New Strategy in Afghanistan=GTFO

[spursncowboys]

This war is a joke! They have handcuffed the soldiers on the ground so much that not only can we not do our job but we are unable to fight back.
-In my first month here, we were going to recon an area where the Taliban used to shoot an RPG and kill our Troop Commander. When we got there and dismounted, we were instantly shot at with RPG's, RPK's and small arms (probably AK's) from three sides. One side was on a cemetary one was through a corn field and the other was in a clot (the type of houses ). After returning fire the group from the cemetary fan off and the guys left from the corn field ran off, we went to the clot. when we got up to the door, our command made us have the Afghani soldiers knock. I am not kidding. We had to knock on the door of the house that was shooting at us.So we knocked and after sitting outside the "owner" of the clot came out and would not allow us to search his house.
- We have to drive at night with our lights on. This has led to our trucks getting hit with an RPG every time. We decided for a few nights not to use the lights, in the beginning. Coincidentally those were the times we did not get shot at. We were then told we have to drive with white lights and then the attacks came back.
- We need to get attacked because that is the only way we can fight these guys. Our missions are pretty much driving and being bait for them
- When we were driving down the street, my truck got hit with an RPG. The gunner engaged them and got one of them. Another one dropped his weapon and the gunner was unable to shoot him. Even though he had positive identification that it was from the same group who shot at us.
- My unit saw Taliban putting an IED in the road. When they went to fight them, they ran into a clot nearby. We were not allowed to go into the house and get them or even fire on the building.
- We are not allowed to call the Taliban the Taliban. I am at the bottom of the chain of command so I don't know who's ridiculous idea it was. This right here all by itself shows the PC politician bullcrap that infested this war.
The plus side of here compared to Iraq is the Afghan Army and Police are corrupted. They want to fight these guys and alot of the units aren't bad, but we can't do much to help except get killed in the process. The locals I met for the most part have never seen Americans and like us and what we are doing. None of these people like the Taliban or AQ but we cannot help them. Not like this. The politicians need to let the military fight or get us out.

[AussieFanKurt]

My girlfriends stepfather says his SAS friends were looking over a village and saw people in the village fucking a goat. Apparently its some culture thing or some shit. Have you heard that? Didn't know bestiality was their thing

[Winehole23]

This war is a joke! They have handcuffed the soldiers on the ground so much that not only can we not do our job but we are unable to fight back.
-In my first month here, we were going to recon an area where the Taliban used to shoot an RPG and kill our Troop Commander. When we got there and dismounted, we were instantly shot at with RPG's, RPK's and small arms (probably AK's) from three sides. One side was on a cemetary one was through a corn field and the other was in a clot (the type of houses ). After returning fire the group from the cemetary fan off and the guys left from the corn field ran off, we went to the clot. when we got up to the door, our command made us have the Afghani soldiers knock. I am not kidding. We had to knock on the door of the house that was shooting at us.So we knocked and after sitting outside the "owner" of the clot came out and would not allow us to search his house.
- We have to drive at night with our lights on. This has led to our trucks getting hit with an RPG every time. We decided for a few nights not to use the lights, in the beginning. Coincidentally those were the times we did not get shot at. We were then told we have to drive with white lights and then the attacks came back.
- We need to get attacked because that is the only way we can fight these guys. Our missions are pretty much driving and being bait for them
- When we were driving down the street, my truck got hit with an RPG. The gunner engaged them and got one of them. Another one dropped his weapon and the gunner was unable to shoot him. Even though he had positive identification that it was from the same group who shot at us.
- My unit saw Taliban putting an IED in the road. When they went to fight them, they ran into a clot nearby. We were not allowed to go into the house and get them or even fire on the building.
- We are not allowed to call the Taliban the Taliban. I am at the bottom of the chain of command so I don't know who's ridiculous idea it was. This right here all by itself shows the PC politician bullcrap that infested this war.
The plus side of here compared to Iraq is the Afghan Army and Police are corrupted. They want to fight these guys and alot of the units aren't bad, but we can't do much to help except get killed in the process. The locals I met for the most part have never seen Americans and like us and what we are doing. None of these people like the Taliban or AQ but we cannot help them. Not like this. The politicians need to let the military fight or get us out.Just out of curiosity, who writes the rules of engagement?

[Winehole23]

That's not a rhetorical. I honestly don't know. Does the President write them?

[Winehole23]

Also, btw: are you in Afghanistan, SnC?

Hope you're well. Haven't seen too much of you here lately.

[MannyIsGod]

That's not a rhetorical. I honestly don't know. Does the President write them?

I'd assume they are written by military personnel with "guidance" from civilians and ultimately the president.

SnC, stay safe.

[MannyIsGod]

I completely agree that these rules sound like you're being dangled out as expendable ways to try to win the hearts and minds of afghans. I don't think you're bait per say but I do think it shows you how expendable you are for the political goals.

Ultimately I completely agree with your last statement. You can't impose rules like this on a military unit and expect them to function well. How many fucking times do we have to learn this lesson?

I never agree with you SnC but if you get a chance to read this I hope you know that I want you to come back safe so I can continue to sling insults your way.

[TeyshaBlue]

I completely agree that these rules sound like you're being dangled out as expendable ways to try to win the hearts and minds of afghans. I don't think you're bait per say but I do think it shows you how expendable you are for the political goals.

Ultimately I completely agree with your last statement. You can't impose rules like this on a military unit and expect them to function well. How many fucking times do we have to learn this lesson?

I never agree with you SnC but if you get a chance to read this I hope you know that I want you to come back safe so I can continue to sling insults your way.

+10.

Stay safe SnC.

[Blake]

i never agree with you snc but if you get a chance to read this i hope you know that i want you to come back safe so i can continue to sling insults your way.

+1

[coyotes_geek]

Be safe SNC.

[boutons_deux]

NATO Campaign Having Little Impact on Taliban, Say US Intelligence Agencies


The CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency reportedly say that insurgents are weathering NATO efforts by hiding in Pakistan.

The Taliban and other insurgents in Afghanistan have been largely unaffected by NATO's campaign, according to assessments by US intelligence services.

http://www.truth-out.org/nato-campaign-having-little-impact-taliban-say-us-intelligence-agencies64596?print

==========

The US military and MIC are no longer under the control of the civilians.

btw, Magic Negro/Pannetta just made official that the long-standing status that the CIA is totally immune to oversight.

[clambake]

you want the locals to assist........then you leave.......then they get their heads pounded for assisting?

[RandomGuy]

This war is a joke! They have handcuffed the soldiers on the ground so much that not only can we not do our job but we are unable to fight back.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

289 page pdf file.

After Vietnam, a young army Colonel was tasked with figuring out how we lost the war. In the mid-80's. This study took years and consulted a LOT of very bright people inside and outside the military, as well as military commanders at all levels in that conflict.

This is the result.

You may be familiar with the author, Colonel Patraeus. Yes, THAT Patraeus.

Take a read and tell me if your situation conforms to the SOP established by this manual.

[RandomGuy]

Essentially, we have accepted the risks and limitations on ground pounders "where the rubber meets the road" to meet wider strategic objectives.

It is one of the paradoxes of counterinsurgency.

The FM can be fairly summarized as follows:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/841519.html


Sometimes, the more you protect your force, the less secure you may be

Sometimes, the more force is used, the less effective it is

The more successful the counterinsurgency is, the less force can be used and the more risk must be accepted

Sometimes doing nothing is the best reaction

Some of the best weapons for counterinsurgents do not shoot

The host nation doing something tolerably is normally better than us doing it well

If a tactic works this week, it might not work next week; if it works in this province, it might not work in the next

Tactical success guarantees nothing

Many important decisions are not made by generals

[Cane]

Is the OP actually serving in the military or was that a copy and paste from someone else? I ask because I thought posts like his goes against the rules found in OPSEC.

Anyway I'm all for the troops GTFO of both Iraq and Afghanistan especially with the vehicles they're using, rules of engagement, and the unpopularity of the war back home but this is just all vague talk. If allied forces did end up seriously withdrawing from these areas it could also be spun pretty negatively by not only Fox News but terrorist organizations, allied countries, and liberated citizens. Lose-lose situation, just depends how much you want to lose...

However :toast To all those serving though including the OP. Hopefully the military commanders and politicians don't fail you guys like they did in Nam. :depressed

[RandomGuy]

- We are not allowed to call the Taliban the Taliban. I am at the bottom of the chain of command so I don't know who's ridiculous idea it was. This right here all by itself shows the PC politician bullcrap that infested this war.

To understand *that* requires a bit of linguistics, and it has little to do with "PC crap".

The word "taliban" simply means "students". It was taken up by the former government because many of the leaders of that movement were former religious school students. It does not have the same meaning, either linguistic or cultural to the Pashtuns and other ethnicities you will be dealing with.

If you start using the word indescriminantly among the population, and they recognize that you are looking to shoot "students", they will wonder why you are intending to shoot their children.



a literal translation of Talib or Taleb is "A Person in need (of something)" in Arabic. It is popularly used for 'student.' The normal plural would be 'tullab' in Arabic but the Pashto plural is to add the 'an (Which in Arabic makes it 'two students'). A large batch of Koranic students out of the Paksitani Madrassas became the best organized and the largest of many factions in Afghanistan after the USSR departed. Since they were mostly students and were quite religious, they called themselves the Students; the Taleb An in Pashto. They later became the de-facto government is Afghanistan.

The world Talib is also used for 'seeker,' context dependent, in Arabic, Urdu and Pashto. It's also a popular name for boys in both India and East Africa.

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=83423&postcount=2

[RandomGuy]

Is the OP actually serving in the military or was that a copy and paste from someone else? I ask because I thought posts like his goes against the rules found in OPSEC.

Anyway I'm all for the troops GTFO of both Iraq and Afghanistan especially with the vehicles they're using, rules of engagement, and the unpopularity of the war back home but this is just all vague talk. If allied forces did end up seriously withdrawing from these areas it could also be spun pretty negatively by not only Fox News but terrorist organizations, allied countries, and liberated citizens. Lose-lose situation, just depends how much you want to lose...

However :toast To all those serving though including the OP. Hopefully the military commanders and politicians don't fail you guys like they did in Nam. :depressed

I am fairly sure SNC is actually on the ground.

I am also fairly sure he has little training or background on Afghanistan, its history, culture, or languages, other than whatever crash courses has been given immediately before deployment, a common trait among just about every US servicemember who has ever served overseas in any of our wars.

[boutons_deux]

One famous patriot soldier who figured out what was going on and went anti-war got murdered, Tillman.

[ElNono]

SnC, make sure you GTFO in one piece and come back home safe.

[Winehole23]

I am also fairly sure he has little training or background on Afghanistan, its history, culture, or languages, other than whatever crash courses has been given immediately before deployment, a common trait among just about every US servicemember who has ever served overseas in any of our wars.Um, I thought SnC was over there before.

Was he in Iraq?





(Please advise.)

[panic giraffe]

wow. they need to allow a warzone to be a warzone, otherwise it's just setting us up for failure.

also, i know we're broke and all, but i wonder how fast shit would turn around if they had jobs besides opium and weren't so dirt poor and desperate. if we created a manufacturing base it would probably work wonders. hell can we at least give them the magic of call centers or something?

i know i don't agree with the majority of your ideals, but still, come home safe.

[Stringer_Bell]

Thanks for the insight SnC, we appreciate it and the job you're doing for all of us back home.

[boutons_deux]

No matter how dangerous and wimpy the rules of engagement are, the US empire ain't NEVER gonna win th Afghanis' and Pakis' hearts and minds.

All the generals are doing now is trying to save their careers from having "lost" in Iraq and Afghanistan, with political help (aka $$) from the war-enriched MIC.

Too bad people (suckers?) still sign up for the US imperial forces fighting wars that having nothing to do with American safety, only American corps' profits and the Generals ribbons, career padding, and war zone premiums. I appreciate that young people can't find jobs in the Repug/Banksters' Great Depression, which conveniently pushes poor kids into the wars while the rich kids stay home.

The locals will always outwait and outlast the invaders. The best thing the US military has going for it now is that amnesiac, fat-assed Americans give no priority to Iraq and Afghanistan, nor to the maimed and dead US military. Permanent war is accepted helplessly as just "what America does": shifting taxpayers funds to the MIC while being force to accept war deficits and interest payments for decades.

[Parker2112]

We can't go balls out, because the whole point is setting up shop on those rare-earth minerals. China aint gonna sell theirs, so if we want to stay in the game we need to keep a sustainable presence there. And if we piss the natives off our corps will never be able to get their claws on the goods.

Don't mind all that bullshit about terrorism. Its all about $$$.

SnC, stay safe.

[Parker2112]

I am fairly sure SNC is actually on the ground.

I am also fairly sure he has little training or background on Afghanistan, its history, culture, or languages, other than whatever crash courses has been given immediately before deployment, a common trait among just about every US servicemember who has ever served overseas in any of our wars.

Dude, you are talking down to a US serviceman now? To follow up on your post-mortem dis on Whott?

Fuggin amazing. You are douche in every sense of the word. What a fucking vagina.

[ChumpDumper]

It does sound like this is out of Petraeus' book.

[TeyshaBlue]

Dude, you are talking down to a US serviceman now? To follow up on your post-mortem dis on Whott?

Fuggin amazing. You are douche in every sense of the word. What a fucking vagina.

Lrn2contextualize. He wasn't talking down to anybody. Fuck!:bang

[Parker2112]

Lrn2contextualize. He wasn't talking down to anybody. Fuck!:bang

This dude is clearly trying to insinuate he is more informed on Afghan culture and people than almost every soldier on the scene, including SnC. And to be blunt, thats his attitude on damn near everything. If He had any bit of intelligence, I might let him slide. But he doesnt. Most of his analyses are complete disasters, he usually misses the mark on any given topic, and when he runs out of points he usually goes for a personal attack. Fuck him, he's a total dick...there is absolutely nothing good to say about a guy that will trash a dead man and talk down about soldiers in general.

[Winehole23]

Nice meltdown, Parker. Plenty more where that came from, I bet.

[Parker2112]

Nice meltdown, Parker. Plenty more where that came from, I bet.

No meltdown here...RG gets the treatment he deserves.

That slimy post was simply RG's way of boasting that he is smarter than 90%+ percent of the servicemen fighting in the armed forces. All while they engage the people first-hand, and he sits behind a computer monitor with a thumb up his ass.

The worst part: you know that the guy's posts are chocked full of misleading, conceited-for-no-appearant-reason, self-aggrandizing, error-filled analytical failures... and yet you allow his bullshit to ride unchecked.

When you see me throw insults toward RG its not about anger. Its about disclosure. Light of day for this rank twat.

And WH, You chase me around this forum like a school girl following the bad boy around campus after he took her virginity at a party. Get off my dick already.

[Winehole23]

You've favored us with another nice tantrum.






So magnanimous, so soon after the first one. :tu

[Parker2112]

What fucking tantrum? :P

[Winehole23]

(Modest, too.)

[Oh, Gee!!]

if you're for real snc, God bless you and bring you home safely: you guys are the shit.

[Heath Ledger]

I don't understand why we (Americans) think that we can get it done over there.
The Russians couldn't do it and basicly left with their tail between their legs. And the Russians weren't exactly pansies. Thank god its becoming clear that we need to get the fuck out of there. The longer we stay the more we just prolong the inevitable. I hope you come back safe dude. I have a few friends and a brother in law over there and I know it's no picnic.

[Parker2112]

I don't understand why we (Americans) think that we can get it done over there.
The Russians couldn't do it and basicly left with their tail between their legs. And the Russians weren't exactly pansies. Thank god its becoming clear that we need to get the fuck out of there. The longer we stay the more we just prolong the inevitable. I hope you come back safe dude. I have a few friends and a brother in law over there and I know it's no picnic.

We will stay long enough to get the booty.

[RandomGuy]

Um, I thought SnC was over there before.

Was he in Iraq?





(Please advise.)

Unknown.

Unfortunately knowledge of the ins and out of Iraq would provide little insight into Afghanistan, were it so.

[RandomGuy]

This dude is clearly trying to insinuate he is more informed on Afghan culture and people than almost every soldier on the scene, including SnC. And to be blunt, thats his attitude on damn near everything. If He had any bit of intelligence, I might let him slide. But he doesnt. Most of his analyses are complete disasters, he usually misses the mark on any given topic, and when he runs out of points he usually goes for a personal attack. Fuck him, he's a total dick...there is absolutely nothing good to say about a guy that will trash a dead man and talk down about soldiers in general.

The average US military recruit could no more name the major ethnicities, languages, or religious denominations of Afghanistan than you could before we went into Afghanistan without using google, dipshit. Americans in general really really suck at that.

Soldiers on the ground get VERY myopic when it comes to the countries they serve in, simply because their field of vision is pretty narrow. They are topical experts on their limited areas of operations, but you have to take a LOT of accounts and put them together before you get a coherent picture.

The fact that the OP is bitching about his rules of engagement, and the manner in which he did it very clearly demonstrates that he was not familiar with the specifics of WHY.

As for "trashing a dead man": go fuck yourself, Floride-boy. I did no such thing.

If you want to be butt-hurt about getting spanked over your lame conspiracy theories, fine, but don't make shit up.

[RandomGuy]

Dude, you are talking down to a US serviceman now? To follow up on your post-mortem dis on Whott?

Fuggin amazing. You are douche in every sense of the word. What a fucking vagina.

I was an intelligence analyst for the US army during the first Gulf War, and have been studying off and on for the State Department's Foreign Service Officer Test, as I have been mulling applying.

At the time of my service from 89-93 I spent a good deal of time studying Iraq as part of my job, and subsequently kept fairly current, especially in the run up to the 2003 invasion.

As soon as the second plane hit WTC2, I knew we were going to invade Afghanistan and why. I have also spent a good deal of time reading up on both the Soviet invasion, and current events. I directly remember watching news accounts of the invasion in my teens, and it was interesting to catch up.

Do I have some formal education in the history of the area? No.

Do I know a fuck of a lot more about yet another topic than you do? Yes.

Quit being so butthurt about your mediocrity. It gets old.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol @ atomic pqn by RG.

You might want to lie down for a bit after that, Parker.:lol

[Winehole23]

Unknown.

Unfortunately knowledge of the ins and out of Iraq would provide little insight into Afghanistan, were it so.My own recollection is that SnC did a previous tour in Afghanistan. I could easily be wrong about that.

[Winehole23]

lol @ atomic pqn by RG.

For better and for worse, Parker is impervious to pqns.

[Winehole23]

This forum, therefore, is just another comfy sofa to stifle his farts in.






iWachale! Here comes a big one!

[Winehole23]

(Too late. SBD.)

[Parker2112]

I was an intelligence analyst for the US army during the first Gulf War, and have been studying off and on for the State Department's Foreign Service Officer Test, as I have been mulling applying.
Honestly I usually reserve the utmost respect for those who serve. But I think your lack of respect for damn near anybody who isnt RG warrants shit. So, thanks for your service, asshole.



At the time of my service from 89-93 I spent a good deal of time studying Iraq as part of my job, and subsequently kept fairly current, especially in the run up to the 2003 invasion.
Did you ever step foot in Iraq? Because the guys your talking about are in harms way. Were you ever in harms way? Because the way you carry yourself here, you sound like a backstabbing, sniveling little bitch who would have spent most of their time doing paperwork while others faced life and death. Im just saying.


As soon as the second plane hit WTC2, I knew we were going to invade Afghanistan and why. I have also spent a good deal of time reading up on both the Soviet invasion, and current events. I directly remember watching news accounts of the invasion in my teens, and it was interesting to catch up.

Do I have some formal education in the history of the area? No.

Do I know a fuck of a lot more about yet another topic than you do? Yes.

Quit being so butthurt about your mediocrity. It gets old.

I think you fucking suck. Nothing butthurt about it.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

[Winehole23]

Nice rant, crankypants. You're on a roll.

[Parker2112]

As for "trashing a dead man": go fuck yourself, Floride-boy. I did no such thing.

Horseshit. You got shit in that thread from others over the same thing. I didnt say anything because you got what you had coming. You show your true colors every time you open your mouth, without fail. Rank Vagina 24-7.


If you want to be butt-hurt about getting spanked over your lame conspiracy theories, fine, but don't make shit up

Spanked? You couldnt get past saying the words "conspiracy theory" and "fluoride-boy" to discuss anything with intelligence. Which is all the same, because you had nothing to contribute anyway.

Again fuck you.

[Winehole23]

(Credit where credit's due. "Rank vagina 24-7" debuted prominently ^^^.)

[TeyshaBlue]

Score: Parker 1
Lucidity 0

[Parker2112]

(Rank vagina 24-7 debuted prominently ^^^.)

No...I used that to describe RG before. Debut means to appear on the scene for the first time. Is english your first language?

[Winehole23]

Debut means to appear on the scene for the first time. Forgive me profe, for missing one of your posts. Inexcusable.

Learned brother: I have no doubt in my mind you were responsible for the very first mention as well. I rue that I wasn't there to share in your internet glory.

[Parker2112]

sure thing, WH. No skin off my ass.

[Winehole23]

:lol

[Parker2112]

glad the ass-for-nose substitution got your funny bone. I thought it might.

[RandomGuy]

you sound like a backstabbing, sniveling little bitch who would have spent most of their time doing paperwork while others faced life and death. Im just saying.


Project much?

1) When I went into the military, I fully understood that doing so entailed a risk of death, and was willing to accept that risk, fully conscious of that possibility.

2) Further, I took the job in intel, fully cognizant of the particular risks posed in event of my capture. Generally we tried not to think about it.

3) I carried a "tactical" designation, meaning I was specially trained for being attached to forward units in the normal line of battle. I spent most of my time in a corps-level asset of the type that is "attached" to forward brigades that the corps commander, in his infinte wisdom, decides needs extra "oomph", much like corps level artillery or air support.

4) Between the training, nearly a full year, and the security clearance, they generally frown on putting a rifle in my hands and having me in on the attack. I cost too much, and it would be a waste of my abilities.

5) In the interest of full disclosure, I was never deployed to Iraq, they had sufficient tactical intelligence resources there. Through the magic of satellite communications, I did participate in the processing of live intel, and that ability, rather new at the time, was part of the reason we were not deployed. I did make it known to my commanders that I would have liked to, though.

I tested well, and I could have either been in intel, or a nuclear technician for the navy. Intel seemed more interesting.

Have you ever been in the military?

[johnsmith]

Project much?

1) When I went into the military, I fully understood that doing so entailed a risk of death, and was willing to accept that risk, fully conscious of that possibility.

2) Further, I took the job in intel, fully cognizant of the particular risks posed in event of my capture. Generally we tried not to think about it.

3) I carried a "tactical" designation, meaning I was specially trained for being attached to forward units in the normal line of battle. I spent most of my time in a corps-level asset of the type that is "attached" to forward brigades that the corps commander, in his infinte wisdom, decides needs extra "oomph", much like corps level artillery or air support.

4) Between the training, nearly a full year, and the security clearance, they generally frown on putting a rifle in my hands and having me in on the attack. I cost too much, and it would be a waste of my abilities.

5) In the interest of full disclosure, I was never deployed to Iraq, they had sufficient tactical intelligence resources there. Through the magic of satellite communications, I did participate in the processing of live intel, and that ability, rather new at the time, was part of the reason we were not deployed. I did make it known to my commanders that I would have liked to, though.

I tested well, and I could have either been in intel, or a nuclear technician for the navy. Intel seemed more interesting.

Have you ever been in the military?

You do know that this is the internet right? Your name isn't really 'RandomGuy' either. So you don't really have to stick up for yourself and disclose all this personal information about yourself because in the grand scheme of things no one cares and it doesn't really matter.


Learn to brush off the insults and don't give out a whole lot of personal stuff, then you won't feel the need to have to type out a laundry list of qualifications to another random human being that you'll never meet in real life and therefore will never affect you one way or another.

Unless you want to......it is pretty funny for others.

[TeyshaBlue]

You do know that this is the internet right? Your name isn't really 'RandomGuy' either. So you don't really have to stick up for yourself and disclose all this personal information about yourself because in the grand scheme of things no one cares and it doesn't really matter.


Learn to brush off the insults and don't give out a whole lot of personal stuff, then you won't feel the need to have to type out a laundry list of qualifications to another random human being that you'll never meet in real life and therefore will never affect you one way or another.

Unless you want to......it is pretty funny for others.

I disagree.
Credibility is credibility. If someone is going to attempt to successfully debate a point, credibility is essential. Also, when an attack gets personal, expect a personal response, IMHO.

[Parker2112]

4) Between the training, nearly a full year, and the security clearance, they generally frown on putting a rifle in my hands and having me in on the attack. I cost too much, and it would be a waste of my abilities.

5) In the interest of full disclosure, I was never deployed to Iraq, they had sufficient tactical intelligence resources there. Through the magic of satellite communications, I did participate in the processing of live intel, and that ability, rather new at the time, was part of the reason we were not deployed. I did make it known to my commanders that I would have liked to, though.

I tested well, and I could have either been in intel, or a nuclear technician for the navy. Intel seemed more interesting.

Have you ever been in the military?

Honestly, I was right on all counts. Call it "second sight."

And though I wasnt in the military, its funny that I have more respect for the armed men and women fighting in the field than you. If you didhave respect, you wouldnt be categorizing them all as dumb grunts in the field who have no knowledge of history or culture....even if you believed that. Are you truly a Self aggrandized desk jockey who is above the riff raff? or just a natural born dick? I think both likely apply here.

[RandomGuy]

you sound like a backstabbing, sniveling little bitch who would have spent most of their time doing paperwork while others faced life and death.



Have you ever been in the military?


I wasnt in the military

:rollin

[johnsmith]

I disagree.
Credibility is credibility. If someone is going to attempt to successfully debate a point, credibility is essential. Also, when an attack gets personal, expect a personal response, IMHO.

I suppose, if internet cred is important to you, then yes, you are right.

[RandomGuy]

Honestly, I was right on all counts. Call it "second sight."

And though I wasnt in the military, its funny that I have more respect for the armed men and women fighting in the field than you. If you didhave respect, you wouldnt be categorizing them all as dumb grunts in the field who have no knowledge of history or culture....even if you believed that. Are you truly a Self aggrandized desk jockey who is above the riff raff? or just a natural born dick? I think both likely apply here.

I have a huge amount of respect for grunts in the field. Some of the smartest people in the army end up in the 11B MOS, for various reasons.

I also know the strengths and weaknesses of their viewpoints. It is entirely possible to be out there risking your life, and have incorrectly assessed the overall strategic situation or goals.

It happens all the time, and will as long as armies exist.

The strengths of the view point is that you get a very close to the source look at their AO.

The weakness is that is the limit of what you get, and the collective amassing of information sometimes leads one to form different conclusions than one might get "in the trenches".

The inverse is true for battlefield commanders, who have to rely on summaries.

I also know, from first hand experience in talking to a lot of people who did go over there, just how little area knowledge they had going in.

Is it your contention that the average basic training recruit in the US military knows the difference between Shia and Sunni? Uzbek and Pashtun? Can name the four principle ethnic groups in Iraq? Afghanistan?

You have criticized me for saying they can't. That is simply an acknowledgement of the fact that most Americans, you included, don't either.

It is a cold, hard fact.

[RandomGuy]

I disagree.
Credibility is credibility. If someone is going to attempt to successfully debate a point, credibility is essential. Also, when an attack gets personal, expect a personal response, IMHO.

Pretty much.

I didn't go the personal ad hominem route until the circumstances were made a point.

The fact that Mr. Parker's own anger and butthurtness leads him to writing hyperbolic checks that his ass can't cash is on him.

[TeyshaBlue]

I suppose, if internet cred is important to you, then yes, you are right.

In the context of an internet debate, then yes.

[Ashy Larry]

Man, I thank my father every day for pulling me out of that Marines office just as I was about to sign that paper. He sat me down and told me people will profit from you going over there and getting shot up. Then he told me you can enlist when George W. Bush have his daughters fighting over there. Guess I'm not going.

Thanks Pops

[Parker2112]

Man, I thank my father every day for pulling me out of that Marines office just as I was about to sign that paper. He sat me down and told me people will profit from you going over there and getting shot up. Then he told me you can enlist when George W. Bush have his daughters fighting over there. Guess I'm not going.

Thanks Pops

A-Men. Your dad is a wise man. War is about profit. Always has been about pillage and plunder.

[Winehole23]

glad the ass-for-nose substitution got your funny bone. I thought it might.It was more your obliviousness to fake praise that got me, but never mind: you've been busy making new friends.

[Ashy Larry]

I have no problem fighting. Hell, I grew up in South Central Los Angeles. The Crips and Bloods gotta 40 year war going on there; so I've seen some blood splattered. I just don't believe that "we must fight the terrorist over there" propaganda. The minute they start firing missiles from Afghanistan that land on the east coast or once I see them in a bunch of boats invading our shores like Germany did Poland, I'll strap on the fatigues and go to battle.

Hell, we are so hellbent on protecting our borders and building "incomplete" fences, practically every bombing or terrorist act that has happened in the contiguous 48 has been made by a person who (1) entered through our airports or (2) was born here. LOL

[RandomGuy]

The minute they start firing missiles from Afghanistan that land on the east coast

What if the allow or actively promote the training of people who come here to kill people?

The reason we went into Afghanistan was that the AQ types had training camps there, and the government, such as it was, was either looking the other way, or actively supporting them.

If we were to leave, it is quite possible the same people will simply take back up where they left off.

How do we prevent that from happening?

[Blake]

I have no problem fighting. Hell, I grew up in South Central Los Angeles. The Crips and Bloods gotta 40 year war going on there; so I've seen some blood splattered.

Which ones did you fight against, the Crips or the Bloods?

[clambake]

Which ones did you fight against, the Crips or the Bloods?

white fence

[Ashy Larry]

Which ones did you fight against, the Crips or the Bloods?


I lived in a Crip hood and pops kept me and my brothers from joining. If he wasn't there, we'd definitely be Crips. Was shot at a few times just standing outside and saw many people get laid down by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Wasn't pretty. Like Beirut especially in the late 70s and early 80s.

[Ashy Larry]

What if the allow or actively promote the training of people who come here to kill people?

The reason we went into Afghanistan was that the AQ types had training camps there, and the government, such as it was, was either looking the other way, or actively supporting them.

If we were to leave, it is quite possible the same people will simply take back up where they left off.

How do we prevent that from happening?


That's the thing. Who do you really believe. We were also told by British and American intelligence that WMDs were in Iraq. I thought we stood on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. I have no problem with the claim; just prove it.

As far as leaving, we had no problem doing it in Vietnam. Like old Ron Paul said, we marched into Afghanistan, we can march right now. We said, "we'll never leave you, we have your back until the end of time." And just skated. There's really nothing to gain here.

[RandomGuy]

That's the thing. Who do you really believe. We were also told by British and American intelligence that WMDs were in Iraq. I thought we stood on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. I have no problem with the claim; just prove it.

As far as leaving, we had no problem doing it in Vietnam. Like old Ron Paul said, we marched into Afghanistan, we can march right now. We said, "we'll never leave you, we have your back until the end of time." And just skated. There's really nothing to gain here.

Our intel on the training camps was MUCH better than our intel on Saddams WMD's.

AQ et al actually put out many videos about them in order to attract new recruits. You have probably seen some of them as background footage to news stories.

AQ didn't have an effective state security apparatus to maintain opsec. They did have some degree of fealty from fellow muslims but that fealty kinda melts at the edges when one shoves two or three month's wages in front of a subsistance farmer.

[RandomGuy]

As far as leaving, we had no problem doing it in Vietnam. Like old Ron Paul said, we marched into Afghanistan, we can march right now. We said, "we'll never leave you, we have your back until the end of time." And just skated. There's really nothing to gain here.

People that study foreign policy or management for a living have a term called "second order consequences". These things are indirect, often unintended results of direct actions.

Direct action: Funding mujahadeen to kill Soviet troops in Afghanistan.

Second order consequence: After Soviet pullout, the mujahadeen, the only people with military training and weapons, who also happen to be crude theocrats, form the Taliban government of Afghanistan. This government is openly sympathetic to AQ and its anti-western aims.

I don't want to be there anymore than you do.

I do feel it is necessary however. Mr. Paul is right. We can leave at any time.

But at what cost?

[Ashy Larry]

People that study foreign policy or management for a living have a term called "second order consequences". These things are indirect, often unintended results of direct actions.

Direct action: Funding mujahadeen to kill Soviet troops in Afghanistan.

Second order consequence: After Soviet pullout, the mujahadeen, the only people with military training and weapons, who also happen to be crude theocrats, form the Taliban government of Afghanistan. This government is openly sympathetic to AQ and its anti-western aims.

I don't want to be there anymore than you do.

I do feel it is necessary however. Mr. Paul is right. We can leave at any time.

But at what cost?

That's the slippery slope. It's obvious we're in a screwed up situation with this war. Like John Wooden usta say all the time "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail." We went into this with "shoot first, ask questions later" tactics and now we have no exit plan whatsoever. The only way to get out of this situation is to kill everyone in the entire region because there will always be recruits.

The question is what are we trying to accomplish here?

[spursncowboys]

Just out of curiosity, who writes the rules of engagement?
The ROE I have the most problem with comes from ISAF.

[spursncowboys]

WH: Yeah Im in Afghanistan. Near Jalalabad. My last deployment was in Iraq, in 06-07 in the "Triangle of Death" south of Baghdad.
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I guess I have been gone long enough for you all to forget when I would piss you off. Awesome.
Randomguy: Yeah I read a Afghan history book that was really good and took a 3 wk Dari language class. Other than that, not much Afghan culture. My unit had previously deployed to here so they helped alot. I couldn't believe how different it is here. Afghans are alot more traditional. Woman completely cover their body and when we come by or drive by they squat down and turn their back to us. I was also apart of the surge in Iraq and before making the populace embrace us , we secured it. That meant door to door clearing buildings. Then we brought in small cobs to keep the guys from coming back.

[spursncowboys]

The average US military recruit could no more name the major ethnicities, languages, or religious denominations of Afghanistan than you could before we went into Afghanistan without using google, dipshit. Americans in general really really suck at that.

Soldiers on the ground get VERY myopic when it comes to the countries they serve in, simply because their field of vision is pretty narrow. They are topical experts on their limited areas of operations, but you have to take a LOT of accounts and put them together before you get a coherent picture.

The fact that the OP is bitching about his rules of engagement, and the manner in which he did it very clearly demonstrates that he was not familiar with the specifics of WHY.


That is true, that I, at my level, cannot see the big picture. I stated that in the original op though. My point was my area. It doesn't take a one star general to tell you that the ROE are not working unless the plan is to stay for 30 years with the stalemate we are in.
I think you are assuming alot of my knowledge base though.

[spursncowboys]

One great thing about my are are the locals for the most part are as helpful as they can be. Not too long ago, we got hit with 4 rpgs and we went after the guys. While going through the village, his hiding spots were being poointed out by the people living their. Another huge difference is the army and police are not corrupt. they love our help. We have been here in Afghanistan for 10 years and in my area we are going to villages who have never seen americans and helpful without any financial incentive.

[spursncowboys]

I have a huge amount of respect for grunts in the field. Some of the smartest people in the army end up in the 11B MOS, for various reasons.

I also know the strengths and weaknesses of their viewpoints. It is entirely possible to be out there risking your life, and have incorrectly assessed the overall strategic situation or goals.

It happens all the time, and will as long as armies exist.

The strengths of the view point is that you get a very close to the source look at their AO.

The weakness is that is the limit of what you get, and the collective amassing of information sometimes leads one to form different conclusions than one might get "in the trenches".

The inverse is true for battlefield commanders, who have to rely on summaries.

I also know, from first hand experience in talking to a lot of people who did go over there, just how little area knowledge they had going in.

Is it your contention that the average basic training recruit in the US military knows the difference between Shia and Sunni? Uzbek and Pashtun? Can name the four principle ethnic groups in Iraq? Afghanistan?

You have criticized me for saying they can't. That is simply an acknowledgement of the fact that most Americans, you included, don't either.

It is a cold, hard fact. Infantry are ok but not as good as Cav.
of course the joes don't know anything. they dont need to. But tm leaders and section sgts and up have to be knowledgable in the customs, language, and daily routines of their AO.

[RandomGuy]

That is true, that I, at my level, cannot see the big picture. I stated that in the original op though. My point was my area. It doesn't take a one star general to tell you that the ROE are not working unless the plan is to stay for 30 years with the stalemate we are in.
I think you are assuming alot of my knowledge base though.

I am indeed. You could have a great deal of knowledge outside the normal briefings for all I know, and will definitely get a good deal of first hand education as time goes by.

The ROE is simply a "rubber meets the road" attempt to satisfy the requirements of the counter insurgency doctrine.

How would you change them specifically, and why?

It is always good to get a first-hand view on this.

[RandomGuy]

That's the slippery slope. It's obvious we're in a screwed up situation with this war. Like John Wooden usta say all the time "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail." We went into this with "shoot first, ask questions later" tactics and now we have no exit plan whatsoever. The only way to get out of this situation is to kill everyone in the entire region because there will always be recruits.

The question is what are we trying to accomplish here?

I disagree that we have to kill "everyone in the entire region", but do agree that we went in with a "shoot first, ask questions later" mindset.

Sadly it took the Bush administration YEARS and THOUSANDS of our servicemembers dying before they pulled their heads ouf of their asses.

The fucktarded invasion of Iraq drained the resourses that SHOULD have been spent in Afghanistan. But that is a "shoulda" that is irrelevant now.

We will be there until we can essentially build up a fair national government in Afghanistan. That requires MUCH more time and efffort than Iraq, since Afghanistan has no oil, and even less human capital and/or physical infrastructure.