Does winning a championship make a player a better basketball player?

[O.J Mayo]

We got idiots talking out of their ass like if Kobe wins 7 championships, he surpasses Jordan and idiots who say LeBron James needs to win NBA championships before he should be considered the best player in the NBA. Really now?

Why does it matter if this guy has more championships than the other guy when talking about performances? Does going 6/24 get vilified because he had 15 rebounds and the TEAM won the game, not him, the TEAM, mean he didn't suck?

Does losing a playoff series but putting up a great performance make you a worse basketball player? I don't get it. Could someone please explain to me why winning championships make a player a basketball player?

[Years]

If we're talking about on an all-time basis to be considered better then a player like Duncan or Hakeem you need championships or you're like everyone else an extremely talented player who couldn't elevate his team to a championship. Everyone in that top 10 range are both extrenly talented and have multiple rings.

To be considered the best player in the Nba is based on a single season instead of a career so I don't think championships should be taken into consideration for that.

[O.J Mayo]

If we're talking about on an all-time basis to be considered better then a player like Duncan or Hakeem you need championships or you're like everyone else an extremely talented player who couldn't elevate his team to a championship. Everyone in that top 10 range are both extrenly talented and have multiple rings.

To be considered the best player in the Nba is based on a single season instead of a career so I don't think championships should be taken into consideration for that.
I am talking about being a better player. Not "greatness", as some would define, racking up accolades and NBA titles. The second point is what I am after. Why do idiots like to throw in championships? Does that make a player more dominant, a better player, more skilled, have more stats, more impactful? If not, why are these same idiots saying that LeBron needs to win a championship before he is considered the best player in the NBA?

[Venti Quattro]

on an individual plateau yes. winning a championship is like losing your virginity. after the first time, you'll get better at sex. so that means you should be a better basketball player because you've already reached the top. but vis-a-vis other greats, i'm not sure. some players did more spectacular things than others while winning a ring. some won in style and some barely got over the hump.

but winning championships IS a great insulator from the prying media.

btw nice thread, Chieflion

[O.J Mayo]

on an individual plateau yes. winning a championship is like losing your virginity. after the first time, you'll get better at sex. so that means you should be a better basketball player because you've already reached the top. but vis-a-vis other greats, i'm not sure. some players did more spectacular things than others while winning a ring. some won in style and some barely got over the hump.

but winning championships IS a great insulator from the prying media.

btw nice thread, Chieflion

On your point, if someone touches flour once, do they become a better baker? How does winning a championship make one a better player? There is no particular difference between "You are great at sex" and "You are good at sex". They basically mean the same thing although one might add "fuck, this feels good" to the list, but that isn't the point. The point is that, in basketball, there is a difference being great on the all-time list against being the best basketball player that particular season.

If someone wins a championship once, they don't automatically become a better basketball player. A championship takes a TEAM to win it, a very good one, I must add. You were again, defining "greatness", not who is the "better" basketball player. Players do earn respect for winning championships, not sitting on the bench like Adam Morrison, but that doesn't make them a better basketball player.

Now, for example, if Zach Randolph suddenly wins a championship, would you consider him a better basketball player, assuming he gets traded to the Orlando Magic or Miami Heat and then they won the championship, how is he a better basketball player than what he was in the past?

[Giuseppe]

We can keep the Kobe Vs. Jordan for another day, but, as far as the winning a championship getting James off the snide, oh yeah. That motherf'er puts his pants on the same as everybody else. He'll answer like everybody else.

I remember, I say, I remember when Daddy was crusin' around without one. They (Media) was fixin' to camp out in his shit for forever & a day. Not Kobe, but Daddy.

Go back and view the video in the immediate aftermath of Lakers Vs Pacers when it was over and the look of absolute anguish on the face of Daddy as he searches for his people at the restraining ropes in Staples. It's a humbling sight. No game face. No Shaq Daddy bullshit. O'Neal knew.

James been lucky. Media ain't takin' off after him yet with tar & feathers. Different NBA. Different Media. Different America.

He's a lucky guy, the ringless fuck.

[O.J Mayo]

We can keep the Kobe Vs. Jordan for another day, but, as far as the winning a championship getting James off the snide, oh yeah. That motherf'er puts his pants on the same as everybody else. He'll answer like everybody else.

I remember, I say, I remember when Daddy was crusin' around without one. They (Media) was fixin' to camp out in his shit for forever & a day. Not Kobe, but Daddy.

Go back and view the video in the immediate aftermath of Lakers Vs Pacers when it was over and the look of absolute anguish on the face of Daddy as he searches for his people at the restraining ropes in Staples. It's a humbling sight. No game face. No Shaq Daddy bullshit. O'Neal knew.

James been lucky. Media ain't takin' off after him yet with tar & feathers. Different NBA. Different Media. Different America.

He's a lucky guy, the ringless fuck.

What's your point? So if Shaq didn't win the championship because of a bad supporting cast, he wouldn't be considered the best player that year?

Then again, you also think Will Hunting is a real poster and keep wanting him to come back, so why should I take you seriously?

[Giuseppe]

What's your point? So if Shaq didn't win the championship because of a bad supporting cast, he wouldn't be considered the best player that year?

Then again, you also think Will Hunting is a real poster and keep wanting him to come back, so why should I take you seriously?

You don't have to take me seriously. You asked a question, I'm goin' to take off after it like the last pork chop on the plate.

That pile a shit in Miami is gonna ring, or, woe be to him & everybody that sides him.

Now,

Let us proceed...

[O.J Mayo]

You don't have to take me seriously. You asked a question, I'm goin' to take off after it like the last pork chop on the plate.

That pile a shit in Miami is gonna ring, or, woe be to him & everybody that sides him.

Now,

Let us proceed...

Be careful there, Cubby, lakaluva doesn't like anyone eating pork chops or any other pork related food substances.

[Giuseppe]

The kicker? That Thursday when we hit at 16 the first thought I had (after Luva) was Will Hunting. If I could only fix one solitary mother'fer's wagon Will Hunting's would be my immediate choice.

Just like that.

[Basketball Jones]

It is what it is. It may not actually make them a better player but face it, it does distinguish one's career. You all really don't believe MJ would have the status he does if he hadn't won championships do you? Get real.

[O.J Mayo]

It is what it is. It may not actually make them a better player but face it, it does distinguish one's career. You all really don't believe MJ would have the status he does if he hadn't won championships do you? Get real.

Don't know how to read? I said how it makes them a better basketball player, not how people and the media view them. How does a championship or multiple championships make someone a better player than he already is? Does that give them a bonus stat addition? This ain't stupid games like WoW or shit like this that wearing championship rings make you a better player.

No one post in this thread I made wanted you to focus on how a player looks over a damn career. I am talking about 1 season. Can you count them? 1.

[Basketball Jones]

Don't know how to read? I said how it makes them a better basketball player, not how people and the media view them. How does a championship or multiple championships make someone a better player than he already is? Does that give them a bonus stat addition? This ain't stupid games like WoW or shit like this that wearing championship rings make you a better player.

No one post in this thread I made wanted you to focus on how a player looks over a damn career. I am talking about 1 season. Can you count them? 1.

Yes, it DOES make them a better player as once they've tasted the thrill of winning a championship it makes then hunger for another one. Something that prince james has yet to taste but rather has enjoyed the bitter taste of defeat which you would think would make him a better player and not a quitter. It isn't really hard to understand. Kobe works hard during the off season and it pays off.

[O.J Mayo]

Yes, it DOES make them a better player as once they've tasted the thrill of winning a championship it makes then hunger for another one. Something that prince james has yet to taste but rather has enjoyed the bitter taste of defeat which you would think would make him a better player and not a quitter. It isn't really hard to understand. Kobe works hard during the off season and it pays off.

How do you prove this bullshit? How did Kobe become a better player after 2009 into 2010? Working hard in the off-season is an entirely separate issue than winning a championship. What is with all these unquantifiable bullshit you all are spewing out? Championships do not make players better. They are only looked upon as such.

How does having championships make someone automatically a better player? We have idiots saying LeBron James isn't the best player in the NBA until he wins one. How does one suddenly become the best player after winning? He would basically be the same player he is before winning. All that hunger and bullshit only applies to Kobe Bryant, it is as if every other player doesn't work hard in the off-season and all that crap.

[Giuseppe]

Because James has fled the side door on more than one occasion. He's ringless, ipso facto, he's fair game.

Jordan had to sustain the berating. Daddy as well.

Smith sits up there on that TnT set smirking at Barkley secure in the knowledge of what is & what isn't.

James should consider himself fortunate that he wasn't born 15 years earlier than he was. They'd a ate him alive.

[Booharv]

Don't know how to read? I said how it makes them a better basketball player, not how people and the media view them. How does a championship or multiple championships make someone a better player than he already is? Does that give them a bonus stat addition? This ain't stupid games like WoW or shit like this that wearing championship rings make you a better player.

No one post in this thread I made wanted you to focus on how a player looks over a damn career. I am talking about 1 season. Can you count them? 1.

Sometimes players ultimately win because they altered their game in some fundamental way that made their team better and consequently made themselves a better basketball player. But in James and Jordan's case I wouldn't say it made a difference. I'm one of the few people that will give James a pass for last year, as I really believe that the Delonte shit, if true, fucked with his head.

But even ignoring that James was so spectacular in the 2008-09 playoffs that it was clear to anyone thinking with their head and not their emotions or biases that he was the best player in the league. He sported a fucking 37.4 PER for that playoffs. I know some people myself included scoff PER at times but its a good measurement of how statistically productive a player and James was off the charts. Plus even last year he lost a series to Boston in which Jamison and Mo Williams lost their individual matchups with KG and Rondo to a staggeringly massive degree.

In Jordan's case there's more of a point. The naysayers will point to his being told in the huddle by Jackson to pass to Paxson to close out the LA series but they were already up 3-1 at that point. Joe Dumars did comment though that he had finally figured out how to beat their Jordan Rules defense by being unselfish in the 91 conference finals and passing the ball early in the double team. But I really agree to a great extent with Bill Simmons who in his book argues that Jordan fully matured as a player in 88 or 89 but it took his teammates a few years to catch up and stop murdering him every spring.

Basically, if a player finally plays the game the right way and that change is what makes his team win a championship then yea that makes him a better player. If he just plays the same way he always has been such as in the case of Kobe then no. Hell no.

[O.J Mayo]

Because James has fled the side door on more than one occasion. He's ringless, ipso facto, he's fair game.

Jordan had to sustain the berating. Daddy as well.

Smith sits up there on that TnT set smirking at Barkley secure in the knowledge of what is & what isn't.

James should consider himself fortunate that he wasn't born 15 years earlier than he was. They'd a ate him alive.

Doesn't prove shit. As far as everyone was concerned, all three were considered the best players in the NBA even before they won a title, Jordan in 1988, LeBron in 2009, Shaq in 2000 (before he won the title). Even though they were criticized, they were still the best.

Then again, why should anyone act like you have a basketball opinion as an Arizona Lakers fan who piggybacked on the Lakers because they had titles?

[Giuseppe]

I ain't here to be believed. I'm here to mark the spot/tote up the cyphers/check assholes.

And that's just the way it's gonna be.

[Booharv]

Kobe was pretty much exactly the same player the year he lost to Celtics versus the year he beat the Magic. Here's his numbers from 08 versus 09 in the playoffs:

2008 Kobe (21 games): 30.1 pts, 5.7 reb, 5.6 ast, 3.3 TO, 22.0 FGA, 9.2 FTA, 47.9 FG%, 81 FT%, 30 3FG%, 41.1 MPG.

2009 Kobe (23 games): 30.2 pts, 5.3 reb, 5.5 ast, 2.6 TO, 23.0 FGA, 8.6 FTA, 45.7 FG%, 88 FT%, 35 3FG%, 40.9 MPG.

Suddenly because he won the media pumps up the story that he matured or some bullshit. Now if a player drastically changes his numbers or plays in some way differently and that is why the team wins you could make a case but Lebron's numbers were already plenty good enough to lead a team to a title in 2008-09.

[O.J Mayo]

Sometimes players ultimately win because they altered their game in some fundamental way that made their team better and consequently made themselves a better basketball player. But in James and Jordan's case I wouldn't say it made a difference. I'm one of the few people that will give James a pass for last year, as I really believe that the Delonte shit, if true, fucked with his head.

But even ignoring that James was so spectacular in the 2008-09 playoffs that it was clear to anyone thinking with their head and not their emotions or biases that he was the best player in the league. He sported a fucking 37.4 PER for that playoffs. I know some people myself included scoff PER at times but its a good measurement of how statistically productive a player and James was off the charts. Plus even last year he lost a series to Boston in which Jamison and Mo Williams lost their individual matchups with KG and Rondo to a staggeringly massive degree.

In Jordan's case there's more of a point. The naysayers will point to his being told in the huddle by Jackson to pass to Paxson to close out the LA series but they were already up 3-1 at that point. Joe Dumars did comment though that he had finally figured out how to beat their Jordan Rules defense by being unselfish in the 91 conference finals and passing the ball early in the double team. But I really agree to a great extent with Bill Simmons who in his book argues that Jordan fully matured as a player in 88 or 89 but it took his teammates a few years to catch up and stop murdering him every spring.

Basically, if a player finally plays the game the right way and that change is what makes his team win a championship then yea that makes him a better player. If he just plays the same way he always has been such as in the case of Kobe then no. Hell no.

Thank you. Someone actually brought forth the point I was trying to get at. A superstar also must have an excellent team beside him that will help him out to win a championship. So ultimately, it is still the TEAM that won the title. Although said player does play the most important role in winning a championship, you can't win championships with shit players and championships do not automatically make someone a better player. They must prove it.

Yes, by altering their game to be more efficient and playing to win, makes the player a better player, not just said result like a championship alone, regardless of the reasons of why the player won a championship.

[O.J Mayo]

Kobe was pretty much exactly the same player the year he lost to Celtics versus the year he beat the Magic. Here's his numbers from 08 versus 09 in the playoffs:

2008 Kobe (21 games): 30.1 pts, 5.7 reb, 5.6 ast, 3.3 TO, 22.0 FGA, 9.2 FTA, 47.9 FG%, 81 FT%, 30 3FG%, 41.1 MPG.

2009 Kobe (23 games): 30.2 pts, 5.3 reb, 5.5 ast, 2.6 TO, 23.0 FGA, 8.6 FTA, 45.7 FG%, 88 FT%, 35 3FG%, 40.9 MPG.

Suddenly because he won the media pumps up the story that he matured or some bullshit. Now if a player drastically changes his numbers or plays in some way differently and that is why the team wins you could make a case but Lebron's numbers were already plenty good enough to lead a team to a title in 2008-09.
Once again, thank you for another brilliant post. Kobe Bryant remained the same player or thereabout even after winning a title as the best player on the team versus losing the previous year.

Thank you so much for proving to all those idiots who believe Kobe Bryant had suddenly become a better player and could surpass Magic, Kareem, Jordan and all that jargon if he had more championships.

[Giuseppe]

You can chase your asshole round your elbow till the cows come home. Lee missed that layup, Kobe shoveled it to Artest and that's just the way it's gonna be, O.J.

That's it, and that's all.

[Will Hunting]

The kicker? That Thursday when we hit at 16 the first thought I had (after Luva) was Will Hunting. If I could only fix one solitary mother'fer's wagon Will Hunting's would be my immediate choice.

Just like that.
Lookit fuckstick, I know you've been thinking of me, is there something you have to say you fuckin war losing hump?

[O.J Mayo]

You can chase your asshole round your elbow till the cows come home. Lee missed that layup, Kobe shoveled it to Artest and that's just the way it's gonna be, O.J.

That's it, and that's all.

5,435 posts and none of them had or proved a point. You only proved that you are a bandwagoning Arizona Lakers fan and a pedophile.

That's it, and that's all.

[O.J Mayo]

And there's Will Hunting ready to check your asshole.

[Giuseppe]

Perhaps, but, two charters left Boston.

Just like that.

[Will Hunting]

Perhaps, but, two charters left Boston.

Just like that.
Kinda like two charters left Vietnam after the Vietkong took your cookie and made you like it.

tee, hee

[Giuseppe]

Lookit fuckstick, I know you've been thinking of me, is there something you have to say you fuckin war losing hump?

lmcontrollinao!

Come ta Pappy.

[Giuseppe]

GO---Will Hunting---GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[monosylab1k]

The kicker? That Thursday when we hit at 16 the first thought I had (after Luva) was Will Hunting. If I could only fix one solitary mother'fer's wagon Will Hunting's would be my immediate choice.

Just like that.

lmao Cubby if you only knew the true identity of Will Hunting.

tee, hee.

[Giuseppe]

lmao Cubby if you only knew the true identity of Will Hunting. Rumor has that the genius behind that troll is out, and stayin that way.

tee, hee.

I don't have to know, Mono. Artest made Pierce take it, & like it.

[Will Hunting]

I don't have to know, Mono. Artest made Pierce take it, & like it.
:lmao

[Will Hunting]

Hey Cully, do you like apples?

[monosylab1k]

I don't have to know, Mono. Artest made Pierce take it, & like it.

True, but let's not forget the summer of 04 when the ensemble up North made Team HOF'ers sit at the Chuckbox alone for lunch.

tee, hee.

[Will Hunting]

I went to the Chuckbox once when I was visiting my friend who lives in Arizona, the burgers were wicked pissah!

[Giuseppe]

True, but let's not forget the summer of 04 when the ensemble up North made Team HOF'ers sit at the Chuckbox alone for lunch.

tee, hee.

Or, the Summer of '06 when you stepped out the door.

muhahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Koolaid_Man]

We got idiots talking out of their ass like if Kobe wins 7 championships, he surpasses Jordan and idiots who say LeBron James needs to win NBA championships before he should be considered the best player in the NBA. Really now?

Why does it matter if this guy has more championships than the other guy when talking about performances? Does going 6/24 get vilified because he had 15 rebounds and the TEAM won the game, not him, the TEAM, mean he didn't suck?

Does losing a playoff series but putting up a great performance make you a worse basketball player? I don't get it. Could someone please explain to me why winning championships make a player a basketball player?


I don't blame you for posting this shit you're a fan of the fucking Grizzles...I mean the goddamn Grizzles for fuck's sake...your teams ceiling is around 8-11th seed every year for the rest of their existence...

Here's an Championship Title vs Sex analogy:

Why does it matter is just like bragging about how many bitches you have but you're fucking absolutely none of them. It's all that matters son. You can't prove your sexual prowess just by hanging around the ho's... you eventually gotta fuck em. You eventually gotta punch that fucking card...

Memo to Lebron, OJ Mayo, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitski, Yao Ming, Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudamire, Dwight Howard....

You can run from that pussy bitches but you can't hide...:lmao

[monosylab1k]

Or, the Summer of '06 when you stepped out the door.

muhahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you enjoyed feeding that shit sandwich back to Sheed, but how does it feel knowing ol' Rippy, Prince, and Afroman will always have the Summer of 04 to hang over your head? Along with Larry Brown, who frankly is head and shoulders a better coach than ol' 11 Rings.

tee, hee

[Giuseppe]

I know you enjoyed feeding that shit sandwich back to Sheed, but how does it feel knowing ol' Rippy, Prince, and Afroman will always have the Summer of 04 to hang over your head? Along with Larry Brown, who frankly is head and shoulders a better coach than ol' 11 Rings.

tee, hee

I take solace in the mud hut The Princess built 'em.

jejejeje!!!

[Giuseppe]

You humps give in too easy. They never gave it up to Cubby as easy over at Sose's Joint.

tee, hee.

[Will Hunting]

You humps give in too easy. They never gave it up to Cubby as easy over at Sose's Joint.

tee, hee.
Sorry, I was helping my big jawed girlfriend with her math homework.

Let us proceed.

[Giuseppe]

^Ray Allen.

tee, hee.

[Veterinarian]

It should come as no surprise that Culburn/lakaluva types think that winning a championship makes player x automatically somehow better than player y. After all these fucktards think if the team they root for wins a championship it makes them a better poster.

[Giuseppe]

Don't even start, Vet, you was PMailing me two days ago begging me to come save you all from Duncan.

ha, ha.

[Veterinarian]

Don't even start, Vet, you was PMailing me two days ago begging me to come save you all from Duncan.

ha, ha.

:lmao :lmao What the fuck are you talking about?

[Giuseppe]

- "Cubby, Duncan is over in the NFL Forum giving us shit. Can you come over there and settle his hash, please? Also, you're kinda cute for an older fellow and I'd like to taste that grapefruit sized prostate gland you spoke of the other day."

- Veterinarian

[Basketball Jones]

I still stand by posts and statistics don't always tell the whole story. Same player statistically doesn't mean they were the same player mentally and skillfully. Even lebron is trying to better understand the mental aspect of the game and playing smarter although he has proven he has not learned enough.

[Will Hunting]

:lmao :lmao What the fuck are you talking about?
He has PTSD after the Vietkong took his cookie and made him like it.

tee, hee

[Giuseppe]

Even lebron is trying to better understand the mental aspect of the game and playing smarter although he has proven he has not learned enough.

Well, pish posh.

[Giuseppe]

He has PTSD after the Vietkong took his cookie and made him like it.

tee, hee

Ray Allen, indeed.

[Will Hunting]

Ray Allen, indeed.
Ho Chi Minh City, indeed.

[Veterinarian]

- "Cubby, Duncan is over in the NFL Forum giving us shit. Can you come over there and settle his hash, please? Also, you're kinda cute for an older fellow and I'd like to taste that grapefruit sized prostate gland you spoke of the other day."

- Veterinarian

You mean Duncan228? Seriously dude I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Produce a screenshot or copy of this so called PM. Or else just argue like everyone else and don't resort to making up random gibberish.

[Giuseppe]

Perkins.

tee, hee.

[O.J Mayo]

I still stand by posts and statistics don't always tell the whole story. Same player statistically doesn't mean they were the same player mentally and skillfully. Even lebron is trying to better understand the mental aspect of the game and playing smarter although he has proven he has not learned enough.

Kobe Bryant forcing up shots in game 7 of the 2010 finals sure was enough proof that he was playing like a smart player.

[Giuseppe]

You mean Duncan228? Seriously dude I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Produce a screenshot or copy of this so called PM. Or else just argue like everyone else and don't resort to making up random gibberish.

No, Dok. You sent me a PM beseeching me to give him the treatment during your firefight with him at the NFL Forum.

ha, ha.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe Bryant forcing up shots in game 7 of the 2010 finals sure was enough proof that he was playing like a smart player.

He finally got it though inside a minute.

tee, hee.

[Veterinarian]

No, Dok. You sent me a PM beseeching me to give him the treatment during your firefight with him at the NFL Forum.

ha, ha.

:lmao Who do you think I am exactly? ducks?

I'll make this clear and then I'm out, you have no idea who my main account is no one does. I never pmed you under this account or any other. Produce a screenshot of this so called PM that someone sent you. It would be good for entertainment value in any case.

[Booharv]

I still stand by posts and statistics don't always tell the whole story. Same player statistically doesn't mean they were the same player mentally and skillfully. Even lebron is trying to better understand the mental aspect of the game and playing smarter although he has proven he has not learned enough.

That's the best thing about intangibles they can't be measured so they can't be disproven.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Winning a ring is very often overrated. I have a thread in the works to explain my points better, it will be here one day soon. I have posted parts of it before.

For instance, many people's top 10 lists, in ring order are:

11 Rings: Bill Russell
6 Rings: Kareem
6 Rings: Jordan
5 Rings Magic
5 Rings Kobe
4 Rings: Duncan
4 Rings: Shaq
3 rings: Bird
2 Rings Chamberlain
2 rings: Hakeem

Having lived through most of the Russell era I can tell you Bill wasn't rated that high back then. After he retired and more players won multiple rings, his stock rose. Few people reaiize Boston won so many titles not because of Russell alone, but because that dynasty had 8 hall of famers and 4 players on the top 50 at 50 year list. They were more stacked against the NBA than any current or past team wishes it were. I can make a convincing argument Oscar Robertson is the second greatest guard to ever play the game, but few place him on top 10 anymore, he has one ring which came after Russell left. Jerry West and Elgin Baylor took a bunch of scrubs to many finals against Russell but could never beat them. Yet, they managed to take them to three 7 game series that went down to the final seconds. Think the Celtics vs. Bulls series of 2009 done over 3 times. Yet no one places West and Baylor on a top 10. One of the most amazing players ever was Dr. J, yet he has but one title and 3 finals losses. He did beat Bird's Celtics twice. Maybe if you switch Dr. J. and MJ's career and team timelines, we consider Erving the GOAT.

Bottom line is you need a team to win it a ring. Superstar mentality is you need multiple rings to be considered among the greatest. The fans seem to be buying the latter take, making it the deciding factor. What's really funny to me is when someone tries to devalue Kobe's rings because he had help, yet doesn't do the same to Russell who had even more help than Kobe could ever of dreamed of having.

Myself, I am not certain I place Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan in a top 10 NBA all time. Those are the current active ring winning leaders, right? As I said, I am still working on a thread about how to create a top 10 and I am down to a top 20, no order.

[Giuseppe]

:lmao Who do you think I am exactly? ducks?

I'll make this clear and then I'm out, you have no idea who my main account is no one does. I never pmed you under this account or any other. Produce a screenshot of this so called PM that someone sent you. It would be good for entertainment value in any case.

I got the PM, daddy-O and I ain't postin' it. I'm framin' it & havin' Katie-girl hang it over my jack-off station.

Gonna have the time of me life.

WOOT!

[Killakobe81]

I know I never said "that winning a title make you better" ....but I do think some good points were made about in this thread. The best (not the horry's or Fisher's) once they win one get a thirst for more.That is why once Lebron wins one if he is what we THINK he is ...then he will get more.
Now as for the best player debate, it all depends on what you are measuring. I know I already said that Lebron has the most dominant, statistical and athletic impact from game to game. I don't dispute that. who can? Where I argued with Jamstone and Harlem (and others) is more about the "torch". I didnt create the "torch". It has been talked about and debated long before I started watching ball. But all I know is when I started watching ball you could not be the "best" or carry it without one. Lately there seems to be Kobe fans (pre 2peat) and Lebron supporters that seem to want to let this slide ...I don't. The title stands as validation of that greatness, the best of the best. Lebron has been an amazing player during the regular season and at times in the playoffs. But as he has flamed out ...Delonte or not ...it changes the view for some. He needs to finish. That is what many old schoolfolks need for him to take that torch. Lebron has the MVP's for his statistical dominance, and PER titles. This is something less tangible, but even more critical, and Lebron knows this. MJ knew this, Kobe dies for it. Why do you think Lebron made the "decision." It is the PART OF IT I RESPECT the most ... he knows you NEED the ring. It's for Championship "cred". When you are an all-timer that ring puts you in an exclusive club.

The thing I find funny, many on here who crown Lebron as the best are some the same folks who mocked Dirk when people said he had surpassed Duncan (dirk's MVP year) how many LOL Dirk or Mavs threads did you "duncan fanbois" post? So Dirk cant be the best without a ring, but Lebron can? Hypocrites.

Not ringing and being the torch bearer, that's like dating a dime piece who is a cock tease. Yes it's great to parade her around, helps your ego that everyone thinks you have a fine piece of tail on your arm. When you enter a spot EVERYONE in that room is jealous. EXCEPT there is ONE guy in the corner who gives you a knowing smile. He just looks at you with a shit eating green. You know why? That prick has been to the promised land. He has tapped that ass, and you havent, and he KNOWS it. And until you have done the same he has something on you even though everyone else is riding your nuts. and the worst thing about it? You know it too ...

[Killakobe81]

Winning a ring is very often overrated. I have a thread in the works to explain my points better, it will be here one day soon. I have posted parts of it before.

For instance, many people's top 10 lists, in ring order are:

11 Rings: Bill Russell
6 Rings: Kareem
6 Rings: Jordan
5 Rings Magic
5 Rings Kobe
4 Rings: Duncan
4 Rings: Shaq
3 rings: Bird
2 Rings Chamberlain
2 rings: Hakeem

Having lived through most of the Russell era I can tell you Bill wasn't rated that high back then. After he retired and more players won multiple rings, his stock rose. Few people reaiize Boston won so many titles not because of Russell alone, but because that dynasty had 8 hall of famers and 4 players on the top 50 at 50 year list. They were more stacked against the NBA than any current or past team wishes it were. I can make a convincing argument Oscar Robertson is the second greatest guard to ever play the game, but few place him on top 10 anymore, he has one ring which came after Russell left. Jerry West and Elgin Baylor took a bunch of scrubs to many finals against Russell but could never beat them. Yet, they managed to take them to three 7 game series that went down to the final seconds. Think the Celtics vs. Bulls series of 2009 done over 3 times. Yet no one places West and Baylor on a top 10. One of the most amazing players ever was Dr. J, yet he has but one title and 3 finals losses. He did beat Bird's Celtics twice. Maybe if you switch Dr. J. and MJ's career and team timelines, we consider Erving the GOAT.

Bottom line is you need a team to win it a ring. Superstar mentality is you need multiple rings to be considered among the greatest. The fans seem to be buying the latter take, making it the deciding factor. What's really funny to me is when someone tries to devalue Kobe's rings because he had help, yet doesn't do the same to Russell who had even more help than Kobe could ever of dreamed of having.

Myself, I am not certain I place Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan in a top 10 NBA all time. Those are the current active ring winning leaders, right? As I said, I am still working on a thread about how to create a top 10 and I am down to a top 20, no order.

But see I don't agree. And i dont rate guys I haven't seen. Not that I dont appreciate History, (my major in college) but because I dont think you can make intelligent arguments for players you only have seen on NBA's greatest games or boxscores. You can appreciate their talent but how can you truly make a case without the context of watching the majority of the season and playoffs?

I started watching in 1980 so my best in order, with rings being a factor but not the only one (I think individual dominance and head to head matter a lot too):

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Moses (forgot to include him, him and Isiah are underrated)
10. Isiah (holding for Lebron)

[Koolaid_Man]

There's basically 2 lines of thought when it comes to rings...

1st line of thought is that you have multi-talented and faceted Mega-Stars that lead their team and who's by consensus considered the greatest of their A.) era, B.) position, or C.) All-time... these players usually have the numbers and championship pedigree to back them up. MJ, Magic, Bird, and Kobe,Kareem, Wilt, Shaq are in the category...

2nd line of thought is you have players that are good / decent that also wins titles or capable of it but not considered the consensus best of their era, position, or all-time. This is the category that Tim Duncan, Jerry West, Barkley, Oscar Robertson, etc falls into.

For as good as he was Duncan's never mentioned as arguably the greatest or even the best ever like Kobe is. Maybe limited only at his position and solely based on his rings. But most of us know that in their primes head to head Malone would have absolutely shredded the weaker Duncan. It's no coincidence that Malone (who is a documented pedophile) is the 2 greatest scorer in NBA history. I'd take a prime Malone over a prime Duncan any day of the week...Malone would impose his will on Duncan he'd make Duncan look like a Euro.

Also in my opinion winning rings in the old era when there was only 8 teams in the league renders them virtually meaningless...But rings just like home run records seem to be so called "hallowed"...therefore they still matter...just like winning the Olympic "ring" or gold medal in this case. If you don't win you don't get first dibs...In fact After Kobe won his fifth title Magic said on ESPN that Kobe deserves a statue next to his outside Staples Center. Later that night, Magic said that Kobe was now his equal, although not yet his superior.

"The great thing about the Lakers is that we judge by championships,'' said Magic, who -- along with Kareem, Kobe and crucial role player Derek Fisher -- has won a handful of rings with the Lakers. "So when Kobe gets that sixth one, then he'll be The Man; he'll be the greatest Laker. And I'll have no problem giving him that.''

So in order to respect the game like my NBA forefathers. I'm going with the opinion of MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Reggie Miller and that is that Kobe is currently the best player in the league. As far as where he ranks All-time. I'd say he's currently ranked 5th even with 5 rings.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird

But once he completes this 3 peat and gets his 6th then we have to reshuffle the deck and he automatically gets to be ranked 2nd behind MJ according to Magic...


MJ
Kobe
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

In my true honest assessment if Kobe finishes with 8 rings a two full ahead of MJ, numbers aside Kobe is by far greater than MJ but I think that's what it would take in the minds of the MJ lovers and the scary thing is another 3 titles is clearly within his reach.

Sad thing is with 4 rings Duncan still doesn't make top 10. Let me round out the top 15 as of today:

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe 5th
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Malone
Oscar Roberston
Barkley
Pippen
Jerry West
Duncan - 14th
Bill Russell - 15th

[Ace]

There's basically 2 lines of thought when it comes to rings...

1st line of thought is that you have multi-talented and faceted Mega-Stars that lead their team and who's by consensus considered the greatest of their A.) era, B.) position, or C.) All-time... these players usually have the numbers and championship pedigree to back them up. MJ, Magic, Bird, and Kobe,Kareem, Wilt, Shaq are in the category...

2nd line of thought is you have players that are good / decent that also wins titles or capable of it but not considered the consensus best of their era, position, or all-time. This is the category that Tim Duncan, Jerry West, Barkley, Oscar Robertson, etc falls into.

For as good as he was Duncan's never mentioned as arguably the greatest or even the best ever like Kobe is. Maybe limited only at his position and solely based on his rings. But most of us know that in their primes head to head Malone would have absolutely shredded the weaker Duncan. It's no coincidence that Malone (who is a documented pedophile) is the 2 greatest scorer in NBA history. I'd take a prime Malone over a prime Duncan any day of the week...Malone would impose his will on Duncan he'd make Duncan look like a Euro.

Also in my opinion winning rings in the old era when there was only 8 teams in the league renders them virtually meaningless...But rings just like home run records seem to be so called "hallowed"...therefore they still matter...just like winning the Olympic "ring" or gold medal in this case. If you don't win you don't get first dibs...In fact After Kobe won his fifth title Magic said on ESPN that Kobe deserves a statue next to his outside Staples Center. Later that night, Magic said that Kobe was now his equal, although not yet his superior.

"The great thing about the Lakers is that we judge by championships,'' said Magic, who -- along with Kareem, Kobe and crucial role player Derek Fisher -- has won a handful of rings with the Lakers. "So when Kobe gets that sixth one, then he'll be The Man; he'll be the greatest Laker. And I'll have no problem giving him that.''

So in order to respect the game like my NBA forefathers. I'm going with the opinion of MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Reggie Miller and that is that Kobe is currently the best player in the league. As far as where he ranks All-time. I'd say he's currently ranked 5th even with 5 rings.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird

But once he completes this 3 peat and gets his 6th then we have to reshuffle the deck and he automatically gets to be ranked 2nd behind MJ according to Magic...


MJ
Kobe
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

In my true honest assessment if Kobe finishes with 8 rings a two full ahead of MJ, numbers aside Kobe is by far greater than MJ but I think that's what it would take in the minds of the MJ lovers and the scary thing is another 3 titles is clearly within his reach.

Sad thing is with 4 rings Duncan still doesn't make top 10. Let me round out the top 15 as of today:

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe 5th
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Malone
Oscar Roberston
Barkley
Pippen
Jerry West
Duncan - 14th
Bill Russell - 15th

Finals MVP ( which actually counts)
How many does Kobe have in comparison to all the others you list?

[Years]

Jordan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan/Hakeem
Hakeem/Duncan
Kobe

[Years]

It didn't make Duncan any better. He kept giving the trophy right back.
But he kept on winning it as the best player on his team unlike Kobe so what's your point?:lol

http://incorrectbasketballknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/shaq-and-kobe1.jpg

[Koolaid_Man]

But he kept on winning it as the best player on his team unlike Kobe so what's your point?:lol

http://incorrectbasketballknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/shaq-and-kobe1.jpg


There's an ESPN article that covers this in greater detail but for now I pulled only the relevant conversation piece. I know this sucks for Spur fan but basically your title is considered a fluke unless you can repeat. Why do you think Boston is so desperate and adding a shit load of players...they will be a one hit wonder just like the Pistons. I will give the Spurs credit for wining more than one but it's still considered a fluke if you can't repeat. Sorry Timmy but 15 lbs ain't gonna cut the mustard :lol


Recent history will always remember the Lakers more fondly than the Spurs, hold Kobe Bryant in a higher regard than Tim Duncan and put Phil Jackson in a different class than Gregg Popovich.

It's not simply because the Lakers play near Hollywood and the Spurs play near the River Walk. It's because the Spurs were never able to repeat as champions. Since the late 1980s the true mark of a legendary team isn't just to win one title or a title every other season; it's to complete the back-to-back or the more elusive three-peat. - ESPN :toast

[Years]

Repeating titles mean nothing in the long run about how great a player was.

I don't really give a damn whether a player was able to win two titles back to back or with a year between them.

To call a championship a fluke because you didn't repeat is lol worthy to me.

Should Duncan's 03 title be considered more of a fluke then Hakeem's 94 title because Jordan retired?

Or is Hakeem's title less of a fluke because he repeated?


At the end of the day, Being able to win consistently over the course of a decade means more to me then repeating at only one part of the decade.

[Years]

I rank Shaq higher then Duncan all time because he was a better player, Not because he repeated.

[Koolaid_Man]

Repeating titles mean nothing in the long run about how great a player was.

I don't really give a damn whether a player was able to win two titles back to back or with a year between them.

To call a championship a fluke because you didn't repeat is lol worthy to me.

Should Duncan's 03 title be considered more of a fluke then Hakeem's 94 title because Jordan retired?

Or is Hakeem's title less of a fluke because he repeated?


At the end of the day, Being able to win consistently over the course of a decade means more to me then repeating at only one part of the decade.

You can slice this fucking sandwich 20 ways if you like..add all kinds of meats and veggies to it as well...add Mayo, Mustard, Wasabi, or whatever floats your boat or helps you find your lost remote. Fact still remains

Kobe 5> Duncan 4 and Kobe is still working while Timmy is done...what else you got homie. :lol

[Years]

You can slice this fucking sandwich 20 ways if you like..add all kinds of meats and veggies to it as well...add Mayo, Mustard, Wasabi, or whatever floats your boat or helps you find your lost remote. Fact still remains

Kobe 5> Duncan 4 and Kobe is still working while Timmy is done...what else you got homie. :lol

That's nice? I never said Kobe couldn't surpass Timmy all time.

In fact I never even implied it. I think he's very capable of it.

[BUMP]

:lol lakaluva

[Years]

Shut the fuck up you faggot. Utah has never tasted a title. You leave the title talk to US.

It's funny they never tasted it yet I know much more about past champions and championship teams and the players on them then you'll ever know in your lifetime cause I actually research this stuff and watch game tape.:lol

Your knowledge of past champions seems to only consist of a couple of words " They played in a weak era".

[Koolaid_Man]

It's funny they never tasted it yet I know much more about past champions and championship teams and the players on them then you'll ever know in your lifetime cause I actually research this stuff and watch game tape.:lol


nobody told you...we Laker fans are the Uber class...it's your job to research bitch now get to it...

We just sit back and sip the title champagne and roll up a fat smoke....:toast

Caviar style..

[Years]

nobody told you...we Laker fans are the Uber class...it's your job to research bitch now get to it...

We just sit back and sip the title champagne and roll up a fat smoke....:toast

Caviar style..

Were you making a point?

[Koolaid_Man]

Were you making a point?

Abso- Fucking - Lutely

rdPRnRI0r84 UTbOo-KLKSk

[Years]

Ws2yhBzJjis

What's your point? Are we just posting videos to show all the failures that happen with a team?

[Giuseppe]

To call a championship a fluke because you didn't repeat is lol worthy to me.

That's what they was fixin' to do just before we left Iverson where we found him.