Better Defender: Dennis Rodman or Tim Duncan

[tbonewalker]

Right off the bat I want to say Welcome to the good-spirited Better Defender debate. Please, only pure basketball reasoning to back up your opinion. No agendas, baby.

Dennis Rodman / Tim Duncan

Better defensive PF?

Defensive Rebounding = Rodman

Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman

Team defense = Rodman by a hair

Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).

Rodman has never NOT repeated

Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit

Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls

Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.


Am I saying it's a landslide? No, not entirely, although it may look that way based on facts laid out above.


-Duncan was the better shot blocker (which doesn't make up for everything else Rodman is better at on Defense). Duncan averaged one more block than Rodman. This makes much more sense when you look a little deeper though. Something to remember is that Duncan get's a lot of his blocks from the weakside, hardly ever gets blocks on his own man. Not chopping his legs off here, just stating a fact. :-)


-Duncan played more minutes than Rodman. Even out those minutes and Rodman's "stats" are much more impressive.

[EricB]

Duncan >>>>> Rodman


Duncan never pulled horseshit like I saw Rodman do in 1995.

[tbonewalker]

Duncan >>>>> Rodman


Duncan never pulled horseshit like I saw Rodman do in 1995.


This is your idea of an intelligent response to a better defender debate? You are automatically dismissed. Learn how to participate in a debate, come back and try again...

[DesignatedT]

Duncan

[TinTin]

Horrible troll attempt

[Brazil]

this troll is annoying as hell

[hsxvvd]

Rodman was a good rebounder, not a good defender.

DPOY never really gives credit to the players who play good defence, only those who rack up "defensive" stats. Classic example is Bowen never winning it, whilst Camby was.

Duncan an easy winner in this one.

[tbonewalker]

Duncan

...with nothing to back it up.

I gave you a nice little write up to start this off. It might have been too convincing, judging by the replies thus far.

Not one Spur fan is showing the capacity to debate logically and objectively.

Any one have the fortitude?

[FromWayDowntown]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

[tbonewalker]

Rodman was a good rebounder, not a good defender.

As evidenced by what? You bring nothing to the table to back it up.




DPOY never really gives credit to the players who play good defence, only those who rack up "defensive" stats. Classic example is Bowen never winning it, whilst Camby was.

LMAO... when Camby won the award - was Bowen worthy? NO. The only season Bowen was remotely close to 'worthy' was the year RON ARTEST won it. Ron Artest is the better defender between the two and had the better season defensively, which is why he won it over BOWEN.



Duncan an easy winner in this one.

With nothing to back it up. Dismissed again...

[sa_butta]

Duncan and it's not even close, Rodman maybe a better rebounder. But not a better defender.

[lmbebo]

Rodman was a great defender when he wanted to be.

He didn't always want to be one. Especially when he played in SA.

Rodman is only a more versatile defender.

in the post, I'd rather have Duncan defending. But if I needed a glue guy defender in a team, Rodman. He could prob guard all 5 positions reasonably well.

[tbonewalker]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating...........

Or in Defensive Win Shares..........


Cherrypicking flawed stats is an automatic dismissal in a real basketball debate. Everybody knows this. Defensive rating... Defensive win shares? :lmao Please.

Anything REAL to bring to the table besides cherrypicked flawed stats which reveal next to nothing?

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd agree, also, that DPOY voting is a pretty bad way to assess players historically. I'm not even sure that it's a particularly good way to assess players in the same year, but from year-to-year it makes little sense at all.

To extrapolate from those advanced metrics I previously cited, Duncan (while never winning DPOY) has led the league in Defensive Rating three times in his career and has led the league in Defensive Win Shares five times. Rodman never led the league in Defensive Rating and led in Defensive Win Shares only once (and that was in a year in which he didn't win DPOY).

[tbonewalker]

Rodman was a great defender when he wanted to be.

He didn't always want to be one. Especially when he played in SA.

Rodman is only a more versatile defender.

in the post, I'd rather have Duncan defending. But if I needed a glue guy defender in a team, Rodman. He could prob guard all 5 positions reasonably well.

Finally a realistic response. I can respect responses like this.

Cheers, lmbebo! :toast


Rodman was the more versatile defender. At 6'7", he could guard positions 2-5 in some cases. Obviously he was more effective guarding 4-5 even at a height disadvantage.

[tbonewalker]

To extrapolate from those advanced metrics I previously cited, Duncan (while never winning DPOY) has led the league in Defensive Rating three times in his career and has led the league in Defensive Win Shares five times. Rodman never led the league in Defensive Rating and led in Defensive Win Shares only once (and that was in a year in which he didn't win DPOY).

All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.

Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.

That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me :lmao

Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.

[FromWayDowntown]

LMAO... when Camby won the award - was Bowen worthy? NO. The only season Bowen was remotely close to 'worthy' was the year RON ARTEST won it. Ron Artest is the better defender between the two and had the better season defensively, which is why he won it over BOWEN.

So in 2005-06 and 2006-07, when Bowen got the most votes from the NBA's coaches of any player in All-Defensive team voting (more than Marcus Camby), he wasn't close to being worthy of being the Defensive Player of the Year?

Are you really arguing that the NBA media knows more about quality defense than the NBA's coaches?

[phxspurfan]

Rodman, hands down. Sorry TD, but you had nothing on Rodman when he was locked in.

[FromWayDowntown]

All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.

Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.

That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me :lmao

Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.

Oh, I'm not relying on either of those stats, and you'll note that I haven't specifically contested your conclusion -- all I've said is that there are objective measures (something more than what tbonewalker happens to think about an issue) that would dispute your argument.

It is funny, though, that rather than dealing with what those measures suggest, you simply choose to reject measures that a substantial number of very smart people who make real basketball decisions rely upon in some way shape or form.

[tbonewalker]

Rodman, hands down. Sorry TD, but you had nothing on Rodman when he was locked in.

Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with giving Rodman props here.

Game recognize game.

[tbonewalker]

Oh, I'm not relying on either of those stats, and you'll note that I haven't specifically contested your conclusion -- all I've said is that there are objective measures (something more than what tbonewalker happens to think about an issue) that would dispute your argument.

It is funny, though, that rather than dealing with what those measures suggest, you simply choose to reject measures that a substantial number of very smart people who make real basketball decisions rely upon in some way shape or form.

I can understand if you were just throwing the flawed stats out there in the 'debate hat' but if you are going to rely on them as your reasoning that Duncan is the better defender... it will be dismissed, and you seem like a smart enough guy to figure out why.

You really believe GM's and Coaches look at Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Share stats when assessing a player?

I highly, highly, highly doubt that. I'd go as far as saying most GM's and Coaches have no clue about these two worthless stats.

[FromWayDowntown]

I can understand if you were just throwing the flawed stats out there in the 'debate hat' but if you are going to rely on them as your reasoning that Duncan is the better defender... it will be dismissed, and you seem like a smart enough guy to figure out why.

You really believe GM's and Coaches look at Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Share stats when assessing a player?

I highly, highly, highly doubt that. I'd go as far as saying most GM's and Coaches have no clue about these two worthless stats.

Yet the guys who created them and stats like them have been employed by NBA teams and more and more teams are hiring adherents to those sorts of advanced metrics.

And since you haven't bothered with my other question -- who knows more about quality defense: NBA media or NBA coaches?

[tbonewalker]

Oh, I'm not relying on either of those stats, and you'll note that I haven't specifically contested your conclusion


Ahhh, OK Gotcha, I thought you were smarter than that at first and was wondering if you were going to rely on those stats. I was correct. :toast

Do you understand how I came to my conclusion?

[history2b]

Duncan >>>>> Rodman


Duncan never pulled horseshit like I saw Rodman do in 1995.


Sounds like someone is limited to the Spurs blinders perspective.

When I think of Dennis I think Detroit Pistons in his younger days and in Chicago in his latter days.

That said, Dennis Rodman is the superior defender and his multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards serve as a great support of this.

[FromWayDowntown]

Ahhh, OK Gotcha, I thought you were smarter than that at first and was wondering if you were going to rely on those stats. I was correct. :toast

Do you understand how I came to my conclusion?

I understand that you have relied on fairly subjective measures of evaluating defense and are willing to discount more objective measures (without explaining why they're flawed). I also understand that you hold the views of NBA coaches in fairly low regard and accept the views of the NBA media in assessing the quality of a player's defense -- otherwise, you couldn't possibly argue that Bruce Bowen wasn't remotely the best defender in basketball for several years.

So, yes.

[Phenomanul]

Duncan-led teams have held opponents (both Regular season and Playoffs) to record low PPG and FG%....

something like 82.4 PPG for the whole season....

Rodman never led his teams to that type of defensive prowess...

And since you've already discounted the two metrics FWD provided; I'm fairly certain you don't understand the implications of game pace... mostly because they don't suit the needs of your argument...

[Obstructed_View]

No agendas, baby.

If that were the case, you wouldn't be posting.

Better defender: Kobe Bryant. Why won't you guys see how great he is?

[Phenomanul]

Also, Rodman was known to gamble on defense just for the sake of padding his rebound numbers... Duncan's not a stat-padder by any sense of the word....

[tbonewalker]

I understand that you have relied on fairly subjective measures of evaluating defense and are willing to discount more objective measures (without explaining why they're flawed). I also understand that you hold the views of NBA coaches in fairly low regard and accept the views of the NBA media in assessing the quality of a player's defense -- otherwise, you couldn't possibly argue that Bruce Bowen wasn't remotely the best defender in basketball for several years.

So, yes.


Good, thats out of the way. Now you can park your behind back into the 'on-topic' seat! :nope

Topic is Duncan/Rodman (better defender) yet you can't get off of Bruce Bowen who got beat out by a better defender (Artest) the ONE year he was closest to winning that award.

[history2b]

Duncan-led teams have held opponents (both Regular season and Playoffs) to record low PPG and FG%....

something like 82.4 PPG for the whole season....

Rodman never led his teams to that type of defensive prowess...

And since you've already discounted the two metrics FWD provided; I'm fairly certain you don't understand the implications of game pace... mostly because they don't suit the needs of your argument...

LOL What?

So Rodman's teams didn't play the slow the game down to Tim Duncan snail like pace in order to lower opponents overall PPG and so that statistic is used as the measure for superior defense?

This place is a joke. Will any objective fans who actually know the game of basketball and don't speak stat geek please stand up and let your voice be heard?

Spurs played defense better than the Bad Boys Pistons? Lol

Better than MJ's Bulls?

Land of Delusion.

[tbonewalker]

If that were the case, you wouldn't be posting.

Better defender: Kobe Bryant. Why won't you guys see how great he is?

Congrats, you are the first person to mention Kobe in this thread. Any clue on how to participate in a good-spirited debate?

[FromWayDowntown]

Topic is Duncan/Rodman (better defender) yet you can't get off of Bruce Bowen who got beat out by a better defender (Artest) the ONE year he was closest to winning that award.

One part of a debate is debunking the bogus sources that one side relies upon to support its arguments or its credibility. Your argument about Bowen, which brings into question your subjective assessments of defensive play, is untenable if only because the All-Defense Team voting for several years shows that Bowen got more votes from NBA coaches than any other player in the league during those seasons.

So, either your all-in on DPOY voting (done by the media) and give no credence to what the NBA coaches think (as evidenced by their All-Defense team voting) OR your assessments of defensive play don't jive with those of the people on this planet who should know as much as anyone about NBA defense.

Which is it?

[Phenomanul]

LOL What?

So Rodman's teams didn't play the slow the game down to Tim Duncan snail like pace in order to lower opponents overall PPG and so that statistic is used as the measure for superior defense?

This place is a joke. Will any objective fans who actually know the game of basketball and don't speak stat geek please stand up and let your voice be heard?

Spurs played defense better than the Bad Boys Pistons? Lol

Better than MJ's Bulls?

Land of Delusion.

...under the delusion that you are somehow not a troll... :sleep

Like I said, you're not bright enough to understand the implications of game pace...

Rodman was a better rebounder.... that's about it.

[tbonewalker]

One part of a debate is debunking the bogus sources that one side relies upon to support its arguments or its credibility. Your argument about Bowen, which brings into question your subjective assessments of defensive play, is untenable if only because the All-Defense Team voting for several years shows that Bowen got more votes from NBA coaches than any other player in the league during those seasons.

So, either your all-in on DPOY voting (done by the media) and give no credence to what the NBA coaches think (as evidenced by their All-Defense team voting) OR your assessments of defensive play don't jive with those of the people on this planet who should know as much as anyone about NBA defense.

Which is it?


Who brought up Bowen?

[Phenomanul]

Who brought up Bowen?

Who threw out the legitimacy of All-NBA Defense recognition?

[tbonewalker]

Who threw out the legitimacy of All-NBA Defense recognition?

Not me.

[tbonewalker]

Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.

Back to square one then:

-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman
-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
-Team defense = Rodman by a hair
-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
-Rodman has never NOT repeated
-Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit
-Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls
-Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.


Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers. :toast

[FromWayDowntown]

Who brought up Bowen?


LMAO... when Camby won the award - was Bowen worthy? NO. The only season Bowen was remotely close to 'worthy' was the year RON ARTEST won it. Ron Artest is the better defender between the two and had the better season defensively, which is why he won it over BOWEN.

By the way, in 2005-06, Bowen got 26 first place votes from the league's coaches and 55 total points (most among all players) in All-Defense voting; NBA DPOY Ben Wallace got 26 first place votes, too, and ended with 54 total points.

In 2006-07, Bowen got 19 first place votes (most among all players) and 42 total points in coaches voting; DPOY Marcus Camby got 11 first place votes and had 34 points.

Yeah, Bowen wasn't close to being a better defender. The NBA coaches thought he was better, but what the hell do they know?

[tbonewalker]

By the way, in 2005-06, Bowen got 26 first place votes from the league's coaches and 55 total points (most among all players) in All-Defense voting; NBA DPOY Ben Wallace got 26 first place votes, too, and ended with 54 total points.

In 2006-07, Bowen got 19 first place votes (most among all players) and 42 total points in coaches voting; DPOY Marcus Camby got 11 first place votes and had 34 points.

Yeah, Bowen wasn't close to being a better defender. The NBA coaches thought he was better, but what the hell do they know?


Cool, except that does nothing for you in this debate. Read above, you can formulate your own opinion and show how you reached your conclusion, au revoir.

[history2b]

...under the delusion that you are somehow not a troll... :sleep

Like I said, you're not bright enough to understand the implications of game pace...

Rodman was a better rebounder.... that's about it.


The implication that game pace does not dictate superior defense? Easily.

Especially when you consider that what you're talking about is a team oriented goal, not an individual, which is what this topic is about.

In Tim's 13 year career has he ever once been recognized as the games best defender? Nope.

End of thread.

[FromWayDowntown]

Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.

Why are the stats flawed? Please explain, and the answer isn't "Because I have no clue what they mean" or "Because I don't like them" or "Because they don't support my argument."


Back to square one then:

-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman

Statistically true.


-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman

What's your proof of that? Just your flawed opinion?


-Team defense = Rodman by a hair

What's your proof of that? Duncan's teams have been statistically great (and observably great as well) on the defensive end for all but the last 2 years of his career.


-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

Media knows more than coaches? See Bowen.


-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).

Rodman played with Michael Jordan; this is akin to arguing that Robert Horry > Tim Duncan. And it has nothing to do with proving that anyone is a great defender on an individual basis.

[FromWayDowntown]

Cool, except that does nothing for you in this debate. Read above, you can formulate your own opinion and show how you reached your conclusion, au revoir.

Well, it suggests pretty strongly that reliance on who won or didn't win DPOY doesn't necessarily correlate to determining who was the best defensive player in the league in any given year.

[history2b]

I love Spurs trolls...

In a topic about Rodman and Duncan, someone brings up Bruce Bowen and how many 1st place votes he got in DPOY polls.

It's like the need to endlessly pump up a Spur is like breathing around here. If you don't do this, you die.

[ElNono]

LOL ESPN newbs getting their asses handed to them...

:lmao

[FromWayDowntown]

In Tim's 13 year career has he ever once been recognized as the games best defender? Nope.

In every season of Tim's 13 year career, he has been recognized as one of the 4 best defensive forwards in basketball -- and in 8 of those 13 seasons, he's been recognized as one of the 2 best.

In his 12 full seasons in the NBA, Dennis Rodman was so recognized only 8 times altogether and only 7 on the First Team.

[ElNono]

I love Spurs trolls...

In a topic about Rodman and Duncan, someone brings up Bruce Bowen and how many 1st place votes he got in DPOY polls.

It's like the need to endlessly pump up a Spur is like breathing around here. If you don't do this, you die.

And this post contributes to the 'debate' how?

[FromWayDowntown]

I love Spurs trolls...

In a topic about Rodman and Duncan, someone brings up Bruce Bowen and how many 1st place votes he got in DPOY polls.

It's like the need to endlessly pump up a Spur is like breathing around here. If you don't do this, you die.

LOL -- Spurs trolls on a Spurs fan forum.

I'm not making any argument for Bruce Bowen. All I'm saying is that the media voting for DPOY is a pretty shaky barometer to rely upon if you're going to argue that one player was a better defender than another.

[Phenomanul]

Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.

Back to square one then:

-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman
Most statistics would prove this to be true. Even those accounting for pace.


-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.


-Team defense = Rodman by a hair
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.


-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
The point that eluded you earlier was that DPOY awards don't represent the be all, end all metric of defensive criteria... because they are awarded by THE MEDIA...


-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly? No agenda.... Really? :lol


-Rodman has never NOT repeated
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly? I could make the statement that Rodman never led his teams to championships... or garnered MVP awards or Finals MVP awards... but this argument is irrelevant to the comparison of Duncan's and Rodman's defensive impact.


-Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Isaiah Thomas led his Pistons team to 2 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).


-Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Michael Jordan led his Bulls team to 3 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).


-Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.
As subjective a conclusion as this is... it's one that is likely backed by most NBA conosseiurs... Rodman did the most with the tools he was given, due largely to his athletic gifts...



-Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers. :toast

Troll.

[jdiggy0424]

Rodman was a beast when he was on the bad boy pistons. In that type of defensive setting, Rodman was the stopper. But because of his limited offensive repitiore, he only played at the most 30 min a night. However the style of ball that the Bad Boy Pistons played demanded physical and tenacious defense. I think at one point in his 2nd year the dude started the last 45 games of the season, the Pistons finished the season 39-5. Who was the focal point of the defense? Dennis.

In terms of rebounding he posted the highest rebounding average since Wilt in 20 years in 92-93. Dude was also an athletic freak, probably up there with pippen, and could play lock down d in any position.

Sorry Timmy as much as i love you and the Spurs, it would be very biased of me to say that Rodman wasn't the better defender :toast

[galvatron3000]

Duncan, hands down.

[FromWayDowntown]

Troll.

The topic has merit as a good debate. Nothing about raising the question or arguing for Rodman strikes me as being a trolling attempt.

But it's ridiculous that one side of the debate would simply choose to ignore objective evidence that supports the other side, particularly when: (1) that objective evidence is exactly the sort of analysis relied upon more and more frequently by NBA teams in making personnel decisions; and (2) the side rejecting that evidence can't offer anything resembling a meaningful justification for discounting that evidence. It's that part of this thread that is trollish.

I've got money to make. I'm done.

[TwelveGs210]

lmao @ masking the real purpose of this thread with stats that were just googled.

[mudyez]

If you ask me, which player I'd choose to slow down a Karl Malone, Charles Barkley or even LeBron James, I'd had to say Rodman (but not by much).

If you ask me, to choose the guy, that can be the anchor of my (team-)defense, I'd have to go with Duncan (by very much).

That said, Duncan wins it by a landslide...its like comparing Ray Allen to LeBron James and saying: Ray's 3pt shooting is better and he won more championships...so he is the better offensive player!

[jdiggy0424]

Better player tho, Duncan no questions asked :flag:

[mudyez]

lets adress two other issues of the defensive player voting (without telling eveybody how great Bowen was --we know and love him for that--)!

aside from the stat heavy voting that leads shotblockers and steal mashines to get the award...its also important, to have a team, that really suits that particular player:
version1: nicknamed defensive teams like the "badboy pistons", make media feel, one of these players has to get the award, while its a team efford!
version2: lets say it with zo mournings words: "I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them."

second thing: often it feels like the DPOY award is handed to players that are no two way players! guys like Wallace, Rodman, mutombo win it, but even players like Jordon (1) or Kobe (none) had a hard time getting their hands on it (not implementing they should have multiple ones)! while you can make a statement, that some of these players committed so much to the defensive end of the court, I think stuff like that prohibited guys like Duncan (not necessarily he) from winning that hardware.

[tbonewalker]

The topic has merit as a good debate. Nothing about raising the question or arguing for Rodman strikes me as being a trolling attempt.

But it's ridiculous that one side of the debate would simply choose to ignore objective evidence that supports the other side, particularly when: (1) that objective evidence is exactly the sort of analysis relied upon more and more frequently by NBA teams in making personnel decisions; and (2) the side rejecting that evidence can't offer anything resembling a meaningful justification for discounting that evidence. It's that part of this thread that is trollish.

I've got money to make. I'm done.


At least you can see it's not a "troll" attempt. Some people throw that term around too loosely. I'm all for good-spirited debate. Just bring something to the table besides the homer inspired "Duncan easily".

In regards to you being 'done' (in your words), in all honesty, you've been done since I dismissed you with your first "contribution" to this debate.

You offered nothing other than a flawed stat which proved absolutely nothing and thus got you nowhere. You even stated you weren't relying on the flawed Defensive Win Share and Defensive Rating stats, yet you keep trying to fall back on them.

You then went off-topic and started complaining about Bowen never winning DPOY.

Then, what really destroyed your credibility was when you said:

"Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating... is exactly the sort of analysis relied upon more and more frequently by NBA teams in making personnel decisions."

:lmao By all means, FromWayDowntown, have another glass! :toast


NBA Teams rely on Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating to evaluate a player when making personnel decisions?






Bwahahahaha!! And you want me to justify why I laugh and dismiss that pile of crap? Honestly bro...

[tbonewalker]

l
second thing: often it feels like the DPOY award is handed to players that are no two way players! guys like Wallace, Rodman, mutombo win it, but even players like Jordon (1) or Kobe (none) had a hard time getting their hands on it

Ron Artest, Gary Payton?

[Obstructed_View]

Congrats, you are the first person to mention Kobe in this thread. Any clue on how to participate in a good-spirited debate?

But Kobe's the Greatest Closer In The Game©. Why won't you see that?

[mudyez]

Ron Artest, Gary Payton?

Adverb

often (comparative more often or oftener, superlative most often or oftenest)

1. Frequently, many times.

and yeah...I think Artest is part of it!

[tbonewalker]

But Kobe's the Greatest Closer In The Game©. Why won't you see that?

That's arguable, but not the topic. :king

Care to put aside your Laker hate, and participate like a man should be willing and able to?

[mudyez]

NBA Teams rely on Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating to evaluate a player when making personnel decisions?






Bwahahahaha!! And you want me to justify why I laugh and dismiss that pile of crap? Honestly bro...


not the Lakers: they heard Artest won the DPOY award, so they had to get him! It's the way such teams work: No scouting or stat analysing at all...just using Wikipedia to assess players!

[tbonewalker]

not the Lakers: they heard Artest won the DPOY award, so they had to get him! It's the way such teams work: No scouting or stat analysing at all...just using Wikipedia to assess players!

Wrong.

Ariza's agent balked at the Lakers offer and asked for more and so the Lakers looked elsewhere. They called Ron Artest right away because they knew Ron would be an upgrade and would better equip the Lakers for the elite SF's.

But leave it to Spur fans to go off topic again.

Have we reached a conclusion on Rodman/Duncan? I know I have.. and nobody has convinced me otherwise.

[ElNono]

Just a cursory google search (http://myportfolio.usc.edu/kelner/2010/03/a_case_study_conventional_baseball_wisdom_vs_advan ced_statistics.html):


Numbers alone won't turn things around for the Indiana Pacers, but they can play a huge role when properly applied. That's why I'm so excited that the Pacers are working with Kevin Pelton, well regarded APBRmetrician and writer from Basketball Prospectus, to sharpen their decision-making process by utilizing Pelton's analysis.

----------

Another one (http://clipperblog.com/2010/03/09/are-the-clippers-behind-the-curve/)


I spent the weekend at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston. Last year, the same conference was held in a small academic building on the campus of MIT in Cambridge for 400 attendees. This year, the numbers exploded — one thousand individuals wore name tags, along with 400 people on a wait list. Those in Boston included NBA executives and prominent agents. Organizers moved the conference across the Charles River to the Boston Convention Center in order to accommodate the demand.

The substance of the conference was pretty much what you’d expect. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey (the founder of the conference), Analytics godfather Dean Oliver (who works for the Nuggets), Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, Portland Trail Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard, Boston Celtics assistant general manager Mike Zarren and others who apply advanced statistical analytics to better their teams spoke on various panels about the value of this discipline in generating wins. Academics presented papers on everything from the value of a blocked shot to how best to maximize shot distribution among a team’s players.



:lmao zero credibility

[mudyez]

Wrong.

Ariza's agent balked at the Lakers offer and asked for more and so the Lakers looked elsewhere. They called Ron Artest right away because they knew Ron would be an upgrade and would better equip the Lakers for the elite SF's.

But leave it to Spur fans to go off topic again.

Have we reached a conclusion on Rodman/Duncan? I know I have.. and nobody has convinced me otherwise.

that wasnt the point! its just that you are telling us, how big the DPOY award is and that nothing else matters!

and thats why someone brought Bowen up...We also could have it called: Why didnt win Kobe one and Camby did! thats fine!

...and I dont think, anyone wants to convince you by now! If someone just wants to troll...let them troll!

[ElNono]

Have we reached a conclusion on Rodman/Duncan? I know I have.. and nobody has convinced me otherwise.

What you think is irrelevant. We're not here to entertain you.
You either want to debate and willing to accept what others bring to the table, or there's simply no debate and you're just getting your ass handed to you.

Obviously, you picked the latter :lmao

[Killakobe81]

I'd agree, also, that DPOY voting is a pretty bad way to assess players historically. I'm not even sure that it's a particularly good way to assess players in the same year, but from year-to-year it makes little sense at all.

To extrapolate from those advanced metrics I previously cited, Duncan (while never winning DPOY) has led the league in Defensive Rating three times in his career and has led the league in Defensive Win Shares five times. Rodman never led the league in Defensive Rating and led in Defensive Win Shares only once (and that was in a year in which he didn't win DPOY).

Im not a stat guy but rodman's best defensive years were when he played for the pistons as a SF/PF. Back then he wasnt as good a rebounder ...but he could guard everyone from Bird to Karl malone. When he started focusing on being the best rebounder of his generation his defense slipped.
Duncan was much better at guarding true post players and anchoring a team defense. But rodman was more versatile even as his defense slipped. A Pistons Era Rodman is one of the few guys that could bother Karl malone AND chase around a Dirk type PF. But since Duncan was the better defender longer I say Duncan.

[ElNono]

LOL moved to the NBA Forum... :lmao

[tbonewalker]

that wasnt the point! its just that you are telling us, how big the DPOY award is and that nothing else matters!

and thats why someone brought Bowen up...We also could have it called: Why didnt win Kobe one and Camby did! thats fine!

...and I dont think, anyone wants to convince you by now! If someone just wants to troll...let them troll!


You might have a point if I ever stated that 'nothing else matters'.

Go dig around for that statement by me. Let me know when you hit water.

[tbonewalker]

Just a cursory google search (http://myportfolio.usc.edu/kelner/2010/03/a_case_study_conventional_baseball_wisdom_vs_advan ced_statistics.html):


Numbers alone won't turn things around for the Indiana Pacers, but they can play a huge role when properly applied. That's why I'm so excited that the Pacers are working with Kevin Pelton, well regarded APBRmetrician and writer from Basketball Prospectus, to sharpen their decision-making process by utilizing Pelton's analysis.

----------

Another one (http://clipperblog.com/2010/03/09/are-the-clippers-behind-the-curve/)


I spent the weekend at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston. Last year, the same conference was held in a small academic building on the campus of MIT in Cambridge for 400 attendees. This year, the numbers exploded — one thousand individuals wore name tags, along with 400 people on a wait list. Those in Boston included NBA executives and prominent agents. Organizers moved the conference across the Charles River to the Boston Convention Center in order to accommodate the demand.

The substance of the conference was pretty much what you’d expect. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey (the founder of the conference), Analytics godfather Dean Oliver (who works for the Nuggets), Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, Portland Trail Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard, Boston Celtics assistant general manager Mike Zarren and others who apply advanced statistical analytics to better their teams spoke on various panels about the value of this discipline in generating wins. Academics presented papers on everything from the value of a blocked shot to how best to maximize shot distribution among a team’s players.



:lmao zero credibility



LOL, thanks for proving that you have zero credibility. You did the leg work for me.

A quick google search (above) revealed nothing other than the Pacers using "advanced statistics" to accompany their decision making process.

You might have a point if the Pacers were successful in doing so. Too bad they have been on a steady downward spiral just like the Spurs. Maybe the Spurs are using these flawed statistics. That would explain their recent collapse and horrible front office decisions.

How has that worked out for the Pacers? LOL!!!

[mudyez]

dont have to dig around: just quoted it above my statement...go get some goggles! I'm out!

[mudyez]

somewhere a lakers executive is like: "damn, we need to adress our outside defense! but this Gary Payton is the last guard to win the DPOY award! where can I get his number!"

[ElNono]

LOL, thanks for proving that you have zero credibility. You did the leg work for me.

LOL getting owned in your own 'debate' :lmao


A quick google search (above) revealed nothing other than the Pacers using "advanced statistics" to accompany their decision making process.

LOL dumbass can't read. :lmao


You might have a point if the Pacers were successful in doing so. Too bad they have been on a steady downward spiral just like the Spurs. Maybe the Spurs are using these flawed statistics. That would explain their recent collapse and horrible front office decisions.

LOL having to cherry pick the Pacers out of a list of 5 teams :lmao

[tbonewalker]

LOL getting owned in your own 'debate' :lmao



LOL dumbass can't read. :lmao



LOL having to cherry pick the Pacers out of a list of 5 teams :lmao


OK, smart aleck.

Have any of those teams other than Boston won a championship since using these 'advanced statistics'? Next.

And did Boston acquire KG and Ray Allen based upon Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating? Dismissed.

[HarlemHeat37]

Rodman is the more versatile defender and better man defender..he had the ability to defend 3/4/5 and even the 2 at times, he was great at playing mind games..Timmy was a great man defender for years, but his individual D has been just "good" for a while now..he has had to move over to defend 5s instead of 4s due to his diminished quickness, something Rodman never really had to do..

As an anchor, I don't really see how it's debatable..Duncan is obviously the better defensive anchor..

As an overall defender, it obviously depends on what you need..cliche answer, but there is no other answer IMO..

Rodman is one of the most overrated players in NBA history though..I hate when he's compared to players like Duncan, because his role was so much different, and his responsibilities were much less important..he was a defender and rebounder..Duncan is/was a defender/defensive anchor, a rebounder, the primary option on offense for scoring and even passing for years, a leadership role..

While Rodman is an athletic freak and a great player, he always had less responsibility than guys like Duncan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq and others..

[Killakobe81]

Rodman is the more versatile defender and better man defender..he had the ability to defend 3/4/5 and even the 2 at times, he was great at playing mind games..Timmy was a great man defender for years, but his individual D has been just "good" for a while now..he has had to move over to defend 5s instead of 4s due to his diminished quickness, something Rodman never really had to do..

As an anchor, I don't really see how it's debatable..Duncan is obviously the better defensive anchor..

As an overall defender, it obviously depends on what you need..cliche answer, but there is no other answer IMO..

Rodman is one of the most overrated players in NBA history though..I hate when he's compared to players like Duncan, because his role was so much different, and his responsibilities were much less important..he was a defender and rebounder..Duncan is/was a defender/defensive anchor, a rebounder, the primary option on offense for scoring and even passing for years, a leadership role..

While Rodman is an athletic freak and a great player, he always had less responsibility than guys like Duncan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq and others..

Agreed. They are very different. Duncan's role was to anchor the entire defense and help. While Rodman focused more on his own matchup. I think at their primes Rodman was the better 1 on 1 defender though and always took the best player at 4 or 5 while at times duncan was hidden from that guy so he can help others which many coaches do with their stars especially when they are scorers like Tim. I just think duncan had a more instrumental role defensively on the spurs best teams than rodman. Also, Rodman's defense was overrated vastly by his bulls days ...Duncan's impact on defense has just started slipping the past two seasons or so ...

[JamStone]

Whether the OP is just a troll and regardless of the initial agenda, I think the topic is actually a worthwhile discussion.

A few things I would comment before saying who I think is the better defender. Dennis has a reputation as a rebounding stat-padder who would compromise his defense in order to rack up rebounds. I don't think that was the case for most of his career. Perhaps in San Antonio (admittedly I didn't watch many of his games when he played for the Spurs) or in his last few seasons with the Bulls, which may very well be the case. But in his prime with the Pistons, he wasn't trying to stat-pad for more rebounds, at least not most of the time from what I saw. His rebounding was invaluable to closing out defensive possessions.

As far as defensive rating goes, which Duncan clearly has the edge, it's a little skewed. Dennis Rodman was often put on the best offensive player regardless of position on the opposing team. He generally had a tougher job throughout the game than Duncan would have. Not that Duncan would never take the toughest big man match-up, but we all know the drill with Pop and how he would keep Duncan off the better scoring big man to keep him out of foul trouble so Duncan could then switch onto that scoring big late in games. So while Duncan may have that duty for 10-15 MPG, Rodman was tested defensively for 30 MPG on most nights. Defensive Rating doesn't take that into consideration.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the 2003-04 Spurs where Bowen had what is regarded his best defensive season. That season, Bowen had a Defensive Rating of 97. But look at his teammates Manu Ginobili and Hedo Turkoglu. Ginobili's DR was 93 and Hedo's DR was 94 that season. So were Ginobili and Hedo better defenders than Bowen that season? Or was it rather the fact that Bowen had the task of guarding the best perimeter player on opposing teams? Just something to think about when you compare Defensive Ratings between Rodman and Duncan.

I think Rodman was certainly the most versatile defender. Similar to guys like KG or Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Rodman was given different defensive duties, sometimes a really tough PG match-up like Magic all the way to a young Shaquille O'Neal and every position in between. Duncan guards centers and power forwards. That's it.

Now all that said, you might think I'd give the edge to Rodman. No. The better defender is/was Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan's value to the Spurs defense goes beyond statistics. His presence in the paint deters and alters scoring opportunities. Especially in a Pop schemed defense, Duncan anchors the entire defense. Rodman was entrusted on any given night to stop one player. Duncan (and this goes for any great defensive big man) is entrusted to anchor the entire defense and stop any player on the opposing team in the paint, whether by blocking shots, taking up space, communicating to teammates, closing the lane, and closing out defensive possessions with securing rebounds. His value to a defense had greater impact than Dennis'. Dennis wasn't an elite low post defender (although still very good) or a great shotblocker. He was great at taking charges, switching on picks, and just being a pest in general. But his defensive value beyond rebounding generally involved stopping one player. Duncan, again like most great defensive big man, had the responsibility of anchoring the entire defense and stopping the entire opposing team when they were in the paint or around the rim. To me, I value that more.

It's a good debate though, and I think it's close than most Spurs fans would probably realize or admit. But Duncan is the better defender. Compare Duncan to guys like Hakeem or Ben Wallace, it's not contest. Duncan would lose that comparison. But against Rodman, I think Duncan was the better defender.

[TD 21]

It's real simple. Because of Duncan's vastly superior height and length, he could impact the game more defensively, which makes him the better defender. There's nothing more valuable defensively than an elite anchor.

Why do you think Howard is widely considered to be the best defensive player in the game today?

Harlem makes an excellent point about Rodman having had far less responsibility than Duncan, which allowed him to focus virtually all of his energy on defense and rebounding.

[Killakobe81]

Whether the OP is just a troll and regardless of the initial agenda, I think the topic is actually a worthwhile discussion.

A few things I would comment before saying who I think is the better defender. Dennis has a reputation as a rebounding stat-padder who would compromise his defense in order to rack up rebounds. I don't think that was the case for most of his career. Perhaps in San Antonio (admittedly I didn't watch many of his games when he played for the Spurs) or in his last few seasons with the Bulls, which may very well be the case. But in his prime with the Pistons, he wasn't trying to stat-pad for more rebounds, at least not most of the time from what I saw. His rebounding was invaluable to closing out defensive possessions.
As far as defensive rating goes, which Duncan clearly has the edge, it's a little skewed. Dennis Rodman was often put on the best offensive player regardless of position on the opposing team. He generally had a tougher job throughout the game than Duncan would have. Not that Duncan would never take the toughest big man match-up, but we all know the drill with Pop and how he would keep Duncan off the better scoring big man to keep him out of foul trouble so Duncan could then switch onto that scoring big late in games. So while Duncan may have that duty for 10-15 MPG, Rodman was tested defensively for 30 MPG on most nights. Defensive Rating doesn't take that into consideration.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the 2003-04 Spurs where Bowen had what is regarded his best defensive season. That season, Bowen had a Defensive Rating of 97. But look at his teammates Manu Ginobili and Hedo Turkoglu. Ginobili's DR was 93 and Hedo's DR was 94 that season. So were Ginobili and Hedo better defenders than Bowen that season? Or was it rather the fact that Bowen had the task of guarding the best perimeter player on opposing teams? Just something to think about when you compare Defensive Ratings between Rodman and Duncan.

I think Rodman was certainly the most versatile defender. Similar to guys like KG or Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Rodman was given different defensive duties, sometimes a really tough PG match-up like Magic all the way to a young Shaquille O'Neal and every position in between. Duncan guards centers and power forwards. That's it.

Now all that said, you might think I'd give the edge to Rodman. No. The better defender is/was Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan's value to the Spurs defense goes beyond statistics. His presence in the paint deters and alters scoring opportunities. Especially in a Pop schemed defense, Duncan anchors the entire defense. Rodman was entrusted on any given night to stop one player. Duncan (and this goes for any great defensive big man) is entrusted to anchor the entire defense and stop any player on the opposing team in the paint, whether by blocking shots, taking up space, communicating to teammates, closing the lane, and closing out defensive possessions with securing rebounds. His value to a defense had greater impact than Dennis'. Dennis wasn't an elite low post defender (although still very good) or a great shotblocker. He was great at taking charges, switching on picks, and just being a pest in general. But his defensive value beyond rebounding generally involved stopping one player. Duncan, again like most great defensive big man, had the responsibility of anchoring the entire defense and stopping the entire opposing team when they were in the paint or around the rim. To me, I value that more.

It's a good debate though, and I think it's close than most Spurs fans would probably realize or admit. But Duncan is the better defender. Compare Duncan to guys like Hakeem or Ben Wallace, it's not contest. Duncan would lose that comparison. But against Rodman, I think Duncan was the better defender.

Agreed. great post. Like i said ...Pistons rodman>>>Bulls>Spur rodman ...

[JamStone]

Rodman is one of the most overrated players in NBA history though..I hate when he's compared to players like Duncan, because his role was so much different, and his responsibilities were much less important..he was a defender and rebounder..Duncan is/was a defender/defensive anchor, a rebounder, the primary option on offense for scoring and even passing for years, a leadership role..

While Rodman is an athletic freak and a great player, he always had less responsibility than guys like Duncan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq and others..

In his Pistons days, Rodman did not only focus on rebounding. He was often given the responsibility of guarding the best offensive player, sometimes guys smaller and quicker than him or much bigger and stronger than him. That in itself is quite the task. And as I just mentioned above, guys like Duncan or Shaq would often be given a break defensively at least to the extent they wouldn't guard the best scoring big man on the opposing teams for most of the game to save them from foul trouble and to keep them fresh for offense. It's a little disingenuous to minimize Rodman's impact because he wasn't much of an offensive player. He rebounded at an unbelievable rate early on in his career even when he carried those primary defensive responsibilities as a "stopper."

[Darrin]

Rodman because he was all over the court. I love TD, but he can't guard a prime Gary Payton.

[HarlemHeat37]

In his Pistons days, Rodman did not only focus on rebounding. He was often given the responsibility of guarding the best offensive player, sometimes guys smaller and quicker than him or much bigger and stronger than him. That in itself is quite the task. And as I just mentioned above, guys like Duncan or Shaq would often be given a break defensively at least to the extent they wouldn't guard the best scoring big man on the opposing teams for most of the game to save them from foul trouble and to keep them fresh for offense. It's a little disingenuous to minimize Rodman's impact because he wasn't much of an offensive player. He rebounded at an unbelievable rate early on in his career even when he carried those primary defensive responsibilities as a "stopper."

And that's why Rodman is a great player..he had a unique ability to combine all of the traits you mentioned, he had unbelievable athleticism and stamina..

However, do you really believe it's comparable to carrying the load offensively, while also being the defensive anchor and rebounder on the team?..I don't think it's comparable, and I don't think I'm insulting Rodman by making a statement of that kind..

[JamStone]

Is it comparable? I would say no.

Does it make him as overrated as you suggest? I would say no to that as well.

His responsibilities as a defender was an extremely difficult task. Think about guys like Bruce Bowen or Ron Artest. Give that to Rodman, but add to that fact that his defensive responsibilities sometimes included guarding the likes of Shaquille O'Neal or Karl Malone and not just the Kobes or T-Macs Bowen and Artest had to deal with. Moreover, add to that fact that Rodman was still asked to grab 15-18 rebounds a night.

You make it seem like the fact that he had little offensive responsibility and could focus just on defense and rebounding meant he isn't nearly as great as he's regarded. I certainly challenge that notion.

[DPG21920]

The fact people on ST reply to this stuff seriously continues to blow my mind.

[ElNono]

Have any of those teams other than Boston won a championship since using these 'advanced statistics'? Next.

Irrelevant. LOL @ moving the goalposts now that you got owned.

So now you agree that some NBA teams do use advanced statistics as part of their decision process...

:lmao zero credibility...


And did Boston acquire KG and Ray Allen based upon Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating? Dismissed.

Please describe what the Boston Celtics decision process is. Be specific.

[JamStone]

The fact people on ST reply to this stuff seriously continues to blow my mind.

The topic is actually a good debate though, regardless if it started as a troll thread.

[Sense]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

[JamStone]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

Disagree.

[ElNono]

However, do you really believe it's comparable to carrying the load offensively, while also being the defensive anchor and rebounder on the team?..I don't think it's comparable, and I don't think I'm insulting Rodman by making a statement of that kind..

This. To me it's Duncan because he was able to do it for longer and at the same time having to work hard carrying the team on the other end also.

That doesn't mean Rodman wasn't a beast. To me he was hands down the best rebounder I've ever seen. Better than TD on that. That said, if you're looking at the complete career body of work, I think Duncan edges out.

[midnightpulp]

Lol Shaolin Faggot from the ESPN boards.

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of fun here. There's plenty of other Lakers homers for you to engage in sexual activity with.

Hit up Koolaid_Man and Lakaluva.

[Koolaid_Man]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

I don't give a shit what stats you post. The most important thing is that Duncan is done...His career is on the deep incline...Title Contending days are over...that is all that I care about...:toast

[Purch]

Did I just hear someone say Rodman wasn't a good defender.

Wow.

[Nathan89]

If rodman was a better defender it is because he didn't do shit on offense.

[Koolaid_Man]

Right off the bat I want to say Welcome to the good-spirited Better Defender debate. Please, only pure basketball reasoning to back up your opinion. No agendas, baby.

Dennis Rodman / Tim Duncan

Better defensive PF?

Defensive Rebounding = Rodman

Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman

Team defense = Rodman by a hair

Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).

Rodman has never NOT repeated

Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit

Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls

Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.


Am I saying it's a landslide? No, not entirely, although it may look that way based on facts laid out above.


-Duncan was the better shot blocker (which doesn't make up for everything else Rodman is better at on Defense). Duncan averaged one more block than Rodman. This makes much more sense when you look a little deeper though. Something to remember is that Duncan get's a lot of his blocks from the weakside, hardly ever gets blocks on his own man. Not chopping his legs off here, just stating a fact. :-)


-Duncan played more minutes than Rodman. Even out those minutes and Rodman's "stats" are much more impressive.

I say Rodman...hands down; however, and it's a big however,

To be "fair" in my assessment - all bullshit aside here..on tha real...Rodman had an unfair advantage. It is commonly known amongst NBA players during his era that he would use "sexual tactics" on the court that allowed him to dominate the boards.

Why do you think Alonzo Mourning would completely lose it when he played Rodman...Let me explain.

I will give you an example: Zo comes down he posts up Rodman and as he's backing him down or backs into him Rodman's dick is on hard and he whispers in Zo's ear: " Did you feel all that meat Zo". Zo would go ape shit nuts and lose his mind. Rodman did this frequently against opponents and it allowed him to clear space because most people didn't really want to fuck with him and his crazy ass antics. But that nigga got the job done and I'd pick him just to check Duncan and I think he'd easily render Duncan's game lame. -- no shit real talk...:lol

This fight was much more than what your eyes can see:
ZwX7f-XZQiI

[Chieflion]

They have DPOYs, so they must be the best defensive player in the league argument can only be presented by idiots like this tool. And what does championships have to do with how great a defender is? Props to FromWayDowntown for shitting on this pathetic troll.

Like Jamstone, I also think this is a worthwhile debate. As a defensive anchor, this is not even close. Is Duncan able to chase guards around the court? I don't think so, but Rodman can. Is that what an anchor traditionally does? An interior defensive anchor needs to provide interior help defense and seal off the paint, not allowing easy scores. Tim Duncan easily does this better than Rodman, which is why he is a better defensive player.

Yes, people like to point out that Tim Duncan had Bruce Bowen beside him and early in his career, David Robinson. Forget David Robinson, Duncan's best defensive year came the year after Robinson retired. So, his best defensive year, had Bruce Bowen. Let's not act like Rodman has never been a part of David Robinson's Spurs. His DRtg is a mediocre 100 on David Robinson's Spurs, when compared to great defensive players.

Rodman, as good as a defender he was, never achieved lesser than a DRtg than 95. Jamstone said that the rating is influenced by his other teammates' themselves, which I don't disagree with. But his teammates on the Bad Boy Pistons, Jamstone would know better than me, David Robinson's Spurs, David Robinson was an excellent defensive anchor, so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates. Rodman was also on the 3-peat Bulls like the idiot OP pointed out, they had Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan on the perimeter, though past their prime were still terrific defenders (Pippen specifically) so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates there too.

[hitmanyr2k]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

Nah. Duncan doesn't have the athleticism or lateral movement to play the kind of defense Dennis did during his career. Offense or no offense I don't think you'd see any difference in Duncan's defense. He was never asked to do the same things as Dennis and even if he were asked I don't think he could.

[hitmanyr2k]

They have DPOYs, so they must be the best defensive player in the league argument can only be presented by idiots like this tool. And what does championships have to do with how great a defender is? Props to FromWayDowntown for shitting on this pathetic troll.

Like Jamstone, I also think this is a worthwhile debate. As a defensive anchor, this is not even close. Is Duncan able to chase guards around the court? I don't think so, but Rodman can. Is that what an anchor traditionally does? An interior defensive anchor needs to provide interior help defense and seal off the paint, not allowing easy scores. Tim Duncan easily does this better than Rodman, which is why he is a better defensive player.

Yes, people like to point out that Tim Duncan had Bruce Bowen beside him and early in his career, David Robinson. Forget David Robinson, Duncan's best defensive year came the year after Robinson retired. So, his best defensive year, had Bruce Bowen. Let's not act like Rodman has never been a part of David Robinson's Spurs. His DRtg is a mediocre 100 on David Robinson's Spurs, when compared to great defensive players.

Rodman, as good as a defender he was, never achieved lesser than a DRtg than 95. Jamstone said that the rating is influenced by his other teammates' themselves, which I don't disagree with. But his teammates on the Bad Boy Pistons, Jamstone would know better than me, David Robinson's Spurs, David Robinson was an excellent defensive anchor, so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates. Rodman was also on the 3-peat Bulls like the idiot OP pointed out, they had Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan on the perimeter, though past their prime were still terrific defenders (Pippen specifically) so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates there too.

A defensive rating of 100 is damn good. There's nothing mediocre about it. In fact it's excellent for guys of Rodman's size or perimeter players. I don't see how in the hell you could ask Rodman to have a defensive rating of below 95 :lol It's unheard of for guys his size to have a defensive rating that great. That kind of rating is usually reserved for seven foot centers.

[ezau]

Yeah, yeah, we get it OP. You want to troll us and say that the Rodman was clearly the better player than Duncan. Does that mean that Rodman is now the greatest power forward of all time? tee, hee

[Drachen]

All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.

Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.

That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me :lmao

Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.

Hah, this guy is funny, deriding someone using stats in a "debate" where stats are really the only thing he relied on.

[ezau]

Rodman is now the greatest power forward of all time because he's got 5 rings to Duncan's 4. That means Robert Horry>MJ>Kobe>Duncan, tee, hee. Horrible troll attempt IMHO

[tbonewalker]

Also, Duncan is not even the best defensive big man of his era. KG and Ben Wallace are ahead of him. And Rodman was better than both of those guys. Sorry Spur fags, you guys have lost another one, and have once again failed.

Sup lakaluva? :toast

lakaluva IN THE HOUSE!!!!

I created this thread because I knew it was a good topic and turns out it is very telling. By telling I mean it revealed who is a homer and who can recognize game.

[adidas11]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

"Greater defensive impact" = Duncan


As a power forward/center, Duncan is naturally going to have more of an impact on the defensive end of the court. Being 7 ft tall, Duncan can block shots and alter shots, provide more presence in the paint, provide better help defense, and help clog the lane. Any 7 ft center with decent athletic ability is going to have a big impact. Which is why 7 ft centers are paid so much in the NBA. They don't grow on trees.


But as far as being a better defender, Rodman wins this debate. At least, back when he was playing for the Pistons. Rodman was a committed defender, who had the lateral movement to stay with two guards, and enough athletic ability and strength to defend against power forwards and centers. The guy was a buzz of energy on the defensive end, always coming up with big rebounds (remember when he was the 6th man of the year, and even though his total rebounds in a game weren't as high, his rebound rate per minute was astounding)

I don't think that Duncan was ever considered a great one on one defensive player. Decent post players could always score against Duncan. But I always saw Duncan in the same light as Larry Bird. As a great help and team defender, but with added height.

[The Franchise]

Rodman was a better defender, but Duncan was the better player.

[O.J Mayo]

Lets see what happens when tbonefaggot finds out that lakaluva is a stinky faggot paki who pretends to be a black all-american athlete who engages in sexual activities with Koolaid_fag.

[tbonewalker]

Yeah, yeah, we get it OP. You want to troll us and say that the Rodman was clearly the better player than Duncan. Does that mean that Rodman is now the greatest power forward of all time? tee, hee


Dude, no. While I'm glad you've admitted Rodman is better defensively, you took it too far by insinuating Dennis is the greatest PF of all time.

Offense is not part of this thread topic. Want to debate Rodman vs Duncan on offense? OK!!! LMAO Then go start your thread. Personally, I don't think thats a very intriguing topic.

This one, on the other hand... :king

[tbonewalker]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

But as far as being a better defender, Rodman wins this debate.


Preach on brotha! Agreed.

Spur fans inevitable take everything from a Laker fan as an attack on their hero, but in this case, it's just a semi-revealing good-spirited debate.

[tbonewalker]

LMAO........

Like how Kobe Bryant "dragged" his nuts across the face of Spur nation in the 08 (and '01) WCF?:rollin

[ElNono]

It's never good spirits with me. I'm always trying to drag these bastards through the mud. This is why they are so sensitive and uptight... always clinching their assholes.

Ya... that's why Paki is attention whoring in a Spurs forum... :rolleyes

TBH, if you don't like the people around here, you can head back to LG with the rest of the post-Gasol frontrunning Laker doucheys... or join tretard on the ESPN forums...

[ElNono]

LMAO........

Like how Kobe Bryant "dragged" his nuts across the face of Spur nation in the 08 (and '01) WCF?:rollin

http://fourhorsementattoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/kobe-crying.jpg

Yah... looks like he choked on Duncan's nutsack...

[Sigz]

As seen from Bruce Bowen being constantly SHAFTED from a DPOY award, that award rarely goes to the BEST defensive player in the league.

[ezau]

Considering he's the better defensive player according to Laker fags, I wonder how many rings Rodman won with the Admiral when he was still playing for the Spurs. tee, hee

[ezau]

If Rodman was really the once-in-a-generation defensive force that people claim him to be, why the hell did he get faceraped by Olajuwon in the 94-95 NBA playoffs? tee, hee

[Nahtanoj]

Rodman is the more versatile defender, he can guard the 2 through 5 positions and provide energy to the entire arena like no other.

Duncan anchors the Spurs defense and plays both ends on the floor, you can't compare to two of them.

Ben Wallace versus Rodman would be a better argument.

[Nahtanoj]

If Rodman was really the once-in-a-generation defensive force that people claim him to be, why the hell did he get faceraped by Olajuwon in the 94-95 NBA playoffs? tee, hee

It was Robinson who got face raped.

[Nathan89]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

"Greater defensive impact" = Duncan


.

Sounds good to me. As long as duncan is the most impactful.

[ezau]

It was Robinson who got face raped.

Knowing that Robinson can't handle Olajuwon, why didn't Rodman take the challenge to stop Olajuwon? Maybe Rodman wasn't really that good of a defensive force to begin with. tee, hee

[HarlemHeat37]

Laker fans love Rodman and Pippen..I wonder why, TBH..

[ezau]

Rodman is the more versatile defender, he can guard the 2 through 5 positions and provide energy to the entire arena like no other.

Duncan anchors the Spurs defense and plays both ends on the floor, you can't compare to two of them.

Ben Wallace versus Rodman would be a better argument.

Olajuwon ate Rodman for breakfast, son.

[ezau]

TBH, based on most of the posts I've seen on several forums, Laker fans love Rodman and Pippen..you can figure out why..

Back in the 90s, 85 percent of Laker fans were Bulls fans. :toast

[HarlemHeat37]

Back in the 90s, 85 percent of Laker fans were Bulls fans. :toast

No, see: Jordan vs. Kobe..

[JamStone]

If Rodman was really the once-in-a-generation defensive force that people claim him to be, why the hell did he get faceraped by Olajuwon in the 94-95 NBA playoffs? tee, hee

Because in 1994 and 1995, Hakeem Olajuwon was a once-in-a-generation unstoppable offensive force. Some regard Hakeem of the mid 1990s as the perfect and complete basketball player. No one was stopping Hakeem in those seasons. Not Rodman. Not Robinson. Not Bill Russell. Not Duncan. Not Ben Wallace. Not Alonzo Mourning. Not KG. Not Wilt. No one. That's why.

Besides that, Hakeem had 4-5 inches and about 40-50 lbs. on Rodman. So not only was he already an unstoppable offensive force, he had height, length, and strength on Rodman. David Robinson was a DPOY winner himself and was taller, longer, and stronger and had quickness for his size. That's why D-Rob was the better player to match-up against Hakeem than Dennis. Neither one of them could contain Hakeem back then.

[ezau]

Because in 1994 and 1995, Hakeem Olajuwon was a once-in-a-generation unstoppable offensive force. Some regard Hakeem of the mid 1990s as the perfect and complete basketball player. No one was stopping Hakeem in those seasons. Not Rodman. Not Robinson. Not Bill Russell. Not Duncan. Not Ben Wallace. Not Alonzo Mourning. Not KG. Not Wilt. No one. That's why.

Besides that, Hakeem had 4-5 inches and about 40-50 lbs. on Rodman. So not only was he already an unstoppable offensive force, he had height, length, and strength on Rodman. David Robinson was a DPOY winner himself and was taller, longer, and stronger and had quickness for his size. That's why D-Rob was the better player to match-up against Hakeem than Dennis. Neither one of them could contain Hakeem back then.

So the point is, Rodman was never really the great defensive force to begin with. Thanks for clarifying that Jamstone. Point is, Duncan would have done a better job limiting Hakeem's production, than that psychopath Rodman.

[HarlemHeat37]

That doesn't make any sense, ezau:lol..

[JamStone]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

"Greater defensive impact" = Duncan


As a power forward/center, Duncan is naturally going to have more of an impact on the defensive end of the court. Being 7 ft tall, Duncan can block shots and alter shots, provide more presence in the paint, provide better help defense, and help clog the lane. Any 7 ft center with decent athletic ability is going to have a big impact. Which is why 7 ft centers are paid so much in the NBA. They don't grow on trees.

That's a pretty strong argument.

But it's not just having the opportunity to have more impact. For example, Samuel Dalembert is a 7-foot athletic center who is a presence in the paint with help defense, shot blocking, and rebounding. But I wouldn't say he's a better defender than Rodman simply because he has the opportunity for more impact.

Duncan in his prime actually maximized his opportunity to impact the game defensively more than any regular athletic 7 footer. Dalembert doesn't anchor a defense to make the entire defense better. Duncan's presence does that. so it's not just having more impact.

And being a "more versatile defender" doesn't necessarily mean better either. Rodman was definitely more versatile. I'm watching the Yankees-Twins game right now, so I'll use this analogy. A pitcher might have a "versatile" repertoire of pitches. Maybe he has a mid 90s fastball, a wicked slider, plus curve, and plus change-up. Maybe that slider is one of the best in the majors, like Rodman was one of the best rebounder in the game in his prime. But then you have a guy like Mariano Rivera. He is not a versatile pitcher. He has one pitch, the cut fastball. But throughout his career, he's used that one pitch to be about as dominant as a closer could be. Is the pitcher with the versatile arsenal of pitches better than Rivera who only has one pitch? Versatility doesn't make a defender better.

[TD 21]

Because in 1994 and 1995, Hakeem Olajuwon was a once-in-a-generation unstoppable offensive force. Some regard Hakeem of the mid 1990s as the perfect and complete basketball player. No one was stopping Hakeem in those seasons. Not Rodman. Not Robinson. Not Bill Russell. Not Duncan. Not Ben Wallace. Not Alonzo Mourning. Not KG. Not Wilt. No one. That's why.

Besides that, Hakeem had 4-5 inches and about 40-50 lbs. on Rodman. So not only was he already an unstoppable offensive force, he had height, length, and strength on Rodman. David Robinson was a DPOY winner himself and was taller, longer, and stronger and had quickness for his size. That's why D-Rob was the better player to match-up against Hakeem than Dennis. Neither one of them could contain Hakeem back then.

Not to diminish what Olajuwon did in those years, but I think they've become slightly overblown in time. He put up insane scoring numbers, particularly for a big man, but if you go back and look at those box scores, the guy had a lot of games during those runs where he shot close to 30 times a game and was almost without fail over 20. With his size, athleticism and skill, shooting that much, he should have been scoring at or near the rate he was.

I realize what he did in the playoffs separated him from Robinson and I'm not going to dispute that, but non-Spurs fans have seemingly forgotten how good Robinson was. He was right there (regular season) with Olajuwon in those years and was actually superior to him in some. Advanced stats bear that out.

Some still claim Garnett is better than Duncan or think it's at least close, but rare is the person that acknowledges that the gap between Olajuwon and Robinson wasn't nearly as wide as popular belief would have you believe.

[phyzik]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

"Greater defensive impact" = Duncan


As a power forward/center, Duncan is naturally going to have more of an impact on the defensive end of the court. Being 7 ft tall, Duncan can block shots and alter shots, provide more presence in the paint, provide better help defense, and help clog the lane. Any 7 ft center with decent athletic ability is going to have a big impact. Which is why 7 ft centers are paid so much in the NBA. They don't grow on trees.


But as far as being a better defender, Rodman wins this debate. At least, back when he was playing for the Pistons. Rodman was a committed defender, who had the lateral movement to stay with two guards, and enough athletic ability and strength to defend against power forwards and centers. The guy was a buzz of energy on the defensive end, always coming up with big rebounds (remember when he was the 6th man of the year, and even though his total rebounds in a game weren't as high, his rebound rate per minute was astounding)

I don't think that Duncan was ever considered a great one on one defensive player. Decent post players could always score against Duncan. But I always saw Duncan in the same light as Larry Bird. As a great help and team defender, but with added height.

I agree with this post. Rodman was the better defender... Duncan has more impact though. Nothing wrong with that. But its a small gap between the 2 as straight up defenders.

A better discussion on this would be who was better between Rodman and Bowen. Rodman was great at rebounding, he had an eye for the ball and a go-get-it attitude.... but I think Bruce Bowen was better when it comes to straight up defense on the ball.

Rodman was relevant as a defender for a few years and mainly got his cred from rebounds, Bowen made a career out of defending the best the league had to offer for his entire stint with the Spurs and limiting them quite effectively.... Nash, Kobe, LeQuit, Ray Allen, Dirk, you name them, he defended them at one point or another, and effectively nutralized them at least once in any given game. His effectiveness on defense was noticable to even the fair weather fan, he was literally a game changer. It was like night and day on some occasions.... A player would be "going off" and Pop would stick Bowen on the guy, and all of the sudden that player would shut down almost completely to the point it made you think it was just dumb luck, but he was so consistant doing it to the top scorers of the league it almost looked like a scripted wrestling match where the unassuming David defeated the giant Goliath, and he did it more times than I can remember......

The only other person that can be compared to Bruce's effectiveness is Ron Artest, who is losing a step defensively and hasnt done it nearly as long as Bruce did. When Bruce was forced to retire, he was still a top 5 defender in the league.... The Spurs did him wrong IMHO in that trade for Dick, but its a business...

I bet he could still be playing if he really wanted to... The man is a freak of nature.

[ynh]

Rodman.. there really isn't any debate if people saw the two throughout their career. Rodman could defend every position on the court and do it well.

I can't believe some on here said he was a great rebounder but not a great defender.. I'm guessing these people are just looking up stats and never watched him play in Det.. or Chi.. Or San but I don't think he gave a crap while he was there.

[ynh]

second thing: often it feels like the DPOY award is handed to players that are no two way players! guys like Wallace, Rodman, mutombo win it, but even players like Jordon (1) or Kobe (none) had a hard time getting their hands on it (not implementing they should have multiple ones)! while you can make a statement, that some of these players committed so much to the defensive end of the court, I think stuff like that prohibited guys like Duncan (not necessarily he) from winning that hardware.


That's a hollow argument.. Unless you think KG, Howard, Hakeem, Artest, Mourning, Payton, Robinson didn't have good offensive games. All those people were two way players.. and of course Jordan, though you mentioned him.

[ynh]

If anything Duncan would of had a much better chance.. it isn't that it favors one way players it is that it favors bigs. That is the only thing it tends to favor.

[Sportstudi]

Im not a stat guy but rodman's best defensive years were when he played for the pistons as a SF/PF. Back then he wasnt as good a rebounder ...but he could guard everyone from Bird to Karl malone. When he started focusing on being the best rebounder of his generation his defense slipped.
Duncan was much better at guarding true post players and anchoring a team defense. But rodman was more versatile even as his defense slipped. A Pistons Era Rodman is one of the few guys that could bother Karl malone AND chase around a Dirk type PF. But since Duncan was the better defender longer I say Duncan.

This. If you talk about Rodman's years with SA or the Bulls, he was a rebounding machine, but his defense slipped. If you take those years, I would say Duncan. However, Rodman's best years as a defender were with Detroit. He was an absolute lock down defender, able to guard anyone on the court. He was able to get under the skin of the opponent and into the head as well. And if you take the years with Detroit, he was a better defender than Duncan.

[LkrFan]

If Rodman was really the once-in-a-generation defensive force that people claim him to be, why the hell did he get faceraped by Olajuwon in the 94-95 NBA playoffs? tee, hee
Uh, that was David "MVP" Robinson that got tea-bagged by the Dream that year. :toast

[mudyez]

nice discussion by now...let's thank the troll for it!

lets put together some facts that we know by now (or at least, which I agree a lot on):

1) championships don't count as argument for how great a defensive player is: some put it in as an argument for Rodman over Duncan...then tell us, KG is a better defender than Duncan!...so what?)

2) DPOY-awards shouldn't count in this depate: (putting Bowen at side) the award goes to the guy, that statwise/marketingwise looks as the best defensive player. I dont like overvalueing stats, but they show more than the media voting! if anything, the coaches voting is interesting for this debate.

3) Rodman is the more versatile defender!...BUT does it make him the better defender? IMHO it should count a bit, as Duncan had problems with guys like Dirk and often its nice to have a versatile defender (like we had with Bowen). But don't act, like Rodman defended himself 4 players at a time. I'm fine with Duncan vs. Malone, without the versatility beeing able to take over on Russel for a while.

4) As a one on one defender Rodman is better, even if you trow in an opponent like Malone that should suit both Duncan and Rodman...But its not like Duncan is way worse.

5) Duncan is the better defensive anchor on a team: I could see a league worst defense team with Rodman on it (surounded by guys like Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire and so on) but its hard to believe a Duncan lead team, would be worse than average with him helping out, closing the lane and so on.

Overall I could even live with saying Rodman was the better defender! If you put a defensive all time team together, Rodman has a great shot making it (next to guys like Bowen, Johnson, Cooper, Russell), while Duncan may not make it (but still has a good shot).

for that matter: what would that team look like IYO? 12 men...all time!

But if there was a draft and the task would be: "Put together the best defensive team possible...Offense doesn't count at all!" I'd take several players over Rodman (and also Bowen), with Duncan beeing one of them!

[mudyez]

Uh, that was David "MVP" Robinson that got tea-bagged by the Dream that year. :toast

problem is: Rodman was on the team too and I cant even remember if he tried it himself!

It's like calling Jason Kidd a choker while celebrating Keith van Horn!

[Nahtanoj]

problem is: Rodman was on the team too and I cant even remember if he tried it himself!

It's like calling Jason Kidd a choker while celebrating Keith van Horn!

It was ezau who brought up the 1995 series claiming Rodman was the one getting raped by Olajuwon ... people responded by telling him to get his facts right. As for your observation, you'd have to ask Bob Hill about that.

And lol @ Kidd/Van Horn analogy.

[ynh]

If we don't care about offense...

PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Russel
---
Hakeem
Ben Wallace
Micheal Cooper
Jery West
Payton
Chamberlain
Moncrief
Bowen
Mourning

[Nahtanoj]

Illegal defense man to man handchecking era? Payton, Pippen, Jordan, Rodman, Olajuwon.

[mudyez]

If we don't care about offense...

PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Russel
---
Hakeem
Ben Wallace
Micheal Cooper
Jery West
Payton
Chamberlain
Moncrief
Bowen
Mourning

Stockton?

OK, he was a good defender (pesky), but as the starter on a defense only team? I dont see it!

I like most others but wasn't there any place for Dennis Johnson?

[Killakobe81]

It seems to me that people are confusing "better defender" with "greater defensive impact".

"Better defender" = Rodman in his prime (Pistons days)

"Greater defensive impact" = Duncan


As a power forward/center, Duncan is naturally going to have more of an impact on the defensive end of the court. Being 7 ft tall, Duncan can block shots and alter shots, provide more presence in the paint, provide better help defense, and help clog the lane. Any 7 ft center with decent athletic ability is going to have a big impact. Which is why 7 ft centers are paid so much in the NBA. They don't grow on trees.


But as far as being a better defender, Rodman wins this debate. At least, back when he was playing for the Pistons. Rodman was a committed defender, who had the lateral movement to stay with two guards, and enough athletic ability and strength to defend against power forwards and centers. The guy was a buzz of energy on the defensive end, always coming up with big rebounds (remember when he was the 6th man of the year, and even though his total rebounds in a game weren't as high, his rebound rate per minute was astounding)

I don't think that Duncan was ever considered a great one on one defensive player. Decent post players could always score against Duncan. But I always saw Duncan in the same light as Larry Bird. As a great help and team defender, but with added height.

This.
And if Rodman stayed more in "pistons" mode i think he would of had a case not only as better than duncan on defense but for the greatest defender of my lifetime ... not sure who THAT is but I think i still go with Duncan in this debate and Hakeem overall.

[Sportcamper]

Duncan has character & will battle till the game is over…Rodman was an absolute punk who would get himself thrown out of the game or foul out when things were not going his way….

[FromWayDowntown]

If we don't care about offense...

PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Russel
---
Hakeem
Ben Wallace
Micheal Cooper
Jery West
Payton
Chamberlain
Moncrief
Bowen
Mourning

So the player who's made more All-Defense teams than any other player in NBA history isn't a good enough defender to make your "If we're only talking about defense" team?

[tbonewalker]

So the player who's made more All-Defense teams than any other player in NBA history isn't a good enough defender to make your "If we're only talking about defense" team?

That would be a flawed argument on your part.

Duncan gets voted in as a C when he isn't good enough to make it as F. In other words he's only a C on paper when it's convenient for him.

[FromWayDowntown]

That would be a flawed argument on your part.

Duncan gets voted in as a C when he isn't good enough to make it as F. In other words he's only a C on paper when it's convenient for him.

He's made it twice as a center (2008-09 and 2009-10) and 11 other times as a forward -- and 8 times as a First Team forward.

Even if you eliminate the 2 times he's been voted in at center, he's still #1 all-time in All-Defense team selections, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and Bobby Jones, if you count All-ABA selections).

Awards mean something or they don't. You choose.

[tbonewalker]

He's made it twice as a center (2008-09 and 2009-10) and 11 other times as a forward -- and 8 times as a First Team forward.

Even if you eliminate the 2 times he's been voted in at center, he's still #1 all-time in All-Defense team selections, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and Bobby Jones, if you count All-ABA selections).

Awards mean something or they don't. You choose.

FromWayDowntown, awards mean something, yes they do.

Which is why I gave merit to Rodman winning 2 DPOY awards yet Duncan never won a single one.

An All-NBA defense selection is a selection, not an award.

Examples of awards: MVP award, DPOY award, Sixth man of year award..etc


Lol, Anything else?

[ElNono]

Where's Epic Fail when you need him? :lol

[tbonewalker]

Where's Epic Fail when you need him? :lol

Epic failure as in FromWayDowntown needing me to explain the difference between awards/selections? Lol..

[JamStone]

He's made it twice as a center (2008-09 and 2009-10) and 11 other times as a forward -- and 8 times as a First Team forward.

Even if you eliminate the 2 times he's been voted in at center, he's still #1 all-time in All-Defense team selections, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and Bobby Jones, if you count All-ABA selections).

Awards mean something or they don't. You choose.

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

[ElNono]

Epic failure as in FromWayDowntown needing me to explain the difference between awards/selections? Lol..

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/I_detect_fail-1.jpg

[Phenomanul]

FromWayDowntown, awards mean something, yes they do.

Which is why I gave merit to Rodman winning 2 DPOY awards yet Duncan never won a single one.

An All-NBA defense selection is a selection, not an award.

Examples of awards: MVP award, DPOY award, Sixth man of year award..etc


Lol, Anything else?



Who threw out the legitimacy of All-NBA Defense recognition? Not me.

hmmmm...... moving goal posts anyone?

[ElNono]

All-NBA selections are honors that are comparable to any award.
Go look up the bio of any player that has been an All-NBA and show me it's not listed alongside any other awards.

Your FAIL is reaching epic proportions...

[Phenomanul]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

Ratio their years in the league and you'll find the answer...

[tbonewalker]

hmmmm...... moving goal posts anyone?

Losing braincells...phenom?

I simply explained to FromWayDowntown the difference between an award/selection.

[ElNono]

I simply explained to FromWayDowntown the difference between an award/selection.

But you didn't explain it. You just said they're different.

Please explain the difference. Be specific.

[Phenomanul]

Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.

Back to square one then:

-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman
Most statistics would prove this to be true. Even those accounting for pace.


-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.


-Team defense = Rodman by a hair
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.


-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
The point that eluded you earlier was that DPOY awards don't represent the be all, end all metric of defensive criteria... because they are awarded by THE MEDIA...


-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly? No agenda.... Really? :lol


-Rodman has never NOT repeated
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly? I could make the statement that Rodman never led his teams to championships... or garnered MVP awards or Finals MVP awards... but this argument is irrelevant to the comparison of Duncan's and Rodman's defensive impact.


-Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Isaiah Thomas led his Pistons team to 2 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).


-Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive aptitudes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Michael Jordan led his Bulls team to 3 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).


-Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.
As subjective a conclusion as this is... it's one that is likely backed by most NBA conosseiurs... Rodman did the most with the tools he was given, due largely to his athletic gifts...



-Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers. :toast

Troll.

tbonewalker's opening argument is complete bunk no matter the merit in the comparison...

[hitmanyr2k]

He's made it twice as a center (2008-09 and 2009-10) and 11 other times as a forward -- and 8 times as a First Team forward.

Even if you eliminate the 2 times he's been voted in at center, he's still #1 all-time in All-Defense team selections, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and Bobby Jones, if you count All-ABA selections).

Awards mean something or they don't. You choose.

Awards do mean something but you have to put them in context. You have to consider the eras these players were in. Rodman played in a MUCH tougher big man era where there was more competition for All-Defense teams. Duncan is currently in the worst defensive big man era ever at the moment and honestly the 2000's have been nothing special for defensive centers and PFs. Duncan could make All-Defense in his sleep in this era. His defense hasn't been anything special since 2007 but he's still a mainstay on the All-Defense team.

[tbonewalker]

All-NBA selections are honors that are comparable to any award.
Go look up the bio of any player that has been an All-NBA and show me it's not listed alongside any other awards.

Your FAIL is reaching epic proportions...


Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.

They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

[ElNono]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

Years in the league have to be taken into account. But I will also add that when Kobe is motivated, he can be an exceptional defender.

The biggest difference is consistency. Bowen did it night in and night out.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

Which illustrates my point even further. Kobe will most likely pass Scottie Pippen this season in All-Defense selections when Kobe is not even in the same stratosphere as Pippen when it comes to effort, consistency and defensive impact on a game. Kobe is playing in a weak era for defensive guards and other than Wade he's really the only household name so he gets by on rep. The guy could put up Steve Nash-like defensive ratings and still make All-Defense first team.

[ElNono]

Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.


How are they different from awards? Please explain.


They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

What is that reason? They all start from a list of candidates and work up to the selection of the awardee...

Please explain the difference.


They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

There's no actual award, but there's an honor accompanying the distinction.
If there would be nothing special about it, then what's the point of selecting in the first place?

LOL ZERO CREDIBILITY...

BTW, I'm keeping score: ElNono 2 - tretard 0

[Water Cooler]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

[hitmanyr2k]

Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.

They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

Making All-NBA or All-Defense is comparable to any award though. Making those teams consistently say you've established yourself as one of the Top 5 or Top 10 players at your position on offense or defense in your era. Making those teams carry a lot of weight when it comes to selection for the Hall of Fame.

Players like Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, and Paul Pierce have Finals MVP "awards" but they don't have the All-NBA teams that say they were the best of the best to go along with those trophies and that's why they're not guaranteed HOFs.

[ElNono]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

:lmao

[JamStone]

Ratio their years in the league and you'll find the answer...

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

[ohmwrecker]

Years in the league have to be taken into account. But I will also add that when Kobe is motivated, he can be an exceptional defender.

The biggest difference is consistency. Bowen did it night in and night out.

The main issue with this comparison is that Bowen was a defensive specialist who was not expected to produce offensively. Kobe has always been the #1 or #2 option offensively. It's ridiculous to expect Kobe to play defense on Bowen's level when he is expending so much energy on the other end.

Take offense out of the equation and I would still have to give a slight edge to Bowen. I can't think of a player who was more committed to defense and he should have been officially recognized for that more than he was.

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.

[tbonewalker]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?


Bad a bing

[DeadlyDynasty]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

That comparison aside, defense is what set Kobe apart from others (McGrady, Carter, Melo, etc earlier in his career)....and he STILL has it. Westbrook was torching LA in Round 1 last year, Phil puts Kobe on him in Games 4 & 5...ballgame. Kobe is still recognized by his peers as an elite defender and I always find it laughable that his haters try to argue he's overrated in that department. Tbh, I'm not one of the Kobe groupies on this site that throat his scrote on the reg. He has plenty of faults, as he is a chucker, and he was a divisive locker room presence earlier in his career. He shot horribly in the finals (again), got plenty of help from Gasol and Artest, but received the lion's share of recognition for the ring. I also think he didn't deserve the 2008 MVP (but he most assuredly deserved to win it in 2006 over Nash). All that being said, I've always appreciated Kobe BECAUSE OF HIS DEFENSE. He always brings it, and just ask his 2008 Olympic teammates about his D when he took on the opponent's best player every game.

[tbonewalker]

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.


Not in my opinion, he doesn't. But if you are going to steal an award from somebody who earned it, go ahead and take one from Wallace.

Lord knows Artest rightfully won DPOY over Bowen.

[JamStone]

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.

Which season?

2001-02
2002-03
2004-05
2005-06

[tbonewalker]

Making All-NBA or All-Defense is comparable to any award though.


Is it an award? No.

Is it a selection, yes.

Does it come with a trophy? No.

Is a selection an award? No.

[tbonewalker]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

Says the nobody with 3 posts who knows my name. Welcome to the block kid.

Here's to hoping you understand the difference between awards and selections. :toast

[ohmwrecker]

Not in my opinion, he doesn't. But if you are going to steal an award from somebody who earned it, go ahead and take one from Wallace.

Lord knows Artest rightfully won DPOY over Bowen.

That's debatable and your opinion doesn't count for much around here.

[ohmwrecker]

Which season?

2001-02
2002-03
2004-05
2005-06

este

[ohmwrecker]

Says the nobody with 3 posts who knows my name. Welcome to the block kid.

Here's to hoping you understand the difference between awards and selections. :toast

It doesn't matter that there is a difference between awards and "selections". Either one can be legitimately discussed in this debate.

[tbonewalker]

It doesn't matter that there is a difference between awards and "selections". Either one can be legitimately discussed in this debate.

GO back and read.

[ohmwrecker]

GO back and read.

Good God, why?

[tbonewalker]

Good God, why?

"Awards mean something or they don't, you choose."

I choose, yes, they do mean something.

Winning DPOY award twice > Duncan never winning it. Any way you slice that, it's a fact.

Selections mean something too. I'll go on a limb and say:

2 DPOY coupled with all of Rodmans selections means more to a defender than never winning DPOY but just making the defensive selection teams.

[ElNono]

Sombody explain tdumbass that JamStone is actually destroying the rationale by which he made his selection in the OP. He seems oblivious to that fact.

[picc84]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

He was.

[ohmwrecker]

"Awards mean something or they don't, you choose."

I choose, yes, they do mean something.

Winning DPOY twice > Duncan never winning it. Any way you slice that, it's a fact.

When comparing a defensive specialist (Rodman/Bowen) to a All-Star caliber all-around player (Duncan/Bryant) that argument is weak and insignificant.

[tbonewalker]

Sombody explain tdumbass that JamStone is actually destroying the rationale by which he made his selection in the OP. He seems oblivious to that fact.

Go back in your corner. Grown ups are talking...

[JamStone]

este

Obviously the stats favor Ben so I realize that's not what your argument would be. But I'd still like you to hear one. Why did Bruce Bowen deserve the DPOY over Ben Wallace in 2004-05?

[ElNono]

"Awards mean something or they don't, you choose."

I choose, yes, they do mean something.

Winning DPOY award twice > Duncan never winning it. Any way you slice that, it's a fact.

Selections mean something too. I'll go on a limb and say:

2 DPOY coupled with all of Rodmans selections means more to a defender than never winning DPOY but just making the defensive selection teams.

Under that rationale, Mutombo > Rodman... GTFO...

[ElNono]

Go back in your corner. Grown ups are talking...

Shhh girl... you're way over your head here...

[tbonewalker]

When comparing a defensive specialist (Rodman/Bowen) to a All-Star caliber all-around player (Duncan/Bryant) that argument is weak and insignificant.

It took you 8 pages to figure out the topic is Defense? LOL, ohm I'm surprised.

[tbonewalker]

Under that rationale, Mutombo > Rodman... GTFO...


Wrong. There are more factors. I never said DPOY is the only factor. You can go back in your corner now. Grown folks still sorting things out.

[ElNono]

It took you 8 pages to figure out the topic is Defense? LOL, ohm I'm surprised.

TBH, 8 pages later and you're still a dumbass... so YMMV

[ElNono]

Wrong. There are more factors. I never said DPOY is the only factor. You can go back in your corner now. Grown folks still sorting things out.

That's the problem, you never said anything. You keep on moving the goalposts to suit your argument. But guys like you are dime a dozen here, so you should feel at home.

And why don't you make me go to the corner, tough girl? :lmao

[ohmwrecker]

Obviously the stats favor Ben so I realize that's not what your argument would be. But I'd still like you to hear one. Why did Bruce Bowen deserve the DPOY over Ben Wallace in 2004-05?

He was the best defender on the championship team. Better man defender, more versatile (could guard 1-3) and he had a psychological advantage. He really got under his man's skin. Wallace was intimidating for sure, but Bowen really bothered people. I also think it's harder to be a good wing defender than a good post defender. I'm not saying Wallace didn't deserve it, but for him to win in '05 AND '06 when Bowen never won one, is a crime.

[DeadlyDynasty]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#dpoy

DPOY voting and stats for 2004-05 for those interested...

[ohmwrecker]

It took you 8 pages to figure out the topic is Defense? LOL, ohm I'm surprised.

What?! Everything I posted is topic specific.

You've been arguing around the topic the for the entire thread.

[hitmanyr2k]

Is it an award? No.

Is it a selection, yes.

Does it come with a trophy? No.

Is a selection an award? No.

I wasn't arguing what's what. I was arguing impact. Those "selections" have just as much impact as "awards" when it comes to the big picture...which is HOF "selection".

[ohmwrecker]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#dpoy

DPOY voting and stats for 2004-05 for those interested...

That link goes to 2005-06, but . . . Bowen should have won one of those.

[DeadlyDynasty]

That link goes to 2005-06, but . . . Bowen should have won one of those.

my bad

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#dpoy

[JamStone]

He was the best defender on the championship team. Better man defender, more versatile (could guard 1-3) and he had a psychological advantage. He really got under his man's skin. Wallace was intimidating for sure, but Bowen really bothered people. I also think it's harder to be a good wing defender than a good post defender. I'm not saying Wallace didn't deserve it, but for him to win in '05 AND '06 when Bowen never won one, is a crime.

-being on a championship team that year has no bearing on the award as it is a regular season award. The regular season awards are voted and determined before the playoffs and before the championship is decided. If you were going to use that argument, Ben Wallace was on the defending championship team in 2004-05.

-Bruce being "more versatile" is subjective, and absolutely arguable. When Ben Wallace was first in the NBA on the then Washington Bullets, they tried to make him a shooting guard because of his height. Ben in his prime (including the 2004-05 season) had the athleticism and quickness to guard most small forwards and would often switch onto perimeter players with no problem. If Bruce can guard 1-3 effectively, Ben could actually guard 2-5 effectively. I'd argue pretty strongly who was more versatile.

-you should go through this entire thread with the debate between Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman. Part of the argument holds true in a comparison between Ben and Bruce. Ben was an elite defender individually in his own right, but beyond that he was the anchor of one of the best defenses in the league. Bruce, while an elite defender, wasn't the anchor of the great Spurs defense. Duncan was. That makes a huge difference to me.

-your last point about Ben already winning 2 so it was a crime Bruce hadn't gotten one is really weak. It's the reason why Karl Malone has two MVPs because some voters got sick of giving the award to Jordan. It shouldn't matter how many DPOYs Ben had or was going to end up with. It should be strictly about who was the better defender that particular season. I would welcome a debate with you explaining why Bruce deserved it in 2004-05. What you've told me so far doesn't cut it. And this last point was pretty much horse shit.

[tbonewalker]

-being on a championship team that year has no bearing on the award as it is a regular season award. The regular season awards are voted and determined before the playoffs and before the championship is decided. If you were going to use that argument, Ben Wallace was on the defending championship team in 2004-05.

-Bruce being "more versatile" is subjective, and absolutely arguable. When Ben Wallace was first in the NBA on the then Washington Bullets, they tried to make him a shooting guard because of his height. Ben in his prime (including the 2004-05 season) had the athleticism and quickness to guard most small forwards and would often switch onto perimeter players with no problem. If Bruce can guard 1-3 effectively, Ben could actually guard 2-5 effectively. I'd argue pretty strongly who was more versatile.

-you should go through this entire thread with the debate between Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman. Part of the argument holds true in a comparison between Ben and Bruce. Ben was an elite defender individually in his own right, but beyond that he was the anchor of one of the best defenses in the league. Bruce, while an elite defender, wasn't the anchor of the great Spurs defense. Duncan was. That makes a huge difference to me.

-your last point about Ben already winning 2 so it was a crime Bruce hadn't gotten one is really weak. It's the reason why Karl Malone has two MVPs because some voters got sick of giving the award to Jordan. It shouldn't matter how many DPOYs Ben had or was going to end up with. It should be strictly about who was the better defender that particular season. I would welcome a debate with you explaining why Bruce deserved it in 2004-05. What you've told me so far doesn't cut it. And this last point was pretty much horse shit.


Agreed. I'm not ready to start taking awards away from players who earned them and won them just to pump Bowen up (disagree with a Laker fan at all costs).

[hitmanyr2k]

That link goes to 2005-06, but . . . Bowen should have won one of those.

I was never on the Bowen bandwagon. I recognized he was a good defender but I doubt he would be the same defender without Duncan standing behind him. Also, rebounding is apart of defense and Bowen averaging 3 boards a game when he had no other real duties was baffling to me. You can say it was because he was on the perimeter and all but plenty of other forwards were defending on the perimeter as well and they were averaging well over 3 freakin boards a game...that's atrocious.

[tbonewalker]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FR7Z1Pq2s5I/hqdefault.jpg

Slightly off-topic (should fit right in..) but does Anybody remember when this shot of Bowen was taken?

Right after Fisher hit the 0.4 shot. Notice the ESPN Classic logo top right corner.


Why was Bowen on the bench during this crucial moment in a playoff game?

[DeadlyDynasty]

I was never on the Bowen bandwagon. I recognized he was a good defender but I doubt he would be the same defender without Duncan standing behind him. Also, rebounding is apart of defense and Bowen averaging 3 boards a game when he had no other real duties was baffling to me. You can say it was because he was on the perimeter and all but plenty of other forwards were defending on the perimeter as well and they were averaging well over 3 freakin boards a game...that's atrocious.


Bowen was first noticed as a great defender by Riles, but even then he had an incredible defensive anchor playing behind him (Mourning). Not to take anything away from Bowen, but Jam's point about Wallace being a great one-on-one defender as well as being the anchor pretty much seals up this argument.

[ohmwrecker]

-being on a championship team that year has no bearing on the award as it is a regular season award. The regular season awards are voted and determined before the playoffs and before the championship is decided. If you were going to use that argument, Ben Wallace was on the defending championship team in 2004-05.

Actually, '05 or '06, it doesn't matter. Stats are great but they only paint part of the picture.


-Bruce being "more versatile" is subjective, and absolutely arguable. When Ben Wallace was first in the NBA on the then Washington Bullets, they tried to make him a shooting guard because of his height. Ben in his prime (including the 2004-05 season) had the athleticism and quickness to guard most small forwards and would often switch onto perimeter players with no problem. If Bruce can guard 1-3 effectively, Ben could actually guard 2-5 effectively. I'd argue pretty strongly who was more versatile.

Don't be so defensive. I never said that Wallace didn't deserve to win, I'm just saying that Bowen deserved it at least as much. I don't think I can go along with your "Ben could actually guard 2-5 effectively" theory. Wallace was quick for a big man, but there is no way he could guard elite 2 & 3s in the NBA, he also had trouble with long, skilled 5s. He did a great job on Shaq though and I give him a lot of credit for that. He didn't fare as well against Duncan, however.
I still maintain that Bowen was more versatile because he could guard elite players 1-3.


-you should go through this entire thread with the debate between Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman. Part of the argument holds true in a comparison between Ben and Bruce. Ben was an elite defender individually in his own right, but beyond that he was the anchor of one of the best defenses in the league. Bruce, while an elite defender, wasn't the anchor of the great Spurs defense. Duncan was. That makes a huge difference to me.

I have read the significant parts of this thread. I don't agree with the premise because, as you said, Duncan was the defensive anchor for an elite defensive team. Rodman was a supremely talented defensive specialist, but not an anchor by any stretch of the imagination.


-your last point about Ben already winning 2 so it was a crime Bruce hadn't gotten one is really weak. It's the reason why Karl Malone has two MVPs because some voters got sick of giving the award to Jordan. It shouldn't matter how many DPOYs Ben had or was going to end up with. It should be strictly about who was the better defender that particular season. I would welcome a debate with you explaining why Bruce deserved it in 2004-05. What you've told me so far doesn't cut it. And this last point was pretty much horse shit.

I should have included '06 in my original assessment, but there is no doubt that Bowen and Wallace were the two best defenders in the league those two years. Given that they both play different positions and were the best defenders at those two positions, Bowen should have been given the award one of the two years.

I know it comes down to votes, but I'm talking about who deserves it, not a popularity contest. Bowen was respected, but not well liked. Wallace was much more popular and marketable.

Again, I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to discredit Wallace to pump up Bowen, but you asked . . .

[DeadlyDynasty]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FR7Z1Pq2s5I/hqdefault.jpg

Slightly off-topic (should fit right in..) but does Anybody remember when this shot of Bowen was taken?

Right after Fisher hit the 0.4 shot. Notice the ESPN Classic logo top right corner.


Why was Bowen on the bench during this crucial moment in a playoff game?

Good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. Looking at the boxscore, he had only one PF and was 3-6 from the field with 8 pts (so he wasn't a complete offensive liability either). It's baffling he wasn't out there, even though he would've been guarding Kobe instead of Fish anyways

[ohmwrecker]

Bowen was first noticed as a great defender by Riles, but even then he had an incredible defensive anchor playing behind him (Mourning). Not to take anything away from Bowen, but Jam's point about Wallace being a great one-on-one defender as well as being the anchor pretty much seals up this argument.

Duncan/Mourning/Wallace are defensive anchors because that is the nature of their position. You aren't going to find many defensive anchors who were wing players.

[JamStone]

I was never on the Bowen bandwagon. I recognized he was a good defender but I doubt he would be the same defender without Duncan standing behind him. Also, rebounding is apart of defense and Bowen averaging 3 boards a game when he had no other real duties was baffling to me. You can say it was because he was on the perimeter and all but plenty of other forwards were defending on the perimeter as well and they were averaging well over 3 freakin boards a game...that's atrocious.

I wouldn't criticize Bowen too much for not rebounding. That was never really asked of him. And as you even pointed out, he was a lockdown perimeter defender, meaning he was often out by the three point line shutting down perimeter players. But that does go to the point about versatility. Ben Wallace could dominate defensively by being a very good (I wouldn't say great) low post defender, an elite shotblocker and rebounder, a very good (not great) man defender out on the perimeter. Ben was also elite at deflecting passes and getting steals for a big man. To me that shows more versatility rather than saying Bruce could guard positions 1-3. Bowen excelled at one thing, perimeter man defense. He didn't excel at anything else defensively, whether rebounding, being an effective post defender, getting in passing lanes for steals. Things like that. Bruce was a great, great defender. I'd argue about the "being more versatile" point.

Which also reminds of someone who by now gets lost in the talks of great defenders in the 2000s. Andrei Kirilenko. In his first few seasons, to me, Kirilenko was about as great a perimeter defender as there was in the league, including the likes of Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest and Doug Christie. And talk about versatile. He could be that lockdown perimeter defender. But he also rebounded, blocked shots, and got steals. Basically the perimeter version of Ben Wallace. And he was a true lockdown perimeter defender. I've always been a fan of his defense. If we talk about versatile defenders, AK-47 should definitely be mentioned. I think injuries too their toll. His game isn't where it was his first 2-3 seasons in the league. But in those early 2000s, man was he a defensive beast.

[ohmwrecker]

Good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. Looking at the boxscore, he had only one PF and was 3-6 from the field with 8 pts (so he wasn't a complete offensive liability either). It's baffling he wasn't out there, even though he would've been guarding Kobe instead of Fish anyways

I think the Spurs thought they had the game in hand after that great shot by Duncan and there was no way the Lakers would be able to get a shot off. Crucial error . . . thanks for bringing that up.

[JamStone]

Saying "Ben owes Bowen a DPOY" is the equivalent to saying "Ben didn't deserve it" (the one he owes Bruce)

[Leetonidas]

tbonewalker = faggot.

/thread

[DeadlyDynasty]

Duncan/Mourning/Wallace are defensive anchors because that is the nature of their position. You aren't going to find many Defensive anchors who were wing players.

Very true, but Wallace was extremely versatile as well. Bowen could lock down his man, but Ben could lock down his man and provide the help D as well as clean the glass. If take what you will from it, but Ben Wallace averaged more than 1 steal/game than Bowen as well (pretty amazing for a 4/5).
Like I said, Bowen was awesome and definitely deserving of All NBA Defense selections, but Ben was DPOY for a reason. The reputation card is not a solid argument either, for Rodman and Artest have won the award before and we know how they were regarded among the media...

[ohmwrecker]

Saying "Ben owes Bowen a DPOY" is the equivalent to saying "Ben didn't deserve it" (the one he owes Bruce)

I guess it could be interpreted that way . . . Sure. That's not what I intended.

[Leetonidas]

Defensively, Duncan is not in the category of Wallace and Mourning. And with Rodman, I've seen him guard Magic on one night, Bird on the next, Jordan on the next, and Shaq to finish off his week.

:lmao

The Spurs had been the most dominant defensive team from 1998-2008, including the lowest opposing PPG in 2004 ever. Those teams were led by Duncan, that is no fluke. But then again I wouldn't some dumbass like you to actually watch any basketball games that aren't Laker victories.

[JamStone]

And with Rodman, I've seen him guard Magic on one night, Bird on the next, Jordan on the next, and Shaq to finish off his week.

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

[ElNono]

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

:lmao

[Leetonidas]

:lmao ^

[DeadlyDynasty]

I think the Spurs thought they had the game in hand after that great shot by Duncan and there was no way the Lakers would be able to get a shot off. Crucial error . . . thanks for bringing that up.

:lol
Good times.

[ohmwrecker]

The reputation card is not a solid argument either, for Rodman and Artest have won the award before and we know how they were regarded among the media...


Do not agree at all. The media loves Rodman and Artest. Popular bad boys. Bowen was hated. Boring team. Dirty player. Ad Nauseum.

[Leetonidas]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. He was THE premier wing defender in the league for years, even Kobe said he was the best.

[ohmwrecker]

:lol
Good times.

If only they had not waited until Fisher turned around to start the clock . . .

[ohmwrecker]

How did you see that all in one week when Bird retired before Shaq played in the NBA?

LakaLuva making tbonewalker look like a genius.

[DeadlyDynasty]

If only they had not waited until Fisher turned around to start the clock . . .

It was a great shot, and everyone thought it was going to #8.

[JamStone]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. He was THE premier wing defender in the league for years, even Kobe said he was the best.

Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

It's like saying in the early 2000s, Jason Kidd had established himself as the best point guard for years and deserved to have won at least 1 MVP in those early 2000s. No, because there were better players at other positions, guys like Tim and Shaq.

You can easily argue Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY because there was a guy named Ben Wallace who was more dominant defensively during the time Bruce was the premier wing defender.

[DeadlyDynasty]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.html#dpoy

Just for shits and giggles here are Ben's 02-03 stats. 15.4 rbg and 3.2 bpg...disgusting

[ohmwrecker]

It was a great shot, and everyone thought it was going to #8.

Come on, you guys have *, let me have this one.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Come on, you guys have *, let me have this one.

:lol I concede nothing!

Seriously though, I hope RJ finds his game and Splitter rounds into form...I miss the Lakers-Spurs playoff matchups. Spurs were never really threatened in the WC in 05 and 07, much like the Lakers weren't in 09 and 10. Some of the faces have changed, but it stills makes for great basketball:toast

[The Franchise]

Yeah you can't really argue that Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY. .

Why not? There were always better defenders in the league than him every year of his career. You can put him in the conversation, like everyone did, but he was no more deserving than the people who won the award. I could make the same comment about Shane Battier. For a couple of years he played incredible defense, but when you look at his overall effect on the outcome of games, there were players who were more disruptive to the opponents flow on offense. I think that's a large factor in players like Bowen and Battier never winning.

[tbonewalker]

I wouldn't criticize Bowen too much for not rebounding. That was never really asked of him. And as you even pointed out, he was a lockdown perimeter defender, meaning he was often out by the three point line shutting down perimeter players. But that does go to the point about versatility. Ben Wallace could dominate defensively by being a very good (I wouldn't say great) low post defender, an elite shotblocker and rebounder, a very good (not great) man defender out on the perimeter. Ben was also elite at deflecting passes and getting steals for a big man. To me that shows more versatility rather than saying Bruce could guard positions 1-3. Bowen excelled at one thing, perimeter man defense. He didn't excel at anything else defensively, whether rebounding, being an effective post defender, getting in passing lanes for steals. Things like that. Bruce was a great, great defender. I'd argue about the "being more versatile" point.

Which also reminds of someone who by now gets lost in the talks of great defenders in the 2000s. Andrei Kirilenko. In his first few seasons, to me, Kirilenko was about as great a perimeter defender as there was in the league, including the likes of Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest and Doug Christie. And talk about versatile. He could be that lockdown perimeter defender. But he also rebounded, blocked shots, and got steals. Basically the perimeter version of Ben Wallace. And he was a true lockdown perimeter defender. I've always been a fan of his defense. If we talk about versatile defenders, AK-47 should definitely be mentioned. I think injuries too their toll. His game isn't where it was his first 2-3 seasons in the league. But in those early 2000s, man was he a defensive beast.


AK-47 isn't nearly what he used to be. He could have had a great chance to revive his career if that Melo trade went through though.

Still, AK-47 couldn't lock guys up like, for example, Artest.

[Leetonidas]

Why not? There were always better defenders in the league than him every year of his career. You can put him in the conversation, like everyone did, but he was no more deserving than the people who won the award. I could make the same comment about Shane Battier. For a couple of years he played incredible defense, but when you look at his overall effect on the outcome of games, there were players who were more disruptive to the opponents flow on offense. I think that's a large factor in players like Bowen and Battier never winning.

Because Camby should not have won one period.


Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

True, but this isn't "best overall defender" award, it's the defensive player of the year award, and there were definitely a couple years were Bruce deserved it, as well as Tim. I'm not trying to discredit Big Ben because he was a beast but Marcus Camby winning a DPOY is a fucking joke.

[Leetonidas]

And you cannot make that comment for Battier because he was never on the level of Bowen/Artest.

[JamStone]

True, but this isn't "best overall defender" award, it's the defensive player of the year award, and there were definitely a couple years were Bruce deserved it, as well as Tim. I'm not trying to discredit Big Ben because he was a beast but Marcus Camby winning a DPOY is a fucking joke.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I guess I was focusing on the years Ben and Artest won the award. Camby winning was pretty much a joke. That is definitely something I agree with.

[Leetonidas]

I remember when Big Ben won his last one, that's the one I thought Bowen really deserved. I think at that point he was getting it based off reputation, which is not to say he still wasn't first team defense, but still. He had 3 already man, coulda given one to Brucie. :depressed And then the next year when I think Tim of all people will FINALLY get one, they give it to Camby. :pctoss

That alone kinda invalidates the award for me. If someone like him can win it then you have to wonder how these guys base their decisions on who is the DPOY

[JamStone]

AK-47 isn't nearly what he used to be. He could have had a great chance to revive his career if that Melo trade went through though.

Still, AK-47 couldn't lock guys up like, for example, Artest.

I'd disagree with that. In his first few seasons, Kirilenko was on the same level as Artest and Bowen when it came to locking up perimeter players. Not necessarily better, perhaps not as good, but at the same level, in the same neighborhood.

Part of what was so impressive with Kirilenko's man defense is that he did not rely on physical tactics the way Bowen and Artest would. Kirilenko relied on his length and quickness more than bumping and elbowing and grabbing shorts and the like. Used his long arms and legs and lateral quickness to really stick players. He wasn't necessarily the same type of lockdown defenders as Artest and Bowen. But I certainly do think he was the same caliber.

[hitmanyr2k]

Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

It's like saying in the early 2000s, Jason Kidd had established himself as the best point guard for years and deserved to have won at least 1 MVP in those early 2000s. No, because there were better players at other positions, guys like Tim and Shaq.

You can easily argue Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY because there was a guy named Ben Wallace who was more dominant defensively during the time Bruce was the premier wing defender.

That's pretty much the reason Scottie never won DPOY even though he's widely regarded as one of (if not the best) best perimeter defenders ever. He played in the best defensive big man era ever. With players like Hakeem, Robinson, and Mutombo in their primes it was damn near impossible for a perimeter player to win the DPOY unless they did a shameless player/coach DPOY campaign like Payton and George Karl did in '96.

[DJB]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html


OP got owned.

[Phenomanul]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

I know you're not being purposefully disingenuous, but Bowen didn't enter the NBA until the ripe old age of 25. Bryant, age 18. The comparison at this point (while Kobe's career has yet to end) will be skewed... (I guess I should have stated that outright)...

Bowen earned all of his selections after the age of 28 and his last at the age of 36... Kobe will end up with more (likely based on reputation) but not because he's continually asked to defend the opposing team's best perimeter player game after game (and not miss a game to boot).... it will be a feat if Kobe manages to earn additional 1st or 2nd team All-Defensive selections past the age of 34...

That said, your point is taken...

[tbonewalker]

I'd disagree with that. In his first few seasons, Kirilenko was on the same level as Artest and Bowen when it came to locking up perimeter players. Not necessarily better, perhaps not as good, but at the same level, in the same neighborhood.

Part of what was so impressive with Kirilenko's man defense is that he did not rely on physical tactics the way Bowen and Artest would. Kirilenko relied on his length and quickness more than bumping and elbowing and grabbing shorts and the like. Used his long arms and legs and lateral quickness to really stick players. He wasn't necessarily the same type of lockdown defenders as Artest and Bowen. But I certainly do think he was the same caliber.


Ehh - I wouldn't go that far, champ. You mention Artest and Bowen? That's where the buck stops for me. Maybe I just need clarification from you.

Are you saying Bowen at his best defensively was on the same level as Artest at his best defensively?

I'll give you the 'Kirilenko/Bowen was in the same neighborhood as Artest for maybe a couple seasons'. But IMO he was never AS good as Artest defensively. Not even for a couple seasons when AK was at his physical peak. Might be a good topic, on it's own.

[JamStone]

I know you're not being purposefully disingenuous,

Oh, I was most certainly being purposely disingenuous. To make a point.

It goes back to what was initially argued about Duncan having the most all-defense honors and someone leaving him off of who they think belong on an all time defensive team. As you just agreed with Kobe, Duncan has been in the league a long time. And sometimes a recognized name will get the benefit of the doubt with these regular season honors.

And sometimes in a particular person's opinion, it might be more about how great a player is in their prime. Part of Duncan's greatness has been his longevity and his playing at an elite level for so many seasons right from his first season. If we talk about the greatest defenders in the history of the game in their primes, I don't think it would be a travesty to have big men like Rodman, Russell, Hakeem, Ben, Zo, Wilt being considered better defenders than Duncan even though Duncan has the most all-defense honors in the game.

That's where I was going with the Bowen/Kobe comparison.

[JamStone]

Ehh - I wouldn't go that far, champ. You mention Artest and Bowen? That's where the buck stops for me. Maybe I just need clarification from you.

Are you saying Bowen at his best defensively was on the same level as Artest at his best defensively?

I'll give you the 'Kirilenko/Bowen was in the same neighborhood as Artest for maybe a couple seasons'. But IMO he was never AS good as Artest defensively. Not even for a couple seasons when AK was at his physical peak. Might be a good topic, on it's own.

Ron Artest at his best was a defensive maniac. I was watching the NBA in the mid 2000s. I wouldn't argue that he wasn't better than both Bowen and Kirilenko when all three were at their very best defensively. But for me personally, I don't think Artest was so much more significantly better to put him in his own category.

Each at their best, Artest was probably the best of the three. Exceptional lateral quickness, strength, and quick hands. Very freakish (his lateral quickness especially) considering how much weight he walked around with. Bowen stuck on players like glue, would get in their shorts, tug, pull, clutch, grab, and push the limits of the defensive rules to gain every advantage. As I mentioned earlier Kirilenko probably used his length and quickness combination better than anyone I've personally watched play (I didn't watch Bill Russell or Wilt).

So yeah, I wouldn't argue if you said Artest was the best. But I don't think he was on a completely different level. Different styles as perimeter man defenders. But all around the same caliber. That's my opinion.

[lefty]

I want to have sex with Jamstone's posts

[tbonewalker]

Ron Artest at his best was a defensive maniac. I was watching the NBA in the mid 2000s. I wouldn't argue that he wasn't better than both Bowen and Kirilenko when all three were at their very best defensively. But for me personally, I don't think Artest was so much more significantly better to put him in his own category.

Each at their best, Artest was probably the best of the three. Exceptional lateral quickness, strength, and quick hands. Very freakish (his lateral quickness especially) considering how much weight he walked around with. Bowen stuck on players like glue, would get in their shorts, tug, pull, clutch, grab, and push the limits of the defensive rules to gain every advantage. As I mentioned earlier Kirilenko probably used his length and quickness combination better than anyone I've personally watched play (I didn't watch Bill Russell or Wilt).

So yeah, I wouldn't argue if you said Artest was the best. But I don't think he was on a completely different level. Different styles as perimeter man defenders. But all around the same caliber. That's my opinion.


Great post, agreed on many of your points (especially bold) and will not nitpick.

The underlined part, I put Artest (at his best) in the same category as Payton (at his best) and Jordan (at his best). In my book, the most dominant perimeter defenders have their own tier above the rest, just like the most dominant post defenders have a tier above the rest.

[HarlemHeat37]

- Kobe is certainly an overrated defender, Phil Jackson himself said Kobe didn't deserve some of his all-D selections..while he's still a very good 1 on 1 defender today(even though he rarely guards other good players), the other aspects of his defense are above average/average(backed up by the scouting stats, if I have to post them)..

- Artest was a better defender than Bowen in his prime IMO, Artest's 1-year peak was the best defense from a perimeter defender since Pippen/Jordan..however, Artest winning DPOY was undeserved..

Artest had a prime Jermaine O'Neal backing him..O'Neal led the Pacers in DWS and Drating..the Pacers defensive +/- was virtually identical between Artest and O'Neal, meaning they suffered just as much when either guy was off the floor..O'Neal's value as a defensive anchor was just as valuable, if not more, than Artest's value as an overall defender, even though he had an amazing season..

Do I think Jermaine was a better defender than Artest?..not necessarily, but I don't think Artest deserved DPOY over Tim Duncan or Ben Wallace for that season..

- I don't think Bowen deserved any of Ben Wallace's DPOYs, but I do think Duncan would have won Wallace's award in 2005 or 2006, but health got in the way..

The problem with Duncan in 2005 is that he only played 66 games, compared to Wallace's 74 games..if he plays 4-5 more games, he probably wins it, which is why I don't think Wallace winning the award was a false choice..

The Spurs were a better defensive team than the Pistons that season by a few Defensive Rating points..Duncan had the better defensive rating by a slight margin..he trailed Wallace in DWS by a whole WS, but obviously would have made up ground if he had played more games..

The Spurs were 9 points worse defensively with Duncan off the floor, while the Pistons were 3-4 points worse defensively with Ben off the floor..

So I don't have a problem with any of Ben Wallace's DPOY awards..

- Duncan absolutely should have won DPOY in 2007, arguably the biggest snub in NBA history..he led the NBA in defensive rating and DWS, top 5 in BPG..the Spurs were 7 points worse defensively with Duncan off the floor, while the Nuggets were 2 points BETTER defensively with Camby off the floor..

- While I feel the same way about Ben Wallace as I do about Rodman, which is that he has it a lot easier due to his offensive responsibility, I do find that he's underrated by most people IMO..a lot of people didn't seem to realize that we witnessed one of the greatest defensive players of all-time in Ben Wallace..

[tbonewalker]

- Artest was a better defender than Bowen in his prime IMO, Artest's 1-year peak was the best defense from a perimeter defender since Pippen/Jordan..however, Artest winning DPOY was undeserved..

Yet you went on to do the worst job of backing that absurd statement up.



Artest had a prime Jermaine O'Neal backing him..O'Neal led the Pacers in DWS and..DWS? Defensive Win Shares? When people start throwing around stats like Defensive Win Shares as a main point , I seriously question whether or not they ever picked up a basketball in their life. Care to remove your head from the pile 'o stat?

Seriously, this is your way of explaining how Artest winning DPOY was undeserved? :nope

[HarlemHeat37]

That was just one part of my argument..you can hate DWS if you want, but it's an accurate measure of tiers for defensive performance, especially with big men..of course there are exceptions and flaws, just like every stat, but it's a good measure for the most part..I'm not using it as a primary argument..generally speaking, a defensive anchor is always more valuable than an individual defender, and that alone should be good enough for you to accept an argument..

Jermaine O'Neal was a legit defensive anchor that season..his defensive stats were up there with guys like Ben Wallace, Duncan and Garnett for that season..whether you hate those stats or not, when they put him in a category that isn't too far from those guys, you can't really ignore it..

Again, as I said, O'Neal and Artest had virtually the same defensive +/- that season, their value was pretty much the same from that standpoint..

My argument isn't Jermaine vs. Artest..it's pointing out the fact that Ron Artest won the award over guys like Ben Wallace, Duncan and Garnett, despite being just an elite perimeter defender on a team that also had a legit defensive anchor that was arguably just as good, or better, for that particular season..all of those guys(Wallace, Duncan, KG) were more valuable to their teams than Artest was that season from a defensive standpoint, and it isn't arguable IMO..

What is your argument for why Artest deserved the award?..I'm expecting an unquantifiable argument anyways..

[phyzik]

I have to say....

For this post starting out as a troll job, it has turned into one of the better discussions in the NBA forum. Some really good, thought out takes in here.... Sprinkled with typical Laker trolling from Cully and his bunch... still, its been a pretty decent discussion.

[Giuseppe]

The Skunker withstanding.

[BoricuaCJA]

:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:Jamstone #1 poster on Spurstalk!!!:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

[dbreiden83080]

Sounds like someone is limited to the Spurs blinders perspective.

When I think of Dennis I think Detroit Pistons in his younger days and in Chicago in his latter days.

That said, Dennis Rodman is the superior defender and his multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards serve as a great support of this.

Read this and be quiet...


Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

[phyzik]

The Skunker withstanding.

No worries cully, keep bringing the flavor and spice....

[Giuseppe]

Let us proceed...

[Thomas82]

Also, Rodman was known to gamble on defense just for the sake of padding his rebound numbers... Duncan's not a stat-padder by any sense of the word....

That's a big part of why we lost to the Rockets in the '95 playoffs.

[Giuseppe]

& because Robinson was too busy playing Billy Graham.

[ynh]

Someone keeps on throwing up these pages as proof that duncan is a better defender

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html


The one where Defensive Win Shares is shown and Duncan is 7th all-time while Rodman is 32nd.

My biggest issue with this is the fact that going by this stat is has Karl Malone as 5th.. now I'm not sure how many of you think Karl Malone would be a better defender than either Duncan or Rodman but that's what this stat says.

The other page of stats has Patrick Ewing as a better defender than Garnett, Jabbar, and Mourning.. Oh and Greg Ostertag is better than Rodman on this.

[ynh]

OH and the first has Patrick Ewing right under Duncan at 8th. Is there a good explaination for all of this or is it because these breakdowns are somewhat flawed.

[Chieflion]

OH and the first has Patrick Ewing right under Duncan at 8th. Is there a good explaination for all of this or is it because these breakdowns are somewhat flawed.

Because you took career Defensive win shares. Just take the individual season defensive win shares or see how many games and minutes they played.

[ynh]

That's better.. was only using the page and stats that the individual was speaking of.. Didn't see that there though so thanks.

lol kinda funny though 214 Rasho Nesterovich

[Phenomanul]

Someone keeps on throwing up these pages as proof that duncan is a better defender

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html


The one where Defensive Win Shares is shown and Duncan is 7th all-time while Rodman is 32nd.

My biggest issue with this is the fact that going by this stat is has Karl Malone as 5th.. now I'm not sure how many of you think Karl Malone would be a better defender than either Duncan or Rodman but that's what this stat says.

The other page of stats has Patrick Ewing as a better defender than Garnett, Jabbar, and Mourning.. Oh and Greg Ostertag is better than Rodman on this.

One thing of note is that Duncan and Robinson are the only two teamates in the top 10... though their defense was synergistic, having been teammates actually would tend to lower the defensive win share value of the other (counterintuitive but check out the calculation method)...