Random Spurs news updates 10/10/10

[ace3g]

JMcDonald_SAEN
Manu says Pop has been emphasizing running game. "It can give you like six, eight points without working so hard," Manu says.

spurs San Antonio Spurs
Matt Bonner told us at practice that a burrito is closer to a sandwich than a taco. And that is your Sunday practice report. #GoSpursGo


JMcDonald_SAEN Jeff McDonald
Bonner will wear "self-invented" splint on sprained left thumb. "Now I know what 99 percent of the animals feel like, w/o having a thumb."

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I really like that Pop is emphasizing a running game. This should really help players like RJ the most and utilize his strengths.

The Spurs definitely have the personnel to wreak havoc out on the break. :tu

[ElNono]

I guess emphasizing defense is a lost cause... :depressed

Maybe with the run 'n gun game we'll win the ratings championship... SSOL here we come!

[SenorSpur]

With Manu being perhaps THE best passer on the team, I'm sure he's especially encouraged by that, as I'm sure Parker is too. Besides, Parker has been a one-man fast break for years, with little to one else running with him.

Furthermore, a deliberate running game would benefit RJ and the crop of new young guns, like Anderson, Hill and Blair.

Because the Spurs leave so many points on the table from missed FTs, I've always been of the belief that they should try and get as many easy baskets as possible.

[jjktkk]

with manu being perhaps the best passer on the team, i'm sure he's especially encouraged by that, as i'm sure parker is too. Besides, parker has been a one-man fast break for years, with little to one else running with him.

Furthermore, a deliberate running game would benefit rj and the crop of new young guns, like anderson, hill and blair.

Because the spurs leave so many points on the table from missed fts, i've always been of the belief that they should try and get as many easy baskets as possible.

+1

[jjktkk]

I guess emphasizing defense is a lost cause... :depressed

Maybe with the run 'n gun game we'll win the ratings championship... SSOL here we come!

Boy, your just a ray of shineshine. You actually think a defensive coach like Pop would not emphasize defense? Maybe Pop has come to the conclusion that this current Spurs roster no longer has the defensive lock down ability of Spurs teams of the past. That doesn't me Pop doesn't emphasize defense, but by trying to rev up the running game, he is playing to a the strengths of this Spurs team, which is more atheltic and should be able to run more.

[Solid D]

Blair was the first out on the break a couple of times last night after high screen plays. He got out pretty quickly.

[ChuckD]

I guess that explains that ridiculous 45 foot pass from Manu to Parker against the Heat. :lol

[ChuckD]

I guess emphasizing defense is a lost cause... :depressed

Maybe with the run 'n gun game we'll win the ratings championship... SSOL here we come!

I doubt Pop will allow a full blown run'n'gun offense to develop. It will probably be like one player on the defensive perimeter designated on each play to leak out.

[alchemist]

I guess emphasizing defense is a lost cause... :depressed

Maybe with the run 'n gun game we'll win the ratings championship... SSOL here we come!
having Tony/Manu/Wings run up the court and have the Bigs stay back instead of going into half court sets everytime may be a part of the defensive scheme.

[DPG21920]

It makes sense. They picked up the pace a little last year (or so it seems) and they have the players to do it. You can only be an elite defensive team if you have the horses and the Spurs do not at this point.

On offense, they do have the ability to run it more, but I don't think it will be a philosophy. I think it is more of an opportunistic thing, just like their philosophy on offensive rebounding.

[Obstructed_View]

Yay, get that running offense going. It'll make up for some of the running plays the Spurs give up on those long rebounds because they shoot 30 three pointers a game.

Hey, we're now all fans of the D'Antoni Suns. Someone should remind Pop how easy those teams were to beat even when they had superior talent.

[DPG21920]

They are not going to implement an entirely new offense. They are just going to look to run in spots where it makes sense. Huge difference from the Suns.

[ElNono]

Boy, your just a ray of shineshine. You actually think a defensive coach like Pop would not emphasize defense?

If we go by the last couple of seasons and the defensive performance on display, you can safely call me a pessimist.


Maybe Pop has come to the conclusion that this current Spurs roster no longer has the defensive lock down ability of Spurs teams of the past. That doesn't me Pop doesn't emphasize defense, but by trying to rev up the running game, he is playing to a the strengths of this Spurs team, which is more atheltic and should be able to run more.

Is that a conclusion that leads to a championship? That since this roster can't really defend at a championship level we should instead try to out-score opponents on our way to the title? How that has worked the last couple of seasons?

[ElNono]

BTW, I'm all for easy points. But I didn't think scoring has been a problem in general for this team.

[jjktkk]

They are not going to implement an entirely new offense. They are just going to look to run in spots where it makes sense. Huge difference from the Suns.

+1! Some on here go to the extreme thinking the Spurs are going to be a run and gun team like the Suns, when they hear that the Spurs are going to run more this year. With better athletes on the floor, it makes sense to run more. Pop will still preach defense first, but thanks to better overall athletism, it just makes the Spurs more of a threat offensively if they do run more.

[ElNono]

With Manu being perhaps THE best passer on the team, I'm sure he's especially encouraged by that, as I'm sure Parker is too. Besides, Parker has been a one-man fast break for years, with little to one else running with him.

Exactly. I'm not sure what's there to emphasize. The Spurs have ran on the break for a long time now. It was actually more often when we didn't have to inbound the ball after a made basket...

[DPG21920]

Spurs don't really even have that good of athletes imo. Even though it is better than it has been, it is still behind most teams. I get trying to run a little more, but I agree with others who are concerned with Pop's change in attitude on the defensive end. He may say the right things, but the guys getting minutes are not performing on defense.

Pop is not preaching defense first any more imo. Or, he may be preaching it, but he is not holding guys accountable. I have no problem looking to run a little more where it makes sense, but I have a problem with the personnel being brought in to defend and the passes some guys get on that end now.

[jjktkk]

If we go by the last couple of seasons and the defensive performance on display, you can safely call me a pessimist.



Is that a conclusion that leads to a championship? That since this roster can't really defend at a championship level we should instead try to out-score opponents on our way to the title? How that has worked the last couple of seasons?

I will never question your pessimism. Way too obvious. Plus Chubby Checker would have been really proud at how you twist the meaning of words around. How do you come to the conclusion that by the Spurs wanting to run more this year, that that equates to trying to outscore the opposition? You get easy points if your team has the ability to score in transition, ala, the fast break. Not really too difficult to comprehend. I don't know how old you are, but the Lakers of the 80's were a great fastbreaking team that won multiple championships. Now obviously this current Spurs team does not possess the talent of those Laker teams, but by fastbreaking more, doesn't mean your abandoning defense. As far as the Spurs contending for a championship, they will do so by staying healthy and out excuting the opposition, as well as playing strong defense.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop still emphasizes defense a great deal.

In order to to get those easy points from pushing the ball (at the basket-layups/ dunks; or transition 3's), you need defensive stops ( long rebounds, deflections off steals, ect.) to ignite easy fast break opportunities. The personnel they have on the roster is the best defensive roster they've had in the past 3 years (including this upcoming season). So these opportunities could be there, especially with Splitter coming over this season helping the interior defense and also with Mason no longer whining for playing time.

You can't just run taking the ball out of the basket and expect to get great efficient point blank looks. You can't, usually the defense is already set after they convert a field goal or free throw.

What you can do is try to get into your offensive sets quicker by pushing the ball out from under the basket, which won't give the defense that much time to get their defense set. But that doesn't mean, Spurs are just going to go into " Dantoni" basketball and throw up ill-advised bad shots early in the shot clock. Pop will never tolerate that.

[jjktkk]

Pop still emphasizes defense a great deal.

In order to to get those easy points from pushing the ball (at the basket-layups/ dunks; or transition 3's), you need defensive stops ( long rebounds, deflections off steals, ect.) to ignite easy fast break opportunities. The personnel they have on the roster is the best defensive roster they've had in the past 3 years (including this upcoming season). So these opportunities could be there, especially with Splitter coming over this season helping the interior defense and also with Mason no longer whining for playing time.

You can't just run taking the ball out of the basket and expect to get great efficient point blank looks. You can't, usually the defense is already set after they convert a field goal or free throw.

What you can do is try to get into your offensive sets quicker by pushing the ball out from under the basket, which won't give the defense that much time to get their defense set. But that doesn't mean, Spurs are just going to go into " Dantoni" basketball and throw up ill-advised bad shots early in the shot clock. Pop will never tolerate that.

Ah! The voice of reason has saved this thread. +1!

[Obstructed_View]

They are not going to implement an entirely new offense. They are just going to look to run in spots where it makes sense. Huge difference from the Suns.

If you're allowing made baskets because you aren't playing defense anymore, then the only time you can run is off an inbound.

[Leonard Curse]

I guess emphasizing defense is a lost cause... :depressed

Maybe with the run 'n gun game we'll win the ratings championship... SSOL here we come!


did you just see the simmons training camp video? he is told to defend like no other and wreak havoc defensively also simmons is watching bruce tape and learning his foot positionsing!! i think pop realized they slacked so much on defense and is very adamant about his defense!!!

look you dont need all defensive players to play defense all you need is drive in your mind. just look at the suns for instance they were really defensive last year which was bazaar but all it took was effort and we have more capable defenders than most teams.

what we need to do is make sure our SF is a defensive freak or a real pest after that we need to send our enemy to the twin towers down low like we used to do you have no idea what a defensive 7fter will do for this team not to mention with tim duncan

[jjktkk]

did you just see the simmons training camp video? he is told to defend like no other and wreak havoc defensively also simmons is watching bruce tape and learning his foot positionsing!! i think pop realized they slacked so much on defense and is very adamant about his defense!!!

look you dont need all defensive players to play defense all you need is drive in your mind. just look at the suns for instance they were really defensive last year which was bazaar but all it took was effort and we have more capable defenders than most teams.

what we need to do is make sure our SF is a defensive freak or a real pest after that we need to send our enemy to the twin towers down low like we used to do you have no idea what a defensive 7fter will do for this team not to mention with tim duncan

Thats good in theory, unfortunately, there is no sf prospect on our roster who fits your description as a "defensive freak".

[ElNono]

I will never question your pessimism. Way too obvious. Plus Chubby Checker would have been really proud at how you twist the meaning of words around. How do you come to the conclusion that by the Spurs wanting to run more this year, that that equates to trying to outscore the opposition? You get easy points if your team has the ability to score in transition, ala, the fast break. Not really too difficult to comprehend.

It's not really that complicated. If you're not going/able to play at the level of defense that enables you to win games, you will have to score more to make up for the difference. Basketball isn't that complicated: You need to score more than your opponent. You either get there by stopping your opponent from scoring, or you get there by foiling the attempts of your opponent to stop you from scoring.


I don't know how old you are, but the Lakers of the 80's were a great fastbreaking team that won multiple championships. Now obviously this current Spurs team does not possess the talent of those Laker teams, but by fastbreaking more, doesn't mean your abandoning defense. As far as the Spurs contending for a championship, they will do so by staying healthy and out excuting the opposition, as well as playing strong defense.

This is not the 80's and we don't have a Magic Johnson. I look back at the last 10 years and I can't think of a single team that won it with offense (the Heat in '06 is probably the closest thing). As much as the NBA has tried to change the rules to increase scoring and what not, the champs always play some brand of defense that can get them stops when they need them. Something the Spurs used to do, but I don't think it's realistic with this roster. We simply have a huge question mark in the middle with Tiago, and we still looking for a wing that can defend, because RJ is not it.
You look at this team for the past two seasons, and whenever a player on the other team catches fire we have absolutely zero to throw at him.
So, I'm skeptic. I want to see what have we really done to address that before jumping up and down because we're going to 'emphasize the fast break'.

[ElNono]

Pop still emphasizes defense a great deal.

In order to to get those easy points from pushing the ball (at the basket-layups/ dunks; or transition 3's), you need defensive stops ( long rebounds, deflections off steals, ect.) to ignite easy fast break opportunities. The personnel they have on the roster is the best defensive roster they've had in the past 3 years (including this upcoming season). So these opportunities could be there, especially with Splitter coming over this season helping the interior defense and also with Mason no longer whining for playing time.

Based on what quantitative measure? Gut feelings per minute?
I see the same roster as last season for the minute takers for the most part. The difference I see are on the players with lesser minutes: Tiago for Mahinmi, Neal for Mason, Simmons/Gee for Centerpiece and Anderson for Hairston. The bulk of the minutes are still gonna go to the big 3 and RJ. Blair might take more minutes from Bonner, seeing how he's been playing. Tiago is a big ????, and one would assume he will take some time from Dice, at least during the regular season.

I just don't see where this big defensive improvement is going to come from. I'm certainly anxious to be greatly surprised.


You can't just run taking the ball out of the basket and expect to get great efficient point blank looks. You can't, usually the defense is already set after they convert a field goal or free throw.

What you can do is try to get into your offensive sets quicker by pushing the ball out from under the basket, which won't give the defense that much time to get their defense set. But that doesn't mean, Spurs are just going to go into " Dantoni" basketball and throw up ill-advised bad shots early in the shot clock. Pop will never tolerate that.

I don't expect them to go into D'Antoni mode either, I'm not that crazy.
My comment about SSOL and winning the 'ratings championship' was pretty much tongue in cheek, and I thought it was pretty obvious.
That said, I don't think we ever 'not emphasized' fast-break and running. It's just a lot easier to run when you can get stops. Something we've not done well enough the last few seasons.

[ElNono]

did you just see the simmons training camp video? he is told to defend like no other and wreak havoc defensively also simmons is watching bruce tape and learning his foot positionsing!! i think pop realized they slacked so much on defense and is very adamant about his defense!!!

look you dont need all defensive players to play defense all you need is drive in your mind. just look at the suns for instance they were really defensive last year which was bazaar but all it took was effort and we have more capable defenders than most teams.

You know what? I think Bobby is trying his best to win himself a place in this roster and league. I think he'll do anything and everything to do it. And I wish him the best of luck and hope he can get there.
That said, sometimes it's not just mental. Bowen was not just mentally good. He was a physical phenom. The question with Bobby is wether he still has it physically. He looks in top shape, but people were going around him like he was not there in the Rockets game. It's just one game, and obviously not a good enough sample size. So we'll see what he has in the next few games.

[benefactor]

I don't have much hope for Spurs defense. I think it died with Bowen's exit.

[MaNu4Tres]

Based on what quantitative measure? Gut feelings per minute?

I see the same roster as last season for the minute takers for the most part. The difference I see are on the players with lesser minutes: Tiago for Mahinmi, Neal for Mason, Simmons/Gee for Centerpiece and Anderson for Hairston. The bulk of the minutes are still gonna go to the big 3 and RJ. Blair might take more minutes from Bonner, seeing how he's been playing. Tiago is a big ????, and one would assume he will take some time from Dice, at least during the regular season.

I just don't see where this big defensive improvement is going to come from. I'm certainly anxious to be greatly surprised.



You don't think having Splitter playing 20+ minutes in the playoffs instead of Bonner is a defensive improvement?

You don't think Anderson is an improvement defensively over Mason?

You don't think another year and off-season will help Blair, Hill and RJ's defensive awareness in Pop's system ?

[MaNu4Tres]

Before you try to twist and turn my last point like ---*OMG YOU THINK RJ CAN IMPROVE INTO A BOWEN OMG*-- No I meant with a year under his belt (like Blair) , his rotations have the chance to be crisper and it's certainly reasonable for a player in their 2nd year to be one step (mentally) ahead in a specific and complicated system like Pop's. Anyway, that is not my main point.

My main point is Splitter and Anderson are the defensive improvements in the 8-10 man rotation (Yes I believe Anderson will claim that 5th wing spot behind Tony, Hill, Manu and RJ) .

[benefactor]

Blair and Hill will be better, but will still be exploited at times. Hill still to show he won't get faceraped by quicker points. Pop also has to get away from the idea that he can guard anyone...even if they are 6 inches taller than him. Blair will be better but is still going to struggle against bigger players and quicker forwards. He has shown a few flashes of adjustment to this(swiping at balls without fouling to cause turnovers) but all in all he will still likely struggle for the other reasons I mentioned.

As for the others things are completely unknown. Anderson is a rookie and will likely have problems adjusting to the speed of the NBA game and will be subject to NBA calls. TBQH, I don't think he will see the floor enough to make a true defensive impact. I won't even say what I think about RJ because you and I are obviously at an impasse on that subject. Splitter...who knows. In theory he should make a difference but there will still be plenty of adjustment time for him, even though he is smart and has lots of overseas experience.

Many of us underestimate the impact Bowen had on the perimeter. Since he has left the team defense has gone from inconsistent to barely existent. Spurs defense has gone from being in intensive care to full blown code blue...and I don't know that it can be resuscitated.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't have much hope for Spurs defense. I think it died with Bowen's exit.

I agree. Furthermore, I think it's becoming more and more plain that Bowen and Duncan were far more responsible for Spurs defense than Popovich ever was.

[ElNono]

You don't think having Splitter playing 20+ minutes in the playoffs instead of Bonner is a defensive improvement?

I don't know. I don't even know if Tiago will play 20+ minutes in the playoffs or play at all. Will he hit the rookie wall? Will he get the Hill/Finley treatment? Will we be talking about how his second season will be better than the first?
I've watched Tiago enough overseas and I know it's going to take time to adjust to the super athletic league that's the NBA. I expect his passing to be top notch, but I'm not sure his defense will translate as readily. I certainly hope it does, but it's far from a sure thing. I would say that it's even arguable Bonner will be the minutes loser to him, seeing Pop's love for Matt.


You don't think Anderson is an improvement defensively over Mason?

I don't know, do you? He looked lost against Houston and great against the Heat scrubs last night. Will he even get the minutes to show what he can do? I have similar questions as the ones with Tiago: Rookie wall? Will he be the minute loser when playoffs come around, as it seems to be the case for most rookies?


You don't think another year and off-season will help Blair, Hill and RJ's defensive awareness in Pop's system ?

Well, the question is if you see their defensive problems as merely not knowing the system or there are other, deeper issues.

At this point, I think Hill knows what to do. I thought his biggest problem defensively last season was footwork. Being able to read and stay in front of his man. I mean, Nash schooled him bad on that. Here's hoping he worked on that aspect during the summer.

As far as Blair goes, I never had much problem with his defense. I mean, early in the season his rotations were awful, but eventually he got a grip on it. The fact that he doesn't really have the size to guard top big man in the post is not going to change if he knows the system more or not. But he works his ass off rebounding the ball, and that right there is huge and to me, makes up for other shortcomings. I expect improvement mostly on offense from Blair. His drop shot, and mid-range he said he worked on. Maybe better awareness of what he should and should not go for (he had a lot of ticky tacky fouls on offense last season). I also hope his minutes don't go down once the playoffs come around.

Lastly, RJ... a topic we've discussed extensively. I just don't think he has the tools to guard the quick athletic wings out there in the league anymore. His lateral movement is gone. To top it off, he's mostly the antithesis of Blair: Where the beast mitigates some of his shortcomings busting his ass off, RJ looks extremely casual a lot of time, especially on defense. Maybe the new RJ changed that. I'll let you know after 10 or so games into the season. But that's the lingering impression I got from him last season, and I didn't think the system have a lot to do specifically with that stuff.

(Sorry for the long winded response. But next game is Tuesday, so what the hell).

[ElNono]

Before you try to twist and turn my last point like ---*OMG YOU THINK RJ CAN IMPROVE INTO A BOWEN OMG*-- No I meant with a year under his belt (like Blair) , his rotations have the chance to be crisper and it's certainly reasonable for a player in their 2nd year to be one step (mentally) ahead in a specific and complicated system like Pop's. Anyway, that is not my main point.

My main point is Splitter and Anderson are the defensive improvements in the 8-10 man rotation (Yes I believe Anderson will claim that 5th wing spot behind Tony, Hill, Manu and RJ) .

I hope I didn't twist anything in my response... feel free to point out if I did. :toast

[benefactor]

I agree. Furthermore, I think it's becoming more and more plain that Bowen and Duncan were far more responsible for Spurs defense than Popovich ever was.
I've said this a couple of times too. Team defense is much, much easier when a team is able to neutralize the teams perimeter threat and protect the paint simultaneously.

[MaNu4Tres]

My point was this roster, that is currently construction, is a better roster (defensively) they've had since their last championship season. (Having Splitter on the roster and wings (James Anderson) with more defensive upside than Mason/Bogans are the main reasons.)

That is all.

[ElNono]

And my point is that I would agree if that sentiment would be quantifiable in any meaningful way. We're entering in the realm of projecting potential vs looking at what we have. I'm not going to stop you from being an optimist, but I'll simply go a different route and remain skeptic until we see what the goods truly are.

[Obstructed_View]

I've said this a couple of times too. Team defense is much, much easier when a team is able to neutralize the teams perimeter threat and protect the paint simultaneously.

There's a rather convincing case to be made that Rasho Nesterovic deserves a large portion of credit as well, since the Spurs' interior defense has become much less effective without a legitimate center. Even a suckass like Francisco Elson was an improvement over much of what has followed in the middle.

[Obstructed_View]

My point was this roster, that is currently construction, is a better roster (defensively) they've had since their last championship season. (Having Splitter on the roster and wings (James Anderson) with more defensive upside than Mason/Bogans are the main reasons.)

That is all.

Time will tell. I'm currently thinking exactly the opposite, because I don't know if Splitter's going to be utilized properly and the jury is still WAY out on all the new wings. We may find ourselves wishing for Bogans and Mason from a defensive standpoint. And saying that it could be better than the worst defensive teams, by far, of the Duncan era, isn't setting the bar particularly high. :)

I'm still hoping for a Duncan/Splitter/Blair front line.

[MaNu4Tres]

And my point is that I would agree if that sentiment would be quantifiable in any meaningful way. We're entering in the realm of projecting potential vs looking at what we have. I'm not going to stop you from being an optimist, but I'll simply go a different route and remain skeptic until we see what the goods truly are.


It is quantifiable. You don't need a fancy Hollinger statistic to figure that out. You're just being technical because your trying to buy some time until Tuesday.

The same way how we judge Jefferson's effectiveness on the defensive end (from the eyes to the brain), is the same way how we can judge how Splitter can help this team on the defensive end ( Plenty of us have watched plenty of his games and know his measures (legit 7 footer) and know the talent he obsesses (mobile, smart, good interior defender, ect) .

- Another way we can project the new roster from the defensive standpoint is how pathetic Mason and Bogans were for the majority of the season last year.

- Another way we can project the new roster from the defensive standpoint is how helpless Bonner can be defensively in the interior when he's not getting help from a needed double team (which then creates more open looks for the opposition, oppose to having a player like Splitter where a double team is not needed.) Or whenever Tim's man is being the screen setter and Tim is drawn out to the perimeter defensively, Bonner would then be used as the defensive player responsible for rotating over to try to negate any penetration (he simply can't do this to any effective degree). It's the same when he is teamed up with McDyess or Blair and they are being drawn out in pick and rolls. ( These are all realms and where Splitter will help the defense.)

That is the quantifiable measure I'm using. Anyone who has watched games can understand those measures for the most part I believe. You don't need Hollinger to develop a quantifiable measure for you to figure that out.

[SenorSpur]

Spurs don't really even have that good of athletes imo. Even though it is better than it has been, it is still behind most teams. I get trying to run a little more, but I agree with others who are concerned with Pop's change in attitude on the defensive end. He may say the right things, but the guys getting minutes are not performing on defense.

Pop is not preaching defense first any more imo. Or, he may be preaching it, but he is not holding guys accountable. I have no problem looking to run a little more where it makes sense, but I have a problem with the personnel being brought in to defend and the passes some guys get on that end now.

As others have said, the Spurs are not suddenly going to morph into the Suns. Rather they will look for opportunities for easy baskets.

That said, I find it hilarious that Pop, and the entire team, still break each huddle with a chant of "1-2-3 DEFENSE!" With the manner in which the team defense has declined, they should've retired that chant the day that Bruce left the building. Or perhaps even when D-Rob hung it up.

[ElNono]

It is quantifiable. You don't need a fancy Hollinger statistic to figure that out. You're just being technical because your trying to buy some time until Tuesday.

How is it quantifiable? Tiago Splitter has not played 1 minute of NBA action.
James Anderson has played a grand total of 30 mins of preseason ball against debatable NBA players.


The same way how we judge Jefferson's effectiveness on the defensive end, is the same way how we can judge how Splitter can help this team on the defensive end ( Plenty of us have watched plenty of his games and know his measures (legit 7 footer) and know the talent he obsesses (mobile, smart, good interior defender, ect) . (This is a realm.)

But it isn't the same way. With RJ we have a body of work of a full season with the Spurs and many other seasons with other NBA teams. The word with RJ is that he's been made himself anew, so, I'm going to wait until a few games into the season to see if this new RJ is what we've been told he is, or if he's the relatively the same RJ we had last season. In the case of Tiago, there's barely a frame of reference. Sure, he was great in Europe, he's a legit 7 footer, and he's smart and mobile. That doesn't mean he's going to come in here and everything is going to translate in his first season.
I'm sure everybody has high hopes (myself included) about him, because he seems to have the tools, but I don't realistically think it's a sure thing right now that he's going to help us immediately. On the same vein, I'm not going to knock on him if he doesn't get everything figured out in his first season. Realistically speaking, few players do.


-Another realm is how pathetic Mason and Bogans were for the majority of the season last year. ( This is a realm.)

What makes you think their replacements will be any better, other than sheer optimism? As O_V said, the wing situation is an extremely huge question mark right now. Even more so than the interior D, IMO.


- Another realm is how helpless Bonner can be defensively in the interior when he's not getting help from a needed double team ( which then creates more open looks for the opposition, oppose to having a player like Splitter where a double team is not needed.) Or whenever Tim's man is being the screen setter and Tim is drawn out to the perimeter defensively, Bonner would then be used as the defensive player responsible for rotating over to try to negate any penetration ( He simply can't do this effectively.) It's the same when he is teamed up with McDyess or Blair and they are being drawn out in pick and rolls. ( These are all realms and where Splitter will help the defense.)

Provided he knows how is he supposed to rotate, and his shot blocking is as effective against supremely athletic players. He also will need not to reach, which is pretty common in Europe but a big no, no in the NBA. Will he get the benefit of the doubt from the refs when the attacking guy leans on him? Will he learn to back off and just modify the shot? They're all valid concerns.
The answer for all of them right now is ?????????. When you say he's going to be better than Bonner (can't really have a lower bar), well, I suspect you might be right. However, I'm not sold Bonner will lose minutes to him. After all, you're implying that Blair did a better job than Bonner but the beast ended up being the minute loser in the playoffs.


That is the quantifiable measure I'm using. Anyone who has watched games can understand those measures for the most part I believe. You don't need Hollinger to develop a quantifiable measure for you to figure that out.

You're not using quantifiable measures. You're actually using the word 'realm' which per-se means a bound, region or domain where anything can happen (or can be measured). I understand that your optimism is derived from the awfully bad pieces we had in the past few seasons (IE: *anybody* will be better defensively than Mason/Bogans/Bonner), but ultimately I have more questions than just that.
We disagree about the role Bonner is going to have. You think he won't play much, and I disagree.
We know how much Bogans and Mason sucked, but we don't really have any idea how much better/different Anderson is going to be, especially as a rookie, do we?
And Tiago seems to have the tools, but other than that, do we really know anything else? I'll reserve judgement until later on in this one too. After all, I thought Blair should have received the minutes Bonner got in the playoffs last season, but that was not the case at all. See, that's an example of something that has been quantified. Rookies seem to lose minutes to vets in this team when the playoffs roll around. Will Tiago be the exception?

[ElNono]

That said, I find it hilarious that Pop, and the entire team, still break each huddle with a chant of "1-2-3 DEFENSE!" With the manner in which the team defense has declined, they should've retired that chant the day that Bruce left the building. Or perhaps even when D-Rob hung it up.

:lol I noticed that too and :rolleyes

[SenorSpur]

Thats good in theory, unfortunately, there is no sf prospect on our roster who fits your description as a "defensive freak".

All the more reason why I'm firmly onboard for the Wilson Chandler trade - which would finally give the Spurs some semblance of a defensive freak.

[DPG21920]

So we want to take a big time scorer in college with below average athleticism and make him a defender?

[ElNono]

So we want to take a big time scorer in college with below average athleticism and make him a defender?

Well, we took a SG in college and tried to make him a PG. So YMMV.

[MaNu4Tres]

So we want to take a big time scorer in college and make him a defender?

Yup

[DPG21920]

That is silly. And if you are basing defensive improvements on a guy with questionable NBA level athleticism that never really had to defend, we are in some trouble.

[MaNu4Tres]

That is silly. And if you are basing defensive improvements on a guy with questionable NBA level athleticism that never really had to defend, we are in some trouble.

Anderson has more athleticism than Mason and Bogans. You're so silly.

[DPG21920]

:lol Wow, that is an amazing feat. Anderson has more athleticism than Bogans and Mason. Amazing.

Whether he has more athleticism than those two or not is a moot point. He still has borderline NBA level athleticism and it does not seem wise to make a guy who is the big 12 player of the year and a big scorer a defensive guy. :lol I wish other teams that drafted the Big 12 player of the year turned them into defensive guys.

Most everyone in the NBA has better athleticism than Bogans/Mason, that does not help your case.

[DPG21920]

I just don't see Anderson being a better defender than Bogans. I especially don't want them to try and make him into something he is not, when he more than anyone, has offensive upside.

I want him to try on defense obviously, but I don't want him getting the Beno treatment if he is not some stud defender when he does not seem to have the tools to do so.

[ElNono]

To his credit, he will need to be as good defensively as Hill (unlikely) or RJ (not that difficult, based on last season) to earn substantial minutes when it matters.

The thing is, I don't think Pop will cut RJ's minutes unless the other player is Bowen-like. Which is really unreasonable to expect from a rook.

[DPG21920]

To his credit, he will need to be as good defensively as Hill (unlikely) or RJ (not that difficult, based on last season) to earn substantial minutes when it matters.

The thing is, I don't think Pop will cut RJ's minutes unless the other player is Bowen-like. Which is really unreasonable to expect from a rook.

That is what I am saying. It just seems silly to place those expectations on a rookie, who is a big time scorer and never really had to defend or play a role like a Bowen or Bogans.

He is already at a disadvantage with his athletic tools and he is going to have to struggle to figure out the thing he is good at (scoring) at the NBA level because of it.

[DPG21920]

Gee at least seems to have the tools to do the defending, but I can't get a read on him because of the lack of playing time. Who knows.

[ElNono]

That is what I am saying. It just seems silly to place those expectations on a rookie, who is a big time scorer and never really had to defend or play a role like a Bowen or Bogans.

He is already at a disadvantage with his athletic tools and he is going to have to struggle to figure out the thing he is good at (scoring) at the NBA level because of it.

I'll throw this one out there too:
Hill worked extremely hard changing his game over the summer between when he was drafted until the season started.
Anderson, on the other hand, has been nursing an injury all summer long.

He must truly be a one of a kind to be able to learn to turn his game around during the course of a 82 game season while guarding guys like Lebron, Odom or Durant. All the while convincing Pop that he can scrape minutes from a guy who the Spurs just invested $40m for the next four seasons.
This, I gotta see.

[objective]

you can't run if you can't rebound, where once again Bonner becomes an issue.

I really hope the people who think Bonner won't be playing are right, but there are no signs to validate that. They didn't just sign him to another long term deal to sit in street clothes and talk Chip's ear off about how awesome Okkervil River's last tour was.

He played over Blair. And he still 'stretches the floor'. How is he going to lose minutes?

How will Anderson get on the floor? Pop kept George Hill on lockdown his rookie year until the Dallas series was over. Pop kept Blair on the bench behind Bonner. Pop kept Stephen Jackson in streetclothes so guys like Terry Porter could trip up and down the court. Pop kept Bogans as his declared centerpiece even though Hairston by preseason viewers performed better.

And now Simmons is here to potentially keep Anderson on the bench too.

[timtonymanu]

If only Hairston was still around.

[ElNono]

Hairston thread!

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm not saying Anderson has Bowen-like potential.

Spurs expect defense out of everyone, not just the 5th wing. That's who Pop is.

I just believe (defensively) Anderson is a better piece to have to fill the void left by the Mason/Bogans role ( the 12-20 minutes in the 5th wing spot).

Laugh away if you think that is so unreasonable.

[ElNono]

The thing is, the Spurs eventually didn't fill in that spot with Mason or Bogans. Mason played a grand total of 16 minutes for the entire Suns series. Bogans 14 mins.

We went with a 3 guard setup of Tony/Manu/Hill and I think barring any major developments we'll see the same thing this season.

(I should add, during the playoffs)

[MaNu4Tres]

We went with a 3 guard setup of Tony/Manu/Hill and I think barring any major developments we'll see the same thing this season.

(I should add, during the playoffs)

Spurs won't last if that's the case. That is why Pop and R.C emphasized doing what it took to have a stronger bench than last year. Manu, Tim, Tony can't play 40 minutes a night in the playoffs and be productively efficient in the 4th quarters (where execution is most vital). Spurs need their top guns to be "full of the juice" ( if you will) once the last 8 minutes of the 4th quarter rolls around so they can execute at the highest efficient rate possible.

Spurs only went with the 3 guard lineup because of how bad Mason and Bogans continued to be. That wasn't planned, it was the hand the Spurs were forced to play unfortunately.

[DPG21920]

I just don't see Anderson being so much better than Bogans that the roster is upgraded defensively. I definitely buy the Tiago argument, but it is the perimeter defense that worries me.

[MaNu4Tres]

I really hope the people who think Bonner won't be playing are right, but there are no signs to validate that. They didn't just sign him to another long term deal to sit in street clothes and talk Chip's ear off about how awesome Okkervil River's last tour was.

He played over Blair. And he still 'stretches the floor'. How is he going to lose minutes?



Here's my opinion on the Bonner situation; may be right; may be wrong-- Time will tell..



About the Big Rotation
*I don't believe Pop will run a 5-big rotation every game. That will only make it longer for Tiago and the other bigs to start gaining the proper chemistry the team needs in order to reach their full potential (5 man "musical chairs" rotation will only make it longer for the team to start gelling; and how can the bigs (excluding TD) find a confident rhythm if they would only play 10-18 minutes each--if the proposed 5 big rotation per game plays out).

The value of adding an improved DeJuan Blair and a legit 7 footer in Tiago Splitter allows Pop to rest Duncan and McDyess more games without having to worry about a significant drop in production.

* The games McDyess rests or enjoys a Horry-like vacation (1st half of the season) Spurs can have Duncan/Blair-- Tiago/Bonner rotation.

*The games Duncan rests Spurs can have Splitter/Blair-- McDyess/ Bonner rotation.

*The games Spurs have their guns loaded, Spurs can have the Duncan/Blair-- Tiago/ (McDyess or Bonner rotation; Whoever is playing well that part of the season)..


Also..


Spurs signed Bonner so they could have a quality 5th big option this year. Duncan and Dyess will have their overall minutes limited by sitting out some games if all goes as planned.

The main reason Spurs gave Bonner the contract they did is because after this season, Dyess will be gone and the Spurs would then have only 3 quality bigs on the entire roster with a late 1st-2nd round pick (uncertainties) and a limited exception(depending on if Spurs want to go into the *new* luxury tax or not) to add a quality 4th and 5th big on the roster. And as long as Duncan is still playing from here on out, the Spurs will need 4-5 quality bigs to give Duncan the rest he needs in order for the Spurs to be able to compete with the elite of the league.

Basically in a nut shell, resigning Bonner guaranteed the Spurs depth (4-deep at least) at the front-court position til Tim's wheels essentially fall off and at the same time-- it gives the Spurs the proper roster flexibility to limit Duncan and Dyess' minutes by letting them sit out some games this season.

[Leonard Curse]

That is what I am saying. It just seems silly to place those expectations on a rookie, who is a big time scorer and never really had to defend or play a role like a Bowen or Bogans.

He is already at a disadvantage with his athletic tools and he is going to have to struggle to figure out the thing he is good at (scoring) at the NBA level because of it.


ok its really easy to point out the negative stuff, and if i remember correctly werent you guys the ones saying dejuan didnt have a chance starting or becoming a significant player in the nba due to the harsh REALIty of him being 6'7'' @ C .

there was just no way, and now just one year later it seems he could be starting along side tim duncan, im just saying anythings possible these "regular nba players " such as simmons are anything but regular and 90 percent of them are capable of doing much more. look at manu ginobili if he didnt have the drive he does he would suck and you and i would be saying well its because hes not a top notch athlete shoot even larry bird is a hell of an example.

so please stop acting like its impossible for a guy to step up his game at anypoint in the nba, esp. when the person were comparing him to (bowen) did that very same thing for the spurs. any nba player is capable of stepping up their game well outside of matt bonner that is hahah jk

[DPG21920]

ok its really easy to point out the negative stuff, and if i remember correctly werent you guys the ones saying dejuan didnt have a chance starting or becoming a significant player in the nba due to the harsh REALIty of him being 6'7'' @ C .

there was just no way, and now just one year later it seems he could be starting along side tim duncan, im just saying anythings possible these "regular nba players " such as simmons are anything but regular and 90 percent of them are capable of doing much more. look at manu ginobili if he didnt have the drive he does he would suck and you and i would be saying well its because hes not a top notch athlete shoot even larry bird is a hell of an example.

so please stop acting like its impossible for a guy to step up his game at anypoint in the nba, esp. when the person were comparing him to (bowen) did that very same thing for the spurs. any nba player is capable of stepping up their game well outside of matt bonner that is hahah jk

Wrong guy, guy.

[ElNono]

Spurs won't last if that's the case. That is why Pop and R.C emphasized doing what it took to have a stronger bench than last year. Manu, Tim, Tony can't play 40 minutes a night in the playoffs and be productively efficient in the 4th quarters (where execution is most vital). Spurs need their top guns to be "full of the juice" ( if you will) once the last 8 minutes of the 4th quarter rolls around so they can execute at the highest efficient rate possible.

Spurs only went with the 3 guard lineup because of how bad Mason and Bogans continued to be. That wasn't planned, it was the hand the Spurs were forced to play unfortunately.

I actually agree. I don't think it's reasonable that we need to move Hill to the wing. It's painfully obvious too that Hill didn't quite fill the bill as a wing either.

I sincerely just don't see what the Spurs have done to address this (although there's still time, since the roster has not been set yet).

Ultimately though, how much better Anderson/Gee/Simmons are compared to Bogans/Mason is kind of irrelevant. The bar is really Hill playing as a wing. If they can't do better than him in that role, then they're not going to get the minutes.

[MaNu4Tres]

I actually agree. I don't think it's reasonable that we need to move Hill to the wing. It's painfully obvious too that Hill didn't quite fill the bill as a wing either.

I sincerely just don't see what the Spurs have done to address this (although there's still time, since the roster has not been set yet).

Ultimately though, how much better Anderson/Gee/Simmons are compared to Bogans/Mason is kind of irrelevant. The bar is really Hill playing as a wing. If they can't do better than him in that role, then they're not going to get the minutes.

The only way the "5th" wing doesn't get minutes is if Manu, Tony and Hill all play well over 35-38 minutes.

I just don't believe that is a formula to win games every other night from late April through June ( it was proved last year when Manu and Tony were grabbing their knees instead of executing on the offensive end late in the 4th quarters vs. the Suns; they had no depth and prepared the wrong players all year; Bogans/Mason ) . They will need a 5th wing to separate themselves ( I believe it will be Anderson;IMO) and that player should get the minutes, even if Hill plays 35 minutes (13-18 at PG/17-22 at SG) a night when it mattters-- there will be minutes available at the 2/3 spot.

[ElNono]

The only way the "5th" wing doesn't get minutes is if Manu, Tony and Hill all play well over 35-38 minutes.

I just don't believe that is a formula to win games every other night from late April through June ( it was proved last year when Manu and Tony were grabbing their knees instead of executing on the offensive end late in the 4th quarters vs. the Suns; they had no depth and prepared the wrong players all year; Bogans/Mason ) . They will need a 5th wing to separate themselves ( I believe it will be Anderson) and that player should get the minutes, even if Hill plays 35 minutes a night when it mattters-- there will be minutes available at the 2/3 spot.

There's the distinct possibility that we're not going to find that coveted 5th wing, and one of Neal/Anderson will rotate at the 2 (while Hill mans the wing and Manu rests), which is more of their natural position and their lack of height/athleticism wouldn't be as much of a liability (kind of what we did with Mason for stretches).

I still think that puts us at a disadvantage in the wing.

[ElNono]

ok its really easy to point out the negative stuff, and if i remember correctly werent you guys the ones saying dejuan didnt have a chance starting or becoming a significant player in the nba due to the harsh REALIty of him being 6'7'' @ C .

there was just no way, and now just one year later it seems he could be starting along side tim duncan, im just saying anythings possible these "regular nba players " such as simmons are anything but regular and 90 percent of them are capable of doing much more. look at manu ginobili if he didnt have the drive he does he would suck and you and i would be saying well its because hes not a top notch athlete shoot even larry bird is a hell of an example.

so please stop acting like its impossible for a guy to step up his game at anypoint in the nba, esp. when the person were comparing him to (bowen) did that very same thing for the spurs. any nba player is capable of stepping up their game well outside of matt bonner that is hahah jk

I think stepping up their game and basically changing their entire game over the course of a season are two very different things. Especially for a rookie.

FWIW, I'm a huge Blair fan. I admit, even irrationally so at times.
I really wanted him to get Bonner's minutes last playoff, especially after the brick-fest we witnessed in the first round.

[MaNu4Tres]

There's the distinct possibility that we're not going to find that coveted 5th wing, and one of Neal/Anderson will rotate at the 2 (while Hill mans the wing and Manu rests), which is more of their natural position and their lack of height/athleticism wouldn't be as much of a liability (kind of what we did with Mason for stretches).

I still think that puts us at a disadvantage in the wing.

I know there's a possibility for the Spurs to not find the coveted 5th wing. But I believe Anderson is the most promising candidate from what I've seen from him in college and from the other known alternatives.

Anderson is taller than Neal and has the bulk and length to match-up better vs. 3's than Bogans/Mason ever did. IMO

And I think Neal is irrelevant.

I don't see Neal as a legit NBA shooting guard. He looks a lot smaller than he's listed in the program ( that 6'4 is a generous 6'2" imo). I also don't think he has the skills to be a rotational player for a team vying for a championship. At best I see him as a mop-up duty/ end of a bench player.

[Leonard Curse]

i think pop has become a bit* complacent/undecisive on his coaching & rotations and he even knows he has this problem. the " were going to cut the roster to 13" statement tells me he acknowledged his flaws last season. he needs to let people play their natural positions (although i do believe some can adapt) its really a pain in the ass for the players/coach/and us the fans.

i mean if you look at anyone whos been a successful spur they have all played their natural positions and if its a player you cant pass up in the draft such as anderson/hill/blair re-evaluate & TRADE accordingly. these are all things pop hopefully will do this season.

[ElNono]

I know there's a possibility for the Spurs to not find the coveted 5th wing. But I believe Anderson is the most promising candidate from what I've seen from him in college and from the other known alternatives.

Anderson is taller than Neal and has the bulk and length to match-up better vs. 3's than Bogans/Mason ever did. IMO

I was somewhat disappointed from what I've seen against Houston, but then again I know it's early, they've been training hard, and the guy didn't do much over the summer. So I wanna see a larger sample size.


And I think Neal is irrelevant.

I don't see Neal as a legit NBA shooting guard. He looks a lot smaller than he's listed in the program ( that 6'4 is a generous 6'2" imo). I also don't think he has the skills to be a rotational player for a team vying for a championship. At best I see him as a mop-up duty/ end of a bench player.

He could be bought out and released tomorrow, for all we know. I just know we're going to need somebody behind Manu/Hill/Tony. I don't know if that's Neal, CJ or who. Neil obviously has the advantage that he's got a guaranteed contract already.

[ElNono]

BTW, something else that I touched upon about the wing defense is that if we're to improve, RJ will probably have to lose some minutes there. You can't leak like a sieve for 35 mins then pretend to have a guy come in and fix it up in 13 mins. There's a reason Bowen averaged 30 mpg during his peak years (obviously, I don't expect to find a Bowen, but it will have to be something more balanced, like RJ getting 28 mins and the good defensive backup 20 mins).

Question is, do you see Pop doing it? Right now I don't see it, unless the other guy is Bowen-like (unrealistic, imo)

[Leonard Curse]

sorry elNono and DPG i thought it might have been one of you guys but im sure you remeber the feeling in ST about blair.

there were alot of believers & alot of people saying he doesnt have much upside, and will never be able to guard the bigs of NBA.

im just so happy with our young spurs players we can already see the manner in which they carry themselves. from D.rob to george hill these new chickens have classic spurs character

[Leonard Curse]

BTW, something else that I touched upon about the wing defense is that if we're to improve, RJ will probably have to lose some minutes there. You can't leak like a sieve for 35 mins then pretend to have a guy come in and fix it up in 13 mins. There's a reason Bowen averaged 30 mpg during his peak years (obviously, I don't expect to find a Bowen, but it will have to be something more balanced, like RJ getting 28 mins and the good defensive backup 20 mins).

Question is, do you see Pop doing it? Right now I don't see it, unless the other guy is Bowen-like (unrealistic, imo)


thats why he has to commit a player to a position and that be the end of it in a sense hes experimenting way to much. lets hope he does but if rj steps up his D for sure hell keep him out there. Heres my view if anyone and i mean anyone becomes a lock down defender they need to be starting.

that means hill/simmons/temple, if simmons does do work like he said he was and becomes a pest i would love to have a guy whos 6'8'' of a pest out there we need our starters to have a defensive presence. and iv'e alwasy thought rj would do great off the bench anyway

[mingus]

Some of you guys are underestimating the defensive potential of this team.

i can't remember how many times last year opposing teams' guards and wings penetrated our perimiter defense and had to go up against Bonner at the basket for an easy two points, or against Blair (less often). this happened at least 8 times per game. the Splitter/Duncan combo will limit a lot of those opportunities for opposing teams. that's 16 less points for the other team (at least as far as scores in that manner are concerned). remember, in '99 the Spurs did not have anybody that was great defensively on the perimiter (though rules of late have softened perimiter defense quite a bit), but they had the luxury of having 2 7-footers in the paint. sure, one of them happened to be David Robinson, i'm in no way comparing Splitter to him, but it's a luxury that the Spurs will finally have again. i think that's being downplayed. if Hill, TP, RJ, and JA can prove to be solid defenders, we'll be good.

[ElNono]

Question: wasn't Elson 7ft?

(EDIT: Answering my own question, yes, he's listed as 7ft in NBA.com)

[ElNono]

BTW, I'm not comparing Elson with Tiago...

I'm just trying to remember if that was the last time we had two 7-footers in the team

[Cessation]

I think last year was a bit of an anomaly. Seven new players, and parker often injured, made for an
up and down season, and still we were able to knock of 2 seeded mavs as a 7 seed, which has
never been done.

Centerpiece 20 min a game
Mason 19 min a game
Thats 40 minutes a game of barelly adequate d, at best, removed. Can't underestimate that.

Less minutes for bonner due to improved frontcourt defencivelly.
Healthy parker, improved Hill, improved Blair, improved Jefferson,
added best center in Europe Splitter, added 20th pick
Anderson, who looks very promising, simmons might work out, not like hes gonna see alot of minutes anyway.

Common sense, says that there is a much higher chance spurs will be better defencivelly this year.
As an added bonus the west got weaker, which should also help.

[mingus]

not having Mason on the team will help in itself. the guy did absolutely nothing for this team last year. he didn't defend, score, create--nothing. i'm just glad a guy like Anderson, who seems to have potential, is replacing him.

people don't understand how both unlucky and shitty the Spurs were last season, yet still managed to beat a hit dallas team, and have many people at the end thinnking they thrust themselves into the eilte teams.

RJ was a horrible fit last year offensively on the basis of his 3-point shooting.
IF he improves on this front alone, this team is going far.

Blair was inconsistent and appeared to have hit a wall last year.
IF he is able to play consistently and the hard work that put in over the summer offensively pays off, GREAT.

Bogans - ugh
addition by subtraction and less minutes going to players that hurt the team.

JA>>>>>>>>>Mason

this year we can also put together a formidable frontcourt --meaning no Bonner.

this team has contender written all over it if things work out for the better. this team is going into this year so fuckin' disrespected that it's sickeneing. meanwhile, every body is blowin' OKC.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Having two top notch rebounders like Duncan and Blair as well as two plus rebounders like McDyess and Splitter(hopefully) will allow the guards to run a bit more. We will not need to keep everyone back all the time to secure a rebound.

[Manufan909]

well, we took a sg in college and tried to make him a pg. So ymmv.

ymmv?

[Obstructed_View]

ymmv?


Clicky (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ymmv)

[Manufan909]

I've got people like to take care of me OV, so I don't have to deal with the messy business of opening up new tabs or windows.:toast

[Obstructed_View]

I've got people like to take care of me OV, so I don't have to deal with the messy business of opening up new tabs or windows.:toast

lol. Glad you took that with the intended humor. :)

[DPG21920]

As an aside:

I don't mean to come off negative. I am very excited about this year and despite my worries and criticisms, I fully expect the Spurs to be an excellent team. There is plenty to be excited about.

But when you are one of the teams on the outside looking in from a championship perspective, it is important to be realistic in your shortcomings. I for one am very worried about the SF position and subsequently the perimeter defense. I only harp on it because it seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to the Spurs' problems. But I am hoping for the best and I hope guys step up or these problems are addressed.

[TD 21]

As an aside:

I don't mean to come off negative. I am very excited about this year and despite my worries and criticisms, I fully expect the Spurs to be an excellent team. There is plenty to be excited about.

But when you are one of the teams on the outside looking in from a championship perspective, it is important to be realistic in your shortcomings. I for one am very worried about the SF position and subsequently the perimeter defense. I only harp on it because it seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to the Spurs' problems. But I am hoping for the best and I hope guys step up or these problems are addressed.

It's definitely not the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is essentially something everyone is aware of, but chooses to ignore or avoid discussing because they're not comfortable doing so. The SF position and perimeter defense have been talked about ad nauseam.

I don't disagree with the majority of things you say and I've never been known as an eternal optimist, but I do think you're (and you're not the only one) overly critical of the team.

I don't need to explain to you all of their strengths, since it's clear you know the game and the team well enough to know them. But because you know the team so well, you have a tendency to nitpick and harp on their few glaring weaknesses to the point of overshadowing their many strengths.

[DPG21920]

The reason I call it the elephant in the room is because even though there are a few (vocal) that discuss and harp on it, most seem to think RJ and the rest are fine and expect big time improvements.

I may be critical, but I don't think I am overly critical. I am just more vocal than most about the things (negative) I see. I don't nit pick a million different things, but the major things I see.

I am only evaluating with regards to a championship team and in my opinion what the Spurs need to get to that point. I know they will be an excellent team, but as everyone else, I am only concerned with one thing at this point in time because those are the expectations with Duncan/Parker/Gino still in tact.

[ElNono]

It's definitely not the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is essentially something everyone is aware of, but chooses to ignore or avoid discussing because they're not comfortable doing so. The SF position and perimeter defense have been talked about ad nauseam.


You got me curious now. What do you think that is?

[jjktkk]

The reason I call it the elephant in the room is because even though there are a few (vocal) that discuss and harp on it, most seem to think RJ and the rest are fine and expect big time improvements.

I may be critical, but I don't think I am overly critical. I am just more vocal than most about the things (negative) I see. I don't nit pick a million different things, but the major things I see.

I am only evaluating with regards to a championship team and in my opinion what the Spurs need to get to that point. I know they will be an excellent team, but as everyone else, I am only concerned with one thing at this point in time because those are the expectations with Duncan/Parker/Gino still in tact.

IMO you are not being overly critical about the sf position, but my question is what can the Spurs do about it? Make a trade, like the Wilson Chandler rumor on here last week? It would be great if the Spurs could pick a perimeter defender. I do not currently see a lock down perimeter defender on the Spurs team right now.

[dbestpro]

IMO you are not being overly critical about the sf position, but my question is what can the Spurs do about it? Make a trade, like the Wilson Chandler rumor on here last week? It would be great if the Spurs could pick a perimeter defender. I do not currently see a lock down perimeter defender on the Spurs team right now.

With the rules the way they are is there one in the NBA?

[ElNono]

You got me curious now. What do you think that is?

Neverminddddd!!!!! I see now what you meant...

[Cessation]

I think the lakers are the favorites, no doubt about that, but its not easy to threepeat, its a long season, and in the playoffs upsets do happen. After the lakers though, who would you put above the Spurs in the playoffs? Mavs? Thunder? Blazers? Rockets? Come on. I like the Spurs chances, come playoff time.

Jefferson doesn't have to have big improvement over last season for spurs to compete for a championship, lets not forget hes just the 4th, maybe 5th option, hill will be even better. RJ already played much better last year during second half of the season, and in the playoffs, he was a big reason spurs upset the 2nd seeded mavs.

Backup sf? What is that like 18 minutes a game? I'm sure between anderson, simmons, gee, manu, hill, theyll be able to cover it, lol. Lets not overreact here, more importantly our interior d, well be much better with the addition of splitter, and improved blair.

[TD 21]

The reason I call it the elephant in the room is because even though there are a few (vocal) that discuss and harp on it, most seem to think RJ and the rest are fine and expect big time improvements.

I may be critical, but I don't think I am overly critical. I am just more vocal than most about the things (negative) I see. I don't nit pick a million different things, but the major things I see.

I am only evaluating with regards to a championship team and in my opinion what the Spurs need to get to that point. I know they will be an excellent team, but as everyone else, I am only concerned with one thing at this point in time because those are the expectations with Duncan/Parker/Gino still in tact.

I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Those that think Jefferson will improve, I don't think are under the illusion that he's suddenly going to turn into a stopper. At least not the vast majority of them. It's more so that he'll have more knowledge and understanding of the system and because of that, more confidence, assertiveness and improved efficiency.

Overly critical wasn't the right term, more like overly negative.

So am I. It's clear they have a glaring weakness. But find me a team that doesn't. Should the Lakers win the championship, they'll likely do so despite mediocre outside shooting. Should the Heat win the championship, they'll likely do so despite being weak in the middle. Should the Celtics win the championship, they'll likely do so despite not having a stopper. Should the Magic win the championship, they'll likely do so without a true go-to perimeter option, as far as championship teams go.

Can the Spurs overcome (shore up?) their glaring weakness? Only time will tell obviously, but I think they have enough strengths that it shouldn't be dismissed or ruled out.


You got me curious now. What do you think that is?

You're confused. Re-read what I wrote.

[ElNono]

Yes, I see what you mean now. Nevermind.

[MaNu4Tres]

I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Those that think Jefferson will improve, I don't think are under the illusion that he's suddenly going to turn into a stopper. At least not the vast majority of them. It's more so that he'll have more knowledge and understanding of the system and because of that, more confidence, assertiveness and improved efficiency.

Overly critical wasn't the right term, more like overly negative.

So am I. It's clear they have a glaring weakness. But find me a team that doesn't. Should the Lakers win the championship, they'll likely do so despite mediocre outside shooting. Should the Heat win the championship, they'll likely do so despite being weak in the middle. Should the Celtics win the championship, they'll likely do so despite not having a stopper. Should the Magic win the championship, they'll likely do so without a true go-to perimeter option, as far as championship teams go.

Can the Spurs overcome (shore up?) their glaring weakness? Only time will tell obviously, but I think they have enough strengths that it shouldn't be dismissed or ruled out.


One of the better posts I've seen in a while.

:tu

[jjktkk]

With the rules the way they are is there one in the NBA?

Good point.

[duncan228]

Random Manu twitter today.


@George_Hill3 (http://twitter.com/George_Hill3) easier to get an elephant to the moon than getting TD to tweet.

[duncan228]

It gets better. :lol

George Hill: I'm still trying to get Tim and Matt on twitter and this is the face he gave me. LOL sorry Twittas I'm trying

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/lead/lead584.jpg

[DesignatedT]

:lmao

[DPG21920]

I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Those that think Jefferson will improve, I don't think are under the illusion that he's suddenly going to turn into a stopper. At least not the vast majority of them. It's more so that he'll have more knowledge and understanding of the system and because of that, more confidence, assertiveness and improved efficiency.

Overly critical wasn't the right term, more like overly negative.

So am I. It's clear they have a glaring weakness. But find me a team that doesn't. Should the Lakers win the championship, they'll likely do so despite mediocre outside shooting. Should the Heat win the championship, they'll likely do so despite being weak in the middle. Should the Celtics win the championship, they'll likely do so despite not having a stopper. Should the Magic win the championship, they'll likely do so without a true go-to perimeter option, as far as championship teams go.

Can the Spurs overcome (shore up?) their glaring weakness? Only time will tell obviously, but I think they have enough strengths that it shouldn't be dismissed or ruled out.

.

While it is true that all teams have weaknesses, the top teams weaknesses are not as glaring and they have proven that their strengths are more than enough to overcome.

Such as LA last year. Or Boston. The Spurs have not had the luxury of knowing their weaknesses aren't deal breakers.

[Cessation]

tim looks baked lol

[Spurs Brazil]

It gets better. :lol

George Hill: I'm still trying to get Tim and Matt on twitter and this is the face he gave me. LOL sorry Twittas I'm trying

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/lead/lead584.jpg

:lol

[Leonard Curse]

As an aside:

I don't mean to come off negative. I am very excited about this year and despite my worries and criticisms, I fully expect the Spurs to be an excellent team. There is plenty to be excited about.

But when you are one of the teams on the outside looking in from a championship perspective, it is important to be realistic in your shortcomings. I for one am very worried about the SF position and subsequently the perimeter defense. I only harp on it because it seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to the Spurs' problems. But I am hoping for the best and I hope guys step up or these problems are addressed.

and i too apologize if i come off as to much of a homer. guess i cant help it but perimeter D is def. the problem us homers just hope resolves itself with some discipline from pop to RJ & the rest of our team. he needs to get their ass in gear. no D no play, period.

[TD 21]

While it is true that all teams have weaknesses, the top teams weaknesses are not as glaring and they have proven that their strengths are more than enough to overcome.

Such as LA last year. Or Boston. The Spurs have not had the luxury of knowing their weaknesses aren't deal breakers.

Being weak in the middle or not having a go-to scorer (for a team with championship aspirations) are not as glaring as not having a stopper?

The Heat have proven that their strengths are more than enough to overcome their weaknesses? I must have missed when that happened.

The Magic, sure they made the Finals, but as far as winning a championship goes, they haven't proven it.

The Celtics have, but not with the weakness they now have (lack of a stopper).

The Lakers are the only one that has proven that their strengths are enough to overcome their weaknesses.

I agree that the Spurs haven't had the luxury of knowing whether their weaknesses are deal breakers, but neither have the Heat, yet I suspect you have no qualms proclaiming them legit contenders.

At this writing, the Spurs shouldn't be counted in, but they also shouldn't be counted out.

[duncan228]

More from Hill trying to get Duncan on twitter.


Jus got a laugh out if TIM so I kno he's thinking bout it. But he wanted me to tell y'all he loves all you fans....:)

[Cessation]

Anderson played pretty good defence against the heat.
Did a solid job guarding lebron.
6 points, 3 boards, 2 assists, 2 steels, 2 blocks
In 20 minutes.
He looks very promising, long and athletic, a legit backup sf.
If anderson could get the main minutes and simmons and gee
whats left, we'd be set.

[DPG21920]

Being weak in the middle or not having a go-to scorer (for a team with championship aspirations) are not as glaring as not having a stopper?

The Heat have proven that their strengths are more than enough to overcome their weaknesses? I must have missed when that happened.

Well sure, if you are comparing a team with 3 top 15 players (including two that are top 5) and the reigning MVP along with balanced shooting to the Spurs, then that makes sense.


The Magic, sure they made the Finals, but as far as winning a championship goes, they haven't proven it.

Sure, but when you get to a finals, you know you are doing more good than bad and the weaknesses aren't as glaring. You know you have a legit shot. Getting swept in the 2nd clearly shows a bigger problem.


The Celtics have, but not with the weakness they now have (lack of a stopper).

When did they have this crazy defensive stopper? Posey? Ok, but they got to the finals just last year. So again, they can say they have a legit shot. Their holes aren't nearly as alarming as the Spurs. If they would have gotten swept in the 2nd round, then you could compare them. But instead, they got to their 2nd finals in 3 years.


The Lakers are the only one that has proven that their strengths are enough to overcome their weaknesses.

When you repeat, you don't have many weaknesses, at least not in the context we are discussing. The weaknesses we are discussing are ones that prohibit a teams legitimate chances for a title.


I agree that the Spurs haven't had the luxury of knowing whether their weaknesses are deal breakers, but neither have the Heat, yet I suspect you have no qualms proclaiming them legit contenders.

At this writing, the Spurs shouldn't be counted in, but they also shouldn't be counted out.

Back to the Heat, you are right, I don't have a problem proclaiming them a legit contender. They had one of the top defenses in the league last year and got known better defensive players. That is not the case with the Spurs.

The Heat have top tier talent as I described above. That is not the case with the Spurs.

The Spurs know their weaknesses. They are the same as last year and the 2nd round sweep is evidence that the weaknesses are deal breakers.

I am not counting the Spurs out, but to compare them to the Heat, Bos, LA is completely apples to oranges as things stand today.

[ElNono]

To me:

The Lakers have arguably one of the best 2 players in the league and possibly one of the top 2 PF in the league, plus a very talented surrounding cast, PLUS possibly the best coach in the league ever, PLUS the experience to know what it takes to win it all.
The Heat have arguably one of the best 2 players in the league and possibly one of the top 2 SG in the league, plus a very talented surrounding cast.
The Magic have the most dominant big man right now, and still working his way to his prime. After witnessing the Duncan era, we know exactly what effect that has on a team.
The Celtics are probably the one with the less over-the-top talent in this group of teams (and probably closer to the Spurs), BUT they have the same personnel that made them the #1 defensive team in the league (stopper or no stopper). They know they can hang their hats on that and go deep because of it.

Ultimately, there's only one champion. I don't think that because the Celtics couldn't beat the Lakers in game 7 of the Finals 'they couldn't overcome their weaknesses'.
There's circumstantial stuff like Perkins getting injured in Game 6, and missing Game 7 that could have changed the results of the series.

I think the Spurs are closer to the Celtics, but they need to defend like them to even have a chance. And I don't see it with the personnel we have. Could they turn it around and surprise us all? That's why we watch.

[8FOR!3]

PLUS possibly the best coach in the league ever

When did LA sign Larry Brown?

[ElNono]

When did LA sign Larry Brown?

:lol

Gotta give credit to Phil... I love Larry BTW, even if he likes to change teams faster than underwear...

[TD 21]

Well sure, if you are comparing a team with 3 top 15 players (including two that are top 5) and the reigning MVP along with balanced shooting to the Spurs, then that makes sense.

I'm not comparing the two. All I'm saying is the Heat haven't accomplished shit yet, yet you and the vast majority have no problem anointing them.

Balanced shooting? Miller and House are the only two good range shooters in the rotation and the only other one on the team is Jones.


Sure, but when you get to a finals, you know you are doing more good than bad and the weaknesses aren't as glaring. You know you have a legit shot. Getting swept in the 2nd clearly shows a bigger problem. Obviously, they're doing more good than bad, but they haven't proven their strengths can overcome their weaknesses. Not if the measuring stick is winning a championship.


When did they have this crazy defensive stopper? Posey? Ok, but they got to the finals just last year. So again, they can say they have a legit shot. Their holes aren't nearly as alarming as the Spurs. If they would have gotten swept in the 2nd round, then you could compare them. But instead, they got to their 2nd finals in 3 years. Posey in '08 was a legit stopper and T. Allen was last season. Both are gone. They no longer have one. That means they have the same hole the Spurs have. Why is it alarming for the Spurs, but not for the Celtics? Don't tell me they've proven they can overcome it. They haven't.


Back to the Heat, you are right, I don't have a problem proclaiming them a legit contender. They had one of the top defenses in the league last year and got known better defensive players. That is not the case with the Spurs.

The Heat have top tier talent as I described above. That is not the case with the Spurs.

The Spurs know their weaknesses. They are the same as last year and the 2nd round sweep is evidence that the weaknesses are deal breakers.

I am not counting the Spurs out, but to compare them to the Heat, Bos, LA is completely apples to oranges as things stand today.Splitter is not a known defensive player? I realize he's unproven in the NBA, but his mere presence will be an upgrade in the middle on the likes of Blair and Bonner.

Duncan is still top ten, Ginobili is still top fifteen and Parker, should he regain the form from when he was last fully healthy and in rhythm, has shown he can play at or near a top fifteen level. I agree, the Heat have two top five and three top fifteen, but the Spurs have a better 4-8.

No, they're not the same. The Spurs didn't have the continuity they're likely to have this time around and they didn't have Splitter, who's mere presence alone will make them better defensively.

I'd put the Spurs below those teams as well, all I'm saying is that if the Spurs have to prove it, then why don't the Heat?


The Celtics are probably the one with the less over-the-top talent in this group of teams (and probably closer to the Spurs), BUT they have the same personnel that made them the #1 defensive team in the league (stopper or no stopper). They know they can hang their hats on that and go deep because of it.

Ultimately, there's only one champion. I don't think that because the Celtics couldn't beat the Lakers in game 7 of the Finals 'they couldn't overcome their weaknesses'.
There's circumstantial stuff like Perkins getting injured in Game 6, and missing Game 7 that could have changed the results of the series.

I think the Spurs are closer to the Celtics, but they need to defend like them to even have a chance. And I don't see it with the personnel we have. Could they turn it around and surprise us all? That's why we watch.

No, they don't. They no longer have a stopper and when Perkins returns, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch up. It's far from a certainty that at any point this season he's the player he is when fully healthy.

The Spurs have the personnel to defend close to the level of the Celtics.

[DPG21920]

I hope you are watching this Clippers game when you say the Spurs have the personnel to defend like Boston.

[DPG21920]

I'm not comparing the two. All I'm saying is the Heat haven't accomplished shit yet, yet you and the vast majority have no problem anointing them.

We gave you the reasons why and they are logical.


Balanced shooting? Miller and House are the only two good range shooters in the rotation and the only other one on the team is Jones.

You are forgetting Bosh and Haslem that can hit the 15-18 footer. You are forgetting James who hit 129 3's. Wade can also midrange. They have shooters for every spot on the floor and plenty from 3.


Obviously, they're doing more good than bad, but they haven't proven their strengths can overcome their weaknesses. Not if the measuring stick is winning a championship.

You are being disingenuous. Just because you don't win a title, does not mean you can't overcome the weaknesses and that you don't measure up to the measuring stick of a title.

Getting to a finals means you are there. Getting swept in the 2nd round means you are not.



Posey in '08 was a legit stopper and T. Allen was last season. Both are gone. They no longer have one. That means they have the same hole the Spurs have. Why is it alarming for the Spurs, but not for the Celtics? Don't tell me they've proven they can overcome it. They haven't.

They don't have the same hole as the Spurs. Quit saying that. They are clearly a better defensive team than the Spurs and you are overstating Allen's defense and his impact on that end.

Again, the Celtics have a recent finals win and got to the finals last year. That is why it is not alarming. The Celts even made the finals last year despite being very unhealthy.


Splitter is not a known defensive player? I realize he's unproven in the NBA, but his mere presence will be an upgrade in the middle on the likes of Blair and Bonner.

No, he is not a known defensive player in the NBA. I agree it is likely he will be a huge upgrade over Bonner, but that is not saying much. I expect Tiago to help.


Duncan is still top ten, Ginobili is still top fifteen and Parker, should he regain the form from when he was last fully healthy and in rhythm, has shown he can play at or near a top fifteen level. I agree, the Heat have two top five and three top fifteen, but the Spurs have a better 4-8.

This is being crazy homer.


No, they're not the same. The Spurs didn't have the continuity they're likely to have this time around and they didn't have Splitter, who's mere presence alone will make them better defensively.

I'd put the Spurs below those teams as well, all I'm saying is that if the Spurs have to prove it, then why don't the Heat?

They do have to prove it, but we are going off of what we know and probabilities, not certainties. At this point, the Heat look much better than the Spurs.




No, they don't. They no longer have a stopper and when Perkins returns, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch up. It's far from a certainty that at any point this season he's the player he is when fully healthy.

The Spurs have the personnel to defend close to the level of the Celtics.

This is really crazy.

[TD 21]

I hope you are watching this Clippers game when you say the Spurs have the personnel to defend like Boston.

That's not what I said. And way to judge their defensive potential based off of one half of a preseason game, where they're missing their second and third best defensive bigs. Yep, this is a real indicator of the defense we're likely to see.


We gave you the reasons why and they are logical.

I don't care if they have the five best players of all-time, they haven't proven shit yet. Do you not get this? It's not even like all three of them have won championships in the past.


You are forgetting Bosh and Haslem that can hit the 15-18 footer. You are forgetting James who hit 129 3's. Wade can also midrange. They have shooters for every spot on the floor and plenty from 3. I'm not forgetting. I said range shooting. Duncan, McDyess and Bonner can all hit from 15-18 feet. James is an erratic shooter, who only has that many makes from three because of how many attempts he has. They have three high percentage three point shooters and only two will be in the rotation.



You are being disingenuous. Just because you don't win a title, does not mean you can't overcome the weaknesses and that you don't measure up to the measuring stick of a title.

Getting to a finals means you are there. Getting swept in the 2nd round means you are not. That's not what I said. You're exposing yourself as one of many who lacks basic reading comprehension. I don't care if the general consensus is they have the potential to, the Magic aren't proven if the measuring stick is winning a championship.


They don't have the same hole as the Spurs. Quit saying that. They are clearly a better defensive team than the Spurs and you are overstating Allen's defense and his impact on that end.

Again, the Celtics have a recent finals win and got to the finals last year. That is why it is not alarming. The Celts even made the finals last year despite being very unhealthy.
Yes, they do. I'm not arguing whether they're a better defensive team than the Spurs, I'm saying they don't have a wing stopper, which is the Spurs primary problem defensively. I'm not at all overstating Allen's defense. Was he not a bonafide stopper in last year's playoffs? If you don't think he was, then you either weren't watching or have no idea what you were watching.

Yeah and they did so with a stopper, which they no longer have. Why is that so hard to understand?



No, he is not a known defensive player in the NBA. I agree it is likely he will be a huge upgrade over Bonner, but that is not saying much. I expect Tiago to help. Which I already said. The Spurs were the 9th best defensive team in the league last season with either Blair or Bonner playing center defensively for long stretches. How could Splitter not make them at least slightly better defensively? Unless you think his impact will be offset by the departure of the centerpiece.


This is being crazy homer. No, it's called having an original opinion. The numbers back up what I'm saying.


They do have to prove it, but we are going off of what we know and probabilities, not certainties. At this point, the Heat look much better than the Spurs. We're not talking about look. Here's what we know: the Spurs haven't won a title with this cast and neither have the Heat with theirs. So get off their jock and stop acting like they're five time champions. We all know they're more likely to win than the Spurs, I'm not disputing that.

I'm not a homer and if you've seen enough of my posts, you'd know that. I just think you're one of these people who goes by what the general consensus is and also, are so focused on not coming off as a homer, that you've gone the other way to the point now where you don't even sound like a Spurs fan.


This is really crazy.No, it's not. I'm not guaranteeing the Spurs play close to the level of the Celtics defensively, but the personnel is there to.

[DPG21920]

You can play the semantics game all you want. It just makes your arguments look weak and silly.

:lol The classic "I'm not a homer, and you are trying to go the other way" line. Please show me where I rip the team on things that are not true. Please show me where I don't say I hope the team does great and that I don't think they will be a great team. K thanks.

I said balanced shooting, not range. You lack reading comprehension.

[TD 21]

You can play the semantics game all you want. It just makes your arguments look weak and silly.

:lol The classic "I'm not a homer, and you are trying to go the other way" line. Please show me where I rip the team on things that are not true. Please show me where I don't say I hope the team does great and that I don't think they will be a great team. K thanks.

Nice cop out.

Please continue on worshiping your Heat.

[DPG21920]

:lol Worshiping the Heat? Another random throw away line. I am not worshiping the Heat but discussing them realistically. Have I said something outlandish about them? I can point to the outlandish things you say about the Spurs and other teams while trying to argue semantics (using the "if they have not won a title, then it means sh*t!" argument).

How is it a cop out? How can you debate a guy that says the Spurs have the players to defend as well as the Celtics (while at the same time saying you are not saying they will defend like them) and saying the Spurs have more talent than the Heat?

[TD 21]

:lol Worshiping the Heat? Another random throw away line. I am not worshiping the Heat but discussing them realistically. Have I said something outlandish about them? I can point to the outlandish things you say about the Spurs and other teams while trying to argue semantics (using the "if they have not won a title, then it means sh*t!" argument).

How is it a cop out? How can you debate a guy that says the Spurs have the players to defend as well as the Celtics (while at the same time saying you are not saying they will defend like them) and saying the Spurs have more talent than the Heat?

For the record, I never said you said range shooting, which means you lack basic comprehension. I win.

It's a cop out because you attempted to put an end to this rather than continuing on. It's just as well, as I was in the process of annihilating you.

That's not what I said. I said close to and I stand by that. I didn't say they will defend close to them, I said they have the personnel to. Or do I have to dumb it down further for you? It's not like their was a difference of 18 spots between them last season defensively and the Spurs figure to be better defensively this season.

[DPG21920]

:lmao at the "I self proclaim the internetz victory" speech. What a joke.

[DPG21920]

Also, didn't I also say I expect the Spurs to be better defensively? I said Tiago will help. I simply said I am not expecting a drastic change and I certainly don't see the personnel that could even up the difference between the Celts and Spurs defensively.

[TD 21]

I never said anything about a drastic change.

If they're committed and Pop doesn't play ridiculous lineups for long stretches that give them no chance at being good defensively, then yes, I do think they have the personnel to be a few spots better than they were defensively last season, which would make them closer defensively to the level of the Celtics.

But let me guess, that's irrational thinking because some talking head on ESPN didn't say it and I'm being a homer?

[Leonard Curse]

dpg, give the spurs some credit you know the spurs never play zone defense like that!!!mainly on inbound but for almost three quarters????!!!! there trying to make the game exciting or get good at zone defense one or the other notice the 4th and end of 3rd Q D. what do you think?

[DPG21920]

That is not exactly what you said, and that is not why I said you were being a homer. I said you were being a homer with your comments and that you were arguing semantics. I did not say you were a homer, but that you were making some homer statements earlier.

[DPG21920]

dpg, give the spurs some credit you know the spurs never play zone defense like that!!!mainly on inbound but for almost three quarters????!!!! there trying to make the game exciting or get good at zone defense one or the other notice the 4th and end of 3rd Q D. what do you think?

Look at my comments in the game thread. I am happy with the teams rebounding. That is the big plus for the Spurs that I see. I give the Spurs a ton of credit.

I am simply discussing the glaring problem right now. Again, that does not mean I think they suck or they can't overcome it. It just means I see it as an alarming situation.

[TD 21]

That is not exactly what you said, and that is not why I said you were being a homer. I said you were being a homer with your comments and that you were arguing semantics. I did not say you were a homer, but that you were making some homer statements earlier.

Calling Duncan a top ten player is being a homer? Calling Ginobili around a top fifteen player is being a homer? You act like I called them two top five players.

[Leonard Curse]

fucking EPIC ENDING!!!!!!!!!

[TinTin]

Calling Duncan a top ten player is being a homer? Calling Ginobili around a top fifteen player is being a homer? You act like I called them two top five players.

You still have to get through the regular season to start the playoffs. Ginobili is unpredictable in that terms and while you can't entirely rely on Duncan anymore because he is past his prime. I think it is really crazy to say that SA can defend like Boston

[TD 21]

Except I never said that.

I have no problem with anyone taking me to task for something I said. What I have a problem with is when people fail to comprehend what I said and instead resort to making things up. Get it right.

[ElNono]

No, they don't. They no longer have a stopper and when Perkins returns, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch up. It's far from a certainty that at any point this season he's the player he is when fully healthy.

What stopper did they have last season???? They were still #1 defense in the NBA. And Perkins has 82 games to feel better. We simply don't have anybody as rugged as him to tandem with TD.


The Spurs have the personnel to defend close to the level of the Celtics.

I don't see it. Rondo is a top defender at the point. Pierce is a pretty tough dude. They have two battle-tested defensive towers in the middle. They don't have room for error, as seen when Garnett went down, and the fact they're also getting up there in age but when they're all available, they can play serious D.

Our perimeter defense is average at best. I would actually feel better if our wing situation would be anything close to decent, but it's alarming from a defensive standpoint. Our interior D turns to pretty pathetic once TD sits down, and TD simply can't play that many minutes anymore. We're going to have to make incredible big strides to become anything remotely close to the brand of defense the Celtics play. Namely, RJ has to stop playing that lax, soft defense. TP needs to also be much more aggressive defensively. And inside, you need to hope rookie Tiago is anything close to Perkins. Because McDyess is not going to turn into something like him at this point.
I mean, stranger things might have happened, but right now I'm pretty skeptic.

[TD 21]

What stopper did they have last season???? They were still #1 defense in the NBA. And Perkins has 82 games to feel better. We simply don't have anybody as rugged as him to tandem with TD.



I don't see it. Rondo is a top defender at the point. Pierce is a pretty tough dude. They have two battle-tested defensive towers in the middle. They don't have room for error, as seen when Garnett went down, and the fact they're also getting up there in age but when they're all available, they can play serious D.

Our perimeter defense is average at best. I would actually feel better if our wing situation would be anything close to decent, but it's alarming from a defensive standpoint. Our interior D turns to pretty pathetic once TD sits down, and TD simply can't play that many minutes anymore. We're going to have to make incredible big strides to become anything remotely close to the brand of defense the Celtics play. Namely, RJ has to stop playing that lax, soft defense. TP needs to also be much more aggressive defensively. And inside, you need to hope rookie Tiago is anything close to Perkins.
I mean, stranger things might have happened, but right now I'm pretty skeptic.

For the umpteenth time, they had T. Allen and they had a healthy Perkins.

The Celtics have better defensive personnel, no question. But I don't see it as being better by leaps and bounds. That doesn't guarantee that the Spurs personnel plays to their potential defensively, though.

To clarify, I mean close in terms of rankings, not necessarily efficiency. Their was a 7.5 differential in efficiency last season and that may not change drastically this season, but it doesn't mean the Spurs can't come a few spots closer to being top five (they were ninth last season).

[ElNono]

For the umpteenth time, they had T. Allen and they had a healthy Perkins.

Tony Allen averaged 16 mins. The perimeter D for Boston was mainly Rondo/Pierce/Ray Allen. With Ray being the designated Kobe stopper in the Finals and making a commendable job at it. And I personally don't consider an injury having a weakness necessarily. That stuff is simply unexpected. We have had the same problems in seasons past. I'm sure Perkins will come around. It's a long season. To me a weakness is what we have at SF from a defensive standpoint. Injury or not, we've a hole there. And BTW, I'm not looking for another Bowen. But what we have right now averaging 30+ mins can't possibly get it done.


The Celtics have better defensive personnel, no question. But I don't see it as being better by leaps and bounds. That doesn't guarantee that the Spurs personnel plays to their potential defensively, though.

To clarify, I mean close in terms of rankings, not necessarily efficiency. Their was a 7.5 differential in efficiency last season and that may not change drastically this season, but it doesn't mean the Spurs can't come a few spots closer to being top five (they were ninth last season).

To me, the bar is set by the Lakers and the Celtics. And right now I see a lot less glaring holes there than I see on this Spurs roster. The Spurs simply have a very long ways to get to that level of defense, and I'm skeptic we can get there with this personnel. Obviously, a lot of things can happen. Injuries, trades, etc. I'm just giving you my impression at this point in time.

About the other two teams you mentioned, I haven't seen anything about Miami yet, so I really can't say how they're going to do. I expect them to curbstomp over a lot of teams, but defensively you just don't know. The Magic will depend on how they use Howard to protect the rim. They've been up and down on that.

[TD 21]

Tony Allen averaged 16 mins. The perimeter D for Boston was mainly Rondo/Pierce/Ray Allen. With Ray being the designated Kobe stopper in the Finals and making a commendable job at it. And I personally don't consider an injury having a weakness necessarily. That stuff is simply unexpected. We have had the same problems in seasons past. I'm sure Perkins will come around. It's a long season. To me a weakness is what we have at SF from a defensive standpoint. Injury or not, we've a hole there. And BTW, I'm not looking for another Bowen. But what we have right now averaging 30+ mins can't possibly get it done.



To me, the bar is set by the Lakers and the Celtics. And right now I see a lot less glaring holes there than I see on this Spurs roster. The Spurs simply have a very long ways to get to that level of defense, and I'm skeptic we can get there with this personnel. Obviously, a lot of things can happen. Injuries, trades, etc. I'm just giving you my impression at this point in time.

About the other two teams you mentioned, I haven't seen anything about Miami yet, so I really can't say how they're going to do. I expect them to curbstomp over a lot of teams, but defensively you just don't know. The Magic will depend on how they use Howard to protect the rim. They've been up and down on that.

I'm aware of how many minutes he played. He was still their stopper and played a key role. Having an injury isn't a weakness, but it can and often does negatively impact a team. I don't think they're going to plummet from 2nd to 12th without Perkins, but nonetheless it's a loss for the time being.

The Spurs have one glaring hole. You can argue that it's more glaring than the Celtics', that's fair, but let's not act like this team has 50 things wrong with them and the gap between the Lakers and Celtics to Spurs is gargantuan.

Don't give me the "swept in the 2nd round" excuse. The '09 Suns missed the playoffs. The '10 Suns took the Lakers to game 6 of the Conference Finals and they did it with largely the same team (Frye was the one notable addition).

[MaNu4Tres]

That Suns series was fools gold.

Every game that series went dead even (or relatively close) going into the 4th quarter.

Spurs perimeter defense then went to crap due to the amount of minutes (exhaustion) they had to play because of how terrible Mason and Bogans had been. This issue also hurt the Spurs overall offensive execution in the 4th, as Manu and Tony were responsible to execute the majority of the plays while they were extremely gassed.

If Spurs had a half decent bench and if one shot here or there doesn't go in at crucial times for the Suns-- The series could have easily been 2-2 or even 3-1 Spurs.

Saying Spurs are significant behind the league's " elite" based off a 4-0 fools gold loss to the Suns is pretty foolish.

That series was a lot closer than a 4-0.

[ElNono]

I'm aware of how many minutes he played. He was still their stopper and played a key role. Having an injury isn't a weakness, but it can and often does negatively impact a team. I don't think they're going to plummet from 2nd to 12th without Perkins, but nonetheless it's a loss for the time being.

If you have to depend on other teams having injuries, then you have bigger problems. You can't plan like that. You plan like everyone is going to be healthy and then you let things play out.
As far as Perkins, all the Celtics have to worry about is getting to the playoffs. They *KNOW* that Perkins will be back and their defense will ultimately get back to their standards. I see the Celts a lot like the Spurs of a couple of years ago. Where they didn't worry much about HCA because they knew they had enough defense to win on the road. They'll lose that swagger and confidence when they can't sustain that level of defensive excellence anymore, but that just hasn't happened yet.


The Spurs have one glaring hole. You can argue that it's more glaring than the Celtics', that's fair, but let's not act like this team has 50 things wrong with them and the gap between the Lakers and Celtics to Spurs is gargantuan.

There's definitely one that's glaring. There are others that are not as glaring, but they're still somewhat important. The help for Timmy inside is pretty important, and we're kinda going into the season without really having an answer there. Maybe Tiago will be the answer? Let's hope so, but it's far from a sure thing.
Is it a gargantuan difference between the Spurs defense and the current bar? I wouldn't call it gargantuan. But I'll say that the Spurs have their work cut out for them to get there. And it's going to be seriously difficult to get there unless some players change their defensive game around and the rook is exceptionally good. As I said earlier, it's early, and stranger things have happened.


Don't give me the "swept in the 2nd round" excuse. The '09 Suns missed the playoffs. The '10 Suns took the Lakers to game 6 of the Conference Finals and they did it with largely the same team (Frye was the one notable addition).

I won't give you any excuses, but let's get some things straight: The second round sweep happened, it's not an excuse. And the '09 Suns had a change of coach mid-season (Porter left with a 28-23 record), Shaq played 75 games for them (surprise, surprise, a piece that didn't fit), and they traded for Jason Richardson 30 games into the season.

[ElNono]

Saying Spurs are significant behind the league's " elite" based off a 4-0 fools gold loss to the Suns is pretty foolish.

Nobody actually said that. TD21 suggested it, and you brought it up.

And honestly, I didn't think anybody had any doubts who the best team was once the sweep was over. I'm sure the revisionist history would like to say otherwise. But feel free to talk yourself into whatever you want.

[MaNu4Tres]

Nobody actually said that. TD21 suggested it, and you brought it up.

And honestly, I didn't think anybody had any doubts who the best team was once the sweep was over. I'm sure the revisionist history would like to say otherwise. But feel free to talk yourself into whatever you want.

Before you go on implying what I said, I never said Spurs were the best team. I just explained the series was a lot closer than one would indicate by looking at just the "scoreboard".

[ElNono]

Before you go on implying what I said, I never said Spurs were the best team. I just explained the series was a lot closer than one would indicate by looking at just the "scoreboard".

Actually, the scoreboards for the most part were fairly close. And for stretches, so were the games. But really, props to the Suns because I don't think we even got them rattled, even when playing in San Antonio against the battle-tested Spurs. They were confident throughout.
The question is, if you can't draw conclusions from the playoffs, on a series that clearly exposed your weaknesses, then what are you going to draw conclusions from?

[TD 21]

If you have to depend on other teams having injuries, then you have bigger problems. You can't plan like that. You plan like everyone is going to be healthy and then you let things play out.
As far as Perkins, all the Celtics have to worry about is getting to the playoffs. They *KNOW* that Perkins will be back and their defense will ultimately get back to their standards. I see the Celts a lot like the Spurs of a couple of years ago. Where they didn't worry much about HCA because they knew they had enough defense to win on the road. They'll lose that swagger and confidence when they can't sustain that level of defensive excellence anymore, but that just hasn't happened yet.

Who said anything about depending on other teams having injuries? I said Perkins is injured, is projected to be until February and when he get's back, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch-up. So for a lot of this season, the Celtics will not have Perkins and even when he get's back, who's to say he's ever 100% this season? The O'Neal's aren't his equal defensively.


There's definitely one that's glaring. There are others that are not as glaring, but they're still somewhat important. The help for Timmy inside is pretty important, and we're kinda going into the season without really having an answer there. Maybe Tiago will be the answer? Let's hope so, but it's far from a sure thing.
Is it a gargantuan difference between the Spurs defense and the current bar? I wouldn't call it gargantuan. But I'll say that the Spurs have their work cut out for them to get there. And it's going to be seriously difficult to get there unless some players change their defensive game around and the rook is exceptionally good. As I said earlier, it's early, and stranger things have happened.

The Spurs have one of the best big rotations in the league and the best back court in the league. They have one glaring hole.

There is no bar you have to be at defensively to be a legit contender. Obviously, you've got to be amongst the best in the league, but you don't have to be at the exact level of the Celtics or Lakers.

It's not about players changing their defensive game around, it's about personnel. It's one thing to be a good team defender, but as far as man defense, particularly on the perimeter and even more so on the wings, you have to have the physical tools to go with the mindset. Someone like Simmons can try hard and watch as much film of Bowen as he likes, the reality is he's not nearly laterally quick or mobile enough to be anything close to a stopper.



I won't give you any excuses, but let's get some things straight: The second round sweep happened, it's not an excuse. And the '09 Suns had a change of coach mid-season (Porter left with a 28-23 record), Shaq played 75 games for them (surprise, surprise, a piece that didn't fit), and they traded for Jason Richardson 30 games into the season.

But just because that was the result last season, it doesn't automatically mean it will be this season or that it's this team's ceiling. I gave you the Suns example. The Nuggets are another. Swept in the 1st round by the Lakers in '08, then in '09 pushed the Lakers to game 6 in the Conference Finals. They did add Billups, but they also lost Iverson. Obviously an upgrade, but it's not like they went from Carter to Billups.

[ElNono]

Who said anything about depending on other teams having injuries? I said Perkins is injured, is projected to be until February and when he get's back, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch-up. So for a lot of this season, the Celtics will not have Perkins and even when he get's back, who's to say he's ever 100% this season? The O'Neal's aren't his equal defensively.

We'll see when Perk comes back. He's 25 and there's been plenty of players that have been able to play just fine after such injury (especially players that are not so mobile, like Perk).

BTW, one O'Neal (Jermaine) is no Perkins, but he's not bad at all either.
If anything, the Celtics addressed the potential Perkins issue by getting a 6-time NBA All-Star, and multiple All-NBA second and third team player (this is Jermaine I'm talking about, not Shaq).


The Spurs have one of the best big rotations in the league and the best back court in the league. They have one glaring hole.

I personally think they're top 3 in the backcourt. Top 10 up front *IF* they play to their potential. I still have a lot of questions about the front court rotation.


There is no bar you have to be at defensively to be a legit contender. Obviously, you've got to be amongst the best in the league, but you don't have to be at the exact level of the Celtics or Lakers.

Considering the offensive output of this team, what do you think the Spurs need to be ranked at defensively? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? There's obviously a bar. Might not be Top 1.
If I have to look at last year, I would say we need to get back at Top 3, maybe Top 5, to really contend.


It's not about players changing their defensive game around, it's about personnel. It's one thing to be a good team defender, but as far as man defense, particularly on the perimeter and even more so on the wings, you have to have the physical tools to go with the mindset. Someone like Simmons can try hard and watch as much film of Bowen as he likes, the reality is he's not nearly laterally quick or mobile enough to be anything close to a stopper.

I'm not even looking for a stopper. To me, the Bruce Bowen pipedream was over when we resigned RJ. Unless we can trade for an actual stopper and are willing to play him for 25+ mins a night, we just won't have one. Whoever gets the 14 or so minutes behind RJ, simply won't have enough time to make an impact defensively, IMO. That means guys like RJ are going to have to be able to do a decent job guarding guys like Lebron, Durant, Odom and the like. Which implies changing his defensive game around from what we've seen last season.


But just because that was the result last season, it doesn't automatically mean it will be this season or that it's this team's ceiling. I gave you the Suns example. The Nuggets are another. Swept in the 1st round by the Lakers in '08, then in '09 pushed the Lakers to game 6 in the Conference Finals. They did add Billups, but they also lost Iverson. Obviously an upgrade, but it's not like they went from Carter to Billups.

We could discuss the difference between those Nuggets teams too, if you want. But it's really pointless because I haven't used the sweep as the excuse of anything. Neither I have claimed that the Spurs ceiling is the second round. I think there's conclusions to be taken from the sweep, and I think the Spurs are aware of it (at least, they've publicly stated so). I'm not ready to say what this team ceiling is right now. Maybe 10 or so games into the season. Trades and injuries can change the landscape completely as far what the ceiling is too.

We're discussing what we think today based on what we have seen and what we know. There can be pessimistic views, there can be a optimist view, we can agree or not in certain areas. Everybody can be right and wrong, since we're merely speculating.

[jjktkk]

BTW, one O'Neal (Jermaine) is no Perkins, but he's not bad at all either.
If anything, the Celtics addressed the potential Perkins issue by getting a 6-time NBA All-Star, and multiple All-NBA second and third team player (this is Jermaine I'm talking about, not Shaq). Jermaine O'Neal is a shell of his former self. When was the last time he was an all-star?

[ElNono]

jermaine o'neal is a shell of his former self. When was the last time he was an all-star?

2007?

[SenorSpur]

To me, the bar is set by the Lakers and the Celtics. And right now I see a lot less glaring holes there than I see on this Spurs roster. The Spurs simply have a very long ways to get to that level of defense, and I'm skeptic we can get there with this personnel. Obviously, a lot of things can happen. Injuries, trades, etc. I'm just giving you my impression at this point in time.


Cosigned.

[mingus]

the Celtics' D is going to take a big step backwards with Tony Allen leaving. i think they'll be in a very similar position to the Spurs.

a guy like Dahntay Jones would be great for the Spurs. i'd give up George Hill for that guy. i don't don't know if the cotracts match or anything.

[objective]

a guy like Dahntay Jones would be great for the Spurs. i'd give up George Hill for that guy. i don't don't know if the cotracts match or anything.

wow, I wouldn't.

Anyways, Jones is making 2.5 this season (8.1 through 11-12), Spurs would have to throw in more salary to make it work.

[TD 21]

We'll see when Perk comes back. He's 25 and there's been plenty of players that have been able to play just fine after such injury (especially players that are not so mobile, like Perk).

BTW, one O'Neal (Jermaine) is no Perkins, but he's not bad at all either.
If anything, the Celtics addressed the potential Perkins issue by getting a 6-time NBA All-Star, and multiple All-NBA second and third team player (this is Jermaine I'm talking about, not Shaq).I gather you haven't watched O'Neal (Jermaine) in recent years, if you're resorting to bringing up his resume, which has no bearing on the type of player he is today, since he's nowhere near that level. Today, he's an injury prone stiff, who can't rebound and shoots a low percentage from the field for a big man.


I personally think they're top 3 in the backcourt. Top 10 up front *IF* they play to their potential. I still have a lot of questions about the front court rotation.Top 3? Name a better back court than Ginobili, Parker, Hill. Top 10 up front? The quality of their depth, 1-5 and the fact that they have a top three all around big man, makes them one of the best big rotations in the league.



Considering the offensive output of this team, what do you think the Spurs need to be ranked at defensively? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? There's obviously a bar. Might not be Top 1.
If I have to look at last year, I would say we need to get back at Top 3, maybe Top 5, to really contend.Probably no lower than 6th. But they don't necessarily have to be in the top 3. In the past, they had to be, because the team was so limited in so many other areas.


I'm not even looking for a stopper. To me, the Bruce Bowen pipedream was over when we resigned RJ. Unless we can trade for an actual stopper and are willing to play him for 25+ mins a night, we just won't have one. Whoever gets the 14 or so minutes behind RJ, simply won't have enough time to make an impact defensively, IMO. That means guys like RJ are going to have to be able to do a decent job guarding guys like Lebron, Durant, Odom and the like. Which implies changing his defensive game around from what we've seen last season.
There aren't that many actual stoppers in the league. At the least, the Spurs need someone who can do a reasonable impression of a stopper. You can play roughly 15 mpg and make an impact defensively. Just look at T. Allen. You're right though, in the end Jefferson is more than likely going to have to do a passable job guarding the bigger SF's, because he's the one who's going to spend the bulk of the minutes guarding them.


We could discuss the difference between those Nuggets teams too, if you want. But it's really pointless because I haven't used the sweep as the excuse of anything. Neither I have claimed that the Spurs ceiling is the second round. I think there's conclusions to be taken from the sweep, and I think the Spurs are aware of it (at least, they've publicly stated so). I'm not ready to say what this team ceiling is right now. Maybe 10 or so games into the season. Trades and injuries can change the landscape completely as far what the ceiling is too.

We're discussing what we think today based on what we have seen and what we know. There can be pessimistic views, there can be a optimist view, we can agree or not in certain areas. Everybody can be right and wrong, since we're merely speculating.Billups was the primary difference. But I don't buy that he singlehandedly improved them to that extent. You and others, have acted like the Spurs can't be taken seriously this season because of how last season ended. I've given two recent examples of how little that means (and let's face it, the Spurs look better than the Suns or Nuggets did going into those seasons).

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. But if you believe they're not a contender, come right out and say they're not a contender. But stop this don't-write-them-off-completely-just-in-case-they-make-me-look-like-an idiot routine. You're not the only one doing it, either.

[ElNono]

I gather you haven't watched O'Neal (Jermaine) in recent years, if you're resorting to bringing up his resume, which has no bearing on the type of player he is today, since he's nowhere near that level. Today, he's an injury prone stiff, who can't rebound and shoots a low percentage from the field for a big man.

He averaged as many rebounds as Perkins last season, in the same amount of time, while scoring more than him. They're basically even in DWS (Perk up by 0.4), where Jermain is a much better offensive player.
I agree he's injury prone though.


Top 3? Name a better back court than Ginobili, Parker, Hill.

Rondo, Allen, West.
I suspect Lebron will play some point in Miami also, like he did in Cleveland. Which would make a Lebron/Wade/Miller back court better.

And there's backcourts such as Bibby/Johnson/Crawford, Curry/Ellis/Bell, Miller/Roy/Bayless, Nash/Richardson/Childress that are arguably as good.

I still rank ours over those, but it's not that clear cut anymore. We'll see how Tony comes back.


Top 10 up front? The quality of their depth, 1-5 and the fact that they have a top three all around big man, makes them one of the best big rotations in the league.

Let's see... Duncan is Duncan, and even on the decline, he's still very effective. No doubt there. I love Blair, and he never stops being relentless, plus he looks committed and his energy will definitely help hiding his lack of size. I'm a believer there. The starting bigs look good.
Dice is still good when he decides to play, which lately is pretty much the playoffs. I don't have a problem with that. My only question is if he's getting too long in the tooth, and what happens if he can't flip the switch anymore when we need him (like Horry's last season). Time will tell. After that, we need to talk about potential. I mean, Tiago has played exactly zero minutes of NBA ball. He has spent 3 months, if that, with his new teammates and coach. Plus he's already banged up. I don't know what to tell you about him. I have more questions than certainties. Bonner, as far as defense goes, is useless, IMO. He should be at this spot, 5th big, and play situational minutes. Unfortunately, being that we're mostly an old team and we're going to need to rest our vets, and that Tiago is a big question mark at this point, I can easily see him being the 4th or even 3rd big. Which IMO is a bad sign as far our interior defense goes.


Probably no lower than 6th. But they don't necessarily have to be in the top 3. In the past, they had to be, because the team was so limited in so many other areas.

Fair enough. I agree this team probably can have an easier time scoring 100 points than in the past.


There aren't that many actual stoppers in the league. At the least, the Spurs need someone who can do a reasonable impression of a stopper. You can play roughly 15 mpg and make an impact defensively. Just look at T. Allen. You're right though, in the end Jefferson is more than likely going to have to do a passable job guarding the bigger SF's, because he's the one who's going to spend the bulk of the minutes guarding them.

I'm just looking at the amount of minutes most top perimeter players play these days (which are the kind of players you would need to throw a stopper at). You will rarely see Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, etc play less than 35-32 mins. I'm not saying you need a stopper all the time with those guys, but even if you cut it by 1/3, it's still 20 mins. There's a reason Bowen averaged 30+ mpg for us on our peak years when he basically had just that role. Sure, we're more talented offensively now, but I can't think you can cut that more than 1/3 and still be effective.


Billups was the primary difference. But I don't buy that he singlehandedly improved them to that extent.

It was a combination of both getting Billups, and jettisoning Iverson.
It really was addressing a need for that team, because the raw talent was always there, but there was no brain behind the wheel.
For example, Iverson shot more than Carmelo that last season he was there. Billups instead took second seat, let Carmelo be the star, and gave that team a floor general to better use guys like JR Smith, who has a lot of talent, but is a mental midget. The fact that they also picked up the Birdman and shored up their defensive depth on the interior didn't hurt either.


You and others, have acted like the Spurs can't be taken seriously this season because of how last season ended. I've given two recent examples of how little that means (and let's face it, the Spurs look better than the Suns or Nuggets did going into those seasons).

You've been trying to play this card for 3 posts now, and the only one to bring up the sweep has been you. You can go back and look up my posts in last season's preseason (way before the sweep), and you'll read the exact same reservations about the state of our defense in general, and the role of guys like Bonner or Finley in particular.


Nothing wrong with disagreeing. But if you believe they're not a contender, come right out and say they're not a contender. But stop this don't-write-them-off-completely-just-in-case-they-make-me-look-like-an idiot routine. You're not the only one doing it, either.

I don't have a magic ball. I don't know if there's going to be injuries or trades that will change what the team looks like compared to right now.
I don't know how Tiago is going to look. I don't know what Anderson will bring to the table. Will they be great or busts? Too many unanswered questions.

Maybe you already know how everything will play out... :rolleyes

Some of us don't, and are not ready to proclaim this team a contender in October, but are also not ready to write them off in October. Maybe we need a dozen or so games to see what this team really looks like.

And while we're talking about looking like an idiot, pretending that people stop doing something on a forum just because you say so is actually pretty high up there in the retarded department.

[RandomGuy]

JMcDonald_SAEN Jeff McDonald
Bonner will wear "self-invented" splint on sprained left thumb. "Now I know what 99 percent of the animals feel like, w/o having a thumb."

1% of animals have thumbs? :wow

Didn't think this thread would be complete without me.

[RandomGuy]

On the other hand, after having read half the thread, this may be one of the better discussions I have seen here. I find myself nodding a lot as I read. Have to finish reading before really saying anything important though.

[Russ]

But just because that was the result last season, it doesn't automatically mean it will be this season or that it's this team's ceiling. I gave you the Suns example. The Nuggets are another. Swept in the 1st round by the Lakers in '08, then in '09 pushed the Lakers to game 6 in the Conference Finals. They did add Billups, but they also lost Iverson. Obviously an upgrade, but it's not like they went from Carter to Billups.

Don't forget about the 2000 Lakers.

Swept by the Spurs (2d round) in '99, NBA champs the next year.

[Russ]

"Now I know what 99 percent of the animals feel like, w/o having a thumb."

Spoken like someone who has plenty of them.

[TD 21]

He averaged as many rebounds as Perkins last season, in the same amount of time, while scoring more than him. They're basically even in DWS (Perk up by 0.4), where Jermain is a much better offensive player.
I agree he's injury prone though.

The stats may not bear it out (they don't always do so with a player like Perkins, a la Bowen), but he's a more valuable player than either of the O'Neal's, given where they're all at in their respective careers.



Rondo, Allen, West.
I suspect Lebron will play some point in Miami also, like he did in Cleveland. Which would make a Lebron/Wade/Miller back court better.

And there's backcourts such as Bibby/Johnson/Crawford, Curry/Ellis/Bell, Miller/Roy/Bayless, Nash/Richardson/Childress that are arguably as good.

I still rank ours over those, but it's not that clear cut anymore. We'll see how Tony comes back.You can argue Rondo over Parker, but Ginobili easily trumps Allen and Hill is better than West and the potential is there for that gap to widen this season. Actually, West is a good comparison for Hill. Hill is like a more athletic version.

James is a forward with guard like skills. He's still a forward, though.

Bell? Are you serious? I've always liked Bibby, but he's been reduced to mostly a spot up shooter at this point in his career. Bayless hasn't proven a thing yet.

It is clear cut.


Let's see... Duncan is Duncan, and even on the decline, he's still very effective. No doubt there. I love Blair, and he never stops being relentless, plus he looks committed and his energy will definitely help hiding his lack of size. I'm a believer there. The starting bigs look good.
Dice is still good when he decides to play, which lately is pretty much the playoffs. I don't have a problem with that. My only question is if he's getting too long in the tooth, and what happens if he can't flip the switch anymore when we need him (like Horry's last season). Time will tell. After that, we need to talk about potential. I mean, Tiago has played exactly zero minutes of NBA ball. He has spent 3 months, if that, with his new teammates and coach. Plus he's already banged up. I don't know what to tell you about him. I have more questions than certainties. Bonner, as far as defense goes, is useless, IMO. He should be at this spot, 5th big, and play situational minutes. Unfortunately, being that we're mostly an old team and we're going to need to rest our vets, and that Tiago is a big question mark at this point, I can easily see him being the 4th or even 3rd big. Which IMO is a bad sign as far our interior defense goes.Fair concern about McDyess, but he didn't show any signs last season of that. Sure, he was underwhelming throughout much of the regular season, particularly the early part, but as many suspected, he was merely pacing himself. With guys like that, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Meaning: Until he shows he can't play anymore, I'm not going to predict he can't.

There's no logical reason to think Splitter won't be a solid player from day one. Do we know for certain? Of course not. We also don't know for certain that Duncan or Ginobili won't fall off a cliff next season, but we can make an educated guess and presume they'll be somewhere around where they were last season. We can do the same with Splitter.

Regular season Bonner might be that. Playoffs, I'd be surprised if (though this is somewhat dependent on match-ups) Duncan, McDyess and Splitter aren't the top three bigs. That is a solid defensive trio.


I'm just looking at the amount of minutes most top perimeter players play these days (which are the kind of players you would need to throw a stopper at). You will rarely see Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, etc play less than 35-32 mins. I'm not saying you need a stopper all the time with those guys, but even if you cut it by 1/3, it's still 20 mins. There's a reason Bowen averaged 30+ mpg for us on our peak years when he basically had just that role. Sure, we're more talented offensively now, but I can't think you can cut that more than 1/3 and still be effective.T. Allen.


It was a combination of both getting Billups, and jettisoning Iverson.
It really was addressing a need for that team, because the raw talent was always there, but there was no brain behind the wheel.
For example, Iverson shot more than Carmelo that last season he was there. Billups instead took second seat, let Carmelo be the star, and gave that team a floor general to better use guys like JR Smith, who has a lot of talent, but is a mental midget. The fact that they also picked up the Birdman and shored up their defensive depth on the interior didn't hurt either.What about the Suns?


You've been trying to play this card for 3 posts now, and the only one to bring up the sweep has been you. You can go back and look up my posts in last season's preseason (way before the sweep), and you'll read the exact same reservations about the state of our defense in general, and the role of guys like Bonner or Finley in particular.That's not true. Others have.


I don't have a magic ball. I don't know if there's going to be injuries or trades that will change what the team looks like compared to right now.
I don't know how Tiago is going to look. I don't know what Anderson will bring to the table. Will they be great or busts? Too many unanswered questions.

Maybe you already know how everything will play out... :rolleyes

Some of us don't, and are not ready to proclaim this team a contender in October, but are also not ready to write them off in October. Maybe we need a dozen or so games to see what this team really looks like.

And while we're talking about looking like an idiot, pretending that people stop doing something on a forum just because you say so is actually pretty high up there in the retarded department.So you're not ready to proclaim them a contender, but you're ready to insinuate they're not, all the while reserving the right to call them a contender in case they make you look like an idiot? Got it.