House Dems reject Obama tax cuts...

[CosmicCowboy]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=12353675&tqkw=&tqshow=

House Democrats voted Thursday to reject President Barack Obama's tax deal with Republicans in its current form, but it was unclear how significantly the package might need to be changed.

By voice vote in a closed caucus meeting, Democrats passed a resolution saying the tax package should not come to the House floor for consideration as written, even though no formal House bill has been drafted. Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., introduced the resolution.

Said Rep. Lloyd Doggett, D-Texas: "If it's take it or leave it, we'll leave it."

The vote will at least temporarily stall what had seemed to be a grudging Democratic movement toward the tax package.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in a statement that House Democrats share Obama's "commitment to providing the middle class with a tax cut to grow the economy and create jobs." She noted that a House-passed bill, which Republicans blocked in the Senate, did not include "a bonus tax cut to millionaires and billionaires."


"We will continue discussions with the president and our Democratic and Republican colleagues in the days ahead to improve the proposal before it comes to the House floor for a vote," the California Democrat said.

The voice vote in the caucus was quite lopsided. Rep. Shelley Berkley of Nevada told reporters afterward that "one person voted against it. That would be me."

Asked what happens next, Rep. James Clyburn of South Carolina, the No. 3 person in the Democratic leadership, said, "I don't know."

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs brushed off the setback, predicting the package "will get passed" before year's end. He said House members and senators are not going to go back home without taking action, knowing that their constituents would face a tax hike on Jan. 1 if so.

Speaking earlier Thursday at a White House event promoting American exports, Obama said the vote will determine whether the economy "moves forward or backward." The president again pressed Congress to pass the agreement, saying it has the potential to create millions of jobs. He said if it fails, Americans would see smaller paychecks and fewer jobs.

[CosmicCowboy]

This is actually pretty humorous.

[jack sommerset]

Looks like the dems are kicking and scratching on their way out the door.

[CosmicCowboy]

A lame ass lame duck congress flipping off their own party President.

[jack sommerset]

A lame ass lame duck congress flipping off their own party President.

Can't say people didn't see this coming. They did vote to keep Pelosi as their leader.

[MannyIsGod]

A lame ass lame duck congress flipping off their own party President.

Progressives have gotten tired of his bullshit. I don't see humor in it, though.

[CosmicCowboy]

Progressives have gotten tired of his bullshit. I don't see humor in it, though.

:wow


You mean the thrill is gone?

[MannyIsGod]

Its been gone for a long time

[CosmicCowboy]

So Manny, you support the House democrats blowing up the deal and letting the taxes increase January 1?

[MannyIsGod]

I support them not just caving in and fighting for a better solution. You can't just roll over every fuckibg time.

[boutons_deux]

After scare-mongering about deficits, always was a lie, the Repugs expose their lie and want a deal that adds about $1T to the deficit over 2 years.

And of course, the deal changes the nature of SS funds, which will be viciously attacked in a privatization war by the Repugs.

[George Gervin's Afro]

so much for the deficit hawks complaining about the deficit..

[George Gervin's Afro]

So Manny, you support the House democrats blowing up the deal and letting the taxes increase January 1?

You said yourself that the GOP could do it retroactively. Stop playing stupid..

[CosmicCowboy]

I support them not just caving in and fighting for a better solution. You can't just roll over every fuckibg time.

They have zero leverage to cut a better deal.

Everyone knows they aren't going to let the taxes increase on everyone Jan 1.

[CosmicCowboy]

You said yourself that the GOP could do it retroactively. Stop playing stupid..

At least I have to play stupid. You do it naturally.

[jack sommerset]

At least I have to play stupid. You do it naturally.

Ain't that the truth.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ain't that the truth.


the epitome of stupid...

[jack sommerset]

the epitome of stupid...

Yes u are.

[CosmicCowboy]

so much for the deficit hawks complaining about the deficit..

A major tax increase during a recession is stupid. Even stupider than you, which is saying a lot.

[George Gervin's Afro]

A major tax increase during a recession is stupid. Even stupider than you, which is saying a lot.

so all of the moaning and bitching about the deficits was just bullshit.. which means you guys were just being hypocrites and liars... got it


it's hard to keep up with your side's positions.. one way today another way tomorrow..

[CosmicCowboy]

so all of the moaning and bitching about the deficits were just bullshit.. which means you guys were just being hypocrites and liars... got it

Increasing taxes in a recession isn't the way to fight the deficit. Spending needs to be addressed first.

[CosmicCowboy]

it's hard to keep up with your side's positions.. one way today another way tomorrow..

While it's easy keeping up with you...just more stupid every day.

[George Gervin's Afro]

While it's easy keeping up with you...just more stupid every day.

I'm not the one who was against deficits before they didn't matter.. but it's obvious you'll flip then flop just to try and make the other side look bad.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not the one who was against deficits before they didn't matter.. but it's obvious you'll flip then flop just to try and make the other side look bad.

How is leaving tax rates where they are "costing" a fucking dime? You might as well say that since we aren't taxing the rick 100% of what they make it's "costing" us trillions...

[CosmicCowboy]

And deficits matter. I'm for getting the fuck out of Afghanistan/Iraq, raising the retirement age, cutting domestic spending and going to a two stage flat tax with no deductions/credits. Fat chance of THAT ever getting through congress.

[DMX7]

A major tax increase during a recession is stupid. Even stupider than you, which is saying a lot.

We're not even in a recession... stupid.

[CosmicCowboy]

We're not even in a recession... stupid.

Greaaaaaat....now we have dumb and dumber in the thread...

[MannyIsGod]

They have zero leverage to cut a better deal.

Everyone knows they aren't going to let the taxes increase on everyone Jan 1.

Then this is political theater and yet you find it so funny?

[CosmicCowboy]

Then this is political theater and yet you find it so funny?

After the last few years of unbridled arrogance I find the petulant impotence humorous, yes...

[Wild Cobra]

and going to a two stage flat tax with no deductions/credits. Fat chance of THAT ever getting through congress.
Of course it will never happen. it would take power away from congress for them to play favorites and uses taxes for a reason to vote for them they wouldn't be able to by libtard votes any longer if the tax system was equal for all.

[DarrinS]

Why are Dems so enraged that everyone will have their same tax rates?

[jack sommerset]

Why are Dems so enraged that everyone will have their same tax rates?

It's crazy when you really think about it.

[Wild Cobra]

It's crazy when you really think about it.
Who ever said liberals made sense, or had common sense?

[boutons_deux]

Increasing taxes in a recession isn't the way to fight the deficit. Spending needs to be addressed first.

so private sector spending (consumer demand) is down, it's important to reduce public sector spending, making the Banksters' Great Depression so much better.

the priority is not the deficit, and so reducing the deficit by cutting public sector spending isn't a priority, either.

[CosmicCowboy]

so private sector spending (consumer demand) is down, it's important to reduce public sector spending, making the Banksters' Great Depression so much better.

the priority is not the deficit, and so reducing the deficit by cutting public sector spending isn't a priority, either.

The economy needs to reset with lower expectations. A debt driven economy is toxic in the long run. More and more public spending is just like taking tequila shots to avoid the eventual hangover that will be even worse because of the shots you kept taking.

[boutons_deux]

"debt driven economy is toxic in the long run"

that doesn't seem to bother you Repugs when dubya was tripling the deficit with bogus wars and tax cuts.

what's the cause of the debt now and for next 10 years?

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

Private sector debt is the financial sector's lifeblood, aka interest. Debt is how capitalists control the country, and foreclose on real assets.

[boutons_deux]

Repugs dump over $1T tax cuts on the super-wealthy, but 9/11 responders get fucked.

Dems outraged as GOP blocks 9/11 responders’ health bill

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/gop-blocks-911-responders-bill/

Those responders just don't own enough Congressmen.

[Winehole23]

More and more public spending is just like taking tequila shots to avoid the eventual hangover that will be even worse because of the shots you kept taking.What will tax cuts do to the fiscal deficit, CC?

What have they been doing to it for the better part of a decade?

You guys sound like the drunkard praying for sobriety, while at the same time praying for the party to continue for a just few more days.

Can you not see the dissonance there, CosmicCowboy?

[ducks]

"debt driven economy is toxic in the long run"

that doesn't seem to bother you Repugs when dubya was tripling the deficit with bogus wars and tax cuts.

what's the cause of the debt now and for next 10 years?

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

Private sector debt is the financial sector's lifeblood, aka interest. Debt is how capitalists control the country, and foreclose on real assets.
so since the republicans spent and people learned their lesson


but you think since the republicans did it
it is ok the donkeys do it


it does not matter if it is for the better of the country though

[ducks]

What will tax cuts do to the fiscal deficit, CC?

What have they been doing to it for the better part of a decade?

You guys sound like the drunkard praying for sobriety, while at the same time praying for the party to continue for a just few more days.

Can you not see the dissonance there, CosmicCowboy?

tax cuts will keep the businesses from firing you so you can pay taxeds

actually it is not a tax cut since it is already law

the so called president said he would not raise taxes
if he does not extent the bush tax cuts he will raise taxes

[Drachen]

tax cuts will keep the businesses from firing you so you can pay taxeds

actually it is not a tax cut since it is already law

the so called president said he would not raise taxes
if he does not extent the bush tax cuts he will raise taxes

if he doesn't extend the bush tax cuts? Do you understand how our government works?

Oh and it is a tax cut. Currently the law next year is a reversion to the permanent tax rate. They are currently seeking to cut those taxes.

[Spurminator]

A step in the right direction.

[boutons_deux]

The Untold Story of the Tax Deal

Washington, D.C. -- The Senate Democrats actually had the votes they needed to pass unemployment extenders and middle-class tax cuts -- if they had used the Senate rules as if they wanted to win. Tax and spending changes like these are immune to filibusters as long as the Senate, by a majority vote, chooses to use the Budget Reconciliation process.

That's how the Bush tax cuts were enacted in the first place -- because Bush didn't have 60 votes for them in the Senate, either. Indeed, getting 60 votes for a fiscal measure is difficult in any political climate, which is precisely why Congress in 1974 adopted a bill that allowed the Senate to act on budgetary matters using a simple majority.

Republicans have historically been the biggest fans -- and the most skilled deployers -- of this process. Indeed, the original Reagan budget package in 1981 was also passed using Budget Reconciliation because, as then Senate majority leader Howard Baker put it: "Congress was able to consider President Reagan's economic program as a whole, resistant to the type of special interest pressures that would have scuttled the savings if they had been proposed in piecemeal fashion."

So both the Reagan and the Bush economic programs were enacted by the Senate on a simple majority vote. The Democrats could have, and apparently considered, doing the same thing in this lame-duck session. They could have packed unemployment compensation and other fiscal-stimulus extenders along with the middle-class portion of the Bush tax cuts and passed them. But that would have required Democratic senators to play hardball and operate by majority rule -- something too many of them have been afraid of doing for two years. There's no evidence that President Obama used his bully pulpit to pressure them to use the only procedure under which Congress has ever managed to behave in a fiscally rational fashion -- so he's not off the hook, but neither is he the only culprit.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/the-untold-story-of-the-t_b_794772.html?view=print

==========

fucking Dems, what dickless wimps.

[johnsmith]

fucking Dems, what dickless wimps.

Yes, they obviously lack the courage you show day in and day out.

[spursncowboys]

if he doesn't extend the bush tax cuts? Do you understand how our government works?

Oh and it is a tax cut. Currently the law next year is a reversion to the permanent tax rate. They are currently seeking to cut those taxes.

Letting the law expire wouldn't be a tax hike but renewing it would be a tax cut?

[CosmicCowboy]

What will tax cuts do to the fiscal deficit, CC?

What have they been doing to it for the better part of a decade?



There will be very little economic impact in extending the tax cuts. The real question should be, how much damage to the economy did we avoid by not raising taxes?

[hater]

IMO the democrats are dumb as shit. NOONE wants the tax to go up. The president is right on this one.

both dems and reps are in a sad state.

[TeyshaBlue]

Letting the law expire wouldn't be a tax hike but renewing it would be a tax cut?

Yeah, that kinda flew at me too.

[MannyIsGod]

I've pretty much come around to the feeling that I hope everyone's taxes go up. Not just the top tax bracket. Let this shit expire for everyone. If our country really learned anything in this financial crisis lets prove it. If we really want expensive government programs - no matter how well merited we think they are - we should all start to pay for them.

Short term economy be damned, this is about something bigger.

That being said I'm sure the Dems will cave soon.

[CosmicCowboy]

I've pretty much come around to the feeling that I hope everyone's taxes go up. Not just the top tax bracket. Let this shit expire for everyone. If our country really learned anything in this financial crisis lets prove it. If we really want expensive government programs - no matter how well merited we think they are - we should all start to pay for them.

Short term economy be damned, this is about something bigger.

That being said I'm sure the Dems will cave soon.

I'm amazed Manny. Before you know it you are going to be a conservative.

As I have said repeatedly, EVERYONE needs to pay SOME taxes so they have skin in the game.

When half the population doesn't pay ANY taxes in a Democracy then overspending and then overtaxing the other half is inevitable.

[Crookshanks]

I've pretty much come around to the feeling that I hope everyone's taxes go up. Not just the top tax bracket. Let this shit expire for everyone. If our country really learned anything in this financial crisis lets prove it. If we really want expensive government programs - no matter how well merited we think they are - we should all start to pay for them.

Short term economy be damned, this is about something bigger.

That being said I'm sure the Dems will cave soon.

Well Manny - the problem with that is the almost 50% who don't pay ANY Federal Income Tax. They're the ones getting the benefit of many of those expensive government programs, but they don't pay anything towards funding them. So they could care less if everyone else's taxes went up. The people most hurt will be those in the lowest tax bracket. They will go from 10% to 15% - and that will really hurt those lower middle class families.

[TeyshaBlue]

I've pretty much come around to the feeling that I hope everyone's taxes go up. Not just the top tax bracket. Let this shit expire for everyone. If our country really learned anything in this financial crisis lets prove it. If we really want expensive government programs - no matter how well merited we think they are - we should all start to pay for them.

Short term economy be damned, this is about something bigger.

That being said I'm sure the Dems will cave soon.

Pretty much my stand as well. We've been budgeting short term for 30 years...bout time to get outta that rut.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm amazed Manny. Before you know it you are going to be a conservative.

As I have said repeatedly, EVERYONE needs to pay SOME taxes so they have skin in the game.

When half the population doesn't pay ANY taxes in a Democracy then overspending and then overtaxing the other half is inevitable.

Everyone does pay taxes. God damn. This bullshit again?

[TeyshaBlue]

Well Manny - the problem with that is the almost 50% who don't pay ANY Federal Income Tax. They're the ones getting the benefit of many of those expensive government programs, but they don't pay anything towards funding them. So they could care less if everyone else's taxes went up. The people most hurt will be those in the lowest tax bracket. They will go from 10% to 15% - and that will really hurt those lower middle class families.

Oversimplification aside, some of this could be addressed by at least instituting a zero net return policy. I know of one particular case where more money was received in refunds than paid in taxes...and I'm pretty sure it's a bit more common than we'd like to think.

All that said, the impact to the deficit is about zilch either way. But, the sustainability model/mindset needs to be all inclusive....and we've got to start sometime soon.

[MannyIsGod]

Well Manny - the problem with that is the almost 50% who don't pay ANY Federal Income Tax. They're the ones getting the benefit of many of those expensive government programs, but they don't pay anything towards funding them. So they could care less if everyone else's taxes went up. The people most hurt will be those in the lowest tax bracket. They will go from 10% to 15% - and that will really hurt those lower middle class families.

Oh Jesus Christ. Between this and the climate change threads I don't know why I"m not studying for my finals right now.

[TeyshaBlue]

Oh Jesus Christ. Between this and the climate change threads I don't know why I"m not studying for my finals right now.

Studying is overrated.:lol

[Wild Cobra]

"debt driven economy is toxic in the long run"

that doesn't seem to bother you Repugs when dubya was tripling the deficit with bogus wars and tax cuts.

what's the cause of the debt now and for next 10 years?

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

Private sector debt is the financial sector's lifeblood, aka interest. Debt is how capitalists control the country, and foreclose on real assets.
I'm getting tired of seeing that same stupid chart that had no factual relevance. How many times have you linked it now?

[Wild Cobra]

Letting the law expire wouldn't be a tax hike but renewing it would be a tax cut?
Liberal relativity...

[boutons_deux]

here's a goodie:

Attacks On Government Workers in Tax Deal

Yves Smith and Reuters blogger James Pethokoukis report that the billionaires-for-benefits compromise effectively ends the Build America Bonds program. That’s the program which makes it easier for states to borrow money to cover their budget shortfalls—estimated at $140 billion just next year.

Who are the victims when the states can’t borrow? Bill Fletcher reminded us this week of the attacks on public employees’ pay. Public employee retirement benefits will probably be the first to go — estimated at $750 billion to more than $3 trillion.

Pethokoukis further notes that legislation amending bankruptcy law is in the works, possibly permitting states to declare bankruptcy. And if they declare bankruptcy, just like GM, workers’ benefits are the first thing on the chopping block.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/12/10/attacks-on-government-workers-in-tax-deal/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

[CosmicCowboy]

here's a goodie:

Attacks On Government Workers in Tax Deal

Yves Smith and Reuters blogger James Pethokoukis report that the billionaires-for-benefits compromise effectively ends the Build America Bonds program. That’s the program which makes it easier for states to borrow money to cover their budget shortfalls—estimated at $140 billion just next year.

Who are the victims when the states can’t borrow? Bill Fletcher reminded us this week of the attacks on public employees’ pay. Public employee retirement benefits will probably be the first to go — estimated at $750 billion to more than $3 trillion.

Pethokoukis further notes that legislation amending bankruptcy law is in the works, possibly permitting states to declare bankruptcy. And if they declare bankruptcy, just like GM, workers’ benefits are the first thing on the chopping block.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/12/10/attacks-on-government-workers-in-tax-deal/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

Government employees benefits are outrageous anyway...:)

[boutons_deux]

contracts are contracts.

I guess they are gonna get raped the way the banks are raping centuries of property law contracts.

Volunteer to annul all of your contracts

[CosmicCowboy]

Most of the rewrites involve starting with new hires. They are breaking the ridiculous chain of obscenely generous defined benefit plans and going to conventional 401K's for new hires.