What can Americans make?

[Supergirl]

The American economy has plummeted in part because Americans don't make anything any more. What can Americans make again; what can we export around the world and show off American skill again?

[DarrinS]

We can make anything. The problem is, our fellow Americans enjoy a standard of living that can't be sustained by factory labor wages. So, they unionize and then wonder why they can't compete with the Chinese.

[panic giraffe]

i don't think its so much that we don't make, its that we don't make our own anymore, we buy cheaper and choose quantity over quality.

[George Gervin's Afro]

We can make anything. The problem is, our fellow Americans enjoy a standard of living that can't be sustained by factory labor wages. So, they unionize and then wonder why they can't compete with the Chinese.

or companies move offshore to pay workers a dollar a day to make stuff...

[Winehole23]

12-13% of the whole labor force is the whole problem, and most of them work for the government. Oversimplify much, Darrin?

[DarrinS]

or companies move offshore to pay workers a dollar a day to make stuff...

Duh!

Next time you make a call on your iPhone, you can thank some Chinese kid who, hopefully, hasn't committed suicide. Luckily, they installed suicide nets at Foxconn. There's no App for that.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Duh!

Next time you make a call on your iPhone, you can thank some Chinese kid who, hopefully, hasn't committed suicide. Luckily, they installed suicide nets at Foxconn. There's no App for that.

so you are wrong again!!!!! :lmao

So are american factory workers supposed to work for a dollar a day dumbass?:lmao

[DarrinS]

Americans can make Happy Meals.

[DarrinS]

so you are wrong again!!!!! :lmao

So are american factory workers supposed to work for a dollar a day dumbass?:lmao


Why does liberal, Steve Jobs, have his iPhones made in China? Because he hates America? No.

[panic giraffe]

so i guess my question is, would you pay another 100 for that iphone just to know it was made in america?

[DarrinS]

so i guess my question is, would you pay another 100 for that iphone just to know it was made in america?


There is really only one goal of a business.

Can anyone tell me what that goal is?

[MannyIsGod]

Back in the 90s, Americans were sold that our future production was going to be based on producing ideas and innovation. We didn't need to produce knick knacks like China because we were above that. The problem is we don't run our education system as though that is the case.

Sometimes the truth simply boils down to that you can't stay on top forever. All systems move toward an equilibrium.

[MannyIsGod]

There is really only one goal of a business.

Can anyone tell me what that goal is?

To make money. So why the fuck do you advocate workers take less than they can get? Are they not in business?

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin thinks the only ones in business are the corporations. Perhaps he needs a youtube to explain things to him.

[DarrinS]

To make money. So why the fuck do you advocate workers take less than they can get? Are they not in business?


When did I say that? Is a certain standard of living in our Bill of Rights?

[DarrinS]

Darrin thinks the only ones in business are the corporations. Perhaps he needs a youtube to explain things to him.


Maybe a meteorology student can explain it to me. :lmao

[MannyIsGod]

When did I say that? Is a certain standard of living in our Bill of Rights?

Did they get some type of constitutionally protected wage?

[MannyIsGod]

Maybe a meteorology student can explain it to me. :lmao

I guess I miss the humor here. Anyone want to explain it to me?

[MannyIsGod]

Are union jobs the only ones being shipped overseas? IT jobs have been moving overseas at a rapid pace, is that because of unions?

Is it possible that the United States simply is not capable of competing with the wages in those countries?

[DarrinS]

Are union jobs the only ones being shipped overseas? IT jobs have been moving overseas at a rapid pace, is that because of unions?

Is it possible that the United States simply is not capable of competing with the wages in those countries?



Duh! You win a prize. Isn't that what I've been saying? Geez.

[MannyIsGod]

Duh! You win a prize. Isn't that what I've been saying? Geez.

Its not at all what you were saying. You brought up unions. The issue has nothing to do with unions but you tried to blame them. You're too stupid to realize how your programmed biases show in every post you fucking make.

[DarrinS]

Its not at all what you were saying. You brought up unions. The issue has nothing to do with unions but you tried to blame them. You're too stupid to realize how your programmed biases show in every post you fucking make.

God, you're and idiot. Do you think unions have anything to do with their members' wages?

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin, its ok. We all know you don't realize how stupid you are. I should not expect someone to create a master piece when they can't handle drawing a straight line. Its not your fault that we expect you to have the intellect of a normal person. Thats not your fault at all.

[DarrinS]

Darrin, its ok. We all know you don't realize how stupid you are. I should not expect someone to create a master piece when they can't handle drawing a straight line. Its not your fault that we expect you to have the intellect of a normal person. Thats not your fault at all.


<yawn>

[MannyIsGod]

God, you're and idiot. Do you think unions have anything to do with their members' wages?


A Chemical reacts at X temperature.

If a chemical is kept at X+100 temperature and then undergoes event A that raises the temperature another 50 units event A does not cause the reaction.

[MannyIsGod]

<yawn>

uMnekeLTUrw

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin, with or without unions we would be in the same situation therefore they are ancillary. Very, very, simple concept.

[DMX7]

We can make anything. The problem is, our fellow Americans enjoy a standard of living that can't be sustained by factory labor wages. So, they unionize and then wonder why they can't compete with the Chinese.

Nobody can compete with the Chinese if by "compete" you mean employ labor for pennies an hour.

[MannyIsGod]

Nobody can compete with the Chinese if by "compete" you mean employ labor for pennies an hour.

According to Darrin without unions thats exactly what American workers would be working for.

[DMX7]

Well we do have a minimum wage that republicans hate. No surprise there.

[boutons_deux]

right, unions, almost absent from US mfring, demanding their droplets of the trickle-down have destroyed the US manufacturing base.

Solution: manufacturing workers should accept the same pay and benefits as Asian workers.

btw, China Communists, in the Workers' Paradise, are even better as preventing/busting unions than American capitalists.

No matter what system you work in, the oligarchs will fuck you.

[MannyIsGod]

Whats up Darrin, did the hamster finally turn the wheel fast enough for you to connect the dots?

[Sportcamper]

People who think that products from China are of good quality, are too young to have purchased clothing, shoes, tools or furniture from the same companies who used to have factories in the U.S.A.

Unions (not to be confused with state workers) raise the bar to working conditions & fair compensation…If you are employed & have health benefits, thank a trade union…

[CosmicCowboy]

Well we do have a minimum wage that republicans hate. No surprise there.

Who (besides you) says Republicans hate the minimum wage?

[MannyIsGod]

The minimum wage is a joke anyway. You can't live on that even with a Chinese standard of living. Its not about standard of living, its about COST of living and that is something Darrinbot hasn't had written into his script yet.

For someone to maintain a US standard of living in China would they need as much money as they would in the United States? Of course not.

[DMX7]

Who (besides you) says Republicans hate the minimum wage?

lol, really?

How often do you see Democrats holding up minimum wage increases?

[CosmicCowboy]

lol, really?

How often do you see Democrats holding up minimum wage increases?

You are fucking ignorant. The minimum wage increase to $7.25 was overwhelmingly approved. It wasn't a Democrat vs. Republican vote. Idiot.

[MannyIsGod]

7.25x40 = 290 x 52 = 15,080/12 = 1256.66 dollars a month.

Thats a mighty high standard of living.

[boutons_deux]

"7.25x40"

And because they can't make it on 40, a lot of those people are putting in 60 x or 80 x $7.25 per week. And of course, no benefits, no holiday, no nothing, sorta like illegal immigrants picking fruit and veg.

Then they get to sit all weekend (what's left of it, if anything), in the county hospital ER with their sick kid, since they can't afford $90/visit to Tex Med Clinic.

Here's a great trickle down story. Dr Pepper Snapple buys Mott's, and then demands a $3K/year wage cut for a highly profitable company (which is why they bought it).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-elk/was-the-motts-strike-vict_b_716755.html?view=print

[DMX7]

You are fucking ignorant. The minimum wage increase to $7.25 was overwhelmingly approved. It wasn't a Democrat vs. Republican vote. Idiot.

lol, you exposed yourself again, you fucking retard.

It's always Democrat vs. Republican. Check the House vote, then check all the tax cuts that had to be loaded into it to get passage. Then check the the year after year of republicans trying to shoot down even a vote on it.

[DarrinS]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162659

[DMX7]

What a dumbass you are, CosmicCowboy. You don't know anything about the legislative process or the history of minimum wage even though you're probably someone who has lived off it. Well done, you typical republican dolt.

[CosmicCowboy]

What a dumbass you are, CosmicCowboy. You don't know anything about the legislative process or the history of minimum wage even though you're probably someone who has lived off it. Well done, you typical republican dolt.

Don't be bitter. I'm sure you'll get that nickel raise after you have been there for a year.

[Winehole23]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162659I don't get it. It was easier to link to the earlier thread? Rly?

Paraphrasing your own remark was either out of the question or did not arise I guess.

[silverblk mystix]

To take this in a different direction;

Americans can and do build some of the best things in the world, except I think you are referring to building something in mass quantities to actually make America prosperous again.

It is not that we are incapable-it is that we are looking to get the lowest priced item-but it does NOT have to continue this way.

Things run in cycles and right now we are in an age of quantity over quality.

Here's an example of american superiority;

Musical instruments made by small boutique companies.

You can go buy a mass produced guitar or amp and pay anywhere from 69 to 5,000 dollars and it will probably be built somewhere in korea, china or some other country.
The instrument will probably work okay for 1-5 years--maybe longer. For example an amplifier made by Fender will still sound pretty cool and it will have a printed circuit board, sub-par parts,screws, wires, plywood or particle board,etc...

For a few dollars more;

You can order an amp from an American boutique company like Carr Amplifiers, Vintage Sound Amps (I own one of their amps) , Victoria Amps, etc.
...and your order will be taken by the amp builder himself, the amp company OWNER himself and he will discuss exactly how he builds them, why he builds them and will tell you how long before it is done, may email you some pictures of the amp build in progress,etc
...and this amp will be built using the EXACT procedures and circuit designs that LEO FENDER himself used in the 1950's, will contain a hand-wired chassis instead of a printed circuit board, a solid pine cabinet instead of particle board,etc...
every piece and part of the amp will be built from the best and highest quality parts --built in America...

the cost of the Fender with inferior parts and mass produced assembly line quality (or lack of quality) will cost around , say- 1200 dollars and will be discounted to about 999 at your nearest guitar center...

the boutique amp will cost around 1500-1600 dollars shipped to your door and will last a lifetime and carry a long warranty--some builders even make the warranty transferable to the next owner--and will go for 10 years strong or more.

Now, the question is...do you want to own something built right and pay a little more--or do you want to save a few bucks in the front end and pay for it after it breaks down a few times?

In today's America--unfortunately--people want to be cheap...

But someday the wheel will come full circle and people will start to want to own something that was built by someone they actually met and will want something built that will last a lifetime--and in the process maybe the pride of American built craftsmanship will once again lead the rest of the world.

The same example applies in guitar making.

[ElNono]

We can make anything. The problem is, our fellow Americans enjoy a standard of living that can't be sustained by factory labor wages. So, they unionize and then wonder why they can't compete with the Chinese.

There's still quite a few things made in America. Here's a site that track that stuff down for those interested: http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

The actual problem with this is multi-faceted: The political power in China manipulates their currency so their citizens can't really improve their cost of living. The same political power holds a tight grip on the population so they can't rebel against that.

The bolded part makes no sense at all, unless you're advocating moving to an economic system similar to China, which would necessarily need to include an oppressive government and all.

[Winehole23]

Quality can be preferable to lower cost, but if the market demands a lower cost, it can be hard to grow past the niche who appreciate the quality.

[MannyIsGod]

The quality simple isn't necessary on a large scale. For a nearly 200% increase in price that you noted on guitar amps you're not going to see a 200% increase in performance or reliability. Most people wouldn't notice the difference in those amps.

Its not about being cheap, its about not needing the extra amount that costs you a large deal.

[DarrinS]

There's still quite a few things made in America. Here's a site that track that stuff down for those interested: http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

The actual problem with this is multi-faceted: The political power in China manipulates their currency so their citizens can't really improve their cost of living. The same political power holds a tight grip on the population so they can't rebel against that.

The bolded part makes no sense at all, unless you're advocating moving to an economic system similar to China, which would necessarily need to include an oppressive government and all.



If it's made in America, it will cost more. That is all I am saying.

[MannyIsGod]

No, thats not all you're saying. You blamed it on unions. If that was all you were saying you would never have brought up unions. You don't even know what the fuck you're saying because you're so god damn stupid.

[Winehole23]

I don't think Darrin keeps track of what he says. He's inattentive in general.

[DarrinS]

No, thats not all you're saying. You blamed it on unions. If that was all you were saying you would never have brought up unions. You don't even know what the fuck you're saying because you're so god damn stupid.


Unions are part of the problem. I don't think any forklift drivers deserve 100k/year, unless that's what the market is willing to pay them.

[MannyIsGod]

Unions are part of the problem. I don't think any forklift drivers deserve 100k/year, unless that's what the market is willing to pay them.

When unions negotiate their rates thats not what the market is willing to pay them? If the market is not willing to pay them that much then how exactly are they getting that?

:lmao

[silverblk mystix]

The quality simple isn't necessary on a large scale. For a nearly 200% increase in price that you noted on guitar amps you're not going to see a 200% increase in performance or reliability. Most people wouldn't notice the difference in those amps.

Its not about being cheap, its about not needing the extra amount that costs you a large deal.

I have to disagree.

The quality, the sound, the reliability are all vastly superior IMO, plus you can also find these boutique amps on the used market and it almost makes it a no-brainer. A used quality amp to last a lifetime or a cheap china built rattlebox that won't last for pretty much the same price.

[DarrinS]

When unions negotiate their rates thats not what the market is willing to pay them? If the market is not willing to pay them that much then how exactly are they getting that?

:lmao


Sure did wonders for GM.

[Winehole23]

Bad business model is a bitch. GM shouldn't have signed the contract if it was unsustainable.

[TeyshaBlue]

The quality simple isn't necessary on a large scale. For a nearly 200% increase in price that you noted on guitar amps you're not going to see a 200% increase in performance or reliability. Most people wouldn't notice the difference in those amps.

Its not about being cheap, its about not needing the extra amount that costs you a large deal.

It's not a linear arrangement tho, Manny. You don't pay $1.00 for a $1.00 increase in quality or reliablity....completely different metrics. I'll gladly pay an additional $500 for an amp that sounds a little nicer and gives me a longer service life because, it's a pain in the ass when an amp craps out on ya when you're on the road or on stage.

You'd be surprised just how many of these boutique amps are sold these days. It's not an insignficant number.:hat

[TeyshaBlue]

Bad business model is a bitch. GM shouldn't have signed the contract if it was unsustainable.

Exactly. Management and the unions both take the hit on the GM deal....and ultimately management moreso. They're the ones who are supposed to be able to forecast costs/sales.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure did wonders for GM.

Darrinbot did the market set those rates or not?

[MannyIsGod]

It's not a linear arrangement tho, Manny. You don't pay $1.00 for a $1.00 increase in quality or reliablity....completely different metrics. I'll gladly pay an additional $500 for an amp that sounds a little nicer and gives me a longer service life because, it's a pain in the ass when an amp craps out on ya when you're on the road or on stage.

You'd be surprised just how many of these boutique amps are sold these days. It's not an insignficant number.:hat

I'm not an amp expert so the point wasn't to focus on whether or not these amps are worth it but rather than on the whole paying for anything botique implies a greater appreciation for an item and the willingness to pay for that extra OOMPH that you enjoy.

However, for the general market that is never going to be the case or else the item would not be a boutique item.

Having good quality is a great thing. Having boutique quality at botique prices is not something that will every succeed on a large scale by the very definition of boutique.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not an amp expert so the point wasn't to focus on whether or not these amps are worth it but rather than on the whole paying for anything botique implies a greater appreciation for an item and the willingness to pay for that extra OOMPH that you enjoy.

However, for the general market that is never going to be the case or else the item would not be a boutique item.

Having good quality is a great thing. Having boutique quality at botique prices is not something that will every succeed on a large scale by the very definition of boutique.

Yeah, I see the mass sales/boutique paradox. However, the class of boutique amps together has a retail amp impact on the market.

Mercedes has made bank on that concept for a century.

[ElNono]

Chinese can build as high quality products as we do, for cheaper too. It really has little to do with this problem. The reason you don't see more high quality products, or just see a threshold drawn at some point, is because the demand is in cheaper, lower quality products, and the companies that makes them are, in general, happy to oblige.

[byrontx]

We can make anything. The problem is, our fellow Americans enjoy a standard of living that can't be sustained by factory labor wages. So, they unionize and then wonder why they can't compete with the Chinese.

That is a nice simplistic observation. Are Americans suppose to compete for jobs that pay several bowls of rice per day?

Maybe the real answer is to drop the gobalization mantra and quit buying shit from China, Inc that we can make ourselves.

[Nbadan]

That is a nice simplistic observation. Are Americans suppose to compete for jobs that pay several bowls of rice per day?

Maybe the real answer is to drop the gobalization mantra and quit buying shit from China, Inc that we can make ourselves.

Simplistic observation is all you ever get from Darrin....

...there is nothing sacred to globalist..they will sell whatever it takes to make the short-term bottom line...that's why we can't manufacture shit here...imagine Germany exporting its technology to make Mercedes to China...

[ElNono]

Maybe the real answer is to drop the gobalization mantra and quit buying shit from China, Inc that we can make ourselves.

That's anti-capitalistic, anti-free market and thus anti-American!

<Insert YouTube here>

[Nbadan]

That's anti-capitalistic, anti-free market and thus anti-American!

<Insert YouTube here>

:lol

Ironic huh? Those are the times....any effort to protect American jobs and technology makes you 'un-American'!

[Winehole23]

That is a nice simplistic observation. Are Americans suppose to compete for jobs that pay several bowls of rice per day?

Maybe the real answer is to drop the gobalization mantra and quit buying shit from China, Inc that we can make ourselves.There's an interesting new book about how free trade wrecked the British Empire and how it's wrecking us. Don't know enough about it yet to agree or disagree, but here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Free-Trade-Doesnt-Work-Replace/product-reviews/0578048205/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[DarrinS]

Question:

Why do companies leave California?

[byrontx]

There's an interesting new book about how free trade wrecked the British Empire and how it's wrecking us. Don't know enough about it yet to agree or disagree, but here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Free-Trade-Doesnt-Work-Replace/product-reviews/0578048205/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Thanks, Winehole.

Of course, the real problem is that it is free-trade only one way. In the recent tussle between Japan and China it came out that China forces domestic rare-earth producers to sell at a discounted price within China and much higher prices for export. The goal is to force electronic manufacturers to locate production inside of China. The US just does not have an overall manufacturing policy like that so American workers pay the price. It has nothing at all to do with unions. They are just whipping boys for the Republicans that have no issue with sending American jobs overseas. It is sort of a slap-down to those few American workers you have to keep. It is policies such as globalization that will allow further concentration of capital in the top few percent. Ironically, the people who bitch so much about Mexicans will in a few more generation complete the Mexication of our economy-the priviledged few and the poor masses.

[Supergirl]

There's still quite a few things made in America. Here's a site that track that stuff down for those interested: http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/



interesting website. thanks for posting it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

imo stop outsourcing, those products that come back from imports should be tariff hard and remove the made in america label....to encourage consumers to buy american products.

[Winehole23]

Ironically, the people who bitch so much about Mexicans will in a few more generation complete the Mexication of our economy-the priviledged few and the poor masses.There will be more "Mexicans" too, in a more third-worldish America. Book it.

The "Mexication" -- what? -- of the US population is happening as we speak. We're getting browner. Everyone needs to get over it. It ain't a tragedy.

(Yet. It's the bad ole whorl. Anything could happen.)

In my book, it's good for Americans to have contact with large numbers of predominantly Roman Catholic, work-motivated immigrants acquainted with traditions of parsimony and thrift, and the slightly spooky concept of action performed as sacrifice.

Even better if they stay. Teach us a goddam lesson about the value of our wages, at least. We could sure use it.

[Winehole23]

We really need em to pay for our old/sick/broke asses, but we don't wanna pay em too much.

[Cry Havoc]

Question:

Why do companies leave California?

:lmao

Translation: I'm humiliated/embarrassed whenever I try to make a statement, so now I'm going to ask questions instead, since that means I'm not really "saying" anything.

[DarrinS]

:lmao

Translation: I'm humiliated/embarrassed whenever I try to make a statement, so now I'm going to ask questions instead, since that means I'm not really "saying" anything.



Translation: I'm dumb and have nothing to offer in this thread, so I'll attack a poster whose positions I disagree with.

[Cry Havoc]

Translation: I'm dumb and have nothing to offer in this thread, so I'll attack a poster whose positions I disagree with.

Of course I have nothing to offer in this thread. Why would I spend time on you, who will never, ever change his opinion or listen to someone else aside from Yoni or Wild Cobra? What does posting here gain me? You've been completely shut down this entire thread, and you still attempt to speak as if you know or understand 1/10th as much as the other posters here. It's a waste of time.

Way to respond to me, instead of the other posts that have invalidated your arguments, though. :lol

[byrontx]

There will be more "Mexicans" too, in a more third-worldish America. Book it.

The "Mexication" -- what? -- of the US population is happening as we speak. We're getting browner. Everyone needs to get over it. It ain't a tragedy.

(Yet. It's the bad ole whorl. Anything could happen.)

In my book, it's good for Americans to have contact with large numbers of predominantly Roman Catholic, work-motivated immigrants acquainted with traditions of parsimony and thrift, and the slightly spooky concept of action performed as sacrifice.

Even better if they stay. Teach us a goddam lesson about the value of our wages, at least. We could sure use it.

I just made up the word to name the process of an economy evolving from one with a healthy middle class to one with consisting of an economic elite and huddled masses of poor.

I do not have a big issue with the folks that come here to work. I would do the same damn thing if it would mean a better life for my family. The vast majority come here for the opportunity to earn a living and give their family a better life, not to go on the dole. Most of the people from Mexico have strong family values and work ethic, I have no issue with them. Their kids will most likely be the ones paying into social security so I can collect a check.

[byrontx]

Did you think I was one of those people bitching about illegal immigration.? Nope, my comments were directed towards Republican economics policies such as Trickle-Down, Supply-side and Globalization. If persued for another generation or two these policies will likely lead to a Republican utopia where Don Koch would have feudal rights over the people lucky enough to have jobs shoveling chicken shit.
It is amazing that during “W’s” reign he could make a run at legislating away time and a half after 40 hrs of work without getting Joe Sixpack marching in the street. The Republican propaganda machine is so effective with god, guns and noise that he thought he could pull it off. People keep being manipulated into voting against their self-interest. We as a country have to develop an economic policy that places the overall's country's interests over that of a privileged few. That may involve selective tariffs and other aggressive polices that replaces the kow-towing to globalization.
.

[boutons_deux]

no "time and a half after 40 hrs of work"

yep, just another battle won in owners'/mgmt's successful never-ending War on Employees and the middle class. aka, redistribution of wealth upwards.

"So you want OT, asshole?

I wave my magic riot baton, and poof, you're managerial.

No OT for you."

And people want to hand power to these Repug assholes again?

Repugs' "business friendly" is really anti-employees, anti-consumer, anti-citizen.

[Nbadan]

you're managerial.

..actually it was 'your managerial or your out' policy....nice post byrontx...

...if the GOP wants to win in November and beyond it has to start producing policy to protect American jobs....