Countering the Best Triangle Offense.. Experts' thoughts?

[Spursfanfromafar]

I think all of us Spurs fans know that the regular season is to build momentum, make the new players get to fit the system, understand it and implement in the real season - the Playoffs.

The question I want to know is.. with the current configuration of players.. are the Spurs capable enough of disrupting / overcoming the triangle offense of the Lakers?

Long time Spurs watchers - please.. How has the winning Spurs teams of the past played the Lakers and defeated them.. by overcoming the Triangle in specific.

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALeAu_dBjds&feature=player_embedded#!)actually got me thinking - The Triangle Offense seems nearly flawless if executed with the right personnel and in Kobe, Gasol, Odom and Fisher - the Lakers seem to have their hands full with quality.

What kind of a defensive strategy do good teams adopt to defeat the Triangle? I suspect it would involve a lot of mobility to keep challenging the cuts and easy passes and require all 5 players to be clued in.. in Essence a lot of team defense. But I am not qualified enough to say if the Spurs are built or atleast have the capability to do so.. Your thoughts?

[Cessation]

Lakers lost to the nuggets. Cool!

[Man In Black]

It ain't a triangle if you can get Kobe to turn on his 1 against 5 mode. He did that against Denver. When he starts getting a point a shot, the odds work in the opposition's favor. If it takes 30 shots or so to get 30 points. That's a good thing. If he gets 30 points on 13 shots, your team is usually in trouble.

[Spursfanfromafar]

It ain't a triangle if you can get Kobe to turn on his 1 against 5 mode. He did that against Denver. When he starts getting a point a shot, the odds work in the opposition's favor. If it takes 30 shots or so to get 30 points. That's a good thing. If he gets 30 points on 13 shots, your team is usually in trouble.

But that cuts both ways. If Kobe is motivated, he can fit within the triangle seamlessly and if he is motivated and has a mission, he can either misfire or do what he is capable of doing as a premier shooting guard.

I suppose during those days when the team had Bruce Bowen, they gambled on the latter and Bowen's superior individual defense. We don't have anyone of that order now.. so.. its going to be good team defense. Question is, what kind of strategy was employed in the past to get team defense to dampen the triangle?

[anonoftheinternets]

its not really the triangle offense. Its just the stacked talent on this team. Size + rebounding a huge advantage. they dont go on too many offensive droughts because its easy to buy a bucket on a kobe jumper at anytime. And ever since that first championship odom has been beasting (his confidence issue was resolved). And Finally they have another 7 footer waiting in the wings (bynum). When this taker team wasnt as stacked, like when shaq left, they did not even make the playoffs.

All the systems in the "NBA" work, like the spurs flex offense, rick adelmans motion offense, etc. its just that lakers get a lot of hype coz their offense has been really good imo.

[HarlemHeat37]

The Lakers don't even use the triangle as much as people think..their most unstoppable play continues to be the p&r between Kobe and Gasol, which is used in a variety of different ways..not only are they 2 of the best players in the NBA, they're both great passers, and their 2-man game opens things up for the rest of the team, particularly 3-point attempts for Artest and Fisher..

Like anon said, their size and rebounding is a huge advantage too, probably their biggest advantage..competing with Bynum/Gasol/Odom inside is almost impossible, and they have length in the backcourt with Kobe/Artest..

The Spurs have a few things going their way..so far, the Spurs bench has shown they have a lot of talent, so they can play with the Lakers improved bench, that won't be a problem IMO..

You have to have a player that will make Kobe play defense, and the Spurs have that..Kobe is a really smart help defender that loves to roam on D, so making him guard somebody is crucial..

The Spurs' hopes against LA obviously lie up front..while Gasol is better than Duncan at this point, I'm pretty sure confident that Duncan will at least come close to matching him on both ends..

The problem is the secondary big man..Odom/Bynum will be way too much for the Spurs against Splitter in his first season + McDyess and Blair..Odom is in great shape and Bynum always gives the Spurs trouble..

If everything goes right for the Spurs(health + RJ maintaining a good level + bench players continuing to play well), they would need a Bynum injury to have a legit chance to beat LA IMO..if Bynum is in the lineup, their size is too much..


Oh, and I can't forget to mention the fact that the Spurs/Pop always seem to be scared of the Lakers..

[dunkman]

Only the big 3 and Bonner remain since the 2008 WCF, the Spurs have improved the roster significantly. First it was Hill, the next season it was Jefferson, Dice and Blair, and for this season there are Splitter, Anderson and Neal (Gee and Quinn aren't really part of the rotation).

The Spurs are no longer short handed in talent or length, basically it depends on Pop to figure out the Lakers. He did it once in 2003.

So far, the Spurs play defense sporadically, mostly in the 4-th quarter to built a lead or make a comeback. The offense is great. The bench is good too, despite Manu being starter.

Too bad the Spurs were unable to find the defensive wing player, however Anderson and Neal are better in that aspect than advertised.

[GSH]

Phil Jackson wants people to believe that the triangle is untouchable. It isn't. And if you watch, a lot of plays devolve into Kobe making something up on the fly, or a two man game with Kobe and Gasol.

Specifics? Bump cutters to alter their spacing. Front the forward to deny him the ball. Bitch at the refs until they actually call the rub handoffs that are really illegal screens. (Hard to do with the new technical rule.) Contest the 3's instead of watching passively to see if they make it or not. The specifics are really no mystery.

The triangle is all about spacing. Playing physical to disrupt spacing and passing lanes is the main thing. And hustling like hell to flash out on 3-point shooters is another. The Spurs have the necessary athleticism, and they definitely have a defensive-minded coach. Will the younger players buy in, and will the older players be able to keep up? I guess we'll see.

The triangle really isn't the issue. Kobe Bryant and Pao Gasol are. Both of those guys are tough to deal with man-on-man.

[Solid D]

To beat the Lakers, Triple Post offense and all, the Spurs have typically:
1) made sure they got back in transition (which they do so well). The Lakers thrive on the break
2) trap only periodically. Make quick defensive rotations, otherwise, the triple post spacing will kill you.
3) pressure the dribbler after a made basket, full court, to use clock.
4) shoot lights out
5) get Pau Gasol in foul trouble

Pretty simple

[Solid D]

Fortunately, the Spurs now have Tiago Splitter to run up and down the floor with Gasol. Tim struggles to keep up with Pau on the break sometimes. Tiago on Gasol means the Spurs don't have to rely on Bonner or McDyess.

[GSH]

3) pressure the dribbler after a made basket, full court, to use clock.

5) get Pau Gasol in foul trouble



It would help if we could belly-bump the point, and force him to change directions. But that move appears to be exclusive to Derek Fisher. I hate to bitch about officiating, but it drives me crazy that they keep allowing Fisher to do that. It would be a huge help in defending the triangle. But, like I said, anyone else would foul out in the first half.

Getting Gasol in foul trouble is a good point. I'm hopeful that RJ will be able to take it to Gasol and force some fouls. He's always been very good at drawing whistles. I'd like to see them use that with a purpose, and really work on Gasol. It makes a big difference getting him to the bench. The triangle is great when you have two dominant players on the floor. A lot of people don't know just how freaking good Scotty Pippen was. Without him, or someone of his caliber, that Bulls team wouldn't have dominated like they did.

The Lakers clear out in the middle costantly, and rarely ever get called. (By that I mean that as a guy cuts through the paint, he squares up and just shoves a defender several feet "just passing through".) It's a great way to open up the paint, if you can get by with it. The Lakers consistently get by with it. I think it would pay to flop occasionally, just to call attention to it if nothing else.

[Solid D]

Belly bumping helps on screen/rolls and in a 40 defense ...but if the Lakers are actually running the Triangle offense, belly bumping may not help there. The closer you play your man, the more the spacing is that the triangle gets to work with. The Triangle likes defenders to be 3 feet away or closer and quick ball movement.

[ElNono]

The problem is the secondary big man..Odom/Bynum will be way too much for the Spurs against Splitter in his first season + McDyess and Blair..Odom is in great shape and Bynum always gives the Spurs trouble..

...

Oh, and I can't forget to mention the fact that the Spurs/Pop always seem to be scared of the Lakers..

This, basically.

[GSH]

Belly bumping helps on screen/rolls and in a 40 defense ...but if the Lakers are actually running the Triangle offense, belly bumping may not help there. The closer you play your man, the more the spacing is that the triangle gets to work with. The Triangle likes defenders to be 3 feet away or closer and quick ball movement.

It helps if you can actually move him, or force him to change directions, because it alters his position on the court. You change all the angles for him, and narrow or eliminate passing lanes. That's key for the triangle.

I'm not saying the Spurs could actually do it... just bitching that Fisher can. I watched him do it the other night, and it really pissed me off. Just like the clear-outs. It's a great strategy, if you don't get whistled for it.

[TD 21]

The Lakers don't even use the triangle as much as people think..their most unstoppable play continues to be the p&r between Kobe and Gasol, which is used in a variety of different ways..not only are they 2 of the best players in the NBA, they're both great passers, and their 2-man game opens things up for the rest of the team, particularly 3-point attempts for Artest and Fisher..

Like anon said, their size and rebounding is a huge advantage too, probably their biggest advantage..competing with Bynum/Gasol/Odom inside is almost impossible, and they have length in the backcourt with Kobe/Artest..

The Spurs have a few things going their way..so far, the Spurs bench has shown they have a lot of talent, so they can play with the Lakers improved bench, that won't be a problem IMO..

You have to have a player that will make Kobe play defense, and the Spurs have that..Kobe is a really smart help defender that loves to roam on D, so making him guard somebody is crucial..

The Spurs' hopes against LA obviously lie up front..while Gasol is better than Duncan at this point, I'm pretty sure confident that Duncan will at least come close to matching him on both ends..

The problem is the secondary big man..Odom/Bynum will be way too much for the Spurs against Splitter in his first season + McDyess and Blair..Odom is in great shape and Bynum always gives the Spurs trouble..

If everything goes right for the Spurs(health + RJ maintaining a good level + bench players continuing to play well), they would need a Bynum injury to have a legit chance to beat LA IMO..if Bynum is in the lineup, their size is too much..


Oh, and I can't forget to mention the fact that the Spurs/Pop always seem to be scared of the Lakers..

The biggest problem is the lack of a Bryant defender. Sure, Ginobili/Hill can and will make him work on the other end, but he'll make them work defensively, as well. He'll take both into the post and they'll have to expend a lot of energy guarding him down there. Even if/when he torches them, I'd prefer the Spurs to mostly stay home and not overreact to it. But still, the Spurs can't afford to have a worn out Ginobili come crunch time. Unfortunately, it's probably not avoidable.

Secondary big men is definitely a concern, but I actually think that the Spurs, with the exception of the Celtics, are more equipped than anyone in the league to play the Lakers bigs. Save for Howard, there's not another big in the game besides Duncan capable of essentially negating Gasol. In a short series, if they can get him there relatively fresh, I'm confident he can play him at least close to a draw.

We haven't seen Splitter on Gasol yet (at least in the NBA), but I think between him and McDyess, both should be among the better Gasol defenders in the league.

Blair should never guard Gasol or Odom. Pop needs to find out in the regular season whether he can do something resembling an adequate job on Bynum. Another option is Artest. In this scenario, Jefferson would guard Odom. It's not something to go to for long stretches obviously, but something to consider in spurts.

If all else fails, then the alternative is to either play Bonner spot minutes or (in the probable event that he plays scared against the Lakers) just flat out go to a three big rotation.

I'd have agreed with the Spurs/Pop collectively seemingly being scared of the Lakers until last season. It was only one game, but that Sunday game in L.A. (without Parker...and with Hill leaving midway through), Duncan and Ginobili looked extremely confident en route to leading the Spurs to an impressive victory. Duncan really went at Gasol in the fourth, digging deep in his repertoire to the point where the Lakers actually started aggressively doubling him (and Jackson hates doubling the post).

[ezau]

The biggest problem is the lack of a Bryant defender. Sure, Ginobili/Hill can and will make him work on the other end, but he'll make them work defensively, as well. He'll take both into the post and they'll have to expend a lot of energy guarding him down there. Even if/when he torches them, I'd prefer the Spurs to mostly stay home and not overreact to it. But still, the Spurs can't afford to have a worn out Ginobili come crunch time. Unfortunately, it's probably not avoidable.

Secondary big men is definitely a concern, but I actually think that the Spurs, with the exception of the Celtics, are more equipped than anyone in the league to play the Lakers bigs. Save for Howard, there's not another big in the game besides Duncan capable of essentially negating Gasol. In a short series, if they can get him there relatively fresh, I'm confident he can play him at least close to a draw.

We haven't seen Splitter on Gasol yet (at least in the NBA), but I think between him and McDyess, both should be among the better Gasol defenders in the league.

Blair should never guard Gasol or Odom. Pop needs to find out in the regular season whether he can do something resembling an adequate job on Bynum. Another option is Artest. In this scenario, Jefferson would guard Odom. It's not something to go to for long stretches obviously, but something to consider in spurts.

If all else fails, then the alternative is to either play Bonner spot minutes or (in the probable event that he plays scared against the Lakers) just flat out go to a three big rotation.

I'd have agreed with the Spurs/Pop collectively seemingly being scared of the Lakers until last season. It was only one game, but that Sunday game in L.A. (without Parker...and with Hill leaving midway through), Duncan and Ginobili looked extremely confident en route to leading the Spurs to an impressive victory. Duncan really went at Gasol in the fourth, digging deep in his repertoire to the point where the Lakers actually started aggressively doubling him (and Jackson hates doubling the post).

I remember that game, it was during the time when Ginobili was out of his mind. Duncan too was superb the entire game as he took it against Gasol the entire game.

I'm not sure whether the Spurs are scared of the Lakers or something. Ginobili, Duncan, and Parker are one of the greatest winners of the last decade, so I don't think fear should be an issue that they have to deal with.

I'm pretty confident that we're far more equipped to handle the Lakers this season than in the past.