today is at higher levels than it was right after 9/11.

Now thats some shit. Nothing like rabble rousing to gain people power.

[DarrinS]

Its not whether Islamaphobia is part of America today (it is - it has been - its really understandable if not acceptable) but its how Islamaphobia in America today is at higher levels than it was right after 9/11.

Now thats some shit. Nothing like rabble rousing to gain people power.


Interview of an ordinary Muslim at an ordinary mosque in Killen, TX.

AIrmBT9FgkQ

[clambake]

why don't you protest in killen, darrin?

[Blake]

Interview of an ordinary Muslim at an ordinary mosque in Killen, TX.

AIrmBT9FgkQ

That's not an ordinary Muslim.

"I will not speak for the Muslim community."

"He is in the minority."

:td

[clambake]

he's close enough to reach darrin.

[Blake]

why don't you protest in killen, darrin?

I'm sure he's afraid of ordinary Muslims going on Killeen, TX sprees.

[clambake]

I'm sure he's afraid of ordinary Muslims going on Killeen, TX sprees.

this is the perfect opportunity for darrin to put up or shut up.

any predictions?

[Blake]

this is the perfect opportunity for darrin to put up or shut up.

any predictions?

more youtube

[TeyshaBlue]

When 70% of Americans oppose the mosque, the only logical conclusion is that 70% of Americans are Islamophobic. Nuance.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2010/1101100830_400.jpg

lol at Darrin conflating polls and logic.

[Spurminator]

this is the perfect opportunity for darrin to put up or shut up.

any predictions?

I predict another redirection in photo or Youtube form.

It's like he has everyone on ignore or something.

[clambake]

a sure sign that he wants his government to take care of him.

[ChumpDumper]

Interview of an ordinary Muslim at an ordinary mosque in Killen, TX.

AIrmBT9FgkQI didn't watch it, but it's safe to assume this man makes you afraid of all Muslims.

Boo!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Interview of an ordinary Muslim at an ordinary mosque in Killen, TX.

AIrmBT9FgkQ

how do you know he is an 'ordinary' muslim? what's ordinary?

[Winehole23]

Alinsky's rules for radicals

Rule 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."It wasn't meant as ridicule but as objective description. Dennis Prager is emotionally unbalanced and a fucking nutball.

[ChumpDumper]

Really Darrin, you've been given every opportunity to give us a reason you oppose the mosque that isn't Islamophobic.

You have failed to do so.

In fact all you have done is give us nuanced examples your Islamophobia -- but it is still all Islamophobia.

[ChumpDumper]

Alinsky's rules for radicals

Rule 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."
Well, when you start working here at FreedomWorks, the first book you read is Saul Alinsky's Rules For Radicals.

[Wild Cobra]

So you are against them building it because of someone else's perception of victory.
I've decided I don't care if it's built or not. I'm simply tired of the liberal hypocrisy.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I've decided I don't care if it's built or not. I'm simply tired of the liberal hypocrisy.

what hypocrisy?

[Wild Cobra]

So how would you answer the question in that cover?
It's perceived as an "in our face" insult.

[Wild Cobra]

what hypocrisy?
You still don't understand the nuances the article speaks of, do you.

[ChumpDumper]

It's perceived as an "in our face" insult.So you wouldn't answer the question and try to change the subject like a pussy.

[LnGrrrR]

When 70% of Americans oppose the mosque, the only logical conclusion is that 70% of Americans are Islamophobic. Nuance.


Still waiting on your rational argument that the mosque should move. Got one yet?

[LnGrrrR]

You still don't understand the nuances the article speaks of, do you.

Everyone here understands it WC, we're blasting the author because he a) builds a strawmen that all liberals think all Muslims are peaceful, which is obviously not the case and b) provides a non-sequitur by trying to say that if he can prove some Muslims are violent, then that gives justification to move the mosque.

[DarrinS]

It wasn't meant as ridicule but as objective description. Dennis Prager is emotionally unbalanced and a fucking nutball.

lol @ "objective description"

You're are a fucking idiot.

[DarrinS]

Everyone here understands it WC, we're blasting the author because he a) builds a strawmen that all liberals think all Muslims are peaceful, which is obviously not the case and b) provides a non-sequitur by trying to say that if he can prove some Muslims are violent, then that gives justification to move the mosque.



No, that's not it at all, actually.

[ChumpDumper]

No, that's not it at all, actually.Why do you oppose the mosque?

[DarrinS]

Why do you oppose the mosque?

Size and proximity to GZ. Already said it a million times.

[ChumpDumper]

Size and proximity to GZ. Already said it a million times.Then why do you post all these Islamophobic diatribes?

And why do the size and proximity bother you so?

[Blake]

I've decided I don't care if it's built or not. I'm simply tired of the liberal hypocrisy.

So you support those who are against the building of the community center.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Size and proximity to GZ. Already said it a million times.

Or is it, muslims brought down the WTCs therefore there shouldn't be a muslim place of worship so close?

[Blake]

Size and proximity to GZ. Already said it a million times.

What was the official size and distance that reportedly makes the fear go away?

[ChumpDumper]

Or is it, muslims brought down the WTCs therefore there shouldn't be a muslim place of worship so close?Right.

Islamophobia.

[DarrinS]

What was the official size and distance that reportedly makes the fear go away?

It's not about fear. It's about respect.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not about fear. It's about respect.Respect of what?

Why do you demand Muslims have a higher degree of respect than others?

[Blake]

It's perceived as an "in our face" insult.

What tangible victory are "they" laying claim too?

If anything, the "victory" for "them" is that we are rising up against this Islamic community center because we are afraid of them.

[Blake]

It's not about fear. It's about respect.

So opposers have a lack of respect for other religions. Got it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I agree that not everyone that opposes the mosque is Islamophobic. The crux of the matter here is that Islamophobic dirt bags hide behind them. There's a simple way to root the Islamophobic ignorant from the rest... ask him why?

If he answers like DarrinS, Yoni or Jack, you've pretty much got one.

[Winehole23]

You're are a fucking idiot.Prager is a jackpot of begged questions and logical fallacies like yourself. If saying so makes me an idiot in your eyes, that's a badge I'll wear with pride.

[LnGrrrR]

Size and proximity to GZ. Already said it a million times.

Would you care to explain why? Is it because you find it offensive? Sorry, but that's not enough of a reason to move something. I'm sure you can figure out why.

Could you even explain what a "reasonable" proximity and size would be?

[LnGrrrR]

It's not about fear. It's about respect.

You're aware some Muslims died on 9/11 too, right?

Remember, respect works both ways.

[Blake]

I agree that not everyone that opposes the mosque is Islamophobic.

I'm fine with that if you can please let me in on how they justify their opposition.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'm fine with that if you can please let me in on how they justify their opposition.

Well, I'm sure there are some people still mourning for relatives lost that oppose it out of grief rather than fear. I think its pretty close minded and partisan to argue against that possibility.

[Wild Cobra]

No, that's not it at all, actually.
Thanx.

For a moment, I thought I missed a nuance.

[Wild Cobra]

So you support those who are against the building of the community center.
I only support their right to feel and speak their mind. I would only agree with them if it could be shown that the Community center with a Mosque is intentionally placed at that location for some sinister reason.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, I'm sure there are some people still mourning for relatives lost that oppose it out of grief rather than fear. I think its pretty close minded and partisan to argue against that possibility.

Agreed, but then you're just shifting the irrationality. Saying "I support 9/11 families who don't agree with this" just means you're supporting a 9/11 family that's irrational.

[LnGrrrR]

DarrinS wouldn't know nuance if it delicately slapped him upside the head.

[Winehole23]

Agreed, but then you're just shifting the irrationality. Saying "I support 9/11 families who don't agree with this" just means you're supporting a 9/11 family that's irrational.There is the question of compassion for grieving people, but one should be wary of washing one's supposedly clean linen in public. It's never as clean as it appears at first glace.

[clambake]

I would only agree with them if it could be shown that the Community center with a Mosque is intentionally placed at that location for some sinister reason.

this has boy scout written all over it.

[LnGrrrR]

There is the question of compassion for grieving people, but one should be wary of washing one's supposedly clean linen in public. It's never as clean as it appears at first glace.

Eh, I don't much buy into the belief of "compassion for grieving people" when the beliefs the grievance is founded on make no logical sense.

I do find it amazing that, 9 years later, the words of 9/11 families are held as gospel, while the people who suffered through Katrina are considered by most to be thieves and criminals who were too stupid to leave New Orleans/Misssippi.

[DarrinS]

2QsCdnwx6q8

[DarrinS]

I do find it amazing that, 9 years later, the words of 9/11 families are held as gospel, while the people who suffered through Katrina are considered by most to be thieves and criminals who were too stupid to leave New Orleans/Misssippi.


Did you just equate 9/11 with a natural disaster?

[clambake]

2QsCdnwx6q8

dennis prager lol

back where you started.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Agreed, but then you're just shifting the irrationality. Saying "I support 9/11 families who don't agree with this" just means you're supporting a 9/11 family that's irrational.

I never said their claim was rational. I said it wasn't Islamophobia.

[DarrinS]

dennis prager lol

back where you started.


I see you didn't have time to watch it. You're very open-minded.

[LnGrrrR]

Did you just equate 9/11 with a natural disaster?

I equated the suffering of two kinds of people. But I guess you didn't understand that nuance.

[Wild Cobra]

Did you just equate 9/11 with a natural disaster?
Yes he did, and I have a hard time he did just that. He is usually far more reasonable than that.

LnGrrrR..... What's your mindset today? You have a fever above 104 by chance?

[clambake]

I see you didn't have time to watch it. You're very open-minded.

i wouldn't watch his execution, either.

[DarrinS]

i wouldn't watch his execution, either.

Dude?

[ChumpDumper]

I see you didn't have time to watch it. You're very open-minded.How many hours of YouTube have you posted on this board and expected everyone at work to watch like you watch YouTubes at work?

[LnGrrrR]

Yes he did, and I have a hard time he did just that. He is usually far more reasonable than that.

LnGrrrR..... What's your mindset today? You have a fever above 104 by chance?

What makes the suffering of 9/11 victims more "worthy" than Katrina victims, by chance? we listen to the words of the 9/11 families, and based on their words, some people think we should move the mosque, merely to placate these families. As if, because they said it, we should immediately respect their wishes and move it, disregarding the feelings of others.

But Katrina victims, on the other hand, seem to be cast in a much more negative light. Instead of listening to their suffering, they are often dismissed. I've heard people casually state that people who still live in FEMA trailers need to find a job, that the state of Lousiana has had plenty of money come their way, etc etc, that plenty of time has passed for them to "get over it", as it were. I doubt these same people actually witness the destruction firsthand, either right afterwards or even years later.

[Blake]

I never said their claim was rational. I said it wasn't Islamophobia.

what is it?

[DarrinS]

How did Katrina even get brought into the conversation?

[clambake]

How did Katrina even get brought into the conversation?

they have something in common. both warnings weren't taken seriously.

[Wild Cobra]

What makes the suffering of 9/11 victims more "worthy" than Katrina victims, by chance? we listen to the words of the 9/11 families, and based on their words, some people think we should move the mosque, merely to placate these families. As if, because they said it, we should immediately respect their wishes and move it, disregarding the feelings of others.

But Katrina victims, on the other hand, seem to be cast in a much more negative light. Instead of listening to their suffering, they are often dismissed. I've heard people casually state that people who still live in FEMA trailers need to find a job, that the state of Lousiana has had plenty of money come their way, etc etc, that plenty of time has passed for them to "get over it", as it were. I doubt these same people actually witness the destruction firsthand, either right afterwards or even years later.
Look. I don't want to rehash this here. I will limit this to a couple key points. Start a new thread if you want more from me than i offer in this one and only post on the topic in this thread.

People who live in the flood plains of New Orleans should be prepared for these things. Yes, we all feel for them, but they were not victims of someone elses actions. Not anywhere near those working in buildings, as noncombatants, and targeted by radicals. There is simple no comparison. To try to compare these two tragedies I think is ridiculous.

[ChumpDumper]

Um, the WTC had been attacked before.

Did you miss that?

[Winehole23]

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Poor butthurt mosque critics sure can dish it out, but when someone else criticizes them, they call it suppression.

lol

[LnGrrrR]

How did Katrina even get brought into the conversation?

I brought it up.

Maybe you should try reading with more nuance.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, I'm sure there are some people still mourning for relatives lost that oppose it out of grief rather than fear. I think its pretty close minded and partisan to argue against that possibility.

Only if they oppose everything being built in that area is this plausible. Or at least any religous buildings whatsoever. If theyve singled out islam for any reason then it is islamophobia.

[LnGrrrR]

People who live in the flood plains of New Orleans should be prepared for these things. Yes, we all feel for them, but they were not victims of someone elses actions. Not anywhere near those working in buildings, as noncombatants, and targeted by radicals. There is simple no comparison. To try to compare these two tragedies I think is ridiculous.

Why does it make a difference whether or not the suffering was inflicted by a third party, or by a natural disaster?

The argument is that the mosque should move because it would cause undue suffering to 9/11 families, right? Not enough respect or something?

Just saying, I see alot less care for the opinions of Katrina victims.

[Wild Cobra]

Look. I don't want to rehash this here. I will limit this to a couple key points. Start a new thread if you want more from me than i offer in this one and only post on the topic in this thread.

[Blake]

Well, I'm sure there are some people still mourning for relatives lost that oppose it out of grief rather than fear. I think its pretty close minded and partisan to argue against that possibility.

So they grieve and find it insensitive every time a new building is constructed with the two block radius of Ground Zero?'

I could see that only I haven't seen that yet.

[Blake]

I only support their right to feel and speak their mind.

They absolutely should have the right to feel and speak their Islamophobic minds.


I would only agree with them if it could be shown that the Community center with a Mosque is intentionally placed at that location for some sinister reason.

Me too.

Since they can't show it, why are they opposing it?

[clambake]

looks like bin laden is still laughing and winning.

[Blake]

looks like bin laden is still laughing and winning.

no kidding.

Thanks a lot Bin Laden.

[Wild Cobra]

Since they can't show it, why are they opposing it?
Emotions.

[Blake]

Emotions.

Yes, I would agree fear is an emotion.

[clambake]

Emotions.

don't they realize that bin laden planted those emotions? don't they realize they're throwing him a parade?

[Wild Cobra]

don't they realize that bin laden planted those emotions? don't they realize they're throwing him a parade?
In a way, I agree with you for once. farther proof that the terrorism continues to prevail.

[LnGrrrR]

In a way, I agree with you for once. farther proof that the terrorism continues to prevail.

Bingo.

[Wild Cobra]

Bingo.
Yes, it prevails as long as we have willing shitheads.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, it prevails as long as we have willing shitheads.Shitheads willing to express their Islamophobia at every opportunity.

[DarrinS]

Shitheads willing to express their Islamophobia at every opportunity.


Libs have more Christianophobia (oh, wait, no such word). That's why they are shitheads.

[ChumpDumper]

Libs have more Christianophobia (oh, wait, no such word). That's why they are shitheads.Which church's construction are they actively opposing?

The ground zero cathedral?

Please explain fully without a YouTube.

[Blake]

Libs have more Christianophobia (oh, wait, no such word). That's why they are shitheads.

I don't know any lib afraid of any YMCA.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Libs have more Christianophobia (oh, wait, no such word). That's why they are shitheads.

why even bring Christianity into this discussion? unless you think its an either or proposition, in which case congrats on making everyone's point for them...

[ChumpDumper]

why even bring Christianity into this discussion?He's quite desperate to change the subject from his Islamophobia.

[MannyIsGod]

Libs have more Christianophobia (oh, wait, no such word). That's why they are shitheads.

LOL

Yeah, you know I was just about to go protest the location of another church. Damn Christianphobia!

[ChumpDumper]

He sure ran away quickly after that post.

[Blake]

He sure ran away quickly after that post.

possibly scrounging up a youtube

[MaNuMaNiAc]

He sure ran away quickly after that post.

He'll be back to avoid answering questions in no time

[ElNono]

It's probably about time to divert the conversation into some other YouTube...