Let's see your top 20 all time NBA players

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

IMO a top 10 is too tough ro construct. It used to be easy some 20-30 years ago. Also, I see a lot of duplications in top 10 lists, (Kobe sticky, recent page) so I am curious what everyone's 20 list would be.

Here's a post I made listing the NBA top 50 players at 50 years in league entry order, and how I created my list.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4646347#post4646347

Here's my top 20, no order yet. Asterisks * designate certain top 10.

Edit October 5, 1:34 PM. There are reasons why Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, and Bill Russell are omitted from "my" list. Read the thread and you will see why. I had to post this edit because many are commenting about their omission and not reading the thread, thanks.

Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60 *
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Jerry Lucas 1963-64
Willis Reed 1964-65
Walt Frazier 1967-68
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70 *
Julius Erving 1971-72
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Larry Bird 1979-80 *
Magic Johnson 1979-80 *
Michael Jordan 1984-85 *
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Patrick Ewing 1985-86
Karl Malone 1985-86
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93

I deliberately omitted Bill Russell. You guys have him overrated IMO. He wasn't viewed as top of the line material way back when he played, the other superstars of his era were viewed more kindly. Besides, he had stacked teams, loaded with 8 other hall of famers including 4 on the Top 50 NBA at 50 list. Lebron and Kobe could only wish they had as stacked a team as Russell did.

I didn't include Tim or Kobe because the NBA list needs updating. I could replace Hayes and Frazier with Tim and Kobe because I feel they are top 20 material and I believe better than those two players. Top 10? Hard for me to say, maybe not for you. I am also not certain if I would place Hakeem or Shaq in a final top 10, but that's me.

Ok, let's see your lists! Thanks.

[namlook]

I deliberately omitted Bill Russell. You guys have him overrated IMO. He wasn't viewed as top of the line material way back when he played...

LOL.

NBA MVP (1958, '61, '62, '63, '65)

If a guy with Five MVPs and 11 rings isn't top 20 then this thread should be closed down.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

LOL.

NBA MVP (1958, '61, '62, '63, '65)

If a guy with Five MVPs and 11 rings isn't top 20 then this thread should be closed down.

It's my opinion, what's yours? As I said, I did it for a reason. Do all the guys below belong on a top 20 with all those rings? Russell had help, and plenty of it.

Most NBA Championships Won
Minimum one game played in playoffs.

Rank Player Team(s) First Last Count
1 Bill Russell* BOS 1957 1969 11
2 Sam Jones* BOS 1959 1969 10
3 John Havlicek* BOS 1963 1976 8
Tom Heinsohn* BOS 1957 1965 8
K.C. Jones* BOS 1959 1966 8
Tom Sanders BOS 1961 1969 8
7 Robert Horry HOU/LAL/SAS 1994 2007 7
Frank Ramsey* BOS 1957 1964 7

[Dex]

Automatic fail for omitting Tim Duncan, yet including Karl Malone.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Automatic fail for omitting Tim Duncan, yet including Karl Malone.

Did you read the post carefully? I stopped with the NBA top 50 at 50 years because that list needs updating. I accounted for Tim and Kobe's inclusion if I consider them and only them for the players not yet on the badly needed updated list.

[JamStone]

I know you acknowledge not including them, but I'm not sure why you didn't include Duncan and Kobe as even if they retired today, I'd put both easily in the top 20.

Roughly in order, although on any given day I might change a couple of the rankings...

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7a. Tim Duncan - still haven't decided between these two, greater dominance v. consistency
7b. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Bill Russell - I don't rank him as highly as some but I can't leave him off completely
10. Kobe Bryant - has the chance to move up several spots
11. Oscar Robertson - there was a time recently I had him much higher, I've recently changed my opinion
12. Moses Malone
13a. Kevin Garnett - still debate somewhat between the two
13b. Charles Barkley
15. Karl Malone
16. Willis Reed
17. John Havlicek
18. Isiah Thomas - homer in me, he's borderline 20
19. Jerry West
20. Julius Erving

Just missed: Elgin Baylor and Clyde Frazier

I was also tempted to include LeBron. He probably already cracks the top 20, but I'll wait until he finishes 10 full seasons.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I know you acknowledge not including them, but I'm not sure why you didn't include Duncan and Kobe as even if they retired today, I'd put both easily in the top 20.



I didn't include them in my top 20 because I stopped at the end of the top 50 NBA players at 50 years list. This was a huge effort for me because I saw most of the top 50 play. Also, in fairness, I don't want to have expend the effort to rank KG, Dirk, and others including LeBron and Wade who certainly are top 20 material candidates. My other concern is the duplication I see here in other lists, so everyone's 11-20 has me curious. Russell probably is top 20, I took him out only to make a point.

Thanks for your list!

[JamStone]

I'd like to hear your argument for guys like Patrick Ewing, George Gervin, and Elvin Hayes over Isiah. Isiah is borderline top 20, but I think wherever you put him, he belongs ahead of those three.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I'd like to hear your argument for guys like Patrick Ewing, George Gervin, and Elvin Hayes over Isiah. Isiah is borderline top 20, but I think wherever you put him, he belongs ahead of those three.

Well, it's hard to compare players as I said, this list took awhile and I wanted to make a few more threads to precede it. Also, comparing centers to guards is tough.

Ok, to answer your question. If you compare Hakeem to Ewing, stats are close. If Knicks win in 1994, maybe Hakeem's stock drops. Maybe Ewing's stock rises. Ewing just got stuck with the crummy Knicks. Also, Bird, Magic, Isiaih and co., Malone, Barkley, and MJ were his other rivals both on court and and on a top list. I added Gervin and Hayes because of their offensive stats. Like Karl Malone's, they have to be worth something. You can see where this is going though. a top 20 will be hard in 10 years. A lot of top 10 players from 30 years ago have fallen off. So will some current players on people's top 10 lists

[Purch]

I was gonna respond but then I realized what you wrote about Russell then I just started shaking my head.

[Purch]

He wasn't viewed as top of the line material way back when he played
Do you know how many quotes you can find from players and coaches from the era that makes this statement completely invalid?

[lefty]

OP

Some of the guys in your list also played with stacked teams



Teams that stacked !!!!!!

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I was gonna respond but then I realized what you wrote about Russell then I just started shaking my head.
Hey, this is my opinion, I am just soliciting yours. Give it if you want.

Do you know how many quotes you can find from players and coaches from the era that makes this statement completely invalid?
I was around back then. Were you? A sample top 10 list in 1970 might look like this:

1) Wilt
2) Robertson
3) Baylor
4) West
5) Pettet
6) Cousy
7) Greer
8) Mikan
9) Russell
10 Bellamy

In that era, offense was looked on as a BIG deal, at least by the reporters. Boston had defense figured out, but most didn't. Russell's stock rose after he left the game. I am trying to make a point, and that is you see his 11 rings, call him the leader, and rank him way too high. Ben Wallace could have dominated as Bill did just as easily. Who replaces Bird or Magic past or present? No one.


OP

Some of the guys in your list also played with stacked teams



Teams that stacked !!!!!!
Yep, and a lot of players with 0 or 1 ring. They ran into stacked teams. Love your gif of Sasha flopping!

[Latarian Milton]

In all honesty Russell is regarded better today than he was back when he played. A big part of that is race. Playing in a racist city like Boston hurt his reputation because the Celtic fans wouldn't admit he was their best player.

he should have played for Miami in all honesty.

[Purch]

Top 6

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Magic

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

In all honesty Russell is regarded better today than he was back when he played. A big part of that is race. Playing in a racist city like Boston hurt his reputation because the Celtic fans wouldn't admit he was their best player.

Thanks, another vote from someone who is from my generation. We saw these guys play and followed the NBA back then. That counts for something!

[JamStone]

Well, it's hard to compare players as I said, this list took awhile and I wanted to make a few more threads to precede it. Also, comparing centers to guards is tough.

Ok, to answer your question. If you compare Hakeem to Ewing, stats are close. If Knicks win in 1994, maybe Hakeem's stock drops. Maybe Ewing's stock rises. Ewing just got stuck with the crummy Knicks. Also, Bird, Magic, Isiaih and co., Malone, Barkley, and MJ were his other rivals both on court and and on a top list. I added Gervin and Hayes because of their offensive stats. Like Karl Malone's, they have to be worth something. You can see where this is going though. a top 20 will be hard in 10 years. A lot of top 10 players from 30 years ago have fallen off. So will some current players on people's top 10 lists

I don't know. You're making judgment calls on things that didn't happen. "If" Ewing won in 1994. He didn't. And then you mention how he had to compete with the likes of Bird, Magic, Michael, Barkley, Malone, and Isiah. Exactly. Isiah led a team to back-to-back titles against the likes of Magic, Bird, and Michael.

Gervin's a tough call. You can't forsake winning, and winning it all, and winning it all multiple times. Sure, championships are a team accomplishment, but if we don't take them into consideration, then Wilt was better than Jordan or Barkley better than Magic. Your opinion is your opinion, but I don't quite buy it. Saying "offensive stats" have to count for something could very well mean Dirk should go down as greater than Tim Duncan, and think how silly that sounds. And if they get in because "offensive stats" you should drop someone from your top 20 for Bob Pettit.

As for Hayes, he wasn't that offensively prolific beyond his first couple seasons, especially considering the era he played in and his size and athleticism. Plus, he was a big man who shot 45% from the field for his career. Offensively, while he was a really great player, does his "offensive stats" really stand out among the greats of the greats?

[Koolaid_Man]

Top 6

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Magic

No white man should ever get the nod over Kobe... Period :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

brah kobe IS white as fuck that whiteboy grew up in italy and act just like a cracker not to mention he got them gay ass feminine euro qualities..

lol true, nothing funnier than Lakerfan acting like Kobe is some kind of hood black guy. He and Lebron are giant oreos.

[Koolaid_Man]

brah kobe IS white as fuck that whiteboy grew up in italy and act just like a cracker not to mention he got them gay ass feminine euro qualities..


first off I'm not your brah...I'm your uncle and you're my nephew...:lol

Where the big homie grew up is irrelevant...now what counts is where he's committing these atrocious acts of male rape...in front of camera's and thousands of people each year....:lobt2:

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I don't know. You're making judgment calls on things that didn't happen. "If" Ewing won in 1994. He didn't. And then you mention how he had to compete with the likes of Bird, Magic, Michael, Barkley, Malone, and Isiah. Exactly. Isiah led a team to back-to-back titles against the likes of Magic, Bird, and Michael.

Gervin's a tough call. You can't forsake winning, and winning it all, and winning it all multiple times. Sure, championships are a team accomplishment, but if we don't take them into consideration, then Wilt was better than Jordan or Barkley better than Magic. Your opinion is your opinion, but I don't quite buy it. Saying "offensive stats" have to count for something could very well mean Dirk should go down as greater than Tim Duncan, and think how silly that sounds. And if they get in because "offensive stats" you should drop someone from your top 20 for Bob Pettit.

As for Hayes, he wasn't that offensively prolific beyond his first couple seasons, especially considering the era he played in and his size and athleticism. Plus, he was a big man who shot 45% from the field for his career. Offensively, while he was a really great player, does his "offensive stats" really stand out among the greats of the greats?

Yeah, well, it still is my list. I left Stockton out, look at his offense, at least in assists. Drexler was an offensive beast I omitted. Barkley was a tough cut. Dominique Wilkins had offense but he didn't make the top 50 list. Wes Unseld deserves consideration. I don't want to try to rank anyone not on the top 50 at 50 list, but do so after the list because I know many here want to put Tim and maybe Kobe on their top 10. I want to see that NBA top 50 at 50 updated. I trust that, not random top 10 lists by posters on sports boards.

See my point here is to see who people place 11-20, because I see more or less the same top 10 list from everyone. If people put Ewing on it, then they think as I do. If they don't, they don't. I see Connie Hawkins on Philadelphia Chamberlain's list. He was a phenominal player, but not on the NBA top 50 at 50. That's ok, it's his list.

I have no problem people put recent players like LeBron or Wade on a top 20. They are headed into that domain. And they will bump someone off, but who?

[JamStone]

Yeah, well, it still is my list. I left Stockton out, look at his offense, at least in assists. Drexler was an offensive beast I omitted. Barkley was a tough cut. Dominique Wilkins had offense but he didn't make the top 50 list. Wes Unseld deserves consideration. I don't want to try to rank anyone not on the top 50 at 50 list, but do so after the list because I know many here want to put Tim and maybe Kobe on their top 10. I want to see that NBA top 50 at 50 updated. I trust that, not random top 10 lists by posters on sports boards.

See my point here is to see who people place 11-20, because I see more or less the same top 10 list from everyone. If people put Ewing on it, then they think as I do. If they don't, they don't. I see Connie Hawkins on Philadelphia Chamberlain's list. He was a phenominal player, but not on the NBA top 50 at 50. That's ok, it's his list.

I have no problem people put recent players like LeBron or Wade on a top 20. They are headed into that domain. And they will bump someone off, but who?

But that's precisely why your reasoning was contradictory. If guys like Gervin and Hayes made your list because "their offense had to count for something," you could use that same argument for guys like Pettit or Barkley or Drexler. Why in their cases did their "offensive stats" not count for something or were not worth something? See where I'm going with that?

If that's your argument, use for other players who similarly had prolific offensive stats. If not, then that's not the reason why you included Hayes and Gervin in your top 20. So what is the real reason? That's all I'm asking. I'm not asking you to change your opinion. I'm asking you the reason. If that's your reason, it just seems like poor logic, seeing how you left out guys like Barkley and Pettit.

[lefty]

Yep, and a lot of players with 0 or 1 ring. They ran into stacked teams. Love your gif of Sasha flopping!
Thanks

[jacobdrj]

I will only comment on the players I have seen play... Meaning since the 1996 NBA Finals...

Karl Malone
Michael Jordan
Shaquile O'Neil
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
Chris Webber
Tracy McGrady
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Shawn Kemp
Reggie Miller
Kevin Durant
Glenn Rice
Alonzo Mourning
Larry Johnson
John Stockton

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

But that's precisely why your reasoning was contradictory. If guys like Gervin and Hayes made your list because "their offense had to count for something," you could use that same argument for guys like Pettit or Barkley or Drexler. Why in their cases did their "offensive stats" not count for something or were not worth something? See where I'm going with that?

If that's your argument, use for other players who similarly had prolific offensive stats. If not, then that's not the reason why you included Hayes and Gervin in your top 20. So what is the real reason? That's all I'm asking. I'm not asking you to change your opinion. I'm asking you the reason. If that's your reason, it just seems like poor logic, seeing how you left out guys like Barkley and Pettit.

Well, to be honest, I tried several methods sorting my top 20. I explained in the link how I created the list, so you can see my first top 20, it's the first 20 players on the top 50 list in order they joined pro ball. then I went down the list and if I thought the player now under consideration was better than any player on the list, I made a replacement. Walt Frazier stayed on for several reasons. He was a defensive beast, passed for assists, was clutch, could hit free throws, great at steals, double teams, and a team leader. To me, he's better than Isiaih was.

Mostly it was judgement. Also, a factor I used was whether the player was ever considered top 10 and could still be argued as such a player. This favors older players but it had an influence. So, if newer players couldn't be top 10, that probably did hurt them a bit, but they can fight it out with other players who weren't top 10, or didn't stay there long.

Theoretically, a top 10 should have players in positions representing what's on the court. 2 centers, 4 forwards, 4 guards. My top 20 list has 5 guards. Ideally it would have 8. It should have 4 centers, mine has 7 pure centers.

Yeah, I know this is all confusing. You can't imagine how hard it was for me to make it in the first place! Bottom line is we know who the top 50 players are through 1996. We have an idea what 15 players should be added next year, NBA top 65 at 65.

[Darrin]

These lists are so ridiculous because we didn't see these guys play. We don't know who made them better or worse, what the best moments of their career were. I know, for instance, the difference between Dirk in Nellie's offense, and in Avery's. I can't know that about Wilt or Russell. So I'm sticking to players I like watching that were great.

My top-20 to watch
1. Tim Duncan--21.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, and 2.3 bpg in 977 games.
2. Ben Wallace--6.2 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.3 spg, and 2.1 bpg in 972 games.
3. Kobe Bryant--25.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.7 apg, and 1.5 spg in 1,021 games.
4. Kevin Garnett--19.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, and 1.6 bpg in 1,124 games.
5. Ray Allen--20.5 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 3.7 apg, and 1.2 spg in 1,022 games.
6. Chauncey Billups--15.4 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 5.6 apg, and 1.0 spg in 910 games.
7. Grant Hill--17.8 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg, and 1.3 spg in 868 games.
8. Jason Kidd--13.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 9.2 apg, and 2.0 spg in 1,187 games.
9. Rasheed Wallace--14.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.0 spg, and 1.3 bpg in 1,088 games.
10. Chris Webber--20.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.4 spg, and 1.4 bpg in 831 games.
11. Paul Pierce--22.5 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, and 1.5 spg in 884 games.
12. Hakeem Olajuwon--21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.2 spg, and 1.5 bpg in 1,238 games.
13. Larry Johnson--16.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 3.3 apg in 707 games.
14. Alonzo Mourning--17.1 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.1 apg, and 2.8 bpg in 838 games.
15. Dennis Rodman--7.3 ppg, 13.1 rpg, and 1.8 apg in 911 games.
16. Jerry Stackhouse--18.0 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 3.6 apg, and 1.0 spg in 896 games.
17. Kevin Johnson--17.9 ppg, 9.1 apg, 3.3 rpg, and 1.5 spg in 735 games.
18. Clyde Drexler--20.4 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.6 apg, and 2.0 spg in 1,086 games.
19. Shawn Kemp--14.6 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.1 spg, and 1.2 bpg in 1,051 games.
20. Baron Davis--16.7 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 7.4 apg, and 1.9 spg in 748 games.

[HarlemHeat37]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
3. Wilt Chamberlain*
4. Magic Johnson*
5. Larry Bird*
6. Bill Russell*
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Moses Malone*
12. Karl Malone
13. Julius Erving*
14. Oscar Robertson*
15. David Robinson
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Charles Barkley
18. Willis Reed*
19. Jerry West*
20. John Havlicek*


*Didn't see them play in their primes, basing it off accolades/stats/clips/overall research/opinions..

You can pretty much fuck around with anybody on the list from 12-20..

[Darrin]

what a retarded list, you've been watching since 96' yet you leave off MJ? lol wtf :lmao

'90. You have me confused with someone else. The list is players I appreciated who were good. It's not about "who's the best."

[BRHornet45]

sons I don't feel like typing out a list right now, but one thing is for damn sure ... Kobe and Duncan have absolutely NO BUSINESS being ranked in the top 10 like some of you put them. Duncan, top 15 maybe, but more likely somewhere between 15-20th ... Kobe, top 40 at best.

[badfish22]

The list is players I appreciated who were good. It's not about "who's the best."
Of course it is.

[fevertrees]

Richard Hamilton is definitely in the top 20 for me

[Koolaid_Man]

sons I don't feel like typing out a list right now, but one thing is for damn sure ... Kobe and Duncan have absolutely NO BUSINESS being ranked in the top 10 like some of you put them. Duncan, top 15 maybe, but more likely somewhere between 15-20th ... Kobe, top 40 at best.

I feel ya BRHornet...Kobe being in the top 40 is like saying you get pussy on the regular...both of which just aren't happening...:toast

[TheMACHINE]

Thanks

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab177/LMAOxROFL/nba_g_ginobili_580.jpg

[lefty]

lol at " Manu Stopper " :lol

[Baseline]

In no particular order....

Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60 *
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70 *
Julius Erving 1971-72
Moses Malone 1974-75
Larry Bird 1979-80 *
Magic Johnson 1979-80 *
Michael Jordan 1984-85 *
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Karl Malone 1985-86
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
Tim Duncan
John Stockton
Bob Pettit
Bill Russell
Bob Cousy

[Killakobe81]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. kareem
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Bird
7. hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Isiah
10. Moses
11. KG
12. Malone
13. Barkley
14. Ewing
15. Dirk
16. Lebron (jumps to 11 with title cracks top 5 with multiples)
17. Stockton
18. Pippen
19. Kidd
20. Miller or Payton off the top of my head ...

[Rummpd]

Laughable and sublime not to include Russell! I supposed 20+ rebounds a game plus the best shotblocker for his size ever plus the best competitor ever (and the only man ever to relatively shut down Wilt) is inane.

Where is Duncan? (arguebly a top ten) Where is Kobe - also a legit top ten discussant?

Patrick Ewing over David Robinson on any list?????? (Wake me when Ewing ever had a Quadruble Double) Ha Ha Ha


Robinson was the starting center on the dream team for a reason. He was that damm good.

Give me Russell, Duncan, Kobe, and Robinson and any 8 of great players of all time and they could compete with any team ever composed. One could pair those 4 + James + Wade + plus 6 other greats not on your list and they would probably beat any 12 you can pull out of your list.

[jag]

sons I don't feel like typing out a list right now, but one thing is for damn sure ... Kobe and Duncan have absolutely NO BUSINESS being ranked in the top 10 like some of you put them. Duncan, top 15 maybe, but more likely somewhere between 15-20th ... Kobe, top 40 at best.

Considering how dominant Shaq was in his prime, he has to at least be considered for the top 10. Now when you compare Duncan and Shaq I could easily make a case for Duncan being a better career player. How then could you say Duncan has "NO BUSINESS" being in the top 10?

And not putting Kobe in the top 15 is a joke.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Laughable and sublime not to include Russell! I supposed 20+ rebounds a game plus the best shotblocker for his size ever plus the best competitor ever (and the only man ever to relatively shut down Wilt) is inane.

Where is Duncan? (arguebly a top ten) Where is Kobe - also a legit top ten discussant?

Patrick Ewing over David Robinson on any list?????? (Wake me when Ewing ever had a Quadruble Double) Ha Ha Ha

If you read my post carefully you would see why there is no Tim or Kobe. I stopped with the NBA top 50 players at 50 years. I also said they would go in when that list is updated.

As for Russell, his omission is explained as well. Back in his time he wasn't rated that highly, see Philadelphia Chamberlain's post as well. We were both around back then. You folks who never saw him play overrate him.

As far as Ewing over Robinson, hey, it's my list. Where's yours?

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Guys, don't criticize other people for their choices. Just post your top 20 lists, thanks.

[Rummpd]

Leaving off Russell is sublime and disrespectful to one of the games all time greats. You lost everyone there.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Leaving off Russell is sublime and disrespectful to one of the games all time greats. You lost everyone there.

I disagree. I started the thread for people to post their lists. I left Russell off to make a point, which has been explained. Read in this thread what I and others said, it may clarify my opinion, and explain what went on in that era. One person omitted MJ, and another Wilt. So what? That's their lists.

[Jose Canseco]

Patrick Ewing over David Robinson on any list?????? (Wake me when Ewing ever had a Quadruble Double) Ha Ha Ha


Doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree with your actual point, but using a "quadruble double" game as an argument is just asinine. One game doesn't make a player great or not. The lack of having a "guadruble double" doesn't make a player not great. Lest we start talking about Joe Fulks being one of the greatest scorers ever because he has a 60 point game.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Considering how dominant Shaq was in his prime, he has to at least be considered for the top 10. Now when you compare Duncan and Shaq I could easily make a case for Duncan being a better career player. How then could you say Duncan has "NO BUSINESS" being in the top 10?

And not putting Kobe in the top 15 is a joke.

Anyone on a top 20 should be considered potential top 10, or at least once honestly belonged there because an adherent can still use the same old arguments for their inclusion.

I don't know who to put in my top 10. If I toss into my top 20 Tim, Kobe, Russell, and LeBron, I have to take 4 out. Likely those 4 could be Hayes, Frazier, Ewing, and Lucas. Now, you have 4 arguable top 10 players added right in the mix, plus 5 players most everyone considers to be a lock; Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and MJ.

See, it gets messy. However, being considered top 10 is almost as good as belonging there. Not that many have a firm foothold as legitimate bonifide top 10.

[Killakobe81]

I did not include players i never saw ...so Wilt, Oscar,Rissell etc are not on mine. Doesnt mean they werent greater ... but I refuse to base my list off of boxscores or grainy footage.

[Rummpd]

i agree this is a hard thing to do and sorry to be so hard on the original poster. My list is the 20 that I would to pick from to compose an all time dream team:


Centers: Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, D. Robinson, and the Dream (6)
Forwards: Duncan, Bird, K. Malone, LeBron, Baylor, Barkley, Garnett (7)
Guards: Jordan, Magic, West, Kobe, Oscar, Wade, Cousy (7)

Hardest to leave off: Havlicek, Petit, and Lucas. I also believe that Kidd, Stockton and Nash are all somewhat under-appreciated for their greatness and could all deserve to be on the list. Durant when he has another couple of great years - will have to replace someone on the top 20 - leaving probably a hard pick between D. Robinson, Barkley or Garnett.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

i agree this is a hard thing to do and sorry to be so the original poster. My list is the 20 that I would to pick from to compose an dream :


Centers: Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, D. Robinson, and the Dream (6)
Forwards: , Bird, K. Malone, LeBron, Baylor, Barkley, Garnett (7)
Guards: Jordan, Magic, West, Kobe, Oscar, Wade, Cousy (7)

Hardest to leave off: Havlicek, Petit, and Lucas. I also believe that Kidd, Stockton and Nash are all somewhat under-appreciated for their greatness and could all deserve to be on the list. Durant when he has another couple of great years - will have to replace someone on the top 20 - leaving probably a hard pick between D. Robinson, Barkley or Garnett.

Hey, no problem, thanks for contributing. I, and others, should also sort by position.

A few points. The era I began watching was offense oriented, at least as perceived by the fans and the media. The league agreed, they used to have a territorial draft pick rule, allowing NBA teams to draft local college players to help at the gate. Boston got Tommy Heinsohn in 1956, and Cincinatti chose Oscar Robertson in 1960 this way. There are countless other examples. I still have somewhat of a bias toward offense in my selections as a result of the way I learned about the game, but not always. I added Bil Russell, Kobe Bryant, and Tim Duncan. I removed Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, and Jerry Lucas. I kept Ewing over Reed because his career was longer. I chose Gervin over Frazier, but they are about equal. Frazier was more well-rounded, but Gervin piled up the points.

Adjusted Top 20, by entrance into pro ball:

Bill Russell 1956-57
Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70
Julius Erving 1971-72
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Larry Bird 1979-80
Magic Johnson 1979-80
Michael Jordan 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Patrick Ewing 1985-86
Karl Malone 1985-86
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
Kobe Bryant 1996-97
Tim Duncan 1997-98

Top 5. I more or less am following Jamstone's idea. Place players by tiers. The order of the top 3 is arguable. I believe Magic to be better than Bird. Also, his championship window was longer by several years, and he won more titles. A strike against both is they played on stacked teams. The 1984-87 Celtics were considered to have a better starting 5, but the Lakers were deeper.

1-3 Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60
1-3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70
1-3 Michael Jordan 1984-85
4 Magic Johnson 1979-80
5 Larry Bird 1979-80

6-15:

Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Julius Erving 1971-72
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Karl Malone 1985-86
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
Kobe Bryant 1996-97
Tim Duncan 1997-98

16-20. These are players who will begin falling out of the top 20 as newer players gain ground over the next decade; LeBron, Wade, Durant, etc.: Note, I feel fans of Shaq, Tim, and Kobe should be happy to remove Bill from top 10 consideration, it opens up a spot for them to fight for their favorite.

Bill Russell 1956-57
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Patrick Ewing 1985-86

Next, I split players 6-15 into two eras and ranked them:

Note, every one of these players was once a legitimate top 10 all time player, and although some have fallen out, they probably all haven't.

Older era rankings:

1 Oscar Robertson 1960-61
2 Jerry West 1960-61
3 Julius Erving 1971-72
4 Elgin Baylor 1958-59
5 John Havlicek 1962-63

Younger era rankings. Top 3 are close to equal in my mind:

1-3 Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
1-3 Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
1-3 Tim Duncan 1997-98
4 Kobe Bryant 1996-97
5 Karl Malone 1985-86

Now, how to combine 6-15 into one list to finish a top 10. I thought of two ways. Take both one and two players from the old era, then either four or three from the new era to finish a top 10.

Method one, 1 old player, 4 new.

6-9 Oscar Robertson 1960-61
6-9 Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
6-9 Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
6-9 Tim Duncan 1997-98
10 Kobe Bryant 1996-97

I prefer this one, 2 older players, 3 new:

6-9 Oscar Robertson 1960-61
6-9 Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
6-9 Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
6-9 Tim Duncan 1997-98
10 Jerry West 1960-61

This seems to be pretty fair. In either choice, Kobe and West are arguably close, as they should be. For those that underrate West, know this. He and Baylor carried a bunch of scrubs and had to score a shitload of points every game for the Lakers to have a chance against Russell's stacked teams. They managed to take their ragtag teams to three 7 game series against Boston in the 60's. Think of the 2009 Celtics vs. Bulls playoffs, times 3 for excitement. Robertson, West, and Baylor are top 20 no matter how you slice it, and were once top 5 all time, period.

Now, the next question is, can Shaq, Tim, or Kobe move up in the top 20? Let's examine each one if they ring up again.

If Shaq wins one in his last two years, he would move ahead of everyone he is logjammed with and even replace Bird. If Tim wins another, the exact same thing can happen. Right now, one can argue either may better than Bird, another ring would clinch it. Kobe has an odd situation. If he rings before Shaq or Tim, where to put him? It would at least get him to number 6, and possibly number 5. Would anyone dare to say he would pass Magic? Well, Earvin has said that, but I don't believe the public will. I think Kobe needs to get 7 or 8 rings to move ahead of Magic and Bird for certain. 8 rings could fight for top 4 with Wilt, Kareem, and MJ.

So, my top 20 in some order (ties by earliest year played) is:

1-3 Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60
1-3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70
1-3 Michael Jordan 1984-85
4 Magic Johnson 1979-80
5 Larry Bird 1979-80
6-9 Oscar Robertson 1960-61
6-9 Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
6-9 Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
6-9 Tim Duncan 1997-98
10 Jerry West 1960-61

11-15:

11 Kobe Bryant 1996-97
12 Julius Erving 1971-72
13 Elgin Baylor 1958-59
14-15 John Havlicek 1962-63
14-15 Karl Malone 1985-86

16-20:

16-20 Bill Russell 1956-57
16-20 Elvin Hayes 1968-69
16-20 George Gervin 1972-73
16-20 Moses Malone 1974-75
16-20 Patrick Ewing 1985-86

If this thread keeps enough interest, I will break my ties.