Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Rockets - Oct. 7th

[timvp]

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5700/boxoct7.jpg

Tim Duncan
One preseason game in and Tim Duncan looks ready for the regular season to begin. He's in good shape, he's moving well and there's not much summer rust. Like we saw in the scrimmage, Duncan is playing further out on the court. That works well when paired with DeJuan Blair because it allows the second-year forward to get post up opportunities. For the rest of the preseason schedule, Duncan needs to just stay in shape and avoid injury.

Manu Ginobili
Manu Ginobili is playing a relaxed brand of basketball and is letting the game come to him. Considering it's preseason action and wins are meaningless, this is good news. Ginobili needs to ease his way into the regular season and avoid putting his body on the line. Like last season, his passing looks very good. For now Ginobili is starting, although I'm sure Pop will try a few more lineup combinations as preseason action continues.

Tony Parker
It's early but it's safe to say Tony Parker is primed for a bounce back season. His elite quickness looks to be back and he appears to be locked in mentally. His intensity when it came to defense and pushing the pace allowed the Spurs to gain an early advantage in this contest. If anything, my only critique with Parker right now is he might be playing too hard. Personally, I'd like for him to dial it back and let others create until the games begin to count.

Richard Jefferson
I wish I could say that Richard Jefferson looks much improved from last season ... but I can't. I was especially unimpressed by his transition defense and how slowly he navigated himself around picks. He's in better physical shape but we'll see if that translates to improvement on the basketball court. The best news regarding Jefferson is his offensive aggression from the perimeter. At the end of last season, he didn't like shooting from the outside. In the scrimmage and in the preseason opener, Jefferson has been letting it fly from range. Now if he can only starting making said attempts . . .

DeJuan Blair
In the summer, DeJuan Blair said he was going to start at power forward (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159208) this year. So far, it looks like he was telling the truth. At the very least, he brings a heightened activity level to the starting unit. Defensively, he used his quickness to disrupt a few possessions but still has a lot to learn in terms of his help defense responsibilities. On offense, he had trouble finishing against length a few times and his quick teardrop in the lane looked awkward, however he also flashed a lot of potential on that end. Blair is a young developing player with loads of upside. Let's hope the coaching staff allows him to reach his full potential.

Bobby Simmons
First the good news: Bobby Simmons didn't looked overmatched when playing power forward. His decision-making offensively is good and he's willing to bang down low on both ends. Unfortunately, his perimeter defense is extremely iffy. Considering he's a small forward by trade, that's quite harmful to his chances of making the team. As it stands, it looks like injuries have robbed him of the necessary athleticism to play in the NBA. He has the rest of preseason to prove differently.

Kirk Penney
After not getting much of a look in the scrimmage, Kirk Penney got extended minutes on Thursday night. As a shooting specialist, he may fit the part. He shoots when he's open with no second thought. He moves well off the ball. He handles the ball well enough to create a few shots. Where Penney struggles most is defensively. He's short for a shooting guard and also has slow feet. He shows adequate toughness so perhaps he can learn to compensate. Penney remains a longshot but he helped his chances tonight.

Matt Bonner
Matt Bonner nailed a three-pointer a few seconds after he entered the game ... and then didn't do much the rest of the way. Actually, he took a nasty swipe across the face courtesy of Kyle Lowry. That was notable. His defense, as is usually the case, was decent. What continues to concern me with Bonner is his rebounding. His rebounding rate gets worse and worse and I haven't seen anything to tell me that trend is reversible.

James Gist
It was more of what we saw from James Gist in the scrimmage: Tons of activity, inconsistent production. On defense, I thought he made a few really good rotations out on the perimeter. His presence down low, however, wasn't acceptable. With his athleticism, he needs to be more of a force. Offensively, I was surprised that the Spurs gave him a number of post up opportunities. I thought it was a good move because his outside shot isn't good enough for him to strictly be a stretch power forward. That said, he didn't have much success on the post. His footwork is poor and he doesn't seem to have enough strength to hold his position. Gist's overall package is intriguing but he remains more of an athlete rather than a basketball player.

Marcus Cousin
While it's highly unlikely he makes the Spurs out of camp, Marcus Cousin is starting to make a name for himself. For a 6-foot-11 bigman with a 7-foot-2 wingspan, Cousin's nimbleness is surprising. He quickly gets to his spots and is an aggressive rebounder. He has promise as a shotblocker and has even shown range on his jumper. Like I said after the scrimmage, getting this kid on the Toros would be a good idea. Even though he's 23 years old, he has a decent amount of potential and seems to be developing at a good pace.

Garrett Temple
A poor scrimmage was followed up by a poor preseason opener. Garrett Temple has to start playing better to make the team. Offensively, he's showing a scary amount of ineptness. His ballhandling has been suspect and he seems to either force the issue or be passive. For whatever reason, he looks uncomfortable at this early stage of the season. Hopefully he can calm down and get back to how he played last year. Theoretically, a big point guard who can defend multiple positions would be a perfect fit on this roster.

George Hill
George Hill really struggled in his first preseason game. The offensive rhythm vanished when he ran the team. When he looked to score, he did so mostly by isolating himself -- which made the offense even more ragged. Hill also didn't do much good on the defensive end. All in all, this was a game to forget.

Curtis Jerrells
I liked what I saw from Curtis Jerrells. He's still not a true NBA level prospect ... but he's getting there. Jerrells showed fight on the defensive end and he got the Spurs into their sets on the offense. A little bit more confidence and another step up in aggression and he may actually become a player the Spurs could potentially keep on board.

Gary Neal
Can he really play shooting guard in the NBA? That's the question I ask myself when I see Neal on the court. Honestly, it's difficult to imagine that the answer is yes. He's going to have to really shoot it straight to make it work. Otherwise, his lack of size and limited athleticism makes him a liability.

James Anderson
Oddly, James Anderson didn't get into the game until nine minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. It's plain to see that he has a natural feel for the game. He moves smoothly and looks to have adequate size for the NBA. Right now, I'm waiting to see if he has enough athleticism. Without it, Anderson may be the second coming of Chris Carrawell. Let's hope that isn't the case.

Gregg Popovich
I liked the starting lineup. The only thing that I might change is adding Hill and using Ginobili as the super sub. That way, Hill gets more guaranteed minutes and Ginobili can conserve his minutes. Not playing Anderson earlier was somewhat surprising. I'm not sure if Penney and Cousin got extra run because Pop is interested or because Pop is letting them play before they get cut. Speaking of extra run, I'm hoping we get longer looks at Gist, Temple, Neal and Alonzo Gee in upcoming preseason games. Those bubble players have a lot riding on these exhibition outings.

[FvckMavs]

Nice. Thanks a lot!

[duncan228]

Tim Duncan
One preseason game in and Tim Duncan looks ready for the regular season to begin. He's in good shape, he's moving well and there's not much summer rust. Like we saw in the scrimmage, Duncan is playing further out on the court. That works well when paired with DeJuan Blair because it allows the second-year forward to get post up opportunities. For the rest of the preseason schedule, Duncan needs to just stay in shape and avoid injury.


I think Duncan looks in better game shape at this point than he did coming into last year's preseason. Hope he stays healthy.

Thanks for the breakdown. :tu

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Downright stupid not to play Anderson alot.

Why the heck hold back on a preseason game.

Who do we think we are. This isn't 2006.

[DynastySpurs210]

4V9DjjEfrO8

[Nathan89]

I wish rj didn't still suck. 2-9

[ploto]

Newsflash-- Jefferson and Bonner sucked.

[DespЏrado]

Good overview...Right now it looks like Pop is setting up the preseason as a series of concentric circles. Players least likely to make the team, are getting the first looks and earliest opportunities, and if they shine or show enough they could continue to get enough burn to play in to the second set.

Spurs have got to find an answer at small forward soon though. I want to believe in Jefferson, because so much is riding on him, and Simmons has looked like a great addition on paper, but they have shown nothing on the court so far.

[Hooks]

Cousin is 6'11??? I thought he was like 6'9, I hope the Spurs keep him with the Toros, he's an extra big the Spurs could use if some sort of injury happens.

[Chomag]

RJ looks to be the biggest concern right now. He had 30 minutes in a pre-season game and still struggled with both offence and defence.

[AussieFanKurt]

why didnt they turf out RJ? sorry if its a dumb as fuck question but I have been following my team in australia over off season

[cutewizard]

Blair was a beast! In the first half, DeJuan Blair played like he was the best player in the NBA>

[The_Worlds_finest]

Downright stupid not to play Anderson alot.

Why the heck hold back on a preseason game.

Who do we think we are. This isn't 2006.

I think anderson might need an attitude adjustment. In 2k11 he is one of the few players making a face for his profile photo. Then top it off he didnt play much atall this game

[mountainballer]

btw. does it mean anything that Gee didn't play? (is he hurt?)

[ohmwrecker]

I like Neal, but he is probably going to have to show he can play some 1 to make the team. He was better than Jerrells, Temple and Penney.
Simmons showed that he is not the answer for the backup 3, but if he isn't, who is?
Where the fuck is Gee?
Cousin is a nice project player. I liked him in the scrimmage too. I can't see the Spurs keeping Gist over Cousin and I think Cousin is Toros bound.
Anderson will be alright, he is just really out of shape.
Garrett Temple . . . WTF?!

I'm not too worried about RJ. He looked really good when he was playing with a decent lineup. He played too many minutes on the "cut squad" and that's not how he is going to be used.

[Chieflion]

I think anderson might need an attitude adjustment. In 2k11 he is one of the few players making a face for his profile photo. Then top it off he didnt play much atall this game

You are overreacting.

[dougp]

Cousin needs to be signed, shipped to Austin for half the season and then brought back and given a chance after the ASB - he has potential to be our Birdman. I liked the way he played, but holy shit the dude looks like he's shooting in slow motion.

[TJastal]

Didn't see the game, but just from the comments and boxscore it seems like the spurs have a lot of mismatched pieces right now... guys who don't fit into traditional roles and have limited skillsets. I really think Pop is going to have a tough time figuring out what to do and who to play where. Personally I'm not that impressed with many of the new faces and I think the spurs would have been better served by retaining Hairston and Mahinmi , both of whom I think were more quality reserves IMO.

If it was up to me, Bonner wouldn't have been resigned (thus keeping the spurs near the tax threshold) and Jefferson and his expiring contract would have been set on the trading block immediately for just about anything the spurs need or could get their hands on... especially small forwards.

Out of the new faces, I like what I've read about Penney's shooting & Jerrels gives the spurs a really good ballhandler/traditional pg, so I would have kept these two and cut all of Neal, Temple (never liked him much), Simmons, Gist & Gee.

This would have been my hypothetical lineup.

C Duncan, Mahinmi
PF Blair, Splitter, McDyess
SF Jefferson Hairston, Penney
SG Ginobili, Hill, Anderson
PG Parker, Jerrels

This would have been my 13 man roster which I feel very confident would have been an effective one.

[TJastal]

I really shudder to think what/who Pop is finally going to cut/keep and how minutes are going to be distributed.

[ohmwrecker]

I love TJ's "what if" posts . . .

There is no way that Penney is a SF by any stretch of the imagination.

[TJastal]

I love TJ's "what if" posts . . .

There is no way that Penney is a SF by any stretch of the imagination.

He's 6'5" 220 that's as big as Bogans was and centerpiece played some SF and even some PF so why the hell not? I'd be more concerned with Penney at the 2 where his slow feet will be more of a liability.

[ElNono]

Thanks for the writeup.

[ajballer4]

Where was Gee?

[lefty]

WTF Pop

Next time, give more PT to Anderson

[elec99]

I know it's only preseason, but:

Since I'm only looking at the boxscore, I wonder if Cousin is anything to look at. Almost a double double.
And, RJ, wtf? With 30 min, I assume he's going up against a squad the rockets are testing out too, and only 2 of 9?

[ohmwrecker]

He's 6'5" 220 that's as big as Bogans was and centerpiece played some SF and even some PF so why the hell not?

Well, that worked out pretty good . . . What a great argument. You've convinced me! Penney is our backup 3!

[Obstructed_View]

Well, that worked out pretty good . . . What a great argument. You've convinced me! Penney is our backup 3!

Didn't TJ have him as the third 3 in his scenario? I would have been happy to have Bogans as the third small forward in the game.

[Interrohater]

I know it's only preseason, but:

Since I'm only looking at the boxscore, I wonder if Cousin is anything to look at. Almost a double double.
And, RJ, wtf? With 30 min, I assume he's going up against a squad the rockets are testing out too, and only 2 of 9?

Actually, the Rockets played their starters for extended minutes. I haven't seen their boxscore, but I swear Aaron Brooks and Battier were out there forever. No excuses for RJ though, only to say that he looked very comfortable in the system at least. He looks like he knows where he's going and what he's doing, so hopefully he just had an off night. I doubt it, but I have to remain optimistic.

Also, there's absolutely no way that Kirk Penney can be a SF. His measurements might be greatly exaggerated as he's kind of a small guy out there. He's only a shooter, let's not make him anything more than that.

[ohmwrecker]

Didn't TJ have him as the third 3 in his scenario? I would have been happy to have Bogans as the third small forward in the game.

Yes. Third 3 behind a ghost.

[TJastal]

Well, that worked out pretty good . . . What a great argument. You've convinced me! Penney is our backup 3!

IIRC centerpiece seemed to play better the furthur up he played in the lineup, which Pop finally figured out in the last few months of the season. Seemingly, mediocre at 2, above average when he played the 3, and very decent whenever he as asked to guard 4's.

Not saying Penney is the same player exactly (probably isn't quite as strong as centerpiece so couldn't guard 4's), but he's the same build and burly like Bogans was so its not a stretch to think he could adequately check 3's.

[ChumpDumper]

Penney can't guard anyone.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes. Third 3 behind a ghost.

If you don't want to stick with the hypothetical, then you probably shouldn't reply to it. Nobody implied that he should be the backup but you.

[TJastal]

Penney can't guard anyone.

Bonner can't either?

[yavozerb]

Bonner can't either?

Bonners defense is average by NBA standards...

[TJastal]

If you don't want to stick with the hypothetical, then you probably shouldn't reply to it. Nobody implied that he should be the backup but you.

Its hardly a big deal anyway, I could have just switched Anderson and Penney in the hypothetical lineup. Alot of people seem to think Anderson can play the 3. There, problem solved now he can't bitch.

[ChumpDumper]

Bonner can't either?And that helps your argument that Penney can "adequately check 3's" how?

[ohmwrecker]

If you don't want to stick with the hypothetical, then you probably shouldn't reply to it. Nobody implied that he should be the backup but you.

I'm just pointing out the general absurdity of the whole thing. Apologies, TJ.

I am genuinely concerned about the reality of the backup 3 and I guess I'm not in the mood for hypothetical solutions.

Is it really hypothetical if he is including players who aren't on the team anymore. I think that is bordering more on fantasy.

[TJastal]

Bonners defense is average by NBA standards...

I wonder if Tim Duncan would concur with you on that speculation. All I ever see plastered on Duncan's face after playing any kind of extended minutes with Bonner is a disgusted look.

Personally I think Bonner's defense is well below average. He's below average in man to man and almost completely insignificant as a help defender. I'm not sure what other criteria you could add, he doesn't get many steals and he tends to get whistled quite often for minimal contact.

[anakha]

All I ever see plastered on Duncan's face after playing any kind of extended minutes with Bonner is a disgusted look.


Proof please.

[ohmwrecker]

Bonner is an average defender. He is a below average rebounder.

[ChumpDumper]

If Duncan hated Bonner as much as you say, he wouldn't be on the team.

[yavozerb]

I wonder if Tim Duncan would concur with you on that speculation. All I ever see plastered on Duncan's face after playing any kind of extended minutes with Bonner is a disgusted look.

Personally I think Bonner's defense is well below average. He's below average in man to man and almost completely insignificant as a help defender. I'm not sure what other criteria you could add, he doesn't get many steals and he tends to get whistled quite often for minimal contact.

:lol, so you really get that when looking at TD's face, wierd....I didn't realize that any spurs player had alot of steals so therefore there are no good defenders according this logic. Wow, the whole whistles for minimal contact (:lmao) rational is too much too handle and is sign that you know nothing of basketball my man. No need to go on with this conversation.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm just pointing out the general absurdity of the whole thing. Apologies, TJ.

I am genuinely concerned about the reality of the backup 3 and I guess I'm not in the mood for hypothetical solutions.

Is it really hypothetical if he is including players who aren't on the team anymore. I think that is bordering more on fantasy.

Realistically, I'm in agreement with you. There only seems to be one guy on the roster with the actual size to play the three and he's just not looking like he's very good. The Spurs seem to really be in love with anyone that's 6'6" or under, and the pronouncement that they're going to carry 13 guys worries me because I think it's more likely for financial reasons than to keep spots open for later additions.

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner's defense is far above average by NBA standards when you look, realistically, at what he is.

He's a bulky small forward who was asked to start for the majority of an NBA season at center. There aren't many guys who can do that at all. Bonner did the best he could with it. He's not a shot blocker, he's not long, he's not a great leaper, and he doesn't get respect from the refs. Despite that, he kept guys in front of him, kept a hand in their face managed not to foul out constantly and kept his cool.

[TJastal]

I'm just pointing out the general absurdity of the whole thing. Apologies, TJ.

I am genuinely concerned about the reality of the backup 3 and I guess I'm not in the mood for hypothetical solutions.

Is it really hypothetical if he is including players who aren't on the team anymore. I think that is bordering more on fantasy.

If one never looks back and analyzes what the FO is doing everyone would tend towards homerism. Which seems to be what most people around here do. I'm not a FO cheerleader like you however.

[ohmwrecker]

Realistically, I'm in agreement with you. There only seems to be one guy on the roster with the actual size to play the three and he's just not looking like he's very good. The Spurs seem to really be in love with anyone that's 6'6" or under, and the pronouncement that they're going to carry 13 guys worries me because I think it's more likely for financial reasons than to keep spots open for later additions.

Yeah, Simmons is disappointing, but I would be willing to give him a longer look because he was a legit NBA player. Not too good so far . . .

I think the Spurs are being financially cautious right now because they don't have a player worth throwing a contract at, but if the right player became available, they would spend the cash.

[ChumpDumper]

Being a fan of a team tends towards homerism.

You never told me how Bonner's lack of defense supports your argument that Penney "can adequately check 3's."

[ohmwrecker]

If one never looks back and analyzes what the FO is doing everyone would tend towards homerism. Which seems to be what most people around here do. I'm not a FO cheerleader like you however.

Two words: Luis Scola


I don't think not incessantly whining about letting Hairston and Mahinmi go makes me a "FO cheerleader".

[TJastal]

Being a fan of a team tends towards homerism.

You never told me how Bonner's lack of defense supports your argument that Penney "can adequately check 3's."

Bonner gets minutes by spreading the floor and being an offensive threat, not by shutting anyone down.

Using this logic, couldn't Penney pick up a role on the spurs doing essentially the same thing?

[dougp]

OB & CD - what do you guys think about Cousins?

[TJastal]

Bonner's defense is far above average by NBA standards when you look, realistically, at what he is.

He's a bulky small forward who was asked to start for the majority of an NBA season at center. There aren't many guys who can do that at all. Bonner did the best he could with it. He's not a shot blocker, he's not long, he's not a great leaper, and he doesn't get respect from the refs. Despite that, he kept guys in front of him, kept a hand in their face managed not to foul out constantly and kept his cool.

So essentially Bonner sucked at center but he tried real hard. And would suck almost as much at PF, suck alot more at SF, suck even worse than that at SG, and really fucking suck at PG.

Thanks for laying that out for us.

[TJastal]

OB & CD - what do you guys think about Cousins?

He sucks, but tries really really hard. I say we give him a contract.

[ChumpDumper]

Bonner gets minutes by spreading the floor and being an offensive threat, not by shutting anyone down.

Using this logic, couldn't Penney pick up a role on the spurs doing essentially the same thing?This does nothing to support your argument that Penney can adequately check 3s.


OB & CD - what do you guys think about Cousins?Kind of slow, but keeps moving to the right places on D. Decent hands, but no post up game at all. Nice timing on blocks. Frame looks like he could take a few more pounds. Could be on the end of some NBA bench this season.

[ChumpDumper]

He sucks, but tries really really hard. I say we give him a contract.That's your take on Penney.

[dougp]

Kind of slow, but keeps moving to the right places on D. Decent hands, but no post up game at all. Nice timing on blocks. Frame looks like he could take a few more pounds. Could be on the end of some NBA bench this season.

Think we should keep him?

C- Duncan, McDyess, Cousins
PF - Blair, Splitter, Bonner

He'd learn a lot from McDyess, and we really need a big that positions correctly on defense, even in garbage time. He does have that slow pull up / odd shake that worked a few times too.

[duncan228]

Preseason: Houston Rockets 90, San Antonio Spurs 87 (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/)
by Andrew A. McNeill
48 Minutes of Hell

TOYOTA CENTER — It wasn’t a packed house and there wasn’t a lot of fanfare, at least not for the silver and black, but the San Antonio Spurs finally tipped-off their season on Thursday night in a 90-87 loss to the Houston Rockets. Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich mixed both veterans and roster hopefuls in his lineups throughout the night.

“I was just trying to give everybody a chance to show what they can do, and get ready for the season at the same time,” Coach Popovich said after the game.

Keep reading → (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2010/10/08/spurs-fall-to-rockets-in-preseason/#more-9979)

[ChumpDumper]

Think we should keep him?

C- Duncan, McDyess, Cousins
PF - Blair, Splitter, Bonner

He'd learn a lot from McDyess, and we really need a big that positions correctly on defense, even in garbage time. He does have that slow pull up / odd shake that worked a few times too.I'd like to see him stay at least the whole training camp, but he'll probably be waived and picked up by the Toros if not some other team. If the Spurs only keep 13 players initially, they might be able to sign someone like Cooze at a later date. He could conceivably learn some offense in Austin.

[rjv]

pop's lineups in preseason never concern me at all. it's been clear over the years his only concern is to take a look at siutations and players first and foremost. i am sure anderson has his minutes coming to him.

[TJastal]

Preseason: Houston Rockets 90, San Antonio Spurs 87 (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/)
by Andrew A. McNeill
48 Minutes of Hell

TOYOTA CENTER — It wasn’t a packed house and there wasn’t a lot of fanfare, at least not for the silver and black, but the San Antonio Spurs finally tipped-off their season on Thursday night in a 90-87 loss to the Houston Rockets. Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich mixed both veterans and roster hopefuls in his lineups throughout the night.

“I was just trying to give everybody a chance to show what they can do, and get ready for the season at the same time,” Coach Popovich said after the game.

Keep reading → (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2010/10/08/spurs-fall-to-rockets-in-preseason/#more-9979)

So Neal has "fantastic handles" .... if this is true I think this gets him a spot on the team over Garrett Temple, who seems to be struggling in this area.

Without good handles Temple brings virtually nothing to the table that Hill doesn't already do and do better.

[TJastal]

pop's lineups in preseason never concern me at all. it's been clear over the years his only concern is to take a look at siutations and players first and foremost. i am sure anderson has his minutes coming to him.

Nah, me either. Last year when Pop had Bonner and Finley starting in preseason I knew it was just Pop being a silly goose.

[Dex]

Cousins looked like Mahinmi with a brain out there. If they don't try to at least stash that guy away to the Toros, I'll be even more confused about the whole Ian fiasco.

[jjktkk]

If one never looks back and analyzes what the FO is doing everyone would tend towards homerism. Which seems to be what most people around here do. I'm not a FO cheerleader like you however.

Who exactly is a FO cheerleader. No need to get upset that most of vet. ST posters think your Spurs lineup predictions are goofy.

[Obstructed_View]

So essentially Bonner sucked at center but he tried real hard. And would suck almost as much at PF, suck alot more at SF, suck even worse than that at SG, and really fucking suck at PG.

Thanks for laying that out for us.

Um, no. Bonner is a role player who had no business playing center for an NBA team, let alone being made to start for most of a season, yet some idiot put him in that position and he was good enough to hold his own against NBA starters while he did.

It's sort of like if Pop had made him the starting point guard and you were in here whining that he sucks because he only got 4.8 assists per game.

Look, you wanna shit on him because he isn't clutch? Okay. You wanna take shots at him because he's white and runs like a dipshit, and he's kind of clumsy like a puppy without the cuteness? All right. Don't say that he's a horrible defender when he was able to check the top bigs in the NBA every night and managed to hold his own despite not having any of the physical tools to do it with.

[angelbelow]

Cousins looked like Mahinmi with a brain out there. If they don't try to at least stash that guy away to the Toros, I'll be even more confused about the whole Ian fiasco.

Before halftime I thought he was a sure fire cut after the game. But he just seemed to work harder and harder which led to him improving through-out the game. I'm def. interested to see more (since splitter is out) and see if we can get him on the toros.

From time to time his hands seem to be a suspect but a few times i thought it was Blair ripping down some of the rebounds he did.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry, but in my book boxing out and rebounding is an integral part of playing defense in the interior. If you're going to tell me Bonner plays passable man-to-man defense and sucks at everything else, then you're telling me he's a terrible defender for the position he plays at.

That said, Penney is worse, and while he could be a specialist much like Mason, do you really want to have another guy that plays zero defense on the team?

[ElNono]

Um, no. Bonner is a role player who had no business playing center for an NBA team, let alone being made to start for most of a season, yet some idiot put him in that position and he was good enough to hold his own against NBA starters while he did.

I disagree. He's worthless from the bench too. He's simply not a piece for a team that's aspiring for a championship.


Look, you wanna shit on him because he isn't clutch? Okay. You wanna take shots at him because he's white and runs like a dipshit, and he's kind of clumsy like a puppy without the cuteness? All right. Don't say that he's a horrible defender when he was able to check the top bigs in the NBA every night and managed to hold his own despite not having any of the physical tools to do it with.

He is a terrible defender. We must have seen different games, because he didn't hold his own at all. Who did he held his own against?
And I absolutely agree he doesn't have the tools to do it, which is why it's baffling he's still around.

[The Truth #6]

Re: Bonner's defense - I agree that he tries hard, knows where to be, and puts a hand in the guy's face and that sort of thing, but I think he's very ineffective in getting results. One of the many reasons he might be a poor rebounder is that his man is often scoring and there isn't a rebound to be had.

[Brazil]

I never saw bonner as a really bad defender, he is not that bad. Sometimes he is actually pretty good but I don't know why every guy coming at him is shooting tough shots, being hot etc etc... Bonner must be a victim of his bad reputation...

[Obstructed_View]

He is a terrible defender. We must have seen different games, because he didn't hold his own at all. Who did he held his own against?
And I absolutely agree he doesn't have the tools to do it, which is why it's baffling he's still around.

So when Chris Paul rotates to Dirk Nowitzki on a pick and roll and Dirk just shoots a jumper over him, does that mean Chris Paul is a terrible defender?

When you have short arms and you can't jump, the best you can do when defending someone in the post is to move him out the best you can, Don't let him by you and to have a hand up when he shoots. Go back and look at how many starting bigs shot their average or below when Bonner was the primary defender on them. That's how often he held his own. There were far more times that season that Finley would be put on a guy and that guy would instantly torch the Spurs for a huge amount of points in a short span. THAT is terrible defense.

If you're baffled why he's still around, take it up with the guy who keeps bringing him back, but don't go after him for doing the best he can whenever he's on the floor.

There's a reason some of us have been calling for the Spurs to play Mahinmi or Ratliff all this time.

[ElNono]

So when Chris Paul rotates to Dirk Nowitzki on a pick and roll and Dirk just shoots a jumper over him, does that mean Chris Paul is a terrible defender?

You're comparing apples to oranges. Chris Paul is a guard. Matt Bonner is not. Just look at the huge difference of Dice guarding Dirk vs Bonner guarding him. And it's not just the man to man. Look at second-chances, a big problem this team has had in the last few seasons because of the combination of TD's decline and the fact that Matty can't box out or rebound for shit.


When you have short arms and you can't jump, the best you can do when defending someone in the post is to move him out the best you can, Don't let him by you and to have a hand up when he shoots. Go back and look at how many starting bigs shot their average or below when Bonner was the primary defender on them. That's how often he held his own. There were far more times that season that Finley would be put on a guy and that guy would instantly torch the Spurs for a huge amount of points in a short span. THAT is terrible defense.

You're just setting the bar way, way low. You tell me Bonner is a good defender because he's better than Finley? Did you want Finley playing defense at PF to begin with?

Sure, it wasn't Finley's fault he played there or Bonner's fault that he plays where he plays, but the reality is that they did and do, and they suck at it.
You can pin the blame on whoever you want, but the reality is that the one that suffers is the team in general, and in the case of Bonner, Tim in particular, because he has to work twice as hard on defense.


If you're baffled why he's still around, take it up with the guy who keeps bringing him back, but don't go after him for doing the best he can whenever he's on the floor.

There's a reason some of us have been calling for the Spurs to play Mahinmi or Ratliff all this time.

Well, I'm sorry I wasn't specific in that particular post, but in the one above I did specify that he's terrible 'for the position he plays at'. Feel free to blame Pop, Matt, the mother theresa, or whatever. Just don't tell me he's 'average' doing what he does, because he's not.

This team is looking for a championship. The whole, 'for being non-mobile, can't jump, can move quick enough, he does a good job' and still give the guy a lot of burn is really being complacent (not you obviously).

[rjv]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Chris Paul is a guard. Matt Bonner is not. Just look at the huge difference of Dice guarding Dirk vs Bonner guarding him. And it's not just the man to man. Look at second-chances, a big problem this team has had in the last few seasons because of the combination of TD's decline and the fact that Matty can't box out or rebound for shit.



You're just setting the bar way, way low. You tell me Bonner is a good defender because he's better than Finley? Did you want Finley playing defense at PF to begin with?

Sure, it wasn't Finley's fault he played there or Bonner's fault that he plays where he plays, but the reality is that they did and do, and they suck at it.
You can pin the blame on whoever you want, but the reality is that the one that suffers is the team in general, and in the case of Bonner, Tim in particular, because he has to work twice as hard on defense.



Well, I'm sorry I wasn't specific in that particular post, but in the one above I did specify that he's terrible 'for the position he plays at'. Feel free to blame Pop, Matt, the mother theresa, or whatever. Just don't tell me he's 'average' doing what he does, because he's not.

This team is looking for a championship. The whole, 'for being non-mobile, can't jump, can move quick enough, he does a good job' and still give the guy a lot of burn is really being complacent (not you obviously).

it really is mother theresa's fault.

[Obstructed_View]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Chris Paul is a guard. Matt Bonner is not. Just look at the huge difference of Dice guarding Dirk vs Bonner guarding him. And it's not just the man to man. Look at second-chances, a big problem this team has had in the last few seasons because of the combination of TD's decline and the fact that Matty can't box out or rebound for shit.

Matt Bonner isn't a guard, but he's not a center. He's not really even a power forward, truth be told. From a body type standpoint he's the anti-Blair. The Spurs have pretty much put Duncan out on an island defensively since the '06 playoffs, and it's been, for the most part, a disaster.

The bottom line, though, is that results count, and the results tend to support the conclusion that he's a terrible defender. I'm on record saying he does his best, and I'll just leave it at that. I certainly don't want the motherfucker starting, and I'd be pleased if he were somewhere else. Whoever decided to give him that big contract needs a kick in the nuts.

[analyzed]

The US system of traditionally rating and assessing players (draft, college experience, combine etc) is not the be all and end all of what makes a quality player or find. Last I heard basketball is still a 5 man team game decided on the court. What people forget is that some of these players who have been undrafted or didn’t standout in US college, but eventually made a career in Europe , have heaps of big game experience.
Between a player like Gist or Gee who have great athletic potential and players like Penny or Neal who are limited athletically , but have heaps of big game experience and are fundamentally superior.
I would always go for the latter ( actual big game experience internationally) especially if the purpose is to of provide quality back-up minutes. People assume that good fundamental team basketball, and basketball IQ can easily be picked up by getting an individually talented player to learn the system. (note: there not going to learn it playing limited or no minutes in the NBA) Now remember these other guys who have played in europe, have lived and breathed big game team oriented basketball , that is a skill that seperates them from a player inexpereinced to quality level leagues

[objective]

Just because Bonner tries hard doesn't mean he doesn't fail.

I've posted it before about Bonner and I'll post it again, the old Wooden saying:

"Don't mistake activity for achievement."

Yes, Bonner is active. But unless your idea of achievement is playoff bricks mixed in with getting pancaked by Dampier while getting some big time dollars, Bonner does not achieve for the Spurs.

[ElNono]

Matt Bonner isn't a guard, but he's not a center. He's not really even a power forward, truth be told. From a body type standpoint he's the anti-Blair. The Spurs have pretty much put Duncan out on an island defensively since the '06 playoffs, and it's been, for the most part, a disaster.

The bottom line, though, is that results count, and the results tend to support the conclusion that he's a terrible defender. I'm on record saying he does his best, and I'll just leave it at that. I certainly don't want the motherfucker starting, and I'd be pleased if he were somewhere else. Whoever decided to give him that big contract needs a kick in the nuts.


Just because Bonner tries hard doesn't mean he doesn't fail.

I've posted it before about Bonner and I'll post it again, the old Wooden saying:

"Don't mistake activity for achievement."

Yes, Bonner is active. But unless your idea of achievement is playoff bricks mixed in with getting pancaked by Dampier while getting some big time dollars, Bonner does not achieve for the Spurs.

Thank you. I'll file this under Mother Theresa and we'll review it once we figure out he didn't turn out to be the 5th big on this team. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

I heard somebody seriously refer to Bonner as a "7 footer" on this forum the other day. Obviously they aren't the only person with that delusion. :pop:

[jjktkk]

I disagree. He's worthless from the bench too. He's simply not a piece for a team that's aspiring for a championship.



He is a terrible defender. We must have seen different games, because he didn't hold his own at all. Who did he held his own against?
And I absolutely agree he doesn't have the tools to do it, which is why it's baffling he's still around.

Last year Bonner more than held his own against Menmphis' Zach Randolph. Look it up. But most knowledgable basket people realize Bonner is not a dominat 4, or 5. He is a big that can shoot and play passable defense.

[elemento]

Bonner's role is basically 3P shooting. He can't do anything besides that.

The starters looked great, except for RJ. He showed some improvement, but it's still not enough. I hope he gets better during the season.

[ElNono]

Last year Bonner more than held his own against Menmphis' Zach Randolph. Look it up. But most knowledgable basket people realize Bonner is not a dominat 4, or 5. He is a big that can shoot and play passable defense.

I had to go look it up... This is how Zack did against us last season:

23pts - 15rbs: Spurs lost (Matt didn't play this game)
19pts - 13rbs: Spurs win (Matt played 10 mins, Zach 38 mins)
15pts - 7rbs: Spurs win (I assume the game you recall, 4-12 for Zach here)
28pts - 15rbs: Spurs lost (:wow)

Here's the rebound stats for Matt in those games:
DNP
0 rebounds in 10 mins
5 rebounds in 25 mins (decent, he also had the highest +/- with +28)
4 rebounds in 34 mins (:depressed)

And this was against a Memphis team that ended up with a 40-42 record. We're not even talking top tier team here.

I agree he's not a 4 or a 5. We need a good 4 or 5 to help Tim and he's not it. Let's hope Tiago is.

[yavozerb]

I had to go look it up... This is how Zack did against us last season:

23pts - 15rbs: Spurs lost (Matt didn't play this game)
19pts - 13rbs: Spurs win (Matt played 10 mins, Zach 38 mins)
15pts - 7rbs: Spurs win (I assume the game you recall, 4-12 for Zach here)
28pts - 15rbs: Spurs lost (:wow)

Here's the rebound stats for Matt in those games:
DNP
0 rebounds in 10 mins
5 rebounds in 25 mins (decent, he also had the highest +/- with +28)
4 rebounds in 34 mins (:depressed)

And this was against a Memphis team that ended up with a 40-42 record. We're not even talking top tier team here.

I agree he's not a 4 or a 5. We need a good 4 or 5 to help Tim and he's not it. Let's hope Tiago is.

Not sure what your trying to prove with those numbers..Randolph was an all-star and had similar numbers against most teams last season. I am pretty sure we are all in agreement that Bonner is a below average rebounder. thanks for the rebound numbers i guess..

[ElNono]

Not sure what your trying to prove with those numbers..Randolph was an all-star and had similar numbers against most teams last season. I am pretty sure we are all in agreement that Bonner is a below average rebounder. thanks for the rebound numbers i guess..

You asked me to look up how Bonner held his own against Zach Randolph last season. I did, and I don't see it. If you do, good for you.

[GSH]

The Spurs took more field goal attempts and made more field goals than the Rockets. They pulled down more rebounds, and dished out more assists. They committed fewer turnovers, and outscored Houston by 14 points in the paint.

That would normally be enough to get a win. But when it was all said and done, they couldn't overcome a deficit of 16 from the free throw line. The Spurs actually shot a higher percentage from the line than Houston - but the Rockets made up for it in sheer volume.

I know it's still pre-season, but it's one of my big worries for the team this year. It's hard to overcome a deficit in FTA's night after night. And I think we are going to be in that position often against the better teams in the league. Duncan isn't drawing as many whistles as he used to. RJ is nowhere near the foul-drawing machine he used to be. Tony doesn't get as many whistles as the other top-tier PG's in the league. Bonner almost never gets to the line. You get the idea.

Hopefully Manu will get his share of calls, and Hill will learn how to sell the fouls even better. (He's not bad, for a young player, but we need more.) If Blair gets a little more respect from the refs, and Splitter commands some hard fouls, we may be okay. But without those guys getting to the line, we're going to have a lot of uphill battles.

[jjktkk]

You asked me to look up how Bonner held his own against Zach Randolph last season. I did, and I don't see it. If you do, good for you.

Never said anything about rebounds. Bonner is a below average rebounder. I though we were talking about Bonner's defensive ability, not his subpar rebounding stats.

[polandprzem]

Everything cool and all but why Parkers name is not bolded?

timvp forgot it?

But why did he not forgot to bold Manus name?



Interesting/

[polandprzem]

It was a nice game, but still RJ is not looking much differently in style from the previous season.
Simmons got good fundamentals but lack of athleticism will not let him play IMO for this team. But maybe Pop will find other advantages that Bobby can bring? Ala Massenburg

Hopefully all out in good shape big three gonna stay at this shape type level for the rest of a season. But I'm concerned they won't be able to speed up for the playoffs.

[Bruno]

What is surprising in this game is that Pop gave RJ 30 minutes in the first preseason game while all the other vets get less than 20 minutes.

I hope the reason is that RJ will get a DNP-CD today against Miami. Pop said that the first criteria for the backup SF spot will be defense. A matchup against Lebron James will be perfect to judge Gee's, Simmons' and Anderson's defensive abilities.

[SenorSpur]

What is surprising in this game is that Pop gave RJ 30 minutes in the first preseason game while all the other vets get less than 20 minutes.

I hope the reason is that RJ will get a DNP-CD today against Miami. Pop said that the first criteria for the backup SF spot will be defense. A matchup against Lebron James will be perfect to judge Gee's, Simmons' and Anderson's defensive abilities.

...or it could be the worst possible scenario for any Spurs player trying to defend him. LeQuit is likely make all of them look like children.

[Chieflion]

...or it could be the worst possible scenario for any Spurs player trying to defend him. LeQuit is likely make all of them look like children.

Pretty much going to happen. He made Durant know who is still the best after he declined his party invitation. The Spurs' contenders for backups at the 3 spot wouldn't know what hit them.

I would personally be more worried about the matchup against Bosh if the game is meaningful. Bosh, I believe has actually led the Heat in scoring in the games at least twice, with extremely good efficiency.

[SenorSpur]

After watching last year's playoffs, one of my biggest worries about this Spurs team is their ability to defend on the perimeter - or lack thereof. We were all witnesses (pardon the pun) as to how PHX repeatedly exploited the Spurs and literally ran circles around their defense last spring. While Tiago will help defend pick-n-rolls, as well as providing an interior presence, it still doesn't solve the issue on the outside.

This was probably the Spurs biggest area of weakness heading into the offseason and quite frankly, there wasn't enough done to address it. Unless one of their existing players emerges as a plausible perimeter defender (Gee, Gist, Simmons), I fully expect the Spurs to have the same issue again this season. Which means certain teams will again be able to exploit them the way PHX did.

I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

[Chieflion]

After watching last year's playoffs, one of my biggest worries about this Spurs team is their ability to defend on the perimeter - or lack thereof. We were all witnesses (pardon the pun) as to how PHX repeatedly exploited the Spurs and literally ran circles around their defense last spring. While Tiago will help defend pick-n-rolls, as well as providing an interior presence, it still doesn't solve the issue on the outside.

This was probably the Spurs biggest area of weakness heading into the offseason and quite frankly, there wasn't enough done to address it. Unless one of their existing players emerges as a plausible perimeter defender (Gee, Gist, Simmons), I fully expect the Spurs to have the same issue again this season. Which means certain teams will again be able to exploit them the way PHX did.

I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.
In the playoffs last season, the Spurs regularly trotted out a lineup of perimeter players of Parker, Hill and Ginobili. Someone was going to get abused no matter what, because there would be a mismatch at the SG position or the PG position because both Nash and Richardson can score anywhere, and they know it. When Jefferson was in the game, Grant Hill dribbled in and took mid-range jumpers, which the Spurs don't usually contest very well.

Unless a team in the playoffs has a combination of at least 2 players on the perimeter that are good scorers, they can't abuse the Spurs like the Suns did. The Spurs would match up bad against the Heat (Wade and LeBron), Celtics (Rondo, Allen, Pierce) and Magic (Nelson, Carter), but they are all in the East. I have doubts about the Celtics combination because of age and the Magic's combination because of inconsistency but the Heat's combination would destroy not just the Spurs but every team in the league.

[Fabbs]

Richard Jefferson
I wish I could say that Richard Jefferson looks much improved from last season ... but I can't. I was especially unimpressed by his transition defense and how slowly he navigated himself around picks. He's in better physical shape but we'll see if that translates to improvement on the basketball court. The best news regarding Jefferson is his offensive aggression from the perimeter. At the end of last season, he didn't like shooting from the outside. In the scrimmage and in the preseason opener, Jefferson has been letting it fly from range. Now if he can only starting making said attempts . . .
http://www.cloudfantasy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Michael-Finley-Waived.jpg

[will_spurs]

I didn't see the game and have never seen Cousin play... what positions could he possibly play? any chance he could be of use as a backup SF at some point?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Matt Bonner nailed a three-pointer a few seconds after he entered the game ... and then didn't do much the rest of the way.

Good to hear Bonner is already in playoff form.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't see the game and have never seen Cousin play... what positions could he possibly play? any chance he could be of use as a backup SF at some point?Cooze can play mostly center and a little bit of center.

[ohmwrecker]

So, I got called out on another thread for not "bitching" about Timvp being negative about RJ. I don't feel like doing that. So, I will just defer to Pop . . .


“I think he’s been aggressive looking for his shot, they didn’t fall tonight but he looked for it,” Coach Pop said. “We want that aggressiveness out of him.”


“I thought he worked hard on ‘D,’ and he’s in very good shape,” Pop said. “So, just what we want him to do.”

[benefactor]

:lol

[ohmwrecker]

You are :lol on the outside, but :cry on the inside.

[benefactor]

You are :lol on the outside, but :cry on the inside.
Forgive me for intruding. I will go back to my thread while you continue your RJ ball cupping in peace. Carry on.

[ohmwrecker]

Forgive me for intruding. I will go back to my thread while you continue your RJ ball cupping in peace. Carry on.

I thought that's what you were doing? You know, like when you are mean to the girl you love because you are confused by your emotions . . . Do you love RJ?

[benefactor]

Nope...they are completely clear. Much like yours.

[ohmwrecker]

Don't hide from your feelings.

[angelbelow]

Cooze can play mostly center and a little bit of center.

lol

[Agloco]

Well this is priceless.......watching the same suspects (or suspect as it were) getting owned.

:lol

[mingus]

After watching last year's playoffs, one of my biggest worries about this Spurs team is their ability to defend on the perimeter - or lack thereof. We were all witnesses (pardon the pun) as to how PHX repeatedly exploited the Spurs and literally ran circles around their defense last spring. While Tiago will help defend pick-n-rolls, as well as providing an interior presence, it still doesn't solve the issue on the outside.

This was probably the Spurs biggest area of weakness heading into the offseason and quite frankly, there wasn't enough done to address it. Unless one of their existing players emerges as a plausible perimeter defender (Gee, Gist, Simmons), I fully expect the Spurs to have the same issue again this season. Which means certain teams will again be able to exploit them the way PHX did.

I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

it's true. I think everyone hoped RJ would be able to revialize the defensive part of his game and George Hill would become an Elite defender, which is what Pop (and we) expected from him originally. Hopefully those two guys can pull through.

[objective]

RJ was so bad that his failure to be a stopper resulted in the nightmare that was the Centerpiece.

Now there's no Centerpiece, there's no Hairston, there's only cement shoes Masterpiece Simmons and heavyset hamstrung rookie Anderson. And DNP Gee.

4 more years of RJ!