Principal Bans Marine Uniform at Graduation

[Clandestino]

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LAST UPDATE: 5/20/2005 9:40:12 AM
Posted By: CyberBob
This story is available on your cell phone at mobile.woai.com.

A heartbreaking story out of Santa Rosa, California that questions the patriotism of some school administrators. The Press Democrat reports that many high schools are banning military uniforms from graduation ceremonies.

Steven Kiernan, 17, has a dream of graduating with his Petaluma High class dressed in his Marine dress uniform. So he worked ahead of his class and actually completed all his required coursework AND boot camp before the graduation ceremony.

But principal Mike Simpson is trying to squash that dream. According to Simpson, if Kiernan wants to receive his diploma at the June 11 commencement, he'll have to wear a cap and gown – not his Marine uniform.

The decision at Petaluma High is similar to others playing out at high schools across the country in the weeks leading up to graduation. School leaders are fielding requests from new military recruits who want to walk in uniform to receive diplomas.

Families, proud of the new commitment made by their children, are troubled and sometimes angry that their requests are denied.

"Seniors graduate as a class. It's an honor to be a member of the graduating class. Becoming a Marine is also an honor, but it is a separate honor," Simpson told the Press Democrat.

The cap and gown requirement does not preclude Kiernan from wearing his uniform under the gown.

"Sometimes they wear the gown over the uniform, which is OK, as long as the uniform is completely covered," said Gunnery Sgt. Michael Williams, a former Marine recruiter for Sonoma County. "Then the Marines pull off the gown quickly afterward. But that's usually not what the parents want."

Earlier this week, two new teen Marines from Warren Township High School outside Chicago won the right to graduate in uniform when their school board changed school policy to allow students in the military to wear uniforms.

Simpson does not want to make such change in Petaluma.

For now, the Kiernan family will concentrate on Steven's first graduation - from Marine boot camp, which he excitedly noted in his last letter home Wednesday:

"Hi Family! Buy the plane tickets and reserve the hotel room because I survived the Crucible and ain't nothin' stoppin' me from graduating on June 1st," he wrote.

The Kiernan family said they understand the school's position, but said an exception should be made, particularly because the nation is at war in Iraq.

[CommanderMcBragg]

That is just plain stupid.

[IcemanCometh]

if he wanted to wear a chicken suit would you support him?

[Experiment2100]

A more easy analogy would be if he were going straight to a job and wanted just to wear a suit instead of a gown, would you support him?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So much for free speech, huh?

It figures this would happen in California.

[ClintSquint]

http://img142.echo.cx/img142/5637/wtfplzbauer8rm.gif
"What The........"

[ChumpDumper]

So much for free speech, huh?He can write "Look! I'm a Marine!" using masking tape on his cap like everyone else. Otherwise, wear the uniform under the gown. BFD. His uniform isn't banned, so the topic title is completely misleading -- it should read: Gowns Required by Principal at Graduation. The horror.

[Mr Dio]

Earlier this week, two new teen Marines from Warren Township High School outside Chicago won the right to graduate in uniform when their school board changed school policy to allow students in the military to wear uniforms.
Simpson does not want to make such change in Petaluma.

Simpson, YOU SUCK!
I don't see a prob w/him wearing the cap & gown & the millisecond he gets his diploma he rips it off & dons the uniform he earned. Most can never & will never understand what it is like be a Marine. That is why you'll see some comments like those above.
Join the Corps, earn the title & then I'd bet your tunes change.

[violentkitten]

thanks son for signing up to serve this country. while most were smoking out and knocking up their girlfriends you opted to serve your country and go through boot camp. we cant have that. so you must wear this black garbage bag that signifies that you're the product of a public school system that would otherwise have you destined for a life of menial employment.

america. fuck. yeah.

[desflood]

Ha! For once, VK, you and I had exactly the same thought.

[CosmicCowboy]

I was under the impression that the various branches of the military had specific rules about where class A uniforms could and couldn't be worn and this one doesn't seem to qualify...and correct me if I am wrong...he wanted to wear the uniform INSTEAD of his cap and gown? Isn't the marine corp all about conforming and being part of the group? I doubt the Marine Corp would like it very much if he showed up for maneuvers in his class A's instead of the "uniform of the day"...

[JoeChalupa]

Simpson, YOU SUCK!
I don't see a prob w/him wearing the cap & gown & the millisecond he gets his diploma he rips it off & dons the uniform he earned. Most can never & will never understand what it is like be a Marine. That is why you'll see some comments like those above.
Join the Corps, earn the title & then I'd bet your tunes change.

Semper Fi!!

[Mr Dio]

Isn't the marine corp all about conforming and being part of the group?

Negative sir. That would be sheep you're speaking of. Marines learn to exercise discipline & that entails following orders or accomplishing the mission/task at hand.

[Experiment2100]

Negative sir. That would be sheep you're speaking of. Marines learn to exercise discipline & that entails following orders or accomplishing the mission/task at hand.


He has the orders to not wear his uniform so why is he bitching

[Mr Dio]

"Sometimes they wear the gown over the uniform, which is OK, as long as the uniform is completely covered," said Gunnery Sgt. Michael Williams, a former Marine recruiter for Sonoma County. "Then the Marines pull off the gown quickly afterward. But that's usually not what the parents want."

Actually, he CAN wear the gown over the uniform completely covered. Like I said, earn the uniform & you'd know what this guy feels like.

[mookie2001]

i dont see the difference if he's wants to wear a pantera t shirt or marine uniform, he wants to stand out, be orginal and have people look at him, which i have no problem with but usually schools are pretty lame about

[Experiment2100]

i dont see the difference if he's wants to wear a pantera t shirt or marine uniform, he wants to stand out, be orginal and have people look at him, which i have no problem with but usually schools are pretty lame about


ESPECIALLY graduation, when I graduated, a whole 2 years ago, they held your diploma hostage, if you did anything short of sneezing onstage, you didn't get it. You couldn't even raise your hands onstage or wave.(sp?)

[Mark in Austin]

Quick! Somebody get the ACLU on the phone. This sounds like a first ammendment case.

Seriously, though, is there some long standing tradition of letting members of the military graduate in their dress uniforms from high school? If so, then I could see how this might be a story, especially if it is used to be allowed at this particular school. If this guy wants to wear it, fine. But under the cap and gown like everybody else. There were almost 700 in my graduating class, and we all wore caps and gowns. Some of us had suits on underneath, some had casual clothes. One guy I knew wore a tux. But the gown was over all of it. It's not the school's fault if he made the assumption that he could do this without checking ahead of time.

As far as "A heartbreaking story out of Santa Rosa, California that questions the patriotism of some school administrators. " Could we please pander a little more to the right? Please?

A heartbreaking story is your son going to war and not coming back. A heartbreaking story is your daughter getting killed by a roadside bomb when she was in Iraq doing humanitarian work. A heartbreaking story is your wife being kidnapped and killed after spending years in Iraq working for the betterment of the people there.

This might be disappointing for young Mr. Kiernan, but lets get a little perspective here folks.

[Mr Dio]

A heartbreaking story is your son going to war and not coming back. A heartbreaking story is your daughter getting killed by a roadside bomb when she was in Iraq doing humanitarian work. A heartbreaking story is your wife being kidnapped and killed after spending years in Iraq working for the betterment of the people there.

You're right! What was I thinking! Of course there is NO WAY this MARINE could go to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... I don't pretend to know his MOS but the past 18months or so should show us that all members of our armed forces are targets..Whether eating @ their secured base, driving in a convoy or on patrol. But HEY!, that's just until they are actually killed right?

[Experiment2100]

You're right! What was I thinking! Of course there is NO WAY this MARINE could go to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... I don't pretend to know his MOS but the past 18months or so should show us that all members of our armed forces are targets..Whether eating @ their secured base, driving in a convoy or on patrol. But HEY!, that's just until they are actually killed right?


I don't know if you got this, but he was saying that this situation is not a "heartbreaking story," which it isn't

[Clandestino]

if he wanted to wear a chicken suit would you support him?

you compare a chicken suit to a marine uniform?

[Clandestino]

I was under the impression that the various branches of the military had specific rules about where class A uniforms could and couldn't be worn and this one doesn't seem to qualify...and correct me if I am wrong...he wanted to wear the uniform INSTEAD of his cap and gown? Isn't the marine corp all about conforming and being part of the group? I doubt the Marine Corp would like it very much if he showed up for maneuvers in his class A's instead of the "uniform of the day"...

no, not really. and the class a is not the uniform everyone thinks of when they think of marine uniform. those are called "dress blues." the class a is just like a suit...similiar to the green uniform you see the army dressed up in all the time on tv.

[Clandestino]

He has the orders to not wear his uniform so why is he bitching

civilians don't give orders.

[Clandestino]

Quick! Somebody get the ACLU on the phone. This sounds like a first ammendment case.

Seriously, though, is there some long standing tradition of letting members of the military graduate in their dress uniforms from high school? If so, then I could see how this might be a story, especially if it is used to be allowed at this particular school. If this guy wants to wear it, fine. But under the cap and gown like everybody else. There were almost 700 in my graduating class, and we all wore caps and gowns. Some of us had suits on underneath, some had casual clothes. One guy I knew wore a tux. But the gown was over all of it. It's not the school's fault if he made the assumption that he could do this without checking ahead of time.

As far as "A heartbreaking story out of Santa Rosa, California that questions the patriotism of some school administrators. " Could we please pander a little more to the right? Please?

A heartbreaking story is your son going to war and not coming back. A heartbreaking story is your daughter getting killed by a roadside bomb when she was in Iraq doing humanitarian work. A heartbreaking story is your wife being kidnapped and killed after spending years in Iraq working for the betterment of the people there.

This might be disappointing for young Mr. Kiernan, but lets get a little perspective here folks.

the aclu only protects rapists, pedophiles like nambla members, and the like.

[Experiment2100]

civilians don't give orders.

Figuratively.

[Mr Dio]

he was saying that this situation is not a "heartbreaking story," which it isn't

So it would only be heartbreaking if he goes off and gets KIA?

I think it is very sad that a Marine can't wear the uniform he EARNED while receiving the diploma he EARNED early.

[mookie2001]

the aclu only protects rapists, pedophiles like nambla members, and the like.


i strongly disagree. you're a dummy



they protect the constitution of united states of america

[Clandestino]

i dont see the difference if he's wants to wear a pantera t shirt or marine uniform, he wants to stand out, be orginal and have people look at him, which i have no problem with but usually schools are pretty lame about

you don't see a difference between a military uniform and t-shirt, but i'm the dummy?

[Experiment2100]

So it would only be heartbreaking if he goes off and gets KIA?

I think it is very sad that a Marine can't wear the uniform he EARNED while receiving the diploma he EARNED early.

No, let's say he's in Iraq and his family gets blown up in a silo explosion. That's heartbreaking as well. If he wears his uniform why can't someone accepted to UT wear their colors. They earned that. It's good that he is in the military but why should he be elevated above those that decided to be doctors, teachers, etc.. out of school.

[mookie2001]

which i have no problem with but usually schools are pretty lame about


i mean how can you tell kids than a military uniform is ok but a mailmans uniform is not, or a security guard

i agree those are very different uniforms but you cant tell kids that bullshit (who actually have none these jobs right now)

[Mr Dio]

It's good that he is in the military but why should he be elevated above those that decided to be doctors, teachers, etc.. out of school.

To my knowledge NONE of his classmates graduated early and have become any of those professions. He probably completed his classes in Dec '04 by going to summer school & doing who knows what else. THEN he went to boot camp & EARNED his uniform..he isn't asking to wear a suit that anybody can buy off a rack. You have to EARN that uniform. ONLY Marines would understand.

[Experiment2100]

To my knowledge NONE of his classmates graduated early and have become any of those professions. He probably completed his classes in Dec '04 by going to summer school & doing who knows what else. THEN he went to boot camp & EARNED his uniform..he isn't asking to wear a suit that anybody can buy off a rack. You have to EARN that uniform. ONLY Marines would understand.

Grandfather and Uncle both in Marines, one is a colonel. So I know a little about Semper Fidelis. He has earned the right to wear the uniform, but it's not fair to those that have decided to go different routes to be dicriminated like that.

[Mr Dio]

I wouldn't fit in ANY of my uniforms & I know a little about MCRD San Diego & I was in Saudi/Kuwait in from Aug '90 til Mar '91. Served from '87-'93. I will be the first to admit that my generation of Marines had it kinda easy compared to those of today & those before us. If a young man graduated early so that he could spend a nice vacation in Boot Camp & EARN the uniform that represents the COUNTRY I say let him wear it. He didn't do it for greed/fame, anyone know what an E-1 or even E-2, E-3, etc.. earn? We don't hear enough of these fine citizens til they die or are wounded.

[Clandestino]

exactly, none of his classmates have becomes doctors or lawyers, etc... they are still high school students. this guy is ALREADY a marine.

[Experiment2100]

To my knowledge NONE of his classmates graduated early and have become any of those professions. He probably completed his classes in Dec '04 by going to summer school & doing who knows what else. THEN he went to boot camp & EARNED his uniform..he isn't asking to wear a suit that anybody can buy off a rack. You have to EARN that uniform. ONLY Marines would understand.


Did he do all of that stuff early so he could wear it at graduation or is it just a bonus. It's nice that he's proud of the fact that he is a Marine, but it's not fair for the other students to make special concessions .

[Guru of Nothing]

Obviously, Steven Kiernan is white.

[dcole50]

exactly, none of his classmates have becomes doctors or lawyers, etc... they are still high school students. this guy is ALREADY a marine.

well, good for him but the school requires a cap and gown. why can't he wear that?

other kids have jobs i'm sure. they don't want kids wearing their wal mart uniforms, even though they are ALREADY wal mart employees.

[Mr Dio]

it's not fair for the other students to make special concessions .

Unless disqulaified anyone of his classmates can be a citizen & serve the country. Nothing special about it except that it takes courage.

[Guru of Nothing]

other kids have jobs i'm sure. they don't want kids wearing their wal mart uniforms, even though they are ALREADY wal mart employees.

And therein lies the conflict. You regard active duty in the Marines as mere job, akin to stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.

Antagonism is not a respectable philosophy.

[dcole50]

i was responding to clandestino's comparison of a marine to a doctor or lawyer. his argument appears to be that the student should be able to wear the unifrom because he is already a marine. if we're arguing that you can only wear a uniform if you have "already" entered a position where that atire is appropriate, then i don't see how my response is invalid.

i just don't see why he can't wear a cap and gown like every student.

[Guru of Nothing]

i just don't see why he can't wear a cap and gown like every student.

Personally, I am never in favor of the person who seeks extra attention.

I do like your notion that all people should abide by the same set of rules though - if you were a democrat, you'd be atypical.

[Guru of Nothing]

his argument appears to be that the student should be able to wear the unifrom because he is already a marine. if we're arguing that you can only wear a uniform if you have "already" entered a position where that atire is appropriate, then i don't see how my response is invalid.


I think his argument was that this person was an exception to the rule because he is risking his life with a commitment to combat.

Don't be so obtuse.

[blaze89]

The Marine can wear his uniform underneath the gown. Once the ceremony is over, he can remove the gown and take photos, celebrate and be proud of what he has accomplished.

This isn't a "heartbreaking story", it's written in a way to develop "faux rage" - to make a huge issue of something that shouldn't be an issue.

From reading this article, the parents are making more of a case about it than the graduate. It's somewhat typical, the parents want their children to stand out, so they can show what their child has accomplished.

He can wear his uniform underneath, the Gunnery Sargent says it's OK.

He's only going to graduate high school once, he's gonna be a Marine for the rest of his life.

I just wonder, why the question one's patriotism over this issue?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think the whole debate is stupid. If he wants to show off his uniform, then he can do it outside of school time. The army has its rules, the school has a set of its own. You wouldn't go to a military school and demand that you could wear a Boy Scout uniform to the graduation just because you're so fucking proud of it. You'd probably get your ass kicked and not graduate at all, specially if you went public with the matter. This guy should shut the fuck up and graduate. After that, he can wear his marine uniform while he's having sex for all I care.

[NameDropper]

He's only going to graduate high school once, he's gonna be a Marine for the rest of his life.

I just wonder, why the question one's patriotism over this issue?

Rumor has it he'll be a HS graduate for the rest of his life too.

[Clandestino]

why can't the school(s) just make an exception. a military person serves the united states. the other jobs you have mentioned do not. and this is actually a pretty common practice. when i was in basic training we had plenty of recruits that went to basic between their jr and sr years of high school. they would go to basic during the summer and then be reservists while in high school.

[ClintSquint]

Why have rules if you are going to make exceptions?

[ClintSquint]

why can't the school(s) just make an exception. a military person serves the united states. the other jobs you have mentioned do not. and this is actually a pretty common practice. when i was in basic training we had plenty of recruits that went to basic between their jr and sr years of high school. they would go to basic during the summer and then be reservists while in high school.

When I was in bootcamp we were all HS graduates and didn't have any kid going to bootcamp during the summer. WTF!?

[Clandestino]

When I was in bootcamp we were all HS graduates and didn't have any kid going to bootcamp during the summer. WTF!?

basic training is co-ed now! people were banging on ftx! hahah! that was back in '95

[ClintSquint]

basic training is co-ed now! people were banging on ftx! hahah! that was back in '95

Co-ed training? In the Corps!? Say it ain't so!

[Mr Dio]

I just wonder, why the question one's patriotism over this issue?

See GoN's post, he is entering a job where he is risking his life in service of the USA.


Say it ain't so

Not on the West Coast, only on the East.


Rumor has it he'll be a HS graduate for the rest of his life too.

Unless he gets the GI Bill so when he gets out of the Corps he gets his degree(s) like quite a few others I know. A couple of the guys that were in my unit did just that & went back in the Corps as an Officer. I think the saying is something like, "God, Country & Corps." You most likely couldn't understand unless you served.

[ChumpDumper]

God, Country & CorpsThe country told him to wear his gown.

Get over your photo op selves.

[Mark in Austin]

some of you are so eager to work yourselves into righteous indignation over percieved slights. And the overtone is always that you are somehow unamerican if you don't agree. That's complete horseshit, and you know it.

My family is a military family. I would say I have a better appreciation than most for the incredible sacrifices these men and women make. One of the commonalities I recognize in a lot of the finest is that they just want to do their job, serve their country, help their fellow servicemen and women. They didn't get into it for glory and recognition, and really try to play it down and deflect the attention when it is focused too much on themselves instead of the unit.

It's called humility. Some of you should look it up.

You act like this is a case of discrimination against a Marine. In fact, it is just the opposite. He is being asked to do what every other student has to do. No more, no less.

Feel free to keep wasting time and energy on this non-issue. Meanwhile, I'll go back to writing my Congressman asking for the VA to honor its promisses to our oldest vets and their families, and to make sure we are doing all we can to provide our curent troops in harm's way with the best equipment and training possible.

Didn't know I did that? It's because I don't spend my time and energy screaming how patriotic I am at everybody else, and judging others as not being patriotic enough.

Those of you closest to the military should realize how offensive it is to call this a heartbreaking story and spend this much bullshit time on it when every day there are real stories of heartbreak, sacrifice, courage, and honor taking place. Spend your time and energy honoring them. If this young man is indeed a Marine, he will say the same thing.

[Clandestino]

Co-ed training? In the Corps!? Say it ain't so!

no, in the army it is.

[MannyIsGod]

why can't the school(s) just make an exception. a military person serves the united states. the other jobs you have mentioned do not. and this is actually a pretty common practice. when i was in basic training we had plenty of recruits that went to basic between their jr and sr years of high school. they would go to basic during the summer and then be reservists while in high school.I now would like everyone to take a look at this:



why should she get a waiver? screw that... complete the requirements that everyone else does... i wanna see a picture of her...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15481&page=2&pp=26&highlight=pendja

[MannyIsGod]

Mark, you continue to climb up my list of favorite posters.

[Useruser666]

I know would like everyone to take a look at this:


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15481&page=2&pp=26&highlight=pendja

Damn Manny, you had the gun in your hand and yet again fire another blank! :lol

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

It's a conspiracy

[samikeyp]

Yeah but Manny, don't panic. Its just defense. :lol

[bigzak25]

much ado about nothing. blaze 89 said it best, walk the stage, graduate, then tear the gown off and take all the pics you want in your uniform and be proud.

[Clandestino]

of course manny would never support anything military related, but he supported that girl(referenced in the thread he quoted me from) and thought she should get a waiver.

so, a waiver for the girl who didn't complete all her stuff, but not one for the marine.

i see how you are...

[Clandestino]

some of you are so eager to work yourselves into righteous indignation over percieved slights. And the overtone is always that you are somehow unamerican if you don't agree. That's complete horseshit, and you know it.

My family is a military family. I would say I have a better appreciation than most for the incredible sacrifices these men and women make. One of the commonalities I recognize in a lot of the finest is that they just want to do their job, serve their country, help their fellow servicemen and women. They didn't get into it for glory and recognition, and really try to play it down and deflect the attention when it is focused too much on themselves instead of the unit.

It's called humility. Some of you should look it up.

You act like this is a case of discrimination against a Marine. In fact, it is just the opposite. He is being asked to do what every other student has to do. No more, no less.

Feel free to keep wasting time and energy on this non-issue. Meanwhile, I'll go back to writing my Congressman asking for the VA to honor its promisses to our oldest vets and their families, and to make sure we are doing all we can to provide our curent troops in harm's way with the best equipment and training possible.

Didn't know I did that? It's because I don't spend my time and energy screaming how patriotic I am at everybody else, and judging others as not being patriotic enough.

Those of you closest to the military should realize how offensive it is to call this a heartbreaking story and spend this much bullshit time on it when every day there are real stories of heartbreak, sacrifice, courage, and honor taking place. Spend your time and energy honoring them. If this young man is indeed a Marine, he will say the same thing.

this guy is extremely proud to be a marine. his has a small request to wear his uniform. he is not looking looking for glory or recognition either.

did you actually serve or were you just a military brat? if you didn't serve than you have no idea of the proud feeling.

btw, wtg on writing your congressman.

[MannyIsGod]

of course manny would never support anything military related, but he supported that girl(referenced in the thread he quoted me from) and thought she should get a waiver.

so, a waiver for the girl who didn't complete all her stuff, but not one for the marine.

i see how you are...
Actually, I didn't say I would or wouldn't support waivers in either situation. I was pointing out how you can't view things objectively.

You're a hypocrite. You sit back in one situation and admonish a girl who wants to override what the school wants to do, and in another situation do the exact opposite. This is exactly why you don't understand why organizations such as the ACLU do in order to protect equality and standards across the board.

No, you love to differentiate between people and situations and bend the rules when you feel the rules should be bent.

[Clandestino]

Actually, I didn't say I would or wouldn't support waivers in either situation. I was pointing out how you can't view things objectively.

You're a hypocrite. You sit back in one situation and admonish a girl who wants to override what the school wants to do, and in another situation do the exact opposite. This is exactly why you don't understand why organizations such as the ACLU do in order to protect equality and standards across the board.

No, you love to differentiate between people and situations and bend the rules when you feel the rules should be bent.

situations are totally different. she hadn't completed everything for her to graduate and she knew about it. she still did nothing even when the school told.

i know how you work nbadan...err...i mean manny

[MannyIsGod]

situations are totally different. she hadn't completed everything for her to graduate and she knew about it. she still did nothing even when the school told.

i know how you work nbadan...err...i mean manny
I don't know if you realize that everytime I post something negative about you it is confirmed in the very next post you make.

:lol

[Mr Dio]

Feel free to keep wasting time and energy on this non-issue.

Based on the mini-novel you've written I can see who has wasted the most time here.

[SPARKY]

I think he should be able to wear the uniform in lieu of a gown since the school is a public institution. I'd say the same if he was on his way to becoming a cop or a fireman. Those seem like sensible exceptions.

[mookie2001]

I don't know if you realize that everytime I post something negative about you it is confirmed in the very next post you make.

:lol



ROFL manny owns you again you clown

anyway
you cant start making a list of exceptions, its stupid, where does it stop, cops, ems, parking attendent, (now clandestino can say i compared a parking attendent to a marine). he can wear it underneath his gown just like some other chode can wear his ambercrombie shirt

[Mr Dio]

I think he should be able to wear the uniform in lieu of a gown since the school is a public institution. I'd say the same if he was on his way to becoming a cop or a fireman. Those seem like sensible exceptions

Sounds great, now we just need someone with common sense @ that school.

[JoeChalupa]

this guy is extremely proud to be a marine. his has a small request to wear his uniform. he is not looking looking for glory or recognition either.

did you actually serve or were you just a military brat? if you didn't serve than you have no idea of the proud feeling.

btw, wtg on writing your congressman.

A real Marine doesn't have to wear the Uniform to be proud.
Hell, I've been out of the Corps for 20 years and still damn proud I served and a lump in my throat every time I hear the National Anthem.

This young man has already proved he's worthy of the title of Marine and if there is one thing a Marine should respect is doing things by the book.

[mookie2001]

i get it
marines are so honorable that they are above recieving honor for something that they wanted to do so we'd see their honor. So that makes them even more honorable

[JoeChalupa]

i get it
marines are so honorable that they are above recieving honor for something that they wanted to do so we'd see their honor. So that makes them even more honorable

You got it.

"You don't need to wear a badge or uniform to have honor".

But I do admit I got a woody everytime I wore my dress blues!

[1369]

But I do admit I got a woody everytime I wore my dress blues!

:lol

And I'm sure the other guys in your platoon steered a wide course around you at the bar during the Ball.

[Mr Dio]

This young man has already proved he's worthy of the title of Marine and if there is one thing a Marine should respect is doing things by the book

That is why I said he should rip off the gown as soon as he gets that piece of paper.


But I do admit I got a woody everytime I wore my dress blues!

Exactly Joe!, & this guy is 18yo & earned those Dress Blues..Remember how you felt the 1st yr in the Corps w/your uniform on back home?

[blaze89]

Today it seems that everyone feels they deserve an exception to everything. It seems someone has a reason to be excempt (sp) from something.

People just ought to get over themselves from time to time.

[Clandestino]

friend of mine just told me that in his high school they told everyone, "any hand gesture above the waist will get you escorted out by security."

a guy who had been accepted in the usaf academy gave a salute when he got his diploma and security escorted him out! that is bullshit!

[FromWayDowntown]

I think he should be able to wear the uniform in lieu of a gown since the school is a public institution. I'd say the same if he was on his way to becoming a cop or a fireman. Those seem like sensible exceptions.

So, where do you draw the line? What about a kid who is on his way to becoming a district attorney (much like the cop or the fireman) and wants to address that publicly. A DA is a public servant in the same way as a cop or a fireman, so why can't that kid sport his professional choice?

And what about a kid who earns a scholarship to, say, play football at a prestigious institution. Much as one earns a marine uniform through hard work and dedication to a goal, earning that scholarship and the right to wear that uniform is an effort in hard work and dedication, too. Just as the Marine is proud of his accomplishment and his family wishes him to be noted for that accomplishment, doesn't the family of a prized football recruit have the same argument?

As others have offered before, and as the son of an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel, I have a great deal of respect for the effort our military men and women put forth and the sacrifices they make. But I'm also not sure why this is a "heartbreaking" story. There's no "heartbreak" in a kid being denied the chance to be different -- it might piss some people off and it might enrage others, but it's not heartbreaking even in the hyperbolic ways that words are used these days.

[SPARKY]

How about we make some sensible exceptions for those who put their lives at risk to defend this nation and maintain a decent society? The military, police, and fire department are all public institutions.

[SPARKY]

So, where do you draw the line? What about a kid who is on his way to becoming a district attorney (much like the cop or the fireman) and wants to address that publicly. A DA is a public servant in the same way as a cop or a fireman, so why can't that kid sport his professional choice?

That kid hasn't joined the DA's office yet.



And what about a kid who earns a scholarship to, say, play football at a prestigious institution. Much as one earns a marine uniform through hard work and dedication to a goal, earning that scholarship and the right to wear that uniform is an effort in hard work and dedication, too. Just as the Marine is proud of his accomplishment and his family wishes him to be noted for that accomplishment, doesn't the family of a prized football recruit have the same argument?

The football team doesn't defend this country nor protect and serve the public. Hell, some college football teams can't even defend their own end zone.



As others have offered before, and as the son of an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel, I have a great deal of respect for the effort our military men and women put forth and the sacrifices they make. But I'm also not sure why this is a "heartbreaking" story. There's no "heartbreak" in a kid being denied the chance to be different -- it might piss some people off and it might enrage others, but it's not heartbreaking even in the hyperbolic ways that words are used these days.

Not a heartbreaking story, but a revealing story about where this country is at today.

[FromWayDowntown]

How about we make some sensible exceptions for those who put their lives at risk to defend this nation and maintain a decent society? The military, police, and fire department are all public institutions.

How about we make a rule and stick by it without exceptions for anyone, since that is the fairest course of all.

And here's a novel compromise -- if it's all important that this kid be permitted to share his military accomplishments with the rest of his class, why not have the person who calls names mention that the kid has completed his basic training requirements in the same way that they announce that particular students have won scholarships. That way, the kid who has entered the military doesn't have to upstage his classmates by wearing something different, while still getting the accolades his accomplishment warrants.

Is there some reason that that wouldn't be enough?

[SPARKY]

The young man is a member of a military service and he's attending a formal event at a public institution. No compromise necessary.

[Spurminator]

More proof that the ACLU aren't the only ones who champion irrelevant causes.

[FromWayDowntown]

The young man is a member of a military service and he's attending a formal event at a public institution. No compromise necessary.

And the Marine Corps official position, as I understand it, is that he can permissibly wear a cap and gown over his uniform. If the Marine Corps are, in essence, telling this kid to just wear the stupid cap and gown, I don't really see what the argument is.

And I do think that the kid is worthy of having his accomplishment announced and shared with those in attendance. But that is conforming to the school's rule and the means by which other, laudable accomplishments are made public.

Again, I ask: why isn't that enough?

[SPARKY]

Why must the uniform be hidden? Why is it not an appropriate substitute for formal attire at this event? Are public servants not allowed to appear in formal attire on the grounds of a public institution if a school official so declares?

[FromWayDowntown]

Why must the uniform be hidden? Why is it not an appropriate substitute for formal attire at this event? Are public servants not allowed to appear in formal attire on the grounds of a public institution if a school official so declares?

It must be hidden, in this case, because the Marine Corps have said that a cap and gown are appropriately worn over the uniform where the school district compels that attire. The school district's dilemma here is that permitting this graduate to differ from the rest creates a problem with other graduates who've managed equally-laudable accomplishments, wanting to display those accomplishments in some formal fashion. If you make an exception for this kid, you're hard-pressed to deny exceptions for others. Further, if you make an exception here and you deny exceptions for others who believe their accomplishments equally worthy of public display, the school district will face forms of protest and civil disobedience from those who've been denied the opportunity to dress as they wish.

It's pretty simple: there's a rule and the school district wants the rule applied strictly. This is what I don't get -- even the Marine Corps has said the School's practice is permissible and has advised the kid to just wear the cap and gown. Where's the problem?

[SPARKY]

It must be hidden, in this case, because the Marine Corps have said that a cap and gown are appropriately worn over the uniform where the school district compels that attire. The school district's dilemma here is that permitting this graduate to differ from the rest creates a problem with other graduates who've managed equally-laudable accomplishments, wanting to display those accomplishments in some formal fashion. If you make an exception for this kid, you're hard-pressed to deny exceptions for others. Further, if you make an exception here and you deny exceptions for others who believe their accomplishments equally worthy of public display, the school district will face forms of protest and civil disobedience from those who've been denied the opportunity to dress as they wish.

What dilemma is there in a member of the United States military wearing a formal dress uniform on public grounds at a formal ceremony? Those other kids are not members of a public service.

Are we are to allow public school administrators to thumb their noses at other public institutions?




It's pretty simple: there's a rule and the school district wants the rule applied strictly. This is what I don't get -- even the Marine Corps has said the School's practice is permissible and has advised the kid to just wear the cap and gown. Where's the problem?

The problem lies in the assumption that even if the Corps did not have a different policy that the school official could choose not to respect the uniform.

[Clandestino]

It must be hidden, in this case, because the Marine Corps have said that a cap and gown are appropriately worn over the uniform where the school district compels that attire. The school district's dilemma here is that permitting this graduate to differ from the rest creates a problem with other graduates who've managed equally-laudable accomplishments, wanting to display those accomplishments in some formal fashion. If you make an exception for this kid, you're hard-pressed to deny exceptions for others. Further, if you make an exception here and you deny exceptions for others who believe their accomplishments equally worthy of public display, the school district will face forms of protest and civil disobedience from those who've been denied the opportunity to dress as they wish.

It's pretty simple: there's a rule and the school district wants the rule applied strictly. This is what I don't get -- even the Marine Corps has said the School's practice is permissible and has advised the kid to just wear the cap and gown. Where's the problem?

yeah, you'd have mookie's everywhere wanting to wear chicken suits!

[FromWayDowntown]

What dilemma is there in a member of the United States military wearing a formal dress uniform on public grounds at a formal ceremony? Those other kids are not members of a public service.

The dilemma is that this is not a military ceremony. It is a public school ceremony, where the school and not the military, sets the rules. As soon as the military takes over the administration of public schools, its dress requirements can supersede those imposed by the school. Until then, it's the school's forum and the school sets the rules.



Are we are to allow public school administrators to thumb their noses at other public institutions?

This isn't a school thumbing it's nose at anything -- nobody is stopping this young man from wearing his uniform. The school is just telling him that he must appear as all others do during the graduation ceremony, which, again, is governed by school and not military rules. He can wear his uniform to the ceremony; he just has to wear a gown over it.



The problem lies in the assumption that even if the Corps did not have a different policy that the school official could choose not to respect the uniform.

Why is it a disrespect to the uniform to require a young man to play by the same rules that apply to all other graduates in his class? Even the Marine Corps agrees that it's not a disrespect to the uniform, otherwise, I'd think the Corps would have strenuously argued that this young man should be permitted to eschew the cap and gown. It did not.

[SPARKY]

The dilemma is that this is not a military ceremony. It is a public school ceremony, where the school and not the military, sets the rules. As soon as the military takes over the administration of public schools, its dress requirements can supersede those imposed by the school. Until then, it's the school's forum and the school sets the rules.


It is a formal ceremony at a public institution. Since when is a formal uniform of the United States military unacceptable in a formal setting on public property?




This isn't a school thumbing it's nose at anything -- nobody is stopping this young man from wearing his uniform. The school is just telling him that he must appear as all others do during the graduation ceremony, which, again, is governed by school and not military rules. He can wear his uniform to the ceremony; he just has to wear a gown over it.


Why is the uniform not acceptable in place of the dress gown? This is not a standard business suit or a tshirt, shorts, and sandals.




Why is it a disrespect to the uniform to require a young man to play by the same rules that apply to all other graduates in his class? Even the Marine Corps agrees that it's not a disrespect to the uniform, otherwise, I'd think the Corps would have strenuously argued that this young man should be permitted to eschew the cap and gown. It did not.

The young man is a member of a public service entrusted with defending this nation. I'd think that the formal dress of that institution would be an acceptable replacement for the formal dress of this public ceremony.

If we want school administrators to thumb their noses at other public institutions where is that line drawn?

[ChumpDumper]

It's not disrespect.

It's not nose-thumbing.

Get over that.

It's a rule -- a rule they have every right to make and enforce. Go pass a law if you're panties are that bunched.

[SPARKY]

It's a disrespectful rule. Why are your panties in such a bunch? Oh wait, it's ChumpHumper. Nevermind...

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Note to the Marine graduate:

Put your dress on like the rest of us, and be the bigger man!!!

[MannyIsGod]

appropriate headgear for this thread:

http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Dwarf/Gimli/Helmet/Gim_Helmet_sj.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

It's your opinion that it's disrespectful because your panties are bunched over it. You admitted it was the school officials discretion, so no other argument matters.

[SPARKY]

Nope. Didn't.

[Bandit2981]

are the people who are arguing against the principals decision the same ones who were siding with the employer who fired people if they were smokers, even outside of work? rules are rules. :angel

[SPARKY]

Nope.

[ChumpDumper]

Are public servants not allowed to appear in formal attire on the grounds of a public institution if a school official so declares?I assumed that was rhetoical. If you really didn't know, the answer in this case is yes -- under the gown for the length of one ceremony anyway. Exceptions have been made elsewhere, but not here. So what? Write your congressman if you are so bothered. Chances are you won't.

[SPARKY]

It was also the discretion of school administrators to keep "coloreds" out I guess that would be fine in your book as well.

[Spurminator]

Did you guys hear about the comatose man who wants to wear the Ten Commandments on his gown at graduation with his gay life partner?

[SPARKY]

Did you guys hear about the comatose man who wants to wear the Ten Commandments on his gown at graduation with his gay life partner?

Touche.

[ChumpDumper]

It was also the discretion of school administrators to keep "coloreds" out I guess that would be fine in your book as well.Stupid analogy. They made a law about that. They can do the same here. Paste the email to your Congressman here.

[MannyIsGod]

Did you guys hear about the comatose man who wants to wear the Ten Commandments on his gown at graduation with his gay life partner?
:lol

[SPARKY]

Stupid analogy. They made a law about that. They can do the same here. Paste the email to your Congressman here.


Actually the analogy is appropo. Seems like some uniformed members of the federal government had to show up on....a local public school's grounds.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually the analogy is appropo.Nope.
Seems like some uniformed members of the federal government had to show up on....a local public school's grounds.After the law was passed and court cases decided. Get to it.

[SPARKY]

Actually it is.

No need for the law to be passed. You should consider removing the cactus from your vagina.

[PakiDan]

situations are totally different. she hadn't completed everything for her to graduate and she knew about it. she still did nothing even when the school told.

i know how you work nbadan...err...i mean manny

where you referring to Pakidan? I'm flattered.

[Clandestino]

where you referring to Pakidan? I'm flattered.

no, nbadan... he posts in political forum..

[ChumpDumper]

No need for the law to be passed.If you want to force it to happen, yes. Otherwise, it's up to the individual school boards.

And fuck yourself.

[SPARKY]

Ah yes, those who serve, protect, and defend this country shouldn't be respected unless we really, really have to do so.

Go fuck yourself already you lonely miserable bitch.

[ChumpDumper]

Making them wear gowns over their uniforms for an hour is not disrespect.

And yes, you have to tell them if you want to force it to be that way for everyone. That's how laws work.

How's that letter coming along?

[exstatic]

the aclu only protects rapists, pedophiles like nambla members, and the like.

So, which one is Rush? :fro