Raising the bar thread: Better career, Steve Nash or Dirk Nowitzki?

[midnightpulp]

Two very impressive, somewhat underrated, players, who are unfairly labeled as chokers because they failed to capture a championship. If Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Garnett are the top 4 players of their respective era (I consider Lebron and Wade part of the next era, the post Shaq/Kobe/Duncan era, if you will), which one of these players takes the 5th spot?

Nash is a two-time NBA MVP with 7 all-star game appearances and has placed on the all-NBA team 7 times. In addition, he's led the league in assists 4 times and ranks 8th all time in that category.

His regular season career averages in the major stat categories are: 16.8ppg, 9.5apg, 3.4rpg, and 49% FG.

Unlike many superstars, his averages remain consistent into the post-season, posting marks of: 17.3ppg, 8.9apg, 3.5rpg, 47% FG. He couldn't reach the Finals, but he's reached the Western Conference Finals 5 times in his career.

It's logical to believe that if Nash had a bigman with a strong post game and a larger front line that could better control the boards, one of those Conference Finals trips would have resulted in championship.

He often gets knocked for his defense, but Point Guards aren't usually relied upon to be lock down defenders, anyway. Still, he's sub-par in this area, and it's something to consider. Some will be inclined to say that his inability to win a championship will be the greatest blow against him as an all-time great, but I'm a firm believer in the idea that rings are team accomplishments and it's disingenuous to resort to the "ring argument" when comparing two players. They should be compared on what they achieved individually rather than as part of a team.

On to Dirk.

His career parallels Nash's in many ways. Not only did they play together, but they're both maligned for not being able to seal the deal in June, as well as their inability to play high-level defense.

Dirk's career averages are: 22.9ppg, 8.5rpg, 2.7apg, 47%FG.
Impressively, he raises his numbers in points and rebounds in the post-season, and raises them by a good margin, while staying consistent in assists and field goal percentage. 25.6ppg, 10.9rpg, 2.6apg, 46%FG.

He's an MVP award winner, a 9 time all-star, and has made 9 all-NBA teams.

Just like Nash, he's criticized for not winning a championship, even more so, because of the debacle against Miami (which he shouldn't be blamed for), and the upset at the hands of Golden State (which he deserves a good amount of the blame for). But when you examine Dirk's post-season career, taking a close look at the games, he's really only had one terrible post-season performance, against Golden State. All other times, his team was clearly over matched, or as in the case against Miami, his supporting cast failed, namely Josh Howard, who was the Maverick's second leading scorer.

Dirk's career has been criminally reduced to two playoff series.

That considered, who do you choose?

[Giuseppe]

It's a push:::they're both losers---in a winner's circle.

It happens that way sometimes.

[AussieFanKurt]

Hard to compare players who play at different positions. I personally like Nash better and think he's done better although never making the finals. Dirk has been excellent nevertheless

[Jose Canseco]

Generally appropriately evaluated and ranked as players. They'll both go down as MVP players who weren't able to lead teams to championship but who were really good. Neither among the very best of HOF players the league has seen, but still really, really good players. They both should be below the likes of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, and Patrick Ewing among great players who didn't win championships.

I'd say Dirk has had the better career and has pretty much been the better player throughout their two respective careers. I think Nash's greatness was largely due to Phoenix' offensive system. Still a great player, but I think overblown because he really fit the open style of putting up big offensive numbers and was never really required to play defense. Coincidentally, after Nash left Dallas, the Mavs actually got better the next couple seasons, obviously culminating in the 2006 NBA Finals appearance. Taking away a great player from a team shouldn't make a team better.

Dirk is and was the better player and with the better career. Nash is great too and it's not his fault that he found a perfect system to play in. But I'd take Dirk over Nash 10 times out of 10 times.

As a side, the two of them played together in their prime for about 4-5 seasons or so (I think) but only got to the WCF once. Having two all-time greats (MVP winners) plus another all star caliber player (Finley) all in their prime and not even making the NBA Finals once is disappointing when you consider both Nowitzki and Nash are supposed to be so great.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Two very impressive, somewhat underrated, players, who are unfairly labeled as chokers because they failed to capture a championship. If Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Garnett are the top 4 players of their respective era (I consider Lebron and Wade part of the next era, the post Shaq/Kobe/Duncan era, if you will), which one of these players takes the 5th spot?

Nash is a two-time NBA MVP with 7 all-star game appearances and has placed on the all-NBA team 7 times. In addition, he's led the league in assists 4 times and ranks 8th all time in that category.

His regular season career averages in the major stat categories are: 16.8ppg, 9.5apg, 3.4rpg, and 49% FG.

Unlike many superstars, his averages remain consistent into the post-season, posting marks of: 17.3ppg, 8.9apg, 3.5rpg, 47% FG. He couldn't reach the Finals, but he's reached the Western Conference Finals 5 times in his career.

It's logical to believe that if Nash had a bigman with a strong post game and a larger front line that could better control the boards, one of those Conference Finals trips would have resulted in championship.

He often gets knocked for his defense, but Point Guards aren't usually relied upon to be lock down defenders, anyway. Still, he's sub-par in this area, and it's something to consider. Some will be inclined to say that his inability to win a championship will be the greatest blow against him as an all-time great, but I'm a firm believer in the idea that rings are team accomplishments and it's disingenuous to resort to the "ring argument" when comparing two players. They should be compared on what they achieved individually rather than as part of a team.

On to Dirk.

His career parallels Nash's in many ways. Not only did they play together, but they're both maligned for not being able to seal the deal in June, as well as their inability to play high-level defense.

Dirk's career averages are: 22.9ppg, 8.5rpg, 2.7apg, 47%FG.
Impressively, he raises his numbers in points and rebounds in the post-season, and raises them by a good margin, while staying consistent in assists and field goal percentage. 25.6ppg, 10.9rpg, 2.6apg, 46%FG.

He's an MVP award winner, a 9 time all-star, and has made 9 all-NBA teams.

Just like Nash, he's criticized for not winning a championship, even more so, because of the debacle against Miami (which he shouldn't be blamed for), and the upset at the hands of Golden State (which he deserves a good amount of the blame for). But when you examine Dirk's post-season career, taking a close look at the games, he's really only had one terrible post-season performance, against Golden State. All other times, his team was clearly over matched, or as in the case against Miami, his supporting cast failed, namely Josh Howard, who was the Maverick's second leading scorer.

Dirk's career has been criminally reduced to two playoff series.

That considered, who do you choose?

Like Aussie said it's hard to compare players from different positions, but it's an interesting debate nevertheless. You made solid points for both, but if I had to choose I'd go with Dirk. I'm not taking anything away from Nash, but since their so similar in accomplishment I base my choice on "current potential to win it all." The Mavericks are in a much better situation to vie for a ring now that Amare bolted to NYK. Nash is still a stud though...he and D'Antoni transformed the NBA back in 2004-05--and though ultimately unsuccessful--they created a very exciting brand of basketball. I agree that they both are unfairly labeled as chokers (especially Dirk, since he's had great #'s even in playoff defeat). The only time you can legitimately say they choked was in Game 3 of the 2006 NBA Finals. You can't blame the refs for blowing a 13-point 4th quarter lead w/ 5 minutes left. However, Game 5 was an officiating atrocity (much like Game 6 of the 2002 WCF and Game 3 of the 2007 WCSF). In 2007 they would have beaten 28 of 29 teams in the first round. Unfortunately for them they drew the Warriors who were 3-0 against Dallas (they accounted for 1/5 of Dallas' losses that season:wow).

[y2kbug]

I give Nash the edge, he's tougher, smarter and makes his team much better. Dirk is really good, but if it wasn't him scoring, it'd be someone else. Also, if he played more like a big man, he might be more favorable.

[Muser]

Dirk

[BRHornet45]

Nash by far ... its not even close.

[Killakobe81]

Generally appropriately evaluated and ranked as players. They'll both go down as MVP players who weren't able to lead teams to championship but who were really good. Neither among the very best of HOF players the league has seen, but still really, really good players. They both should be below the likes of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, and Patrick Ewing among great players who didn't win championships.

I'd say Dirk has had the better career and has pretty much been the better player throughout their two respective careers. I think Nash's greatness was largely due to Phoenix' offensive system. Still a great player, but I think overblown because he really fit the open style of putting up big offensive numbers and was never really required to play defense. Coincidentally, after Nash left Dallas, the Mavs actually got better the next couple seasons, obviously culminating in the 2006 NBA Finals appearance. Taking away a great player from a team shouldn't make a team better.

Dirk is and was the better player and with the better career. Nash is great too and it's not his fault that he found a perfect system to play in. But I'd take Dirk over Nash 10 times out of 10 times.

As a side, the two of them played together in their prime for about 4-5 seasons or so (I think) but only got to the WCF once. Having two all-time greats (MVP winners) plus another all star caliber player (Finley) all in their prime and not even making the NBA Finals once is disappointing when you consider both Nowitzki and Nash are supposed to be so great.

agree with most of the above ...it has to be Dirk. Maybe not 10 out of 10 but I would say at least 7 out of 10. Dirk has had the better career. He has been to the Finals, has had more "elite level" seasons ...has put up great playoff numbers ... except the two crushing defeats that haunt his career. Plus, Dirk at least has beat a cahmpionship caliber spur team, which Nash could never lead his team to do, even when favored. Nash's greatest playoff moments came at the expense of Kobe and his undermanned squad. Nash has two at least somewhat suspect MVP's ...that is why he is in this conversation. don't get me wrong Nash is a great player and last year's WCF run was impressive. Also, Nash though talented, really didnt blossom until D'antonoi's system. Dirk has excelled every year since his rookie one and will probably go down as the greatest foreign player of his era ...which includes Nash.

[picc84]

Nash and it ain't even close.

[panic giraffe]

nash. he can carry his team farther as the only go-to guy. dirk needs a kid or a nash to be better. a player like nash can make scrubs better. a player like dirk can score and play a softer version of his position.

[Jose Canseco]

nash. he can carry his team farther as the only go-to guy. dirk needs a kid or a nash to be better. a player like nash can make scrubs better. a player like dirk can score and play a softer version of his position.

Is that why Dirk led the Mavs all the way to the NBA Finals in 2006 without a Kidd or a Nash?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

nash. he can carry his team farther as the only go-to guy. dirk needs a kid or a nash to be better.
What? Dirk carried his team to the finals as the only all star level player on his team (without either Kidd or Nash). Nash has never been to the finals. It's nothing against Nash since an elite 7 footer (even one who plays like Dirk) will almost always be able to carry a team further than an elite point guard who's barely 6 feet tall is able to, but that comment made no sense.

EDIT: that nigga Jose took the words outa my mouf

[Jt.ONE]

dirk and its not even close

[Ghazi]

Dirk should've won an NBA Championship with Jason fucking Terry as his sidekick.

Nash is great though, and probably should've rang w/ Dirk in '03 if not for Kerr bullshit shots and Dirk's injury.

I lean toward Dirk.

[Ghazi]

This thread warrants this

NWyetpWh-yc

[Ghazi]

...great fucking MVP mix :cry

[dirk4mvp]

dirk needs a kid or a nash to be better.

:lmao :lmao :rollin :lmao :rollin

are you fuckin retarded?

who was making him better the year he won mvp?


oh god your comment reeks of stupidity. I hope you and your family die in a fire.

[BadOdor]

:lmao :lmao :rollin :lmao :rollin

are you fuckin retarded?

who was making him better the year he won mvp?


oh god your comment reeks of stupidity. I hope you and your family die in a fire.

I think we found what makes dirk4vmp's ass bleed.

lol dirk.

[MavDynasty]

:lmao :lmao :rollin :lmao :rollin

are you fuckin retarded?

who was making him better the year he won mvp?


oh god your comment reeks of stupidity. I hope you and your family die in a fire.

:cry great fuckin regular season warrior :cry

:cry too fucking bad he lost against the warriors :rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lol:lol:lol:rollin:rollin:rollin:r ollin:lmao:lmao:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

I would go with Nowitzki without thinking too much about it..he has been better for longer than Nash, he was a star for a few seasons prior to Nash's breakout, and he's been better by a decent margin for the last 2 years or so as well..

They are both underrated from a historical standpoint though..

[Darrin]

I think Nash is the better player, I'm not sure he's had a better career. I don't like the Dirk since he was put into AJ's offense--he hasn't been the best offensive player in the league since then.

[baseline bum]

I gotta go with Dirk, simply because Nash might be the worst defender I have ever seen.

[Venti Quattro]

Dirk. His defense and rebounding are underrated imo and Nash's defense is something you just can't fix

[LkrFan]

Nash and it ain't even close.
QFT.

Nash FTW. Screw _irk. Anybody 7 foot and doesn't have a post game sucks ass in my book. That loser even got Avery Johnson fired because he refuse to get down and dirty on the low block. Cuban definitely let the wrong Maverick go. Nash is shithead, but I'll take him over _irk 24/7/365.

[dirk4mvp]

I think we found what makes dirk4vmp's ass bleed.

lol dirk.
neat point.

[DAF86]

I think we found what makes dirk4vmp's ass bleed.

lol dirk.

You realize that just now? Dirk and Manning are his boiling points.

[dude1394]

This thread warrants this



An awesome vid. Thank you. Funny during the dunk contest, stoudamire thought it was about him. :)

I think dirk is a more transcendent player, but little stevie nash is an absolute stud-savant.

There is no one that makes me more nervous with the ball in his hands and the time winding down than little stevie, no one.

Cubes has done a mea culpa, but I also think that nellie had to go (both as a talent evaluator -- I'm pretty sure he's the guy who told cubes that steve had a price tag that cubes shouldn't go over -- and as a coach.

Dirk wouldn't have done the things he did after nashie left without nellie leaving. Then again without Nellie dirk may have never became what he is either. Funny thing about life, you never know how it's going to turn out.

[dickface]

XuCuohleiV0

[dirk4mvp]

You realize that just now? Dirk and Manning are his boiling points.

tbh, I actually get to watch my favorite players play, unlike you rooting your balls off for Vick and Young, 2 guys who you've never seen play a game.

crofl argentina

[Giuseppe]

Those damn Viets & Argents!

[dirk4mvp]

let us proceed...

[diego]

IMO dirk's had the better career, by two hairs, but I agree with whoever said that nash is the better player. a dominant PG, no matter how bad his D, is more valuable to me than a 7ft SG, no matter how sweet his shot.

[Muser]

People say 7 foot SG like it's a bad thing?

[badfish22]

lol at a "raising the bar" thread being another _________ or ________? thread.

[picc84]

People say 7 foot SG like it's a bad thing?

One of the worst, Muse.

[Poirot]

People say 7 foot SG like it's a bad thing?

Simply put, it doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table. You wipe out post-play and offensive rebounding, and merely duplicate what smaller more natural shooting guards do. Completely redundant.

Dirk is a tremendous talent and a scorer, and that's what makes him special. A seven foot shooter in the league is unique, but not special. Case in point, Andrea Bargnani.

[dirk4mvp]

For a guy who doesn't bring a lot to the table, he sure did a lot more team wise with less help than Nash did with more.

[dirk4mvp]

Simply put, it doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table. You wipe out post-play and offensive rebounding, and merely duplicate what smaller more natural shooting guards do. Completely redundant.

Dirk is a tremendous talent and a scorer, and that's what makes him special. A seven foot shooter in the league is unique, but not special. Case in point, Andrea Bargnani.

Andrea Bargnani = Dirk Nowitzki

thanks.

[DAF86]

tbh, I actually get to watch my favorite players play, unlike you rooting your balls off for Vick and Young, 2 guys who you've never seen play a game.

crofl argentina

I see them play, but 99% of the time on a crappy internet feed. That's beign a good fan, tbh/imho.

[dirk4mvp]

:cry I was finally gonna see Young on tv then they showed baseball :cry

[IronMexican]

nash. he can carry his team farther as the only go-to guy. dirk needs a kid or a nash to be better. a player like nash can make scrubs better. a player like dirk can score and play a softer version of his position.

This just might be the worst post I've ever read, excluding lefty liners.

[dirk4mvp]

IM, with the goods, per the when he's not talking about indie bands.

BadOdor can now send his female family members to my home to give me a shaft bath.

[21_Blessings]

Both overrated. Both play no D. Both won an undeserved MVP. Both losers.

Dirk choked a bit more, though.

[Giuseppe]

^That's it, and that's all.

[dirk4mvp]

nuh, uh.

you forgot about the part where katie girl's snatch smells like old tuna.

[Giuseppe]

Aren't ya gonna beg me to IM with ya anymore?

tee, hee.

[dirk4mvp]

not sure if i've ever seriously asked your disturbed ass to chat with us.

let us proceed...

[Giuseppe]

No, you didn't ask, you begged. And I led ya around by the short hairs for months till I wore ya down to a nub and you vamoosed.

lmvictoriousao!

[dirk4mvp]

the poisons and gasses that you hurt those poor innocent people with has effected your brain and thought process.


lmemulatedao!

[Giuseppe]

The Viets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Both overrated. Both play no D. Both won an undeserved MVP. Both losers.

Dirk choked a bit more, though.

Get back to sucking Rons dick faggot, and dont come up for air till ur done

[DeadlyDynasty]

agent orange ftw

[IronMexican]

agent orange ftw

That was definitely one of lefty's worst.

[duhoh]

well nash made barbosa, diaw, marion, tim thomas, and some others into fricken all-star status (or near it). that counts for something.

[dirk4mvp]

lol Nash making Marion an all star caliber player

[BadOdor]

IM, with the goods, per the when he's not talking about indie bands.

BadOdor can now send his female family members to my home to give me a shaft bath.

Tbh members of the Asian race such as yourself are only allowed to refer to it as "my penis" or "my peepee". Calling it a shaft evokes an image of a respectable size, which you koreans obviously lack.


crofl dirk<nash.

[dirk4mvp]

Tbh members of the asisn race such as yourself are only allowed to refer to it as "my penis" or "my peepee". Calling it shaft evokes an image of a respectable size, which you koreans obviously lack.


crofl dirk<nash.

lol me being a member of the pickle breath clan

[diego]

lets not act like dirk has had substantially more team success than nash. he got to the finals once, the rest is pretty much even.

dirk's primary strength, shooting, is an area where nash is no slouch at.

while dirk is a great rebounder for a SG, he's mediocre for a PF. meanwhile, nash is a really great assist man, no matter what position.

people knock nash's D, but when has he played with a good defensive big? meanwhile, dirk has played several seasons with "garbage men" at the 5 to hide his lack of strength/bulk. some posters are saying nash's success is due to the system and that dirk's finals appearance makes him better, but maybe nash's lack of a finals appearance is because the suns system lacked defense? maybe dirk's finals appearance is because AJ's system put dirk in a defensive minded system where he could hide dirk's defensive shortcomings?

bottom line, I value dirk taking his team to the final (even though i think they were extremely lucky to get past SA) over nash's two MVP's, so i think he had the better career. but I think nash is the better player, because he plays his position better than dirk plays his.

[Giuseppe]

Nash quit.

Dirk hasn't.

[Phillip]

Dirk is a tremendous talent and a scorer, and that's what makes him special. A seven foot shooter in the league is unique, but not special. Case in point, Andrea Bargnani.

Then obviously Dirk is much more than just a "seven foot shooter" because he's considerably better than Bargnani. And Bargnani is no slouch himself, he's developed into a pretty solid player.

[Phillip]

Nash quit.

When has he quit? Nash is a fucking warrior.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When has he quit?
The 2009 season.

That's one reason why I say Dirk >>> Nash, the low point of Nash's career is 100x worse than the low point of Dirk's career. Dirk never quit 20 games into a season because he wasn't having enough fun, got his coach fired, tanked his team into the lottery, then demanded a raise afterwards.

[Giuseppe]

When has he quit? Nash is a fucking warrior.

See the asshole above.

[monosylab1k]

See the asshole above.

crucify em, cubby. send that chuckbox no-show to the tree of woe!

[Giuseppe]

Mono, gettin' his O & Forever on.

[Phillip]

The 2009 season.

That's one reason why I say Dirk >>> Nash, the low point of Nash's career is 100x worse than the low point of Dirk's career. Dirk never quit 20 games into a season because he wasn't having enough fun, got his coach fired, tanked his team into the lottery, then demanded a raise afterwards.

seems like nitpicking tbh, but ill take your word for it

[Roddy Beaubois]

Nash quit.

Dirk hasn't.

But he did provide The Skunker

[Phillip]

cubby, gettin his suckage of cock on

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

seems like nitpicking tbh, but ill take your word for it
Not nitpicking at all. Regardless of the rest of his career, Kobe's stunt in 2006 will always be a stain on his resume, same goes for Nash in 2009.

[Giuseppe]

^Yet another member of The O & Forever Crew.

[Jose Canseco]

lets not act like dirk has had substantially more team success than nash. he got to the finals once, the rest is pretty much even.

dirk's primary strength, shooting, is an area where nash is no slouch at.

while dirk is a great rebounder for a SG, he's mediocre for a PF. meanwhile, nash is a really great assist man, no matter what position.

people knock nash's D, but when has he played with a good defensive big? meanwhile, dirk has played several seasons with "garbage men" at the 5 to hide his lack of strength/bulk. some posters are saying nash's success is due to the system and that dirk's finals appearance makes him better, but maybe nash's lack of a finals appearance is because the suns system lacked defense? maybe dirk's finals appearance is because AJ's system put dirk in a defensive minded system where he could hide dirk's defensive shortcomings?

bottom line, I value dirk taking his team to the final (even though i think they were extremely lucky to get past SA) over nash's two MVP's, so i think he had the better career. but I think nash is the better player, because he plays his position better than dirk plays his.

"Substantially" more success? Maybe not. But still more. When you compare players, you find those differences, whether it's by a large margin or a very small one. Dirk and Nash are comparable players. The one Finals appearance Dirk has is a distinction that does separate him. And it's extremely important to point out that on that 2005-06 Mavs team, the next best players were Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Not bad role players, but certainly not star players or legitimate (perennial) all star caliber players. That's a big reason why Dirk gets a lot of credit for taking the Mavs that far.

Nash had better all around talent on those Suns teams that fit the Suns system. Dirk had smokey and turtlehead. And while their defense held them back, the Suns were held back just as much by the fact that getting deeper into the playoffs they weren't able to force their style of play on better defensive teams. It wasn't just a fault of their lack of defense. They couldn't get into an offensive pace for 110-115 points every game and win. That's as much a blame on their ability to force their offensive style. And that also goes to Nash's abilities on offense and his ability to command the offense and style of offense against better defenses in the playoffs.

Dirk is actually a solid rebounder for a PF. He's not an elite rebounder like Duncan or Garnett. But, especially as a defensive rebounder, it's a flat out lie to say he's mediocre. He doesn't get as many offensive rebounds as many PFs because he does play out on the perimeter on offense. But check his defensive rebounding stats, and you'll see there's no way he should be considered a "mediocre" rebounder. Career-wise, he's a better defensive rebounder than guys like Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh and in the same neighborhood as Carlos Boozer. It's the fact that he plays out on the perimeter on offense that his overall rebounding isn't much better. But to say he's a mediocre rebounder sounds silly to me.

[Phillip]

Dirk is actually a solid rebounder for a PF. He's not an elite rebounder like Duncan or Garnett. But, especially as a defensive rebounder, it's a flat out lie to say he's mediocre. He doesn't get as many offensive rebounds as many PFs because he does play out on the perimeter on offense. But check his defensive rebounding stats, and you'll see there's no way he should be considered a "mediocre" rebounder. Career-wise, he's a better defensive rebounder than guys like Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh and in the same neighborhood as Carlos Boozer. It's the fact that he plays out on the perimeter on offense that his overall rebounding isn't much better. But to say he's a mediocre rebounder sounds silly to me.

Correct.

Dirk has always been a superb defensive rebounder, often near the top of the league at defensive rebound rate. If you watch him, his timing is what makes him so effective, even though hes not as athletic as others. He times his jump very well and gets good position. Seen him snag defensive boards away from guys like Garnett and Howard quite a few times because his timing and positioning is so good. He doesn't get a lot of offensive rebounds because as you said, he often is out on the perimeter, but is very capable of going inside and snagging offensive boards as well, and tends to do that much more when the playoffs roll around. He always averages around 11-12 RPG come playoff time.

Perhaps the only PF that really sticks out as being superior to Dirk in his rebounding fundamentals is Tim Duncan. Maybe Garnett as well.

[BUMP]

"Substantially" more success? Maybe not. But still more. When you compare players, you find those differences, whether it's by a large margin or a very small one. Dirk and Nash are comparable players. The one Finals appearance Dirk has is a distinction that does separate him. And it's extremely important to point out that on that 2005-06 Mavs team, the next best players were Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Not bad role players, but certainly not star players or legitimate (perennial) all star caliber players. That's a big reason why Dirk gets a lot of credit for taking the Mavs that far.

Nash had better all around talent on those Suns teams that fit the Suns system. Dirk had smokey and turtlehead. And while their defense held them back, the Suns were held back just as much by the fact that getting deeper into the playoffs they weren't able to force their style of play on better defensive teams. It wasn't just a fault of their lack of defense. They couldn't get into an offensive pace for 110-115 points every game and win. That's as much a blame on their ability to force their offensive style. And that also goes to Nash's abilities on offense and his ability to command the offense and style of offense against better defenses in the playoffs.

Dirk is actually a solid rebounder for a PF. He's not an elite rebounder like Duncan or Garnett. But, especially as a defensive rebounder, it's a flat out lie to say he's mediocre. He doesn't get as many offensive rebounds as many PFs because he does play out on the perimeter on offense. But check his defensive rebounding stats, and you'll see there's no way he should be considered a "mediocre" rebounder. Career-wise, he's a better defensive rebounder than guys like Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh and in the same neighborhood as Carlos Boozer. It's the fact that he plays out on the perimeter on offense that his overall rebounding isn't much better. But to say he's a mediocre rebounder sounds silly to me.

Your finest hour, Jammy

[dirk4mvp]

(even though i think they were extremely lucky to get past SA)

1OmE3B-s8ow

Dirk & Co. left ya hangin', wonderin' where they went::::::::Cully left DOK hangin', wonderin where he went.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

lol, Dallas took the ball to the hole more in that video than they did all of last season.

[monosylab1k]

watching that video is great partly because I forgot that Jerry Stackhouse could actually make those pull up jumpers back then.

[Poirot]

For a guy who doesn't bring a lot to the table, he sure did a lot more team wise with less help than Nash did with more.

Read my post again before you spew garbage. Thanks.

[diego]

"Substantially" more success? Maybe not. But still more. When you compare players, you find those differences, whether it's by a large margin or a very small one. Dirk and Nash are comparable players. The one Finals appearance Dirk has is a distinction that does separate him. And it's extremely important to point out that on that 2005-06 Mavs team, the next best players were Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Not bad role players, but certainly not star players or legitimate (perennial) all star caliber players. That's a big reason why Dirk gets a lot of credit for taking the Mavs that far.

Yeah, thats why i agreed in my post that dirk taking his team to the finals is worth more to me than nash's extra MVP trophy. However, its a little misleading to say that howard and terry were his next best players, because they both suck now. for those playoffs, terry averaged just under 19pts, 3 rebounds and 4 assists, howard had 16.7pts, 7.4 reb and shot 37% from 3. Yeah, they're not perennial all stars or star players, but they played at a high level that year.
Do you think that, if both teams had switched terry+howard/marion+diaw for the 06 playoffs, that means the mavs win the ship and the suns dont make the WCF? I dont think so (well, maybe the suns dont make the WCF, seeing as Diaw was their primary big man those PO :lol )


Nash had better all around talent on those Suns teams that fit the Suns system. Dirk had smokey and turtlehead. And while their defense held them back, the Suns were held back just as much by the fact that getting deeper into the playoffs they weren't able to force their style of play on better defensive teams. It wasn't just a fault of their lack of defense. They couldn't get into an offensive pace for 110-115 points every game and win. That's as much a blame on their ability to force their offensive style. And that also goes to Nash's abilities on offense and his ability to command the offense and style of offense against better defenses in the playoffs.

did nash have more talent on his team than dirk last year? IMO barely, definitely better coaching, yet mavs lost to the spurs and the suns destroyed them. Also, in 05 and 07 at least, the suns problem wasnt their pace- IIRC, they were able to score 100+ on the spurs regularly, their problem was that the spurs beat them at their own game. sure, come the 4th Q the spurs would force a slower half court game but its not like nash was easily neutered just by running back on D. bruce bowen deserves a lot of credit for doing a great job on him.

I think it was 05 that the suns had MVP, COY, 3 all stars, 6th man, just about every award, and the spurs beat them... I made fun of plenty of suns fans about that. But those are just awards, titles, and dont really matter much once the game starts. the same thing with "perennial all stars". Is Tmac still in the "perennial all star" category? what about say, chris kaman, is he 5x worse than Amare (by all star selections)? In 07, how many all star/mvp/all nba players did GSW have?


Dirk is actually a solid rebounder for a PF. He's not an elite rebounder like Duncan or Garnett. But, especially as a defensive rebounder, it's a flat out lie to say he's mediocre. He doesn't get as many offensive rebounds as many PFs because he does play out on the perimeter on offense. But check his defensive rebounding stats, and you'll see there's no way he should be considered a "mediocre" rebounder. Career-wise, he's a better defensive rebounder than guys like Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh and in the same neighborhood as Carlos Boozer. It's the fact that he plays out on the perimeter on offense that his overall rebounding isn't much better. But to say he's a mediocre rebounder sounds silly to me.

excuse me, i misworded myself. My point was, that Nash is consistently elite (top 3) in assists, and that dirk cant say the same for his rebounding. Nash is currently 8th all time in assists. dirk is 62nd all time in rebounding.

obviously, dirk has better scoring numbers and is 27th all time in points. but I dont put all that much stock into them because he is basically a shooter (whereas nash is a setup guy), and % wise, nash is actually the better shooter.

again, to sum up, i think dirk's had the better career, but that nash is to me the better player because he can set guys up extremely well, and score pretty well, while dirk can score very well and rebound pretty well. its easier IMO to build around a good setup PG with a good shot, than it is to build around a jumpshooting PF who barely makes an impact inside (with defensive boards).

also, the same way you can argue that nash didnt make an impact till he went went to phoenix/ d'antoni, you can also argue that the phoenix org. has committed many mistakes, many of them from being cheap, while dirk's had mark cuban's big wallet build several teams around him.

[Killakobe81]

I would go with Nowitzki without thinking too much about it..he has been better for longer than Nash, he was a star for a few seasons prior to Nash's breakout, and he's been better by a decent margin for the last 2 years or so as well..

They are both underrated from a historical standpoint though..

Nice pic of Brother Muzone ...you just picked up a couple of cool points in my book Harlem, too bad you will probably lose them with some kind of Kobe bashin' Lebron love-fest elsewhere in this forum. But the wire is the best show in the history of telivison and it's not even close. A more difficult question than Nash vs. dirk is which is the est season of the "The wire"
It has to be 1, 3 or 4 tough call ...but i say 3 because of Muzone and Omar teaming up.

[Greg Oden]

Read my post again before you spew garbage. Thanks.

dirk4mvp read it again. It was as retarded the second time as it was the first. You're welcome.

[Poirot]

Then obviously Dirk is much more than just a "seven foot shooter" because he's considerably better than Bargnani. And Bargnani is no slouch himself, he's developed into a pretty solid player.

You just reiterated my point. Dirk is more than just a 7 foot shooter. Same can't be said about Bargnani, who can't rebound, defend, or elevate his team.

Dirk4MVP and this idiot poster above me thinks I'm disparaging Dirk, when I'm doing just the opposite. Sigh. Let me explain.



For a guy who doesn't bring a lot to the table, he sure did a lot more team wise with less help than Nash did with more.


Nowhere in my point did I say DIRK didn't bring a lot to the table. What I said was that just being a seven foot player who can shoot doesn't necessarily make you a special player. I explicity pointed out that Dirk IS a special talent, and that he IS more than just a run-of-the-mill seven footer who can shoot from the outside. I hate having to explain myself to mental stillborns.