Free market fire-fighting

[RandomGuy]

(from the DAILY KOS)

The conservative vision was on full display last week in Obion County, Tennessee. In this rural section of Tennessee, Gene Cranick’s home caught on fire. As the Cranicks fled their home, their neighbors alerted the county’s firefighters, who soon arrived at the scene. Yet when the firefighters arrived, they refused to put out the fire, saying that the family failed to pay the annual subscription fee to the fire department. Because the county’s fire services for rural residences is based on household subscription fees, the firefighters, fully equipped to help the Cranicks, stood by and watched as the home burned to the ground.


Interesting, no? I'd love to know whether the Cranicks are Teabagger sympathizers, just for full background.

If their house had been -- as Grover Norquist once counseled regarding governments -- small enough to drown in a bathtub, then they could have put the fire out themselves. See? (h/t to socratic for that one)

But the fascinating part of this story for me is that the firefighters ended up having to put the fire out on the property of a neighbor who had paid the fee. That's actually why we have taxes and common payment for essential services like fire fighting. Yes, the Cranicks saved on tax-like fee payments, and yes, they suffered the consequences of doing so. But their neighbor paid for protection, and suffered fire damage anyway. And not because of random accident, but because the firefighters were forced to refuse to come to the Cranicks' assistance. If they had, the neighbor would have had no damage at all.

It's also why we do things like treat even undocumented immigrants in hospital emergency rooms. No, they haven't paid. But yes, you stand a much better chance of not getting their tuberculosis when you hire them on the cheap, pretending not to notice their immigration status.

I guess I'm also surprised that the fire department wasn't prepared to accept payment for services. If the issue really is limited resources, then surely they'd be interested in recouping the sunk costs of having responded to the scene. The Cranicks offered to pay whatever it took to put the fire out. Why not do so, and then charge as doctors or hospitals might for uninsured patients? Apparently Republican Utopia is filled not with Libertarians, but with moral scolds. Who knew? We all thought it was the opposite!

The fiscal conservatives of Obion County, Tennessee threw out the money they spent sending the trucks out, and turned their backs on a profit-making opportunity in exchange for the chance to stick in in the Cranicks' eye. Why, you can practically taste the fiscal responsibility and good ol' fashioned common sense that made America great (but the Confederacy presumably greater)!

Meanwhile, I'm sure the neighbor is wondering right now whether he can get his fee prorated.

The silver lining here is that local water utilities now have a new and untapped revenue source. They can begin squeezing fire departments every time they want to open a hydrant.

Be on the lookout next summer for pay-to-play fire departments dropping lit matches around town to drum up business. And remember, if one of their fires melts your Medicaid-paid mobility scooter, you can still get another free one in time for the next Teabagger rally.


----------------------------------------------

http://www.dailykos.com/


Sorry. This was too deliciously wicked for me to pass up. :hat

[Drachen]

(from the DAILY KOS)

The conservative vision was on full display last week in Obion County, Tennessee. In this rural section of Tennessee, Gene Cranick’s home caught on fire. As the Cranicks fled their home, their neighbors alerted the county’s firefighters, who soon arrived at the scene. Yet when the firefighters arrived, they refused to put out the fire, saying that the family failed to pay the annual subscription fee to the fire department. Because the county’s fire services for rural residences is based on household subscription fees, the firefighters, fully equipped to help the Cranicks, stood by and watched as the home burned to the ground.


Interesting, no? I'd love to know whether the Cranicks are Teabagger sympathizers, just for full background.

If their house had been -- as Grover Norquist once counseled regarding governments -- small enough to drown in a bathtub, then they could have put the fire out themselves. See? (h/t to socratic for that one)

But the fascinating part of this story for me is that the firefighters ended up having to put the fire out on the property of a neighbor who had paid the fee. That's actually why we have taxes and common payment for essential services like fire fighting. Yes, the Cranicks saved on tax-like fee payments, and yes, they suffered the consequences of doing so. But their neighbor paid for protection, and suffered fire damage anyway. And not because of random accident, but because the firefighters were forced to refuse to come to the Cranicks' assistance. If they had, the neighbor would have had no damage at all.

It's also why we do things like treat even undocumented immigrants in hospital emergency rooms. No, they haven't paid. But yes, you stand a much better chance of not getting their tuberculosis when you hire them on the cheap, pretending not to notice their immigration status.

I guess I'm also surprised that the fire department wasn't prepared to accept payment for services. If the issue really is limited resources, then surely they'd be interested in recouping the sunk costs of having responded to the scene. The Cranicks offered to pay whatever it took to put the fire out. Why not do so, and then charge as doctors or hospitals might for uninsured patients? Apparently Republican Utopia is filled not with Libertarians, but with moral scolds. Who knew? We all thought it was the opposite!

The fiscal conservatives of Obion County, Tennessee threw out the money they spent sending the trucks out, and turned their backs on a profit-making opportunity in exchange for the chance to stick in in the Cranicks' eye. Why, you can practically taste the fiscal responsibility and good ol' fashioned common sense that made America great (but the Confederacy presumably greater)!

Meanwhile, I'm sure the neighbor is wondering right now whether he can get his fee prorated.

The silver lining here is that local water utilities now have a new and untapped revenue source. They can begin squeezing fire departments every time they want to open a hydrant.

Be on the lookout next summer for pay-to-play fire departments dropping lit matches around town to drum up business. And remember, if one of their fires melts your Medicaid-paid mobility scooter, you can still get another free one in time for the next Teabagger rally.


----------------------------------------------

http://www.dailykos.com/


Sorry. This was too deliciously wicked for me to pass up. :hat

Posted in the club, however what the DKOS doesn't go into is how resources would get far far more scarce if they accepted payment at the time of fire.

[boutons_deux]

as result of this story from deep in red-state bubba land, there's been a few articles about private fire fighting companies many decades ago. Interesting stuff, and exactly why firefighting has been taken out of the for-profit area.

Had they charged the guy $15000 bucks (about the price of a hernia and appendectomy surgery), that's 15000/75 = 200 years.

stupid bubba is as stupid bubba does.

[Winehole23]

@Drachen:

Not quite sure what you meant.

If the fire department creates the expectation that non-payers will be served it can become a political obligation, or service to participants suffers?

Something like that?

[RandomGuy]

Posted in the club, however what the DKOS doesn't go into is how resources would get far far more scarce if they accepted payment at the time of fire.

yeah I know.

I just thought that KOS's rather slanted version would be better here, than posted in the non-political "club" forum.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm sorry. You lost me right after "The conservative vision was on full display last week in Obion County, Tennessee."

That's a pretty reasoned appraisal.:rolleyes


What's funnier, I've read this story on several other bbs I frequent, a couple with some progressives that make this place look like Disney land. This is the first place I've seen the partisan spin tho. And from RG no less.

[TeyshaBlue]

Maybe I'm missing the blue?

[TeyshaBlue]

Maybe I just need more coffee..

[TeyshaBlue]

Huehuetenango to the rescue!

[RandomGuy]

Posted in the club, however what the DKOS doesn't go into is how resources would get far far more scarce if they accepted payment at the time of fire.

Pretty much.

The thing about fire is that it is something like health care. We all have a stake in each others' well-being.

If the neighbor's house burns, that threatens mine.

If the neighbor has to use the emergency room because he can't afford his meds, that causes my premiums to rise.

If the neighbor does a shitty job raising his kids, I have to pay for the jails.

That is why libertarianism fails, IMO. It can't take the fact that we are interconnected in some way into account.

[RandomGuy]

I'm sorry. You lost me right after "The conservative vision was on full display last week in Obion County, Tennessee."

That's a pretty reasoned appraisal.:rolleyes


What's funnier, I've read this story on several other bbs I frequent, a couple with some progressives that make this place look like Disney land. This is the first place I've seen the partisan spin tho. And from RG no less.

Hey man, you were the one who tipped me to KOS. That was the first thing that comes up on the page, heh.

I will admit though, it is something of a slanted point of view, even if it is something that I tend to agree with. It makes some rather salient points about the failure of "pure market" systems, so I thought I would throw it out there.

[TeyshaBlue]

Hey man, you were the one who tipped me to KOS. That was the first thing that comes up on the page, heh.

I will admit though, it is something of a slanted point of view, even if it is something that I tend to agree with. It makes some rather salient points about the failure of "pure market" systems, so I thought I would throw it out there.

Sorry man...long day. I'm going to go rent me a sense of humor when I get off work.:toast

[Drachen]

@Drachen:

Not quite sure what you meant.

If the fire department creates the expectation that non-payers will be served it can become a political obligation, or service to participants suffers?

Something like that?

Nope, If I can pay at time of fire, then I'll save my money until my fire. Multiply that times 1000 residents (arbitrary number, I don't know what the real number is) and that is 75k in scarcer resources.

You don't expect a car insurance company to cover you 10 mins after you had an accident for the accident you just had do you?

[RandomGuy]

Sorry man...long day. I'm going to go rent me a sense of humor when I get off work.:toast

Sorry, I re-read what I wrote and it sounded a bit defensive.

I meant it more along the lines as "guilty as charged" wry-amusment.I think the conservatives on the board who think nothing of throwing out some opinion piece as settled fact deserve a counterveiling piece every once in a while. I might even throw out a few more daily Kos bits as we go along just to counterbalance the never ending "Obama bad, booga booga booga socialism" threads.

[DarrinS]

These guys are public servants, so this is just the OPPOSITE of "free market" fire fighting.

Perhaps these guys acted as a death panel on that home?

[Drachen]

These guys are public servants, so this is just the OPPOSITE of "free market" fire fighting.

Perhaps these guys acted as a death panel on that home?

They are not public servants to that part of the state. Just citizens with a loud truck.

[DarrinS]

They are not public servants to that part of the state. Just citizens with a loud truck.

How do they get paid?

[TeyshaBlue]

Sorry, I re-read what I wrote and it sounded a bit defensive.

I meant it more along the lines as "guilty as charged" wry-amusment.I think the conservatives on the board who think nothing of throwing out some opinion piece as settled fact deserve a counterveiling piece every once in a while. I might even throw out a few more daily Kos bits as we go along just to counterbalance the never ending "Obama bad, booga booga booga socialism" threads.

Nah, I'm just being grouchy for some reason today.

btw, 1 cogent RG post is more than equivalent to 50 of those "fwd:fwd:fwd:" posts. It's getting to the point where they just roll off me like water...if I even bother to read 'em anymore.:lol

[Winehole23]

Nope, If I can pay at time of fire, then I'll save my money until my fire. Multiply that times 1000 residents (arbitrary number, I don't know what the real number is) and that is 75k in scarcer resources.Gotcha. Thx. That's sort of what I thought you meant.


You don't expect a car insurance company to cover you 10 mins after you had an accident for the accident you just had do you?No, but I do expect my health insurer to cover me after I get sick, after 2014.






(If I had health insurance. )

[Blake]

How do they get paid?

do you always just read thread/article titles without actually reading the content?

[Drachen]

How do they get paid?

Well for the city where they are public servants, they get paid by the city. However they provide a fee based service to those outside of their jurisdiction.

[DarrinS]

Well for the city where they are public servants, they get paid by the city. However they provide a fee based service to those outside of their jurisdiction.

Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. I get that. How is it any different that the property tax that automatically gets deducted for such coverage?

[Drachen]

Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. I get that. How is it any different that the property tax that automatically gets deducted for such coverage?


One is a choice, the other is not (unless you want to give up your house in a tax lien sale).

I have to go, but what it comes down to is this, there is no such thing as a free lunch. All users must pay for the services they expect to use.

[DarrinS]

One is a choice, the other is not (unless you want to give up your house in a tax lien sale).

I have to go, but what it comes down to is this, there is no such thing as a free lunch. All users must pay for the services they expect to use.


I agree.

[101A]

How do they get paid?

Probably vounteer - almost all are here in PA, also. We don't have the "subscriber" model in the town I live in (2-1) Republican to Democrats, btw.

[ChumpDumper]

I wouldn't feel so critical of the FD in this case had they not allowed fire victims to pay the fee retroactively in the past.

[boutons_deux]

I just read where providing the entire county with civilized/soclialistic fire fighting service would raise property taxes 0.13%.

The TN bubbas are penny wise and pound foolish.

[RandomGuy]

Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. I get that. How is it any different that the property tax that automatically gets deducted for such coverage?

Man, talk about stumbling into an important implication. I am bookmarking this post, and will come back to it repeatedly.

But first:

How would you answer that question Darrin?

[101A]

I just read where providing the entire county with civilized/soclialistic fire fighting service would raise property taxes 0.13%.

The TN bubbas are penny wise and pound foolish.

You would be surprised how common volunteer fire coverage is around the country; and it IS NOT just in "Bubbaville".

[Oh, Gee!!]

they should have put out the fire, then sent an itemized bill for services. more than likely, the debt could be turned into a lien if left unpaid, and probably could not be discharged by the owing party through bankruptcy. more than that though, it's the right thing to do.

[boutons_deux]

I'm not surprised by VFDs at all, even if they're very socialistic. People working together to help each other? Hell no, The Economic Darwinistic AynRand-y American Way is Every Rugged Individual For Himself :)

I'm amazed that hate-govt/hate-taxes/Christ-Lord-Jesus-Savior bubbas separate fire fighting charges from the general muncipal/county tax pool.

[coyotes_geek]

they should have put out the fire, then sent an itemized bill for services. more than likely, the debt could be turned into a lien if left unpaid, and probably could not be discharged by the owing party through bankruptcy. more than that though, it's the right thing to do.

That certainly sounds like a more reasonable approach.

I'd be interested to see if this incident has caused a bunch of people to start paying the $75 fee.

[rjv]

i posted this somewhere else as well but the fact is that our emergency services can never be qualified or predicated upon a standard that must be met in order to earn these services. they have to be universally available. if that is compromised we place our entire society at risk. this was an inexcusable offense of basic ethics when it comes to our emergency response system.

[boutons_deux]

Free market fire fighting is also "CHRISTIAN" fire fighting. Jesus do like him so flames. ain't go no flames in Heaven.

"The fire department did the right and Christian thing. The right thing, by the way, is also the Christian thing, because there can be no difference between the two. The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do."

Christ is one Macho Manly Man SOB, too:

"In this case, critics of the fire department are confused both about right and wrong and about Christianity. And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability."

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Jesus-annoyed.jpg


http://wonkette.com/425195/afa-jesus-wanted-firefighters-to-let-that-house-to-burn


.

[Wild Cobra]

Man, talk about stumbling into an important implication. I am bookmarking this post, and will come back to it repeatedly.

But first:

How would you answer that question Darrin?
Do you mean if you fail to par property taxes, you lose you house?

[RandomGuy]

Do you mean if you fail to [pay] property taxes, you lose [your] house?

That is one of the differences, yes.

How would you answer the question?

[Wild Cobra]

That is one of the differences, yes.

How would you answer the question?
Sorry that it comes to getting what you paid for.

Look. Everyone with property in that community knew the stakes. Nobody held a gun to their head and said they had to buy property there.

Community services need funding, and it isn't always right to be entitled to a service you willfully don't pay for.

What I haven't heard of this conversation is if the guy ever paid, or just snubbed his nose at them. I would think the way most communities work, that the fire department would have put his house out if he had been a payer of the service in the past, and fell into hard times.

I'll lay odds he simply refused to pay out of wan entitlement mentality.