Is Kobe a top 20 player of all time

[Darthkiller]

i say he isnt, no other top 20 player was a 2nd fiddle for the majority of his career. kobe only 1 mvp in a weak era, lol @ getting beat out by the likes of Nash and Dirk.

[Giuseppe]

Though Nash & Dirk are barren.

[LeHeat_Dynasty]

Kobe is right around Top 10 IMO. You have the obvious picks from 1-6 and after that, guys like Moses Malone, Duncan, Kobe and Olajuwon can claim the rest of those.


And I wouldn't used an MVP to validate his status among the all time greats. Kobe's career has been nothing short of amazing.

[sefant77]

Luckiest bitch of all time

[Giuseppe]

Lucky he shoveled to Artest instead of jacking it up.

To this day I have to q up the DVR and check assholes to make sure there was indeed a shovellin'.

[picc84]

You can make an argument. 5 titles as the 2nd most valuable player on the team, 1 mvp award, 2 scoring titles.

Comparing to Scottie Pippen, who won 6 titles as the 2nd most valuable player on a team.

Kobe has more individual accolades (regular season mvp, scoring titles), but Pippen led his team out of the first round as the team most productive player ('94) and has one more title as the 2nd guy.

Depends on what you value more - team achievements (Pippen), or individual ones (Kobe).

If you place Scottie in the top 20, Kobe should be +/- a few spots depending on your perspective.

[Darthkiller]

pippen isnt a top 20 player of all time either, dude was a 2nd fiddle for all but 1 year of his career.

[BRHornet45]

Luckiest bitch of all time

Son that completely sums up Kobe's career ... luck

From the time he was a 18 year old rookie up until now at 31 years old he has been surrounded by stacked teams full of all stars and hall of famers. He has been blessed by the league and rewarded with thousands of bogus, free points at the free throw line. The media and NBA gets very desperate every few years for new superstars to help sell tickets and merchandise. Instead of just allowing stars to create themselves the NBA will step in and help boost certain chosen players to the top and Kobe is the best example of this. He hasn't deserved the majority of awards and honors that he has been handed on a silver platter over the years, but the league needs a trendy name to help sell the game.

Kobe is far from being a top 20 player and anyone who truly believes that he is should really take a step back, look at the facts, put the kool aid down, and educate themselves on the game of basketball. Realistically Kobe is probably somewhere between #45-55 best players of all time. There is no question that he is arguably one of the best ROLE players of all time, but ranking him any higher than maybe 35-40th is just downright stupid and laughable. Don't buy into everything that the NBA and ESPN try to force down your throat. Its all about making money and Kobe is extremely marketable.

[ButtHurt Committee]

i say he isnt, no other top 20 player was a 2nd fiddle for the majority of his career. kobe only 1 mvp in a weak era, lol @ getting beat out by the likes of Nash and Dirk.

You application is being processed.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I have made a top 20 list (no order) from the NBA's top 50 players at 50 years, and it wasn't easy. I haven't included any players who deserve consideration after that list was made like Kobe and Duncan. So, top 64 at 64 years, they get in most certainly. Are they top 20 in my opinion yet? I don't know, I need to get back to work and see if they eliminate anyone. I do know I took Bill Russell out of the top 20, he is vastly overrated. When I get back to work on it I'll share, plus show how I got to where I did.

[MiamiHeat]

kobe's career is a glaring example of how important it is to play for the right organization.

Kobe's refusal to play for the Hornets, the team that drafted him, was the smartest move he ever made for his career.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Kobe's refusal to play for the Hornets, the team that drafted him, was the smartest move he ever made for his career.

Hey numbskull, I handed you your ass on that already. See my profile comments for link.

cliffs:
Wednesday June 26, 1996 Kobe drafted by Charlotte in prearranged trade for Vlade Divac.
Friday June 28, 1996: Divac threatens to retire rather than agree to trade.
Monday July 1, 1996. Divac agrees to trade.

Why on earth would Charlotte draft a player that refused to work out for them unless the pick was made to complete a trade?

Bye bitch.

[rickross]

imo more important players when is all said n done(no particular order):

black jesus
kareem
wilt
shaq
hakeem
wade
pippen
russell
larry
bron
magic
moses malone
john stockton
big o
karl malone
clyde glyde
chuck fatass
ewing
dr j
timmy


yea .. maybe top 20.

[Xylus]

Kobe Bryant is more important to the game of basketball than Wade, Ewing, and Drexler. He was second fiddle early in his career, but he's matured into the best player in the game. Top 20, easy.

[IronMexican]

Troll thread.

[Cry Havoc]

A better question is, "Is Kobe a top 10 player?"

He's clearly top 20.

[namlook]

LOL at this troll thread.

[Jelloisjigglin]

Son that completely sums up Kobe's career ... luck

From the time he was a 18 year old rookie up until now at 31 years old he has been surrounded by stacked teams full of all stars and hall of famers. He has been blessed by the league and rewarded with thousands of bogus, free points at the free throw line. The media and NBA gets very desperate every few years for new superstars to help sell tickets and merchandise. Instead of just allowing stars to create themselves the NBA will step in and help boost certain chosen players to the top and Kobe is the best example of this. He hasn't deserved the majority of awards and honors that he has been handed on a silver platter over the years, but the league needs a trendy name to help sell the game.

Kobe is far from being a top 20 player and anyone who truly believes that he is should really take a step back, look at the facts, put the kool aid down, and educate themselves on the game of basketball. Realistically Kobe is probably somewhere between #45-55 best players of all time. There is no question that he is arguably one of the best ROLE players of all time, but ranking him any higher than maybe 35-40th is just downright stupid and laughable. Don't buy into everything that the NBA and ESPN try to force down your throat. Its all about making money and Kobe is extremely marketable.

:lol There's no way you can believe this. Stats and accomplishments don't lie. He's up there with the all time greats whether some hater likes it or not.

Funny tho. :toast

[JamStone]

Lol a lot of troll threads... good thing the NBA season isn't too far from now.

I'll answer the question though. I think Kobe as of today, right now, is probably on the cusp of the top 10. He's certainly top 20 imo. I think what would really help his cause is another League MVP, but it might not be realistic for Kobe to get a League MVP anymore. LeBron going to Miami actually does help for the upcoming season though because LeBron might not put up the crazy numbers next season due to sharing the scoring load and also what might end up being fewer minutes per game. So if Kobe really wants to get one more League MVP (which I'm not sure if it's really that important to him), he could go balls out next season to try and win one more.

Kobe has established his legacy. He's a back-to-back champion and Finals MVP and regardless if you think Gasol was the key to winning, Kobe was still the top dog of the last two Laker title teams. I can accept the argument that Gasol was more important to winning, but Gasol was still the second banana. And Kobe was still the undisputed leader and go-to guy. So for all the critics, even if you don't want to give credit to Kobe for any of the titles with Shaq, he still gets credit for the last two championships as the best player on the team. Gasol was critical to them winning. But it's still Kobe's team.

I have Michael, Wilt, Magic, Kareem, and Bird definitely ahead of him. Then you have guys like Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Moses Malone, Russell, and Oscar that I'd group Kobe in with and depending what factors you value more, you could argue the order of those guys. So depending how you do that, for me, Kobe is roughly around the top 10 or right on the cusp.

[21_Blessings]

A better question is, "Is Kobe a top 5 player?"

He's clearly top 10.

Fixed.

If you don't have Kobe in the top 10 you're retarded. Simple as that.

[DAF86]

Troll thread.

Why? Kobe beign a top 20 player of all time is definitely arguable.

[Purch]

Yes.

[JamStone]

Why? Kobe beign a top 20 player of all time is definitely arguable.

It's about as arguable as Duncan or Shaq being a top 20 player all time. All three are certainly top 20. Only a serious hater would say it's arguable for Kobe.

Now if it's a question of whether Kobe is top 10, that is certainly arguable. Arguing top 20 is a pretty laughable topic.

[sefant77]

You just win rings if you are in great teams.

Kobe had this luck. First he got paired up with Shaq and later with Gasol/Artest/Bynum/Odom.

Between this he was piling up stats, missing playoffs, ripping his team mates and demanding a trade.

So of course one of the best players. But also one of the most lucky ones with being in a great deep team with true consistent support through the majority of his career.

Just imagine the Lakers trading Kwame and Bynum for JO. Kobes legacy would be 3 rings as 2nd banana to prime Shaq.

[BRHornet45]

:lol There's no way you can believe this. Stats and accomplishments don't lie. He's up there with the all time greats whether some hater likes it or not.

Funny tho. :toast

stats and accomplishments? oh you must mean these ...

http://i56.tinypic.com/2ik5rw8.jpg

[Koolaid_Man]

i say he isnt, no other top 20 player was a 2nd fiddle for the majority of his career. kobe only 1 mvp in a weak era, lol @ getting beat out by the likes of Nash and Dirk.

The one hit wonder Detroit fan club strikes again...:lol


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/wilttoKobe-1.jpg

[Purch]

ok.


Shaq was more dominant then half the players you listed so I don't see where you're going with this

[Ashy Larry]

Troll thread.

just the dumbass line "he has one mvp in weak era" should let you know about this thread..... if that's the case, Shaquille is only top twenty. He has only one MVP in this era. And it is a crime that Shaquille only has one.

[Killakobe81]

Son that completely sums up Kobe's career ... luck

From the time he was a 18 year old rookie up until now at 31 years old he has been surrounded by stacked teams full of all stars and hall of famers. He has been blessed by the league and rewarded with thousands of bogus, free points at the free throw line. The media and NBA gets very desperate every few years for new superstars to help sell tickets and merchandise. Instead of just allowing stars to create themselves the NBA will step in and help boost certain chosen players to the top and Kobe is the best example of this. He hasn't deserved the majority of awards and honors that he has been handed on a silver platter over the years, but the league needs a trendy name to help sell the game.

Kobe is far from being a top 20 player and anyone who truly believes that he is should really take a step back, look at the facts, put the kool aid down, and educate themselves on the game of basketball. Realistically Kobe is probably somewhere between #45-55 best players of all time. There is no question that he is arguably one of the best ROLE players of all time, but ranking him any higher than maybe 35-40th is just downright stupid and laughable. Don't buy into everything that the NBA and ESPN try to force down your throat. Its all about making money and Kobe is extremely marketable.

yes, the athlete with the 5th worst Q rating is very marketable ...that Colorado thing was a figment of everyone's imagination as well.

[ezau]

I'm not hating or anything, but Kobe's lack of individual awards puts him outside of the Top of All-Time. Also, him being Shaq's Robin will always come out in the discussion no matter what.

Still a hell of a player, but anybody knows how he has become overrated over the years. :toast

[Giuseppe]

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Take it, & like it.

[JamStone]

I'm not hating or anything, but Kobe's lack of individual awards puts him outside of the Top of All-Time. Also, him being Shaq's Robin will always come out in the discussion no matter what.

Still a hell of a player, but anybody knows how he has become overrated over the years. :toast

Lack of individual awards?

1 MVP
2 Finals MVP
12 all star appearances (3 ASG MVP)
8 first team NBA, 2 second team NBA, 2 third team NBA
8 first team all defense, 2 second team all defense
2 scoring titles

Lack of individual awards compared to whom? Michael, Magic, Kareem, and Bird? Well, yeah. But there aren't that many players in NBA history that can match Kobe's resume as an individual player.

There are only 12 other players (edit: 11 players but there was no Finals MVP award when Bill Russell was winning titles so I'll count him as one even though he doesn't officially have one) that have both a League MVP and a Finals MVP. If you're talking about Kobe breaking into the top 5, I can understand his lack of multiple League MVPs could give some people pause. But if you're talking about keeping Kobe out of the top all time, what is the top? Top 10? Top 20? Because Kobe's certainly in the top 20 and is arguably in the top 10, at least in the conversation.

[Chieflion]

Lack of individual awards?

1 MVP
2 Finals MVP
12 all star appearances (3 ASG MVP)
8 first team NBA, 2 second team NBA, 2 third team NBA
8 first team all defense, 2 second team all defense
2 scoring titles

Lack of individual awards compared to whom? Michael, Magic, Kareem, and Bird? Well, yeah. But there aren't that many players in NBA history that can match Kobe's resume as an individual player.

There are only 11 other players that have both a League MVP and a Finals MVP. If you're talking about Kobe breaking into the top 5, I can understand his lack of multiple League MVPs could give some people pause. But if you're talking about keeping Kobe out of the top all time, what is the top? Top 10? Top 20? Because Kobe's certainly in the top 20 and is arguably in the top 10, at least in the conversation.
Well, to me Kobe Bryant is in the top 10, and I do use both league MVPs and final MVPs as part of the criteria and those who have both awards rank higher on my lists. For players like Russell, I would assume he would have has a finals MVP (hey, he has that award named after him and he has 5 league MVPs.)

These players include the likes of the following, not in order, and of course players who have both awards in multiples, I tend to rank them higher, of course it is not a deciding factor, considering peak play and longevity and era. The following is not in order and the list comes whenever the name pops into my mind.

1. Michael Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 finals MVPs)
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs)
3. Larry Bird (3 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs)
4. Magic Johnson (3 MVPs, 3 finals MVPs)
5. Tim Duncan (2 MVPs, 3 finals MVPs)
6. Bill Russell (5 MVPs, finals MVP was not given in his era)
7. Wit Chamberlain (4 MVPs, 1 finals MVP, with another not given in 1967 because of era)
8. George Mikan (This is weird, you got to remember that in his era, MVPs and finals MVPs were both non-existent in that era, he was a 5 time all-NBA first team and he should have a couple of MVPs and finals MVPs had there been those existing)

8. Hakeem Olajuwon (1 MVP, 2 finals MVPs)
9. Moses Malone (1 MVP, 3 finals MVPs)
10. Bob Pettit (2 MVPs, finals MVP not in his era but should have one in 58)
11. Shaquille O'Neal (1 MVP, 3 finals MVPs)
12. Kobe Bryant (1 MVP, 2 finals MVPs)
13. Bill Walton (1 MVP, 1 finals MVPs
14. Willis Reed (1 MVP, 1 finals MVP)
15. Wes Unseld (1 MVP, 1 finals MVP)

After these top 15, I got question marks.

16. Bob Cousy (1 MVP, finals MVP not given in era, would he have a couple, I think maybe.)
17. Julius Erving (Would you count his career in the ABA if you were doing all-time rankings? If you would, The Doc would rank way higher on this list. 1 NBA MVP, 3 ABA MVPs, 2 playoff ABA MVPs)

These 17 players are the only prestigious players to have both awards (by my count). Not that they are my top 17.

[JamStone]

I edited my post to include Bill Russell. I missed Wes Unseld.

Didn't include guys like Cousy (no guarantee he'd have won a Finals MVP over Russell on any of those Celtics teams), George Mikan (who certainly has an argument), or Julius Erving (I wouldn't be against adding him to the list).

The only guy I'd certainly add on the list is Wes Unseld. I just missed him.

[TheMACHINE]

is the butthurt commitee still reviewing the application?

[Giuseppe]

^They're still trying to figure how to reverse #15 & #16.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I am trying to make a top 10 but am stuck on a top 20. My source is the Top NBA players at 50 years. I include this list, sorted by the years the players came into the league, and it appears at bottom of my post.

Back in the 1970's a top 10 list was pretty easy. Bob Pettit and Hal Greer made it easily, now they have fallen way back.

After trying several methods to sort through the list, I found a method that worked for me. First, I took the inital 20 players on the list. Then I looked at who appeared next and if I felt they were better than anyone above them, I made a replacement. The farther I went along, the tougher it became.

I haven't done anything beyond that list. Clearly, Tim and Kobe deserve consideration, but what about other players? James and Wade are too new IMO. Garnett? Nowitski? The NBA needs to update that list.

Top 50 NBA players at 50 years, sorted by entrance into pro basketball:

1-20
George Mikan 1948-49
Dolph Schayes 1949-50
Paul Arizin 1950-51
Bob Cousy 1950-51
Bill Sharman 1950-51
Bob Pettit 1954-55
Bill Russell 1956-57
Sam Jones 1957-58
Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Hal Greer 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
Lenny Wilkens 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Dave DeBusschere 1962-63
Jerry Lucas 1963-64
Nate Thurmond 1963-64
Willis Reed 1964-65
Rick Barry 1965-66

21-50
Billy Cunningham 1965-66
Dave Bing 1966-67
Walt Frazier 1967-68
Earl Monroe 1967-68
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Wes Unseld 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70
Nate Archibald 1970-71
Dave Cowens 1970-71
Pete Maravich 1970-71
Julius Erving 1971-72
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Bill Walton 1975-76
Robert Parish 1976-77
Larry Bird 1979-80
Magic Johnson 1979-80
Kevin McHale 1980-81
Isiah Thomas 1981-82
James Worthy 1982-83
Clyde Drexler 1983-84
Michael Jordan 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Charles Barkley 1984=85
John Stockton 1984-85
Patrick Ewing 1985-86
Karl Malone 1985-86
Scottie Pippen 1987-88
David Robinson 1989-90
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93

[Chieflion]

I edited my post to include Bill Russell. I missed Wes Unseld.

Didn't include guys like Cousy (no guarantee he'd have won a Finals MVP over Russell on any of those Celtics teams), George Mikan (who certainly has an argument), or Julius Erving (I wouldn't be against adding him to the list).

The only guy I'd certainly add on the list is Wes Unseld. I just missed him.

I got an argument for Bob Cousy in 1957 which was also Bill Russell's rookie year, the year when Cousy won the 1957 MVP, so he was arguably the best player in the league. Although they did give the MVP and finals MVP to rookies in the NBA before, should Russell have gotten it over Cousy? I don't think so.

In the playoffs, Cousy averaged 20.2 points, 6.1 rebounds and 9.3 assists on 32.4% shooting in 44 minutes. Nowadays, when we take a look at that shitty FG%, we say this guy is inefficient, he sucks, why the hell is he shooting so much? In that era, from what I have read, guards rarely, if not never step into the paint. The 6.1 rebounds obviously came from a lot of misses from both sides, but still quite impressive nonetheless considering that guards rarely step into the paint.

Not only that, assists in the past were difficult to get. If you dribbled the ball and passed the ball, and the guy scored, no assist, which was quoted from Heinsohn. In an era where everyone's efficiency, or lack of was so evident with no 3 point shot as spacing and with big men like Russell with horrendous shooting efficiency, Cousy managed to get 9.3 assists in the playoffs, which would be well ahead of anyone in his era by more than 25%. This percentage would have surpassed the likes of John Stockton. Relative to era, Cousy was perhaps the greatest assist man to ever play in the NBA.

Bill Russell scored 13.9 points, 24.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists on 36.5% shooting in 40.9 minutes in the 1957 playoffs. The argument against Russell would be that he didn't score enough and did it on fairly poor efficiency (in that era) for a big man who plays close to the rim. His defensive impact would have made up for it though. Cousy didn't win until Russell joined the Celtics, which was a major point. Was Russell's rebounding numbers inflated due to poor shooting and increasing pace after the dead ball era? Probably, but the numbers would still be ridiculous. Russell had 3.2 assists, which was also good for a big man.

Would Cousy have deserved the finals MVP over Russell if there was one that year? For that year, he certainly had every reason and argument over Bill Russell, considering that he was league MVP, meaning he was the most valuable player on his team in 1957 and was the offensive mastermind of the Celtics, while Russell was the defensive anchor. I would lean towards Cousy for 1957, the rest of the glory and trophies would belong to Russell during later years.

[HarlemHeat37]

Yes, Kobe is definitely a top 10 player of all-time..he's on the same tier as Shaq, Duncan and Olajuwon..

[21_Blessings]

Kobe has already surpassed Shaq/Duncan's tier and he's only 32.

Sorry :cry

[HarlemHeat37]

Prove it, present your argument..

[Ghazi]

:bking

[ohmwrecker]

Troll thread.

I thought these were all troll threads.

[Ghazi]

Prove it, present your argument..

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt2:

[picc84]

How can he be when all of his rings have come with an all-star bigman?

When he can win by himself like the all-time greats did, he'll get the respect and recognition that comes with that. Until then...

[IronMexican]

I thought these were all troll threads.

Pretty much at this point. What's it's mostly been for the entire year.


Grey and over 2k? Rough, bro.

[21_Blessings]

Why would I need to prove a...fact?

[ohmwrecker]

Pretty much at this point. What's it's mostly been for the entire year.


Grey and over 2k? Rough, bro.

I'm representin' because the Spurs colors are black & grey (according to Kori).

[Ghazi]

crucify em 21, send that Heat bandwagoning ass to the tree of woe

[IronMexican]

So because Ghazi hates the Heat, he's a Laker bandwagoner? sucks.

[Venti Quattro]

So because Ghazi hates the Heat, he's a Laker bandwagoner? sucks.

Maybe he was born before 1985 outside SoCal. In that case, he's a real Lakers fan and not a bandwagon fan. :tu :tu

[ezau]

Lack of individual awards?

1 MVP
2 Finals MVP
12 all star appearances (3 ASG MVP)
8 first team NBA, 2 second team NBA, 2 third team NBA
8 first team all defense, 2 second team all defense
2 scoring titles

Lack of individual awards compared to whom? Michael, Magic, Kareem, and Bird? Well, yeah. But there aren't that many players in NBA history that can match Kobe's resume as an individual player.

There are only 12 other players (edit: 11 players but there was no Finals MVP award when Bill Russell was winning titles so I'll count him as one even though he doesn't officially have one) that have both a League MVP and a Finals MVP. If you're talking about Kobe breaking into the top 5, I can understand his lack of multiple League MVPs could give some people pause. But if you're talking about keeping Kobe out of the top all time, what is the top? Top 10? Top 20? Because Kobe's certainly in the top 20 and is arguably in the top 10, at least in the conversation.

shut the fuck up you Kobe apologist

[Cry Havoc]

:lol @ Kobe being top 5 or over Duncan at this point in his career. :lol

:lol Lakers fans yet again showing they care more about a single player than the team.

[Giuseppe]

I smell skunk.

[Gutter92]

I smell a sidekick. Oh, its Kobe.

LMAO "im tired of being his sidekick"

:lol

[SomeCallMeTim]

kobe's career is a glaring example of how important it is to play for the right organization.

Kobe's refusal to play for the Hornets, the team that drafted him, was the smartest move he ever made for his career.

Smart is right. Kobe's no dummy. That was a brilliant move, considering the Hornets' lousy ownership, playing in 2nd-fiddle markets, and uneven management.

Anyone in a position to choose the company in which he'll build his career would do the same thing if at all possible.

[lefty]

No.

Couldnt win withoht Shaq and Pau

Cant win without Stern.