He can't be armed...

[Yonivore]

...he's under 18 and, therefore, doesn't hold a Concealed Handgun License.

Armed student seizes hostages at Wisconsin school (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/30/wisconsin-hostages-marinette-high-school)

If that teacher were armed, this might be over right now.

Also, with the potential to kill as many as were killed at Columbine, why isn't this wall-to-wall in the United States? Why is the first link on Google to a UK Paper?

UPDATE: My bad...apparently, it is going wall-to-wall.

[Winehole23]

All of the hostages were released unharmed after about five hours. The student, 15, shot himself after police officers entered the room, Chief Jeff Skorik of the Marinette police said. He was taken to a hospital, and his condition was not immediately known. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/us/30hostage.html?src=mv

[Winehole23]

Would an armed teacher have made the situation safer for students, Yoni?

[Yonivore]

Would an armed teacher have made the situation safer for students, Yoni?
With good gun control; absolutely.

[Winehole23]

Wouldn't the foreknowledge of armed teachers necessitate killing teachers as a matter of course?

[Winehole23]

With good gun control; absolutely.I meant in this case.

Without another firearm to escalate the situation, the resolution was safe for all but the shooter, who ended up shooting only himself.

[Yonivore]

Wouldn't the foreknowledge of armed teachers necessitate killing teachers as a matter of course?
If CHL's were as ubiquitous as DL's there would be no way to know if the teacher were armed; so, no. Besides, crazy, suicidal idiots rarely follow "a matter of course."

[Yonivore]

I meant in this case.

Without another firearm to escalate the situation, the resolution was safe for all but the shooter, who ended up shooting only himself.
If he had been neutralized when he entered the room, there wouldn't have been hours of not knowing.

[DMX7]

Besides, crazy, suicidal idiots rarely follow "a matter of course."

They'll probably be forced to if CHLs become ubiquitous.

[Winehole23]

Students will disarm teachers and kill them with their own sidearms. You know that, right?

Teachers will shoot students without good cause.

It's a real bad idea, Yoni. There's no need to militarize classrooms.

[Yonivore]

They'll probably be forced to if CHLs become ubiquitous.
They'll still be crazy and suicidal.

But, to carry your point to the ultimate conclusion; I don't believe people should be required to obtain a license to carry a gun. Then, no one would know who is armed. We would all be free to exercise our constitutional right to self defense.

Was there a law that prevented that 15 year-old from using a gun to hold 23 students hostage for several hours? Nope.

Then, there shouldn't be a law that would prevent that teacher from putting a bullet in his head, given the opportunity.

[Yonivore]

Students will disarm teachers and kill them with their own sidearms. You know that, right?

Teachers will shoot students without good cause.

It's a real bad idea, Yoni. There's no need to militarize classrooms.
Most schools have campus police officers. How many have been killed with their own weapons after being disarmed by a student?

Your argument is the same as the one used to oppose CHL in the first place and, what do you know, we haven't turned into a combat zone.

[Winehole23]

We don't do it in schools, and that ain't a bad idea IMO.

[CuckingFunt]

But, to carry your point to the ultimate conclusion; I don't believe people should be required to obtain a license to carry a gun. Then, no one would know who is armed.

Until they reached for the concealed weapon, causing panic. Or until they shot someone.


We would all be free to exercise our constitutional right to self defense.

Shooting someone is a constitutional right?

Defending yourself necessarily requires a gun?


Most schools have campus police officers. How many have been killed with their own weapons after being disarmed by a student?

Teachers aren't part of a uniformed police force.

Furthermore, in many schools (read: public schools, inner city schools, underfunded schools), a teacher's only hope of ever having any semblance of authority and/or positive effect on disenfranchised youths comes specifically from the fact that they are NOT part of a uniformed police force. Are you seriously suggesting we allow teachers to carry guns in an already hostile public school system as a positive thing? Or are you so removed from public schools and the poor folks who need them that you're not even considering their existence in your proposal?

[ChumpDumper]

I like how every CHL holder is Rambo just waiting for his chance to blast some Viet Cong.

[johnsmith]

I like how every CHL holder is Rambo just waiting for his chance to blast some Viet Cong.

Really? Every single person?

Geez, I better go get a red bandana and start working on my abs then. I guess I hadn't been paying attention to Chumpdumpers description of me prior to this........my bad.

[boutons_deux]

I see where VA is pushing to allow arming all college students.

Drunk, stoned college kids, excellent, reliable weapons experts. :lol

[BlairForceDejuan]

I like how every CHL holder is Rambo just waiting for his chance to blast some Viet Cong.

I like how people make ignorant comments like this.

[Glenn Holland]

CHL folks are 99.999999% old, angry, jealous, racist white men who want to serve out some old school justice.

[ChumpDumper]

Really? Every single person?

Geez, I better go get a red bandana and start working on my abs then. I guess I hadn't been paying attention to Chumpdumpers description of me prior to this........my bad.


I like how people make ignorant comments like this.Hey, as yoni just illustrated, the line in these situations is invariably "well, if people were allowed to have handguns there, the guy would have been taken out quickly and efficiently."

If you guys are saying you as a CHL holder wouldn't have gone into Bronson mode in this situation and don't claim others would, bravo.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Man some of you got chump dumped pretty hard there.

[johnsmith]

Hey, as yoni just illustrated, the line in these situations is invariably "well, if people were allowed to have handguns there, the guy would have been taken out quickly and efficiently."

If you guys are saying you as a CHL holder wouldn't have gone into Bronson mode in this situation and don't claim others would, bravo.

I wouldn't have because I'm just out to get the Viet Cong as you said earlier.

[johnsmith]

:lmao

Man some of you got chump dumped pretty hard there.

How do you figure?

[BlairForceDejuan]

:lmao

Man some of you got chump dumped pretty hard there.
http://injurysupplies.com/images/Category_Knee_Braces_Knee_Pads.jpg

[BlairForceDejuan]

CHL folks are 99.999999% old, angry, jealous, racist white men who want to serve out some old school justice.

lol son, try going to a local CHL class and educate yourself. Sure you have some of the 400 lb. weekend warrior gold-plated gear junkies, but you would be surprised.

[MannyIsGod]

How do you figure?

CD wasn't saying you're Rambo. He was saying thats how Yonivore paints a CDL holder.

[BlairForceDejuan]

CD wasn't saying you're Rambo. He was saying thats how Yonivore paints a CDL holder.


Whoops, my bad Chumpdumper and Manny...I was just quickly skimming :bang

[johnsmith]

CD wasn't saying you're Rambo. He was saying thats how Yonivore paints a CDL holder.

This is what I get for not ever reading anything Yoni has to say.

Although Chump is still a broooooaaaaaddddd brush kind of guy.

[Winehole23]

This is what I get for not ever reading anything Yoni has to say.What did you get? I'm eager to learn about the reward.

[ChumpDumper]

Whoops, my bad Chumpdumper and Manny...I was just quickly skimming :bang


This is what I get for not ever reading anything Yoni has to say.

Although Chump is still a broooooaaaaaddddd brush kind of guy.lol no problem. I can see how that could have been misconstrued.

I'm still kind of wondering how yoni is playing this particular situation out in his mind. Would the teacher have the gun in her purse? Under her skirt in a thigh holster? In her bra? She would have to be ready to shoot a kid at any given second, right? I doubt the student announced his intention to produce two guns and take hostages in advance.

I have mixed feelings about "gun free zones" but I can't say that introducing more guns would help every situation.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol no problem. I can see how that could have been misconstrued.

I'm still kind of wondering how yoni is playing this particular situation out in his mind. Would the teacher have the gun in her purse? Under her skirt in a thigh holster? In her bra? She would have to be ready to shoot a kid at any given second, right? I doubt the student announced his intention to produce two guns and take hostages in advance.

I have mixed feelings about "gun free zones" but I can't say that introducing more guns would help every situation.

I'm voting for the gun bra.:toast
http://www.shinyshiny.tv/fembots.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

I meant in this case.

Without another firearm to escalate the situation, the resolution was safe for all but the shooter, who ended up shooting only himself.
Will the next guy only shoot himself? What about a past incident were several students were killed and injured.

I agree. Good gun control by someone following concealed carry rules is the key. The first amendment rocks. A well trained militia is needed for us to protect our communities as well.

[Wild Cobra]

Students will disarm teachers and kill them with their own sidearms. You know that, right?

Teachers will shoot students without good cause.

It's a real bad idea, Yoni. There's no need to militarize classrooms.
That already happens outside the classroom. Both thugs and cops shoot people without good reason.

[ChumpDumper]

That already happens outside the classroom. Both thugs and cops shoot people without good reason.Is that an argument for having it happen inside the classrooms as well?

[CuckingFunt]

Will the next guy only shoot himself? What about a past incident were several students were killed and injured.

I agree. Good gun control by someone following concealed carry rules is the key. The first amendment rocks. A well trained militia is needed for us to protect our communities as well.

You're right. Much easier to arm teachers than to invest a little time and energy into making sure kids don't become troubled enough to want to blast the school.

[ChumpDumper]

Just how many teachers want to wear a firearm in class?

[Wild Cobra]

You're right. Much easier to arm teachers than to invest a little time and energy into making sure kids don't become troubled enough to want to blast the school.
That's a different topic yet. Mostly because of the breakdown of family values.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The first amendment rocks.

wrong amendment



A well trained militia is needed for us to protect our communities as well.

how will a militia prevent the next columbine?

[TeyshaBlue]

wrong amendment




how will a militia prevent the next columbine?

Talk to the wolverines.

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawn.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

wrong amendment




how will a militia prevent the next columbine?
True, I meant the second.

Wow... you caught me on a mistake. That a point for you!

We can argue if or not a columbine shooting would have been stopped. I would say that factual cases in the past bear out that they would have been stopped before they could have hurt as many as they did.

They fact that teachers may be armed alone can be a deterrent to stop such things. Many who use firearms are pussies. When they realize they may come to someone equally armed, they will likely fold.

Ever play poker?

[Wild Cobra]

Talk to the wolverines.

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawn.jpg
Great movie. I'll have to add that to my Blu-ray collection if they come out in that format.

[ChumpDumper]

You should always bring a gun to a poker game.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I would say that factual cases in the past bear out that they would have been stopped before they could have hurt as many as they did.

huh? past examples show that your ad hoc hypothetical solution of having militias would have mitigated the harm of past examples? how could anything of the sort ever be proved?


They fact that teachers may be armed alone can be a deterrent to stop such things. Many who use firearms are pussies. When they realize they may come to someone equally armed, they will likely fold.

is this an argument based on fact? or are you just making shit up as you go along?

[Winehole23]

Talk to the wolverines.

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawn.jpgWhere do the Cubans attack first?

Nebraska.

[Winehole23]

That already happens outside the classroom. Both thugs and cops shoot people without good reason.No argument here.

[Winehole23]

More guns to make it safer seems like a bad option to me. We don't need to concentrate fire in crowded classrooms, filled with precious children. I feel a little embarrassed I even have to point that out.

[Wild Cobra]

is this an argument based on fact? or are you just making shit up as you go along?
There was a little reported story some time back where a teacher went back to his car, got his pistol, and stopped a shooting. He had a conceal carry permit, but wasn't permitted to use it on campus. He saved the day.

[Wild Cobra]

More guns to make it safer seems like a bad option to me. We don't need to concentrate fire in crowded classrooms, filled with precious children. I feel a little embarrassed I even have to point that out.
The point is it works as a deterrent. Sure, some shitheads will still act, but the deterrent value is real. In no gun zones, the lawful follow the law. Criminals don't. That creates an unfair advantage for the criminals.

[Winehole23]

It works as a deterrent. I thought there was no effective deterrent against the insane and criminally depraved. Can't you make up your mind, WC?

[Winehole23]

It only deters those too timid to do it in the first place.

[Winehole23]

Some things are better left to the police. Teachers aren't trained for LE, nor should they be. No need to arm up the classroom.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm disappointing that you have so little faith in your fellow mankind.

[ElNono]

Why would any of these criminals think that the possibility of dying by being shot by another person is any stronger deterrent than the possibility of dying by the death penalty? Especially suicidal kids like the one on the OP's story.

We already have deterrents in place, including facing possible death, without having to arm the whole society.

[boutons_deux]

Death and prison penalties have obviously kept crime insignificant and trending downward.

A very small %age of homicides are solved, and fewer house-breakins.

[Wild Cobra]

We already have deterrents in place, including facing possible death, without having to arm the whole society.
I actually heard a common sense idea with some background behind it that lessens my support for the death penalty in as many cases as I have expressed I would like to see it used in. It seems that when a criminal goes past a certain point, it can be an advantages gamble to kill the potential witnesses as not to have someone testify for the dearth penalty. I am skeptical that this is a real factor as opposed to killing witnesses to stay out of jail in the first place, but it has merit as not to apply it to as many circumstances as I would like to apply it too.

There are shades of gray, and no one scenario fits all. Criminals often expect to get away with their crime. In circumstances where this is the case, such criminals will think twice before committing the crimes. Just because it doesn't detour all cases, doesn't mean you should shit-can the idea.

[CuckingFunt]

The point is it works as a deterrent. Sure, some shitheads will still act, but the deterrent value is real. In no gun zones, the lawful follow the law. Criminals don't. That creates an unfair advantage for the criminals.

Have there been any school shootings by people who weren't suicidal? I genuinely don't know, but can't recall any such cases.

Is the threat of being killed a deterrent to someone who plans their own head-shot as the finale of their tantrum?