Science Saved My Soul

[IronMaxipad]

r6w2M50_Xdk

Beautiful tbh. :cry

[IronMaxipad]

"Stars must die so that I may live"

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/ettore10/Stuff/Reaction/manly_tears.jpg

[Sisk]

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/keller_s/not_this_crap_again.jpg

[phyzik]

cool video. Seriously.

Im being told by the courts to attend NA/AA meetings and while I will not deny that I drink alot (I seriously do not do drugs at all, at least since highschool), there are some SERIOUS religious undertones to these meetings and it makes me REALLY uncomfortable being a non-believer and having to participate or go to jail.

I would GLADLY go to a meeting that is similar but without all the "spiritual" stuff being forced upon me. As it stands now, I dont know of an alternative that would appease the court, therefore I am talking to my attourney that if the courts cannot provide me with a non-spiritual alternative it is against my constitutional rights to force me to go.

Im not looking for a "get out of jail free" card. I simply want something without the MAJOR religious undertones that permiate NA/AA meetings. I shouldnt be forced to accept a "higher power" if I dont believe in one.

Im sure people are going to jump on this like flies on shit but just look at it from my point of view for a minute before you respond.

Look up the 12 steps of AA/NA, specifically step 3, and tell me how that pertains to an "athiest" and how it does not affect their religious beliefs in accordance to the constitution.

AA/NA is anonymous s by default... The courts cant call and ask if Im showing up. I could easily get my freaking bartender to sign his name on the sheet they give me and it wont matter one lick. Its ANONYMOUS!! they dont keep records of who shows up.

I dont want to do that.

but I also dont want to be forced into meetings where its a requirement to "believe in a higher power, however you might believe in that higher power".

I DONT believe in a higher power..... Where does that leave me?

seriously... read this as if you did not believe in any higher power, and tell me how Im supposed to react.

These are the 12 steps of AA/NA

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7.Humbly asked Him (God) to remove our shortcomings.

8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[Sisk]

$20 phyzik was drunk when he posted that

[phyzik]

$20 phyzik was drunk when he posted that

been sober for 12 days now. (since I was ordered to attend AA)

its hard. I've gone through about 6 gallons of Red Diamond Tea. :lol

my non-belief in any God or spirituality is well documented in The Club.

[MiamiHeat]

atheist since I was 16

there is no God, with or without religion. If we are smart enough to reject religion, why would you consider a concept, that being a "God", that CAME from religion in the first place?

[desflood]

Phyzik, my father quit drinking with the help of AA when I was a teenager. He believes in God, but otherwise isn't much for the whole religion thing. He attended the meetings but skipped all of the "God stuff". Give it a shot; it worked for him. He hasn't had a drink in almost 20 years.

[DisAsTerBot]

Phyzik, my father quit drinking with the help of AA when I was a teenager. He believes in God, but otherwise isn't much for the whole religion thing. He attended the meetings but skipped all of the "God stuff". Give it a shot; it worked for him. He hasn't had a drink in almost 20 years.

but his point is if it's required by law, it should have absolutely nothing to do with "god"

[desflood]

but his point is if it's required by law, it should have absolutely nothing with "god"
He's absolutely correct. I'm not going to disagree with that point; just saying that it can help him despite the conflicting beliefs. You be tolerant of them, they'll be tolerant of you, everybody wins.

[clambake]

just tell them you're only interested in the "water to wine" part.

[baseline bum]

8tPNgHrIkgo

5uwx2P5LJgk

7PjpOsE3xoY

[Blake]

just tell them you're only interested in the "water to wine" part.

:lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

The OP's lucky. It just left that poor bastard Thomas Dolby blind.

[ALVAREZ6]

cool video. Seriously.

Im being told by the courts to attend NA/AA meetings and while I will not deny that I drink alot (I seriously do not do drugs at all, at least since highschool), there are some SERIOUS religious undertones to these meetings and it makes me REALLY uncomfortable being a non-believer and having to participate or go to jail.

Alcohol is a drug.

I'm aware that you are probably aware of this, but I'm pointing it out anyway because people need to stop thinking about it as "drugs and alcohol". Society at large has this perception than alcohol is something different than drugs, giving the connotation that alcohol isn't as "bad" as the illegal drugs, which is simply completely false if we take 2 seconds to think about it. Unfortunately, the percentage of our population that does take the time to truly think about things is very low, and this perpetuates the myth.

Those that have caught on by now shouldn't be surprised in this post coming from me, and yes I am indirectly saying that weed, a simple plant that gets you high and who's negative effects are nothing compared to alcohol, being illegal is completely hypocritical. Because of our society's retarded perceptions. If MOST of us stopped and thought about things more often, you know...used our brains, we wouldn't have carried this retarded perception for so many years. And weed would be legal. Because currently, as a society we are indirectly saying: Yeah sure, you can drink once you're 21, it's fine, even though alcohol is much more disastrous on a personal level and societal level, you may kill yourself and or others due when drunk, just don't smoke that reefer, even though smoking refer is better for you (or, less bad) and us as a whole compared to drinking alcohol.

So as a side comment on this thread, everybody, please!; Cut it out with the "drugs and alcohol" D.A.R.E. motto bullshit. All of us here that drink need to accept we are indulging in drugs! Don't worry about it, it's human!

[Gutter92]

atheist since I was 16

there is no God, with or without religion. If we are smart enough to reject religion, why would you consider a concept, that being a "God", that CAME from religion in the first place?


+1

Where is the proof of "God"? I mean, legit proof. Everything else in the world has to be proved, not disproved, why should "God" be different?

[Drachen]

but his point is if it's required by law, it should have absolutely nothing to do with "god"

I can tell you how they will get around that. Because it is a god of your understanding, a higher power, which doesn't have to be a deity, etc. A common quote used in those meetings is "if you don't believe in god, just choose a higher power, it could be the handle on the door because when you are drunk on the floor it is higher than you"

Cheesy - HEEEELLLL yes! In fact if you go long enough, you will get real tired of the AA-isms. The point is that belief in God is not required for the meetings. I was also court ordered to go there, and while it didn't do anything to bolster my beliefs in god or anything like that, it still did me some good since I met a lot of cool people, and it kinda gave me the chance to step back from what was my life and reflect on how stupid I was being. After about a year and a half (or so) I quit going and I drink too, but not in the same way, I still hang out with some of them too. Plus I can't really knock something that has helped so many people. Could they be helped another way? Maybe, but who cares if it is working, its working.

I entered an atheist and left an atheist, but I have never been militant about my atheism and don't mind being around people who are not (I hate when people are militant about their religion, so why would I be the same).

If you want a relatively cool place to go to, go to La Hacienda on Wurzbach between Fredricksburg and I10 (in the office park right after Tiffanys Cabaret). There are mostly CA meetings there and they are usually more lively and interesting with cooler people. They were never pushy with the religion aspect. Will you hear religious stuff? Yeah, but that is when others are talking about their experiences. As long as you arent so insecure that the mere mention of religion in your presence causes you discomfort, you should be fine. I haven't been since 2004 or 5, so I am sure that some of the people I knew there are gone, but there are probably still some of the "old guard" there.

BTW - I am in no way assuming you need this or want this. I don't know that I needed it, but I found it was a good way to step back and force myself to assess things. The point of this post was more to tell you to try to find your niche while you have to be there and try to enjoy yourself.

[monosylab1k]

Alcohol is a drug.

I'm aware that you are probably aware of this, but I'm pointing it out anyway because people need to stop thinking about it as "drugs and alcohol". Society at large has this perception than alcohol is something different than drugs, giving the connotation that alcohol isn't as "bad" as the illegal drugs, which is simply completely false if we take 2 seconds to think about it. Unfortunately, the percentage of our population that does take the time to truly think about things is very low, and this perpetuates the myth.

Those that have caught on by now shouldn't be surprised in this post coming from me, and yes I am indirectly saying that weed, a simple plant that gets you high and who's negative effects are nothing compared to alcohol, being illegal is completely hypocritical. Because of our society's retarded perceptions. If MOST of us stopped and thought about things more often, you know...used our brains, we wouldn't have carried this retarded perception for so many years. And weed would be legal. Because currently, as a society we are indirectly saying: Yeah sure, you can drink once you're 21, it's fine, even though alcohol is much more disastrous on a personal level and societal level, you may kill yourself and or others due when drunk, just don't smoke that reefer, even though smoking refer is better for you (or, less bad) and us as a whole compared to drinking alcohol.

So as a side comment on this thread, everybody, please!; Cut it out with the "drugs and alcohol" D.A.R.E. motto bullshit. All of us here that drink need to accept we are indulging in drugs! Don't worry about it, it's human!

So me sitting on the couch watching the game with a beer is worse than me shooting up heroin in a dirty bathroom?

[Blake]

So me sitting on the couch watching the game with a beer is worse than me shooting up heroin in a dirty bathroom?

how dirty is the couch

[z0sa]

just tell them you're only interested in the "water to wine" part.

I lol'd

[bus driver]

4j5h9IgwYgs

[ALVAREZ6]

So me sitting on the couch watching the game with a beer is worse than me shooting up heroin in a dirty bathroom?

Exactly what about my post made you make such an inference?

All I said was that alcohol is a drug, and weed is a far less disastrous drug than alcohol. So why do you assume I said or believe having a beer is worse than doing heroin? You can even infer from my post that I believe alcohol is more dangerous than many drugs, and that'd be fine because that's what I do believe. But not all drugs. Clearly not heroin, that's comparing apples to oranges on more than one level, because also having a beer or two is the smallest of "dosages"...can't even compare to shooting up heroin. Having a beer is like taking one puff on a blunt.

Don't be a jackass.

[ALVAREZ6]

So me sitting on the couch watching the game with a beer is worse than me shooting up heroin in a dirty bathroom?

You can rephrase this though:

Getting piss drunk at bars and parties is worse for you and society than getting really high from smoking marijuana in the long run, assuming the same usage rate for both scenarios to keep things consistent.

[romad_20]

r6w2M50_Xdk

Beautiful tbh. :cry

Great video :toast

[IronMaxipad]

Great video :toast

:toast

[Dr. Gonzo]

cool video. Seriously.

Im being told by the courts to attend NA/AA meetings and while I will not deny that I drink alot (I seriously do not do drugs at all, at least since highschool), there are some SERIOUS religious undertones to these meetings and it makes me REALLY uncomfortable being a non-believer and having to participate or go to jail.

I would GLADLY go to a meeting that is similar but without all the "spiritual" stuff being forced upon me. As it stands now, I dont know of an alternative that would appease the court, therefore I am talking to my attourney that if the courts cannot provide me with a non-spiritual alternative it is against my constitutional rights to force me to go.

Im not looking for a "get out of jail free" card. I simply want something without the MAJOR religious undertones that permiate NA/AA meetings. I shouldnt be forced to accept a "higher power" if I dont believe in one.

Im sure people are going to jump on this like flies on shit but just look at it from my point of view for a minute before you respond.

Look up the 12 steps of AA/NA, specifically step 3, and tell me how that pertains to an "athiest" and how it does not affect their religious beliefs in accordance to the constitution.

AA/NA is anonymous s by default... The courts cant call and ask if Im showing up. I could easily get my freaking bartender to sign his name on the sheet they give me and it wont matter one lick. Its ANONYMOUS!! they dont keep records of who shows up.

I dont want to do that.

but I also dont want to be forced into meetings where its a requirement to "believe in a higher power, however you might believe in that higher power".

I DONT believe in a higher power..... Where does that leave me?

seriously... read this as if you did not believe in any higher power, and tell me how Im supposed to react.

These are the 12 steps of AA/NA

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7.Humbly asked Him (God) to remove our shortcomings.

8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

When I went into a 12-step program, I had trouble with the whole "God" thing as well. Two years and almost 3 months into my sobriety, I realized that I don't believe in God as many people see it. I believe in a higher power which is not a creator, all-knowing entity or any religious icon. My higher power is simply energy. I believe that energy fills entire universe and everything that exists. This energy never ever dies so I put my belief into that. I lean on that energy to keep me sober. As long as I believe in energy I too believe that it can give me the strength to stay clean.

That being said, when I did start my recovery I decided to take a leap and change some of the beliefs I had during my drinking in order to help me with my drinking problem. My way of thinking was wrong so I had to correct it. I swallowed some pride and decided to give the higher power thing an honest chance. So far it has worked. I can't really say if it will work forever, or even tomorrow, but it is working right now and for today it will keep me sober.

[DisAsTerBot]

When I went into a 12-step program, I had trouble with the whole "God" thing as well. Two years and almost 3 months into my sobriety, I realized that I don't believe in God as many people see it. I believe in a higher power which is not a creator, all-knowing entity or any religious icon. My higher power is simply energy. I believe that energy fills entire universe and everything that exists. This energy never ever dies so I put my belief into that. I lean on that energy to keep me sober. As long as I believe in energy I too believe that it can give me the strength to stay clean.

That being said, when I did start my recovery I decided to take a leap and change some of the beliefs I had during my drinking in order to help me with my drinking problem. My way of thinking was wrong so I had to correct it. I swallowed some pride and decided to give the higher power thing an honest chance. So far it has worked. I can't really say if it will work forever, or even tomorrow, but it is working right now and for today it will keep me sober.

the force is strong in this one...

[The Reckoning]

When I went into a 12-step program, I had trouble with the whole "God" thing as well. Two years and almost 3 months into my sobriety, I realized that I don't believe in God as many people see it. I believe in a higher power which is not a creator, all-knowing entity or any religious icon. My higher power is simply energy. I believe that energy fills entire universe and everything that exists. This energy never ever dies so I put my belief into that. I lean on that energy to keep me sober. As long as I believe in energy I too believe that it can give me the strength to stay clean.




same here. except instead of energy my higher power is interaction. nothing could have existed without some sort of interaction.

[DarkReign]

I thought that was a pretty bad-ass video. I have no gift for literation, but the beauty and awe I experience observing the universe inspires a sort of...disconnect from myself.

Tough to explain. I get excited, unlike any excitement I experience otherwise, this giddy, playful, inspirational exuberance that doesnt happen at any other time.

I think its because so much is unknown, that makes it new and virgin. Whereas religion takes all the fun out of discovery in the most simplistic, rudimentary and (tbh) unrewarding fashion possible.

Nothing, to me, spells hopelessness and isolation quite like "God did it".

OT: Bought a telescope today. Fucking clouds are killing my buzz.

[phyzik]

When I went into a 12-step program, I had trouble with the whole "God" thing as well. Two years and almost 3 months into my sobriety, I realized that I don't believe in God as many people see it. I believe in a higher power which is not a creator, all-knowing entity or any religious icon. My higher power is simply energy. I believe that energy fills entire universe and everything that exists. This energy never ever dies so I put my belief into that. I lean on that energy to keep me sober. As long as I believe in energy I too believe that it can give me the strength to stay clean.

That being said, when I did start my recovery I decided to take a leap and change some of the beliefs I had during my drinking in order to help me with my drinking problem. My way of thinking was wrong so I had to correct it. I swallowed some pride and decided to give the higher power thing an honest chance. So far it has worked. I can't really say if it will work forever, or even tomorrow, but it is working right now and for today it will keep me sober.


So you didnt have to do the whole "Our father, who art in heaven" prayer at the end of every meeting?

I dont believe in a higher power at all.

Regardless to say, my attourney is asking some P.O. friends of his if they know of an alternative, if not he is approaching the judge to see what they say.

Anyway, I wont deny that AA is effective... Besides all the religious stuff, hearing other peoples stories and being able to relate to them IS pretty liberating. I will continue to go until I hear back from my attourney. I've been advised to keep my mouth shut in the group in regards to my beliefs so thats what Im doing.

The thing thats helping me most though is outpatient therapy that I have to do every wednesday. The guy that runs that group, and the group themselves, are pretty fucking cool. Its run by this guy named Ray Miller. A former alchoholic and cocain addict.

[xellos88330]

I like the video. He is what I would call a "true" atheist.

1. He didn't say that "God doesn't exist!"
2. He was open to the possibility of a higher power.
3. He understands that one of the fundamentals of science is exploring EVERY possibility. Is God possible? Can God exist? Sure he can, but he would like to see how.

Atheism isn't just rejecting the idea that God can exist. It is embracing the fact that he could. Without the question or search for God, a lot of science and technology wouldn't exist. God is the ultimate question which in turn grants us all the power to speculate and advance our minds and capablities.

[xellos88330]

Here is something that could help you Phyzik.

If you believe that you can get over the alcoholism, then you are the one that holds the higher power. Faith doesn't just have to do with hocus pocus, but with what you can accomplish with the proper application of what you believe you are capable of.

Be your own higher power.

[phyzik]

Here is something that could help you Phyzik.

If you believe that you can get over the alcoholism, then you are the one that holds the higher power. Faith doesn't just have to do with hocus pocus, but with what you can accomplish with the proper application of what you believe you are capable of.

Be your own higher power.

Thats pretty much the approach I've been taking, along with help from friends.

For example, on the weekends, I go with a friend downtown and ride bycicles almost 20 miles round trip. Im suprised Im able to still do that much.

I used to bike ride ALOT, offroad mostly, and I would like to get back into that physical shape. My physical appearance isnt much different from what I looked like back then.... I dont have a beer gut or anything (ok, maybe a slight one :lol).... its just the conditioning really.

[xellos88330]

Thats pretty much the approach I've been taking, along with help from friends.

For example, on the weekends, I go with a friend downtown and ride bycicles almost 20 miles round trip. Im suprised Im able to still do that much.

I used to bike ride ALOT, offroad mostly, and I would like to get back into that physical shape. My physical appearance isnt much different from what I looked like back then.... I dont have a beer gut or anything (ok, maybe a slight one :lol).... its just the conditioning really.

Physical activity is paramount in recovery.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Good luck to you man, but it looks like you won't need much of it. :toast