Has Pop de-emphasized defense?

[Jimcs50]

Strange turn this year:

Spurs are allowing more points per game than they themselves had scored per game every season in the TD era. Is this a temporary anomally or are we now a Phoenix Suns lookalike?

Nobody can call Spurs boring any longer, as they are now second leading scoring team in NBA.


The 2005 Finals is rolling over in it's grave.:wow

[ChuckD]

No, David Stern has. Pop's just "making lemonade".

[urunobili]

13-1 bitch

TD just said that's the way the players found to keep Pop with something to talk about. if they allow that many points in April I'll be concerned. Till then, enjoy the ride.

[Mel_13]

Strange turn this year:

Spurs are allowing more points per game than they themselves had scored per game every season in the TD era. Is this a temporary anomally or are we now a Phoenix Suns lookalike?

Nobody can call Spurs boring any longer, as they are now second leading scoring team in NBA.


The 2005 Finals is rolling over in it's grave.:wow

Scoring is up league-wide.

Just a few numbers:

In 2002-03, the total points scored in an average NBA game was 190. This year it's 200.

In 2002-03, four teams averaged 100 ppg or better. This year there are 14 teams averaging in triple digits, with another three at 99.5 or better.

The Spurs are playing at a much faster pace than at anytime in the Pop era. They are playing at the 7th fastest pace in the league. They were never ranked higher than 19th in any Pop-coached year.

Defensive rating estimates points per 100 possessions and thus accounts for pace. By that metric the Spurs currently have the 7th best defense in the NBA.

[Jimcs50]

Well, maybe now the league won't cringe if Spurs are in Finals now.

:lol

[pgardn]

Strange turn this year:

Spurs are allowing more points per game than they themselves had scored per game every season in the TD era. Is this a temporary anomally or are we now a Phoenix Suns lookalike?

Nobody can call Spurs boring any longer, as they are now second leading scoring team in NBA.


The 2005 Finals is rolling over in it's grave.:wow

It is easier to "demphasize" defense when the tools are not there. Duncan is not close to the same defender. Ginobii is definitely slower. And there is no Bowen. Parker has never been a great defender. Blair is way short. Jefferson does not study film like Bowen and even if he did the quick feet and hands are not there... (Splitter please come through for us is the mantra)
We have a team that can drain 3's and possibly the best, fast-finishing PG in the league with huge lanes opening up for him. We have a bald guy from Argentina that is incredibly creative offensively. Seems like this is what we do well. And Duncan is still respected down low. He still gets doubled. When Anderson returns it gets even better if his shot is on. Our talent seems to lie in other areas.
I personally shiver at the thought of our D in the playoffs, but the game is being called much tighter. We look at how Boston and LA played really good D last year but they were way better offensively as well.

[Jimcs50]

Scoring is up league-wide.

Defensive rating estimates points per 100 possessions and thus accounts for pace. By that metric the Spurs currently have the 7th best defense in the NBA.

Nice spin.

Are you in politics?:lol

[lefty]

No Bowen

[Mel_13]

Nice spin.

Are you in politics?:lol

Not spin. Simple facts.

Comparing ppg allowed over a period of years without accounting for changes in average ppg league-wide leaves you comparing apples and oranges.

[ShoogarBear]

Even if the Spurs had 2003 Duncan and 2005 Bowen, they'd still be giving up more points now than they have in the past just because of the league-wide changes in pace.

That said, they clearly aren't the defensive juggernaut of years past, especially on the perimeter. McDyess has improved the interior defense somewhat, but they are no longer an elite defensive team. I think their only chance at eventually becoming one is if Duncan and Splitter develop into a Twin Towers Lite, but I'm beginning to have some doubts about that happening.

[SA210]

We need to pick up our defense big time, for 48 minutes, if we want to make it to the Finals.

[Libri]

Well, maybe now the league won't cringe if Spurs are in Finals now.

:lol

It's the Spurs, the League will cringe no matter what.

[ChumpDumper]

They're still boring; just boring more times per game.

[ohmwrecker]

If you ask the Spurs to a man what they need to improve on, they all say "defense". Somebody is emphasizing it.

[DocDoc]

Strange turn this year:

Spurs are allowing more points per game than they themselves had scored per game every season in the TD era. Is this a temporary anomally or are we now a Phoenix Suns lookalike?

Nobody can call Spurs boring any longer, as they are now second leading scoring team in NBA.


The 2005 Finals is rolling over in it's grave.:wow

I think he is looking ahead t the Lakers in the playoffs.

No team can match the Lakers in size and you aren't going to be able to beat them with just defense.

With the emphasis on fast breaks and a subtle shift on defense toward steals from just a position based defense, I think Pop is adapting to the new rules and looking for ways to beat the Lakers.

Doc

[Venti Quattro]

It's how the Spurs would win this year. They don't exactly have lock-down defenders

[dunkman]

I think he is looking ahead t the Lakers in the playoffs.

No team can match the Lakers in size and you aren't going to be able to beat them with just defense.

With the emphasis on fast breaks and a subtle shift on defense toward steals from just a position based defense, I think Pop is adapting to the new rules and looking for ways to beat the Lakers.

Doc

The Celtics were near of beating them the last season.

[itzsoweezee]

Points per game is a worthless stat. At least back up your argument with relevant statistics.

[ulosturedge]

Finding ways to win regardless of how it comes about builds a lot of character and confidence. So in that regard I am very happy about the way we are playing. It is still frustrating not seeing the Spurs hunker down and get stops when it is needed. The jury is still out on weather that's gonna bite us in the ass later or we improve on it later. But maybe we should be more focused on how we match up with the Lakers this year rather then anything else. We probably still don't match up too well, but it should be better then last year. With the help of Tiago Splitter and the return of the old Tony Parker(mr Laker killer), I think we have much better chances this year.

[Rick Von Braun]

Strange turn this year:

Spurs are allowing more points per game than they themselves had scored per game every season in the TD era. Is this a temporary anomally or are we now a Phoenix Suns lookalike?

Nobody can call Spurs boring any longer, as they are now second leading scoring team in NBA.


The 2005 Finals is rolling over in it's grave.:wow

Jim,

Nice for you to drop by the forum. People were wondering if your wife finally caught you :-)

Regarding the topic, we are not that bad defensively as most people in this board may think. The problem is that you are looking at total points scored/allowed per game, but you are failing to see that the Spurs are playing at a much faster pace.

Currently the Spurs are 7th in the league in pace with 97.8 possessions per game. Just to give a reference of how significant this change has been, the Suns are playing at a slightly lower pace, with 97.3 possessions per game. The fast paced Suns! The Spurs of past were a much lowered pace team, ranked 24th in 05 and 06, 27th in 07, 28th in 08, 27th in 09, and 20th last season. This is by design, since Pop realized that the Spurs were working too much in half court sets over the entire game and he wanted the team to get easier points in transition to be more efficient overall. As a result, a larger number of possessions per game means that opponents will also have a larger number of chances to score, thus the total number of points scored/allowed per game will tend to naturally increase per game.

However, in terms of defensive efficiency, i.e. total number of points per 100 possessions, the Spurs currently ranked 6th in the league, only behind Milwaukee, Orlando, NO, Boston and Miami. To put things in perspective, after the 07 championship when defense started to slip, the Spurs were ranked 4th in 08, 6th in 09, and 9th last year. So if anything, the Spurs are trying to go back to the right path and they are putting some effort to break a historical decline. While there is still work to be done on the defensive end and this assignment is still work in progress, the Spurs are not nearly as bad as most people may believe they are.

The other side of the coin is that the Spurs are scorching hot on the offensive end, scoring at an offensive efficiency of 108.9 points per 100 possessions, trailing only to the Lakers in the entire league.

It is still early in the season, there is still plenty of work to be done, but so far, so good.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Vito Corleone]

The most telling stat as to who the best team in the league is has always been margin of victory. Right now the Spurs are #2 in the league in differential at 9.1 per game. Lakers are #1 at 11.0

That right there should tell you more about where the Spurs are at this moment than any other statistic.

[greyforest]

No, David Stern has. Pop's just "making lemonade".

[Man In Black]

Let's see. I say no. I say Pop is playing it as best as he can with the soldiers he has. We all know that there isn't a Bruce Bowen type player on this team. The team has some good defenders in Manu and Hill and RJ, at least they have some defensive capability but none of those guys are true lockdown defenders. But Pop, still puts them in positions to make plays, to challenge, and to give the Spurs a chance at victory.

With regard to the media. FUCK 4-LETTER. They suck balls. They have a show called the Highlight Express. I taped all the 30 minutes and this is how it broke out NBA wise. The first 4 minutes was dedicated to what's wrong with the Heat. I thought well, since the Spurs won a dozen games in a row, then they'll profile that in the next few minutes. Plus it will take time since the game went into OT to get a good highlight. So, I watched the rest, and I saw Phoenix-Chicago, a game that went into Double-OT highlight package ready. Then I saw lot's and lots of college, than hockey and around minute 28, they showed Cleveland-Milwaukee and Mo William's winning shot, which they then followed with a graphic of 4 games, which included the Spurs victory. They host said, "What's up with the Spurs, they can't be beat as they win tonight."
So for a 30 minute HIGHLIGHT show, for a team that's won 12 straight...we get this from fucking 4-letter. They suck! I saw more coverage for the NYK 5 game streak than a SAS 12 game one. If the ratings tumble because of their piss-poor coverage of teams like San Antonio, well...it's their own damn fault. That shit is self-inflicted. David Stern...you're helping them. So screw you too!
:flag:

[dunkman]

The Spurs are playing to their strengths. Another detail is that the team has to adjust for different rivals in the playoffs.

So far the Spurs play better defense at the end of 3-rd or in 4-th quarter than every other team, hence they are the top team in the standings. Against slower or faster paced teams. Even against the Hornets, the Spurs rallied and one missed 3 in the last seconds could have sent the game to OT.

The Spurs didn't have such winning streaks since the championship seasons, Duncan is tanking the regular season and Splitter has yet to make impact.

[HarlemHeat37]

Defense doesn't win championships, balance wins..you don't have to be an elite defensive team to win a title, if you're an elite offensive team..as long as one of the 2 is there..the Spurs are currently an elite offensive team, which is why it's a good balance..hopefully the balance continues..

Vito Corleone's post about margin of victory is a great point as well, it's usually a good indicator..the other indicator that has been true for the majority of teams in the past is their record vs. teams over .500..

Spurs: #6 def, #2 off
2010 Lakers: #6 def, #11 off
2009 Lakers: #5 def, #3 off
2008 Celtics: #1 def, #10 off
2007 Spurs: #2 def, #3 off

You just have to find a way to have a good balance..the Spurs don't have the defenders to be an elite defensive team, but they're still certainly very good..they do have the weapons to be an elite offensive team though, so they've changed the mentality of the team, which I applaud Pop for..

[Obstructed_View]

I had to check the date of Jim's post, because Pop hasn't really emphasized defense since before Bruce Bowen left. The "shoot when you're open" philosophy took over when there were still players capable of playing lock-down defense. I think the Spurs are just taking advantage of the fact that the offense is clicking; Jefferson's aggression, Manu and Parker's customary strong start combined with the contribution of the shooters.

A good adjustment by Pop this year is giving the green light to the players to take some more chances in the passing lanes. Steals are up, and it's fueling the fast-beak game. Gone are the days where the Spurs could just stay home and rely on the consistency of Bowen and Duncan to shut teams down. It's encouraging that he recognizes the need to adapt, but I'm hoping he recognizes how good the Spurs could be defensively if Duncan had a shot blocker next to him again.

[ChumpDumper]

The "shoot when you're open" philosophy took over when there were still players capable of playing lock-down defense.When was that philosophy not in effect?

[Obstructed_View]

When was that philosophy not in effect?
Back when their focus was on defense and not on shooting three pointers. It developed with the arrival of Finley and Barry, and was fully in place when Pop ruined Mighty Mouse by turning him into an anxious chucker.

[TD 21]

Defense doesn't win championships, balance wins..you don't have to be an elite defensive team to win a title, if you're an elite offensive team..as long as one of the 2 is there..the Spurs are currently an elite offensive team, which is why it's a good balance..hopefully the balance continues..

Vito Corleone's post about margin of victory is a great point as well, it's usually a good indicator..the other indicator that has been true for the majority of teams in the past is their record vs. teams over .500..

Spurs: #6 def, #2 off
2010 Lakers: #6 def, #11 off
2009 Lakers: #5 def, #3 off
2008 Celtics: #1 def, #10 off
2007 Spurs: #2 def, #3 off

You just have to find a way to have a good balance..the Spurs don't have the defenders to be an elite defensive team, but they're still certainly very good..they do have the weapons to be an elite offensive team though, so they've changed the mentality of the team, which I applaud Pop for..

Exactly.

A lot of people think you need to be some lock down outfit for 48 minutes a game to win a championship, because that's what the Spurs used to be, but it's not true.

The Lakers have been one of the better defensive teams in the league the past few seasons, but they're not even close to historically great. They won because they had balance. Offense, defense and rebounding, so they were never overly reliant on any one thing. At the same time, there wasn't any one thing in particular that could be exploited. The bench was weak last season, but that get's minimized in the playoffs, especially if your top players can play almost entire games.

The Spurs defense needs to improve in order to win a championship, just not to the degree many think. Playing more of Duncan, McDyess and Splitter, while getting Anderson healthy, plus the fact that the entire team is likely to play with more urgency and intensity in the playoffs (Duncan will not be holding back, like he does against lesser competition), should improve the defense enough to give them a legit shot, so long as they're healthy.

A big key on defense is getting important stops and so far, this team has shown a penchant for doing so. They'll put together a good stretch in the fourth and because of their offense, pull away or at least get enough breathing room to pull it out.

[ChumpDumper]

Back when their focus was on defense and not on shooting three pointers. It developed with the arrival of Finley and Barry, and was fully in place when Pop ruined Mighty Mouse by turning him into an anxious chucker.I remember the green light given to open three point shooters pretty much from day one of the Duncan era. If you can give examples of Pop's discouraging open shooters from shooting, that would help me out.

Go figure.

Ruined Mighty Mouse? Really?

[Obstructed_View]

Really?

I remember the green light given to open three point shooters pretty much from day one of the Duncan era.

Go figure.

Ruined Mighty Mouse? Really?

Then you remember wrong. Green light to shooters isn't the same thing as benching them for not taking open shots.

[ChumpDumper]

Then you remember wrong. Green light to shooters isn't the same thing as benching them for not taking open shots.I can't think of an earlier shooter that was as big a pussy as early Brent Barry about taking open threes while being that good at actually taking open threes. If you can give me an example, please do.

lol ruined Mighty Mouse.

[jjktkk]

Back when their focus was on defense and not on shooting three pointers. It developed with the arrival of Finley and Barry, and was fully in place when Pop ruined Mighty Mouse by turning him into an anxious chucker.

Pop ruined might mouse. And I assumed mighty mouse was just too old to anything but become an anxious chucker.

[Obstructed_View]

I can't think of an earlier shooter that was as big a pussy as early Brent Barry about taking open threes while being that good at actually taking open threes. If you can give me an example, please do.
Whether or not you blame the phenomenon on Barry is irrelevant (I agree about Barry though). The Spurs' obsession with the three point shot started during that time. Prior to that, Pop was more likely to call a timeout and shred a player for taking a bad three than he was to pull someone for passing one up.


lol ruined Mighty Mouse.
Given your memory, it's in no way surprising that you don't remember this. Damon was a pretty decent playmaker and was doing a good job of running the offense. He was even efficient at finding his own shot. There's an article about it, and his play before and after are pretty apparent.

[ChumpDumper]

Whether or not you blame the phenomenon on Barry is irrelevant (I agree about Barry though). The Spurs' obsession with the three point shot started during that time. Prior to that, Pop was more likely to call a timeout and shred a player for taking a bad three than he was to pull someone for passing one up.Wrong. The Spurs' success has always depended on three point shooters taking and making open shots. It's simply disingenuous to argue otherwise, but I really don't expect anything else these days -- agenda uber alles. I asked you to give examples of players who passed up open threes like Barry back then. I got nothing from you.



Given your memory, it's in no way surprising that you don't remember this. Damon was a pretty decent playmaker and was doing a good job of running the offense. He was even efficient at finding his own shot. There's an article about it, and his play before and after are pretty apparent.Yeah, it wasn't because he was old and done. :rolleyes Given your memory, it's in no way surprising you think he should still have been able to play as he did when he was 23 years old.

[Obstructed_View]

Wrong. The Spurs' success has always depended on three point shooters taking and making open shots. It's simply disingenuous to argue otherwise, but I really don't expect anything else these days -- agenda uber alles. I asked you to give examples of players who passed up open threes like Barry back then. I got nothing from you.
I told you exactly when Pop started pulling players for passing up threes. Unless you're implying that NO players EVER passed up threes before Barry joined the team, your request for examples is irrelevant to my point, because Pop has benched several guys other than Barry for doing it, and he never did it prior to that, just the opposite in fact.

Just go look at the number of threes the Spurs have attempted since the beginning of the Duncan era and you'll see how important they've become. When Pop and RC are both telling the press in the off-season that the Spurs need shooting more than anything coming off two or three years where they've masively increased their three attempts, I don't really understand how you can even bother to argue this point. Actually, you aren't really arguing the point, you're trying to change the subject and declare victory as usual.


Yeah, it wasn't because he was old and done. :rolleyes Given your memory, it's in no way surprising you think he should still have been able to play as he did when he was 23 years old.
And we have the Chump strawman sighting right on schedule. I never said he had to play like when he was 23, I said that Pop ruined him. If he were old and done he wouldn't have played as well as he did for the first half of the season. Maybe it's just a coincidence that he was a contributor in his role until the moment Pop told him to shoot more when he was open (there's a McDonald article about it) and his points (and assists) suddenly went in the toilet and he fell out of the rotation by the playoffs, where he got no meaningful minutes.

There's nothing wrong with my memory, thanks.

[ChumpDumper]

I told you exactly when Pop started pulling players for passing up threes. Unless you're implying that NO players EVER passed up threes before Barry joined the team, your request for examples is irrelevant to my point, because Pop has benched several guys other than Barry for doing it, and he never did it prior to that, just the opposite in fact.OK. Who? Quit stalling. You'll have to tell us who passed up open threes as a matter of course previously and was not benched because of it. Back up your argument.


Just go look at the number of threes the Spurs have attempted since the beginning of the Duncan era and you'll see how important they've become. When Pop and RC are both telling the press in the off-season that the Spurs need shooting more than anything coming off two or three years where they've masively increased their three attempts, I don't really understand how you can even bother to argue this point. Actually, you aren't really arguing the point, you're trying to change the subject and declare victory as usual.I've said they have always been important to the championship teams. That is true and you are being disingenuous to support your agenda. Again, I'm not surprised.



And we have the Chump strawman sighting right on schedule. I never said he had to play like when he was 23, I said that Pop ruined him. If he were old and done he wouldn't have played as well as he did for the first half of the season. Maybe it's just a coincidence that he was a contributor in his role until the moment Pop told him to shoot more when he was open (there's a McDonald article about it) and his points (and assists) suddenly went in the toilet and he fell out of the rotation by the playoffs, where he got no meaningful minutes.

There's nothing wrong with my memory, thanks.Your memory sucks ass.

Mighty Mouse was done. The whole time he was a Spur. It's not like the Spurs have never signed a guy who was done before. They did it this season.

Twice.

lol McDonald