Observation: Spurs' point guard pick and roll defense

[MaNu4Tres]

The Spurs' PG pick and roll defense has to get better. That is the Spurs biggest weakness defensively (IMO). It was last year and evidently still is so far this year. Paul went wherever he wanted in pick and roll situations, and usually ended up in uncontested lay-ups at the rim (especially when Blair was in the game-- When Tim or Dice's man was being used to set screens).

Part of this is due to the undersized front-court (interior help side defense when penetrator turns the corner on PG and hedger/helper) and the other has to do with Tim's declining mobility, which makes it harder for him to hedge more efficiently and effectively when his man is the guy setting screens (Splitter will help this area of weakness whenever his man is setting screens because of his better mobililty--And he will help whenever he is playing helpside in P&R's because he is a better interior defensive threat than McDyess/Blair/Bonner.) * IMO- Part of Duncan not being an effective helper/hedger on the pick and roll when his man is setting the screens is partially because of a slight defensive fundamental mishap (maybe due to him trying to conserve energy during the course of the game)--He is usually virtually standing straight up in hedge/helper scenarios, which doesn't give him the optimal mobility-- He needs to bend those knees to give him the best opportunity to defend more efficiently in those situations.


So far Darren Collins and Chris Paul have torn the Spurs apart in the pick and roll. That has to improve significantly if Spurs want to be one of the best defensive teams in the league. It starts with the point guard fighting and recovering through screens better and ends with the bigs hedging and helping from the weakside more efficiently.

To help this area, the Spurs could benefit by showing the strong hedge more (brief double team of the point guard; like the Spurs did against the Hornets and Paul in the playoffs in 2008) when they face great pick and roll point guards. This would give the point guard more time to recover when fighting over/under screens-- which essentially is beneficial for the defense(most notably point guard )to keep the offense (PG) in front of them and away from the vulnerable painted area.

All in all, the pick and roll defense has to improve first and foremost if Spurs have any hope to play past the middle of May. In order to improve it, it will take a collective effort.

[ElNono]

The help defense rotations are nonexistent in those situations right now. I still remember Manu calling out Blair for not rotating last night. That said, Blair isn't a shot blocker either, so it's doubtful he can be effective contesting at the rim (much like Bonner). Tony also did a poor job of staying in front of his man (Hill did much better in the second half).
We're just a work in progress right now, and I agree we need a lot work in that department. Right now, Dice is better suited than Blair to help there (he had a nice block last night), and hopefully Tiago can lend a hand too.

[Spurs Brazil]

Agree with MaNu4Tres and ElNono

Nash and Dragic killed us in last playoffs with those kind of plays and in yesterday 3rd quarter CP3 went on a layup drill.

I think Tiago can help us in that area. I'm very disappointed at Blair help D. I know he's not a shot blocker but after a whole season in the system he should know were to rotate but in the 2 games he had no clue. He was awful on the rotations.

[silverblk mystix]

Bowen was the last spur to adequately defend on the pick and roll because he wouldn't let the PG go where he wanted to.

The only other one that does this in the NBA is D. Fisher-but he only does this in the playoffs-IMO.

Spurs need to find someone who has the balls and skill to pull this off without fouling out.

[SenorSpur]

Agree with MaNu4Tres, ElNono and Spurs Brazil.

The Spurs were literally exposed during the Suns playoff series. Seeing it up close was like watching a car wreck. The Spurs were literally powerless in their inability to shutoff penetration by Nash and Dragic last year. And they were slow to close out on shooters. All credit to Gentry and the Suns for expsoing them.

Fast forward a few months, and we're seeing a repeat of the same issue. Perhaps Splitter will provide some help in that area, however, there are no drastic or quick fixes that will allow the Spurs to shore up this issue completely or quickly.

There is defintely cause for concern. The Spurs simply are not a very good defensive team and they are trending downhill. I see this as a season-long problem.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

With the way the roster is currently constructed this team is going to have to make a trade or two to get some help on D. Like you guys are saying, Tiago should help with the interior D, and he's supposed to be a great P n' R defender, but our perimeter D still needs a lot of work.

When the schedule was announced I was looking forward to the Suns game, but now I think the Spurs better try not to get blown out. I will say that I like that they're attacking the rim much more (many 3's came in the 4th out of desperation). It's still early, but the sooner this team can get a decent lockdown perimeter defender, the better. You could have Ben Wallace in his prime guarding the interior but if you're perimeter D is non existent, he'd just get worn out even faster.

Great thread :tu

[Tito_Trinidad]

I miss u Bruce!!!

[HarlemHeat37]

The Spurs were actually one of the best teams at defending the p&r last year from a scoring perspective..they were 7th at defending the ball handler on the p&r, and 5th at defending the roll man..

However, I agree that they do allow too many open looks and relatively easy shots for the other team from a playmaking perspective, and I definitely agree about the perimeter D..the perimeter D is much more of a concern for me than the interior D is..

The Spurs' defense also suffers immensely when Blair is on the floor, just like last year..they were a few points worse with him on the floor last year, and it doesn't look like his D has improved..

The Spurs' 1 on 1 perimeter defense was 27th in the NBA last year, which is what made me concerned coming into the season..opponents penetrate against the Spurs' very easily, and the perimeter defenders are just poor overall, lacking ability to contest..

Other than the 1 on 1 D, their other weakness is defending screens, which is partly due to Duncan's lack of mobility when coming outside of the paint, and due to the fact that the perimeter defenders are poor at recognizing the other's teams offense..they're also too slow to recover..

George Hill was ranked as one of the worst 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA last year, opponents shot 52% against him..he was also ranked as one of the worst rotation defenders in the NBA as well..his p&r D was surprisingly his only asset last year..

Jefferson was very poor at defending the p&r last year, he was below average in the other facets..Manu was horrible at rotating last year, surprisingly, he was a good p&r defenders and decent at everything else..Parker was a mediocre p&r defender and decent at everything else..

Bogans was actually a really good p&r defender, but a horrible 1 on 1 defender and rotation defender..Malik Hairston was ranked as the only great 1 on 1 defender on the team last year..

Spurs' perimeter D is terrible, and that was my biggest concern coming into the season..they will have to hope that Splitter can make up for it, which is something I wouldn't count on..

[ChuckD]

You can forget the pick and roll defense getting any better unless Splitter turns out to be a great defender. Our wings are playing soft because we have no one who can defend the paint.

The FO failed this off season to sign Shaq or Damp both who could have helped us big time. We used that money for Neal, who I like but face it the last thing we needed was another undersized 2.

We have one of the smallest starting 5 this season and I cannot remember a team starting a 6-7 guy at center in 20 years.

My high school Center was 6-9 and our PF was 6-8 and we had a bench guy at 6-11. How is it the spurs cant find a Center who can at least get in the way of guys driving the lane.

crofl @ Shaq/Damp being the answer to our P'n'R defense.

And, to answer your final question, finding 6-8, 6-9, and 6-11 guys who can ball in HS is a lot easier than finding the same sized guys who can ball in the NBA.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs were actually one of the best teams at defending the p&r last year from a scoring perspective..they were 7th at defending the ball handler on the p&r, and 5th at defending the roll man..

However, I agree that they do allow too many open looks and relatively easy shots for the other team from a playmaking perspective, and I definitely agree about the perimeter D..the perimeter D is much more of a concern for me than the interior D is..

The Spurs' defense also suffers immensely when Blair is on the floor, just like last year..they were a few points worse with him on the floor last year, and it doesn't look like his D has improved..

The Spurs' 1 on 1 perimeter defense was 27th in the NBA last year, which is what made me concerned coming into the season..opponents penetrate against the Spurs' very easily, and the perimeter defenders are just poor overall, lacking ability to contest..

Other than the 1 on 1 D, their other weakness is defending screens, which is partly due to Duncan's lack of mobility when coming outside of the paint, and due to the fact that the perimeter defenders are poor at recognizing the other's teams offense..they're also too slow to recover..

George Hill was ranked as one of the worst 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA last year, opponents shot 52% against him..he was also ranked as one of the worst rotation defenders in the NBA as well..his p&r D was surprisingly his only asset last year..
Jefferson was very poor at defending the p&r last year, he was below average in the other facets..Manu was horrible at rotating last year, surprisingly, he was a good p&r defenders and decent at everything else..Parker was a mediocre p&r defender and decent at everything else..

Bogans was actually a really good p&r defender, but a horrible 1 on 1 defender and rotation defender..Malik Hairston was ranked as the only great 1 on 1 defender on the team last year..

Spurs' perimeter D is terrible, and that was my biggest concern coming into the season..they will have to hope that Splitter can make up for it, which is something I wouldn't count on..


It's weird, but as Hill gets "better" his defense seems to get worse. Wasn't his defense overall way better in his first year? It seems like he gets confused everytime someone sets a pick and all of a sudden gets cement in his shoes.

[itzsoweezee]

Let's be truthful here, Duncan has been the biggest disappointment on defense this year. It became clear in the Suns series and continued into this year, he's just not a defensive presence anymore. Of course everyone will blame Blair because he's an easy target, but Blair is not the 7-footer.

Parker's pathetic defense hasn't helped things any either. Hill was a huge improvement on defense when he came into the game in the second half. Of course, parker may be gambling more because of the deficiencies in the paint.

[Spurs Brazil]

Let's see what we'll do tomorrow against the Clippers. They are the worst shooting team so far this season. I'm watching their game against Dallas and they are really bad. They can't make a outside shot

And Dallas is playing very good D, nice rotations and Haywood and Chandler are protecting the paint very well.

[DPG21920]

Good thread...

I think, and it may be an over-simplification, that the Spurs need to use aggression to make up for the lack of ability.

Like you said, they could show a hard hedge and really get up into the guys on the perimeter.

Like with West last evening. They should have gone into him and forced him to put the ball on the floor. Do anything you can to prevent the easy jump shot.

[HarlemHeat37]

They started running at West more in the 3rd and 4th IIRC..they forced him into running shots and tough layups, as opposed to letting him continue to shoot set jump shots, which is his specialty..his only points in the 2nd half came off of 2 set jump shots, while the rest of his misses were all contested layups or tough shots..

You would think that they would already know this, since he kills the Spurs every time they play..

[DPG21920]

Exactly. That is my point. They play stupid and passive defense. You can get away with that if you have superb defenders and great athletes. The Spurs don't.

They need to play and aggressive, physical brand of ball. Let the interior do the reaction and clean up, while the perimeter gets up into them and does the dirty work.

[Leonard Curse]

I assume you know little of basket ball so I will help you. To keep it on your level, we cannot defend the paint!!!!!!!!!! Pick and roll all you want, if you have large, long men inside that clog the lane pick and rolls no not all that effective.

We cannot defend the paint so, our wings sag off allowing uncontested jumpers often in hopes of preventing uncontested lay ups......You must be a complete jack ass to want a 6-7 center instead of 7-1.

Shaq has played solid.....and Boston gets it thats why they went out and got Shaq, who wanted to be a spur...and Jermaine who can still be a very good defender.

We decided to roll the dice with Bonner, Blair and a soon to be 36yr old Dice. Splitter will be good I hope but we still need more size.

Spurs had several shots at signing bigs this off season and decided to sign and undersized 2 and a 245 lb 6-11 center......We had trade options.....Tyrus Thomas would have looked nice part time with Tim moving to Center.

We had shots at Prizbilla, Camby, Kaman......Earl Barron could even do a solid job for 12mpg. We have stood pat and fucked ourselves.

I love the Spurs but face it the diff between the great teams like Boston, LA..ect is they do what it takes to get what is needed to win.


all of this made me lose respect for the spurs F.O. Its not like im anyone improtant to the NBA but these are really simple things that seem like stubborn decesions by pop and the crew. people are flabbergasted by this shit lol i know i am

[TD 21]

The Spurs' PG pick and roll defense has to get better. That is the Spurs biggest weakness defensively (IMO). It was last year and evidently still is so far this year. Paul went wherever he wanted in pick and roll situations, and usually ended up in uncontested lay-ups at the rim (especially when Blair was in the game-- When Tim or Dice's man was being used to set screens).

Part of this is due to the undersized front-court (interior help side defense when penetrator turns the corner on PG and hedger/helper) and the other has to do with Tim's declining mobility, which makes it harder for him to hedge more efficiently and effectively when his man is the guy setting screens (Splitter will help this area of weakness whenever his man is setting screens because of his better mobililty--And he will help whenever he is playing helpside in P&R's because he is a better interior defensive threat than McDyess/Blair/Bonner.) * IMO- Part of Duncan not being an effective helper/hedger on the pick and roll when his man is setting the screens is partially because of a slight defensive fundamental mishap (maybe due to him trying to conserve energy during the course of the game)--He is usually virtually standing straight up in hedge/helper scenarios, which doesn't give him the optimal mobility-- He needs to bend those knees to give him the best opportunity to defend more efficiently in those situations.


So far Darren Collins and Chris Paul have torn the Spurs apart in the pick and roll. That has to improve significantly if Spurs want to be one of the best defensive teams in the league. It starts with the point guard fighting and recovering through screens better and ends with the bigs hedging and helping from the weakside more efficiently.

To help this area, the Spurs could benefit by showing the strong hedge more (brief double team of the point guard; like the Spurs did against the Hornets and Paul in the playoffs in 2008) when they face great pick and roll point guards. This would give the point guard more time to recover when fighting over/under screens-- which essentially is beneficial for the defense(most notably point guard )to keep the offense (PG) in front of them and away from the vulnerable painted area.

All in all, the pick and roll defense has to improve first and foremost if Spurs have any hope to play past the middle of May. In order to improve it, it will take a collective effort.

Agreed. It's been clear for a few seasons now, though, that Duncan goes out of his way to not bend his knees and tries to avoid fast, sudden, or lateral movements, too. It's not just defensively, but offensively as well. Rare is the baseline spin move or multiple fakes or pivots that we were once accustomed to seeing regularly. Almost everything he does now is measured, deliberate and if he's being guarded by a smaller or similar sized defender, he'll often times try to lengthen them (as opposed to out skill), by using that shot put type shot that Okafor blocked yesterday.

Obviously his knees hurt him to the point where he feels he has to take those types of precautions, so don't expect a change to his defensive stance when defending pick-and-rolls. There's no other logical explanation. It's not an IQ type thing, his IQ for the game is as high as any player.

[SenorSpur]

George Hill was ranked as one of the worst 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA last year, opponents shot 52% against him..he was also ranked as one of the worst rotation defenders in the NBA as well..his p&r D was surprisingly his only asset last year..

This is why I can't understand why Pop continued to "overrate" the notion of Hill, as a lockdown perimeter defender. I trust this information will, forever put to rest, that fallacy.

Spurs' perimeter D is terrible, and that was my biggest concern coming into the season..they will have to hope that Splitter can make up for it, which is something I wouldn't count on..

Nor would I. Splitter may be a very servicable band-aid, but definitely not a cure all for the team's ability to defend the pick-n-roll. As some others have said, seeing as this was such a glariing weakness last spring, I'm a bit surprised that it's still a lingering issue now. Unless the Spurs can somehow obtain a wing player, who is at least an above-average perimeter defender, Splitter's contributions, at least on the defensive end, may be rendered margnial, at best.

[ChuckD]

I assume you know little of basket ball so I will help you. To keep it on your level, we cannot defend the paint!!!!!!!!!! Pick and roll all you want, if you have large, long men inside that clog the lane pick and rolls no not all that effective.

We cannot defend the paint so, our wings sag off allowing uncontested jumpers often in hopes of preventing uncontested lay ups......You must be a complete jack ass to want a 6-7 center instead of 7-1.

Shaq has played solid.....and Boston gets it thats why they went out and got Shaq, who wanted to be a spur...and Jermaine who can still be a very good defender.

We decided to roll the dice with Bonner, Blair and a soon to be 36yr old Dice. Splitter will be good I hope but we still need more size. Shaq is playing 21 minutes, and is grabbing 3.7 D rebounds and blocking a whopping 0.3 shots. Tell me you're really not creaming your pants over that.

Spurs had several shots at signing bigs this off season and decided to sign and undersized 2 and a 245 lb 6-11 center......We had trade options.....Tyrus Thomas would have looked nice part time with Tim moving to Center.

We had shots at Prizbilla, Camby, Kaman......Earl Barron could even do a solid job for 12mpg. We have stood pat and fucked ourselves.

I love the Spurs but face it the diff between the great teams like Boston, LA..ect is they do what it takes to get what is needed to win.

I assume you haven't actually watched Shaq for, oh, ten years or so, but he's an absolute zero in any phase of defense at this point. I remember when Miami (correctly) dumped him to Phoenix, and they held him out for a couple of weeks to have their trainers work on his back and his glutes, and they pronounced him ready. They were playing us, and I was shocked at his physical shape because I hadn't seen him in probably 3-4 years. He got an O rebound right under the basket, and literally had to kick it out because he could no longer elevate directly off the floor and dunk a ball. I know that because he rim-checked himself earlier in the game. He needed 2 running steps to flush the ball. That was all back in 2008, so he's only gotten older and less athletic.

There were a LOT of other teams that didn't go after Shaq, and Boston only signed him because Rasheed retired, and Perkins blew out his knee. Shaq is playing a whopping 21 minutes, and grabbing 3.7 D rebounds and blocking a stupendous 0.3 shots. Tell me you're really not creaming your jeans over that shit.

[Manu-of-steel]

I assume you haven't actually watched Shaq for, oh, ten years or so, but he's an absolute zero in any phase of defense at this point. I remember when Miami (correctly) dumped him to Phoenix, and they held him out for a couple of weeks to have their trainers work on his back and his glutes, and they pronounced him ready. They were playing us, and I was shocked at his physical shape because I hadn't seen him in probably 3-4 years. He got an O rebound right under the basket, and literally had to kick it out because he could no longer elevate directly off the floor and dunk a ball. I know that because he rim-checked himself earlier in the game. He needed 2 running steps to flush the ball. That was all back in 2008, so he's only gotten older and less athletic.

There were a LOT of other teams that didn't go after Shaq, and Boston only signed him because Rasheed retired, and Perkins blew out his knee. Shaq is playing a whopping 21 minutes, and grabbing 3.7 D rebounds and blocking a stupendous 0.3 shots. Tell me you're really not creaming your jeans over that shit.

I agree with this post. When Shaq was still with the suns, our p n r killed them because shaq is not moving laterally. I'm hoping Splitter will be able to help us on this problem.

[MaNu4Tres]

In 10 minutes of action, Splitter was outstanding in pick and roll defensive scenarios when his man was setting screens. After hedging hard out on the guard, he seemed to recover very quickly in his rotations.

Very promising debut from Tiago :tu

[ElNono]

In 10 minutes of action, Splitter was outstanding in pick and roll defensive scenarios when his man was setting screens. After hedging hard out on the guard, he seemed to recover very quickly in his rotations.

Very promising debut from Tiago :tu

I have to say, he really impressed with the very aggressive hedging. He will be eventually tested when paired with Duncan and when TD gets drawn out, which is the situation you pointed out in the OP. I thought he did a commendable job contesting at the rim in the limited time he played, being his first NBA game and all.

[yavozerb]

The suns well help determine where the spurs are on p&r defense at this point of the season..Always a must see game.

[ElNono]

The suns well help determine where the spurs are on p&r defense at this point of the season..Always a must see game.

Well, I guess it's safe to say it's officially terrible.
Nash at this point is so far into Tony's head... It's not that Tony doesn't try, but he just can't figure him out. Temple's size seemed to work better against Nash (and not very well at all against Dragic's speed).

Timmy is hard to read. He actually came up with a couple of nice blocks at the very end, after being very poor overall throughout the game.

Dragic also exposed Temple/Blair with the P&R. Very crafty guy, he made all the right decisions, and he always caught us with our pants down until we started trapping him in the second half (where he made us pay with a corner three from Richardson but was otherwise ineffective).

We need to improve tremendously on this. It's key. We're giving up 27-28 point quarters, and we're always a dry spell away from losing games (see Hornets game). While I will take any win right now, I much rather get them with defense on a consistent basis than with offensive heroics.

[quentin_compson]

The P'n'R'-defense against the Suns was poor from the beginning, but it turned downright atrocious whenever Duncan wasn't on the floor (he wasn't great but still miles ahead of every other Spur in that department). Somewhere along the way, I lost track of how often Nash or Dragic got the ball to Warrick for an open dunk. I agree with ElliotYoko Nono, this is something the Spurs have to work out as quick as possible.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

As Tim observed after the Suns game, they actually figured it out in the 4th. Both men sagged and they effectively stopped the small passing to the big for a layup. I think they got 3 stops in a row. They forced a challenged runner in or near the lane by the small. Nash missed a couple of them, RJ hit his final big Trey, and that was it.