No Degree, and No Way Back to the Middle

[SPARKY]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/national/class/BLUECOLLAR-FINAL.html?

Class Matters
No Degree, and No Way Back to the Middle

By TIMOTHY EGAN
The New York Times
Published: May 24, 2005

SPOKANE, Wash. - Over the course of his adult life, Jeff Martinelli has married three women and buried one of them, a cancer victim. He had a son and has watched him raise a child of his own. Through it all, one thing was constant: a factory job that was his ticket to the middle class.

It was not until that job disappeared, and he tried to find something - anything - to keep him close to the security of his former life that Mr. Martinelli came to an abrupt realization about the fate of a working man with no college degree in 21st-century America.

He has skills developed operating heavy machinery, laboring over a stew of molten bauxite at Kaiser Aluminum, once one of the best jobs in this city of 200,000. His health is fine. He has no shortage of ambition. But the world has changed for people like Mr. Martinelli.

"For a guy like me, with no college, it's become pretty bleak out there," said Mr. Martinelli, who is 50 and deals with life's curves with a resigned shrug.

His son, Caleb, already knows what it is like out there. Since high school, Caleb has had six jobs, none very promising. Now 28, he may never reach the middle class, he said. But for his father and others of a generation that could count on a comfortable life without a degree, the fall out of the middle class has come as a shock. They had been frozen in another age, a time when Kaiser factory workers could buy new cars, take decent vacations and enjoy full health care benefits.

They have seen factory gates close and not reopen. They have taken retraining classes for jobs that pay half their old wages. And as they hustle around for work, they have been constantly reminded of the one thing that stands out on their résumés: the education that ended with a high school diploma.

It is not just that the American economy has shed six million manufacturing jobs over the last three decades; it is that the market value of those put out of work, people like Jeff Martinelli, has declined considerably over their lifetimes, opening a gap that has left millions of blue-collar workers at the margins of the middle class.

And the changes go beyond the factory floor. Mark McClellan worked his way up from the Kaiser furnaces to management. He did it by taking extra shifts and learning everything he could about the aluminum business.

Still, in 2001, when Kaiser closed, Mr. McClellan discovered that the job market did not value his factory skills nearly as much as it did four years of college. He had the experience, built over a lifetime, but no degree. And for that, he said, he was marked.

He still lives in a grand house in one of the nicest parts of town, and he drives a big white Jeep. But they are a facade.

"I may look middle class," said Mr. McClellan, who is 45, with a square, honest face and a barrel chest. "But I'm not. My boat is sinking fast."

By the time these two Kaiser men were forced out of work, a man in his 50's with a college degree could expect to earn 81 percent more than a man of the same age with just a high school diploma. When they had started work, the gap was only 52 percent. Other studies show different numbers, but the same trend - a big disparity that opened over their lifetimes.

Mr. Martinelli refuses to feel sorry for himself. He has a job in pest control now, killing ants and spiders at people's homes, making barely half the money he made at the Kaiser smelter, where a worker with his experience would make about $60,000 a year in wages and benefits.

"At least I have a job," he said. "Some of the guys I worked with have still not found anything. A couple of guys lost their houses."

Mr. Martinelli and other former factory workers say that, over time, they have come to fear that the fall out of the middle class could be permanent. Their new lives - the frustrating job interviews, the bills that arrive with red warning letters on the outside - are consequences of a decision made at age 18.

The management veteran, Mr. McClellan, was a doctor's son, just out of high school, when he decided he did not need to go much farther than the big factory at the edge of town. He thought about going to college. But when he got on at Kaiser, he felt he had arrived.

His father, a general practitioner now dead, gave him his blessing, even encouraged him in the choice, Mr. McClellan said.

At the time, the decision to skip college was not that unusual, even for a child of the middle class. Despite Mr. McClellan's lack of skills or education beyond the 12th grade, there was good reason to believe that the aluminum factory could get him into middle-class security quicker than a bachelor's degree could, he said.

By 22, he was a group foreman. By 28, a supervisor. By 32, he was in management. Before his 40th birthday, Mr. McClellan hit his earnings peak, making $100,000 with bonuses.

Friends of his, people with college degrees, were not earning close to that, Mr. McClellan said.

"I had a house with a swimming pool, new cars," he said. "My wife never had to work. I was right in the middle of middle-class America and I knew it and I loved it."

If anything, the union man, Mr. Martinelli, appreciated the middle-class life even more, because of the distance he had traveled to get there. He remembers his stomach growling at night as a child, the humiliation of welfare, hauling groceries home through the snow on a little cart because the family had no car.

"I was ashamed," he said.

He was a C student without much of a future, just out of high school, when he got his break: the job on the Kaiser factory floor. Inside, it was long shifts around hot furnaces. Outside, he was a prince of Spokane.

College students worked inside the factory in the summer, and some never went back to school.

"You knew people leaving here for college would sometimes get better jobs, but you had a good job, so it was fine," said Mike Lacy, a close friend of Mr. Martinelli and a co-worker at Kaiser.

The job lasted just short of 30 years. Kaiser, debt-ridden after a series of failed management initiatives and a long strike, closed the plant in 2001 and sold the factory carcass for salvage.

Mr. McClellan has yet to find work, living off his dwindling savings and investments from his years at Kaiser, though he continues with plans to open his own car wash. He pays $900 a month for a basic health insurance policy - vital to keep his wife, Vicky, who has a rare brain disease, alive. He pays an additional $500 a month for her medications. He is both husband and nurse.

"Am I scared just a little bit?" he said. "Yeah, I am."

He has vowed that his son David will never do the kind of second-guessing that he is. Even at 16, David knows what he wants to do: go to college and study medicine. He said his father, whom he has seen struggle to balance the tasks of home nurse with trying to pay the bills, had grown heroic in his eyes.

He said he would not make the same choice his father did 27 years earlier. "There's nothing like the Kaiser plant around here anymore," he said.

Mr. McClellan agrees. He is firm in one conclusion, having risen from the factory floor only to be knocked down: "There is no working up anymore."

[SPARKY]

Left wing nut poster response: This is the Neocon's and Dubya's fault. They sold the American worker's soul to multinational corporations, the Jews, and the Saudis.

Right wing nut poster response: Boys needa pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop whining. What they want, a handout? Shit, people lose their jobs all the time. Shouldn't be hard for them to get one of them investment banking jobs. Maybe they can find something on the internets. If it wasn't for those damn athiestic liberals with all their enviromental regulations those boys would still have jobs.

[JoeChalupa]

It sucks that work experience doesn't count. But Wayland University gives college credits for work experience.

Toyota will make some non-degree people middle-class when they are making 50-60K with no degree.

Many of my HS friends went to work at General Motors and make damn good money.

[MannyIsGod]

San Antonians think Toyta is the reincarnation of Jesus.

The sad fact is that even a college degree isn't a ticket to the middle class anymore. How many people do you know with an undergrad or even a masters trying to find decent work? It's not as bad as it was a few years ago, but it's pretty much a bitch out there.

[scott]

That is the cost of the ever cheapening American education. K-12 doesn't teach you shit? Go to college? College doesn't teach you shit because they had to spend 2 years teaching you the shit you should have learned in high school? Go to grad school? Grad school only teaches you the shit you should have learned in undergrad? Get a PhD? You are a PhD who now knows shit? Tought shit, I guess.

[JoeChalupa]

I only have HS diploma and I'm doing fine. Blaming the school system gets old.

[MannyIsGod]

I only have HS diploma and I'm doing fine. Blaming the school system gets old.
The majority of people with only a diploma aren't doing fine. Ignoring real trends based on the observations of an individual is getting old.

[desflood]

I only have HS diploma and I'm doing fine. Blaming the school system gets old.
And I have only a HS diploma and am struggling. So, what's your point?

[Clandestino]

The majority of people with only a diploma aren't doing fine. Ignoring real trends based on the observations of an individual is getting old.

yeah, because manny knows a majority of them. :rolleyes

[SWC Bonfire]

Like I said in another thread, education is only one factor in how sucessful you are. Your desire to suceed, hard work, people skills, ability to form working relationships, and financial discipline have a lot more to do with it. Sounds like the manager in this article had some of that. But did he have financial discipline? Did he save up a month, three month's, or six month's worth of available money for emergencies/hard times? (Yes, I know, easier said than done. I'm working on getting my cushion back to that level, but I've also had the extra cash to save my ass in the past.)

How many highly sucessful salespeople have advanced degrees? Not many, but they have the right combo of skills and social ability to thrive in their workplace.

[SWC Bonfire]

Kaiser, debt-ridden after a series of failed management initiatives and a long strike, closed the plant in 2001 and sold the factory carcass for salvage.

I missed this the first time. Sounds like they were not completely innocent in their own undoing.

[JoeChalupa]

Like I said in another thread, education is only one factor in how sucessful you are. Your desire to suceed, hard work, people skills, ability to form working relationships, and financial discipline have a lot more to do with it. Sounds like the manager in this article had some of that. But did he have financial discipline? Did he save up a month, three month's, or six month's worth of available money for emergencies/hard times? (Yes, I know, easier said than done. I'm working on getting my cushion back to that level, but I've also had the extra cash to save my ass in the past.)

How many highly sucessful salespeople have advanced degrees? Not many, but they have the right combo of skills and social ability to thrive in their workplace.

That was the point I was trying to make. Good post.

I don't blame anyone or anything for my success or failures but myself.

[JoeChalupa]

And I have only a HS diploma and am struggling. So, what's your point?

That not everyone with only a HS diploma is struggling.
Would I be doing better with a college degree? I would hope so!

And I do know some friends with degrees who are unemployed so what is the point of that?

Success is measured by different ways by different people. I don't judge success by income level or level of education.

[JoeChalupa]

The majority of people with only a diploma aren't doing fine. Ignoring real trends based on the observations of an individual is getting old.

Who said I'm ignoring "real trends"? Assumptions get old too.

[MannyIsGod]

Who said I'm ignoring "real trends"? Assumptions get old too.
What am I assuming? Your statement said that blaming the school system is getting old because you weren't struggling with a diploma. I can pull out individuals who dropped out from high school and are succeeding, but I doubt that is going to convince you to tell your children to drop out.

It's an obvious fact to the vast majority of people who take a look at the schools in this country - and especialy in this state - that they are struggling to produce well educated people. The only way you can not want to put blame for that on the schoolo system is by ignoring the trends.

Yes, anyone can make something out of themselves, Joe. But does that mean you aren't going to have your children get the best education they can?

[MannyIsGod]

yeah, because manny knows a majority of them. :rolleyes
:blah

[MannyIsGod]

Like I said in another thread, education is only one factor in how sucessful you are. Your desire to suceed, hard work, people skills, ability to form working relationships, and financial discipline have a lot more to do with it. Sounds like the manager in this article had some of that. But did he have financial discipline? Did he save up a month, three month's, or six month's worth of available money for emergencies/hard times? (Yes, I know, easier said than done. I'm working on getting my cushion back to that level, but I've also had the extra cash to save my ass in the past.)

How many highly sucessful salespeople have advanced degrees? Not many, but they have the right combo of skills and social ability to thrive in their workplace.
I'm not disputing that there are people with enough drive and determination out there to succeed regardless of what obstacles and difficulties are placed in their way. And I doubt anyone else here who is critical of education will either.

But even with that in mind, it is indisputeable that you can set more people up for success if you have a better system in place. The same people will succeed, but people that would not have otherwise met success will do so as well.

If there is a reason we should not operate on peak efficency, I don't know what it is.

[Clandestino]

manny doesn't believe people are actually accountable for their own actions. he prefers to make excuses for everyone's failures whether it be their educational ability, their inclination to rape, murder, etc...

[desflood]

Now Clan, knock it off and stay on topic please... :p

[MannyIsGod]

manny doesn't believe people are actually accountable for their own actions. he prefers to make excuses for everyone's failures whether it be their educational ability, their inclination to rape, murder, etc...
:blah

[JoeChalupa]

What am I assuming? Your statement said that blaming the school system is getting old because you weren't struggling with a diploma. I can pull out individuals who dropped out from high school and are succeeding, but I doubt that is going to convince you to tell your children to drop out.

It's an obvious fact to the vast majority of people who take a look at the schools in this country - and especialy in this state - that they are struggling to produce well educated people. The only way you can not want to put blame for that on the schoolo system is by ignoring the trends.

Yes, anyone can make something out of themselves, Joe. But does that mean you aren't going to have your children get the best education they can?

Yes it does and I'm involved with my children's education by going over their home work with them. Going to teacher conferences and requesting a teacher conference if I feel my child is struggling, by taking them to museums and watching the news with them.
By telling how much education is the key and pushing college everyday and telling them that the world is theirs but nobody is going to give it to them.

Yes, I know the public school system needs work but too many parents bitch and complain but don't vote, don't go to the school council meetings, don't pay attentkion to their child's progress reports..yada, yada, yada.

That was the point I was trying to make.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes it does and I'm involved with my children's education by going over their home work with them. Going to teacher conferences and requesting a teacher conference if I feel my child is struggling, by taking them to museums and watching the news with them.
By telling how much education is the key and pushing college everyday and telling them that the world is theirs but nobody is going to give it to them.

Yes, I know the public school system needs work but too many parents bitch and complain but don't vote, don't go to the school council meetings, don't pay attentkion to their child's progress reports..yada, yada, yada.

That was the point I was trying to make.
Fair enough Joe. And I agree with you on many of those points. I think parental involvement needs to improve in many situations. But there is much room for improvement to the system.

[SWC Bonfire]

I heard a snippet on the radio this morning about a local school bond election for $399 million, and voter turnout was somewhere around 4,000. (Correct me if I'm wrong on these figures...I can't find a story on it for the "man stabbed/dragged by out of control pedophile cop" stories filling up the headlines, and I don't live in any SA ISD.)

That's almost $100,000.00 per parent who voted. Probably few parents even voted - it was voted down, so a lot of seniors and single people may have voted instead. Pay attention to what goes on in your kid's school and community.

Most people would like for their money to be spent wisely and contribute politively to the upbringing of young students. But the fact is that they don't care enough to do anything about it themselves. I guess the point of this is: spending more money into the system is not the answer; we need people and students who actually care.

Maybe then the 54% of 4000 voters who bothered to show up would have voted the other way.

[JoeChalupa]

Fair enough Joe. And I agree with you on many of those points. I think parental involvement needs to improve in many situations. But there is much room for improvement to the system.

I agree. No child should be left behind....if they are willing to work for it.

[scott]

The key to fixing our education system is not pumping more money into it or making excuses about it. It's the people who think those are the solutions that are the problem.

Understanding the problem and trying to fix it never gets old, in my book.

[Guru of Nothing]

I think I understand the problem(s).

(1) Distractions

(2) Lack of emphasis on fundamentals.

(3) Bad teachers - not all teachers are bad, so put the flamethrowers away.

(4) Bad parents

(5) Very bad administrators.

Salaries aside, these problems cannot be fixed with money.

[Nbadan]

(1) Distractions

Like unfunded or under-funded mandates and a burgeoning level of regulations from the State.


(2) Lack of emphasis on fundamentals.

Thanks to teachers, there has been a re-emphasis in fundamentals in the grade school level. Today, kids must know how to read by the time they leave Kindergarden. The real problems occur in the Middle and High School levels. In Texas, part of that problem is a over-emphasis on sports. While sports can be beneficial to a students development, if we gave equal emphasis to disciplines like Science and Math as we do to sports, there wouldn't be such a big problem with our schools.

Experienced teachers with skills tend to gravitate to district with more resources (ie richer districts), I mean, Who can blame them? It is the American way, right? However, this leaves non-certified, beginning, or leaving teachers teaching the students who generally need the most help.

[SWC Bonfire]

In Texas, part of that problem is a over-emphasis on sports. While sports can be beneficial to a students development, if we gave equal emphasis to disciplines like Science and Math as we do to sports, there wouldn't be such a big problem with our schools.

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.

[MannyIsGod]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.
There are several reasons Sports get the attention they do, and you're being a bit to idealistic about it to call anyone's take on it bullshit. They get a lot of favortism over other activities in schools here that do the same things you mentioned.

Oh, and before you question me, I played several sports in HS.

[travis2]

Yes it does and I'm involved with my children's education by going over their home work with them. Going to teacher conferences and requesting a teacher conference if I feel my child is struggling, by taking them to museums and watching the news with them.
By telling how much education is the key and pushing college everyday and telling them that the world is theirs but nobody is going to give it to them.

Yes, I know the public school system needs work but too many parents bitch and complain but don't vote, don't go to the school council meetings, don't pay attentkion to their child's progress reports..yada, yada, yada.

That was the point I was trying to make.

Yeah, buddy!!

[travis2]

I agree. No child should be left behind....if they are willing to work for it.

Another yeah, buddy!

[travis2]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.

Change "sports" to "extra-curricular activities" and I would agree with you. Not everyone has the athletic skill (even if they have the desire) to compete for a varsity slot.

Extra-curricular activities of all kinds are important. (My kids are band kids...and if you don't think marching band is athletic, you haven't been to band camp lately...or watched practice during marching season) The problem is that sports (and especially football) are seen as the be-all-and-end-all extra-curricular activity, most of the time. Other activities, like band, orchestra, choir, debate, theater arts, etc., get very short shrift. And undeservedly so.

[Jekka]

Change "sports" to "extra-curricular activities" and I would agree with you. Not everyone has the athletic skill (even if they have the desire) to compete for a varsity slot.

Extra-curricular activities of all kinds are important. (My kids are band kids...and if you don't think marching band is athletic, you haven't been to band camp lately...or watched practice during marching season) The problem is that sports (and especially football) are seen as the be-all-and-end-all extra-curricular activity, most of the time. Other activities, like band, orchestra, choir, debate, theater arts, etc., get very short shrift. And undeservedly so.

I completely agree that extra-curricular activities are vital to personal and academic development - and it saddens me that fine arts programs are so unappreciated. Any study will tell you that fine arts help develop all areas - especially math, science, and comprehension and interpretation. Sports however, get the majority of the funding, and programs like marching band, because they perform at sports events.

[travis2]

I completely agree that extra-curricular activities are vital to personal and academic development - but, especially in Texas - you can't really change sports into that category because most other extra-curriculars are amazingly underfunded and unappreciated compared to sports (except things like marching bands that just happen to play at sports events). When fine arts programs are funded as well as sports, THEN I will be willing to change sports into extra-curricular activities.

Ummmmm...I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, Jekka...it seems to me that you and I are actually in violent agreement...

[Jekka]

Ummmmm...I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, Jekka...it seems to me that you and I are actually in violent agreement...

See the edit above. I'm not all here today.

[travis2]

:lol...OK, I see it.

Although marching band isn't funded all that well...a great deal of funding comes from the parents involved, as well as fundraisers.

[Jekka]

:lol...OK, I see it.

Although marching band isn't funded all that well...a great deal of funding comes from the parents involved, as well as fundraisers.

Yes, those extra fundraisers are important, because you're never going to get that much fine arts money from the state. I went to art boot-camp for high school (hspva.org) where we had fine arts classes in our specific discipline for three hours a day in addition to the required state degree plan - and I can tell you that school was the most insane group of over achievers ever. I had a 4.2 GPA out of 5 from taking AP classes and I just missed being in the top half of my class. Fine arts programs encourage young people to be creative problem solvers and to achieve beyond what is expected. A lot of people were surprised that so much of the school's population was like that, but really, the image of the apathetic artist is inaccurate. - arts give you a drive like none other, and it encourages personal growth and discovery to make for better, more empathetic and well-rounded people.

[Nbadan]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

I played sports also, lettered as a sophmore in Football and a junior in basketball. Hell, I even made All-city. Perhaps SWC Bonfire misunderstood my point. Sports can be beneficial, it teaches team-work, self-discipline, and hard-work, but my point was that there is an over-emphasis on sports as opposed to other disciplines that could benefit students more after HS.

[travis2]

Yes, those extra fundraisers are important, because you're never going to get that much fine arts money from the state. I went to art boot-camp for high school (hspva.org) where we had fine arts classes in our specific discipline for three hours a day in addition to the required state degree plan - and I can tell you that school was the most insane group of over achievers ever. I had a 4.2 GPA out of 5 from taking AP classes and I just missed being in the top half of my class. Fine arts programs encourage young people to be creative problem solvers and to achieve beyond what is expected. A lot of people were surprised that so much of the school's population was like that, but really, the image of the apathetic artist is inaccurate. - arts give you a drive like none other, and it encourages personal growth and discovery to make for better, more empathetic and well-rounded people.

My kids (well, one of them...both next year) go to school in an 8-block system. Band "class" is a 2-block class...so it's 90 (or is it 75?) minutes every day. However, during marching season, they have another couple of hours AFTER school, practicing the routine (which gets changes on a near daily basis), adding pieces, stuff like that. Marching band isn't just for football anymore...there's an extensive competition schedule as well.

During concert season, they don't have the structured after school time...but fairly extensive practice is still required (concert bands compete too...not just marching bands).

I completely agree about fine arts feeding into other subjects. Both my kids are AP-track (my younger one is G/T as well).

[Jekka]

My kids (well, one of them...both next year) go to school in an 8-block system. Band "class" is a 2-block class...so it's 90 (or is it 75?) minutes every day. However, during marching season, they have another couple of hours AFTER school, practicing the routine (which gets changes on a near daily basis), adding pieces, stuff like that. Marching band isn't just for football anymore...there's an extensive competition schedule as well.

During concert season, they don't have the structured after school time...but fairly extensive practice is still required (concert bands compete too...not just marching bands).

I completely agree about fine arts feeding into other subjects. Both my kids are AP-track (my younger one is G/T as well).

AP is great for getting out of college classes and adding to your resume, but take this from someone who went through G.T./SIGHTS/AP hell, while you get a great education at schools that have big programs for it, it completely screws up your ranking unless you're at the very top of the top that you're already in - and with Texas' top ten percent rule, I knew a lot of people that had 4.5's and up who didn't get into schools like UT (but DID get into schools like Oberlin and Sarah Lawrence) because people with 3.5's who didn't do things like AP went to schools with lower achievement standards and took up all the spots. I didn't get into UT Austin with a 4.2, advanced fine arts curriculum, and 400+ hours of community service. So, word to the wise, be careful about state schools with the big AP programs - I hope your kids never have that problem though, and may they benefit from my experience.

Edit: Another thing to be careful of with the AP programs is burnout. I know a lot of people who put themselves through too much AP and were exhausted by the time college came around.

[travis2]

AP is great for getting out of college classes and adding to your resume, but take this from someone who went through G.T./SIGHTS/AP hell, while you get a great education at schools that have big programs for it, it completely screws up your ranking unless you're at the very top of the top that you're already in - and with Texas' top ten percent rule, I knew a lot of people that had 4.5's and up who didn't get into schools like UT (but DID get into schools like Oberlin and Sarah Lawrence) because people with 3.5's who didn't do things like AP went to schools with lower achievement standards and took up all the spots. I didn't get into UT Austin with a 4.2, advanced fine arts curriculum, and 400+ hours of community service. So, word to the wise, be careful about state schools with the big AP programs - I hope your kids never have that problem though, and may they benefit from my experience.

Edit: Another thing to be careful of with the AP programs is burnout. I know a lot of people who put themselves through too much AP and were exhausted by the time college came around.

My oldest isn't all that interested in either Austin or CS...looking smaller. And I don't know about the school you went to, but honors/GT/pre-AP/AP courses have a GPA multiplier applied to them. (I think it's 1.2?) So that helps in the GPA/ranking area.

I hear you about burnout...I know the feeling.

[Clandestino]

yeah, in my school if you took honors courses you got a little extra.

[Gatita]

60,000 equals middleclass? You gotta be joking.

[Jekka]

My oldest isn't all that interested in either Austin or CS...looking smaller. And I don't know about the school you went to, but honors/GT/pre-AP/AP courses have a GPA multiplier applied to them. (I think it's 1.2?) So that helps in the GPA/ranking area.

I hear you about burnout...I know the feeling.

When I was in high school, the GPA system was 4.0 for a regular class and 5.0 for an AP/pre-AP class, and it was done on an individual class basis and averaged.

I think burnout is really underrated, too, when it comes to these AP-type programs; it's physically and mentally draining. It's hard to keep up that pace when you're in those programs from even elementary schools in many cases. Those programs are important, but I think there's a minority of kids that get pushed too hard - thus the increase of high school stress and nervous breakdowns.

It's sad though that for the most part there is such a huge divide between regular and AP programs - that being that kids in regular programs often don't know fundamentals when they go to college and have to play catch-up while their peers from AP are testing out of those basic classes before they even get there. The regular curriculum needs to be accelerated.

[travis2]

When I was in high school, the GPA system was 4.0 for a regular class and 5.0 for an AP/pre-AP class, and it was done on an individual class basis and averaged.

I think burnout is really underrated, too, when it comes to these AP-type programs; it's physically and mentally draining. It's hard to keep up that pace when you're in those programs from even elementary schools in many cases. Those programs are important, but I think there's a minority of kids that get pushed too hard - thus the increase of high school stress and nervous breakdowns.

It's sad though that for the most part there is such a huge divide between regular and AP programs - that being that kids in regular programs often don't know fundamentals when they go to college and have to play catch-up while their peers from AP are testing out of those basic classes before they even get there. The regular curriculum needs to be accelerated.

My kids' GPA is on a 100-point system.

Believe me...when we sit down with the kids to go over their schedule choices for the next year, workload is definitely a concern. We keep an eye on it during the year as well. Problem is, sometimes the first sign that the workload is too much is when they hit the wall. (Luckily that hasn't happened)

Don't even get me started on what passes for "regular" classes. Sometimes I think a 1.2 GPA multiplier isn't enough!

[travis2]

60,000 equals middleclass? You gotta be joking.

Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

[Jekka]

My kids' GPA is on a 100-point system.

Believe me...when we sit down with the kids to go over their schedule choices for the next year, workload is definitely a concern. We keep an eye on it during the year as well. Problem is, sometimes the first sign that the workload is too much is when they hit the wall. (Luckily that hasn't happened)

Yeah, walls are pretty hard to bounce back from, you can ask the therapists of several friends who went to both my school and different AP schools than mine. Some people both amaze and disgust me with their abilities to withstand it all though.


Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

And yet after you fill out your FAFSA, the government is going to ask you to contribute something like $20,000 of it. Which is where the swamp of loans come in.

[Clandestino]

i have a bad ass situation. i own a home(well a mortgage), so i filled out a "special situations" sheet stating that i had excessive debt. i get my gi bill, federal grants, academic scholarships and even am offered subsidized loans.. i love it!

[Gatita]

Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

I know what 60k is and it isn't jack. Middleclass my foot.

[MannyIsGod]

60k as a combined income isn't shit these days.

[travis2]

I know what 60k is and it isn't jack. Middleclass my foot.

Ohhhhhh...I misunderstood you. Sorry.

[Clandestino]

regarding burnout. i'm glad my mother told me it wasn't a good idea to go to school right away. she say's too many drop out and have no sense of direction, waste time and money on classes.. i joined the military. she almost flipped bc she didn't mean to take 4 years off... anyway, now that am back in school, i have my head on straight and will complete a degree in 3 years total.

[travis2]

And yet after you fill out your FAFSA, the government is going to ask you to contribute something like $20,000 of it. Which is where the swamp of loans come in.

*fingers in ears*

I can't hear you, lalalalalalalalalala....

[Gatita]

I haven't gotten a single student loan. I have learned from my boyfriend's on going plight. You get screwed with them.

[Jekka]

I haven't gotten a single student loan. I have learned from my boyfriend's on going plight. You get screwed with them.

Yeah, but depending on your personal situation, loans might be necessary. What if you want a smaller school with more personal attention? Or what if you don't want to work while going to school because you want to be able to focus on school more without fear of the burnout? All that costs a lot of money.

[Clandestino]

or if you qualify for subsidized loans, take them and invest them in safe investments! make money off the govs money...

[MannyIsGod]

I haven't gotten a single student loan. I have learned from my boyfriend's on going plight. You get screwed with them.
I haven't gotten any yet either, but I guarntee you there is no way I'm getting through law school without them.

[SWC Bonfire]

$60,000 is a fair amount of money in some portions of this state. If you have a family, not so much, but still DEFINATELY not lower class. When your house & postage stamp lot doesn't cost over $250k, it goes a lot farther. The cost of living varies a lot, especially if you have lifestyle issues (such as spending more than you make on crap that won't appreciate in value).

Man, I got ripped on the sports thing. I still believe that sports are an integral part of what made me and most of my friends what we are today. And extracurricular activities of all kinds are important. My sister wasn't an athlete, but she did everything else. But NO ONE ever complains that "they're spending too much money on band" when they ship 3 busloads of band members, instructors, and thousands of dollars worth of instruments to an out of town football game (hey, wow, did sports create yet another extra-curricular activity?) or band contest.

My point is that sports (mainly football) get beat up because everyone wants what they are interested in to be funded, and sports get the most funding because they are the oldest and most popular of the extracurricular activities in most schools. If you think that schools should focus only on academics and strictly academic-related extra-curricular activities, I invite you to strike up a stimulating conversation at your local university's Electrical Engineering department. (That's an unfair generalization, but you get my point.)

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.

[travis2]

$60,000 is a fair amount of money in some portions of this state. If you have a family, not so much, but still DEFINATELY not lower class. When your house & postage stamp lot doesn't cost over $250k, it goes a lot farther. The cost of living varies a lot, especially if you have lifestyle issues (such as spending more than you make on crap that won't appreciate in value).

Man, I got ripped on the sports thing. I still believe that sports are an integral part of what made me and most of my friends what we are today. And extracurricular activities of all kinds are important. My sister wasn't an athlete, but she did everything else. But NO ONE ever complains that "they're spending too much money on band" when they ship 3 busloads of band members, instructors, and thousands of dollars worth of instruments to an out of town football game (hey, wow, did sports create yet another extra-curricular activity?) or band contest.

My point is that sports (mainly football) get beat up because everyone wants what they are interested in to be funded, and sports get the most funding because they are the oldest and most popular of the extracurricular activities in most schools. If you think that schools should focus only on academics and strictly academic-related extra-curricular activities, I invite you to strike up a stimulating conversation at your local university's Electrical Engineering department. (That's an unfair generalization, but you get my point.)

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.

I don't know what district you're talking about...but the only costs involved in "shipping" a band to an out-of-town game are paying the bus drivers and upkeep on the school buses. The instruments that don't get carried on the buses by the kids get shipped via some sort of moving vehicle...U-Haul, 24-foot, trailer, whatever...and that isn't paid for by the district. Upkeep and transport costs are borne by the individual band booster organization. "Crew" members are volunteer parents (I should know...I am one).

And I never said extra-curricular activities should be strictly academic. What I did say was funding for academic-related extra-curricular activities lagged far behind the athletic programs.

[Jekka]

Man, I got ripped on the sports thing. I still believe that sports are an integral part of what made me and most of my friends what we are today. And extracurricular activities of all kinds are important. My sister wasn't an athlete, but she did everything else. But NO ONE ever complains that "they're spending too much money on band" when they ship 3 busloads of band members, instructors, and thousands of dollars worth of instruments to an out of town football game (hey, wow, did sports create yet another extra-curricular activity?) or band contest.

My point is that sports (mainly football) get beat up because everyone wants what they are interested in to be funded, and sports get the most funding because they are the oldest and most popular of the extracurricular activities in most schools. If you think that schools should focus only on academics and strictly academic-related extra-curricular activities, I invite you to strike up a stimulating conversation at your local university's Electrical Engineering department. (That's an unfair generalization, but you get my point.)

Who is saying anything about extracurricular activities that should be academically related only? I don't think anyone wants to boot out football in favor of the Astronomy Club.

The problem is funding allocation, with the majority of it going to sports and sports related activities. There are a lot of students who just aren't that athletically inclined, but very talented in other areas - and you're saying that because other people do not appreciate these other areas as much as going to a football game and gorging on nachos ("unfair generalization, but you get my point") that it's okay for schools to underfund and in many cases terminate these other programs. This line of thinking is why San Antonio's symphony went on hiatus.

[travis2]

What she said.

[Clandestino]

in many schools, the football team actually makes money whereas every other team/group just lose money.

[SWC Bonfire]

Sure, and none of the cost of the football program is supported by booster organizations, ticket sales, etc. Ever check the cost of a tuba vs. a football helmet? And the band, or the track team, or the school graduation never used the football stadium, right? They never got any other use out of it, it was just a monument to the stupidity that is Texas and its high school football.

How is the cost breakdown that you listed any different than the cost to ship the football team? I mean, all we had to pay was the bus driver, right? Hell, we even brought our own equipment on the bus. :lol

Damn band being overfunded for their fancy "trailers". :lol

[MannyIsGod]

To be fair, Football does generate it's own set of revenue in most schools in this state. It also has a lot of excess revenue that goes to other sports.

But by that very token, a lot of money is also spent on Football that could be better spent. Take into account the football stadium that Northside built. That thing is the ire of so much of my hatred because it's so unnesscary. And that was paid for by bond money, not by money generated from HS football games.

Sports never get a bad rap, and they especialy don't get a bad rap in this state. Anyone that tries to make the sports programs in this state a victim is smoking some serious crack and probably got hit with a baseball bat somewhere along the line.

[travis2]

Damn band being overfunded for their fancy "trailers". :lol

Where the f**k did you get that from???

Go back and re-read where I said the funding came from for that...

And oh BTW...the booster organizations don't get district money for that shit.

And you still ignored the points Jekka and I made.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure, and none of the cost of the football program is supported by booster organizations, ticket sales, etc. Ever check the cost of a tuba vs. a football helmet? And the band, or the track team, or the school graduation never used the football stadium, right? They never got any other use out of it, it was just a monument to the stupidity that is Texas and its high school football.

How is the cost breakdown that you listed any different than the cost to ship the football team? I mean, all we had to pay was the bus driver, right? Hell, we even brought our own equipment on the bus. :lol

Damn band being overfunded for their fancy "trailers". :lolI don't know what point you're trying to make, but you're making it rather poorly. If you're trying to make football into a victim, you may want to try Indiana becasue that shit isn't going to fly in Texas.

[SWC Bonfire]

...and you're saying that because other people do not appreciate these other areas as much as going to a football game and gorging on nachos ...that it's okay for schools to underfund and in many cases terminate these other programs. This line of thinking is why San Antonio's symphony went on hiatus.

That is a reach that even my long arms can't make. Because 1.) I like sports, and 2.) I didn't complain that football gets all the money, I now want to shut down all the other activities.

Another reach: what makes you think that all the activities that I enjoyed and remain interested in supporting are sports related? Maybe you should have inserted the "unfair generalization" tag. :lol

BTW, nothing personal Jekka. Its only politics. :tu

(I just got a kick out of the code for the "thumbs up" being t.u. :lol )

[Jekka]

Ever check the cost of a tuba vs. a football helmet?

Heathen, could you be a little more closeminded in thinking about long-term gains and cultural development? We don't remember great civilizations just because of how much land they control, we remember them largely for cultural achievements - when you think of ancient Greece you're probably going to think of the Parthenon and the Olympics and philosophers and epic poems like the Iliad before you think of political accomplishments by leaders like Draco. Culture is what binds a society together and decides how people will choose to live and make their decisions. Right now, the majority of youth culture lives in MTV and comes in the form of "Jackass" and "The Thong Song" - and you're saying that it's okay that fine arts programs are underfunded? That a high culture is overrated? Look at what kids are growing up with today. You have to be willing to some some kind of investment to get a better end-product.

[SWC Bonfire]

Where the f**k did you get that from???

Go back and re-read where I said the funding came from for that...

And oh BTW...the booster organizations don't get district money for that shit.

And you still ignored the points Jekka and I made.

Travis, take it easy, big cat! Humor me a little.

I went to a small school. There wasn't a lot of money to go around. We dealt with it with support of the community. Our booster organizations helped out with the cost. We all turned out pretty good.

Want to make sure that the band/debate team/underwater basketweaving team stick around? Donate your time/money to the cause.

[Gatita]

I all I know is that my viejo gets screwed when it comes to pay. He is a band director and spends a shit load of time at school. I don't see the football coaches afterschool all year round.

[SWC Bonfire]

I call BS on the sports thing and y'all go ape!

Now I'm a heathen. :lol I've been called worse. As long as I get called something three times a day, I'll be doing allright. (That's breakfast, lunch and supper for some of you). :spin

Thin skin. I'm not a troll, I promise.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, some people in here get riled up very quickly; I'm usually one of them.

But when you say this:


My point is that sports (mainly football) get beat up because everyone wants what they are interested in to be funded

We have to question sanity. This is Texas. Saying football gets beat up here is the equivlant of saying Bill Gates needs welfare.

[Gatita]

I haven't gotten any yet either, but I guarntee you there is no way I'm getting through law school without them.

I'll start my dissent to being broke next Jan. when I quit working to go through a nursing program in SA. It will blow.

[Gatita]

Football reigns supreme in Texas. It will always get what it needs and wants in terms of money for its High School program.

[Jekka]

I call BS on the sports thing and y'all go ape!

Now I'm a heathen. :lol I've been called worse. As long as I get called something three times a day, I'll be doing allright. (That's breakfast, lunch and supper for some of you). :spin

Thin skin. I'm not a troll, I promise.

Sure I'll go ape on that :lol. But seriously, it's hard not to see a correlation between overall cultural decline and a lack of arts funding.

[Gatita]

Just shut up and sends us money. :)

[travis2]

Travis, take it easy, big cat! Humor me a little.

I went to a small school. There wasn't a lot of money to go around. We dealt with it with support of the community. Our booster organizations helped out with the cost. We all turned out pretty good.

Want to make sure that the band/debate team/underwater basketweaving team stick around? Donate your time/money to the cause.

My kids go to a big school. And as far as non-football programs go, there still isn't a lot of money to go around. We also deal with it with the support of the community. Luckily we have a well-established booster organization.

And once again, read what I post. I already stated I donate my time...and yes, I donate money as well.

[Gatita]

I donate money as well.

Make the check out to....

[travis2]

Make the check out to....

Ha ha! Don't look at me...I'm in line right behind you! :lol

[Jekka]

My kids go to a big school. And as far as non-football programs go, there still isn't a lot of money to go around. We also deal with it with the support of the community. Luckily we have a well-established booster organization.

And once again, read what I post. I already stated I donate my time...and yes, I donate money as well.

The only reasons my high school was able to maintain such a high quality arts program is because we didn't have any sports teams except the swim team (which practiced at another high school's pool) and we had some private funding from alumni mostly. It amazes me how much money most schools spend on football programs.

[Clandestino]

I all I know is that my viejo gets screwed when it comes to pay. He is a band director and spends a shit load of time at school. I don't see the football coaches afterschool all year round.

i don't believe anyone works harder than football coaches of good programs. my coach was there like 24hrs a day during the season. he'd tell his coaches to kiss their wives goodbye during the season.

[Gatita]

The only reasons my high school was able to maintain such a high quality arts program is because we didn't have any sports teams except the swim team (which practiced at another high school's pool) and we had some private funding from alumni mostly. It amazes me how much money most schools spend on football programs.

And what school was that?

[travis2]

I all I know is that my viejo gets screwed when it comes to pay. He is a band director and spends a shit load of time at school. I don't see the football coaches afterschool all year round.

Band directors don't have a life. I agree with you.

[Gatita]

Band directors don't have a life. I agree with you.

Hey fucker he has me. :lol

[travis2]

The only reasons my high school was able to maintain such a high quality arts program is because we didn't have any sports teams except the swim team (which practiced at another high school's pool) and we had some private funding from alumni mostly. It amazes me how much money most schools spend on football programs.

We have both individual and corporate fundraising.

[travis2]

Hey fucker he has me. :lol

Yeah, but during the school year do you have him? :lol

[SWC Bonfire]

I hear a lot of complaining about football being overfunded because I know a lot of teachers. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Gatita, your Pops is doing God's work. I had coaches that would do the same, and they didn't only coach only one sport, either!

BTW, you don't have to be athleticly gifted to try a sport, esp. at a smaller school. You just have to try. I still really respect a couple of guys from HS who wouldn't quit, even if they weren't any good.

Travis, if you'd be kind to point out what you're talking about, I'll be glad to comment, but it's not like I'm gonna change anybody's mind, anyway.

If you'll excuse me & since I only went to a little heathen school, I think I'll go become an out-of-work factory worker and dream of making the middle class... :lol

[Gatita]

Yeah, but during the school year do you have him? :lol

Yes, considering that we live together. But, I didn't get what your question was implying.

[Jekka]

And what school was that?

It's in Houston - The High School for the Performing and Visual Arts - hspva.org. I would argue that their plan to expand and accept more students is going to decrease individual student funding and raise the cost of going there (we paid a small fee every year - $200 for me in the Visual Art department to provide some of the materials, like photo chemicals and tools) and lead to a weaker reputation (going to HSPVA gives you pretty much an in with most art schools, at least in the visual arts department - and we always have at least finalists in the national ARTS competition every year) - but as it is now, it's a great arts program, and if people want to participate in sports they can do so at their zoned school (HSPVA is entirely magnet, you have to audition to get in and re-audition every year to stay in).

[travis2]

I hear a lot of complaining about football being overfunded because I know a lot of teachers. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Gatita, your Pops is doing God's work. I had coaches that would do the same, and they didn't only coach only one sport, either!

BTW, you don't have to be athleticly gifted to try a sport, esp. at a smaller school. You just have to try. I still really respect a couple of guys from HS who wouldn't quit, even if they weren't any good.

Travis, if you'd be kind to point out what you're talking about, I'll be glad to comment, but it's not like I'm gonna change anybody's mind, anyway.

If you'll excuse me & since I only went to a little heathen school, I think I'll go become an out-of-work factory worker and dream of making the middle class... :lol

My posts are in this thread. Read them. Jekka made many of the same points.

You seem to think that everyone needs to try out for a sport and the other programs need to just be cast adrift. Well, not everyone can play a sport, even if they want to. In a small school, it's a lot easier to take all comers. In a large school, not only is there no room to take all comers, the coaches would stage a coup if you tried to force them.

And once again...no one has ever said to stop funding athletic programs. Your little heathen school may have done all right when it came to sports, but it definitely seems deficient when it comes to reading comprehension. You keep setting up really bad straw-man arguments to try to demonize our positions...and we keep knocking them down.

Now, if you want to deal with the facts of our arguments, rather than your own distorted, sports-centric interpretation, then let's talk. But if you want to keep lying about what we're saying, then just go away.

[travis2]

Yes, considering that we live together. But, I didn't get what your question was implying.

I was being humorous. Band directors are very hard workers...the ones that interact with my kids are great, but I'd never want their job.

[Gatita]

I was being humorous. Band directors are very hard workers...the ones that interact with my kids are great, but I'd never want their job.

:)

Someone has to do the dirty work. I was a band geek myself, so I appreciate what he does for a living. I support him 100%. I know it is not always easy and can be fustrating for him at times. That is why he has an ice cold beer waiting for him when he gets home. :)

[travis2]

:)

Someone has to do the dirty work. I was a band geek myself, so I appreciate what he does for a living. I support him 100%. I know it is not always easy and can be fustrating for him at times. That is why he has an ice cold beer waiting for him when he gets home. :)

What level does he teach? MS or HS?

[Gatita]

What level does he teach? MS or HS?

Both. Beginners and all.

[travis2]

Oh wow...where did you say you were from again?

MS is so important...a director directly influences how much the kids continue to enjoy music...good director, lots of kids moving on in their studies...bad director, kids drop out by the time they go to high school.

The high school my kids go to has 3 feeder middle schools...two of which are only partial feeders. The two partial feeders have excellent band programs. The one that feeds 100% has a crappy program. As a result...the HS band gets more recruits from the two partial feeders than from the 100% feeder.

[SWC Bonfire]

then just go away

Well, don't mind if I do. I'll stick to the sports forums. :lol

I'll get my uneducated, country ass out of this esteemed place of being a snooty asshole.:rolleyes

You know, Travis, I didn't learn much, but I did learn that you're supposed to skip over the extraneous bullshit. Sorry if I don't have the reading comprehension. Overinflated Sense of Self Worth So That Everyone Should Scrutinize My Posts Forum.

And cowboy - you might want to stay away from amusement parks, because there's a good chance your life is in the hands of something that I designed - but I'm just a hick.

And thanks to everyone else who could comment without resorting to personal attacks, and keep good humor in context. :spin

[Gatita]

Oh wow...where did you say you were from again?

MS is so important...a director directly influences how much the kids continue to enjoy music...good director, lots of kids moving on in their studies...bad director, kids drop out by the time they go to high school.

The high school my kids go to has 3 feeder middle schools...two of which are only partial feeders. The two partial feeders have excellent band programs. The one that feeds 100% has a crappy program. As a result...the HS band gets more recruits from the two partial feeders than from the 100% feeder.

We are from Harlingen, but he works at Port Isabel. We will be moving up to SA this summer. He has interviewed at several schools, SAISD, Southwest, Devine, NISD, and others.

[Clandestino]

Well, don't mind if I do. I'll stick to the sports forums. :lol

I'll get my uneducated, country ass out of this esteemed place of being a snooty asshole.:rolleyes

You know, Travis, I did learn much, but I did learn that you're supposed to skip over the extraneous bullshit. Sorry if I don't have the reading comprehension.

And cowboy - you might want to stay away from amusement parks, because there's a good chance your life is in the hands of something that I designed - but I'm just a hick.

And thanks to everyone else who could comment without resorting to personal attacks, and keep good humor in context. :spin

the political forum is dangerous!

[travis2]

but I did learn that you're supposed to skip over the extraneous bullshit.

But you obviously didn't learn to differentiate what was extraneous and what was pertinent.

It's not humor when you purposely have to lie about someone's position to try to make your point.

[travis2]

We are from Harlingen, but he works at Port Isabel. We will be moving up to SA this summer. He has interviewed at several schools, SAISD, Southwest, Devine, NISD, and others.

My kids go to NEISD schools. Like any district, they have their problems...but overall I'm pretty pleased.

[Gatita]

We are hoping for the best. I wouldn't want him stressed out with problem children. Like I said someone has to do it, but I know I wouldn't be able to.

[Nbadan]

then just go away

:rolleyes

If everyone did what Travis says, this place would be empty.

We welcome all opinions in this forum which, at times, can make it very explosive in here.

[travis2]

Well, NEISD has some excellent programs. They also have some not-so-good programs.

[Clandestino]

:rolleyes

If everyone did what Travis says, this place would be empty.

We welcome all opinions in this forum which, at times, can make it very explosive in here.

speaking of, you are wanted in the "koran abuse thread"

[travis2]

:rolleyes

If everyone did what Travis says, this place would be empty.

We welcome all opinions in this forum which, at times, can make it very explosive in here.

Opinions I don't mind. Lies I do. But then again, you don't seem to mind lying either, so I'm not surprised.

[JoeChalupa]

This forum welcomes all opinions and points of view.

Speak out!

[word]

Toyota will make some non-degree people middle-class when they are making 50-60K with no degree.


And this is what it's about. Lowering the expectations of the American worker down to that of the 3rd world.

Some....very few. Most will make 30-35k/year. Read up about labor and the auto industry. It used to make big money.

And lets get this straight...it's auto 'assembling' these days. In the day they used to take raw steel at the plant and turn 'em into cars.

They don't do that any more.

Those guys are just thankful they have INSURANCE now. If their lucky, their pension won't get ripped off.

Brave new world out there. Before it's all over the unions will have to come back in force and heads will have to be busted....

Just hope it's not too late. So sad we turned America into a third world country. Toyota put that plant in SA because they know these people will take anything. It's sad really.

AND I will say this. I was talking to a guy from Detroit a few weeks ago that came in to SA to do PM to build this plant. He said a single truck may not roll out of that plant and it could be dead in the water. The truck market is in a slump because of the price of gas and Toyota could write the whole thing off and pack 'em up...

Take that for what it's worth....

[word]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life

Well it teaches a person about 'pecking order' I suppose. Look, one of the things the NBA wants and the players union is against, is raising the minimum age to go to the draft to 20. Why ? Because of all the players out of highschool that enter the draft the vaste majority are not successful in the NBA, as are ALL the players that enter the draft, and they have no education to fall back on. We just hear about the ones who' have 'made it'. Same story is true in all of sports.

Bottom line is sports prepares you to PLAY SPORTS, little else. How does football teach you to write 'C' code. How does basketball teach you about chemistry ? How does baseball teach you about history ? How does soccer teach you about accounting ?

Answer: They don't.

In fact, sports CAN hurt you. It can hurt you if you have unrealistic dreams.

But, we all know that 19 year olds don't have unrealistic dreams, right ?

Those are called 'fantasies'. And many a 17 year old highschool player has 'em. Trust me. I was one of 'em. It's a BIG club.

[SWC Bonfire]

Yes, word, a lot of kids have unrealistic dreams of sports success. Hoop Dreams is a hard movie to watch. But I had good people whom I respected pushing me in ways that sitting in a classroom would never have duplicated. Because contrary to what others on this board may think, I was pretty good in school and never had to try very hard academically.

I never said (well, at least in a non-sarcastic tone :rolleyes) that other activities were over-funded. (The :lol probably should have tipped you people off that I wasn't serious, take a hint.)

If you don't like how your ISD is spending money on sports programs, go to a schoolboard meeting, start a petition, or mobilize like mindsets and GO VOTE IN A BOND ELECTION so that they don't spend your money on a new stadium.

I defend that sports are an important part of an education, an important part you can't learn from a book or classroom.

Intellegence and athletic ability are not mutually exclusive. Others may think so, perhaps to perpetuate their own stereotypes. Keep an open mind, and you might learn something valuable from everything you do, whether it be inside a classroom or not.

[travis2]

I defend that sports are an important part of an education, an important part you can't learn from a book or classroom.


Nobody said they weren't. You seemed to think we said that.

All we said was they weren't the only important non-classroom activity out there.

[SWC Bonfire]

And this is what it's about. Lowering the expectations of the American worker down to that of the 3rd world...Most will make 30-35k/year...

I understand your point about allowing expectations for the American worker to slip, but how can anyone think that 30-35k/year is third world? Have you ever seen some of these third world countries? Makes you glad to be an American when you see someone living off of a yearly salary equivalent to what you make in a week or month.

I have to assume you meant like third world as it relates in the political sense (i.e., not involved in western capitalist/eastern socialist political spheres, like some of the more affluent South Amercian countries) and not the socio-economic sense of dirt poor countries struggling to make a living while fighting civil unrest and/or war.

We are lucky to be in South Texas.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Anyone who thinks 30-35K a year is third world is an idiot.

[SWC Bonfire]

All we said was they weren't the only important non-classroom activity out there.

Understood. I just don't like people using sports as a poster child of what's wrong with the educational system. I am arguing that sports are a good deal of what's right about the educational system - teaching young men and women to be resilient in their lives, work hard, and depend on others and to earn enough respect so that others depend on you.

Go to Scotland, where a lot of sports programs were suspended by the "Nanny State" (their term, not mine) because they singled out kids who were more gifted than others... you'll see a bunch of punk little kids walking the streets after school hours. Before I get blasted as a political heathen, yes, I've seen it with my own eyes, and yes, I've heard the people there complain about it firsthand. I used to work there.

[Jekka]

Anyone who thinks 30-35K a year is third world is an idiot.

I think the point of saying that (because I don't think that 30-35k is third world, it's an exaggeration) is to make a point on how far 30-35k will go there versus here. 30-35k is a fortune in the third world, but here with a couple of kids you're pretty close to the poverty line. Money just doesn't go as far as we'd like it to.

[MannyIsGod]

Understood. I just don't like people using sports as a poster child of what's wrong with the educational system. I am arguing that sports are a good deal of what's right about the educational system - teaching young men and women to be resilient in their lives, work hard, and depend on others and to earn enough respect so that others depend on you.

Go to Scotland, where a lot of sports programs were suspended by the "Nanny State" (their term, not mine) because they singled out kids who were more gifted than others... you'll see a bunch of punk little kids walking the streets after school hours. Before I get blasted as a political heathen, yes, I've seen it with my own eyes, and yes, I've heard the people there complain about it firsthand. I used to work there.
Dude, are you from Texas? Do you realize the love this state has for High School sports? THEY HAVE A FUCKING CABLE HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL REPORT!!!!

I swear, I don't understand why you keep trying to act as though there is this huge groundswell of people complaining about sports, especialy here. It's not happening.

[travis2]

Understood. I just don't like people using sports as a poster child of what's wrong with the educational system. I am arguing that sports are a good deal of what's right about the educational system - teaching young men and women to be resilient in their lives, work hard, and depend on others and to earn enough respect so that others depend on you.

Go to Scotland, where a lot of sports programs were suspended by the "Nanny State" (their term, not mine) because they singled out kids who were more gifted than others... you'll see a bunch of punk little kids walking the streets after school hours. Before I get blasted as a political heathen, yes, I've seen it with my own eyes, and yes, I've heard the people there complain about it firsthand. I used to work there.

Sports is no more and no less a "poster child" for the ills of the educational system as any other component. There are great teachers and sucky teachers. There are great band directors and sucky band directors. And there are great coaches and sucky coaches.

As with anything else, how the activity leaders (coaches, directors, sponsors, whatever) and the parents place the activity within the "big picture" of education determines whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

I think the point of saying that (because I don't think that 30-35k is third world, it's an exaggeration) is to make a point on how far 30-35k will go there versus here. 30-35k is a fortune in the third world, but here with a couple of kids you're pretty close to the poverty line. Money just doesn't go as far as we'd like it to.

Money will go far if spent wisely and I know friends who have kids and make about that much and they are NOT close to the poverty line.
They live within their means and do just fine.
Sure their kids don't have cell phones and they don't drive an SUV but they are from being what I call "poor".

[MannyIsGod]

Money will go far if spent wisely and I know friends who have kids and make about that much and they are NOT close to the poverty line.
They live within their means and do just fine.
Sure their kids don't have cell phones and they don't drive an SUV but they are from being what I call "poor".
Just for shits in giggles, lets take a look at things.

30,000 a year right?

Ok, divided by 12 months, it comes out to 2,500.

take away about 500 a month in taxes, you're left with 2,000.

take away about another 200 a month for medical insurance, down to 1,800.

Gotta live somewhere right? Lets say 800 dollars on the mortgage (oh, and I'm going really fucking low a mortgage here), so we're down to 1000.

Lets say the couple only owns one car, and it's paid off. so, form 1000 we'll take away 100 dollars a month for liability insurance and 100 for gas. down to 800 dollars.

You gotta eat, so we'll say about another 300 ( :lmao yeah right but i'm going to humor this ) a month in groceries.

500 dollars left. Shit, forgot about THE BILLS! 100 for a CPS bill, 50 dollars for a phone bill. We're poor, we're not going to have cable. Down to 350 for the month.

Ok, so I'm down to only 350, and I still haven't accounted for so much shit. Oh, and the stuff I did account for I undercutted immensely.

Yeah, not pretty. Not pretty at ALL.

[SWC Bonfire]

I swear, I don't understand why you keep trying to act as though there is this huge groundswell of people complaining about sports, especialy here. It's not happening.

Read the overly passionate responses of people in this thread. There are also a LOT of people who complain that sports are overfunded and overemphasized. I even hear a PSA incessantly on the on-line stream of Ticket760 that says "what if people cheered as much about algebra as they do for sports?" Because solving series of equations and factoring polynomials isn't very exciting, perhaps? Probably wouldn't have a lot of season ticket holders.

They're advocating spending time with your child's schoolwork, but implicitly, enthusiasm about sports is villified. Not all "sports parents" are the washed-out, never was has beens who push their kids to excell in sports for the vicarious experience, but that stereotype is forming, and is probably held by some people in this forum.

And I realize that a lot of people still enjoy football and HS sports for what they are. I'm a 6th generation Texan.

[SWC Bonfire]

As with anything else, how the activity leaders (coaches, directors, sponsors, whatever) and the parents place the activity within the "big picture" of education determines whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Well said. Perhaps my reading comprehension is improving... :lol

[Jekka]

Read the overly passionate responses of people in this thread. There are also a LOT of people who complain that sports are overfunded and overemphasized.

You act like it's all black and white. We're not complaining that they are funded, we're saying they are OVERfunded. There are other enriching programs that could use some of that money.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Just for shits in giggles, lets take a look at things.

30,000 a year right?

Ok, divided by 12 months, it comes out to 2,500.

take away about 500 a month in taxes, you're left with 2,000.

take away about another 200 a month for medical insurance, down to 1,800.

Gotta live somewhere right? Lets say 800 dollars on the mortgage (oh, and I'm going really fucking low a mortgage here), so we're down to 1000.

Lets say the couple only owns one car, and it's paid off. so, form 1000 we'll take away 100 dollars a month for liability insurance and 100 for gas. down to 800 dollars.

You gotta eat, so we'll say about another 300 ( :lmao yeah right but i'm going to humor this ) a month in groceries.

500 dollars left. Shit, forgot about THE BILLS! 100 for a CPS bill, 50 dollars for a phone bill. We're poor, we're not going to have cable. Down to 350 for the month.

Ok, so I'm down to only 350, and I still haven't accounted for so much shit. Oh, and the stuff I did account for I undercutted immensely.

Yeah, not pretty. Not pretty at ALL.

If you have an $800 month mortgage on 30K a year than you're already living outside your means. What's pretty for you isn't pretty to everyone else.

They may not live on the upper North side but they have a "home", their kids are happy and they are happily married which to me is worth a lot more than making 60K a year. $50 for phone!?
$200 a month for medical insurance!? Are you crazy!? They have insurance from work.
You'd be surprised how many people live well making 30K a year.

[travis2]

Read the overly passionate responses of people in this thread. There are also a LOT of people who complain that sports are overfunded and overemphasized. I even hear a PSA incessantly on the on-line stream of Ticket760 that says "what if people cheered as much about algebra as they do for sports?" Because solving series of equations and factoring polynomials isn't very exciting, perhaps? Probably wouldn't have a lot of season ticket holders.

They're advocating spending time with your child's schoolwork, but implicitly, enthusiasm about sports is villified. Not all "sports parents" are the washed-out, never was has beens who push their kids to excell in sports for the vicarious experience, but that stereotype is forming, and is probably held by some people in this forum.

And I realize that a lot of people still enjoy football and HS sports for what they are. I'm a 6th generation Texan.

And yet...you seem to be implicitly vilifying enthusiasm for schoolwork while you are complaining about implicit vilification of sports enthusiasm. If one is wrong, why not the other?

We can debate whether sports are overfunded or properly funded in relation to other things...but the fact remains that in absolute terms, more tax money goes to athletics than to other things. Sometimes a lot more, sometimes not. And there are complaints from the athletic "community" when they don't get all the money they'd like...and why does it go to all these other things anyway?

Because sports are funded higher in an absolute sense, they do get a higher level of scrutiny. And let's face it...there are some real wackos out there as coaches who draw lots of negative attention...negative attention that is magnified when their supporters actually praise some of the more egregious abuses.

You don't hear much about abuses in band/debate/choir/whatever because there isn't (relatively speaking) nearly as much there to abuse.

[MannyIsGod]

Read the overly passionate responses of people in this thread. There are also a LOT of people who complain that sports are overfunded and overemphasized. I even hear a PSA incessantly on the on-line stream of Ticket760 that says "what if people cheered as much about algebra as they do for sports?" Because solving series of equations and factoring polynomials isn't very exciting, perhaps? Probably wouldn't have a lot of season ticket holders.

They're advocating spending time with your child's schoolwork, but implicitly, enthusiasm about sports is villified. Not all "sports parents" are the washed-out, never was has beens who push their kids to excell in sports for the vicarious experience, but that stereotype is forming, and is probably held by some people in this forum.

And I realize that a lot of people still enjoy football and HS sports for what they are. I'm a 6th generation Texan.
Dude, there are millions of people in this state, there are a lot of people that oppose EVERYTHING. But the support for HS sports is overwhelming and to think otherwise is simply wrong.

[MannyIsGod]

I sell insurance, I work in the insuranc business, and a 200 dollar employee contribution (trust me, it's more whne you pay it alone) for a policy covering the employee, spouse, and 2 children is LOW.

Phone lines cost about 50 dollars month.

800 dollars for a mortgage is LOW. And if you can't buy (and lets face it, at 30k a year, you probably can't) then your renting and paying at least that much for an apartment.

I'm not debating that you can live on 30k a year and support a family on it, my mother did. But to sit there and have you tell me that we lived well above the poverty level is idiocy. We didn't.

[MannyIsGod]

You'd be surprised how many people live well making 30K a year.


Yeah, people, and usualy INDIVIDUALS. Try raising a family on that.

[JoeChalupa]

Yeah, people, and usualy INDIVIDUALS. Try raising a family on that.

I'm not embarrassed to say I've raised my family on that income level.

With kids.

[MannyIsGod]

Why would that be an embarassment?

[JoeChalupa]

I think it's just me.

[SWC Bonfire]

we're saying they are OVERfunded.

I don't want to take anything out of context, but I think you just verified what I'm saying, that a lot of people think sports are overfunded because their favorite program may not be receiving the funding they think it should. If I took that out of context, please feel free to correct me.

They pay more attention to, get more funding for, overemphasize....sports. Always sports. I'm tired of athletics being the reason that somehow Johnny doesn't read, or Johnny doesn't have any culture. :lol

[JoeChalupa]

I don't mind Sports but when it comes to cutting budget costs that is the first place I'd go.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't want to take anything out of context, but I think you just verified what I'm saying, that a lot of people think sports are overfunded because their favorite program may not be receiving the funding they think it should. If I took that out of context, please feel free to correct me.

They pay more attention to, get more funding for, overemphasize....sports. Always sports. I'm tired of athletics being the reason that somehow Johnny doesn't read, or Johnny doesn't have any culture. :lol
Well, you keep on waiting for everyone to believe the way you do. Let me know when you get there.

[Gatita]

You'd be surprised how many people live well making 30K a year.

You gotta be shitting me. 30K, raise a family, and live well? Here comes the papas y huevos everyday for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. :lol

[JoeChalupa]

You gotta be shitting me. 30K, raise a family, and live well? Here comes the papas y huevos everyday for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. :lol

Perhaps this is why I may be embarrased? But I'm not.

And YES, I love papas y huevos for breakfast but sometimes I'll splurge and have carne guisada!!

And like I said, I've raised mine on that and I'm not shitting anyone.

[MannyIsGod]

My mom raised us on that too. But we lived in apartments all the time, there wasn't a lot of stuff to go around, and it was HARD. The moment something goes bad, you're fucked because there are no savings to fall back on.

It's not pretty, and 30k isn't shit now adays.

[JoeChalupa]

Pay yourself first and you'll have savings. Not saying it is easy but for me living well doesn'e mean living "comfortably" or care free.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that money isn't what I measure by. My parents were migrant workers but I NEVER felt poor as a child because of the love I received and a child that received love is the richest of them all.

Okay, I'll get off the Kumbaya chair now.

[Gatita]

I grew up knowing what it was to live life hard. Having lived with my father since I was 13. There was 8 of us total in a 3/2 trailer. Papas y huevos was a staple.

[JoeChalupa]

I grew up knowing what it was to live life hard. Having lived with my father since I was 13. There was 8 of us total in a 3/2 trailer. Papas y huevos was a staple.

But weren't they great tacos!?

[Gatita]

But weren't they great tacos!?

:lol Hey who said we could afford the tortillas?! :lol

[JoeChalupa]

:lol Hey who said we could afford the tortillas?! :lol

D'OH! :lol I hear ya! Sometimes it was just papas con papas.

[Jekka]

I don't want to take anything out of context, but I think you just verified what I'm saying, that a lot of people think sports are overfunded because their favorite program may not be receiving the funding they think it should. If I took that out of context, please feel free to correct me.

They pay more attention to, get more funding for, overemphasize....sports. Always sports. I'm tired of athletics being the reason that somehow Johnny doesn't read, or Johnny doesn't have any culture. :lol

In your world, Culture-dumb-Johnny may be able to pass a pigskin, but he's not going to do much for things like foreign relations - and in an increasingly global-centric society it's important to be able to think outside your culture-box. I think Bush has proved that most nations don't respect the Cowboy Rhetoric.

And as for what you're saying, it's not about someone's favorite program not getting the money it deserves, it's the fact that so much money is going to ONE place when there are other programs that benefit kids that aren't getting funded. Forget about "favorite" programs, I wasn't an orchestra kid, I wasn't on the debate team, etc., but those programs deserve funding just as much as the football team, and yet they so often suffer at football's expense.

[travis2]

I don't want to take anything out of context, but I think you just verified what I'm saying, that a lot of people think sports are overfunded because their favorite program may not be receiving the funding they think it should. If I took that out of context, please feel free to correct me.

They pay more attention to, get more funding for, overemphasize....sports. Always sports. I'm tired of athletics being the reason that somehow Johnny doesn't read, or Johnny doesn't have any culture. :lol

As a point of reference...the NEISD 2004-2005 budget had the following expenditures budgeted against the athletics and fine arts/student activities (they are in the same department) departments

Athletics: $2,224,943 ('03-'04 gate receipts est. $900,000)
Fine Arts/Student Activities: $769,402

[Clandestino]

As a point of reference...the NEISD 2004-2005 budget had the following expenditures budgeted against the athletics and fine arts/student activities (they are in the same department) departments

Athletics: $2,224,943 ('03-'04 gate receipts est. $900,000)
Fine Arts/Student Activities: $769,402

what were the gate receipts for the fine arts?

[Clandestino]

In your world, Culture-dumb-Johnny may be able to pass a pigskin, but he's not going to do much for things like foreign relations - and in an increasingly global-centric society it's important to be able to think outside your culture-box. I think Bush has proved that most nations don't respect the Cowboy Rhetoric.

And as for what you're saying, it's not about someone's favorite program not getting the money it deserves, it's the fact that so much money is going to ONE place when there are other programs that benefit kids that aren't getting funded. Forget about "favorite" programs, I wasn't an orchestra kid, I wasn't on the debate team, etc., but those programs deserve funding just as much as the football team, and yet they so often suffer at football's expense.

i would say a majority of the leaders today have been involved in sports. sports teach you about teamwork and leading. i'm not saying fine arts shouldn't be learned. just that sports are more beneficial that some of you give them credit for.

[travis2]

what were the gate receipts for the fine arts?

There weren't any. Your point?

I included the gate receipts to make a "fairer" comparison.

[Gatita]

sports teach you about teamwork and leading.

And being in fine arts, such as band doesn't?

[JoeChalupa]

I'd much rather have a child pass a final exam than pass a ball.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'd much rather have a child pass a final exam than pass a ball.

I'd rather them do both, and be a well rounded induvidual.

[Gatita]

a well rounded induvidual.

Funny, that is always the line they tell parents.

[JoeChalupa]

I'd rather them do both, and be a well rounded induvidual.

That isn't to say that a person who doesn't play sports is not a well rounded person is it? And I'd drop sports before I dropped learning.

[Gatita]

That isn't to say that a person who doesn't play sports is not a well rounded person is it? And I'd drop sports before I dropped learning.

I always hated how the teachers would pass the football players, even though they had failed the class, during the first semester. Just so they could play ball. :cuss

[JoeChalupa]

I liked the story about that Coach for Colorado is it?
He's the College Golf Coach and he forfeited a championship so his team could make the flight back home because they had finals the next day.
Some parents were upset but I like the fact that he chose education before sports.

[SWC Bonfire]

That isn't to say that a person who doesn't play sports is not a well rounded person is it?

Here's a well-rounded person who doesn't play sports:
http://weightlossninja.com/gallery/fat-man.jpg

:lol

(That's a joke, people.)

[Clandestino]

that is a teacher problem then... people will do what they have to do to get by.

[Gatita]

that is a teacher problem then... people will do what they have to do to get by.

I am sure it happens throughout the state. Come on Texans love their High School football.

:rolleyes

[Clandestino]

I liked the story about that Coach for Colorado is it?
He's the College Golf Coach and he forfeited a championship so his team could make the flight back home because they had finals the next day.
Some parents were upset but I like the fact that he chose education before sports.

he's a dumbass then. schools have policies in place for any school sponsored activity. they could have taken them when they got back. man, i'd never speak to the coach again... it is not everyday you get a shot at a championship in sports or even band competitions...

[Clandestino]

I am sure it happens throughout the state. Come on Texans love their High School football.

:rolleyes

i didn't say it didn't happen. i know it happens.. but i said it was the teacher's fault. a student isn't going to go to the school board and complain he was passed.

[Gatita]

he's a dumbass then. schools have policies in place for any school sponsored activity. they could have taken them when they got back. man, i'd never speak to the coach again... it is not everyday you get a shot at a championship in sports or even band competitions...

I don't think high school rules would necessary apply to a College.

[Gatita]

i didn't say it didn't happen. i know it happens.. but i said it was the teacher's fault. a student isn't going to go to the school board and complain he was passed.

But he would create a shitstorm if he wasn't.

[Clandestino]

I don't think high school rules would necessary apply to a College.

but chalupa mentioned a college team.

[JoeChalupa]

he's a dumbass then. schools have policies in place for any school sponsored activity. they could have taken them when they got back. man, i'd never speak to the coach again... it is not everyday you get a shot at a championship in sports or even band competitions...

It's not everyday that you get a shot at a college degree. If other students have to be in class then why should athletes get an exception?

The Coach had promissed the parents that they would graduate and he kept his word. If he's a dumbass then he's the kind of dumbass that colleges need to hire more of.

[Gatita]

but chalupa mentioned a college team.

I know that. Do you think the professors GAF what you are doing on your own time. I know mine don't.

[SWC Bonfire]

If other students have to be in class then why should athletes get an exception?

Because they are participating in an official school-sanctioned activity and are an outwardly visible representation of their school in the sight of other academic institutions and the general public.

[Clandestino]

It's not everyday that you get a shot at a college degree. If other students have to be in class then why should athletes get an exception?

The Coach had promissed the parents that they would graduate and he kept his word. If he's a dumbass then he's the kind of dumbass that colleges need to hire more of.
but you can get a college degree any day... you can put it off and it will still be there.. not the same for a championship. also, school policies also affect band and other things.. as long as it is school sponsored.

[travis2]

Because they are participating in an official school-sanctioned activity and are an outwardly visible representation of their school in the sight of other academic institutions and the general public.

Without passing judgement on that statement, let me just say that the statement applies equally to non-athletic extra-curricular groups as well.

[JoeChalupa]

Because they are participating in an official school-sanctioned activity and are an outwardly visible representation of their school in the sight of other academic institutions and the general public.

You are correct sir. But I still think he made the right decision because of the impact it had on his players. They all respected and understood his decision. All but 1 of the players had a GPA of 3.2 or higher.

[SWC Bonfire]

Without passing judgement on that statement, let me just say that the statement applies equally to non-athletic extra-curricular groups as well.

That is correct. If you are asked to represent the school, you should receive an exception. I have never heard of someone not being allowed to retake a test or work simply because there was a scheduling conflict with an official school function of any kind.

[travis2]

That is correct. If you are asked to represent the school, you should receive an exception. I have never heard of someone not being allowed to retake a test or work simply because there was a scheduling conflict with an official school function of any kind.

mmmmm...I can't give any specific examples, but I feel confident that (at least in the case on non-athletic groups) there have been edicts passed down such that a group could not participate in a certain (non-UIL) competition because of conflicts...

[Jekka]

mmmmm...I can't give any specific examples, but I feel confident that (at least in the case on non-athletic groups) there have been edicts passed down such that a group could not participate in a certain (non-UIL) competition because of conflicts...

It would make sense to me that you couldn't put off finals for very long - there's a grades deadline for finals that doesn't exist for other random exams throughout the year that are more easy to reschedule. Still sucks for the team that got screwed over, but I can see where finals would be a conflict. It was a poorly scheduled tournament I think.

[JoeChalupa]

It would make sense to me that you couldn't put off finals for very long - there's a grades deadline for finals that doesn't exist for other random exams throughout the year that are more easy to reschedule. Still sucks for the team that got screwed over, but I can see where finals would be a conflict. It was a poorly scheduled tournament I think.

The championship match had to go into extra play and the coach knew that they would not make their flight back and he made a tough call. So I guess the circumstances are what caused this in the first place.