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View Full Version : F-22 shmef-22, we have propellers.



RandomGuy
09-21-2010, 04:18 PM
Zoinks. Maybe it is time to dust off the designs for the old WW2 fighter planes?

Certainly seems a f*** of a lot more cost effective than wasting $500,000,000 planes on jackasses with Ak-47s.

At some point the old A-10s will need to be replaced, and this was a bit of an eye-opener of an article. I would ask, "why not"?--RG

Air power on the cheap
Small, slow and inexpensive propeller-driven planes are starting to displace fighter jets
Sep 20th 2010

JET fighters may be sexy in a Tom Cruise-ish sort of way, but for guerilla warefare—in which the enemy rarely has an air force of his own with which to dogfight—they are often not the tool for the job. Pilotless drones can help fill the gap. Sometimes there is no substitute for having a pilot on the scene, however, so modern air forces are starting to turn to a technology from the yesteryear of flying: the turboprop.

So-called light-attack turboprops are cheap both to build and to fly. A fighter jet can cost $80m. By contrast the 208B Caravan, a light-attack turboprop made by Cessna, costs barely $2m. It also costs as little as $500 a hour to run when it is in the air, compared with $10,000 or more for a fighter jet. And, unlike jets, turboprops can use roads and fields for takeoff and landing.
Nor is it only jets that light-attack turboprops can outperform. Armed drones have drawbacks, too. The Reaper, made by General Atomics, can cost $10m or more, depending on its bells and whistles. On top of that, a single drone can require a team of more than 20 people on the ground to support it, plus satellite communications. A manned turboprop can bomb an insurgent for a third of the cost of using a drone, according to Pat Sullivan, the head of government sales at Cessna. And there are strategic considerations, too. Many countries’ armed forces rely on allies such as America for the expertise and satellite networks needed to run drones. Such allies can let you down in a pinch. Piloted light-attack planes offer complete operational independence—and, being lower-tech than many drones, are less subject to restrictions on exports in the first place.

They are also better, in many ways, than helicopters. To land a chopper safely in the dirt requires sophisticated laser scanners to detect obstacles hidden by dust thrown up by the downdraught of the rotors. On top of this, such dust makes helicopter maintenance even more difficult than it is already. Maintaining turboprops, by contrast, is easy. According to Robyn Read, an air-power strategist at the Air Force Research Institute near Montgomery, Alabama, they can be “flown and maintained by plumbers”. Thrush Aircraft, a firm based in Albany, Georgia, is even more expansive. It claims that the Vigilante, an armed version of its cropdusting plane that costs $1m, can be disassembled in the field with little more than a pocket screwdriver.

Turboprops are also hard to shoot down. Air Tractor, another firm that makes cropdusters, branched out into warplanes last year. One reason was that a fleet of 16 unarmed versions of its aircraft had been used by America’s State Department to dust South American drug plantations with herbicide—an activity that tends to provoke a hostile response from the ground. Despite the planes’ having been hit by more than 200 rounds, though, neither an aircraft nor a pilot has been lost.

In part, this is because of the robust mechanics of turboprops and in part because Air Tractor’s fuel tanks have rubber membranes which close around bullet holes to slow leaks. Add extra fuel tanks, which let the plane stay aloft for ten hours, six 225kg precision-guided bombs and more than 2,000kg of missiles, rockets and ammunition for two 50-calibre machineguns, and you have the AT-802U, a formidable yet reasonably cheap (at $5m) warplane.

Light-attack aircraft also now sport much of the electronics used by fighter jets. The MX-15, an imaging device made by L-3 WESCAM, a Canadian company, allows a pilot to read a vehicle’s license plate from a distance of 10km. It is carried by both the AT-802U and the AT-6, a top-of-the-range light-attack plane made by Hawker Beechcraft.

Not surprisingly, then, many countries with small defence budgets are investing in turboprops. Places that now fly them, or are expected to do so, include Brazil, Chile, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Indonesia, Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco and Venezuela. And the United States. For the biggest military establishment in the world, too, recognises the value of this new old technology. The American air force plans to buy more than 100 turboprops and the navy is now evaluating the Super Tucano, made by Embraer, a Brazilian firm.

In aerial combat, then, low tech may be the new high tech. And there is one other advantage that the turboprop has over the jet, at least according to Mr Read—who flew turboprops on combat missions in Cambodia during the 1970s. It is that you can use a loudspeaker to talk to potential targets before deciding whether to attack them. As Winston Churchill so memorably put it: “When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.”

http://www.economist.com/node/17079443

Drachen
09-21-2010, 04:27 PM
Efficient use of resources??? REVOLUTIONARY!

Sportcamper
09-21-2010, 04:28 PM
All that & no photos of the prop planes?

CosmicCowboy
09-21-2010, 04:32 PM
All that & no photos of the prop planes?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/AT-802U_3.jpg

4>0rings
09-21-2010, 04:43 PM
^^^ That cost 5 million? It's a damn POS with 50 cals and some bombs strapped to it. What's that movie Mel Gibson was in and he was shot down with a peasant shooting a .22 at it? That's what that looks like.

phxspurfan
09-21-2010, 04:52 PM
That's a cool idea...sounds like something they can train local forces to fly and maintain (i.e. Iraq, etc). And supply them much cheaper of course.

xellos88330
09-21-2010, 05:13 PM
To use this aircraft in a close support role, (it seems that this is what they are wanting to use it for) I do not think it is a good idea.

The speed of turbo prop will prevent them from getting to the target location on time. They would need to establish a forward air base, which WILL be targeted by guerilla fighters, and would need to have the manpower to defend such a location. You would also need to resupply said airbase with parts, equipment, ammunition and all that kind of thing which leads to the need of convoys to get them those necessities. As we all have figured out, convoys love to get attacked by guerillas. The speed of this aircraft will also effect it as far as the amount of maintenance required for it. It will get hit, and hit A LOT. The article said 1 mission, 200 rounds worth of damage. How much are the parts to replace the damaged ones?

Strategically I think this is a terrible idea.

The Reckoning
09-21-2010, 05:21 PM
titanium bathtubs ftw

phxspurfan
09-21-2010, 05:28 PM
To use this aircraft in a close support role, (it seems that this is what they are wanting to use it for) I do not think it is a good idea.

The speed of turbo prop will prevent them from getting to the target location on time. They would need to establish a forward air base, which WILL be targeted by guerilla fighters, and would need to have the manpower to defend such a location. You would also need to resupply said airbase with parts, equipment, ammunition and all that kind of thing which leads to the need of convoys to get them those necessities. As we all have figured out, convoys love to get attacked by guerillas. The speed of this aircraft will also effect it as far as the amount of maintenance required for it. It will get hit, and hit A LOT. The article said 1 mission, 200 rounds worth of damage. How much are the parts to replace the damaged ones?

Strategically I think this is a terrible idea.

I don't think it's perfect for a conventional war like you're talking about. But for a war against drug lords and such, I think it's great.

xellos88330
09-21-2010, 05:36 PM
I don't think it's perfect for a conventional war like you're talking about. But for a war against drug lords and such, I think it's great.

If they aren't being used to support anything and are just straight up strike aircraft, then it could potentially work depending on the range of the aircraft. IMO the only safe place to launch this kind of aircraft is from the sea against drug cartels. I am certain that someone would notice a prop plane being loaded with bombs at some random airfield.

Gotta give it to them though. I love me some prop planes, but in certain roles, it would be doomed to fail.

phxspurfan
09-21-2010, 06:41 PM
If they aren't being used to support anything and are just straight up strike aircraft, then it could potentially work depending on the range of the aircraft. IMO the only safe place to launch this kind of aircraft is from the sea against drug cartels. I am certain that someone would notice a prop plane being loaded with bombs at some random airfield.

Gotta give it to them though. I love me some prop planes, but in certain roles, it would be doomed to fail.

I agree that somebody would probably notice them being loaded up, since we would be operating the planes out of the drug lords' home countries most likely. But few missions in war are without risk, and for the price, the opportunity for success is good I'd say. I hope our defense budget benefits from many of these decisions since we are always mettling with other countries' business.

4>0rings
09-21-2010, 07:49 PM
P-38 lightning dropping bombs on towel heads/drug factories would be epic.

LnGrrrR
09-21-2010, 08:08 PM
Eh, sounds like a propaganda piece by people selling the prop planes. :) To qualify our jets, especially the F-22, as just a fighter jet is somewhat misleading. The F-22 has strong electronic warfare capabilities as well, which I'm guessing these prop planes can't replicate. As well, the F-22 has the ability to share video feeds with ground forces.

And, of course, it's a jet. Meaning it can go alot faster than a prop plane.

If you're saying "the criteria for fighter planes is to bomb stuff cheaply", yes, turboprops may outperform a jet. But that's not all that our jets are used for so it's a bit disingenuous.

byrontx
09-21-2010, 09:11 PM
P-38 lightning dropping bombs on towel heads/drug factories would be epic.

I gotta go along with this.

Sounds like the mission profile of the V-22, though.

xellos88330
09-21-2010, 09:27 PM
If anything, bring back the Skyraider. Not some random commercial aircraft fitted with bombs.

CosmicCowboy
09-21-2010, 09:59 PM
If anything, bring back the Skyraider. Not some random commercial aircraft fitted with bombs.

No shit. That was a bad fucking boy. The ultimate prop fighter/ground attack platform.

RandomGuy
09-22-2010, 07:22 AM
To use this aircraft in a close support role, (it seems that this is what they are wanting to use it for) I do not think it is a good idea.

The speed of turbo prop will prevent them from getting to the target location on time. They would need to establish a forward air base, which WILL be targeted by guerilla fighters, and would need to have the manpower to defend such a location. You would also need to resupply said airbase with parts, equipment, ammunition and all that kind of thing which leads to the need of convoys to get them those necessities. As we all have figured out, convoys love to get attacked by guerillas. The speed of this aircraft will also effect it as far as the amount of maintenance required for it. It will get hit, and hit A LOT. The article said 1 mission, 200 rounds worth of damage. How much are the parts to replace the damaged ones?

Strategically I think this is a terrible idea.

All of your points are already most addressed by the article.

Speed: about as fast as a helicopter used for the same types of roles
forward bases: already done, would not add to logistical burden. if you are talking about an AIRbase, then you have some ready-made methods of supplying them in the form of cargo planes.
cost of operation from damages: $500 per hour of operation versus $10,000 per hour for a comparable jet. for the difference $9,500, you could afford to repair the damage and probably still have money left over.

Add to the fact that these craft are much more simpler mechanically, your average truck mechanic could maintain one without too much training, and you save a lot in personnel costs, which make up no small amount of what it would take for a jet.

You can keep air superiority fighters for air superiority, but against organizations without air forces, what good is a supersonic stealth fighter?

We spent $800+ billion on our armed forces last year, and no small part of that was for hugely complicated weapons systems, and R & D.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070903020.html


The United States' top fighter jet, the Lockheed Martin F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000, a far higher figure than for the warplane it replaces, confidential Pentagon test results show.

I'm not saying we need to scrap jets entirely. There will always be a need for them.

BUT
It has become rather obvious that our defense spending habits have led to some bloated excesses, and some much more cost effective alternatives have begun to emerge.

RandomGuy
09-22-2010, 07:29 AM
If anything, bring back the Skyraider. Not some random commercial aircraft fitted with bombs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider

I would agree. A proven design that has already been tested, would be preferable.

Potential drawback: Design is existant, but the machinery used to make it is long gone. One would have to retool and build capacity to in order to build the planes again.

The random commercial aircraft has also been tested and offers "off the shelf" capability.

I do agree with you that it would be worth looking into rebuilding a few of the older designs. With advances in materials technology and so forth, we might even be able to improve on them.

RandomGuy
09-22-2010, 07:30 AM
No shit. That was a bad fucking boy. The ultimate prop fighter/ground attack platform.



The Skyraider had a remarkably long and successful career and inspired a straight-winged, slow-flying, jet-powered successor, the A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider

boutons_deux
09-22-2010, 08:27 AM
the MIC would block any attempts by anybody to touch their $Bs in rip-off profits.

The Pentagon worried about saving money or bang for the buck? :lol GMAFB