Manu the closer & other Spurs roles

[analyzed]

It's coming clearer, that Manu is our closer and go to guy in the stretch. I would be surprise if he dosent lead us in scoring this season at aroung 18 -20 a game.
Tony is becoming more of a quarterback. While RJ is weakside of the ball finisher.
Neal is turning out to be aka the "mircowave" or steve kerr, Don't want to harp on it, but it astonishes me that people thought guys like Gee, Gist and Temple would be better than a guy who was a prolific scorer in europe.

Tiago reminds me of a young Brad Miller, with his smarts and defense. drawing 3 charges in like 15 minutes is huge, that's like 3 , threes . ( you stop a player from scoring two , plus you get a 50 % chance of scoring 2 by causing the turnover ) yet it accounts for nothing on the stat sheets

TD's , Manu's and Dice minutes so far is a concern, I think they are overextended so early in the season. playing about 5 more minutes than they should be. Those extra 10 minutes ( 5 min TD and Dice) should eventually go to Splitter who is playing less than 15 min a game

[HarlemHeat37]

I love the way TP and Manu are balancing their games so far..not that they've ever had a problem doing it, like some people here believe..I'd like to see them both passing up a few more opportunities to get Jefferson some more touches though, they have to keep his confidence high..

I'm not concerned about Duncan and McDyess..their minutes will go down when Splitter's conditioning is good enough, as you said, and also, whether people hate it or not, having Bonner on the floor will help reduce some of their minutes as well..

Hopefully once the Spurs build some chemistry, there will be more blowouts, and less minutes needed for the older guys..

[jestersmash]

I did not like the way Jefferson was given some of "his" possessions. Giving him the ball up top and expecting him to somehow create off the dribble is exactly the wrong way to go about things, and yet the Spurs put him in that position on a couple of possessions.

When the spurs are in a half court set, he needs the opposing team defense to be moving, to be in slight disarray before he catches the ball and drives as a secondary slasher, assuming he's not open for an outside shot from an initial Ginobili/Parker drive.

[Man In Black]

I did not like the way Jefferson was given some of "his" possessions. Giving him the ball up top and expecting him to somehow create off the dribble is exactly the wrong way to go about things, and yet the Spurs put him in that position on a couple of possessions.

When the spurs are in a half court set, he needs the opposing team defense to be moving, to be in slight disarray before he catches the ball and drives as a secondary slasher, assuming he's not open for an outside shot from an initial Ginobili/Parker drive.
I disagree because doing so is saying that the work he did in the summer wasn't enough to offset his old "programming". I don't mind that he tries to create just as long as he realizes he has the option to pass as well. His old ways would have him be a black hole. As a finisher he is solid, as a creator he is less than but so far this season, he's been able to stay a solid finisher and a "passable" creator.

[ALVAREZ6]

It's coming clearer, that Manu is our closer and go to guy in the stretch.

Just now it is???
:spin

[jestersmash]

I disagree because doing so is saying that the work he did in the summer wasn't enough to offset his old "programming". I don't mind that he tries to create just as long as he realizes he has the option to pass as well. His old ways would have him be a black hole. As a finisher he is solid, as a creator he is less than but so far this season, he's been able to stay a solid finisher and a "passable" creator.

I agree, he's "passable" as a creator. He's certainly become a better player in this regard.

That said, I disagree with your suggestion that his work during this summer was primarily involved in increasing his own playmaking abilities off the dribble as the primary creator.

To be brutally honest, I simply don't know what he specifically worked on during the summer. If you listen to him during interviews, you'll notice that he's pretty vague about it - saying that he worked on a lot of "fundamentals" with regards to his game. Pop suggested that the coaching staff worked hard to rectify a few "bad habits" that RJ likely picked up during his stint with Milwaukee. Knowing Pop, I'd wager that he was referring to bad habits on the defensive end of the floor.

Here's my point - thus far this season R.J.'s success hasn't been derived from some markedly improved newfound playmaking ability as the primary, initial driver. This is and always will be Parker and Ginobili's role on this team (with Hill being Pop's preferred heir apparent to Parker - though this is turning out to be a total disaster so far, but that's for another topic), and nothing has changed.

Even when R.J. drives to the basket, it's often as the secondary slasher once Parker or Gino have penetrated. That's where he's been successful at driving and finishing near the basket in the previous 5 games.

Today, he did in fact drive to the basket as the initial defender and finished successfully - once (in addition to driving and dishing out to Gary Neal once, hence why I agreed to call him a "passable" creator)- but this simply is not his game. This is what the Spurs wanted him to do last season far too often, and he floundered far too often because it did not jive with his style or skill set.

R.J. has not succeeded thus far being an initial playmaker. This is simply a fact. He's succeeded thus far shooting with phenomenal efficiency from 3 as the recipient of an inside-out game facilitated by either Ginobili/Parker drives or Duncan post-ups, and by driving hard to the rim as a secondary attacker.

[#2!]

I disagree because doing so is saying that the work he did in the summer wasn't enough to offset his old "programming". I don't mind that he tries to create just as long as he realizes he has the option to pass as well. His old ways would have him be a black hole. As a finisher he is solid, as a creator he is less than but so far this season, he's been able to stay a solid finisher and a "passable" creator.

The goal of the offseason workouts was not too reprogram RJ's game. It was too get him in shape to do what he used to be able to do, and show him how to do it in the Spurs' system. He's been fantastic in his role thus far, and imo it'd be unwise to return to the round peg square hole strategy.

[Cessation]

Its an off game for rj, all the spurs looked kind bored today, in seconf half they took the game under control, when they started trying again.

[jestersmash]

One minor correction - I said that Jefferson drove as the initial playmaker on an assist to Gary Neal (who shot the ball for 3) - I was mistaken, once again Jefferson made this assist as the secondary attacker after Ginobili drove initially. His fourth and final assist came, of course, on that brilliant fastbreak with Tony, so really he only had one single possession where he successfully attacked the rim as an initial slasher and finished - hardly enough to call his playmaking abilities even "passable" to be honest.

He hasn't been successful as the initital driver last season, and he's only been marginally successful as the initial driver this season. It's just not his game.

Watch the recap video on the spurs homepage (http://www.nba.com/spurs/gameday/101108.html) and you'll see several excellent clips of Parker/Ginobili driving initially and then Jefferson coming in as the secondary attacker. You will:

1) get a qualitative feel for why my incessant babble about "primary" versus "secondary" driver even matters

and

2) get to see Jefferson thrive in this role as a secondary slasher

I promise you guys I'm not making this stuff up; I call it as I see it.

[Man In Black]

I disagree with your suggestion that his work during this summer was primarily involved in increasing his own playmaking abilities off the dribble as the primary creator.

I NEVER said that his primary work was just increasing his own playmaking abilities. I'm just saying that his back-to-basics workouts gave him better recognition of what to do, when to do it, and how it should be done. In essence, it gave him more tools to work with than just what he was comfortable with doing from his days in New Jersey and Milwaukee. That work shows, if it didn't, then we'd all still be complaining about how awful signing him is. And...we're not doing that at all.

[analyzed]

agree


I agree, he's "passable" as a creator. He's certainly become a better player in this regard.

That said, I disagree with your suggestion that his work during this summer was primarily involved in increasing his own playmaking abilities off the dribble as the primary creator.

To be brutally honest, I simply don't know what he specifically worked on during the summer. If you listen to him during interviews, you'll notice that he's pretty vague about it - saying that he worked on a lot of "fundamentals" with regards to his game. Pop suggested that the coaching staff worked hard to rectify a few "bad habits" that RJ likely picked up during his stint with Milwaukee. Knowing Pop, I'd wager that he was referring to bad habits on the defensive end of the floor.

Here's my point - thus far this season R.J.'s success hasn't been derived from some markedly improved newfound playmaking ability as the primary, initial driver. This is and always will be Parker and Ginobili's role on this team (with Hill being Pop's preferred heir apparent to Parker - though this is turning out to be a total disaster so far, but that's for another topic), and nothing has changed.

Even when R.J. drives to the basket, it's often as the secondary slasher once Parker or Gino have penetrated. That's where he's been successful at driving and finishing near the basket in the previous 5 games.

Today, he did in fact drive to the basket as the initial defender and finished successfully - once (in addition to driving and dishing out to Gary Neal once, hence why I agreed to call him a "passable" creator)- but this simply is not his game. This is what the Spurs wanted him to do last season far too often, and he floundered far too often because it did not jive with his style or skill set.

R.J. has not succeeded thus far being an initial playmaker. This is simply a fact. He's succeeded thus far shooting with phenomenal efficiency from 3 as the recipient of an inside-out game facilitated by either Ginobili/Parker drives or Duncan post-ups, and by driving hard to the rim as a secondary attacker.

[smeagol]

Manu's been the closer for a while. Where have you been all these years?

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Manu's been the closer for a while. Where have you been all these years?

Um, ditto. Everyone in the building knows who's getting the ball up high when crunch time comes, and they just run a simple high screen for him. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time. (sorry saw a Ron Burgundy rerun the other day)

[hitmanyr2k]

I say it's about time that Ginobili is actually being used like a true SG for a change. I've always thought it was ridiculous that a player of his talent only averaged 12-13 shots a game. He needs to be averaging at least 15-16 shots a game which is where he is now. Hopefully he stays aggressive and keeps letting the shots fly. I'm sure it's by design that he's taking many more outside shots to save his body from the pounding of going in the paint all the time.




TD's , Manu's and Dice minutes so far is a concern, I think they are overextended so early in the season. playing about 5 more minutes than they should be. Those extra 10 minutes ( 5 min TD and Dice) should eventually go to Splitter who is playing less than 15 min a game

I disagree. I've been saying for the last few seasons that Popovich needs to push these guys a bit more. I think the micro-managing of minutes has been in detriment to the players' conditioning over the long haul. Duncan and Ginobili play limited minutes all through the regular season and when playoff time comes it doesn't seem to help. When they have to put in that extra 4-5 minutes of playing time during the postseason I notice they get gassed and I think it's because they haven't been conditioned all year to put in those kind of minutes.

[jag]

Neal is turning out to be aka the "mircowave" or steve kerr, Don't want to harp on it, but it astonishes me that people thought guys like Gee, Gist and Temple would be better than a guy who was a prolific scorer in europe.


While i did like Temple, I was never a huge fan of Gee or Gist, but lets be honest here...no one knew what the Spurs were gonna get out of Neal. Saying otherwise is comical. After the Spurs gave Neal the partially guaranteed contract I had to assume they believed in him. But the Spurs also gave Marcus Haislip(who was an absolute beast overseas) a 1 year guaranteed contract...so there was really no telling what they had in Neal.

[bigfan]

Manu has always been the closer here.

[austN Spur]

Manu's been the closer for a while. Where have you been all these years?
thats what i thought when i read the thread title.

for being early in the season everything we are seeing right now, makes me smile. hope this team continues to get better every month

[pad300]

I disagree. I've been saying for the last few seasons that Popovich needs to push these guys a bit more. I think the micro-managing of minutes has been in detriment to the players' conditioning over the long haul. Duncan and Ginobili play limited minutes all through the regular season and when playoff time comes it doesn't seem to help. When they have to put in that extra 4-5 minutes of playing time during the postseason I notice they get gassed and I think it's because they haven't been conditioned all year to put in those kind of minutes.

I think you have a point here, particularly with regards to getting gassed in the playoffs. However, if I were managing the team, I would try and get the best of both worlds...

How? I would actually try and further reduce game time minutes, even down to 25-30 minutes, particularly for Duncan, Dice and Gino. However, I would try and keep their exercise time on game nights much higher. Going back to the locker room during each quarter and doing sprints on a stationary bike (or other exercise device) for 2 or 3 minutes during each quarter (driving activity levels to 40 + minutes). You don't get injured on a bike (no bumping or stepping on someones foot on a bike, nor do you strain ankles/joints on stops and starts/impacts) - thereby reducing injury risks from time on the court, but keeping stamina high. You could even start Gino and Dice's night on a bike, and have them come back out 4 minutes into the 1st...

In all honesty the policy could be extended to the rest of the team - 40 out of 48 minutes on game nights of working hard. This should result in both a better conditioned team in the playoffs, and everyone getting some game time to get their timing together as a team.

[jestersmash]

I say it's about time that Ginobili is actually being used like a true SG for a change. I've always thought it was ridiculous that a player of his talent only averaged 12-13 shots a game. He needs to be averaging at least 15-16 shots a game which is where he is now. Hopefully he stays aggressive and keeps letting the shots fly. I'm sure it's by design that he's taking many more outside shots to save his body from the pounding of going in the paint all the time.



I disagree. I've been saying for the last few seasons that Popovich needs to push these guys a bit more. I think the micro-managing of minutes has been in detriment to the players' conditioning over the long haul. Duncan and Ginobili play limited minutes all through the regular season and when playoff time comes it doesn't seem to help. When they have to put in that extra 4-5 minutes of playing time during the postseason I notice they get gassed and I think it's because they haven't been conditioned all year to put in those kind of minutes.

That's a very interesting and reasonable hypothesis.

I suppose the million dollar question (or maybe $100 question - how much is the Larry O'Brien championship trophy worth again?) is this -

Does the benefit of both reducing the propensity for injury and reducing the absolute "wear and tear" on a player throughout the regular season by limiting minutes outweigh the cost of potentially diminished conditioning come playoff time?

I don't know man, it's tough to say. It's certainly an open question, though.

[ALVAREZ6]

I think you have a point here, particularly with regards to getting gassed in the playoffs. However, if I were managing the team, I would try and get the best of both worlds...

How? I would actually try and further reduce game time minutes, even down to 25-30 minutes, particularly for Duncan, Dice and Gino. However, I would try and keep their exercise time on game nights much higher. Going back to the locker room during each quarter and doing sprints on a stationary bike (or other exercise device) for 2 or 3 minutes during each quarter (driving activity levels to 40 + minutes). You don't get injured on a bike (no bumping or stepping on someones foot on a bike, nor do you strain ankles/joints on stops and starts/impacts) - thereby reducing injury risks from time on the court, but keeping stamina high. You could even start Gino and Dice's night on a bike, and have them come back out 4 minutes into the 1st...

In all honesty the policy could be extended to the rest of the team - 40 out of 48 minutes on game nights of working hard. This should result in both a better conditioned team in the playoffs, and everyone getting some game time to get their timing together as a team.

I disagree with some of this. Best of both worlds somehow would be good to strive for, but the Spurs need homecourt in the playoffs. Period. I don't think it's enough to just make it as a 7th or 8th seed. Also, your interval of 25-30 mins to me is low, at least your lower bound. I think 28-32 is very reasonable, but 25,26 mins a game from Duncan and Manu and the Spurs will struggle to make the playoffs. The Spurs don't blow teams out as often as they used to, I think it's safe to say it would be tough for them to be successful playing that little time.

Perhaps the playing more minutes thing would work to condition them, who knows, I have no idea, it's an interesting topic. Maybe they could switch off with Manu and Duncan on a week to two week basis for who plays more of the total minutes for the pair. But still, the whole strict time managing thing is sort of hard to do. We obviously don't want the Spurs dropping easy victories in the regular season because they pulled Duncan or Gino to manage their minutes.

It's really tough to decide one way, but I think they should be fine with similar minutes they played last year, and hopefully none of the big 3 has a serious injury this year. I'm not completely sold on managing their minutes strictly. I mean, first things first, you have to make the playoffs. Every year, the trend has been that the Spurs need to try harder to get a good seed. They can't just coast like they used to.

Take a look at the Rockets, for example. They have a strict 24 minute limit for Yao all season, and no back-to-backs. They're also 1-5. Sort of defeats the purpose of limiting, doesn't it?
I have no idea of the exact reasons why the Rockets are losing every game, as I haven't watched a Rockets game yet, but they're eventually gonna have to start playing Yao more, unless they turn it around very soon.

[pad300]

I disagree with some of this. Best of both worlds somehow would be good to strive for, but the Spurs need homecourt in the playoffs. Period. I don't think it's enough to just make it as a 7th or 8th seed. Also, your interval of 25-30 mins to me is low, at least your lower bound. I think 28-32 is very reasonable, but 25,26 mins a game from Duncan and Manu and the Spurs will struggle to make the playoffs. The Spurs don't blow teams out as often as they used to, I think it's safe to say it would be tough for them to be successful playing that little time.



I am not proposing a strict time limit in game ; rather those are average numbers, and a 25-30 minute ball park pretty much fits the established usage - Gino average 28.7 mpg in the regular season last year. Similarly TD at 31.3. What I am proposing is a policy that every night would be a 40 minute night for conditioning, but with normal playing patterns.

The actual game to game minutes would determine the additional aerobic exercise. For example, TD's minutes varied from 41:15 to 13:19 in last year's regular season. In the game he got 41 minutes, he would be doing no extra exercise. Whereas in the game he got 13:19 minutes, he would do 26:40 minutes of sprints on the bike during the game period (to closely simulate the "work" patterns of playoff basketball).

The objective of this is to have him aerobically prepared for the post-season, where he averaged 37.3 MPG (from 43:30 to 23:58), while minimizing overall wear and tear by having a large portion of the aerobic exercise being done in a minimum impact/low physical risk environment (relative to a basketball game).

[ALVAREZ6]

I am not proposing a strict time limit in game ; rather those are average numbers, and a 25-30 minute ball park pretty much fits the established usage - Gino average 28.7 mpg in the regular season last year. Similarly TD at 31.3. What I am proposing is a policy that every night would be a 40 minute night for conditioning, but with normal playing patterns.

The actual game to game minutes would determine the additional aerobic exercise. For example, TD's minutes varied from 41:15 to 13:19 in last year's regular season. In the game he got 41 minutes, he would be doing no extra exercise. Whereas in the game he got 13:19 minutes, he would do 26:40 minutes of sprints on the bike during the game period (to closely simulate the "work" patterns of playoff basketball).

The objective of this is to have him aerobically prepared for the post-season, where he averaged 37.3 MPG (from 43:30 to 23:58), while minimizing overall wear and tear by having a large portion of the aerobic exercise being done in a minimum impact/low physical risk environment (relative to a basketball game).
Right, Manu being at 28 mpg last year and Duncan 31. But 25 is low, it's nit picky but like I said in my first post I think 28-32 is fine for them to average in the season. They'll still be playing more in the playoffs, and I think they can't play too few minutes unless they're content with the 7th or 8th seed.

The aerobic bike idea isn't a bad idea, but for that strategy to be optimal I don't think I'd have them do 40 mins a night. Maybe switch it up, have it slightly lower if it's a nightly/"gamely" thing, or not require them to do it every single game.

[Manufan909]

Take a look at the Rockets, for example. They have a strict 24 minute limit for Yao all season, and no back-to-backs. They're also 1-5. Sort of defeats the purpose of limiting, doesn't it?
I have no idea of the exact reasons why the Rockets are losing every game, as I haven't watched a Rockets game yet, but they're eventually gonna have to start playing Yao more, unless they turn it around very soon.

I haven't followed the Rockets very much this season, but I believe their problem is not being comfortable with Yao playing limited minutes because they have to do a 180 when it comes to pace or play style. They'll only be able to play him more once his doc says it's ok, he put a 25 min time limit on Yao iirc.

Heck, he only had to play 7 minutes or whatever in their one win. Hope they get it together eventually, but not soon enough as to challenge the Spurs for the SW division crown. On that note, the Hornets need to come back to earth.:bang

[hitmanyr2k]

I am not proposing a strict time limit in game ; rather those are average numbers, and a 25-30 minute ball park pretty much fits the established usage - Gino average 28.7 mpg in the regular season last year. Similarly TD at 31.3. What I am proposing is a policy that every night would be a 40 minute night for conditioning, but with normal playing patterns.

The actual game to game minutes would determine the additional aerobic exercise. For example, TD's minutes varied from 41:15 to 13:19 in last year's regular season. In the game he got 41 minutes, he would be doing no extra exercise. Whereas in the game he got 13:19 minutes, he would do 26:40 minutes of sprints on the bike during the game period (to closely simulate the "work" patterns of playoff basketball).

The objective of this is to have him aerobically prepared for the post-season, where he averaged 37.3 MPG (from 43:30 to 23:58), while minimizing overall wear and tear by having a large portion of the aerobic exercise being done in a minimum impact/low physical risk environment (relative to a basketball game).

That sounds like the Dennis Rodman approach lol. At times he would ride the exercise bike before the game, during his stay on the bench, at the half, and after games.

[pad300]

The aerobic bike idea isn't a bad idea, but for that strategy to be optimal I don't think I'd have them do 40 mins a night. Maybe switch it up, have it slightly lower if it's a nightly/"gamely" thing, or not require them to do it every single game.

40 is pretty much maximum supportable playoff minutes... In the military, the quote is "Train the way you want to fight".


That sounds like the Dennis Rodman approach lol. At times he would ride the exercise bike before the game, during his stay on the bench, at the half, and after games.

Rodman had an enviable level of both floor energy, and didn't degenerate physically long-term (as compared to his peers)... He quit holding an NBA job because he was bughouse nuts, not lack of physical ability (which is what gets most players).