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balli
09-23-2010, 11:00 AM
When President Obama unveiled an array of new tax-cut and spending proposals last week, one word was noticeably missing from his speeches: “stimulus.” Republicans, meanwhile, energetically set about decrying the plan as “more of the same failed ‘stimulus’ ” and as simply a “second stimulus”—as if the word itself were a damning indictment. The idea of using countercyclical fiscal policy to help get a weak economy moving is hardly radical. But in Washington stimulus has become the policy that dare not speak its name.

This wouldn’t be surprising if we were talking about a failed program. But, by any reasonable measure, the $800-billion stimulus package that Congress passed in the winter of 2009 was a clear, if limited, success. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that it reduced unemployment by somewhere between 0.8 and 1.7 per cent in recent months. Economists at various Wall Street houses suggest that it boosted G.D.P. by more than two per cent. And a recent study by Mark Zandi and Alan Blinder, economists from, respectively, Moody’s and Princeton, argues that, in the absence of the stimulus, unemployment would have risen above eleven per cent and that G.D.P. would have been almost half a trillion dollars lower. The weight of the evidence suggests that fiscal policy softened the impact of the recession, boosting demand, creating jobs, and helping the economy start growing again. What’s more, it did so without any of the negative effects that deficit spending can entail: interest rates remain at remarkably low levels, and government borrowing didn’t crowd out private investment.

Politically, however, none of this has made any difference. Polls show that a sizable majority of voters think that the stimulus either did nothing to help or actively hurt the economy, and most people say that they’re opposed to a new stimulus plan. The hostility has numerous sources. Many voters conflate the stimulus bill with the highly unpopular bailouts of the banking sector and the auto industry; Republicans have done a good job of encouraging such misconceptions, as when Representative Mike Pence, of Indiana, referred to the “bailout stimulus.” Also, the stimulus—which, to begin with, was too small to completely offset the economy’s precipitous drop in demand—was oversold. The Administration’s forecasts about the recession (particularly regarding job losses) were too optimistic, and so its promises about what the stimulus would accomplish set the public up for disappointment.

But the most interesting aspect of the stimulus’s image problems concern its design and implementation. Paradoxically, the very things that made the stimulus more effective economically may have made it less popular politically. For instance, because research has shown that lump-sum tax refunds get hoarded rather than spent, the government decided not to give individuals their tax cuts all at once, instead refunding a little on each paycheck. The tactic was successful at increasing consumer demand, but it had a big political cost: many voters never noticed that they were getting a tax cut. Similarly, a key part of the stimulus was the billions of dollars that went to state governments. This was crucial in helping the states avoid layoffs and spending cuts, but politically it didn’t get much notice, because it was the dog that didn’t bark—saving jobs just isn’t as conspicuous as creating them. Extending unemployment benefits was also an excellent use of stimulus funds, since that money tends to get spent immediately. But unless you were unemployed this wasn’t something you’d pay attention to.

The stimulus was also backloaded, so that only a third was spent in the first year. This reduced waste, since there was more time to vet projects, and insured that money would keep flowing into 2010, lessening the risk of a double-dip recession. But it also made the stimulus less potent in 2009, when the economy was in dire straits, leaving voters with the impression that the plan wasn’t working. More subtly, while the plan may end up having a transformative impact on things like the clean-energy industry, broadband access, and the national power grid, it’s hard for voters to find concrete visual evidence of what the stimulus has done (those occasional road signs telling us our tax dollars are at work notwithstanding). That’s a sharp contrast with the New Deal legacy of new highways, massive dams, and rural electrification. Dramatic, high-profile deeds have a profound effect on people’s opinions, so, in the absence of another Hoover Dam or Golden Gate Bridge, it’s not surprising that the voter’s view is: “We spent $800 billion and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.”

Bizarre as it may seem, a less well-designed stimulus might have been more popular, and that would have made it easier for Obama to sell the electorate on his new stimulus proposals. But, given the scope and depth of the recession, it’s also likely that any stimulus would have become a political albatross. As Jonathan Baron—a professor at the University of Pennsylvania who studies the role of psychology in public policy—has discussed, if you take action and things go wrong, you’re often held more responsible than if you do nothing, even when the failure to act would lead to a disastrous outcome. Of course, Presidents are always blamed or rewarded for the state of the economy. But, in pushing through the stimulus plan, the Administration tied itself to the fate of the economy more tightly than if it had done nothing. It’s a harsh lesson: when Rome is burning, trying to put out the fire may cost you more than just sitting by and fiddling.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2010/09/20/100920ta_talk_surowiecki

RandomGuy
09-23-2010, 11:26 AM
The Republicans have done a masterful job of spinning the stimulus into something that didn't work, despite some pretty fair evidence to the contrary, as noted in the OP.

I find it a bit sad at how crassly political a lot of conservative propaganda is.

Rather than deal with any topic pragmatically and fairly, everything is subordinated to the overall narrative, and we all lose, because we can't consider alternatives without ideologically tinted glasses.

That is as evident here as anywhere else. A brief look through of the first few pages of this board shows that fairly readily.

DarrinS
09-23-2010, 11:34 AM
All of Obama's policies are been wonderfully successful and saved America from complete and utter destruction.


Oh, and conservatives are evil.

balli
09-23-2010, 11:56 AM
All of Obama's policies are been wonderfully successful and saved America from complete and utter destruction.


Oh, and conservatives are evil.

Pieces of excrement who can't understand anything but propaganda distilled into youtubes, shouldn't even try. This thread was made to bemoan your brand of idiocy; your comments are not necessary. You are the specimen, not the scientist.

MannyIsGod
09-23-2010, 12:00 PM
All of Obama's policies are been wonderfully successful and saved America from complete and utter destruction.


Oh, and conservatives are evil.

Textbook Darrinbot with the exception of the youtube.

MannyIsGod
09-23-2010, 12:04 PM
The Republicans have done a masterful job of spinning the stimulus into something that didn't work, despite some pretty fair evidence to the contrary, as noted in the OP.

I find it a bit sad at how crassly political a lot of conservative propaganda is.

Rather than deal with any topic pragmatically and fairly, everything is subordinated to the overall narrative, and we all lose, because we can't consider alternatives without ideologically tinted glasses.

That is as evident here as anywhere else. A brief look through of the first few pages of this board shows that fairly readily.


There should not even be a debate over whether it worked or not because it most certainly did and virtually all the economic data I have seen says as much.

But Obama made the biggest mistake in an effort to pass it of saying we would not hit an arbitrary unemployment mark. He said that was the high water mark and we would not hit it. The fact that we passed it but still prevented worse is not of interest to political operatives taking advantages of sound bytes.

The debate should be whether or not it was worth it in the long term. That is a legitimate debate even though I feel my view is a favorable one. But having that debate does the GOP no political favors.

Its about elections, not governing. We might as well call our system electionment.

boutons_deux
09-23-2010, 12:15 PM
I find it a bit sad at how crassly political a lot of conservative propaganda is.



why be nice? are Repugs/conservatives nice to you?

conservative propaganda is euphemistic, it's fucking lies, all lies, all the time.

VRWC is a master as creating bullshit "perceptions", detached from all reality, aimed at the lowest common denominator, which in America, is damn low, like tea bagger/bubba/Real America/red-state/JayWalking/Miss South Carolina low.

CosmicCowboy
09-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Uhhh guys, do you watch the dollar? The policies being pursued by the administration and the fed have caused the dollar to go completely to shit. Only central bank intervention by exporting nations like Japan have kept if from hitting all time lows relative to the yen and euro and gold is at an all time high.

boutons_deux
09-23-2010, 12:26 PM
The low dollar helps exports, just like the Chinese keep their currency low artificially to boost exports.

Where's the problem?

China is screwing the world and sucking the blood out of other industrial economies, but has so much power now there's nothing to be done about it.

CosmicCowboy
09-23-2010, 12:50 PM
The low dollar helps exports, just like the Chinese keep their currency low artificially to boost exports.

Where's the problem?

China is screwing the world and sucking the blood out of other industrial economies, but has so much power now there's nothing to be done about it.

The problem is that our economy/cost of living is now addicted to imports. Shitting on the dollar is like a hidden tax when your dollars don't buy as much as they used to.

George Gervin's Afro
09-23-2010, 12:51 PM
Since this article can't be summed up in a 30 second sound bite there is no way to communicate to the masses.

DarrinS
09-23-2010, 12:53 PM
The November elections and 2012 will tell you all you need to know about how successful libtard policies have been.

balli
09-23-2010, 12:58 PM
The November elections and 2012 will tell you all you need to know about how successful libtard policies have been.

There is nobody as dumb as you. The OP's thesis is that the electorate (i.e. you, teabagger) is too stupid and manipulated to make sound decisions based on the facts at hand. I'd like to think you're trolling, but your disconnect from reality is so consistently authentic that I don't even know what to think.

George Gervin's Afro
09-23-2010, 12:59 PM
There is nobody as dumb as you. The OP's thesis is that the electorate (i.e. you, teabagger) is too stupid and manipulated to make sound decisions based on the facts at hand. I'd like to think you're trolling, but your disconnect from reality is so consistently authentic that I don't even know what to think.

it's a shame that you have to explain that the article is about him.

balli
09-23-2010, 01:00 PM
it's a shame that you have to explain that the article is about him.

twice.

CosmicCowboy
09-23-2010, 01:00 PM
The November elections and 2012 will tell you all you need to know about how successful libtard policies have been.

I honestly don't see that the elections are gonna make that much difference. I'm hearing the same tired old shit in the new "Pledge to America".

DarrinS
09-23-2010, 01:00 PM
There is nobody as dumb as you. The OP's thesis is that the electorate (i.e. you, teabagger) is too stupid and manipulated to make sound decisions based on the facts at hand. I'd like to think you're trolling, but your disconnect from reality is so consistently authentic that I don't even know what to think.


I'm not a "teabagger" and the electorate is made up of more than conservatives.

But, it is the tendency of liberals these days to insult their critics. Not only are they dumb, but they are a bunch of biggots and racists. How's that workin for the Dems?

George Gervin's Afro
09-23-2010, 01:02 PM
I'm not a "teabagger" and the electorate is made up of more than conservatives.

But, it is the tendency of liberals these days to insult their critics. Not only are they dumb, but they are a bunch of biggots and racists. How's that workin for the Dems?

you are dumb and it has nothing to do with you being a critic.

balli
09-23-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm not a "teabagger" and the electorate is made up of more than conservatives.

But, it is the tendency of liberals these days to insult their critics. Not only are they dumb, but they are a bunch of biggots and racists. How's that workin for the Dems?

You are a dumbass. Nobody in this thread called you a bigot or racist and the thread has nothing to do with either of those issues. If you don't want to self apply the teabagger label, fine, but fortunately reality overrules your stupid conceptions as you suck testicles every day when you post five youtubes created by the teabagger blogosphere. Not only are you dumb, you are very dumb.

ChumpDumper
09-23-2010, 01:33 PM
He's more of a teabaggee.

101A
09-23-2010, 01:52 PM
Republicans are bad intentioned, evil, anti-American, pro-Satan liars and cheats.

Democrats are paragons of virtue, truth, justice and the American Way.

Got it.

TeyshaBlue
09-23-2010, 01:55 PM
The stimulus was also backloaded, so that only a third was spent in the first year. This reduced waste, since there was more time to vet projects, and insured that money would keep flowing into 2010, lessening the risk of a double-dip recession. But it also made the stimulus less potent in 2009, when the economy was in dire straits, leaving voters with the impression that the plan wasn’t working. More subtly, while the plan may end up having a transformative impact on things like the clean-energy industry, broadband access, and the national power grid, it’s hard for voters to find concrete visual evidence of what the stimulus has done (those occasional road signs telling us our tax dollars are at work notwithstanding). That’s a sharp contrast with the New Deal legacy of new highways, massive dams, and rural electrification. Dramatic, high-profile deeds have a profound effect on people’s opinions, so, in the absence of another Hoover Dam or Golden Gate Bridge, it’s not surprising that the voter’s view is: “We spent $800 billion and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.”

I think that is the crux of the perception issue. There's still plenty around that witnessed the CCC. Hell, you can still see the CCC stamp on alot of public buildings and structures. I was in Christoval not to long ago and saw the CCC logo on one of the levees off the South Concho River. With the stimulus, there's several layers of officialdom to pass thru that weren't around in the CCC days. I don't know if the data reflects success or failure yet. I like alot of what the CBO produces along the lines of analysis, but I have found their projections lacking from time to time. They do a nice job of couching their projections, but we rarely are treated to the disclaimers. How completely Republican of the OP. :lol

I think there's merit in the debate as to it's effectiveness, but I don't understand how it's necessity can be questioned. Was it the right thing? We'll see. Probably. Was it necessary to respond like this? Absolutely.

balli
09-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Republicans are bad intentioned, evil,
The column went as far as to suggest bad intention. There has been bad intention. Extrapolating that into evilness is something the author left up to you.


anti-American
Actually, I think the documented idiocy of the right, is distinctly American.


pro-Satan
The column didn't mention anything or draw any comparison betweens republicans and satan.


liars
Well, when someone calls the sky yellow, there's really only one word for that.


and cheats.
Again, nothing was said on this matter. Although it's almost certainly true. Hypocrites would be better though.


Democrats are misunderstood and maligned due to manipulative and purposeful misinformation from the right.
fify.

Got it?

TeyshaBlue
09-23-2010, 02:19 PM
The column went as far as to suggest bad intention. There has been bad intention. Extrapolating that into evilness is something the author left up to you.


Actually, I think the documented idiocy of the right, is distinctly American.


The column didn't mention anything or draw any comparison betweens republicans and satan.


Well, when someone calls the sky yellow, there's really only one word for that.


Again, nothing was said on this matter. Although it's almost certainly true. Hypocrites would be better though.


fify.

Got it?


Thanks, Balli! We needed that!

Love,
The Daily KOS.
:lol

boutons_deux
09-23-2010, 02:34 PM
Republicans are bad intentioned, evil, anti-American, pro-Satan liars and cheats.

Democrats are paragons of virtue, truth, justice and the American Way.

Got it.

No, you doan goddit

the first part is true (but badly insufficient), and 2nd part is false.

LnGrrrR
09-23-2010, 03:07 PM
But, it is the tendency of liberals these days to insult their critics. Not only are they dumb, but they are a bunch of biggots and racists. How's that workin for the Dems?


The November elections and 2012 will tell you all you need to know about how successful libtard policies have been.

balli
09-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Thanks, Balli! We needed that!

Love,
The Daily KOS.
:lol

eh, one knee-jerk over simplification deserves another.

TeyshaBlue
09-23-2010, 03:31 PM
eh, one knee-jerk over simplification deserves another.

:lol Sorry, dude. You just teed it up for me.:toast