Here's the Real Reason Independents Have Turned Against the Democrats

[coyotes_geek]

CG: As an independent, I thought this was a pretty good read.

****************

The expected Republican upset at the voting booth today is bound to leave many inside the Beltway confused. What on earth do the American people want? After all, just two years ago they threw out the Republicans, and now they are throwing out the Democrats.

What Americans want is a government that stays out of their pocketbooks and out of their private lives. Under Presidents Bush and Obama, we've gotten just the opposite: government program after government program created with our money to socially engineer the economy.

Evidence of voters' desires lies in the huge swing we are seeing in the so-called independents. They are leaning heavily Republican in every poll. Pundits and political observers use the word independents frequently, but rarely do they define it. Now would be a good time.

I believe independents are fiscally-conservative, yet socially-liberal. How do I know? I'm one of them. I don't want to be taxed to death, and I don't want to tell other people how to live their lives.

Yet, for decades the choice has been either A.) a party that didn't want to overtax me, but seemed awfully concerned about what happens in people bedrooms, or B.) a party that was far more tolerant on social issues but loved spending taxpayer money to "fix" things.

But many believers in small-government think it is a concept that should dictate every aspect of Washington, not just the size of say, the Department of Commerce. Laws designed to legislate social values run contrary to the idea of small government because making laws about peoples private lives is about making government bigger, not smaller.

Now to today's election and the supposed flip-flop of the American public. To independent voters, Presidents Obama and Bush look awfully similar. Both have presided over enormous increases in government spending, and deep government intervention into large portions of the economy. From President Obama we got health care reform, from President Bush we got the largest federal intervention into education in the nations history, and huge subsidies for people to buy homes. Both have given us protectionism. Both bailed out the banks. Both bailed out the auto industry. For 10 years now we've had no difference in governing policies regardless of who was in power.

So now what?

After the Republican sweep of 1994, President Clinton was forced to find fiscal religion, and independents finally got policy changes they wanted: welfare reform, an embrace of the free markets with the passage of NAFTA, and a balanced budget driven in large part by less spending. (Thank you Newt Gingrich.) With the glaring exceptions of the tax-hike of 1993 and the Defense of Marriage Act, President Clinton looks pretty good to the independent voter of today.

Will President Obama learn from President Clinton? Only if he corrects his view of history.

Right now, the President consistently blames a lack of government oversight and regulation under the Bush years, as one of the key reasons for the nations economic woes. The truth is just the opposite and the American people know that. President Bush may have been Republican, but he didn't preside like one. We haven't seen a Republican president who truly believed in keeping government small in the lives of its people since Ronald Reagan.

Despite an enormous amount of new legislation (the stimulus bill, health care reform, financial regulatory reform, and education finance reform) President Obama's ratings have never been lower.

He needs to ask himself why.

The answer: because he is doing exactly the same thing his predecessor did. Spending too much, regulating too much, and intervening too much, with little to show for it in the way of economic improvement.

To the American people, less is more. They know exactly what they want. Now if only the politicians they vote for would give it to them.

Michelle Caruso-Cabrera is an anchor of CNBCs Power Lunch and author of 'You Know I'm Right, More Prosperity, Less Government.'

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Heres-the-Real-Reason-cnbc-1546934701.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=

[baseline bum]

With the glaring exceptions of the tax-hike of 1993 and the Defense of Marriage Act, President Clinton looks pretty good to the independent voter of today.

It's ridiculous that anyone could think Clinton looks good in retrospect after shipping our jobs to Mexico and China and turning Wall Street loose.

[coyotes_geek]

It's ridiculous that anyone could think Clinton looks good in retrospect after shipping our jobs to Mexico and China and turning Wall Street loose.

It's all relative.

Besides, the trend of manufacturing jobs heading overseas started long before Clinton, and just like every other president we've had/will have, it's something that's completely out of his control.

[Yonivore]

Bottom line. Independents want a REAL Conservative government.

[boutons_deux]

total bullshit.

what The American People have got for the last 35 years is a VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY of the super rich against everybody else.

The VRWC, including their hired tools at CNBC, puts out shit like this article to hide their own crimes and aggressions.

[DarrinS]

total bullshit.

what The American People have got for the last 35 years is a VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY of the super rich against everybody else.

The VRWC, including their hired tools at CNBC, puts out shit like this article to hide their own crimes and aggressions.

:lol :downspin: :lol :downspin: :lol :downspin:

[MannyIsGod]

I"ll finish reading it, but the 2nd paragraph opening line is complete and utter horse shit considering none one's pocket book has been invaded in either administration.

Attributing these waves to wanting the government out of your pocketbook shows an immense disconnect with reality.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, sorry CG this may be what you want the American people's justifications to be but I just don't see it. And I understand the sentiment, because 2 years ago I thought that the American people had finally had enough and were voting in Obama for reasons I felt were important.

This time I see it for what it is. A mass of people who see the economy is in shambles and who are trying to do something to fix it. They're the panicking person hitting every button as quickly as possible trying to hit the right one to fix the problem because they have no fucking idea what the problem is or how to fix it.

[Cry Havoc]

Right now, the President consistently blames a lack of government oversight and regulation under the Bush years, as one of the key reasons for the nations economic woes. The truth is just the opposite and the American people know that. President Bush may have been Republican, but he didn't preside like one. We haven't seen a Republican president who truly believed in keeping government small in the lives of its people since Ronald Reagan.

Reaganomics would put this country into a depression today. It would be a disaster.

[MannyIsGod]

CNBC arguing against financial regulations? I'm shocked.

[ElNono]

I don't think the OP is a 'independent' at all, tbh.
You might call him a historical democrat (what dems used to be back in the 30's), or merely a conservative that's disillusioned with what the GOP has been doing for the last 30 or so years.

[boutons_deux]

small govt is a 100% dishonest euphemism for "do not obstruct the crimes and predations of the Haves against the Have-nots"

[ElNono]

In other words, this guys is as much an independent as, say, Wild Cobra...

[boutons_deux]

Here's the Real Reason for the redistribution/concentration of wealth at the top, while everyody else stagnates or becomes poorer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/opinion/02herbert.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

[baseline bum]

It's all relative.

Besides, the trend of manufacturing jobs heading overseas started long before Clinton, and just like every other president we've had/will have, it's something that's completely out of his control.

The hell it was. He bent our nation over the table giving China most favored nation status, lying to our faces and telling us about what a great export opportunity it would be to sell to billions (who of course were dirt-poor and could never afford our exports). And his blind support of financial ``innovation'' is the direct cause of the enormous mess we're in now. Clinton, Greenspan, and Newt fucked us all good.

[MannyIsGod]

The real reason people view Clinton so well now? They remember a burgeoning economy and a time before terrorism caused the dude at the airport checking your luggage to know that the exteneze in your luggage isn't working.

They're assocating Clinton with a happier time in this countries history much in the same way people look back at their teenage years with fondness after their innocence is lost.

[DarkReign]

NAFTA is the single worst thing to happen to the American economy in my lifetime. Bar none.

[Winehole23]

Sad to say, I disagree with the narrative that the fiscal probity of he parties has much to do with the way people vote.

The GOP lost mostly on perceptions of incompetence and venality in 2006. Medicare part D really didn't figure into it, nor did deficit financed tax cuts, nor did the off-books budgeting of war so much as the crappy results.

The Dems are losing this time around because of the severity of the economic downturn and the snail's pace of the technical recovery, i.e., the perception that their policies are incompetent and out of touch. Also, the promised change did not materialize: what materialized was continuity with GWB.

In the main, self-described liberals and conservatives alike have trouble identifying what particular gov't programs they'd be willing to do without. The portion of voters who actually want smaller government is exaggerated by both sides.

[Cry Havoc]

The hell it was. He bent our nation over the table giving China most favored nation status, lying to our faces and telling us about what a great export opportunity it would be to sell to billions (who of course were dirt-poor and could never afford our exports). And his blind support of financial ``innovation'' is the direct cause of the enormous mess we're in now. Clinton, Greenspan, and Newt fucked us all good.

Just curious, since you say it's Clinton's fault. Let's assume that is true.

Bush had 8 years to fix it, and didn't.

And now Obama is being blamed for not being able to fix what Bush couldn't?

It's amazing how tired of a rhetoric the blame game is, and yet people keep clinging to it because they can't see past partisanship to rationally examine the problems. Clinton did a lot of good for our economy as well.

[ChumpDumper]

They turned against Democrats because unemployment is still relatively high.

That's pretty much it.

[DarkReign]

...oh, and I can never take any article by anyone seriously when they use lines like this:


What Americans want is...


...the American people know that.


To the American people, less is more. They know exactly what they want.

Never try to speak for "Americans". Too many people with very different wants and needs. Take boutons then look at Yonivore. Both Americans, and apparently, this broad thinks shes got them both encompassed in her one page essay of old tripe.

[Cry Havoc]

NAFTA is the single worst thing to happen to the American economy in my lifetime. Bar none.

It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

[ElNono]

I thought Clinton had a great presidency. The manufacturing jobs were either gone or going anyways. He actually helped nurture a services economy and make it blossom.
As far as the Wall Street conundrum, it has many parents. You can pin it on Clinton or Greenspan, but every congress and administration that came afterwards played along, including this one.

[DarkReign]

IMO, Manny had it right. The economy is shit for everyone but the rich and invested, unemployment is high, the leadership in this country is a contradiction of terms and btw, the future doesnt look very bright either. In fact, it looks to be worse tomorrow than it is today.

So the monkeys are hitting switches, ANY switch, in the hopes that by random chance Shakespeare's Opus will materialize on the other end.

Fat chance. We're rounding the bowl, some know it, most deny it, a very few do not care.

[baseline bum]

It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

Wait, what? I thought you were just giving me shit about how Clinton did good for our economy? Why don't you look at who signed Gramm–Leach–Bliley.

[ElNono]

It's the same old disconnect. Different discourses, same end result. You always end up feeling you're getting screwed by either party.

[baseline bum]

So the monkeys are hitting switches, ANY switch, in the hopes that by random chance Shakespeare's Opus will materialize on the other end.


:lol That's the best description I have ever heard for American elections.

[Cry Havoc]

Wait, what? I thought you were just giving me shit about how Clinton did good for our economy? Why don't you look at who signed Gramm–Leach–Bliley.

Clinton started untying the shoestrings.

Bush pulled and tugged on them until there were no strings left in the shoe, and then burned it.

I'm not absolving Clinton of responsibility, the way you are trying to heap all the blame on him to save the weight of that from breaking Bush's back. Bush took a good economy, albeit with some problems, and made nearly every single situation worse for the American people. He is not wholly to blame, but he shares the bulk of it for bungling around in the White House for 8 years.

[coyotes_geek]

The hell it was. He bent our nation over the table giving China most favored nation status, lying to our faces and telling us about what a great export opportunity it would be to sell to billions (who of course were dirt-poor and could never afford our exports). And his blind support of financial ``innovation'' is the direct cause of the enormous mess we're in now. Clinton, Greenspan, and Newt fucked us all good.

The loss of American manufacturing jobs overseas started back in the 50s with the textiles industry. Clinton's dealings with China, at worst, merely accelerated a trend which was inevitable to begin with.

I'm with you on the financial stuff though.


The real reason people view Clinton so well now? They remember a burgeoning economy and a time before terrorism caused the dude at the airport checking your luggage to know that the exteneze in your luggage isn't working.

They're assocating Clinton with a happier time in this countries history much in the same way people look back at their teenage years with fondness after their innocence is lost.

Agree that's certainly part of the equation.


It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

Agreed.

[DarkReign]

It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

Totally agreed, the financial sector's collapse was extremely bad and is like 1a on the list, but exactly how many total jobs were lost directly from it?

None of this is directly directed at you, CH.

NAFTA has cost this country millions of jobs. Millions upon millions. NAFTA has employed more Canadians than it has Americans....Canada fucking loves NAFTA!

Mexicans dont know any better, senor. They think its normal to have unelected drug cartels run your local government, no better than the fucking wastes of flesh wandering the Middle East deserts looking to Islamic Extremists as saviors because they bring them food, unlike the elected government.

China. Ha. Haha. China. Their designs are to literally supplant the US as the world's sole superpower. They cannot achieve that goal without the US's help and we're dumb enough to do it because we're idiots.

NAFTA is the bane of this country's existence and is never talked about in the context that it should be because that would damage multi-trillion dollar companies from raping the uneducated workers of the world all with the blessing of the US government, subsidized on the backs of ignorant American taxpayers standing in unemployment lines wondering "How'd this happen?"

No offense, but lawyers dont produce shit. Nor do doctors. Nor do financial advisors, bankers, tax lawyers or any other glorified profession in this country. What do those people produce that can be sold to a non-American? Nothing, thats what.

[DarkReign]

The backbone of any healthy country is manufacturing of all kinds. It isnt glamorous and it doesnt have movies made about it that make the ins-and-outs of look excessively cool. Hell, it doesnt even pay that much unless youre running the show. But you dont need 8 years of college to do it with all the resulting debt from that expensive education and you actually produce something tangible and useful.

Clothes, cars, metals, stampings, forgings, ingots, structures, frames, hell if this country wanted, microchips and other computer components. This list is never-ending, so I will end it here.

All that shit can be put in a package and sold to someone else, even a non-American. Hell, a software designer at least produces something that can be sold, what does a lawyer sell? Boil it down, he sells advice.

What does a banker sell? Boil it down, advice. A doctor? boil it down, advice. You cant export what they do, so how the fucking fuck do Americans think that everyone in this country should be a lawyer/doctor/banker/insurance salesmen/insert white-collar job here? Who will be the clients for their advice, other lawyers, doctors and bankers?

This country has its collective head up its collectively large ass and to me, everyone seems so ignorant to the basic truths of it all, I dont really care anymore about any of you fuckers. Rot in hell, piss up a rope, take a big dive in a drained pool, more power to ya.

Im raping you when you aint looking. Im going to suck this country dry for all its worth at the expense of every single one my neighbors, hell, in spite of my national neighbors. Americans, in general, are unworthy of anything, that the collective plight of the dumbshits in the unemployment lines causes me no chagrin, but more a smile creeps on my face.

Less for them, more for me. Its pretty obvious in my 30 years in this country that this is how it works. That some people (like a certain family member) have the gall to cry about whats fair or right has actually caused me to laugh in their face. I would do the same to a complete stranger with 3 kids and a tough story about the misfortunes of existence. Fuck you and your twisted sense of fairness, is what I would say.

Your government has sold people like you out for the sake of people you will never meet. Even if you did meet them, they wouldnt want you or accept you, so you might as well get real comfortable with life's giant shit sandwich because its going to be your dietary source until the day you wipe your miserable stain off this planet.

Im done. I stopped caring about 4 years ago and now I am completely devoid of an compassion for my fellow Americans. I dont care what happens to this country anymore than I care for what happens to geese that get separated from the flock heading south for the winter.

Things come, things go. You live, you die. What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you. So long as youre crafty, have a work ethic and a little luck, fuck them, youll be fine. Help those you care about and step over the bodies of the ones you dont.

[coyotes_geek]

So what do we do when all those widgets we're allegedly going to manufacture and sell to non-Americans can be manufactured by non-Americans who are willing to work for a fraction of the cost that Americans will?

[EVAY]

Sad to say, I disagree with the narrative that the fiscal probity of he parties has much to do with the way people vote.

The GOP lost mostly on perceptions of incompetence and venality in 2006. Medicare part D really didn't figure into it, nor did deficit financed tax cuts, nor did the off-books budgeting of war so much as the crappy results.

The Dems are losing this time around because of the severity of the economic downturn and the snail's pace of the technical recovery, i.e., the perception that their policies are incompetent and out of touch. Also, the promised change did not materialize: what materialized was continuity with GWB.

In the main, self-described liberals and conservatives alike have trouble identifying what particular gov't programs they'd be willing to do without. The portion of voters who actually want smaller government is exaggerated by both sides.


I do believe that you have broken the code, WH.

[Winehole23]

Thx, but no way can I take credit for repeating what many others have said, even here in this forum.

(The counter-narrative I put forward works in a fairly well-worn rut, though admittedly, it is one that easily gets lost in the two-party scrum.)

[Cry Havoc]

DR, if NAFTA hurt the US so much, why is it helping Canada? They have many of the same standards for employment that we do.

[DarkReign]

So what do we do when all those widgets we're allegedly going to manufacture and sell to non-Americans can be manufactured by non-Americans who are willing to work for a fraction of the cost that Americans will?

Therein lies the quandry, no?

Youre either a protectionist (bad word) or youre not. No wrong answer, but when you see the effect with your own eyes...

[ElNono]

I don't agree that manufacturing is the end-all, be-all.
The US has been basically living off licensing or selling intangibles in the form of services/intellectual property/etc for nearly half a century.
That's the reason you see the extreme international lobbying and pushing for DMCA-like legislation worldwide.
Unfortunately, unless you're willing and capable of bullying regimes like China into some sort of democracy where their workers have a voice and vote, the manufacturing is not going to come back. Even pseudo-democratic countries are difficult to compete against, like Mexico.

[101A]

It's all relative.

Besides, the trend of manufacturing jobs heading overseas started long before Clinton, and just like every other president we've had/will have, it's something that's completely out of his control.


Not exactly.

Clinton made damn sure, despite Tianamen Square, that MFNS for China was established and maintained.

Where's Clinton from again?

Where's Wal-Mart from again?

Oh, yeah.

It had begun, but the Wal-Mart/China connection truly opened the flood-gates. Hell, in the late '80 Wal-Mart used to run commercials bragging about how many made in USA products they sold.

I was young and naive once, (now older and slightly less naive); was all about the "free" markets; now I recognize that as the bullshit it is; Germany has it right; and is enjoying the rewards for the judicious use of protectionism.

[101A]

The backbone of any healthy country is manufacturing of all kinds. It isnt glamorous and it doesnt have movies made about it that make the ins-and-outs of look excessively cool. Hell, it doesnt even pay that much unless youre running the show. But you dont need 8 years of college to do it with all the resulting debt from that expensive education and you actually produce something tangible and useful.

Clothes, cars, metals, stampings, forgings, ingots, structures, frames, hell if this country wanted, microchips and other computer components. This list is never-ending, so I will end it here.

All that shit can be put in a package and sold to someone else, even a non-American. Hell, a software designer at least produces something that can be sold, what does a lawyer sell? Boil it down, he sells advice.

What does a banker sell? Boil it down, advice. A doctor? boil it down, advice. You cant export what they do, so how the fucking fuck do Americans think that everyone in this country should be a lawyer/doctor/banker/insurance salesmen/insert white-collar job here? Who will be the clients for their advice, other lawyers, doctors and bankers?

This country has its collective head up its collectively large ass and to me, everyone seems so ignorant to the basic truths of it all, I dont really care anymore about any of you fuckers. Rot in hell, piss up a rope, take a big dive in a drained pool, more power to ya.

Im raping you when you aint looking. Im going to suck this country dry for all its worth at the expense of every single one my neighbors, hell, in spite of my national neighbors. Americans, in general, are unworthy of anything, that the collective plight of the dumbshits in the unemployment lines causes me no chagrin, but more a smile creeps on my face.

Less for them, more for me. Its pretty obvious in my 30 years in this country that this is how it works. That some people (like a certain family member) have the gall to cry about whats fair or right has actually caused me to laugh in their face. I would do the same to a complete stranger with 3 kids and a tough story about the misfortunes of existence. Fuck you and your twisted sense of fairness, is what I would say.

Your government has sold people like you out for the sake of people you will never meet. Even if you did meet them, they wouldnt want you or accept you, so you might as well get real comfortable with life's giant shit sandwich because its going to be your dietary source until the day you wipe your miserable stain off this planet.

Im done. I stopped caring about 4 years ago and now I am completely devoid of an compassion for my fellow Americans. I dont care what happens to this country anymore than I care for what happens to geese that get separated from the flock heading south for the winter.

Things come, things go. You live, you die. What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you. So long as youre crafty, have a work ethic and a little luck, fuck them, youll be fine. Help those you care about and step over the bodies of the ones you dont.

Damn.

[MannyIsGod]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty fucking ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.

[DarrinS]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty fucking ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.


Maybe their reality is that they have a mortgage, kids, and have been unemployed for 20 months. Maybe their reality isn't being a college student with very few responsibilities.

[DarrinS]

I don't agree that manufacturing is the end-all, be-all.
The US has been basically living off licensing or selling intangibles in the form of services/intellectual property/etc for nearly half a century.
That's the reason you see the extreme international lobbying and pushing for DMCA-like legislation worldwide.
Unfortunately, unless you're willing and capable of bullying regimes like China into some sort of democracy where their workers have a voice and vote, the manufacturing is not going to come back. Even pseudo-democratic countries are difficult to compete against, like Mexico.


I'm going to have to agree with you on this.

[MannyIsGod]

Maybe their reality is that they have a mortgage, kids, and have been unemployed for 20 months. Maybe their reality isn't being a college student with very few responsibilities.

:lol @ few responsibilities. Who pays my rent Darrin? Who pays for my meals? Who pays for me to get where I need to go? Who goes to work for me Darrin? Who does the hours of reading and studying I have to do? Who goes to school full time and holds down a nearly full time job? (4 hours a week from being full time - I work and go to school and still find enough time to be more informed unlike stupid asses such as yourself)

Tell me Darrin, What did those democrats in Congress do that caused all of this considering it started before most of them took office?

As I said, they're out of touch with reality.

[TeyshaBlue]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty fucking ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.

Quantitative easing is much harder for the average Joe to grok than a fresh bouquet of $1000 bills in your checking account. Plus there's still the spectre of disconnect between stimulus and home budgets.

[DarrinS]

:lol @ few responsibilities. Who pays my rent Darrin? Who pays for my meals? Who pays for me to get where I need to go? Who goes to work for me Darrin? Who does the hours of reading and studying I have to do? Who goes to school full time and holds down a nearly full time job? (4 hours a week from being full time - I work and go to school and still find enough time to be more informed unlike stupid asses such as yourself)

Tell me Darrin, What did those democrats in Congress do that caused all of this considering it started before most of them took office?

As I said, they're out of touch with reality.



I also put myself through school. I wish my life was as easy as it was back then. You'll feel the same way one day. Trust me. You are just responsible for yourself right now.

[MannyIsGod]

No doubt that its easier to see that you have no money in your bank than it is to understand economics but its not unreasonable to expect the population in this country to have a better understanding than "I have no money vote for the new guy!" which is EXACTLY what happened.

[DarrinS]

Is the current unemployment rate a reality?

[TeyshaBlue]

No doubt that its easier to see that you have no money in your bank than it is to understand economics but its not unreasonable to expect the population in this country to have a better understanding than "I have no money vote for the new guy!" which is EXACTLY what happened.

I think the disconnect is more like, "I have no money, but the fucking banks do! Vote out the guys that did this."

[TeyshaBlue]

I also put myself through school. I wish my life was as easy as it was back then. You'll feel the same way one day. Trust me. You are just responsible for yourself right now.

Oh, please. My life is exponentially easier now than it was when I was pulling graveyard shifts frying burrito shaped objects at a Town and Country convenience store whilst pulling down 18 semester hours.:rolleyes

We're all just a little different, Darrin.

[DarrinS]

Oh, please. My life is exponentially easier now than it was when I was pulling graveyard shifts frying burrito shaped objects at a Town and Country convenience store whilst pulling down 18 semester hours.:rolleyes

We're all just a little different, Darrin.


Spare me. Unless you were in medical school or taking care of a family, college life is not difficult.

[clambake]

i think darrin is having second thoughts about his wealthy boss.

[TeyshaBlue]

Spare me. Unless you were in medical school or taking care of a family, college life is not difficult.

No Darrin. Everyone's experience does not mimic your coddled collegiate experience. Get over yourself and stop pretending to speak for me, dumb ass.

[DarrinS]

No Darrin. Everyone's experience does not mimic your coddled collegiate experience. Get over yourself and stop pretending to speak for me, dumb ass.



I didn't even start college until I had been working for several years. I went to school at night and it took me 7 years to finish. LOL "coddled" experience. That said, my life was still easier then.


Sorry you had to fry burritos. I never had to work much with food because I had other skills.

[MannyIsGod]

I think the disconnect is more like, "I have no money, but the fucking banks do! Vote out the guys that did this."

Yeah - there's obviously a lot of anger out there.

My only point is that in 2 years if shit doesn't improve then we'll be doing this all over again. And if it does improve - it did so for factors unrelated to congress or legislation they passed.

[TeyshaBlue]

@ Darrin S. Nice passive/agressive finish. Grow the fuck up.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah - there's obviously a lot of anger out there.

My only point is that in 2 years if shit doesn't improve then we'll be doing this all over again. And if it does improve - it did so for factors unrelated to congress or legislation they passed.

Yup...very likely the indies will swing again. And whether or not the economy improves due to legislation...perhaps. Classically, the conservatives' best role has simply been to act as a brake upon liberalism, IMO.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin is it harder for you now because you have a family?

[DarrinS]

Darrin is it harder for you now because you have a family?



Yes.

[MannyIsGod]

Figures.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wait, what? I thought you were just giving me shit about how Clinton did good for our economy? Why don't you look at who signed Gramm–Leach–Bliley.

/argument

Clinton sucked.

[MannyIsGod]

The Strange Death of Fiscal Policy
One clear result of the midterms is that we won’t have anything like a further round of stimulus. And this, in turn, means that the narrative all the Very Serious People will tell is that fiscal policy was tried, it failed, and that’s that.

But the real facts don’t at all support the conventional wisdom.

Actually, let me focus on an international comparison. You often hear the US experience contrasted with Germany: America, we’re told, went for Keynesian policies, while Germany chose austerity, and Germany did better.

But as far as GDP is concerned, Germany did not, in fact, do better:

http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/us_g_y.PNG
Eurostat
Yes, Germany did better on employment — but this reflects policies that American conservatives surely don’t support, including employment subsidies, strong unions, and rules making it difficult to fire workers.

And what may be even more surprising: if we look at actual government purchases of goods and services, as opposed to transfer payments (many of them just payments from the federal government to states), Germany was more Keynesian than the United States:

http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/us_g_g.PNG
Eurostat
So, it’s an amazing thing: Obama and company have managed to convince people that big government failed, without actually delivering big government.

[DarkReign]

DR, if NAFTA hurt the US so much, why is it helping Canada? They have many of the same standards for employment that we do.

Missed this after my irrational, intolerant posts. My bad.

It helps Canada because they have a) Universal Healthcare and b) decreased legacy costs due to a robust social security-type program.

Their socialist policies make doing business there a net-gain in most instances for American companies that are used to paying for union healthcare and pensions.

[MannyIsGod]

Ding ding ding. No one ever addresses the point that socialized healthcare is a huge boon for businesses in countries that have it.

[DarkReign]

Ding ding ding. No one ever addresses the point that socialized healthcare is a huge boon for businesses in countries that have it.

Its a truism so long as everything else is equal (conditions, pay scale, etc) that socialized healthcare is a big plus for business.

Its not true when something else is unequal, ie Mexico.

[MannyIsGod]

Its a truism so long as everything else is equal (conditions, pay scale, etc) that socialized healthcare is a big plus for business.

Its not true when something else is unequal, ie Mexico.

If I give you a 100 dollars I'm giving you a 100 dollars regardless of whether nor not you you have 100,000 in debt.

:toast

[SnakeBoy]

The backbone of any healthy country is manufacturing of all kinds. It isnt glamorous and it doesnt have movies made about it that make the ins-and-outs of look excessively cool. Hell, it doesnt even pay that much unless youre running the show. But you dont need 8 years of college to do it with all the resulting debt from that expensive education and you actually produce something tangible and useful.

Clothes, cars, metals, stampings, forgings, ingots, structures, frames, hell if this country wanted, microchips and other computer components. This list is never-ending, so I will end it here.

All that shit can be put in a package and sold to someone else, even a non-American. Hell, a software designer at least produces something that can be sold, what does a lawyer sell? Boil it down, he sells advice.

What does a banker sell? Boil it down, advice. A doctor? boil it down, advice. You cant export what they do, so how the fucking fuck do Americans think that everyone in this country should be a lawyer/doctor/banker/insurance salesmen/insert white-collar job here? Who will be the clients for their advice, other lawyers, doctors and bankers?

This country has its collective head up its collectively large ass and to me, everyone seems so ignorant to the basic truths of it all, I dont really care anymore about any of you fuckers. Rot in hell, piss up a rope, take a big dive in a drained pool, more power to ya.

Im raping you when you aint looking. Im going to suck this country dry for all its worth at the expense of every single one my neighbors, hell, in spite of my national neighbors. Americans, in general, are unworthy of anything, that the collective plight of the dumbshits in the unemployment lines causes me no chagrin, but more a smile creeps on my face.

Less for them, more for me. Its pretty obvious in my 30 years in this country that this is how it works. That some people (like a certain family member) have the gall to cry about whats fair or right has actually caused me to laugh in their face. I would do the same to a complete stranger with 3 kids and a tough story about the misfortunes of existence. Fuck you and your twisted sense of fairness, is what I would say.

Your government has sold people like you out for the sake of people you will never meet. Even if you did meet them, they wouldnt want you or accept you, so you might as well get real comfortable with life's giant shit sandwich because its going to be your dietary source until the day you wipe your miserable stain off this planet.

Im done. I stopped caring about 4 years ago and now I am completely devoid of an compassion for my fellow Americans. I dont care what happens to this country anymore than I care for what happens to geese that get separated from the flock heading south for the winter.

Things come, things go. You live, you die. What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you. So long as youre crafty, have a work ethic and a little luck, fuck them, youll be fine. Help those you care about and step over the bodies of the ones you dont.

Wow DR that's pathetic. Good thing you aren't living through the great depression or even the 70's. You'd be jumping out of a window. Maybe you should think about therapy or better yet just leave that shitty state you're living in.

[DarkReign]

Wow DR that's pathetic. Good thing you aren't living through the great depression or even the 70's. You'd be jumping out of a window. Maybe you should think about therapy or better yet just leave that shitty state you're living in.

LOL, that was a bad day, but the feelings are certainly true. This will be my only response to it only because I never intended this to be about "me" and that series of posts reeks of ego-centrism.

But yeah, more or less, I dont much give a shit about my fellow humans anymore. My concentration is solely focused on me, my family and my company growing and succeeding even at the expense of everyone around me.

Just kicked off our first military project and have a meeting in December for 3 more. Taking our corner alley-shop from mediocrity to wealth and posperity in less than one year. So, yeah, I hope this country continues its foreign wars, hell! Make world war and kill everything that moves! Make American military equipment the standard of every NATO and UN country in the world by force if need be.

Because all that means is mega-dollars to me and my family, at the taxpayers expense, until the end of my time. Seriously, nothing the American people are doing changes anything about this country, all Americans recognize the path of ultimate ruin we track down with this borrow-and-spend national policy.

Oh sure, Americans want and vote for this practice to stop, but its pretty obvious the bought-and-paid for politicians arent listening. And since the American people are unwilling or unable to make them listen, I dont much give a shit anymore. I'll join the winning side and leech off them until theyre dry.

Make war, borrow more, less jobs driving the cost of labor forever down, more concentration of wealth at the top, less power, more consolidation...maybe one (imaginary) day have lobbyists of my own buying politicians to start false wars for my privately held profit. Really, I just dont give a shit anymore.

The only reason I was ever interested in politics at a young age is because of how completely broken I always thought the system was. 20 years later, it not only hasnt changed, its gotten far worse. Cant win, never will, dont care any longer. Time to win, time to excel, time to benefit, time to grow up and realize the reality of the system and how it can benefit you with hard-work, white skin and a minority business certification.

Exploit the system to my benefit, at the expense of everyone around me if need be, forever and always.

Like I said, this will be the only time I respond to the...outbursts I had in this thread. I am pretty much done with the political forum circle-jerk of not only this forum, but this country. 2 years from now, the Dems will be back in control, 4 years from now, the Repubs will be back in control. Because the monkeys think button pushing will actually change something or that this or that politician actually gives a shit about the voters in anyway. Im done with the illusion, done with the game. I'll comment from time to time on things that amuse me, or things that I find interesting, but I am really going to try and keep my less-than-amateur posts about economics and politics to a minimum.

No one I know in the real world cares about any of this shit, I can count how many times I have had a verbal political discourse in the past 10 years. They seem to do fine with not knowing or having an opinion, I think I'll try it. Just going to try and block it out and focus on improving my lot in life by any means necessary. Its going to take perpetual war to do so, so with that said, I certainly hope Washington stays the present course of starting and prosecuting foreign wars until Im dead, which creates a very unsustainable fiscal policy, which destabilizes basically everything. But fuck it and fuck the people that policy affects.

Thats all.

[MannyIsGod]

DR I don't think you truly believe all of what you say sometimes and I just think trying to note care is an exercise in futility but it is also a coping mechanism. That might just be me projecting, though.

[SnakeBoy]

Congratulations on you and your familys success DR. I hope you can find a way to enjoy it.

[DarkReign]

DR I don't think you truly believe all of what you say sometimes and I just think trying to note care is an exercise in futility but it is also a coping mechanism. That might just be me projecting, though.

Not going to argue with you on that.

[RandomGuy]

What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you.

If you try to open a business in an area with poor educational standards, then the shitty education of your potential employees has a pretty direct bearing on you.

That is just one of the more obvious ways that you are interconnected with other people, directly and indirectly. The only way you can avoid that is to find some land and live as a hunter gatherer.

If you are unwilling to do that, then you will be interconnected.