GM Volt fuel economy not so great

[DarrinS]

Popular Mechanics




Fuel Economy

In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway.




Yippie!



For comparison, this NON-hybrid car got over 50 mpg more than 20 years ago.


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2010/autos/1006/gallery.top_mpg_since_1984/images/2_1986_honda_civic_crx_hf2.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Popular Mechanics




Yippie!



For comparison, this NON-hybrid car got over 50 mpg more than 20 years ago.


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2010/autos/1006/gallery.top_mpg_since_1984/images/2_1986_honda_civic_crx_hf2.jpg


Fuel Economy

In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway.

Shocker. :sleep

[DarrinS]

Shocker. :sleep


Sounds like you didn't read the entire thing. They also accounted for distance traveled using the battery.

[coyotes_geek]

So what's the point here?

[RandomGuy]

Sounds like you didn't read the entire thing. They also accounted for distance traveled using the battery.

You are correct. That is what I get for taking anti-histimine.

I missed that part.

Critical question time Darrin.

What is your conclusion based on the article?

What do you think it means?

[MannyIsGod]

Whats the fuel economy when running on batteries? How long do they last? Can you reasonably operate the car on a regular basis without anything but battery power?

[RandomGuy]

So what's the point here?

I believe Darrin is implying that these cars won't get as good a gas mileage as everybody thinks.

He is missing a rather vital piece of information that will fatally wound that thesis.

Let's see if he attempts to make his case first, or if he knows that fatal flaw already and is just passing on propaganda, as I am sure some conserva-blog told him to.

[RandomGuy]

hints hints

Shhhh.

Give the man enough to hoist him by. (evil grin)

I doubt he thought it through yet.

[CosmicCowboy]

Whats the fuel economy when running on batteries? How long do they last? Can you reasonably operate the car on a regular basis without anything but battery power?

I believe I read the Volt can only go 40 miles on a charge (with new/fresh batteries) That would work for someone with a reasonable to/from work commute.

[MannyIsGod]

How does it charge? Plug in or self generating? If its plug in then as long as you drive less than 40 miles between charges you would exponentially increase your fuel economy.

[ElNono]

For comparison, this NON-hybrid car got over 50 mpg more than 20 years ago.


The Volt has a 149 HP electric motor on it, while that Honda CRX has a 58 HP engine on it.

Not surprised that you're comparing oranges to apples, but if you actually match the power output, the Volt is undeniably much more efficient.

[ElNono]

Heck, the gas engine that feeds the generator on the Volt put out more HP (74) than the Honda's engine (58).

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, so CC is right, 40 miles before charging. Most Americans don't commute more than 40 miles per day. Charge is done by plugging in, therefor you could go a very very long time before you even need to kick in anything but battery power.

Fuel economy is going to be very dependent on individual driving habits therefor rendering Darrin's OP meaningless.

[ElNono]

How does it charge? Plug in or self generating? If its plug in then as long as you drive less than 40 miles between charges you would exponentially increase your fuel economy.

It's a plug in, but it also has a built in 1.4 L gas engine hooked to a generator to extend the range.

[CosmicCowboy]

How does it charge? Plug in or self generating? If its plug in then as long as you drive less than 40 miles between charges you would exponentially increase your fuel economy.

No argument on the efficiency if you can stomach the $40,000 price tag for an econo-box and the $10,000 to replace the batteries after the 100,000 mile warranty runs out.

[baseline bum]

Sounds like you didn't read the entire thing. They also accounted for distance traveled using the battery.

How much total distance was travelled in their test?

[RandomGuy]

How does it charge? Plug in or self generating? If its plug in then as long as you drive less than 40 miles between charges you would exponentially increase your fuel economy.

Man, you aren't letting him hang himself.

That is the very obvious rejoinder, to everybody, it seems, except him.

If you make no trips for an entire year that is less than the battery range and are concientious about recharging, then your gas mileage is essentially infinite.

Intriging thing about electric cars is the ready solution to charging the things, PV panels backed up by the electrical grid.

Imagine a parking garage capped by a good PV array, or for that matter, a lot of covered parking.

[ElNono]

Purposely missing from the same Popular Mechanics study:

"As for the rather unremarkable fuel economy, it's useful to remember that the Volt carries two powertrains—electric and gas—and thus suffers a weight penalty that effects overall efficiency. But of course, those two powertrains are why the Volt can be a primary vehicle that doesn't ask the owner to compromise driving cycles like a pure EV. Consider the Volt a well-engineered first step on the path to electrified vehicles."

[4>0rings]

Popular Mechanics




Yippie!



For comparison, this NON-hybrid car got over 50 mpg more than 20 years ago.


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2010/autos/1006/gallery.top_mpg_since_1984/images/2_1986_honda_civic_crx_hf2.jpg
That tin can doesn't have to meet modern safety and envoirnment requirements. You're also asking a newer technology to surpass another of the same platform that has had over a century of r and d.

I had a CRX HF for a year or 2. It would get over 50mpg on the highway. When ever I put gas in it, I could never remember when I had put gas in it before.

Give it another 10 years and this won't even be an arguement.

This is more than just about fuel economy, it's about placing a useable energy source in control of the country that uses it. The more we can use electricity to power vehicles and be self suficient, the less foreign countires have control over America.

[MannyIsGod]

No argument on the efficiency if you can stomach the $40,000 price tag for an econo-box and the $10,000 to replace the batteries after the 100,000 mile warranty runs out.

Definitely not for me but it definitely is efficent.

[RandomGuy]

No argument on the efficiency if you can stomach the $40,000 price tag for an econo-box and the $10,000 to replace the batteries after the 100,000 mile warranty runs out.

That is a good point.

10,000/60 = 166.67

If those batteries replace $166.67 dollars of gasoline per month over 5 years, then you have paid for them.

That is roughly 10 cents per mile. The equivalent of a gasoline powered car with 30 MPG at 3.00 per gallon.

That assumes that gas price increases do not exceed inflation.

If they do, then the calculus starts shifting to the vehicle, as you start making up the purchase cost.

[CosmicCowboy]

Definitely not for me but it definitely is efficent.For an urban commuter the Leaf is a much better choice. Ten Grand cheaper and 100 mile (battery only) range.

[RandomGuy]

Intriging thing about electric cars is the ready solution to charging the things, PV panels backed up by the electrical grid.

Imagine a parking garage capped by a good PV array, or for that matter, a lot of covered parking.

By the by, those panels don't have to be re-imported every year.

[ElNono]

No argument on the efficiency if you can stomach the $40,000 price tag for an econo-box and the $10,000 to replace the batteries after the 100,000 mile warranty runs out.

Or 3 to 5 years... That's how long LI-ION lifetime is...

That said, this is the kind of development you need to advance the field if we're ever to start moving away from gas. An actual commercial product, produced in quantity that's relatively affordable.

[CosmicCowboy]

By the by, those panels don't have to be re-imported every year. Just after the next hail storm :p:

[RandomGuy]

For an urban commuter the Leaf is a much better choice. Ten Grand cheaper and 100 mile (battery only) range.

I would agree.

[RandomGuy]

Just after the next hail storm :p:

Yup.

That thought occurred to me as I was typing it. I honestly don't know how much hail affects PV, but would be interested in finding out.

[Drachen]

Sounds like you didn't read the entire thing. They also accounted for distance traveled using the battery.

Well, I read the whole thing and it seems like you don't get the point of the car. If used the way it was meant it will get ∞ miles per gallon of gasoline. The "charge sustainer mode" is a luxury, one which probably doesn't get used that often in practice.

[Wild Cobra]

Ok, so CC is right, 40 miles before charging. Most Americans don't commute more than 40 miles per day. Charge is done by plugging in, therefor you could go a very very long time before you even need to kick in anything but battery power.

Fuel economy is going to be very dependent on individual driving habits therefor rendering Darrin's OP meaningless.
Hmmm....

If someone will pay such an exuberant amount of money who travels only 30 miles per day, how much money are they saving in fuel? Maybe I should say, how much money are they wasting in the extra cost, to get save a 1/4 gallon a day in fuel? If we figure they save $300 a year in fuel savings, how many years does it take to make the car pay for itself vs. a car that uses just 1/4 gallon a day more?

[MannyIsGod]

Obviously if you're looking to save money the Chevy Volt is not a good option. That means nothing in terms of its efficiency, however.

If you're looking to save the most money on a vehicle + gas usage then you should be looking at vehicles such as the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit. Both are in the low teens brand new and have very respectable gas mileage figures. If you bought a Prius or an Insight you would have to drive a very long distance before the gas savings would surpass the difference in price between vehicles.

[Drachen]

Obviously if you're looking to save money the Chevy Volt is not a good option. That means nothing in terms of its efficiency, however.

If you're looking to save the most money on a vehicle + gas usage then you should be looking at vehicles such as the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit. Both are in the low teens brand new and have very respectable gas mileage figures. If you bought a Prius or an Insight you would have to drive a very long distance before the gas savings would surpass the difference in price between vehicles.

Actually I think the Insight is only around 18k

[MannyIsGod]

Actually I think the Insight is only around 18k

And the Fit and Yaris are much cheaper and have very good gas mileage. How many miles would you have to drive in order to make up 5 thousand dollars in gas savings?

2010 MSRP on an Insight starts at 19800 and it gets 41mpg

The Fit starts at 14900 and it gets 31mpg.

For every 500 miles driven, the Insight uses 12.2 gallons of gas and the Fit uses 16.13. At 3.00 a gallon the Inisight goes 500 miles for 36.60 dollars and the Fit costs 48.39.

In other words, the Insight saves you 11.79 dollars per 500 miles driven. Assuming base models and a price difference of 4900 dollars, you need to drive 207,803 miles before you recoup the price difference in gas savings.

With gas cheaper than 3 dollars per gallon this obviously takes longer.

[ElNono]

Hmmm....

If someone will pay such an exuberant amount of money who travels only 30 miles per day, how much money are they saving in fuel? Maybe I should say, how much money are they wasting in the extra cost, to get save a 1/4 gallon a day in fuel?

If you're driving under 40 miles, you use 0 gallons of gas. I'm not sure what gas car you're comparing to that does 120 miles per gallon.

[MannyIsGod]

Damn I didn't even catch that. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

If you're driving under 40 miles, you use 0 gallons of gas. I'm not sure what gas car you're comparing to that does 120 miles per gallon.
This is true, but there is still the electrical cost. What would that be? Please refresh my memory, I forget what it is. Now if that 120 MPG is correct for cost comparison, and you only get 30 miles of that... Now remember, the batteries lose capacity over time...

Anyway, when you limit yourself to 30 miles at maybe $0.75 a day rather than $3 a day, is around $1000 savings annually still worth it?

[ElNono]

This is true, but there is still the electrical cost. What would that be?

I have no idea. I was merely pointing out the fallacy of your proposition. Namely the 1/4 gallon figure.


Please refresh my memory, I forget what it is. Now if that 120 MPG is correct for cost comparison, and you only get 30 miles of that... Now remember, the batteries lose capacity over time...

Actually, it's 40 miles on electric alone, so that's 160 MPG on this supposed comparison vehicle. Obviously, since you said the person drives 30 miles, I took that figure instead.


Anyway, when you limit yourself to 30 miles at maybe $0.75 a day rather than $3 a day, is around $1000 savings annually still worth it?

Well, it depends on what this person had before. Since it seems that this person is driving a car that can do a 120 mpg, I don't think it's going to make much sense for him.

[boutons_deux]

I rather have a Jetta TDi or similar 4-cyl diesel that Asians and Euros sell overseas, but sell only as gas in USA. 40 - 50 mpg, sometimes more, no $5K - $10K battery replacement.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, it depends on what this person had before. Since it seems that this person is driving a car that can do a 120 mpg, I don't think it's going to make much sense for him.
Or anyone for that matter. Once you go past 30 or 40 miles, you are using fuel again. At only 10 MPG at best, better than other similar sized cars, is the savings in fuel cost effective at all? I haven't even addressed battery replacement like was mentioned in this thread, although I have in other threads.

[ElNono]

Or anyone for that matter. Once you go past 30 or 40 miles, you are using fuel again. At only 10 MPG at best, better than other similar sized cars, is the savings in fuel cost effective at all? I haven't even addressed battery replacement like was mentioned in this thread, although I have in other threads.

I thought this person only drove 30 miles a day.

But nevertheless, perhaps the target for these vehicles is not necessarily fuel cost savings. I mean, I see plenty of soccer moms driving Hummers that are completely unconcerned with that.

I personally wouldn't buy one of these right now.
I think the tech is a good starter to get the R&D done and proven to work, and the infrastructure necessary in place in case some oil suppliers decide to take us for ransom in their artificial supply/demand 'futures' game.

I think the same people that bitched about not having the infrastructure to move to an alternative energy for vehicles when the gas was $4+ a gallon should be pleased with these developments.

[boutons_deux]

"some oil suppliers decide to take us for ransom"

probably 50% of the price of oil is due to commodities traders, not the oilcos.

[boutons_deux]

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20019260-48.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[DMX7]

Good god, this thread failed hard.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the photovoltaic itself is just a particular type of semiconductor. its really the casing that is an issue when struck by hail.

[Drachen]

And the Fit and Yaris are much cheaper and have very good gas mileage. How many miles would you have to drive in order to make up 5 thousand dollars in gas savings?

2010 MSRP on an Insight starts at 19800 and it gets 41mpg

The Fit starts at 14900 and it gets 31mpg.

For every 500 miles driven, the Insight uses 12.2 gallons of gas and the Fit uses 16.13. At 3.00 a gallon the Inisight goes 500 miles for 36.60 dollars and the Fit costs 48.39.

In other words, the Insight saves you 11.79 dollars per 500 miles driven. Assuming base models and a price difference of 4900 dollars, you need to drive 207,803 miles before you recoup the price difference in gas savings.

With gas cheaper than 3 dollars per gallon this obviously takes longer.


You are right, I guess I should have been more specific that my problem with the post was putting a prius which (last I checked, admittedly wasn't recently) costs several thousand dollars more with an insight. Its not a big deal, your point still stands.

[RandomGuy]

Hmmm....

If someone will pay such an exuberant amount of money who travels only 30 miles per day, how much money are they saving in fuel? Maybe I should say, how much money are they wasting in the extra cost, to get save a 1/4 gallon a day in fuel? If we figure they save $300 a year in fuel savings, how many years does it take to make the car pay for itself vs. a car that uses just 1/4 gallon a day more?

That was painful to read. It hurt my accounting brain.

To see why, just map out the costs directly and put them side by side. Your 1/4 gallon assumption is erroneous, and if you take the time to map it out and put the detailed particulars down between the two options, you will see that.

[RandomGuy]

Now remember, the batteries lose capacity over time...


Is the loss of capacity a pure function of time, or a function of usage?

I.e. would two identical batteries off the assembly line have the same capacity after 5 years, if one was never used, and one was used in a vehicle driven 100,000 miles?

This becomes important in calculations for cost comparisons, because it forms the basis for some important assumptions required to complete the calculations.

[ElNono]

Is the loss of capacity a pure function of time, or a function of usage?

Time, charge and temperature. Here are some examples from Wiki:

A unit that is full most of the time at 25 °C (77 °F) irreversibly loses approximately 20% capacity per year. Poor ventilation may increase temperatures, further shortening battery life. Loss rates vary by temperature: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, and 15%, respectively

[Wild Cobra]

That was painful to read. It hurt my accounting brain.

To see why, just map out the costs directly and put them side by side. Your 1/4 gallon assumption is erroneous, and if you take the time to map it out and put the detailed particulars down between the two options, you will see that.
Yes, I don't know the full details of the car and based that raw guess on what others said. I didn't but hardly any effort into the issue. Maybe I should have posted everything in blue, to indicate how much I think of these types of cars at our level of technology.

[Wild Cobra]

Is the loss of capacity a pure function of time, or a function of usage?

I.e. would two identical batteries off the assembly line have the same capacity after 5 years, if one was never used, and one was used in a vehicle driven 100,000 miles?

This becomes important in calculations for cost comparisons, because it forms the basis for some important assumptions required to complete the calculations.

I can't say for sure. I know usage is a factor, but i think time is also. Normal batteries have a "shelf life." I think these do too, but I'm not going to bother to look. Ask ElNono. Seems to be up on this topic. I never tried to learn much of batteries, and some day their technology will completely catch me off guard.

[ElNono]

Actually, the tech is not that bad, and at some point you're going to need to do the R&D anyways. This is something companies like Toyota understood a long time ago.

That said, it would have made much more sense to use NiMH batteries than LI-ION.
It's a shame that Chevron/Texaco (of all companies) are using patents to boycott the tech.

For those unaware:

Stanford R. Ovshinsky invented and patented the NiMH battery and founded Ovonic Battery Company in 1982. General Motors purchased the patent from Ovonics in 1994. By the late 1990s, NiMH batteries were being used successfully in many fully electric vehicles, such as the General Motors EV1 and Dodge Caravan EPIC minivan. In October 2000, the patent was sold to Texaco and a week later Texaco was acquired by Chevron. Soon after this, the lack of availability of NiMH batteries became the deciding factor for the discontinuation of the American-Made electric vehicles. Chevron's Cobasys subsidiary will only provide these batteries to large OEM orders. The American EV manufacturers shut down their lines citing lack of battery availability as one of their chief obstacles. The Cobasys control of NiMH batteries has created a patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries.

[ElNono]

The irony here is also the lack of vision from GM, basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling the patent...

[101A]

Popular Mechanics




Yippie!



For comparison, this NON-hybrid car got over 50 mpg more than 20 years ago.


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2010/autos/1006/gallery.top_mpg_since_1984/images/2_1986_honda_civic_crx_hf2.jpg

Had a black Si version of that car ('87) - owned from '89 - '91. Black BBS wheels - absolute blast.

[LnGrrrR]

If someone will pay such an exuberant amount of money who travels only 30 miles per day, how much money are they saving in fuel? Maybe I should say, how much money are they wasting in the extra cost, to get save a 1/4 gallon a day in fuel? If we figure they save $300 a year in fuel savings, how many years does it take to make the car pay for itself vs. a car that uses just 1/4 gallon a day more?

I think it's more about using less gas than it is saving money.

[LnGrrrR]

DarrinS failed on multiple levels on this thread. I mean, when others fail, it's usually for one reason. Only DarrinS can fail so hard with so few words.