How many T's will the Spurs rack up this season?

[GSH]

We got a taste of the NBA's new technical foul rule in the Heat-Celtics game last night. One of the Heat assistant coaches was T'd for disrespecting the officials from the sideline. And because the new rule has been so well publicised, it was absolutely clear what he had done to draw the foul - right?

Not so much. The television crew covering the game was forced to go back through the video to try and find out what had happened. Even then, the commentators were left to speculate that one particular hand gesture must have been the problem. I'm not talking about a one-finger salute type of hand gesture. It was more on the order of holding his hands up, open and at shoulder level. One of the commentators said that he understood that assistants aren't supposed to talk to the refs at all. I don't know it that is true or not, which is sort of a problem.

In the late game, Houston's Kevin Martin was whistled for barking at one of the refs over a call. Maybe he gestured, or maybe it was the unhappy look on his face. I've seen worse, much worse, in virtually every NBA game I've watched in the last 5 or 6 years. It got me wondering if Tim could be called for a technical for simply opening his eyes really, really wide. Once again, we don't know. And onece again that is sort of a problem.

I don't like rules that can't reallly be stated clearly, or uniformly enforced. Especially when the league is going for a big crackdown, and my favorite team has been singled out as the example of what will no longer be tolerated. I could list a score of other players Kobe Bryantwho routinely protest as bad as, or worse than Duncan. Many of them get very angry and vocal, but it appears that what the league doesn't like is a player who protests silently. It's those shrugs and laughs that really undermine the authority of the officials.

So what do you think? How many technical fouls will the Spurs collect this season? Will it be a lot more than previous seasons, or will they completely quit reacting to calls? The old British royalty used to employ "whipping boys". When a young prince misbehaved, the whipping boy would be punished rather than the future king. Maybe one of the Spurs assistants should step up to be the designated complainer for the players, and collect T's on their behalf. It seems easy enough for an assistant to get the refs attention these days.

[urunobili]

15-30

[Texas_Ranger]

40

[Obstructed_View]

However many it takes early to shut them up is fine with me.

[DesignatedT]

Duncan and Pop will pick up at least 5-10 each

[TJastal]

I don't see much consistency in these new "tech" rules, and its only day 1 of the season, which makes me think its not so much an effort to clean things up but rather another way Stern and his crooked legion of dirty referees can influence games.

Example: In yesterday's rockets vs lakers, bitch Lamar Odumb charges into Budinger who was a good two feet in front of the circle. The arrogant asshole gets that crying pouty expression on his face and stands for a good 5 seconds, hands outstretched towards the officials as if indicating that Budinger was somehow standing in the circle, which he clearly wasn't. The rockets were already halfway up the court before Odumb finally turned and started running back to play defense. Officials do nothing for the crybaby's insolent display.

Later on in the game, Kevin Martin gets called for a shooting foul on (guess who!). Replay shows it was a horrible call, Martin doesn't even touch Kobe. Frustrated, Martin instead turns away from the officals and starts running back and pumps his arm in disgust with the call. He's immediately tee'd up.

[TJastal]

In an unrelated note, the damn commercials nearly drove me insane during that rocket vs laker game. I had to make liberal use of the 'mute' button. Between the rapping asian doofus on a jetski to Derek Fisher pimping yet another energy drink to that horseface Sarah Jessica Parker struttin' around like ms perfect.. geesh...

[GSH]

I don't see much consistency in these new "tech" rules, and its only day 1 of the season, which makes me think its not so much an effort to clean things up but rather another way Stern and his crooked legion of dirty referees can influence games.

Example: In yesterday's rockets vs lakers, bitch Lamar Odumb charges into Budinger who was a good two feet in front of the circle. The arrogant asshole gets that crying pouty expression on his face and stands for a good 5 seconds, hands outstretched towards the officials as if indicating that Budinger was somehow standing in the circle, which he clearly wasn't. The rockets were already halfway up the court before Odumb finally turned and started running back to play defense. Officials do nothing for the crybaby's insolent display.

Later on in the game, Kevin Martin gets called for a shooting foul on (guess who!). Replay shows it was a horrible call, Martin doesn't even touch Kobe. Frustrated, Martin instead turns away from the officals and starts running back and pumps his arm in disgust with the call. He's immediately tee'd up.

Thanks, TJastal. I was hoping someone would mention that. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. We all pretty much accept that certain players get (or avoid) certain calls because of their reputation and stature in the league. Just like we have all grown accustomed to the idea that rookies get no "respect" from the refs - which is a nice way of saying that the whistles aren't evenly distributed. So what would make us think that this new technical foul rule will be any different?

The problem is that when this rule is enforced unequally, it's really going to stand out like a sore thumb. Stern seems to believe that he can cause the referees to be seen in a more positive light, by preventing the players from disrespecting them. But when Lamar Odom is allowed to demonstrate on one end of the floor, while Kevin Martin is T'd up for demonstrating on the other end? That's not going to help the official's cause.

If they are going to enforce this rule at the first sign of a demonstration, they had better do it 100% across the board, without any consideration for the player, the team, or the home court. If they don't it is going to open up more complaints of bias than they have ever had before. Because these calls are outside the game, and the infractions aren't taking place at game speed.

And if they can't see that, maybe it really is a conspiracy.



In an unrelated note, the damn commercials nearly drove me insane during that rocket vs laker game. I had to make liberal use of the 'mute' button. Between the rapping asian doofus on a jetski to Derek Fisher pimping yet another energy drink to that horseface Sarah Jessica Parker struttin' around like ms perfect.. geesh...


I don't know about you, but I had a much harder time listening to Steve Kerr last night. Maybe it was some of the things that happened when he was with Phoenix. But I'm not looking forward to a whole season of his voice.

[wontstartdumbthreads]

Jefferson will have 25 to 30. Easily.

[Cane]

The only player on the Spurs that I can see maybe having problems with this is Duncan but he's a cerebral player and cares about the team and winning to the point where he should adapt if it becomes a problem. The rest of the roster seems to always handle the refs well and technicals hasn't been a problem for the Spurs.

It'll be interesting to see how its enforced but as for the games last night I think the home court advantage had a big factor in it.

[z0sa]

With the new restrictions, and the fact refs are human just like anyone else, it's really hard to tell. Every team is probably gonna jump up a little.

[Obstructed_View]

Kevin Martin did the "ah, phooey" hand gesture which is an automatic technical. Why anyone complains about that is completely incomprehensible.

[Dex]

However many it takes early to shut them up is fine with me.


:tu

[GSH]

Kevin Martin did the "ah, phooey" hand gesture which is an automatic technical. Why anyone complains about that is completely incomprehensible.


:nope Look back at my post. Find where I objected to the refs calling a technical on Kevin Martin. You can't, because it's not there. I don't object to them calling it. I have a problem with them not being consistent. I don't understand why certain people feel the need to be so combattive. But if you are going to do it, at least don't be sloppy or try to put words in someone else's mouth. It's sort of ridiculous to flame someone for something they didn't say.

Here's what Stern recently had to say about the rule:
"When somebody thinks they've been fouled, and they spend -- rather than getting back on defense, they spend the entire time explaining to the referee all the way up. Stop it. That's only designed to undermine the official."

Stern gave a specific example. Lamar Odom did exactly what Stern described, and there was no technical foul call. Stern thinks arguing with the refs undermines them. You know what I think undermines refs? It's when they are inconsistent with the rules. I don't care if they call technicals for complaining - I just want them to do it consistently. And that includes handing out major fines every time Phil Jackson undermines the refs in a press conference.

You say that the "ahh phooey" gesture is an automatic technical. But we have all seen people do it and not get whistled. That's not automatic, it's subjective. It's automatic only in the sense that they have justification for the times when they do elect to call the technical.

Now be honest: Under the new rule, if Tim Duncan were to to exactly what Lamar Odom did last night (and what Stern specifically described), do you think he would get assessed a T by the refs? Regardless of what you say, most people here know the answer to that.

I'd be happy if they got rid of all the whining and complaining in the game. I'd also be happy if they got rid of all the bad calls during the course of a game - but that can't happen. So what I would most like is for the calls to be applied consistently. And that includes technical fouls for complaining.

Is there any part of that you find incomprehensible?

[Obstructed_View]

:nope Look back at my post. Find where I objected to the refs calling a technical on Kevin Martin. You can't, because it's not there. I don't object to them calling it. I have a problem with them not being consistent. I don't understand why certain people feel the need to be so combattive. But if you are going to do it, at least don't be sloppy or try to put words in someone else's mouth. It's sort of ridiculous to flame someone for something they didn't say.

Here's what Stern recently had to say about the rule:
"When somebody thinks they've been fouled, and they spend -- rather than getting back on defense, they spend the entire time explaining to the referee all the way up. Stop it. That's only designed to undermine the official."

Stern gave a specific example. Lamar Odom did exactly what Stern described, and there was no technical foul call. Stern thinks arguing with the refs undermines them. You know what I think undermines refs? It's when they are inconsistent with the rules. I don't care if they call technicals for complaining - I just want them to do it consistently. And that includes handing out major fines every time Phil Jackson undermines the refs in a press conference.

You say that the "ahh phooey" gesture is an automatic technical. But we have all seen people do it and not get whistled. That's not automatic, it's subjective. It's automatic only in the sense that they have justification for the times when they do elect to call the technical.

Now be honest: Under the new rule, if Tim Duncan were to to exactly what Lamar Odom did last night (and what Stern specifically described), do you think he would get assessed a T by the refs? Regardless of what you say, most people here know the answer to that.

I'd be happy if they got rid of all the whining and complaining in the game. I'd also be happy if they got rid of all the bad calls during the course of a game - but that can't happen. So what I would most like is for the calls to be applied consistently. And that includes technical fouls for complaining.

Is there any part of that you find incomprehensible?

Actually I was responding to TJ's post. According to him, Lamar Odom didn't say a word, which means it's far from the example in the Stern quote. If Lamar wants to stand there like a dumbass while the other team has a 5 on 4 advantage, the refs are probably fine with that. The hand gesture Martin made was likely to draw a tech last year, and it's definitely going to draw one this year with the new enforcement.

As for your post, you're referring to what you've been watching over previous years. Only problem is, the change was announced just prior to this season. We've seen two games so far. There's not any fucking way you can complain about a lack of consistency on DAY TWO OF THE SEASON. In my estimation, you're simply looking for a reason to whine about how mean David Stern is to the Spurs.

Here's the bottom line: Duncan didn't talk to officials when he was an MVP. He didn't even question bad calls. Now he's an embarrassment. He needs to shut the fuck up. So does the rest of his team. If he doesn't want a technical, I'm sure he has the self control to keep from "opening his eyes really, really wide". Nobody goes after officials on behalf of his players more than Gregg Popovich does. They should rely on him as a resource and concentrate on their game.

[GSH]

.

You know... no matter how you keep score in life, they don't give any extra points for being a prick. Do you act like this in your professional life, or at home with your wife and kids? You must be a joy to be around.


Actually I was responding to TJ's post. According to him, Lamar Odom didn't say a word, which means it's far from the example in the Stern quote.
In other words, you weren't watching, so you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
If Lamar wants to stand there like a dumbass while the other team has a 5 on 4 advantage, the refs are probably fine with that.
He didn't get back on defense, and he did it specifically to show up the refs. Exactly what Stern spoke about. Again, if you don't know about the subject, at least don't flame people who do.
The hand gesture Martin made was likely to draw a tech last year, and it's definitely going to draw one this year with the new enforcement.
So if we see a single player make a gesture like that and not draw a T, you'll man up and admit you're wrong? Heh... right. And BTW - you said the gesture was already automatic... not likely to draw a tech. "Likely" is subjective, which was my point to begin with.

As for your post, you're referring to what you've been watching over previous years. Only problem is, the change was announced just prior to this season. We've seen two games so far.
No... I'm referring to the new rule. And I've seen two games so far. You already admitted you weren't watching.
There's not any fucking way you can complain about a lack of consistency on DAY TWO OF THE SEASON.
Oh? There's a rule for how long we have to wait to make observations?
In my estimation, you're simply looking for a reason to whine about how mean David Stern is to the Spurs.
In my estimation, you're being an asshole for absolutely no reason. And BTW - the Spurs weren't involved.

Here's the bottom line: Duncan didn't talk to officials when he was an MVP. He didn't even question bad calls.
Do we really have to pull up clips of Duncan talking to officials in his MVP years? That's just a ridiculous statement.
Now he's an embarrassment.
Tim Duncan is an embarassment? I defer to you as the expert on being an embarassment.
He needs to shut the fuck up.
Ditto for you.
So does the rest of his team. If he doesn't want a technical, I'm sure he has the self control to keep from "opening his eyes really, really wide". Nobody goes after officials on behalf of his players more than Gregg Popovich does. They should rely on him as a resource and concentrate on their game.
I'm sure Tim is anxiously awaiting your opinion on how he should play the game.

[ShoogarBear]

When's the first Joey Crawford game? :hungry:

[Obstructed_View]

.

You know... no matter how you keep score in life, they don't give any extra points for being a prick. Do you act like this in your professional life, or at home with your wife and kids? You must be a joy to be around.

:lmao I wasn't even responding to your post, and you got your ass all bent out of shape and started lecturing me, so you might take your own advice about being a prick, you stupid douchebag. :lol:lol:lol

Now you're calling me names because I correctly pointed out that you can't tell the fucking difference between BEFORE the rule change and AFTER the rule change. You still can't seem to tell the difference since I clearly stated that it was likely to be a technical last year and is definitely going to be one this year (I even underlined it and you still can't figure it out.) :lol

By the way, I watched both games last night. I'm not sure where you got it in your head that I didn't, but it doesn't change the fact that two games is not enough time to start saying they aren't consistent with the calls. :lol

[GSH]

Meh... I didn't even bother reading your last whine. With that many emotes, there's never any content. Now you'll just have to go kick the dog, or yell at your wife or whatever people like you do.

Next time, try to just disagree without being such a tool, and you won't wind up feeling to frustrated.

[Obstructed_View]

Meh... I didn't even bother reading your last whine. With that many emotes, there's never any content. Now you'll just have to go kick the dog, or yell at your wife or whatever people like you do.

Next time, try to just disagree without being such a tool, and you won't wind up feeling to frustrated.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, you stupid moron. This is the third time I'm telling you that I was responding to TJ's post. I'm laughing at you because you're an idiot. :lol

[TJastal]

Kevin Martin did the "ah, phooey" hand gesture which is an automatic technical. Why anyone complains about that is completely incomprehensible.

First off, only a moron believes this is a cut and dry issue. Guess what, its still subjective to the referee's interpretation and discretion whatever you may believe.

Second, Martin's "ah, phooey" hand gesture wasn't even directed at the official, in fact he had turned away and was running back down the court. I think there is a legitimate difference, and as GSH pointed out for you, Stern's main problem is players getting into officials' faces to show them up,argue, and/or disrespect, which is exactly what Odumb did (and does all the time).

The announcers even made mention of the fact that Martin was just blowing off steam and that players need to be able to do that in a way that is appropriate.

[phyzik]

I Think the Spurs will be alright as far as the new rule is concerned. they are not stupid and Pop knows how to calm them down.

I honestly dont foresee more than 3 TF's added to their average.

I, For one, amd glad they added this rule.... It just remains to be seen how much its abused by overzealous refs.

[TJastal]

Tonight watching the clipper-blazer game, I caught this snippet.

Mike Breen: Baron Davis, testing the rookie Arman Johnson from Nevada and the foul is called..., and we have a technical foul. So, this..new rule regarding technicals and overreacting or ANY demonstrative action has been called here, by Monty McCutcheon on the rookie Johnson.

Hubie Brooks: Well..,

Mike Breen: (interrupting) And before that, he was called for a 'T', and we've been talking about that throughout the year.

Hubie Brooks: I think it puts alot of pressure on the refs, Mike. What is a 'T' tonight, who is the guy who is doing the demonstration. Last night in the laker game, a prime time player, one of the best that we have in the league did EXACTLY the same thing in the lane (laughs) in front of the guy, and there was no call. That's why I say, WHO is the guy who is demonstrating, and, WHAT section of the game are we in.

Mike Breen: You mean, game 2 for Arman Johnson? Different set of rules?

Hubie: (laughs)

[TJastal]

Lemme think here, who's opinion do I trust more, mine & a 29 year hall of fame twice named COY turned nba analyst...

or Obstructed_nutsack on spurstalk...

hmm... tough choice, but I think I'll go with me & Hubie.

[AussieFanKurt]

maybe 1 every 2 games

[Obstructed_View]

First off, only a moron believes this is a cut and dry issue. Guess what, its still subjective to the referee's interpretation and discretion whatever you may believe.

Second, Martin's "ah, phooey" hand gesture wasn't even directed at the official, in fact he had turned away and was running back down the court. I think there is a legitimate difference, and as GSH pointed out for you, Stern's main problem is players getting into officials' faces to show them up,argue, and/or disrespect, which is exactly what Odumb did (and does all the time).

The announcers even made mention of the fact that Martin was just blowing off steam and that players need to be able to do that in a way that is appropriate.
Oh, so you're going to take GSH's lead and start calling names too? Oh well, here goes:

Nobody ever said it was a cut and dry issue, but thanks for the strawman. Doing that hand gesture , however, is a fucking easy call, and bitching about it is stupid. Will it be called 100 percent of the time? Who knows? But if it's called 100 percent of the time, it's completely justified. If you bitch about that, you're stupid. If Hubie Brown bitches about that, he's stupid. Players that think they need to make that particular hand gesture while "blowing off steam" are going to find themselves getting technicals far more often than not.

If Lamar Odom stands there like a fucking douche and doesn't say anything, it is, as you said, subjective to the referee's interpretation. So why are you bitching about it? The ref decided not to tee him up. Only a moron thinks this is a cut and dry issue.

Who the fuck is Hubie Brooks?

[temujin]

When's the first Joey Crawford game? :hungry:

Not untill the NBA Finals.

Got to keep his precious minutes in check.

[temujin]

You guys missed on the last Lakers' foul by gasol, and the circus he put on thereafter.

No T.

It's going to be a loooong season for Lakers' opponents.

[GSH]

In last night's Spurs game, the use of the new rule was also inconsistent because of a couple of technicals that they DIDN'T make against Spurs players. In several pre-season games, the refs T'd up players for exactly the same amount of "demonstration" that Spurs players exhibited. I never said that there was any conspiracy against the Spurs. The point is that players and coaches should not be uncertain what is going to draw a foul, and what isn't. And the refs shouldn't be hesitant to make the same call against a star player that they would make against a rookie.

I found an article at Probasketballtalk about the subject that states some of the same things I was talking about. Maybe they did a better job.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/14/players-union-to-file-legal-challenge-to-new-technical-crackdown/ Here are a couple of comments from that article:

"Well done NBA League office. You issue an edict on players complaining aimed in part to stop making referees the focus of games — and you take it so far you put the focus back on the referees." One of the main points I was making. If the rule is not implemented VERY consistently, it will have the exact opposite effect from the one desired. I'm all for the new rule, and putting a stop to all the complaining. But if they aren't even-handed, it will call even more attention to the refs, and bring even more complaints about them being biased.

"The league said it instituted the crackdown after focus groups and market research said people were tired of players complaining after every call. League officials have gone to every team and explained the new line in the sand on what will and will not lead to a technical.... But so far that line has been enforced about as consistently as block/charge calls."Contrary to what ObstructedView claims, there were a lot more than two games in which the new rule was enforced. In the pre-season, the T's were handed out very inconsistently. The thought was that by the regular season, they would have the bugs worked out. But in both opening night games, there were still discrepancies.

Most of the adults I've discussed this with have been able to understand it. For this rule to work, it has to be consistent. And I think that allowing "a little bit" of complaining isn't going to be possible, because it's too subjective. It almost has to be all-or-nothing, or it's going to backfire on them.

Some people say that after the initial shock, the complaining will stop and they won't have to enforce the rule as strictly - which seems like where we were in the Spurs first game. Sorry, but I don't think that randomly enforcing the rule is going to work out for them.

[TJastal]

Oh, so you're going to take GSH's lead and start calling names too? Oh well, here goes:

Nobody ever said it was a cut and dry issue, but thanks for the strawman. Doing that hand gesture , however, is a fucking easy call, and bitching about it is stupid. Will it be called 100 percent of the time? Who knows? But if it's called 100 percent of the time, it's completely justified. If you bitch about that, you're stupid. If Hubie Brown bitches about that, he's stupid. Players that think they need to make that particular hand gesture while "blowing off steam" are going to find themselves getting technicals far more often than not.

If Lamar Odom stands there like a fucking douche and doesn't say anything, it is, as you said, subjective to the referee's interpretation. So why are you bitching about it? The ref decided not to tee him up. Only a moron thinks this is a cut and dry issue.

Who the fuck is Hubie Brooks?

So at least you (sort of) admit that it is subjective to the referree now. You did say it was a no-brainer call before.

Our point remains (and Hubie's too) why is Lamar Odom allowed to demonstrate in front of the official with no consequence while others are getting slapped with technicals for what IMO are even lesser offenses.

Maybe you can answer that, since your smarter than all of us put together.

[GSH]

Who the fuck is Hubie Brooks?

He made a mistake. We all know he meant Hubie Brown. Why do you have to be such an obnoxious asshole? Did your dad yell at you too much when you were a kid? Damn... get some counseling.

Hubie Brooks was a major league baseball player. Famous names that sound alike can get crossed in someone's head. It's part of being human.

[TJastal]

In last night's Spurs game, the use of the new rule was also inconsistent because of a couple of technicals that they DIDN'T make against Spurs players. In several pre-season games, the refs T'd up players for exactly the same amount of "demonstration" that Spurs players exhibited. I never said that there was any conspiracy against the Spurs. The point is that players and coaches should not be uncertain what is going to draw a foul, and what isn't. And the refs shouldn't be hesitant to make the same call against a star player that they would make against a rookie.

I found an article at Probasketballtalk about the subject that states some of the same things I was talking about. Maybe they did a better job.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/14/players-union-to-file-legal-challenge-to-new-technical-crackdown/ Here are a couple of comments from that article:

"Well done NBA League office. You issue an edict on players complaining aimed in part to stop making referees the focus of games — and you take it so far you put the focus back on the referees." One of the main points I was making. If the rule is not implemented VERY consistently, it will have the exact opposite effect from the one desired. I'm all for the new rule, and putting a stop to all the complaining. But if they aren't even-handed, it will call even more attention to the refs, and bring even more complaints about them being biased.

"The league said it instituted the crackdown after focus groups and market research said people were tired of players complaining after every call. League officials have gone to every team and explained the new line in the sand on what will and will not lead to a technical.... But so far that line has been enforced about as consistently as block/charge calls."Contrary to what ObstructedView claims, there were a lot more than two games in which the new rule was enforced. In the pre-season, the T's were handed out very inconsistently. The thought was that by the regular season, they would have the bugs worked out. But in both opening night games, there were still discrepancies.

Most of the adults I've discussed this with have been able to understand it. For this rule to work, it has to be consistent. And I think that allowing "a little bit" of complaining isn't going to be possible, because it's too subjective. It almost has to be all-or-nothing, or it's going to backfire on them.

Some people say that after the initial shock, the complaining will stop and they won't have to enforce the rule as strictly - which seems like where we were in the Spurs first game. Sorry, but I don't think that randomly enforcing the rule is going to work out for them.

Personally, I don't like the all-or-nothing approach, players IMO have to be allowed to vent frustrations during the course of the game. It should be subjective to the officials what is appropriate and fair as opposed to what is going over the line.

IMO, what Kevin Martin did came close to that line but didn't cross it, while Odumb's actions clearly DID. He didn't plant himself in an officials face with a long stare down and hand gesture like Odom did. There was no pause at all to make a scene/demonstrate to an official; in fact he immediately started running the opposite direction, which directly conforms with the spirit of David Stern's own edict, that you found and generously posted earlier, GSH.


"When somebody thinks they've been fouled, and they spend -- rather than getting back on defense, they spend the entire time explaining to the referee all the way up. Stop it. That's only designed to undermine the official."

What do you think, GSH?

[gospursgojas]

NBA tried to do this a few years ago. Unsucsessfully. Yall dont remember?

[TJastal]

NBA tried to do this a few years ago. Unsucsessfully. Yall dont remember?

It would be successful if officials actually used the directives given to them in a fair and consistent manner across the board.

I don't recall the previous attempt. Why did that one fail?

[gospursgojas]

It would be successful if officials actually used the directives given to them in a fair and consistent manner across the board.

I don't recall the previous attempt. Why did that one fail?

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association_criticisms_and_con troversies#cite_note-28


At the start of the 2006-07 NBA season, the NBA instituted a new rule regarding in-game player complaints. The "no tolerance rule", as it was referred to by players and the media, allowed referees to call technical fouls when players complained too vehemently about calls.

The season started with a spike in the number of technical fouls and ejections. There were "one-hundred-four technicals and seven ejections in the first fifty-one games," while "only seven games of the first fifty-one games thus far have had no technical fouls".[29] Denver Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony, who would later be suspended for his participation in a fight later that year, was suspended on opening night of the season after two technical fouls.

“ Although Anthony wasn't looking at or speaking to referee Ted Washington, he received a second technical with the Nuggets behind by two points in the third quarter. He got the "T" for throwing his headband to the floor after being called for his fourth foul.[30] ”

Some observers viewed the rule as unfair and taking the passion out of the game; others believed that it only served to take pressure off of referees who made bad calls.

“ I don't like it. Basketball is an emotional game; guys are always going to express their thoughts about calls. ... There are times you are going to disagree. You shouldn't get a "T" for nit-picky things.[31] ”
—Corliss Williamson, Sacramento Kings

“ Over-the-top complaints and gestures should certainly be penalized, but the rule goes too far. Does David Stern believe that disallowing the players' protests will fool fans into accepting the infallibility of the refs?[32] ”
—Charley Rosen, Fox Sports


Others agreed with the rule, viewing it as a much needed policy to cut down on the "whining" by players in the league.

“ Nobody likes the scowling, the arm-waving, the stomping and ball-slamming, certainly not after a meaningless call in the second quarter of some game in mid-November. And such ridiculousness was one reason why too many consumers perceived NBA players as self-absorbed, overbearing, churlish and out of touch. ... Too many are out of touch with the people who pay the freight. Who pays to come to the arena to see this demonstrative complaining? Nobody. The notion some players have put forth, that the NBA is trying to take the emotion from the game, is so preposterous it's insulting.[33] ”
—Michael Wilbon, Washington Post


After the initial spike at the start of the season, the amount of technical fouls and ejections declined significantly towards the middle of the year. Several players, including Denver Nuggets guard Allen Iverson, were still ejected on technical fouls; Iverson's ejection came during his first game against his former team, the Philadelphia 76ers, and he was later fined by the league for claiming that referee Steve Javie ejected him on the basis of a feud the two supposedly had.[34]

[GSH]

Personally, I don't like the all-or-nothing approach, players IMO have to be allowed to vent frustrations during the course of the game. It should be subjective to the officials what is appropriate and fair as opposed to what is going over the line.

IMO, what Kevin Martin did came close to that line but didn't cross it, while Odumb's actions clearly DID. He didn't plant himself in an officials face with a long stare down and hand gesture like Odom did. There was no pause at all to make a scene/demonstrate to an official; in fact he immediately started running the opposite direction, which directly conforms with the spirit of David Stern's own edict, that you found and generously posted earlier, GSH.

What do you think, GSH?

Like Dennis Miller says: I don't want to go on a rant here, but -

The real truth? I mind it a lot more when Kobe Bryant complains, and a lot less when Tim Duncan does it. I suspect most NBA fans feel the same, to some degree. I'm honest enough with myself to admit it.

I think that screaming in a refs face, or charging at one, should always have drawn an immediate ejection. Those are threatening acts, and should never have been tolerated - from any player, at any time. And a T just isn't enough.

I think that a lot of the problems refs have, they bring on themselves. There are always going to be bad calls, because they are human. But there are times when refs "swallow their whistles", for no apparent reason. There are times when they call every little thing, again for no apparent reason. They call stars differently than journeymen, and rookies different than everyone else. The refs are professionals, but so are the players. And inconsistency makes people all crazy-like.

I can understand that too much whining and complaining isn't good for the game. But, honestly, most of the time I don't think too much about it. Mostly it bothers me when a player commits an obvious foul or goal-tend, and then bitches when it gets called. But I don't see any way to get rid of the "bad" complaining, without getting rid of the "good" complaining.

I don't mind the new rule. I do think that watching players walk away from horrible calls like robots feels a little unnatural, but I'll get used to it. My biggest problem is that nobody really wants to turn the players into robots. So they are going to allow "a little bit" of complaining. Which means it will be subjective - too harsh some times, and probably called less against superstars. And if it's going to be that way, I'd rather they just left things alone.

Unlike some fans, I don't think Tim Duncan is a disgrace. I can't imagine that thought ever even crossing my mind. I don't believe that Tim argues any more than a lot of other players. But then again, I never believed that Manu used his long hair to draw more charging calls. But I guess George Karl, and people like him, are entitled to their opinions.

[Whisky Dog]

Every got damn rule this league makes doesn't apply to superstars like Kobe/Lebron/Wade etc and doesn't apply to the lakers. I guarantee they'll get away with a ton of this shut during the year, and the rest of the league will pick up more of these types of weak techs. Rookies and marginal role players will pick them up like crazy.

The NBA with their superstar rules isn't unbiased enough to handle policing their own league. They're going to be biased because they always have been. If they really want the complaining to stop they'd set a clear cut boundary for speaking to or gesturing at a red and employ an unbiased 3rd party to review every game film then start fining players for every time they cross the set boundary. If you leave this shit up to officials to interpret you're going to get even more biased BS.

[TJastal]

Like Dennis Miller says: I don't want to go on a rant here, but -

The real truth? I mind it a lot more when Kobe Bryant complains, and a lot less when Tim Duncan does it. I suspect most NBA fans feel the same, to some degree. I'm honest enough with myself to admit it.

I think that screaming in a refs face, or charging at one, should always have drawn an immediate ejection. Those are threatening acts, and should never have been tolerated - from any player, at any time. And a T just isn't enough.

I think that a lot of the problems refs have, they bring on themselves. There are always going to be bad calls, because they are human. But there are times when refs "swallow their whistles", for no apparent reason. There are times when they call every little thing, again for no apparent reason. They call stars differently than journeymen, and rookies different than everyone else. The refs are professionals, but so are the players. And inconsistency makes people all crazy-like.

I can understand that too much whining and complaining isn't good for the game. But, honestly, most of the time I don't think too much about it. Mostly it bothers me when a player commits an obvious foul or goal-tend, and then bitches when it gets called. But I don't see any way to get rid of the "bad" complaining, without getting rid of the "good" complaining.

I don't mind the new rule. I do think that watching players walk away from horrible calls like robots feels a little unnatural, but I'll get used to it. My biggest problem is that nobody really wants to turn the players into robots. So they are going to allow "a little bit" of complaining. Which means it will be subjective - too harsh some times, and probably called less against superstars. And if it's going to be that way, I'd rather they just left things alone.

Unlike some fans, I don't think Tim Duncan is a disgrace. I can't imagine that thought ever even crossing my mind. I don't believe that Tim argues any more than a lot of other players. But then again, I never believed that Manu used his long hair to draw more charging calls. But I guess George Karl, and people like him, are entitled to their opinions.

You didn't really address my argument about Martin's actions vs Odumbs, in light of Stern's own directives that you yourself posted earlier. Do you or don't you think Kevin Martin's actions conformed better within the letter of Stern's own words than Lamar Odumbs actions? Which one (or both) warranted the technical being called? In your opinion.

And I think its fairly easy to spot the 'bad' complaining and take appropriate measures. Lamar Odumb making a scene in front of a ref because he got called for running over a guy who was a good 2 feet in front of the circle would be a textbook example of this. In my humble opinion (which I agree could be biased to a certain extent) :D

[Mixability]

When did any of the rules apply to the Lakers?

[GSH]

I'll say one more thing about this, and then drop it. See if you can figure out why I think the new rule will be enforced arbitrarily:

Does anyone even remember last season? The rules call for a 1-game suspension with 15 technical fouls, and another 1 game for every 2 technicals after that. Dwight Howard got called for a total of 17 technical fouls, but never served a single game's suspension. Why? The league rescinded 3 of them. That allowed him to magically finish the season with 14 T's, one less than the number for a suspension.

Kendrick Perkins of the Celtics also collected 14 technicals, then never got another. Not because he didn't deserve any. He just seemed to become immune to them.

The counter re-sets in the playoffs. A player that gets 7 techs in the playoffs is suspended for 1 game.

Kendrick Perkins got his 6th AND 7th technicals in Game 5 of the ECF. Automatic suspension. That meant that he was suspended for Game 6, right? Wrong. The league rescinded one of his T's, and he got to play in Game 6. Amazingly, he never got another for the rest of the playoffs. Probably because he became such a boy scout.

Also in the playoffs, Dwight Howard had 5 technical fouls, and 2 flagrant foul points. (4 flagrant points gets you a 1-game suspension) Then he picked up his 6th technical, leaving him only 1 away from a suspension - so the league rescinded that T, leaving him with only 5 once again.

Then he elbowed Samuel Dalembert in the head. The rules call for an immediate ejection for an intentional elbow to the head. Instead, the refs gave him a technical foul and let him stay in the game. What?

The league later gave Howard a 1-game suspension for the elbow. That makes everything okay, right?

Not really. Had they called the flagrant 2, Howard would have gotten a suspension. But another flagrant in the playoffs would have given him a mandatory 2-game suspension. So by giving him a technical foul and a suspension, they didn't increase his flagrant foul points.

Perkins, Howard, and Kobe Bryant all had 6 techs in the playoffs. And so they all changed their behavior for the rest of the post-season. Right? Not so much. But a lot of people don't know that the refs conference before every game, and one of the things they discuss is who is 1 call away from a suspension. (That's not a guess, it's a fact.) A lot of people believe that players become bullet-proof when they are facing a suspension. And only something egregious could draw that last technical or flagrant. Unless the player is Rasheed Wallace, of course.

Later, Stu Jackson bragged that no player has ever been suspended for flagrants or for technicals in the playoffs. No shit, Stu? You never will, as long as you enforce the rules arbitrarily, and rescind fouls.

Now the real question: Why WOULDN'T the new technical rule be enforced inconsistently and arbitrarily? The rule may have changed, but not the basic philosophy of the league. Regardless of what Obstructed thinks, history is on my side on this one. Not to mention the erratic use of the new rule in the pre-season, and the first few games.

Done.

[Old School 44]

My issue with the new rule is this scenario. It's a heated playoff game, a few of the players already have one technical, including a star player. The star player is called for a foul at a critical point in the game. He reacts to the call, not too over the top, but under the new rules still gets a T. He gets thrown out of the game for picking up his second T. Almost the entire team is complaining, including the coaches, do they all get T'd up?

Don't get me wrong, I don't like all the excessive complaining either, but it's a emotional game, and in the playoffs that emotion is ramped up. I think the NBA is setting themselves up for an ugly scenario to occur.

[TJastal]

I'll say one more thing about this, and then drop it. See if you can figure out why I think the new rule will be enforced arbitrarily:

Does anyone even remember last season? The rules call for a 1-game suspension with 15 technical fouls, and another 1 game for every 2 technicals after that. Dwight Howard got called for a total of 17 technical fouls, but never served a single game's suspension. Why? The league rescinded 3 of them. That allowed him to magically finish the season with 14 T's, one less than the number for a suspension.

Kendrick Perkins of the Celtics also collected 14 technicals, then never got another. Not because he didn't deserve any. He just seemed to become immune to them.

The counter re-sets in the playoffs. A player that gets 7 techs in the playoffs is suspended for 1 game.

Kendrick Perkins got his 6th AND 7th technicals in Game 5 of the ECF. Automatic suspension. That meant that he was suspended for Game 6, right? Wrong. The league rescinded one of his T's, and he got to play in Game 6. Amazingly, he never got another for the rest of the playoffs. Probably because he became such a boy scout.

Also in the playoffs, Dwight Howard had 5 technical fouls, and 2 flagrant foul points. (4 flagrant points gets you a 1-game suspension) Then he picked up his 6th technical, leaving him only 1 away from a suspension - so the league rescinded that T, leaving him with only 5 once again.

Then he elbowed Samuel Dalembert in the head. The rules call for an immediate ejection for an intentional elbow to the head. Instead, the refs gave him a technical foul and let him stay in the game. What?

The league later gave Howard a 1-game suspension for the elbow. That makes everything okay, right?

Not really. Had they called the flagrant 2, Howard would have gotten a suspension. But another flagrant in the playoffs would have given him a mandatory 2-game suspension. So by giving him a technical foul and a suspension, they didn't increase his flagrant foul points.

Perkins, Howard, and Kobe Bryant all had 6 techs in the playoffs. And so they all changed their behavior for the rest of the post-season. Right? Not so much. But a lot of people don't know that the refs conference before every game, and one of the things they discuss is who is 1 call away from a suspension. (That's not a guess, it's a fact.) A lot of people believe that players become bullet-proof when they are facing a suspension. And only something egregious could draw that last technical or flagrant. Unless the player is Rasheed Wallace, of course.

Later, Stu Jackson bragged that no player has ever been suspended for flagrants or for technicals in the playoffs. No shit, Stu? You never will, as long as you enforce the rules arbitrarily, and rescind fouls.

Now the real question: Why WOULDN'T the new technical rule be enforced inconsistently and arbitrarily? The rule may have changed, but not the basic philosophy of the league. Regardless of what Obstructed thinks, history is on my side on this one. Not to mention the erratic use of the new rule in the pre-season, and the first few games.

Done.

Seems to me, the league really doesn't want to suspend anyone if it can help it (thus the rescinding of 1 tech to keep guys from being suspended who are over the limit), but that's all the leeway they are willing to give. So a guy who goes over the limit and gets a "gift" of a 1 tech rescindment best be on pins and needles after that. So the "philosophy" of the league is working just fine, IMO. In that regard, at least. The real problem to me right now is the inconsistent application of the rules/jargon that lead to the techs in the 1st place.

[Spurs Brazil]

I though RJ would get a T after his reaction on his 4th foul and Manu for his reaction after he fouled Dunleavy

[Obstructed_View]

So at least you (sort of) admit that it is subjective to the referree now. You did say it was a no-brainer call before.
When did I say the Lamar Odom play was a no-brainer technical? I said the Kevin Martin play was a no-brainer technical.


Our point remains (and Hubie's too) why is Lamar Odom allowed to demonstrate in front of the official with no consequence while others are getting slapped with technicals for what IMO are even lesser offenses.
Ask the official from the Laker game. Better yet, see your own quote that it's subjective to the referee. Translation: It's a judgment call. IMO = "in my opinion". Whether you think one offense is lesser is irrelevant.

My original post had to do with the Martin call. What Martin did was an easy call because he made the hand gesture. It's a point of emphasis. Will refs call that hand gesture 100 percent of the time? Probably not, but they're completely justified if they do.

Gee, seems like I've said this all before. I guess I'll keep explaining it until you actually read one of my posts and pay attention to it.

[Obstructed_View]

I though RJ would get a T after his reaction on his 4th foul and Manu for his reaction after he fouled Dunleavy

Yep, I was expecting a whistle on both of those plays. Manu really deserved it.

[Obstructed_View]

He made a mistake. We all know he meant Hubie Brown. Why do you have to be such an obnoxious asshole? Did your dad yell at you too much when you were a kid? Damn... get some counseling.


I made a simple post about a simple technical call, and I got two of you ranting and raving and calling me names. At what point am I allowed to respond to your hostility in kind?

If someone's going to post about how stupid someone else is and how smart they are, they might make sure to get the names of people right. Helps them to look mor smartr.

[TJastal]

When did I say the Lamar Odom play was a no-brainer technical? I said the Kevin Martin play was a no-brainer technical.


Ask the official from the Laker game. Better yet, see your own quote that it's subjective to the referee. Translation: It's a judgment call. IMO = "in my opinion". Whether you think one offense is lesser is irrelevant.

My original post had to do with the Martin call. What Martin did was an easy call because he made the hand gesture. It's a point of emphasis. Will refs call that hand gesture 100 percent of the time? Probably not, but they're completely justified if they do.

Gee, seems like I've said this all before. I guess I'll keep explaining it until you actually read one of my posts and pay attention to it.

I read your post the 1st time (and the rehashed 2nd, 3rd, etc). You keep saying the tech on Kevin Martin is a "no-brainer" call that the refs were justified in calling, which I disagree with. It wasn't a tech last year either, FYI.

You were also given the direct quote from David Stern which basically lays out what the league is pissed about and what the league should be concerned about. Which is guys getting in the officials faces and arguing/demonstrating instead of running the other way. Now with the spirit of Stern's words in mind, who in your opinion should be assessed a technical, the douchebag that gets into the officals face & stares them down waving his arms back and forth repeatedly while his teammates are running the other way? Or the guy who turns and runs the other way and makes a meek gesture of dissapproval while running the opposite direction?

Btw, do you really think you're smarter than Hubie Brown? (thanks for pointing out that mistake btw, because I'm sure everybody was confused :rolleyes)

[wontstartdumbthreads]

I though RJ would get a T after his reaction on his 4th foul and Manu for his reaction after he fouled Dunleavy

He's much more effective at getting T-bags.

[Obstructed_View]

I read your post the 1st time (and the rehashed 2nd, 3rd, etc). You keep saying the tech on Kevin Martin is a "no-brainer" call that the refs were justified in calling, which I disagree with. It wasn't a tech last year either, FYI.
Doing that hand gesture was about the surest way to get a technical last year. That gesture was mentioned as a point of emphasis prior to this summer when they announced that they were going to crack down. That makes it as close to a no-brainer call as you're going to find. You're welcome to disagree with my take on the situation, but I didn't come in here trying to start a fight, especially with your original post that caused me to reply.

Look, when a crew tees up one team for doing something and then completely ignores the other team's superstar doing the exact same thing, come find me and I'll be right there with you. You and I both know the refs are going to fuck up and do that at some point. Until then, I have yet to see a case for being inconsistent. As mentioned, I'm really surprised RJ and Manu didn't get a tech last night for arguing. This new initiative may die the same death the one from five years ago did.

[TJastal]

Doing that hand gesture was about the surest way to get a technical last year. That gesture was mentioned as a point of emphasis prior to this summer when they announced that they were going to crack down. That makes it as close to a no-brainer call as you're going to find. You're welcome to disagree with my take on the situation, but I didn't come in here trying to start a fight, especially with your original post that caused me to reply.

Look, when a crew tees up one team for doing something and then completely ignores the other team's superstar doing the exact same thing, come find me and I'll be right there with you. You and I both know the refs are going to fuck up and do that at some point. Until then, I have yet to see a case for being inconsistent. As mentioned, I'm really surprised RJ and Manu didn't get a tech last night for arguing. This new initiative may die the same death the one from five years ago did.

Well since I'm welcome to disagree with your oh-so-innocent "I really didn't mean to start trouble" take, I will. I don't recall anyone ever getting a technical for making a small hand gesture of protest (not even directed AT the officials) as Martin did. But hey, apparently I just haven't been watching the right games. (ya right).

So I went and looked up some additional info on this.

http://www.daily-news-trends.com/tag/nba-technical-foul-rules/


Referees have been instructed to call a technical for:

• Players making aggressive gestures, such as air punches, anywhere on the court.

• Demonstrative disagreement, such as when a player incredulously raises his hands, or smacks his own arm to demonstrate how he was fouled.

• Running directly at an official to complain about a call.

• Excessive inquiries about a call, even in a civilized tone.

In addition, referees have been instructed to consider calling technicals on players who use body language to question or demonstrate displeasure, or say things like, “Come on!” They can also consider technicals for players who “take the long path to the official”, walking across the court to make their case.

I have a hard time seeing how a simple "ah,phooey" hand gesture (not even done AT the official mind you) equates with an "aggressive gesture".

Conversely, Lamar Odom's little demonstration fits perfectly among the criteria of several of the bullet points, yet goes uncalled.

Btw, you never answered me before, do you think your smarter than Hubie Brown, yes or no?

[Obstructed_View]

Well since I'm welcome to disagree with your oh-so-innocent "I really didn't mean to start trouble" take, I will. I don't recall anyone ever getting a technical for making a small hand gesture of protest (not even directed AT the officials) as Martin did. But hey, apparently I just haven't been watching the right games. (ya right).

So I went and looked up some additional info on this.

http://www.daily-news-trends.com/tag/nba-technical-foul-rules/



I have a hard time seeing how a simple "ah,phooey" hand gesture (not even done AT the official mind you) equates with an "aggressive gesture".

Conversely, Lamar Odom's little demonstration fits perfectly among the criteria of several of the bullet points, yet goes uncalled.

Btw, you never answered me before, do you think your smarter than Hubie Brown, yes or no?

First of all, I'm quite a bit smarter Hubie Brown, which is completely irrelevant to anything. Since you seem to think it's important I answer, now you have it. Usually once a game, Hubie comments on how something is a bad call, then the replay shows that it wasn't and Hubie doesn't back away from his position. Being able to admit you made a mistake has nothing to do with your IQ, so even if I weren't smarter than Hubie Brown I wouldn't be using his opinions as a basis for my argument.

Second, the hand gesture thing became a point of emphasis years ago. What you just quoted is from a few months ago. If you go back and read, I've already mentioned the timeline at least once. It's getting tedious having to explain the same thing over and over to people that don't seem to want to understand.

Third, this conversation is completely moot, because this new emphasis on technicals is just as doomed as the previous one was. Last time the officials stuck with it for a few games, but this time the officials don't seem to have the balls to blow the whistle. Given subsequent games, your Lamar Odom example is now completely valid.

Al Jefferson did the "incredulous hand raise" last night accompanied by the biggest cry-baby face I've ever seen and didn't get teed up. In fact, with all the whining that went on between the Jazz and the Suns, the only tech they managed to blow for the entire game was against Robin Lopez. He deserved it, but at least three other guys did worse, and Jefferson did the "slapping himself on the arm" thing too, if memory serves. I'm now fully aboard the "inconsistent" train with you guys.

It's only a matter of time before a crew whistles JJ Reddick for arguing and then lets Dwayne Wade get away with the exact same thing two possessions later.

By the way, did anyone else notice the NBA broadcasts quickly cutting away from the court after a whistle so the reactions of the players are hard to see? I know they've been doing it on ESPN and TNT. Sounds like a directive from the league to me. What do you think?

[TJastal]

First of all, I'm quite a bit smarter Hubie Brown, which is completely irrelevant to anything. Since you seem to think it's important I answer, now you have it.
Fine, your entitled to your opinion. Wouldn't say I necessarily agree with you.

Usually once a game, Hubie comments on how something is a bad call, then the replay shows that it wasn't and Hubie doesn't back away from his position.
And for every one he gets wrong he correctly points out 3 missed calls by the officials.

Being able to admit you made a mistake has nothing to do with your IQ, so even if I weren't smarter than Hubie Brown I wouldn't be using his opinions as a basis for my argument.
Second, the hand gesture thing became a point of emphasis years ago. What you just quoted is from a few months ago. If you go back and read, I've already mentioned the timeline at least once. It's getting tedious having to explain the same thing over and over to people that don't seem to want to understand. Can you provide a link at least, to back up what you're claiming? Not that I don't believe you, but its nice to have something more than "your word".

Third, this conversation is completely moot, because this new emphasis on technicals is just as doomed as the previous one was. Last time the officials stuck with it for a few games, but this time the officials don't seem to have the balls to blow the whistle. Given subsequent games, your Lamar Odom example is now completely valid.Of course it is. I already knew it was.

Al Jefferson did the "incredulous hand raise" last night accompanied by the biggest cry-baby face I've ever seen and didn't get teed up. In fact, with all the whining that went on between the Jazz and the Suns, the only tech they managed to blow for the entire game was against Robin Lopez. He deserved it, but at least three other guys did worse, and Jefferson did the "slapping himself on the arm" thing too, if memory serves. I'm now fully aboard the "inconsistent" train with you guys. I'm going to be watching that game this afternoon, I will make sure to pay close attention to Jefferson's conduct

It's only a matter of time before a crew whistles JJ Reddick for arguing and then lets Dwayne Wade get away with the exact same thing two possessions later.Wouldn't be shocking. I'm watching the heat vs magic right now and the officials are without a doubt in miami's pocket

By the way, did anyone else notice the NBA broadcasts quickly cutting away from the court after a whistle so the reactions of the players are hard to see? I know they've been doing it on ESPN and TNT. Sounds like a directive from the league to me. What do you think? Haven't noticed this, but usually they show a replay on a tech /shrug

[Obstructed_View]

Hubie doesn't point out missed calls. He gets more wrong than the officials do, and he has the benefit of an army of technical guys feeding replay video to him and whispering in his ear. If he were such a brilliant basketball mind, he'd be coaching, not doing the same job as Reggie Miller.

The information about the hand gesture has come from broadcasts over the past several years. I can't link to that. If you've watched as much basketball as you claim then you should have heard it. I didn't make it up.

The Lamar Odom example wasn't a valid example in and of itself. It's really easy to make a guess based on it, but that's all it is without subsequent actions to back it up.

I've yet to see the officials in anyone's "pocket". The Magic missed like fifty shots, so they didn't really need officiating to lose games for them.

I have yet to see much of an angle on a replay of a tech, but the only ones I've seen for demonstrations so far are Martin and Lopez. They cut away from both quickly, didn't show a replay for Lopez, and even cut away from the delay technical on Deron Williams. They showed it once they figured out it was a delay. Really not enough information to know for sure, but I'll be keeping my eye on it.