Bonner gets too many minutes for the Spurs to be successful

[SequSpur]

just said on TV.

Thank you.

[Sean Cagney]

never agreed more...........

[Ditty]

i have a big bonner

[Manu20]

Steve Smith knows basketball :toast

[The_Worlds_finest]

Sequ loves the bonner

[8FOR!3]

Bonner's going to get more minutes when 1. it's preseason and 2. Splitter's still out.

[ducks]

game thread



steve smith said if he was a 4 big he would be ok
more then a 4 big to many minutes

[SenorSpur]

Big :tu for reinforcing what many of us have been saying all along regarding Bonner.

Call it the law of diminishing returns.

[Mr. Body]

I don't know why this guy is even on the fucking team. Traded Rasho Nesterovic for easier contracts to get rid of and THEY RESIGNED THE FUCKING GUY.

[objective]

I don't know why this guy is even on the fucking team. Traded Rasho Nesterovic for easier contracts to get rid of and THEY RESIGNED THE FUCKING GUY.

twice

[alchemist]

I'm still in shock over the Spurs resigning the guy.

0.4
Scola.
Bonner.

nightmares

[yavozerb]

Bonner does what he is told...Pop says "go play" and bonner will do so. We may see more bonner if that was truly televised

[Rummpd]

Hopefully Splitter takes all his minutes and Dice was not there. Bonner needs to be frozen to the bench for the first 20 games and see what other bigs do.

[GSH]

I liked him as an energy guy off the bench. Come in, snatch a few boards, make a couple of 3's, change the momentum of the game. It's a valuable role. Some guys will consistently have 6 points and 3 boards after being in the game 5 minutes. Leave them in for 20 minutes, and they will still have 6 points and 3 boards.

I agree that too many minutes means that he's not being used that way, and it's a problem for the team. I still like having him on the team. But not for what the Spurs paid him. And not getting starter's minutes.

[TimDunkem]

Bonner doesn't even grab rebounds. He just runs around, fake hustling, pretending he's fighting on the class, but that fight usually consists of one swipe at the ball, and then he's off to the other end of the court to jack up bricks.

[yavozerb]

Bonner doesn't even grab rebounds. He just runs around, fake hustling, pretending he's fighting on the class, but that fight usually consists of one swipe at the ball, and then he's off to the other end of the court to jack up bricks.

I guess thats what it looks like to you since you probably only follow the box scores...Try watching some games

[TimDunkem]

I watch every game idiot. Everyone knows Bonner is a mediocre rebounder. Don't even try to pretend otherwise.

[yavozerb]

Bonner doesn't even grab rebounds. He just runs around, fake hustling, pretending he's fighting on the class, but that fight usually consists of one swipe at the ball, and then he's off to the other end of the court to jack up bricks.


I watch every game idiot. Everyone knows Bonner is a mediocre rebounder. Don't even try to pretend otherwise.

I agree that he is a below average rebounder, but you sound really stupid by saying he doesn't hustle (probably only manu plays harder)..Then you sound even dumber by saying he cannot shoot (40% 3 pt shooter for career).

[baseline bum]

Any minute Bonner gets is too many. I wish he'd just get fucking bought out.

[TimDunkem]

I agree that he is a below average rebounder, but you sound really stupid by saying he doesn't hustle (probably only manu plays harder)..Then you sound even dumber by saying he cannot shoot (40% 3 pt shooter for career).
Can you read? I'm talking about his rebounding. I never said he doesn't play hard, but he only grabs boards if they're right in front of his face. It's one place I feel he just doesn't play hard enough.

Perhaps he's just completely fucking incapable since I've seen the guy get boxed-out, and out-rebounded by PG's.

I never said he couldn't shoot either, but when it matters it IS pretty fucking terrible for a guy who get's paid millions to do just that. 31% in the playoffs is terrible, and isn't that what we're talking about here? The Spurs/Bonner ultimately being successful when he plays big minutes? Let's not forget that.

[koriwhat]

bonner was ridiculous last night with how many 3's he gave up. dude was open plenty of times, faked, and passed. fuckin' shoot it bitch!

[SenorSpur]

I'm so worn out on Bonner. From watching him be a sieve on the defensive end, to his goofy running around on the court, to his annual playoff choking. I was so glad Steve Smith offered his non-biased opinions on him during the telecast. Not that any of us Bonner critics needed to have our opinions validated, but it was good to hear anyway.

Because the Spurs FO made the monumental mistake, in my opinion, of resigning the guy, I realize he's NOT going anywhere. Therefore, I'm going to close my eyes, cross my fingers, and try and ignore his presence this season.

Hopefully, Pop will not force-feed him more than 25 mins or try and utlize him as a 4th big,

[yavozerb]

Bonner doesn't even grab rebounds. He just runs around, fake hustling, pretending he's fighting on the class, but that fight usually consists of one swipe at the ball, and then he's off to the other end of the court to jack up bricks.


Can you read? I'm talking about his rebounding. I never said he doesn't play hard, but he only grabs boards if they're right in front of his face. It's one place I feel he just doesn't play hard enough.

Perhaps he's just completely fucking incapable since I've seen the guy get boxed-out, and out-rebounded by PG's.

I never said he couldn't shoot either, but when it matters it IS pretty fucking terrible for a guy who get's paid millions to do just that. 31% in the playoffs is terrible, and isn't that what we're talking about here? The Spurs/Bonner ultimately being successful when he plays big minutes? Let's not forget that.

:lol...Can you not even remember your original post only minutes prior..:lol..
I get the point you do not like bonner, just say that then, its ok cause many others feel the sameway about Bonner. I agree that Bonner has not played very well in the playoffs, but that in no way makes him a bad shooter.

[Texas_Ranger]

Bonner should play 5 minutes per game...in a blowout.

[yavozerb]

Can we just change this title to Bonner Haters roll-call...

[ElNono]

Just like RJ, I believe Matt tries. That's not really the problem.
They're just not very good for what this team needs at this point in time from their positions.

[ElNono]

Can we just change this title to Bonner Haters roll-call...

Could you change your nickname to the Excuses Express?

[ElNono]

I agree that Bonner has not played very well in the playoffs, but that in no way makes him a bad shooter.

This is a false proposition.
Bonner is a shooting specialist. If he 'has not played very well in the playoffs' then he *IS* a bad shooter (at least in the playoffs).

[yavozerb]

This is a false proposition.
Bonner is a shooting specialist. If he 'has not played very well in the playoffs' then he *IS* a bad shooter (at least in the playoffs).

Any NBA player who has a career as long as Bonners and has shot as many 3 pt shots at a 40% clip is a good shooter. So for example, according to your logic players like mike miller, michael redd, and Kapono are bad shooters cause they have limited games played or simply not played in the playoffs? I have never said Bonner has played well in the playoffs, but that has no bearing on his status as an above average 3pt shooting NBA player.

[Chomag]

Any NBA player who has a career as long as Bonners and has shot as many 3 pt shots at a 40% clip is a good shooter. So for example, according to your logic players like mike miller, michael redd, and Kapono are bad shooters cause they have limited games played or simply not played in the playoffs? I have never said Bonner has played well in the playoffs, but that has no bearing on his status as an above average 3pt shooting NBA player.

Perhaps he isn't a bad shooter, but facts are facts and Bonner is useless come play-off time. Isn't that the production that what matters most? Well if your goal is not to be a career lottery type team that is.

[ElNono]

Any NBA player who has a career as long as Bonners and has shot as many 3 pt shots at a 40% clip is a good shooter.

Except that he doesn't shot at 40% when it matters. He shoots at 31%.
If you want to lay the claim that Matt Bonner is a good regular season shooting specialist, then I will agree with you. Unfortunately he's on a team with championship aspirations, who require their specialists to also play the playoffs.


So for example, according to your logic players like mike miller, michael redd, and Kapono are bad shooters cause they have limited games played or simply not played in the playoffs?

Strawman and bad examples to boot.

Mike Miller is the only example remotely similar (when it comes to percentages), and it's not even that close. His playoff resume only include stints with teams like ORL and MEM at times where neither team had any championship aspirations. This would be his first season where he's in a position where he actually would be contributing to a team seeking a title.

Michael Redd averages 38% from 3, he's far from being a one dimensional role player who can't even create his own shot, and the decline between regular season 3 point shooting and playoff shooting is half of that of Matt (he averages 34% from downtown in the playoffs).

And to top it all off, Jason Kapono is the exact opposite of Bonner. In his limited playoff experience, Kapono averages 54% shooting in the playoffs vs 44% in the regular season.

Ultimately, the fact that you have a larger sample size of subpar shooting for Matt that you do for any of these guys, it's actually more concrete evidence of Matt suckitude in playoff performance, not less.


I have never said Bonner has played well in the playoffs, but that has no bearing on his status as an above average 3pt shooting NBA player.

If his role would be limited to the regular season, I wouldn't have a problem. But it's not, and in order to get to the LOB you need to go through the playoffs. Such a sink in performance for a guy that's actually a specialist on that area is undeniably detrimental to a team with championship aspirations.

And this is only covering his shooting. When you weigh in that his defense is average at very best, there's very little reason to have the guy out there when he's stinking up the joint.

[jjktkk]

I have no problem if Bonner gets about 10 minutes a game, providing that he is hitting his 3's. With the continued development of Blair and the arrival of Splitter, Bonnner's mintues should go down. As most of us know, Bonner's lack of defensive prowess gets exposed if he logs too many minutes. But IMO, Bonner can be useful as a scoring option, coming in as a 4th big off the bench.

[hater]

Bonner is shit. Nothing else to say.

Bonner + RJ = Spurs failure

[yavozerb]

Ok, if you guys want to blame Bonner for all the playoff losses fine. But could you please post the overall team shooting percentages for the spurs during those losses (cause I gurantee he was not alone in having a bad performance during these games). Some of you guys act like the offense goes through bonner..I agree that his playing time should be limited to 10-15 minutes, but all this shit that he caused the spurs to lose in the playoffs is crap..Guy is strictly a role player that majority of the time he does very well.

Also, if you dont want to see bonner play then Blair better stay out of foul trouble (which he always seems to be in), Duncan better play more (which he wont), and Tiago better not keep getting injured (?)..Sometimes pop has no choice to play bonner like it or not

[DPG21920]

I wish you would stop posting the same stuff over and over. Looks like everyone on ST struck a nerve with you.

[jjktkk]

Ok, if you guys want to blame Bonner for all the playoff losses fine. But could you please post the overall team shooting percentages for the spurs during those losses (cause I gurantee he was not alone in having a bad performance during these games). Some of you guys act like the offense goes through bonner..I agree that his playing time should be limited to 10-15 minutes, but all this shit that he caused the spurs to lose in the playoffs is crap..Guy is strictly a role player that majority of the time he does very well.

Exactly. Bonner haters rag on him because of liabilities on defense. But because of the lack of depth at the 4 and 5 spots the past couple of seasons, Bonner has logged more minutes than he should. Which, of course, is not Bonner's fault. Like I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, Bonner can be productive coming off the bench to provide a scoring spark in a 10 to 15 minute a game role.

[ElNono]

Exactly. Bonner haters rag on him because of liabilities on defense. But because of the lack of depth at the 4 and 5 spots the past couple of seasons, Bonner has logged more minutes than he should. Which, of course, is not Bonner's fault. Like I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, Bonner can be productive coming off the bench to provide a scoring spark in a 10 to 15 minute a game role.

Last season we had Blair sitting in the bench watching Matt drop bricks. Depth wasn't necessarily the issue.

I agree with you that 'playing the 5th big role' wouldn't be THAT much of a problem (and really, before the Excuse Express showed up, that's what this thread was about), but unfortunately I've see no evidence whatsoever that give me the confidence he will be the 5th big in this team. And ultimately, as a fan of the team, I don't care if it's Matt's fault or whoever else. It hurts to team to overplay him on any other capacity.

[DPG21920]

But Yazo is right. It is not Bonner's fault the Spur keeping giving him money and putting him in positions to fail.

But that does not mean that fans won't get pissed when he is on the floor. Bottom line is regardless of who is at fault, most believe that Bonner's negatives outweigh his positives.

[objective]

Last season we had Blair sitting in the bench watching Matt drop bricks. Depth wasn't necessarily the issue.



Correct. Blair was the one who was stunning in the regular season and came up big when needed. Blair was the one with the 20+/20+ night when Duncan was down. Blair was the one who had an incredible 1st half at Sacramento to pull the team up. Blair was the one who almost single-handedly kept the Spurs in a game with the Celtics. And so many other games where Blair stepped up.

Blair's reward was watching Bonner do his Bonner routine and now Channing Frye is a rich man thanks to how good he looked compared to Bonner.

The Bonner Brigade doesn't care about what actually happened on the court or impartial evidence. They only care about making excuses, talking up what a great regular season % shooter he is, mistaking activity for achievement, proclaiming how awesome he would be in 15 minute bunches, and getting the vapors when anyone points out his shortcomings.

[SenorSpur]

Correct. Blair was the one who was stunning in the regular season and came up big when needed. Blair was the one with the 20+/20+ night when Duncan was down. Blair was the one who had an incredible 1st half at Sacramento to pull the team up. Blair was the one who almost single-handedly kept the Spurs in a game with the Celtics. And so many other games where Blair stepped up.

Blair's reward was watching Bonner do his Bonner routine and now Channing Frye is a rich man thanks to how good he looked compared to Bonner.

The Bonner Brigade doesn't care about what actually happened on the court or impartial evidence. They only care about making excuses, talking up what a great regular season % shooter he is, mistaking activity for achievement, proclaiming how awesome he would be in 15 minute bunches, and getting the vapors when anyone points out his shortcomings.

:bang

[z0sa]

Blair needs more time than Bonner, for many reasons, his growth into a team and league staple not the least of them. I think we can all agree there.

However, it's sheer tomfoolery asserting Bonner isn't a fine bench player in 15-18 mins a night, or an above average shooter.

[TJastal]

Blair's reward was watching Bonner do his Bonner routine and now Channing Frye is a rich man thanks to how good he looked compared to Bonner.

:lmao

Another objective classic.

[SequSpur]

lots of good takes here...hmmm...maybe spurstalk is starting to come around...:D

[yavozerb]

Blair needs more time than Bonner, for many reasons, his growth into a team and league staple not the least of them. I think we can all agree there.

However, it's sheer tomfoolery asserting Bonner isn't a fine bench player in 15-18 mins a night, or an above average shooter.

Much agreed with this take and I believe he will...Only way I do not see this happening is if Blairs defense does not get better or he simply gets into foul trouble.

[ShoogarBear]

just said on TV.

Thank you.

That's it? That's all you got?

Sequ gets too many posts for SpursTalk to be successful.

[Cessation]

Bonner is very bad, only good for 15 min a game, at best.

[TimDunkem]

:lol...Can you not even remember your original post only minutes prior..:lol..
I get the point you do not like bonner, just say that then, its ok cause many others feel the sameway about Bonner. I agree that Bonner has not played very well in the playoffs, but that in no way makes him a bad shooter.
Were you too busy laughing to finish reading my post? When I said he fake-hustles, I meant on the boards, when I said he throws up bricks, I meant when it matters,(and clarified it for you) like in the playoffs. If you still can't understand then I'm sorry.

[Chucho]

I wouldn't mind if Bonner fell down a mineshaft.

































I would mind if someone bothered to rescue him.

[DeadlyDynasty]

There are still a couple Bonner defenders out there?

http://coppermine.styggforden.se/albums/kul/20080806/normal_Desapir_-_Holy_Shit.jpg

[jjktkk]

Last season we had Blair sitting in the bench watching Matt drop bricks. Depth wasn't necessarily the issue.

I agree with you that 'playing the 5th big role' wouldn't be THAT much of a problem (and really, before the Excuse Express showed up, that's what this thread was about), but unfortunately I've see no evidence whatsoever that give me the confidence he will be the 5th big in this team. And ultimately, as a fan of the team, I don't care if it's Matt's fault or whoever else. It hurts to team to overplay him on any other capacity.

Agree.

[androck]

I don't see what the big fuss is about. He is an average NBA player making average NBA money (for his height and ability to spread the floor) and his MPG went from 24 to 18 last season and will continue to go down this season as Blair picks up more minutes and Tiago joined the team. He knows the system and will hopefully eat up minutes during the regular season to keep Tim and McDyess on the bench as much as possible until the playoffs. Not everyone on the roster is going to be an All-Star. It's not like we signed Rudy Gay to a max contract and Bonner still makes less than Darko.

[ChuckD]

He plays because his effective FG% is north of 60%. I'll explain that, for the basketball retarded. If a big hulking space eating Center shoots 60% and takes 100 shots, he scores 120 points by making 60 of the 100 shots. If Bonner shoots his customary 40% from downtown on 100 shots, guess what? He scores 120 points AND spaces the floor for T,T, and M, unlike your hulking paint brute who clogs the lane.

His game has warts, don't get me wrong, but to call him useless is as stupid as Ghost Writer calling Bowen the worst starting SF in the league, year after year. If you're smart enough to figure out that 3 point marksmanship is what keeps Bonner on the floor, then you have your answer as to why Gist won't make the team.

[ElNono]

He plays because his effective FG% is north of 60%. I'll explain that, for the basketball retarded. If a big hulking space eating Center shoots 60% and takes 100 shots, he scores 120 points by making 60 of the 100 shots. If Bonner shoots his customary 40% from downtown on 100 shots, guess what? He scores 120 points AND spaces the floor for T,T, and M, unlike your hulking paint brute who clogs the lane.

His eFG% in the playoffs is currently 45.5%...

Here's the closest I could match comparatively, in the playoffs (at least 20 games, 300 mins):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=6XiGQ

And while you're peeking at that advanced stats table, check out Offensive/Defensive Winning Shares and PER...

So, the guy can perform during the regular season. No doubt about it.
The problem is that only his production, not his minutes, go down during the playoffs.

Sorry Chuck, I'll take the hulking paint brute for the playoffs.

[thOOdee]

He plays because his effective FG% is north of 60%. I'll explain that, for the basketball retarded. If a big hulking space eating Center shoots 60% and takes 100 shots, he scores 120 points by making 60 of the 100 shots. If Bonner shoots his customary 40% from downtown on 100 shots, guess what? He scores 120 points AND spaces the floor for T,T, and M, unlike your hulking paint brute who clogs the lane.

His game has warts, don't get me wrong, but to call him useless is as stupid as Ghost Writer calling Bowen the worst starting SF in the league, year after year. If you're smart enough to figure out that 3 point marksmanship is what keeps Bonner on the floor, then you have your answer as to why Gist won't make the team.

comparing bowen to bonner is ridiculous. I get where you are coming from, but a low output for offense means shit when the man your guarding (usually an all-star efficient scorer) goes 4/12 ala bowen. When bonner locks down on the garnets and CHRIS BOSHS of the nba, I wouldn't care even if he did make only 1 of the many bricks come playoff time.

[thOOdee]

before the spurs game the other day, one of the commenters mentioned that everything that is counted should not always be what counts and what counts is not always counted. thought to think about when looking at bonners 3 pt%.

[ChuckD]

His eFG% in the playoffs is currently 45.5%...

Here's the closest I could match comparatively, in the playoffs (at least 20 games, 300 mins):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=6XiGQ

And while you're peeking at that advanced stats table, check out Offensive/Defensive Winning Shares and PER...

So, the guy can perform during the regular season. No doubt about it.
The problem is that only his production, not his minutes, go down during the playoffs.

Sorry Chuck, I'll take the hulking paint brute for the playoffs.

In his first two seasons, he got to play a grand total of 11 playoff games, but played less than 5 minutes per contest. Not much to go on there.

Against Dallas in 09, he sucked, but then again, there was no Manu, and Tim was playing on one leg. Everyone was being asked to do more, and that's not his role.

Last summer in 10 playoff games, he shot 43% overall and 37% from downtown in 17 minutes, playing off the stars. I'll take that over the hulking brute clogging the paint.

He is a ROLE PLAYER, and I don't think some of you know what that fucking means.

[AussieFanKurt]

Spurs will win number 5 from bonners hands

[Leonard Curse]

agree i was so happy to hear the nba tv crew bring that out and put coach pop on the spotlight. he needs someone to embarass him or stand up to him and let him know!! ?

did you guys know the reason why he started talking about taking the regular season (playoff standings) so seriously is because manu called him out? my brother told me about an article he found and it said manu told pop (after they lost) in a round about way that he wanted to play good in the post, but felt that they needed to start the season well also and thought they should take it more seriously.

i thought that was really awesome and when it comes to bonner i think it helps that nba analysts (especially retired players/coaches) call pop out on such mindless decisions

[z0sa]

In his first two seasons, he got to play a grand total of 11 playoff games, but played less than 5 minutes per contest. Not much to go on there.

Against Dallas in 09, he sucked, but then again, there was no Manu, and Tim was playing on one leg. Everyone was being asked to do more, and that's not his role.

Last summer in 10 playoff games, he shot 43% overall and 37% from downtown in 17 minutes, playing off the stars. I'll take that over the hulking brute clogging the paint.

He is a ROLE PLAYER, and I don't think some of you know what that fucking means.

Although I can't be sure of whether I'd choose Bonner or a hulking brute at this point (based on the brute, of course), you've made a very solid point, one we few Bonner defenders have gone blue in the face over: Bonner doesn't put himself out there, Pop does. He plays to the best of his abilities, and it's actually not too bad. His clumsy, nerdy nature and T-Rex run seem to have blinded people to the fact he does produce about what is expected.

I do agree he has had his troubles in the playoffs, but he's a late bloomer in that regard - these last two playoffs have seen him go from enduring none of the pressure to a substantial portion. It takes less talented players time and experience before they can adjust.

I saw flashes of a very good Bonner off the bench last season, and I think that's where his best role ultimately lies. I'm quite interested in seeing how Splitter, Blair, and Bonner take on their forthcoming opportunities.

[Leonard Curse]

In his first two seasons, he got to play a grand total of 11 playoff games, but played less than 5 minutes per contest. Not much to go on there.

Against Dallas in 09, he sucked, but then again, there was no Manu, and Tim was playing on one leg. Everyone was being asked to do more, and that's not his role.

Last summer in 10 playoff games, he shot 43% overall and 37% from downtown in 17 minutes, playing off the stars. I'll take that over the hulking brute clogging the paint.

He is a ROLE PLAYER, and I don't think some of you know what that fucking means.

didnt he start for almost a whole season? i think it was 2 yrs ago! your preaching to the choir my friend i think hes great in limited minutes in uncrucial minutes but he is played in the strangest times like when we need a defensive stop or when the guy hes replacing is on a major streak during the playoffs!!

theres a reason why 99% of spurs fans think hes played too much, i agree with a previous poster above who said:theres players who will score a good amount of pts when played for 8 minutes and when you leave them in for 20 they will average about the same.

so it realy makes no sense to keep them in there for so long especially when we have tiago splitter i for one will be furious if he is played as much as past seasons

[ElNono]

In his first two seasons, he got to play a grand total of 11 playoff games, but played less than 5 minutes per contest. Not much to go on there.

Against Dallas in 09, he sucked, but then again, there was no Manu, and Tim was playing on one leg. Everyone was being asked to do more, and that's not his role.

Doing more is not his role? He had no problem doing more in the regular season that year.


Last summer in 10 playoff games, he shot 43% overall and 37% from downtown in 17 minutes, playing off the stars. I'll take that over the hulking brute clogging the paint.

Except that he was 3-11 (27%) from downtown in the Dallas series, and started off 0-4 against the Suns in the first two games. His percentages shot up only because he was 3-4 (75%) and 2-3 (66%, in 30 mins!) in the last two games.

To put it in context, he shot substantially above his average in 2 out of 8 playoff games, and well below in the other 8.


He is a ROLE PLAYER, and I don't think some of you know what that fucking means.

He's a shooting specialist that can't shoot when it matters. Ultimately, as others have said, the fact that he's out there for 20+ minutes is not necessarily his fault, but it undeniably hurts the team.

As a 5th big playing 10 min spots, I don't really have a problem with him. But that hasn't really been his role, and I have no indications thats going to be this season either.

[z0sa]

Ultimately, as others have said, the fact that he's out there for 20+ minutes is not necessarily his fault, but it undeniably hurts the team.

:rolleyes

[benefactor]

To make those last two playoff games of the Phoenix series in SA even more useless for him, he had a whopping 4 rebounds in 49 minutes of play...including ZERO defensive rebounds in game 3.

This pretty personifies his uselessness.

[ElNono]

:rolleyes

Sorry z0sa, but it's true. If truly there is one more shot or two at a championship while TD is around, guys like him that can't produce when it matters are part of the problem, not the solution.

If, for example, taking 3 shots in 30 minutes of a elimination playoff game is what's expected of him, he can go do that for the Grizzlies. And before you go there, I know it's not his fault he played that long, but since Pop isn't going anywhere, the only solution is to jettison the player. This is really not that different from the latter Finley, with the exception that Fin didn't regularly play the 4/5 spot (except for the failure that was small ball), and wasn't the last line of defense, like Bonner is.

[z0sa]

It's a matter of opinion. Just because most think it's "undeniably true" doesn't mean it verifiably is. He can still redeem himself; this is a big year for him, and the Spurs.

And I wouldn't compare his situation to the epic Pop lovefest with Finley. Pop has a calculated gameplan and for a while now, Bonner has played a considerable part of it. I have agreed he has ultimately underachieved in the playoffs, and for a role player of his type and caliber, that's not good. But I really only draw from last season when I say that; 09 was a nightmare, and the game we won, he did well. It is what it is. I expect him to be a phenomenal bench player this season, not more.

[Chomag]

Some passionate Bonner supporters we have here. I'm sorry but Bonner has failed so many times when it matters most that it can not be considered a fluke. What will be the excuses for him this year I wonder?

Spurs had there chance to finally move away from the Bonner to be Horry experiment this off-season but for some reason they were to scared to make that move..

[superbigtime]

I remember Pop using the phrase Horry replacement for Bonner. Just as he is trying to find a Bowen replacement. You can't replace key players. You have to develop the new ones. It's called coaching. Fucking Pop.

Pop will look like a genius though if he limits Bonner to max 15 minutes and Bonner actually plays well. I'm not holding my breath though. I think Bonner plays hard, he's just not that good. I understand he's just a role player, but there's no arguing that for his liabilities he is way overplayed. Bonner did sustain a significant injury last yr though, and I think that is overlooked by alot of his critics.

Bottom line is he shouldn't be overplayed if other bigs (blair, tiago) or shooters (simmons) are healthy.

Wouldn't mind at all if Steve Smith was an assistant. Heck, he might even be better than Jacque Vaughn! No that's not possible.

[Thomas82]

Just like RJ, I believe Matt tries. That's not really the problem.
They're just not very good for what this team needs at this point in time from their positions.

That's the best way to put it.

[ElNono]

It's a matter of opinion. Just because most think it's "undeniably true" doesn't mean it verifiably is. He can still redeem himself; this is a big year for him, and the Spurs.

And I wouldn't compare his situation to the epic Pop lovefest with Finley. Pop has a calculated gameplan and for a while now, Bonner has played a considerable part of it. I have agreed he has ultimately underachieved in the playoffs, and for a role player of his type and caliber, that's not good. But I really only draw from last season when I say that; 09 was a nightmare, and the game we won, he did well. It is what it is. I expect him to be a phenomenal bench player this season, not more.

Well, I'm fully aware he's staying and most likely playing.
The clock is ticking as far as the Duncan era goes. There's some real urgency for getting things done, and everyone will need to step up their games if we're to hoist another LOB before it's over.
Let's just hope he plays the limited role that his limited skills provide.

[DrSteffo]

Shit this thread just makes me miss Horry and another thread just makes me miss Bowen. I just hope the the new guys can get my hopes up again. Splitter FTW or whatever.

[yavozerb]

Some passionate Bonner supporters we have here. I'm sorry but Bonner has failed so many times when it matters most that it can not be considered a fluke. What will be the excuses for him this year I wonder?

Spurs had there chance to finally move away from the Bonner to be Horry experiment this off-season but for some reason they were to scared to make that move..

I think we all agree on Bonner being below average at rebounding, but here are some stats fro 3pt shooting on last season playoff run. ya, it really looks like Bonner choked. He was only 3% below his season total and only played 17mpg. I posted this stat only cause 3 pt shooting is what he gets paid for and to be honest he didnt do all that bad.

3pt shooting
Manu= 33%
Hill=37%
rj= 20%
mason=14%
Bonner= 37%
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs

[z0sa]

I think we all agree on Bonner being below average at rebounding, but here are some stats fro 3pt shooting on last season playoff run. ya, it really looks like Bonner choked. He was only 3% below his season total and only played 17mpg. I posted this stat only cause 3 pt shooting is what he gets paid for and to be honest he didnt do all that bad.

3pt shooting
Manu= 33%
Hill=37%
rj= 20%
mason=14%
Bonner= 37%
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs

Mason 14%, RJ 20% :depressed

[jjktkk]

As a 5th big playing 10 min spots, I don't really have a problem with him. But that hasn't really been his role, and I have no indications thats going to be this season either.

Better bigmen depth, with the improvement of Blair and the arrival of Splitter, should cut into Bonner's minutes. Thats 2 indications.

[underdawg]

I think we all agree on Bonner being below average at rebounding, but here are some stats fro 3pt shooting on last season playoff run. ya, it really looks like Bonner choked. He was only 3% below his season total and only played 17mpg. I posted this stat only cause 3 pt shooting is what he gets paid for and to be honest he didnt do all that bad.

3pt shooting
Manu= 33%
Hill=37%
rj= 20%
mason=14%
Bonner= 37%
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs

in order for this team to be successful with boner playing significant minutes, his 3pt % has to much higher to cover for the other areas he lacks talent and effectiveness.

I'm glad he hustles - I would too if I was making $4 million per year with that skill set- heck, I'd be diving on the floor every play. How many other contending NBA teams have a big man that is only good at shooting 3's and gets as many minutes as boner?

[dunkman]

in order for this team to be successful with boner playing significant minutes, his 3pt % has to much higher to cover for the other areas he lacks talent and effectiveness.

I'm glad he hustles - I would too if I was making $4 million per year with that skill set- heck, I'd be diving on the floor every play. How many other contending NBA teams have a big man that is only good at shooting 3's and gets as many minutes as boner?

Fisher with the Lakers isn't a big but his role is to shot 3's.

Pop wants Bonner as a big to shot 3's with another 3 good 3-point shooters (Hill, Manu and RJ) for various 4-x offensive plays. Blair, Splitter and Dice can't do that.

So far, Bonner doesn't hit big shots as Fisher (or Horry) in the playoffs. IMO, he improved a lot the last season.

People expect from a role bench player to bring 10-12 points every game, but such players go for $7-8M per year. For $3-4M you get a player that can put 10-12 every second or third game.

[Baseline]

There are 96 minutes per game (48 x 2) to go around at the 4 and 5 positions.

Tim...... 32
Blair..... 24
Splitt.... 24
Dice..... 16

That leaves bonner with Zero. So to me unless one of the top 4 bigs are out, or we're down by 12 and need a couple of threes, Bonner should be glued to that pine. He should be nothing more than an insurance policy (Geico 2.0), and a bad one at that.

[AussieFanKurt]

There are 96 minutes per game (48 x 2) to go around at the 4 and 5 positions.

Tim...... 32
Blair..... 24
Splitt.... 24
Dice..... 16

That leaves bonner with Zero. So to me unless one of the top 4 bigs are out, or we're down by 12 and need a couple of threes, Bonner should be glued to that pine. He should be nothing more than an insurance policy (Geico 2.0), and a bad one at that.

I like this. Maybe give Bonner 1 minute a game so he can be a crowd fave like Scalabrine

[yavozerb]

There are 96 minutes per game (48 x 2) to go around at the 4 and 5 positions.

Tim...... 32
Blair..... 24
Splitt.... 24
Dice..... 16

That leaves bonner with Zero. So to me unless one of the top 4 bigs are out, or we're down by 12 and need a couple of threes, Bonner should be glued to that pine. He should be nothing more than an insurance policy (Geico 2.0), and a bad one at that.

More like:
Tim.....28
Dice...17
Blair...28
Splitt...17
Bonner...10

[z0sa]

There are 96 minutes per game (48 x 2) to go around at the 4 and 5 positions.

Tim...... 32
Blair..... 24
Splitt.... 24
Dice..... 16

That leaves bonner with Zero. So to me unless one of the top 4 bigs are out, or we're down by 12 and need a couple of threes, Bonner should be glued to that pine. He should be nothing more than an insurance policy (Geico 2.0), and a bad one at that.

Tim barely averaged 30 last season.

One of Splitter and Blair will be lucky to average 24 .. :lmao at both. You remember who coaches the Spurs?

Dice will definitely get more than 16.

Bonner will end up with roughly 16 MPG.

[ElNono]

More like:
Tim.....28
Dice...17
Blair...28
Splitt...17
Bonner...10

I can live with this...

Unfortunately, I go into the season thinking the minutes for Matt and Splitter are going to be reversed.

[objective]

Tim barely averaged 30 last season.


Don't look up his playoff numbers.

edit-

sorry, didn't see the posts previous which I would guess are regular season estimates

My point remains:

In the playoffs, Duncan will get minutes. Hopefully Splitter, Blair and McDyess will keep Bonner limited to garbage time.

[objective]

I like this. Maybe give Bonner 1 minute a game so he can be a crowd fave like Scalabrine

I'd rather have Scalabrine than Bonner.

Scalabrine at least would earn scrub money while getting scrub-DNPs. Same hustle and has a much better career playoff 3pt% than Bonner.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop rarely has, if ever, used a 5 man big rotation during the course of a season on a game to game basis.

I don't think this season will be any different.

As I stated here..



About the Big Rotation
*I don't believe Pop will run a 5-big rotation every game. That will only make it longer for Tiago and the other bigs to start gaining the proper chemistry the team needs in order to reach their full potential (5 man "musical chairs" rotation will only make it longer for the team to start gelling; and how can the bigs (excluding TD) find a confident rhythm if they would only play 10-18 minutes each--if the proposed 5 big rotation per game plays out).

The value of adding an improved DeJuan Blair and a legit 7 footer in Tiago Splitter allows Pop to rest Duncan and McDyess more games without having to worry about a significant drop in production.

* The games McDyess rests or enjoys a Horry-like vacation (1st half of the season) Spurs can have Duncan/Blair-- Tiago/Bonner rotation.

*The games Duncan rests Spurs can have Splitter/Blair-- McDyess/ Bonner rotation.

*The games Spurs have their guns loaded, Spurs can have the Duncan/Blair-- Tiago/ (McDyess or Bonner rotation; Whoever is playing well that part of the season)..


And for those who question this by asking, " Well then why did the Spurs resign Bonner for 4 years?"

Here you go:


Spurs signed Bonner so they could have a quality 5th big option this year. Duncan and Dyess will have their overall minutes limited by sitting out some games if all goes as planned.

The main reason Spurs gave Bonner the contract they did is because after this season, Dyess will be gone and the Spurs would then have only 3 quality bigs on the entire roster with a late 1st-2nd round pick (uncertainties) and a limited exception(depending on if Spurs want to go into the *new* luxury tax or not) to add a quality 4th and 5th big on the roster. And as long as Duncan is still playing from here on out, the Spurs will need 4-5 quality bigs to give Duncan the rest he needs in order for the Spurs to be able to compete with the elite of the league.

Basically in a nut shell, resigning Bonner guaranteed the Spurs depth (4-deep at least) at the front-court position til Tim's wheels essentially fall off and at the same time-- it gives the Spurs the proper roster flexibility to limit Duncan and Dyess' minutes by letting them sit out some games this season.

[SequSpur]

Bonner is going to fuckin start...don't you get that?

[Borosai]

No Bonner, No Championship. Pop understands this. Deal with it.

[underdawg]

No Bonner, No Championship. Pop understands this. Deal with it.

Pop needs to understand that his fantasy of boner being useful to this team has come and gone. He does not help this mediocre defense and a mediocre defense = no championship for the Spurs.

[poop]

not only is bonner still on the team.

he was given a four-year contract.

and he will continue to get big minutes, if not start.

the season is doomed from the start.

[JR3]

I 100% agree with this. BUT everyone said the spurs could not win a championship with AJ as their point. Just sayin.

[Spurs Brazil]

Well, M.Monroe thinks Bonner will be the Sixth Man of the Year

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/NBA_Season_Predictions_105603908.html

:lmao:rollin:rollin:lol:rollin:rollin:lmao

[benefactor]

lol intellectual property

[ShoogarBear]

Well, M.Monroe thinks Bonner will be the Sixth Man of the Year

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/NBA_Season_Predictions_105603908.html

:lmao:rollin:rollin:lol:rollin:rollin:lmao

Bonner sixth man of the year?
Hedo most improved player?

Hokey smokes, dude. Embarrassing doesn't begin to describe it.

[benefactor]

Let's put it this way...if Bonner gets enough minutes to be in the running for sixth man of the year then the Spurs are in serious, serious trouble.

[Agloco]

Any minute Bonner gets is too many. I wish he'd just get fucking bought out.

:tu

[sribb43]

at least he isnt Brian Cardinal :bang

[LeCrab]

Bonner is awful on defense and boards... if he's not making 3's i really don't see the reason he gets so many minutes.

[SequSpur]

Bonner plays smaller than mugsy bogues...

[jjktkk]

Bonner is awful on defense and boards... if he's not making 3's i really don't see the reason he gets so many minutes.

He did take away a rebound away from Howard tonight, but as long as he at least competes on the defensive end, and of course hitting his 3's, Bonner is a asset to the Spurs. Hopefully with increased frontcourt depth this year, Bonner's minutes won't get overextended.

[angelbelow]

He did take away a rebound away from Howard tonight, but as long as he at least competes on the defensive end, and of course hitting his 3's, Bonner is a asset to the Spurs. Hopefully with increased frontcourt depth this year, Bonner's minutes won't get overextended.

Thats the least he can do after failing to boxout so many times in the 1st and 2nd, His rebounding effort has increased in the3rd though.

[DJ Mbenga]

if bonner ever goes cold from 3 pop might consider cutting him.

[Borosai]

This is Bonner's team now. Deal with it.

[senorglory]

Bonner's four for four and three for three from the three nights are tearing this team apart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[phyzik]

If only he keeps it up when it matters.....

He needs to channel his inner Robert Horry in the playoffs this year or its all for naught.

If he pulls another stinker when it comes to the playoffs, he needs to be shipped.

[yavozerb]

Glad to see Bonner shutting up all his doubters so far this season...I really like to see Splitter get some PT but with Bonner playing like this there is no way he is going to give up any of his minutes. If the only the material bonner haters have is "wait until the playoffs" then I think its gonna be a great season for bonner and those haters need to move onto another player until april...

[LeCrab]

Again when he is not making 3's he brings nothing to this team

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Bonner should be on the IR

[Chomag]

Glad to see Bonner shutting up all his doubters so far this season...I really like to see Splitter get some PT but with Bonner playing like this there is no way he is going to give up any of his minutes. If the only the material bonner haters have is "wait until the playoffs" then I think its gonna be a great season for bonner and those haters need to move onto another player until april...

Lol Mavs shutting Super Bonner down.

[benefactor]

lol Pop going with him late in the game and Dirk immediately bukkaking him.

[lefty]

Lol Mavs shutting Super Bonner down.
Mavs are not useless !!!! :wow

[TimDunkem]

Yeah, when he's throwing more pump fakes, and runners than 3 balls, then he needs to sit.

Splitter should have gotten more minutes.

[z0sa]

lol Pop going with him late in the game and Dirk immediately bukkaking him.

LOL Dirk bukkaking everyone tonight yet you singling out Bonner.

[yavozerb]

Lol Mavs shutting Super Bonner down.

Lol, at how many games the spurs would have lost by now without Bonners hot shooting this season...A bad game from Bonner, parker, duncan, and RJ also played bad. Funny how when the spurs lose its bonners fault, since the ball goes throws him on every play...dumb ass fans

[yavozerb]

Yeah, when he's throwing more pump fakes, and runners than 3 balls, then he needs to sit.

Splitter should have gotten more minutes.

agreed

[Texas_Ranger]

Bonner sucks and he will always suck. He can make 2 threes but on defense he will let his guy score 20 points, so like I said he sucks! I hate that the Spurs are the only team where he can play 20-30 minutes. On other teams he would be send te the D league. Fuck his threes and fuck his shitty defense. Just go away already you red piece of shit!

[Agloco]

LOL Dirk bukkaking everyone tonight yet you singling out Bonner.

This.

Dirk had his foot squarely in the Spurs asses all evening long. 12-14.......wtf?

Allowing 52.7% from the field won't get it done.

[benefactor]

LOL Dirk bukkaking everyone tonight yet you singling out Bonner.
So Bonner was a better idea defensively than Dice...ok.

[Chomag]

Lol, at how many games the spurs would have lost by now without Bonners hot shooting this season...A bad game from Bonner, parker, duncan, and RJ also played bad. Funny how when the spurs lose its bonners fault, since the ball goes throws him on every play...dumb ass fans

Wait.. your saying it's the Spur's fault Bonner chocked tonight?

[yavozerb]

Bonner sucks and he will always suck. He can make 2 threes but on defense he will let his guy score 20 points, so like I said he sucks! I hate that the Spurs are the only team where he can play 20-30 minutes. On other teams he would be send te the D league. Fuck his threes and fuck his shitty defense. Just go away already you red piece of shit!

:lol, when you actually learn the game of basketball please come back...

[Spurs Brazil]

Bonner and Dice were awful against Dirk

Blair was the one who bothered him most

[widowmaker]

This wasn't bonners fault check Tony parker, that bitch was scared to go in the lane all night.

[yavozerb]

Wait.. your saying it's the Spur's fault Bonner chocked tonight?

Please tell me where in my post did I say that? Its a fact that when TP,Duncan, and RJ play bad that bonner usually cannot contribute as much to this team. When tp is driving and drawing attention, when TD is drawing double teams, and when RJ is driving to the basket, is when Bonner is at his best. None of that happened tonight. What part of ROLE PLAYER do you not understand?

[z0sa]

So Bonner was a better idea defensively than Dice...ok.

Dyess was just as ineffective. And everyone else. Did you watch the game? See how no matter who guarded him, he essentially always commanded a double team?

Apparently not. Blair was best and that's not saying much.

[underdawg]

Glad to see Bonner shutting up all his doubters so far this season...I really like to see Splitter get some PT but with Bonner playing like this there is no way he is going to give up any of his minutes. If the only the material bonner haters have is "wait until the playoffs" then I think its gonna be a great season for bonner and those haters need to move onto another player until april...

Sorry, but the Spurs seriously need a better player to play 23 minutes in this game tonight. I'm hoping that's going to be Splitter sometime in the near future, but it shouldn't be Bonner.

[benefactor]

Dyess was just as ineffective. And everyone else. Did you watch the game? See how no matter who guarded him, he essentially always commanded a double team?

Apparently not.
Sure did...and I saw Dice on Dirk late in the game making Dirk give up the ball which lead to a turnover. Then Pop went small...then Pop went to Bonner. Game over.

[widowmaker]

Please tell me where in my post did I say that? Its a fact that when TP,Duncan, and RJ play bad that bonner usually cannot contribute as much to this team. When tp is driving and drawing attention, when TD is drawing double teams, and when RJ is driving to the basket, is when Bonner is at his best. None of that happened tonight. What part of ROLE PLAYER do you not understand?

That's exactly what Im talking about. Tp did not try and drive and create. This is his doing.

[z0sa]

Spurfan cracks me up. Dirk doesn't get a FT and they still rain on the players guarding him. Even specifically call out one of em - does it matter who guards Dirk in the whole L??? Who will stop him? Morons.

[Chomag]

Please tell me where in my post did I say that? Its a fact that when TP,Duncan, and RJ play bad that bonner usually cannot contribute as much to this team. When tp is driving and drawing attention, when TD is drawing double teams, and when RJ is driving to the basket, is when Bonner is at his best. None of that happened tonight. What part of ROLE PLAYER do you not understand?

I'll tell you, but you have to tell me first where I said that it's Bonner's fault the Spurs lost tonight.

[Mugen]

lol Bonner will NEVER be in Pop's doghouse as long as he remains on the team or is not injured.

These Bonner apologists have it right, complaining about him is absolutely pointless. Just be like Tpark and never question anything Pop does. Never!

[yavozerb]

Sorry, but the Spurs seriously need a better player to play 23 minutes in this game tonight. I'm hoping that's going to be Splitter sometime in the near future, but it shouldn't be Bonner.

If bonners shot is falling he is the better choice if it is not Splitter should get more minutes..should be that easy. I thougt bonner actually did a decent job on Nowitzki and keeping him from driving and not fouling him. When a guy like that gets hot, not much anybody can do, gotta just hope he cools off which he didnt.

[benefactor]

All in all it doesn't matter. The point is Bonner should never be in the game late...ever. He's not clutch and his inability to rebound makes him a huge liability.

[z0sa]

All in all it doesn't matter. The point is Bonner should never be in the game late...ever.

So he shouldn't have been in the game when he hit that 3 ball against Minny in OT... just last game.

You should stop now.

[Mugen]

If bonners shot is falling he is the better choice if it is not Splitter should get more minutes..should be that easy. I thougt bonner actually did a decent job on Nowitzki and keeping him from driving and not fouling him. When a guy like that gets hot, not much anybody can do, gotta just hope he cools off which he didnt.


you'd think so, wouldnt you?

[yavozerb]

Wait.. your saying it's the Spur's fault Bonner chocked tonight?


I'll tell you, but you have to tell me first where I said that it's Bonner's fault the Spurs lost tonight.

When you call out a specific player and say he "chocked", you are in my opinion saying he is one of the main reasons for the loss. I am simply telling you that the day that bonner determines a win or a loss by himself is the day I stop watching spurs games. He is so far down on the list of reasons for the loss is stupid to single him out.

[underdawg]

Spurfan cracks me up. Dirk doesn't get a FT and they still rain on the players guarding him. Even specifically call out one of em - does it matter who guards Dirk in the whole L??? Who will stop him? Morons.

I don't think you can ever really defend Dirk (maybe Bowen slowed him down a bit,) but it's the other things that hurt when the Spurs had Bonner on him or when Pop went small - rebounding being the obvious one.

Spurs needed someone to step up to help Manu, but Jefferson and Bonner failed. The difference between the two is that on most nights Jefferson should be capable and Bonner's usually not.

I still don't understand why so many claim that Bonner does more than shoot 3's - he just doesn't.

[Chomag]

When you call out a specific player and say he "chocked", you are in my opinion saying he is one of the main reasons for the loss. I am simply telling you that the day that bonner determines a win or a loss by himself is the day I stop watching spurs games. He is so far down on the list of reasons for the loss is stupid to single him out.

Well, if this thread was about the Spurs team then I would call out others as it wasnt just him that did not fit the roll needed for them to win. However this thread id about Bonner unless I'm not reading the title right. And Bonner did choke tonight but to be fair, yes others did as well.

[Blackjack]

I do believe Bonner plays too prominent of a role for the Spurs to win a championship. But I think you're crazy if you think the Spurs lost this game because Dirk was unstoppable or killing them.

The Spurs played like crap offensively, Parker and Jefferson were M.I.A., and the Spurs were still in the driver's seat late. Had Manu not been on fire early and the Spurs' swagger not been at the ridiculous level it's been as of late, they would have been run off the floor.

Take a look at the box score (http://www.nba.com/tvc/index.html?gamecode=20101126/DALSAS&brand=NBA). Other than the Spurs making their free throws, it ain't purdy.

The Spurs just didn't have enough people playing well.

[z0sa]

Spurs needed someone to step up to help Manu, but Jefferson and Bonner failed. The difference between the two is that on most nights Jefferson should be capable and Bonner's usually not.

:rolleyes

I think you're forgetting Tony Parker in your "Manu Needed Help" equation.

[The Truth #6]

No one defended that well tonight, including Bonner. Bonner is a one dimensional player. If he's bricking 3 pointers then Pop needs to make the decision to pull him out of the game. Pop didn't and so we got nothing from his position while he was out there. Bonner played too many minutes tonight. Pop should have tried more of Blair or Splitter. Bad coaching in my opinion.

[underdawg]

If bonners shot is falling he is the better choice if it is not Splitter should get more minutes..should be that easy. I thougt bonner actually did a decent job on Nowitzki and keeping him from driving and not fouling him. When a guy like that gets hot, not much anybody can do, gotta just hope he cools off which he didnt.

I can see where you're coming from and many that defend Bonner, but I find it hard to see how having a player of Splitter's skill set would ever be a disadvantage compared to Bonner's. I know we need 3pt shooting, but I still believe defense and rebounding are bigger needs and have been for a while.

[z0sa]

Pop put Bonner out there late because our offense dried up. If TP or RJ is playing even decent, I expect Blair or Dyess make another appearance. Instead, we're forced to go with an offensive lineup. That's not Pop's fault. He reacted like just about any coach would.

[yavozerb]

I can see where you're coming from and many that defend Bonner, but I find it hard to see how having a player of Splitter's skill set would ever be a disadvantage compared to Bonner's. I know we need 3pt shooting, but I still believe defense and rebounding are bigger needs and have been for a while.

Bonners appeal should fade as well his 3 pt shooting. When a player shoots over 60% from 3pt, you try and maximize this as much as you can while he stays hot. I believe as bonners shooting goes, so well his minutes to splitter. Just a thought

[mingus]

why we lost:

Dirk going 12-14. whether it was bad defense or not, the Spurs are not likely to win when Dirk is scoring at that rate. he had a similar game one of the playoffs last year where he was hitting everything. he hits 7 or 8/14 that's 8-10 points less and the Spurs are in much better shape to win the game. that's why he's a hall-of-famer. that said, i would've liked to see Splitter on him.

Parker and RJ playing like complete utter shit. Because of this, I would've like to see Parker go into Duncan more. only 12 shots for Duncan is ridiculous when he was shooting well from the field and Parker can't hit. Spurs didn't do enough of a job trying to get him the ball.

[underdawg]

:rolleyes

I think you're forgetting Tony Parker in your "Manu Needed Help" equation.

no, I didn't - Tim, Tony and Manu are going to have several games this year where they are off and that's mainly because of the miles on each one of those players. I think they get a pass on those nights - they've earned it.

In order for this team to be a true contender, the big 3 will have to be less dominant in terms of their role than ever before. Obviously they're still the Spurs' big 3, but the role players will have to be much better than the Spurs have needed their role players to be for some time now.

I think Jefferson, Neal and Splitter have potential, but to rely on Bonner to do more than shoot 3's is a recipe for failure.

[z0sa]

no, I didn't - Tim, Tony and Manu are going to have several games this year where they are off and that's mainly because of the miles on each one of those players. I think they get a pass on those nights - they've earned it.

So your "argument" is that TP deserves a pass for having an incredibly shitty game? Lame. I think you did, in fact, forget TP in your criticisms.

Bonner and RJ have played off of the Big 3's playmaking all season, specifically Tony and Manu's. When one of those 2 don't play well, and the 3rd isn't getting many shots, you can damn well expect the role players to struggle - whether the Big 3 deserves a "pass" or not.

[TJastal]

C'mon guys, the only reason Pop signed Splitter was to wipe Bonner's ass after taking a shit out on the court.

Just u wait, Matt Bonner will lead the spurs to a championship, book it!!

















:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Warlord23]

We've all seen this movie before. Bonner will shoot well now and then to keep Pop interested. By the time the playoffs start, Bonner will be playing 25 minutes to Splitter's 5 minutes a game. We run into a team with a talented forward like West, Odom, Dirk and the shit hits the fan. All it took was Channing fucking Frye last year.

[underdawg]

So your "argument" is that TP deserves a pass for having an incredibly shitty game? Lame. I think you did, in fact, forget TP in your criticisms.

Bonner and RJ have played off of the Big 3's playmaking all season, specifically Tony and Manu's. When one of those 2 don't play well, and the 3rd isn't getting many shots, you can damn well expect the role players to struggle - whether the Big 3 deserves a "pass" or not.

Think what you want, but they most definitely should get a pass. If you expect them to continue at the pace they've played so far this year, to me that's pretty idealistic.

If our role players can't avoid struggling when 2 don't play well - we're doomed. If the Spurs are counting on Bonner to pick up the slack - we're definitely doomed.

This is one game in a long season, but it's a good taste of things to come - the Spurs will need huge contributions from their role players to be true contenders this year.

[z0sa]

Think what you want, but they most definitely should get a pass. If you expect them to continue at the pace they've played so far this year, to me that's pretty idealistic.

Yeah, no one said, or implied that. TP played well below average, in fact, his most terrible game of the season. You say yourself Bonner is a spotup three point shooter - so when our best passer (stat-wise) has 1 assist, why do you expect him to step up?

Blame RJ, the 40 million dollar man, if you must. All of it is lame as fuck.

[ElNono]

Pop put Bonner out there late because our offense dried up. If TP or RJ is playing even decent, I expect Blair or Dyess make another appearance.

I'm not sold on that. I thought Pop simply didn't feel like going to Dice on Dirk to close the game. Putting Bonner on Dirk means an automatic double-team. Dirk should get credit for finding the open guy. Bonner should just simply not be closing out games against good teams, otherwise you're back to giving him the role that we argued ad nauseum he shouldn't have.

Ultimately, they executed great in the 4th, and we couldn't make a shot. I thought all those mistakes in the first half and part of the second is what cost us. Tony and RJ had poor games too. It happens, you're not going to win them all.

[MaNu4Tres]

This team will not win a damn thing in April, May and June if Bonner sees more time than Splitter and McDyess.

Luckily it's only November.

[underdawg]

Yeah, no one said, or implied that. TP played well below average, in fact, his most terrible game of the season. You say yourself Bonner is a spotup three point shooter - so when our best passer (stat-wise) has 1 assist, why do you expect him to step up?

Blame RJ, the 40 million dollar man, if you must. All of it is lame as fuck.

Sorry - you said saying that TP gets a pass is lame, so I must have misunderstood you. I'm not blaming Bonner for the Spurs woes - he's probably playing the best he can right now. He just shouldn't be getting that many minutes and if that means I'm blaming Pop, so be it.

Jefferson is definitely to blame too, since he's expected to play better, but I have a lot more faith in him having a better game, in the next game, than I do Bonner.

[z0sa]

I'm not sold on that. I thought Pop simply didn't feel like going to Dice on Dirk to close the game.

I mostly agree with the rest, but your "gut feeling" doesn't have a logical argument behind it. Bonner is hot overall, and hit a big shot after missing several just last game. With no offense, Pop did the logical move and put his hottest hands out there.

[Borosai]

The Spurs lost because of turnovers. Bonner had 0. Yeah he didn't shoot well, but that happens to everyone. He isn't turning the ball over, he isn't giving his man a free path to the basket, and he's not committing dumb fouls. He's not a spectacular talent, and that's why he's a role player.

I want to see the Spurs play big, like they used to, and like the past two champs play. Duncan and Splitter (once he's ready) would be great starting, with Dice backing up Tim at the 5, and Blair/Bonner backing up the 4 according to need/strategy. But for now Bonner is playing a bigger role, and he's been doing very well.

Haters gonna hate.

[ElNono]

I mostly agree with the rest, but your "gut feeling" doesn't have a logical argument behind it.

I agree it's illogical. But you should ask Pop, not me, why he went with Bonner instead of Dice. I'm not discovering anything telling you that when Bonner guards him we need to gamble with a double-team. Dice is the only player we have that can guard him one-on-one right now.


Bonner is hot overall, and hit a big shot after missing several just last game. With no offense, Pop did the logical move and put his hottest hands out there.

The reason we had no offense was that we had nobody to create it. Tony had a subpar game, and the Mavs took notice and sent all they had towards Ginobili, since he was the only one making stuff happen out there. Bonner gives you nothing different than Dice on the offensive side if you can't create a shot for him. Tonight we simply couldn't.

[TJastal]

The Spurs lost because of turnovers. Bonner had 0. Yeah he didn't shoot well, but that happens to everyone. He isn't turning the ball over, he isn't giving his man a free path to the basket, and he's not committing dumb fouls. He's not a spectacular talent, and that's why he's a role player.

I want to see the Spurs play big, like they used to, and like the past two champs play. Duncan and Splitter (once he's ready) would be great starting, with Dice backing up Tim at the 5, and Blair/Bonner backing up the 4 according to need/strategy. But for now Bonner is playing a bigger role, and he's been doing very well.

Haters gonna hate.

So you want the spurs to play bigger but keep playing Bonner a big role? How does that work? :lol

[ElNono]

And BTW, I see nothing wrong with Pop trying stuff out against Dirk in November. This is when you try different looks. I'm sure that if this was a playoff game, you would see Dice out there.

[ElNono]

One last note, I didn't think Bonner had much to do with the loss overall. I mean, the Spurs had much bigger problems than Matt this game. TP and RJ are two. Careless turnovers is another. It's stuff you can correct. It just sucks because it looked like a game we could have won.

[Borosai]

So you want the spurs to play bigger but keep playing Bonner a big role? How does that work? :lol

It works by reading more carefully.

[Bruno]

Bonner has nothing to do playing significant minutes on a team with championship aspirations. Spurs should either trade him (after December 15th) or put him at the end of the bench.

[JustinJDW]

Tim Duncan - 30
Tiago Splitter - 18
Antonio McDyess - 18
Dejuan Blair - 18
Matt Bonner - 12

That's how it should be. If Bonner is still playing more minutes then Dice and Splitter late in the Season and come Playoff time, then we are in some serious trouble.

[Cessation]

I think its pops fault for overplaying him, bonner sometimes is hitting, and other times he isnt, thats when hes gotta pull him, 1-6, and 1-4 from three, looks like he was licking the sack tonight

[TJastal]

Tim Duncan - 30
Tiago Splitter - 18
Antonio McDyess - 18
Dejuan Blair - 18
Matt Bonner - 12

That's how it should be. If Bonner is still playing more minutes then Dice and Splitter in the next game, then we are in some serious trouble.

Fixed.

[ElNono]

I think its pops fault for overplaying him, bonner sometimes is hitting, and other times he isnt, thats when hes gotta pull him, 1-6, and 1-4 from three, looks like was licking the sack tonight, i dunno, i might be wrong, what do you think?

I think against the Mavs is a special game. Dirk is so far deep inside Matt's psyche it's not even funny. It just kills his confidence, IMO. I think that's the major difference between Dice and Matt against Dallas (besides of Dice obviously being the superior rebounder). Dice understands that nobody can really stop Dirk, all you can do is make him work hard then go play at the other end. Matt on the other hand has gotten burned so bad for so long, you have to start questioning how much it affects his game overall.

[jjktkk]

I think against the Mavs is a special game. Dirk is so far deep inside Matt's psyche it's not even funny. It just kills his confidence, IMO. I think that's the major difference between Dice and Matt against Dallas (besides of Dice obviously being the superior rebounder). Dice understands that nobody can really stop Dirk, all you can do is make him work hard then go play at the other end. Matt on the other hand has gotten burned so bad for so long, you have to start questioning how much it affects his game overall.

Dice didn't look too hot tonight agaisnt Dirk tonight. There really isn't anyone on the Spurs roster that can guard Dirk IMO.

[jjktkk]

I think Jefferson, Neal and Splitter have potential, but to rely on Bonner to do more than shoot 3's is a recipe for failure.


Since when has Pop stated that he expects Bonner to do more than provide 3-point shooting?

[ElNono]

Dice didn't look too hot tonight agaisnt Dirk tonight. There really isn't anyone on the Spurs roster that can guard Dirk IMO.

Nobody can stop Dirk 100%. You just can't, and it's not just the Spurs.
I didn't think Antonio had a good game, but he's the only one that can play physical with Dirk and try to cover him one on one. He can block him if Dirk tries to drive and he can give you boards if Dirk misses. At least, that's what he did last playoffs.

It's not ideal, but it's the closest we have. I thought at the very end it hurts us to double team him. He has turned into a good passer off double teams, and they made us pay.

[ElNono]

Since when has Pop stated that he expects Bonner to do more than provide 3-point shooting?

You would think defense would be part of the job description though, right?

[jjktkk]

No one defended that well tonight, including Bonner. Bonner is a one dimensional player. If he's bricking 3 pointers then Pop needs to make the decision to pull him out of the game. Pop didn't and so we got nothing from his position while he was out there. Bonner played too many minutes tonight. Pop should have tried more of Blair or Splitter. Bad coaching in my opinion.

Somewhat agree if whoever replaces Bonner can provide offense. IMO thats why Pop kept Bonner in, hoping(praying) that Bonner can spark the offense. This is just my theory, but when the Spurs play against the Mavs, the Spurs do not have someone that can defend Dirk, so IMO, Pop wants whoevers guarding Dirk to at least be able to score, to make Dirk work on defense.

[ALVAREZ6]

Tim Duncan - 30
Tiago Splitter - 18
Antonio McDyess - 18
Dejuan Blair - 18
Matt Bonner - 12

That's how it should be. If Bonner is still playing more minutes then Dice and Splitter late in the Season and come Playoff time, then Pop is a mother-fucking moron.

fixed

[intlspurshk]

Trade the shit Bonner while you can!!!

[jjktkk]

You would think defense would be part of the job description though, right?

Not when it involves Bonner. As we know, Bonner is out on the court for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. know I know Pop expects Bonner to compete on defense, but anything Bonner provides besides 3-point shooting, is icing on the cake.

[ElNono]

This is just my theory, but when the Spurs play against the Mavs, the Spurs do not have someone that can defend Dirk, so IMO, Pop wants whoevers guarding Dirk to at least be able to score, to make Dirk work on defense.

Go and re-watch the fourth quarter while Bonner is being guarded by Dirk though. You'll see that Dirk doesn't follow Bonner out to the perimeter, and instead camps in the paint. I noticed that while the game was ongoing. Good teams will dare him to shoot if he's in an off night. We've seen this not just with Dallas, but also with other teams, like the Lakers.

[TJastal]

Not when it involves Bonner. As we know, Bonner is out on the court for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. know I know Pop expects Bonner to compete on defense, but anything Bonner provides besides 3-point shooting, is icing on the cake.

So apologist..

why did Bonner play 23 minutes when he was cold tonight? If he provides absolutely NOTHING else besides 3's why didn't Pop use Splitter?

[ElNono]

Not when it involves Bonner. As we know, Bonner is out on the court for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. know I know Pop expects Bonner to compete on defense, but anything Bonner provides besides 3-point shooting, is icing on the cake.

If Pop expects him to compete on defense, then more than just 3 point shooting is expected of him.

At the very end, I agree with Bruno that such a one dimensional player playing this many minutes has no place on a team with championship aspirations.

[jjktkk]

nobody can stop dirk 100%. You just can't, and it's not just the spurs.
I didn't think antonio had a good game, but he's the only one that can play physical with dirk and try to cover him one on one. He can block him if dirk tries to drive and he can give you boards if dirk misses. At least, that's what he did last playoffs.

It's not ideal, but it's the closest we have. I thought at the very end it hurts us to double team him. He has turned into a good passer off double teams, and they made us pay.

+1.

[jjktkk]

So apologist..

why did Bonner play 23 minutes when he was cold tonight? If he provides absolutely NOTHING else besides 3's why didn't Pop use Splitter?

I don't know, I don't have Pop's phone number? My guess is Pop was hoping that Bonner would of caught fire. I've said in other posts, that if Bonner isn't hitting his 3's he needs to be benched.

[jjktkk]

If Pop expects him to compete on defense, then more than just 3 point shooting is expected of him.

At the very end, I agree with Bruno that such a one dimensional player playing this many minutes has no place on a team with championship aspirations.

I agree, Bonner shouldn't play too many minutes. As far as one demensional players like Bonner, NBA teams are filled with them. Maybe not a power forward like Bonner, but players like Kyle Kover, Ben Gordon, Mike Miller, etc. None of the players I've mentioned are known for playing defense, just like Bonner.

[TJastal]

I don't know, I don't have Pop's phone number? My guess is Pop was hoping that Bonner would of caught fire. I've said in other posts, that if Bonner isn't hitting his 3's he needs to be benched.

Great, so you're finally admitting that Pop is full of kaka. Welcome to your first step into the hater's realm. :toast

[jjktkk]

Great, so you're finally admitting that Pop is full of kaka. Welcome to your first step into the hater's realm. :toast

Not hate. I'm thankful that my favorite team for over thirty years, has a future hall of fame coach guiding them.

[mingus]

So apologist..

why did Bonner play 23 minutes when he was cold tonight? If he provides absolutely NOTHING else besides 3's why didn't Pop use Splitter?

I've been a critic of Pop many times, but even i don't think pop is oblvious enough of about Splitter to keep his minutes where they're at. i'm pretty sure he's taking into account the fact that Splitter is actually used to playing like 45 games per season in Europe, so he doesn't want to throw him into a potentially 80+ game year. specially since he also played in the summer and he's shown a tendency to get banged up with minor injuries.

[ElNono]

I agree, Bonner shouldn't play too many minutes. As far as one demensional players like Bonner, NBA teams are filled with them. Maybe not a power forward like Bonner, but players like Kyle Kover, Ben Gordon, Mike Miller, etc. None of the players I've mentioned are known for playing defense, just like Bonner.

None of them are in teams with championship aspirations.

[ElNono]

Eh, I missed Mike Miller there... That said, it's yet to be seen if the Heat are really going to get their shit together by then... and Miller averages a non-measly 5 boards per game career wise... obviously, more than Matt...

I would have loved to get him in the offseason.

The other thing to distinguish here, is where Matt plays (or defends). Most of those guys are perimeter guys. Matt plays in the last line of defense.

[jjktkk]

None of them are in teams with championship aspirations.

Mike Miller-Miami? Kyle Kover-Chicago? I'm sure when Detroit signed Ben Gordon, they had championship aspirations.

[Xevious]

Dice has been the only big thus far that can defend athletic, face-up forwards. I'm not sure why Blair continues to start when he only plays a few minutes to start the half. I'd like to see Duncan and Dice start together with Splitter getting more minutes off the bench. Bonner and Blair can split the remaining minutes depending on matchups.

In any case, Splitter absolutely needs to get more minutes to get adjusted and improve.

[TJastal]

I've been a critic of Pop many times, but even i don't think pop is oblvious enough of about Splitter to keep his minutes where they're at. i'm pretty sure he's taking into account the fact that Splitter is actually used to playing like 45 games per season in Europe, so he doesn't want to throw him into a potentially 80+ game year. specially since he also played in the summer and he's shown a tendency to get banged up with minor injuries.

So let me follow your logic here. Every collegiate player coming out of college to the pros needs to be restricted to 30 games or less because that's what "they're used to"?

:lmao

[ElNono]

Chicago has championship aspirations? News to me.
Again, all perimeter players. If Matt was a SF I would have much less of an issue with his lack of defense.

[jjktkk]

Eh, I missed Mike Miller there... That said, it's yet to be seen if the Heat are really going to get their shit together by then... and Miller averages a non-measly 5 boards per game career wise... obviously, more than Matt...

I would have loved to get him in the offseason.

The other thing to distinguish here, is where Matt plays (or defends). Most of those guys are perimeter guys. Matt plays in the last line of defense.

My point is that these players were talking about are either average, or below average defensive players. The teams that signed these players realized that as well, but they signed these players for their ability to score.

[ALVAREZ6]

Whoa....don't stoop Ben Gordon to Matt Bonner's level.


Gordon is definitely not the one-dimensional player Bonner is.

[jjktkk]

So let me follow your logic here. Every collegiate player coming out of college to the pros needs to be restricted to 30 games or less because that's what "they're used to"?

:lmao

Most coaches in the NFL and NBA are worried about rookies hitting the "rookie wall". Guess you never heard of that term. It is a legitimate concern for coaches.

[ElNono]

My point is that these players were talking about are either average, or below average defensive players. The teams that signed these players realized that as well, but they signed these players for their ability to score.

None of them are expected to guard bigs. That's exactly why they can do without the defense. Kyle Korver or Mike Miller wouldn't be in the NBA right now if they had to guard Dirk, Gasol, Garnett, etc. They simply don't have that much offense to offset what they would give up on the other end.

[ElNono]

And yeah, Ben Gordon is a bad comparison at many levels. The guy can dribble drive, has a mid-range jumper and can create his own shot. I mean, we're talking day and night here.

[jjktkk]

Whoa....don't stoop Ben Gordon to Matt Bonner's level.


Gordon is definitely not the one-dimensional player Bonner is.

I've never seen Gordon as a lock down defender going back to his college days at UCONN, nor with Chicago and Detroit. Great scorer, but nothing special on the defensive end.

[ElNono]

But you can't say Gordon is as one dimensional as Matt Bonner...

[mingus]

So let me follow your logic here. Every collegiate player coming out of college to the pros needs to be restricted to 30 games or less because that's what "they're used to"?

:lmao

:rolleyes guess you didn't catch the "especially because he's had a tendency to get banged up with minor injuries and he played in the summer" part. you must be in politics. whatever, dude.

[ElNono]

Mingus has a point, and I brought it up in the forum downstairs. It's certainly plausible that Pop is saving Tiago's legs for now... We'll see when January rolls around

[Blackjack]

I agree, Bonner shouldn't play too many minutes. As far as one demensional players like Bonner, NBA teams are filled with them. Maybe not a power forward like Bonner, but players like Kyle Kover, Ben Gordon, Mike Miller, etc. None of the players I've mentioned are known for playing defense, just like Bonner.

That's a very important point that gets glossed over.

Specialist are fine, every championship team needs 'em. But look at those specialist you mentioned and the position they play, though Miller and Gordon are only one-dimensional when thinking offense/defense and not what they're capable of doing offensively. But I digress.

Horry, 'Sheed, maybe you want to throw a guy like Perkins in there, Laimbeer maybe, a few others, those are the type of bigs that have success stretching the floor from the front court of championship-caliber teams. They're players that are legitimately "bigs" and can man the paint and get the dirty work done for a team. Whether you've got someone who can shoot the 3 or not, the big man responsibilities still exist and someone's got to get the job done if your 4/5 can't.

It'd be one thing if the Spurs had some kind of Kirilenko-type at the three that defended and rebounded the ball like a big man (protecting the rim and whatnot), but they don't. Not even close.

Bonner's simply a role player that's too talented to be a fifth big and not talented enough to be anything more for a team with championship aspirations.

I believe that's the problem and dilemma Pop has trouble reconciling with and the reason Bonner's probably going to have to get dealt if this team wants to win it all -- I don't think Pop can keep himself from going to that Bonner well if he's there at his disposal.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The sooner Tiago can get significant minutes the better.

I'm scared Udoka will start getting Finley minutes, let alone Bonner.

[jjktkk]

None of them are expected to guard bigs. That's exactly why they can do without the defense. Kyle Korver or Mike Miller wouldn't be in the NBA right now if they had to guard Dirk, Gasol, Garnett, etc. They simply don't have that much offense to offset what they would give up on the other end.

Duncan has trouble guarding Dirk, Gasol, and Garnett. Should Pop trade him?

You think Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Vince Carter, are gonna shake in their boots, when being defended by Mike, Miller, Kyle Kover, etc...?

[TJastal]

Most coaches in the NFL and NBA are worried about rookies hitting the "rookie wall". Guess you never heard of that term. It is a legitimate concern for coaches.

Oh, so now all rookies should be restricted to 30 games or less just in case they might "hit a wall"? Seriously?

Did it ever occur to you that hitting a wall is all a part of the learning process that alot of young players need to go through in order to grow as players? All your doing by restricting Splitter's development is postponing the day he'll be able to make a significant contribution. And in the spurs' case how many years do they have? Last time I checked, not many.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

That's a very important point that gets glossed over.

Specialist are fine, every championship team needs 'em. But look at those specialist you mentioned and the position they play, though Miller and Gordon are only one-dimensional when thinking offense/defense and not what they're capable of doing offensively. But I digress.

Horry, 'Sheed, maybe you want to throw a guy like Perkins in there, Laimbeer maybe, a few others, those are the type of bigs that have success stretching the floor from the front court of championship-caliber teams. They're players that are legitimately "bigs" and can man the paint and get the dirty work done for a team. Whether you've got someone who can shoot the 3 or not, the big man responsibilities still exist and someone's got to get the job done if your 4/5 can't.

It'd be one thing if the Spurs had some kind of Kirilenko-type at the three that defended and rebounded the ball like a big man (protecting the rim and whatnot), but they don't. Not even close.

Bonner's simply a role player that's too talented to be a fifth big and not talented enough to be anything more for a team with championship aspirations.

I believe that's the problem and dilemma Pop has trouble reconciling with and the reason Bonner's probably going to have to get dealt if this team wants to win it all -- I don't think Pop can keep himself from going to that Bonner well if he's there at his disposal.

Which is one of the biggest flaws of Pop's career: Giving significant minutes to insignificant players. Bonner should be a situational player, not a big who seems to be getting solid minutes regardless of the matchup. The Spurs need to win with size, Bonner is like an oversized one dimensional shooting guard, who can only shoot decently against sub .500 teams half the time.

Same held true for Finley, Bogans, Udoka, and Roger Mason.

:bang

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Duncan has trouble guarding Dirk, Gasol, and Garnett. Should Pop trade him?

You think Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Vince Carter, are gonna shake in their boots, when being defended by Mike, Miller, Kyle Kover, etc...?


No, but all of those players bring more to the table than Bonner. I'd take Kover and Miller any day of the week and twice on Sunday over Bonner. Bonner will never ever be a reliable player in the clutch. The biggest scare about even extending Bonner for the veteran's minimum is Pop's love affair with one dimensional players and over using them. Bonner shouldn't be getting many more minutes than Gary Neal. When Matt's in the game it feels like small ball due to his poor rebounding.

[jjktkk]

That's a very important point that gets glossed over.

Specialist are fine, every championship team needs 'em. But look at those specialist you mentioned and the position they play, though Miller and Gordon are only one-dimensional when thinking offense/defense and not what they're capable of doing offensively. But I digress.

Horry, 'Sheed, maybe you want to throw a guy like Perkins in there, Laimbeer maybe, a few others, those are the type of bigs that have success stretching the floor from the front court of championship-caliber teams. They're players that are legitimately "bigs" and can man the paint and get the dirty work done for a team. Whether you've got someone who can shoot the 3 or not, the big man responsibilities still exist and someone's got to get the job done if your 4/5 can't.

It'd be one thing if the Spurs had some kind of Kirilenko-type at the three that defended and rebounded the ball like a big man (protecting the rim and whatnot), but they don't. Not even close.

Bonner's simply a role player that's too talented to be a fifth big and not talented enough to be anything more for a team with championship aspirations.

I believe that's the problem and dilemma Pop has trouble reconciling with and the reason Bonner's probably going to have to get dealt if this team wants to win it all -- I don't think Pop can keep himself from going to that Bonner well if he's there at his disposal.

Valid points. The main problem IMO, is that Pop doesn't have a legitimate 4 that can play 30 or more minutes a game and put up solid numbers(20/10). As well as defend his position. If he did, I truly believe we would never see Bonner getting more than 15-20 a game. May be Splitter can eventually be that guy.

[jjktkk]

No, but all of those players bring more to the table than Bonner. I'd take Kover and Miller any day of the week and twice on Sunday over Bonner. Bonner will never ever be a reliable player in the clutch. The biggest scare about even extending Bonner for the veteran's minimum is Pop's love affair with one dimensional players and over using them. Bonner shouldn't be getting many more minutes than Gary Neal. When Matt's in the game it feels like small ball due to his poor rebounding.

Valid points. But until Pop finds a reliable starting PF, I don't see anything changing. A PF that can average close to 20/10, play 30 minutes, and defend his position. Until he does, I'm afraid Pop will overuse Bonner.

[TJastal]

Valid points. The main problem IMO, is that Pop doesn't have a legitimate 4 that can play 30 or more minutes a game and put up solid numbers(20/10). As well as defend his position. If he did, I truly believe we would never see Bonner getting more than 15-20 a game. May be Splitter can eventually be that guy.

LOL you're such a delusional tool. 20/10 are all star numbers you twit.

[jjktkk]

LOL you're such a delusional tool. 20/10 are all star numbers you twit.

Yea averaging 20 points is asking too much. My bad. But the Spurs do need to find a starting caliber PF. Until they do, we will probably see too much of Bonner.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Yea averaging 20 points is asking too much. My bad. But the Spurs do need to find a starting caliber PF. Until they do, we will probably see too much of Bonner.

We have a great starting frontline with any combination of Duncan/McDyess/Splitter.

Bonner and Blair should be fighting for garbage minutes and used for situational matchups aka very rarely.

I want to see Bonner do well, but even for the Raptors, him getting the minutes he's been getting is too much.

[ElNono]

Duncan has trouble guarding Dirk, Gasol, and Garnett. Should Pop trade him?

Define trouble? Duncan has guarded Gasol and Garnett incredibly well in his heyday. He is obviously declining now, but he can still bang and board.
Dirk is a different breed, because unlike the other two, he has more of a perimeter game, which obviously a big has more problems guarding.
You're really comparing Duncan, one of the premier defenders in the NBA with Bonner just to try to make a point?


You think Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Vince Carter, are gonna shake in their boots, when being defended by Mike, Miller, Kyle Kover, etc...?

No, they're not. But if they get around them, they still need to get past Noah, Bosh/Haslem, etc. instead of having an automatic layup. And if they miss, there are actual bigs to rebound the ball inside. Again, you're comparing apples to oranges when it comes perimeter vs interior.

[ALVAREZ6]

I've never seen Gordon as a lock down defender going back to his college days at UCONN, nor with Chicago and Detroit. Great scorer, but nothing special on the defensive end.

Exactly, he's good at scoring....in many different ways. He's a quick, athletic guard with a dangerous mid-range game and 3-ball. Shooting great this year with 27.7 minutes per game, 14 points, 51.4% FG and 46% 3PT.


Bonner just brings you 3s..sometimes...

[ElNono]

Bonner doesn't play over 30 minutes a game. I don't see why his replacement should either. And Bonner doesn't give you 20 ppg either, so I don't see why his replacement should do that. Between Blair and Dice I can see where they can give you 10 boards combined. You need 9 ppg to replace Bonner's offensive contribution this season.

[Blackjack]

Valid points. The main problem IMO, is that Pop doesn't have a legitimate 4 that can play 30 or more minutes a game and put up solid numbers(20/10). As well as defend his position. If he did, I truly believe we would never see Bonner getting more than 15-20 a game. May be Splitter can eventually be that guy.

I don't even think Pop believes that. I mean, Blair's a 4 in Pop's eyes and he's a believer in he and Duncan as a tandem because of Blair's passing.

And really, it's not about whether the player's a 4 or 5 in a technical sense, it's simply about defensive capability. And if Duncan could defend the 4 as well as he did just a few years ago, before we started to see the real decline in mobility, there's no reason Splitter can't do the same. He's got great feet and can certainly do a better job than Bonner -- and 'Dyess has never been anything but a power forward. He's manned the center out of necessity but he's always been a 4.

I think Pop and a lot of us conditioned ourselves to the thinking that Tim and the Spurs had to have the spacing of a shooting 4. But how soon we all forget that this team won 2 titles before Horry arrived, and that Horry wasn't some designated sniper or Steve Kerr at the 4. Spacing can come from anywhere and any position. Rebounding and defense? Not so much -- that's why shooting 4s are seen as unique and are coveted by a fair amount of teams and coaches.

Sometimes you've just got to get back to basics and not overthink it.

[ElNono]

Cue the 'but he spaces the floor'... :lol

[jjktkk]

I don't even think Pop believes that. I mean, Blair's a 4 in Pop's eyes and he's a believer in he and Duncan as a tandem because of Blair's passing.

And really, it's not about whether the player's a 4 or 5 in a technical sense, it's simply about defensive capability. And if Duncan could defend the 4 as well as he did just a few years ago, before we started to see the real decline in mobility, there's no reason Splitter can't do the same. He's got great feet and can certainly do a better job than Bonner -- and 'Dyess has never been anything but a power forward. He's manned the center out of necessity but he's always been a 4.

I think Pop and a lot of us conditioned ourselves to the thinking that Tim and the Spurs had to have the spacing of a shooting 4. But how soon we all forget that this team won 2 titles before Horry arrived, and that Horry wasn't some designated sniper or Steve Kerr at the 4. Spacing can come from anywhere and any position. Rebounding and defense? Not so much -- that's why shooting 4s are seen as unique and are coveted by a fair amount of teams and coaches.

Sometimes you've just got to get back to basics and not overthink it.

Hopefully Splitter can help the Spurs get back to basics.

[TJastal]

Exactly, he's good at scoring....in many different ways. He's a quick, athletic guard with a dangerous mid-range game and 3-ball. Shooting great this year with 27.7 minutes per game, 14 points, 51.4% FG and 46% 3PT.


Bonner just brings you 3s..sometimes...

So far, Bonner is 3-24 inside the arc. But at least he hasn't made a turnover yet!!

:lmao

[Blackjack]

Hopefully Splitter can help the Spurs get back to basics.

Here's hoping. :tu

[objective]

I think Pop and a lot of us conditioned ourselves to the thinking that Tim and the Spurs had to have the spacing of a shooting 4. But how soon we all forget that this team won 2 titles before Horry arrived, and that Horry wasn't some designated sniper or Steve Kerr at the 4. Spacing can come from anywhere and any position. Rebounding and defense? Not so much -- that's why shooting 4s are seen as unique and are coveted by a fair amount of teams and coaches.

Sometimes you've just got to get back to basics and not overthink it.

Some of us never fell prey to the conditioning (07-06-07 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1836025)):


Spurs did just fine in 03 with Robinson, Rose, and Willis next to Duncan.

Besides, just because Bonner can hit threes doesn't make him like Horry at all.

There is no equality between the Duncan/Horry combo and Duncan/Bonner combo.

And more on the floor spreading 4 from 2007: (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1835795)


just because Bonner can shoot 3s, doesn't make him a legit Horry replacement. Bonner will never get 5 blocks in a finals game. Bonner will never grab 9 rebounds in the first half of a finals game. Bonner will never be dependable to force multiple turnovers on inbounds passes with his crafty plays.

The only thing Bonner does even close to Horry is shoot from long range, and he's never done that in the clutch, ever.

Now I'm not bashing Bonner with this. He is who he is.

I'm not blaming him for a loss to a very good team like the Mavs. Spurs weren't going to go 81-1, Ginobili's nose got bloodied up again apparently, and other players also played poorly like Parker and Jefferson. Neal had turnovers, McDyess looked like he was limping around in the second half, Duncan wasn't all-star Duncan, and so forth.

Just recognizing that Bonner is who he is. The only thing that's changed at all from my posts from July of 2007 is that since then Bonner has massively failed in the playoffs. But everything else was already known: Horry didn't just spread the floor, Horry played awesome defense when he was on. He got incredible steals. He had blocks. He got under player's skin with his dirtyness. He could pass. He could score other than just threes. And so on, the intangibles and things that weren't in box scores like Plus/Minus excuse stats.

Bonner has never and will never be able to do any of that. And that's not even considering clutch threes. And I mean playoff clutch threes, not November games against lottery teams.

In the regular season, he can hit threes.

In the playoffs, if he's getting minutes ahead of Splitter or McDyess or even Blair, that's a bad idea unless there's a match-up just screaming for it. He just can't do enough in the other areas of the game to justify him getting time. I just don't see it.

[SenorSpur]

So far, Bonner is 3-24 inside the arc. But at least he hasn't made a turnover yet!!

:lmao

Whenever Bonner attempts to shoot off the dribble or with his left hand, consider it a turnover. :lol

[ploto]

Hopefully Splitter can help the Spurs get back to basics.

I hope so, but there is a whole line of big men about whom fans thought the same. I was never quite sure why people thought it would be any different for Splitter. That is why so many did not want Bonner on the team. Pop can't resist.

[Mugen]

if scoring the go ahead 3 against the T-Wolves in a early regular season game isnt clutch, then i dont know what is.

[TJastal]

if scoring the go ahead 3 against the T-Wolves in a early regular season game isnt clutch, then i dont know what is.

Great for Bonner. He can shoot clutch 3's against .250 teams like the timberwolves. His huevos must be huge!

:lol

[Agloco]

if scoring the go ahead 3 against the T-Wolves in a early regular season game isnt clutch, then i dont know what is.


Great for Bonner. He can shoot clutch 3's against .250 teams like the timberwolves. His huevos must be huge!

:lol

Somebody missed the boat......

[Blackjack]

As it pertains to Bonner, objective, we've always been on the same page.

I would have preferred a healthy 'Sheed to someone like Gortat for the short-term and as a fit on the team, but that's because he happened to be one of the best interior defenders in the league.

And you're dead-on about Horry. The guy hit clutch shots and was capable of spreading the court because of the respect borne from that, but the guy wasn't ever really a "shooter." He was so much more -- his IQ was off the charts and he could affect the game on a multitude of levels.

Bonner's playing the Steve Kerr role at the 4, only he's being depended upon more, he's incapable of fulfilling the role of a championship-caliber big man, and his biggest strength (shooting), has found it's self either disappearing when the chips are down or being taken away -- and his effectiveness being negated by the opponent running him off the line.

I will cop to one thing, though, I honestly believed Pop would find his way back to his core defensive principles once he had the type of talent he does now on the frontline. I wasn't all that upset with the Bonner deal because I figured it was to lock up a rotation big for next year and beyond when 'Dyess is gone and I convinced myself Bonner wouldn't maintain the role he'd assumed in recent years.

There's still time for Pop to reward my faith in him. ... But it ain't looking good.

[SA210]

So far, Bonner is 3-24 inside the arc. But at least he hasn't made a turnover yet!!

:lmao

That's about 21 turnovers :lol

[TJastal]

Somebody missed the boat......

You mean the blue? I see that now, and thx for pointing it out. Tends to happen when you've been posting for 13.5 hours straight. :coffee

[jjktkk]

That's about 21 turnovers :lol

You got to love Tjastal's effort. Hes the Matt Bonner of Spurstalk, but without the jumshot.

[TJastal]

That's about 21 turnovers :lol

Your going to hold him to the gold-star standard? I'll cut him a little slack, and say out of those 21 running hooks/flips/set shots/whateverthefuckyouwannacallits he didn't make, about 10 were good shots within the offense, and the other 10 were basically forced turnovers.

[TJastal]

You got to love Tjastal's effort. Hes the Matt Bonner of Spurstalk, but without the jumshot.

Fear me.

[SA210]

Your going to hold him to the gold-star standard? I'll cut him a little slack, and say out of those 21 running hooks/flips/set shots/whateverthefuckyouwannacallits he didn't make, about 10 were good shots within the offense, and the other 10 were basically forced turnovers.

I was just saying he shouldn't be taking those shots off the dribble. It hardly ever turns out good. :bang

[Mel_13]

Tends to happen when you've been posting for 13.5 hours straight. :coffee

Spend 30 minutes a night here:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm


Fear me.
Just as opposing defenses fear Matty B.

[TJastal]

Spend 30 minutes a night here:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Maybe when they restructure all the rules I'll bother with it.


Just as opposing defenses fear Matty B.

Ahh, Matt Barnes. Good comparison. :toast

[Blackjack]

With all due respect to Chump, drink! :drunk

[Mel_13]

Maybe when they restructure all the rules I'll bother with it.

In the meantime you'll remain blissfully ignorant...




Ahh, Matt Barnes. Good comparison. :toast
Drink!

[Agloco]

You got to love Tjastal's effort. Hes the Matt Bonner of Spurstalk, but without the jumshot.

:lol

And the legend grows......

You never have to wait very long for a gem to appear with that guy.

[jjktkk]

:lol

And the legend grows......

You never have to wait very long for a gem to appear with that guy.

So true. Rumor has it, that Tjastal is actually former Spurs coach Bob Hill.

[KaiRMD1]

I think Bonner should only get a lot of minutes if he's hot but the second he jacks up a couple bricks, pop needs to bench. I'm sorry to say this but Bonner's only good use is when the guy is on fire on offense. Defense? Pop needs to work with him over the summer for that to improve. But if guy sucks on offense, it's time to go with the defensive big and put Splitter in. There's a reason that the guy was MVP of the Spanish league.

[dn0774]

I would rather see Bonner shoot a highly contested 3 than pumpfake>dribble penetration>shoot a running uncontested hook/floater in the lane.

Bonner should be used exclusively for 2 things...spreading the floor/heat check for 5 mins a half and giving hard fouls or antagonizing opposition (Danny Ferry style) when need be. If he catches fire then great, give him some extra run...other wise send him back to bench.

I actually think there is a small but important role for Bonner on this team and his presence can be an asset situationally speaking. He's the basketball equivalent of a pinch hitter.

[TJastal]

I would rather see Bonner shoot a highly contested 3 than pumpfake>dribble penetration>shoot a running uncontested hook/floater in the lane.

Bonner should be used exclusively for 2 things...spreading the floor/heat check for 5 mins a half and giving hard fouls or antagonizing opposition (Danny Ferry style) when need be. If he catches fire then great, give him some extra run...other wise send him back to bench.

I actually think there is a small but important role for Bonner on this team and his presence can be an asset situationally speaking. He's the basketball equivalent of a pinch hitter.

"hard foul" and "bonner" really aren't synergistic terms. "udoka" might be more fitting here.

[SenorSpur]

I would rather see Bonner shoot a highly contested 3 than pumpfake>dribble penetration>shoot a running uncontested hook/floater in the lane.

Bonner should be used exclusively for 2 things...spreading the floor/heat check for 5 mins a half and giving hard fouls or antagonizing opposition (Danny Ferry style) when need be. If he catches fire then great, give him some extra run...other wise send him back to bench.

I actually think there is a small but important role for Bonner on this team and his presence can be an asset situationally speaking. He's the basketball equivalent of a pinch hitter.

Obviously, the book is out on Bonner, as opponents are chasing him off the arc and forcing him to put the ball on the floor. Imagine the horror I felt when watching Bonner take a few dribbles inside the arc and shoot a double-clutch midrange shot. Or taking the ball across the lane and attempting a left-handed shot. Bonner isn't at his best taking creative shots.

[Agloco]

Obviously, the book is out on Bonner, as opponents are chasing him off the arc and forcing him to put the ball on the floor. Imagine the horror I felt when watching Bonner take a few dribbles inside the arc and shoot a double-clutch midrange shot. Or taking the ball across the lane and attempting a left-handed shot. Bonner isn't at his best taking creative shots.

Yeah anytime Bonner touches the ball for more than 2 seconds, disaster is sure to follow in short order.

[dn0774]

"hard foul" and "bonner" really aren't synergistic terms. "udoka" might be more fitting here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FASClJTnJ4I

3 mins 15 sec...he is capable of hard fouls.

[angelbelow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FASClJTnJ4I

3 mins 15 sec...he is capable of hard fouls.

Ive said this before, but I think a mean streak would really benefit him. Hes always joking around off court so Im not sure if he really has it in him.. but I would love to see Bonner commit some hard fouls on defense.

[99-03-05-07]

if bonner isn't making shots we should sit him, splitter is easily a better all-round player

[The Truth #6]

Hill could use a mean streak too. But then they probably wouldn't be Spurs.

[DieHardSpursFan1537]

Bonner deserves 2 minutes of play at the most. All he does is shoot 3's. Can't rebound either. Bench him Pop...............for the whole game. Please bring in Blair, Dice, or Splitter to eat up his minutes.

[DieHardSpursFan1537]

Well, I dunno about Blair.....

[Johnny RIngo]

Bonner deserves 2 minutes of play at the most. All he does is shoot 3's. Can't rebound either. Bench him Pop...............for the whole game. Please bring in Blair, Dice, or Splitter to eat up his minutes.

You're exaggerating if you think he only deserves 2 minutes. I'm not a fan of Bonner but he's useful for about 10-15 minutes and occasionally gives us a timely three against the weaker clubs. He should NOT be closing out games though. Unfortunately, Bonner has become something of a crutch for Pop who believes he'll make those threes every time he steps on the court.

[jjktkk]

you're exaggerating if you think he only deserves 2 minutes. I'm not a fan of bonner but he's useful for about 10-15 minutes and occasionally gives us a timely three against the weaker clubs. He should not be closing out games though. Unfortunately, bonner has become something of a crutch for pop who believes he'll make those threes every time he steps on the court.

+1

[angelbelow]

Hill could use a mean streak too. But then they probably wouldn't be Spurs.

Well, Hill doesnt really need a mean streak, he can contribute in many other ways.

At this point Bonner isnt going to suddenly become a better rebounder, a better defender, or a more well rounded scorer. Therefore, he should use his body as a tool and commit some hard fouls. Then maybe players won't light up with confidence when they're being defended by Bonner.

[ElNono]

Therefore, he should use his body as a tool and commit some hard fouls. Then maybe players won't light up with confidence when they're being defended by Bonner.

It's just not in him. It's not who he is. It's like asking Manu to suddenly start talking trash or Tim to start pounding his chest after every basket. There might be the occasional outburst, but in general people are who they are.

As a basketball player, I much rather Matt learns how to take charges. Splitter has already shown he knows how to do it. Horry had that down too. Oberto knew how to flop when needed also. I much rather he gets called for a foul trying to take a charge and draw a foul than do the ole walk backwards which pretty much always ends up on a foul on him, and sometimes with an and1 for the offensive player. That he can work on, and he can remain the nice guy he is.

[angelbelow]

It's just not in him. It's not who he is. It's like asking Manu to suddenly start talking trash or Tim to start pounding his chest after every basket. There might be the occasional outburst, but in general people are who they are.

As a basketball player, I much rather Matt learns how to take charges. Splitter has already shown he knows how to do it. Horry had that down too. Oberto knew how to flop when needed also. I much rather he gets called for a foul trying to take a charge and draw a foul than do the ole walk backwards which pretty much always ends up on a foul on him, and sometimes with an and1 for the offensive player. That he can work on, and he can remain the nice guy he is.

Manu does something that's more effective than talk trash. He gets under the skin of his opponents. Duncan does many things right and contributes in many areas, he doesnt need to pound his chest to be effective.

Taking charges is an art, its not something that can be easily learned. Players who lead the league in charges year after year are consistently the same.

I agree that he probably doesnt have it in him though, but imagine how much it would if Bonner had the enforcer label.

[jjktkk]

Manu does something that's more effective than talk trash. He gets under the skin of his opponents. Duncan does many things right and contributes in many areas, he doesnt need to pound his chest to be effective.

Taking charges is an art, its not something that can be easily learned. Players who lead the league in charges year after year are consistently the same.

I agree that he probably doesnt have it in him though, but imagine how much it would if Bonner had the enforcer label.


Or how about Bonner taking it to the rack and throwing one down? :ihit

[angelbelow]

Or how about Bonner taking it to the rack and throwing one down? :ihit

Committing a hard foul is easier than taking the ball to the rack and throwing it down, don't you think?