Is Pop bad at developing bigs?

[pad300]

I decided not to bury this in here:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167768
Because it really is a seperate question.

Is Pop bad at developing big men? He's certainly done well with PG's and Wings (see TP, Hill, Bowen - he grew into his role over his time here, Jefferson's rejuvenation this season - which is hopefully not a mirage...). However, big men seem a different story.

Tim has certainly developed his game, but how much of that is Popovich? Tim's a known gym rat with a huge b-ball IQ, who had his fundamentals developed by a full 4 years of college.

Aside from Tim, several players have declined due to age over Pop's tenure - Horry, Robinson, Willis. Other players have stagnated - notably Nazr, Oberto (up until his heart issues), McDyess*, Kurt Thomas, Sean Marks. Still others have regressed - Rasho (PER for his 3 seasons with the Spurs - 15.3, 12.0, 11.0), Bonner (TRB% from 2006-current, 14.4, 13.3, 11.9, 10.8, 9.2, while his EFG% doesn't show a trend, PER is 16.4, 12.4, 15.0, 14.9, 12.9), Elson (PER, TS% and as a result playing time fell off precipitiously in season 2 for us & he was traded), Malik Rose (got way to fancy, moving away from his fundamental game in the middle of his prime...overcoaching or just Pop not reigning him in?)

With regards to rookies/draft picks. Ian is a subject of much dispute, but it's 100% he's not going to give us anything now. Tiago is much to early to make any judgements. Blair appears to have either regressed or stagnated over his 1st year. Scola, lets just say OOPS! Then there are guys like Pops Mensah-Bonsu (who appears to be able to hold an NBA job elsewhere), Anthony Tolliver (the same).

Not to mention the bad choice collection - exhibit A being Jackie Butler. Exhibit B might be Javtokas, but it's hard to blame Pop for a traffic accident. However, choosing exhibit A over bringing over and trying out exhibit B, that might well have been a bad choice.

There are no doubt some guys who played minor minutes that I am missing, or have categorized as SF's rather than big men (Danny Ferry, Hedo Turkoglu spring to mind).

I see a clear pattern of our big men not improving. Is Pop bad at developing/integrating big men? Should the SAS organization consider bringing in a specialist big man coach?

*McDyess simply stagnating should probably count as a win for Pop, given how old he's getting...Although joining SAS saw significant drop off from his productivity with DET.

[portnoy1]

Pop really doesnt play big men anymore. He cant because the league has gotten smaller and quicker while the so called self proclaimed PF Duncan has gotten older and slower.

[Quasar]

Pops likes big guards, e.g. bonner!

He doesn't like bigs, look at what he's doing to Duncan :D

[portnoy1]

Pops likes big guards, e.g. bonner!

He doesn't like bigs, look at what he's doing to Duncan :D
Not so much guards. He just needs 5guys on the court that can score and play solid defense on certain possesions. The lakers have done this for years and have been successful doing it. The spurs would play 48minutes of defense and try to somehow find a way to get to an effecient 95pts.

[Shifty]

Although I do believe you have a point, I think you have to consider that most bigs are either already in decline or coming from "career years" when they get to Pop's Spurs. They are past their primes veterans or development projects. Also, is not like they came here to be stats guys. The other bigs always come to do dirty work and stay out of the way of the Big 3. Is not like teams keep rotation players that long either, specially when you have a core of 3-5 players for 10 years, the others are almost forced out because they did "good" on a great team and are looking for minutes and money the Spurs can't offer or because they didn't do good and are looking for a better situation.

[Cry Havoc]

I think the main reason we see bigs going elsewhere and putting up numbers is simply that Pop's tolerance for bone-headedness is so low.

It's a testament to how skilled of a player Tony Parker is, because if he wasn't an all-star level talent, Pop would have locked him in the doghouse by now.

A lot of bigs come to SA and they can get rebounds and hit shots, but Pop doesn't care about that if you lack the ability to listen to him and play consistent defense.

You can average 14 and 8, but if he doesn't see you giving a lot of effort on defense, he's going to lay into you, because he needs to know you're reliable in crunch time in the playoffs.

Having said that, I think Bonner must be his illegitimate son, or something.

[SenorSpur]

Pop really doesnt play big men anymore. He cant because the league has gotten smaller and quicker while the so called self proclaimed PF Duncan has gotten older and slower.

If Pop truly believes that trend and has made decisions based upon it, he's sadly misguided. Small-ball is a bullshit fallacy. Especially when you consider that the 2-time, defending NBA Champs - the Fakers - have probably more length and height on their frontline than anyone in the West. It's been that way ever since Gasol arrived. Furthermore, the Fakers didn't win 2 titles in a row by playing small. They dictate games by playing their bigs and forcing opponents to adjust.

Look at the top teams in each conference. The two teams that have been featured in two of the past three NBA Finals (Fakers and Celtics) have probably the most frontline depth than any other team in the NBA. In fact, with the addition of Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, along with the expected Jan return of Kendrick Perkins, the Celtics have the East's most formidable frontline.

Hell, even Mark Cuban and the Mavs have finally gotten the message. OVer the offseason, they drastically remade their frontline by adding Tyson Chandler and resigning Brendon Haywood, which means they can always field a lineup with a true 5. This also give Coach Carlisle the versatility of fielding a 3-guard lineup, along with Dirk and Chandler. The additions of Ajinca and Mahinmi has allowed the Mavs to upgrade both the size and depth on their bench. Being the annual trend-followers that they are, they've done all this with the express purpose of trying matching up against Celtics and Fakers.

Those are the teams that every other team should be measuring themselves against. Since when did Pop start following trends of the NBA also-rans? League-wide trends don't mean shit. How the Spurs matchup against the conference's top-tier teams is what really matters.

[spurtech09]

shaq and J. O Neal are old....Don't forget injury prone...Tyson chandler is a whimp and I didn't see Brendon Haywood do anything against the spurs in the play offs last season...Mahinmi is a whimp too

[Solid D]

No way. No matter the position you play in the Spurs system, you must have good fundamentals, play team defense, and get over yourself. Big, medium and small. Pop isn't the primary player development guy, anyway.

Scola and Javtokas aren't in the conversation because they were never under contract by the Spurs. Medical treatment and training plan recommendations aside, the Spurs didn't develop guys not under contract.

[Old School 44]

I don't think it's Pop, it's just good bigs are harder to come by. Ask yourself this question, who in the league develops good bigs?

[sananspursfan21]

Although I do believe you have a point, I think you have to consider that most bigs are either already in decline or coming from "career years" when they get to Pop's Spurs. They are past their primes veterans or development projects. Also, is not like they came here to be stats guys. The other bigs always come to do dirty work and stay out of the way of the Big 3. Is not like teams keep rotation players that long either, specially when you have a core of 3-5 players for 10 years, the others are almost forced out because they did "good" on a great team and are looking for minutes and money the Spurs can't offer or because they didn't do good and are looking for a better situation.

yah a lot of the big men you said were already established veterans or really too old to "develop". you couldnt really work on horry, mcdyess, or even really oberto. and you also gotta realize that tolliver is on the twolves, of course he'll keep a solid job. idk though maybe youre right, but not the best point by mentioning horry or mcdyess

[maddnezz]

shaq and J. O Neal are old....Don't forget injury prone...Tyson chandler is a whimp and I didn't see Brendon Haywood do anything against the spurs in the play offs last season...Mahinmi is a whimp too
Your avatar....is hot like fish grease bro!:king

[Maddog]

The Spurs demand a lot from their Bigs with regards to switching and rotating.
Bonner does a pretty decent job of doing that, although his lack of atheleticism hinders him.
The Jury is still out on Mahinmi- I think he still has promise but if and when he realizes it, it will be too late to help this team.
Last night 3 fouls in 9 minutes!

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I don't think it's Pop, it's just good bigs are harder to come by. Ask yourself this question, who in the league develops good bigs?


That's what I was wondering myself. There may well be a program or two out there that has a record of success, but I'm not thinking of it off the top of my head.

A failure to recognize talent is maybe a valid complaint. The Butler contract (and subsequent loss of Scola to clear it) stack up as two of the bigger blunders in the Duncan era. And yet would probably compare well to any team's contracts with big men recent years.

It's just the reality of picking from an already limited pool (what % of people are physically large enough to play PF/C in the NBA, much less possess the skills) compounded by using limited funds or resources (late draft picks and small contract offers for guys most teams overpay for).

Pop's bigger problem may be just expecting too much. The Spurs system puts a heavy defensive demand on big men and with rule changes only encouraging more and more perimeter players to attack the rim any deficiencies get shown very quickly in that system. Maybe you could call it a lack of patience. Either way, my take is that it's tough to say Pop's bad at it without a firm definition of who is good at it.

[SpursDynasty85]

The players you all mentioned cannot be taken in to consideration when talking about Pop's ability to develop a big.

Tim Duncan
Matt Bonner
Ian Mahinmi
Dejuan Blair
Tiago Splitter

are the only ones you can consider.

I think he's done a crappy job with Matt Bonner, Ian Mahinmi.

Blair is doing fine, but even Pop said he did coach the guy at all his rookie year. This year, Blair is having a down year thus far.

Tiago Splitter we should give him one season to see how he gets incorporated in the NBA.

All in all, not a good track record so far except Timmy. But Timmy was the 2nd best pf when he entered the league and DROB can be attributed his a lot of his success also.

Pop gets a C+ from me so far...

[jjktkk]

The players you all mentioned cannot be taken in to consideration when talking about Pop's ability to develop a big.

Tim Duncan
Matt Bonner
Ian Mahinmi
Dejuan Blair
Tiago Splitter

are the only ones you can consider.

I think he's done a crappy job with Matt Bonner, Ian Mahinmi.

Blair is doing fine, but even Pop said he did coach the guy at all his rookie year. This year, Blair is having a down year thus far.

Tiago Splitter we should give him one season to see how he gets incorporated in the NBA.

All in all, not a good track record so far except Timmy. But Timmy was the 2nd best pf when he entered the league and DROB can be attributed his a lot of his success also.

Pop gets a C+ from me so far...

IMO, out of your list, the only debate can be Mahmni. And I still need to see alot more from Mahimni before I would I'd give out a grade. As for Bonner, if your being realistic, what can Pop do to make Bonner a better player? Develop Bonner's post game? That would be a waste of time. Bonner is a big man just because of his height. Bonner plays hard, but is limited athletically. Other than making sure Bonner knows his offensive and defensive plays, theres not a whole lot of coaching you could do for Bonner. Blair is still a work in progress, so its too early to throw out a grade for him IMO. For obvious reasons, therse no need to debate Pop's coaching job for DROB, and Duncan. Every other big man thats played for the Spurs under Pop were just role players and usually vets that were at the end of their career.

[SpursDynasty85]

As for Bonner, if your being realistic, what can Pop do to make Bonner a better player? Develop Bonner's post game? That would be a waste of time. Bonner is a big man just because of his height. Bonner plays hard, but is limited athletically. Other than making sure Bonner knows his offensive and defensive plays, theres not a whole lot of coaching you could do for Bonner.


If Bonner is going to get 20-30 mpg Bonner needs to work on every facet of the game. I call a fail grade on Bonner because Pop plays him at the 4 or 5 and the only thing he has developed is a 3 pointer.

[DMC]

What ex-SA big has gone to another team and helped them win a championship?

Any NBA player can post stats and look like a beast in the right setting, but Pop is about wins.

There haven't been any notable bigs to come to SA as young undeveloped players since... since... Duncan actually. I mean, the rest came from other squads. To call Duncan undeveloped is like calling Avery Johnson a great coach.

[DMC]

If Bonner is going to get 20-30 mpg Bonner needs to work on every facet of the game. I call a fail grade on Bonner because Pop plays him at the 4 or 5 and the only thing he has developed is a 3 pointer.

I have to agree here with a caveat: Bonner does not have the ability to develop his inside game. He's an oaf anywhere besides the arc. That one dribble he makes instead of shooting is the bane of the Spurs' offense when he's out there, and his quick accurate 3 is the only consolation. We all know when he steps inside after that one dribble, it's probably going to end up as a transition basket at the other end. He's surprised me a few times, but I cringe when Matty puts the ball on the floor.

[jjktkk]

If Bonner is going to get 20-30 mpg Bonner needs to work on every facet of the game. I call a fail grade on Bonner because Pop plays him at the 4 or 5 and the only thing he has developed is a 3 pointer.

Thats true to a certain extent, but a good coach knows his players limitations. So, for example, if Pop was continually trying to make Bonner a post player, that would be idiotic IMO, since thats not Bonner's game. Bonner's game is to space the floor with his 3-point shooting. You can debate if Pop overuses Bonner, thats a legit gripe, but, once again, I go back to a good coach knowing what his players can and cannot realistically do.

[SpursDynasty85]

What ex-SA big has gone to another team and helped them win a championship?

Any NBA player can post stats and look like a beast in the right setting, but Pop is about wins.

There haven't been any notable bigs to come to SA as young undeveloped players since... since... Duncan actually. I mean, the rest came from other squads. To call Duncan undeveloped is like calling Avery Johnson a great coach.

Thats true Duncan wasn't undeveloped. He came in to the league as one of the best big men. The only players that I can remember who came in undeveloped were Rasho,Nazr,Rose,Bonner,Mahinmi,Blair,Splitter.

It doesn't matter whether any of these players actually turned in to a great player. The question is "Is Popovich a good/bad developer of big ment?" From what I see, I don't think hes very good.

[Agloco]

Tim has certainly developed his game, but how much of that is Popovich? Tim's a known gym rat with a huge b-ball IQ, who had his fundamentals developed by a full 4 years of college.

I see a clear pattern of our big men not improving. Is Pop bad at developing/integrating big men? Should the SAS organization consider bringing in a specialist big man coach?

Sure. When it does work out, it's the players natural ability. When it doesn't, well that's on the coaching staff. :rolleyes

[DMC]

There's a term called "role player". Pop knows this and he uses these players as such. Not all NBA caliber players can be developed into Tim Duncans or David Robinsons. That doesn't mean they cannot play a valuable role. Of course, the Spurs (not just Pop) could simply become a farm for developing big guys at the expense of winning basketball games. They could just put people like Ian and Pops on the floor in big games during crunch time to see how they do, but then they wouldn't have near the success they have now.

They use their bigs just fine in the half court set, but today's Spurs are a running team, and bigs don't fit real well.

Now, the answer to the question has to address the fact that there are only a small handful of good bigs in the league, and the odds that some will end up on the Spurs roster early on is a long shot, especially since good, developmental bigs go early in the draft.

[silverblackfan]

Honestly, Pop doesn't have to be a great coach of big men. He has Tim Duncan training the whole damn squad. As long as the player will listen and respond without a lot of attitude, its a done deal.