Barkley: Ginobili is the best international player of all time

[MmP]

pWFN1PjN1to
I don't know if it was posted, but Barkley and Kenny Smith were discussing last night on who is best foreign player of all time.

Kenny Smith picks Dirk, Charles picks Manu.

IMHO neither is the best of all time. Manu is such a great competitor, his lacks on offense are compensated by his effort and will to win which are probably what makes him so great. Every night he amaze me even more on how badly he wants to win. I don't know where the hell he learned to played like that.
He might be the most complete player in the NBA, the most versatile in terms of being useful to a team but I don't know if he qualifies as the best of all time. Maybe he does, and Im wrong. Certainly he deserves the discussion though. But if there's anything he's the best at is the effort to win.

Dirk is just a great offensive player but he's won nothing and he's D-less.

[024]

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

[Man In Black]

IMHO Opinion...
Tim Duncan!
But Manu is a close 2nd. Like Tim, he plays both sides of the court.

Why Tim Duncan? Since the NBA has him officially listed as an International Player, then I can say Tim. When Tim first decided to play for the USA Senior National Men's Team in 1996, there wasn't a USVI National Men's team at the time. FIBA Rules are such that once you play for a Senior National Team, you cannot switch. When 2004 came around and the US Olympic Team was scheduled to play the USVI, Tim sat that one out.

[DMC]

Most think Drazen was the best.

[DMC]

Calling Tim an international player is like calling Kobe one.

I don't think anyone who attended 4 years of college in the US and is a citizen of the US should be considered an international player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

no sabonis?

[Man In Black]

Actually most remember Drazen as being one of the first, and most certainly, the first to make an impact. Then of course Detlef Schrempf.

The Suns brought in the first Eastern Bloc Euro player in Georgi Glouchkov in 1985-1986. He was Bulgarian and I used to hear stories about him chain smoking right up until warm-ups, light up at half-time, and then light up again once the game was over. He didn't do much for Phoenix, but he was the 1st.

[benefactor]

Sabonis is likely better than both. He just showed up in the NBA too late.

[suitedkings]

Tough argument.

Ginobilis got the hardware to back his case.

[Man In Black]

Calling Tim an international player is like calling Kobe one.

I don't think anyone who attended 4 years of college in the US and is a citizen of the US should be considered an international player.

You can't change your nationality or place of birth on a whim. You are who you are.

The US Virgin Islands, like Puerto Rico are part of the US but given their own special consideration. There is a Puerto Rican National Team. If Carlos Arroyo is considered an International then why can't Tim Duncan be considered the same?
Remember, Arroyo spent 4 years at an American University. So, me calling Tim an International is DIFFERENT because the NBA defined the criteria.

http://www.nba.com/news/2010-11-international-players/index.html
U.S. Virgin Islands Raja Bell Jazz
U.S. Virgin Islands Tim Duncan Spurs

[lil_penny]

no sabonis?

sabonis and drazen are both big what ifs.. neither had the chance to showcase in there prime what they could do, one was taken too early the other was here too late. they had potential to be the greatest ones though. but as for dirk or manu, thats a good argument either way imo.

but yea drazen was a scoring and highlight machine and sabas was un real in his prime the ultimate big man and player, even as a old fart he did some amazing things:lol

[Man In Black]

He had a chance to be great, except for his reckless style of play which greatly shortened his career, Sarunas Marciulionis was Manu before Manu minus the El Latigo Dribble Move and the passing vision.

Here's a decent list of Euros who were good in the NBA.
http://live.drjays.com/index.php/2010/10/13/europeans-in-the-nba-the-first-generation/

[SenorSpur]

no sabonis?

Did anybody see this guy in his prime?

Mercy!

[ElNono]

Probably Hakeem was the best, but every one of those guys brought something different to the table in different times.

[Man In Black]

I saw Sabas play.

Here's an old article for what Mike Fratello saw of him from some time back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-05/sports/sp-1527_1_nba-players

[Man In Black]

Hakeem Olajuwon....wow. I still got Tim at #1 but The Dream is 1-a, Ginobili is 1-b.

[galvatron3000]

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

[bluebellmaniac]

Charles is the best, love the TNT coverage. When Ernie called out Hakeem as probably a better foreign player to Charles, he switched his question to "the best European..." ... LOL!!!

Go Argentina!!!

LOL!!!

:-D

[cd98]

1 hard to tell how good Sabonis was b/c he never plated vs NBA comp until late oblige when he didn't impress; can't just assume his physical gifts would translate;

2 Drazen was a great jump shooter like a young Peja but Manu is much, much more

3 Detlef was a marginally good player but no Manu

4 Dirk is every bit as good as Manu and probably better, but never had a TD or a TP

[Whisky Dog]

If you're counting Timmy as American then it's Olajuwon. I'd put Manu and Dirk next.

Drazen might have been the best scorer, but his defense was lacking.

[ploto]

Manu has never had to play in the NBA without Duncan as a teammate. That obviously contributes to his success.

I would pick Hakeem no contest- unless by international you mean players who did not go to college in the US, as well.

[Hemotivo]

Hakeem Abdul

[Blake]

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

I didnt watch vid, but i think CB also thought that Duncan and Hakeem don't count since they played for team USA.

[superfedja]

Drazen Petrovic is the greatest european player to ever play the game of basketball ... he didnt have the greatest career cuz it was cut short .... but he was a better player than dirk or manu ... he was droppin 40+ pts on jordan, dumars and pippen .... all who were considered the best defenders of their time ... I doubt Manu could drop 40+ vs Lebron or Kobe and Dirk can't drop 40+ pts vs Duncan or Garnett .... maybe they could but not as consistently as Drazen could

hakeem went to college in the US and played for the US national team ... he doesn't deserve to be in this conversation

[ATXSPUR]

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

What's you issue with afro-american players? I don't see what that has to do with the discussion of greatest international player of all time.

[ATXSPUR]

BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.

[Nathan Explosion]

If you want to really count the international players, it's Tim or Hakeem in a landslide. No other player comes close. Patrick Ewing also counts (Jamaica), but he wasn't the caliber of Tim and Hakeem.

If you want to only count players that played in Europe before coming to the US, the I can see Gino and Dirk being in the conversation. However, Gino isn't a European player because he's from Argentina. But saying European players is most commonly referred to someone who played in the Euro leagues (like Splitter too).

[kuato]

1 hard to tell how good Sabonis was b/c he never plated vs NBA comp until late oblige when he didn't impress; can't just assume his physical gifts would translate;

2 Drazen was a great jump shooter like a young Peja but Manu is much, much more

3 Detlef was a marginally good player but no Manu

4 Dirk is every bit as good as Manu and probably better, but never had a TD or a TP

Dirk is not an all aroud player, Manu can do everything on a basketball court, even feed hist team mates and contribute without having the ball in his hands.

[silverblackfan]

BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.

Living in Portland at the time I saw a quite a few games with Sabonis. To say he was a good passer is an understatement. Great hands, touch, and BB IQ. Fun to watch with his passes as Manu is. And he was a big guy. Unfortunately his knees were shot and it was the end of this career.

[cutewizard]

pWFN1PjN1to
I don't know if it was posted, but Barkley and Kenny Smith were discussing last night on who is best foreign player of all time.

Kenny Smith picks Dirk, Charles picks Manu.

IMHO neither is the best of all time. Manu is such a great competitor, his lacks on offense are compensated by his effort and will to win which are probably what makes him so great. Every night he amaze me even more on how badly he wants to win. I don't know where the hell he learned to played like that.
He might be the most complete player in the NBA, the most versatile in terms of being useful to a team but I don't know if he qualifies as the best of all time. Maybe he does, and Im wrong. Certainly he deserves the discussion though. But if there's anything he's the best at is the effort to win.

Dirk is just a great offensive player but he's won nothing and he's D-less.



This is like the old Wilt vs Russell debate...........


I love Wilt but i have to say, Russell was the greatest



The most talented international player of all time was

Arvydas Sabonis, the complete center , the POINt center!!!!



but i have to say,

that Manu is the greatest! the ferocious desire to win

[jjktkk]

I remember NBA people saying that Sabonis, before his knee injuries, was a bigger, more athletic, Larry Bird.

[Darthkiller]

drazen was basicly the croatian version of manu, with a better 3 point shot and less drviing ability.

[Darthkiller]

I remember NBA people saying that Sabonis, before his knee injuries, was a bigger, more athletic, Larry Bird.

wtf , are u serious.

sabonis was a center, bird was a point guard(forward).

[OrEmuN]

The word "foreign" and "international" needs planty of defining. Foreign to who and in what sense ? Hakeem/Duncan kinda foreign or Manu/Dirk type?
International ? Best international player might be Jordan since he played in Olympics, etc. International as in country v country competition

For this debate, i guess a better baromenter is someone who has played in other leagues as well as NBA in order to qualify. In that case, Manu v Dirk will be the correct matchup. Manu just edge it for me ... with all the hardware and for being a non-choker.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Manu doesn't really have the stats to back up being the best.

That said, if I have to assemble a team to win one game, or one series, and have to pick one international player ( don't count Tim, Hakeem ), then I'd take Manu, no questions asked. Dirk is great, but when his shot's not falling he's not helping much, whereas even if Manu's shot is off you know he'll still find multiple ways to contribute.

[DAF86]

Manu is in the same tier with Nowitzki, NBA fans just don't realize it 'cause he has spent his whole career as a role player.

[Deimosfobos]

I doubt Manu could drop 40+ vs Lebron or Kobe

Manu is not a all offensive player, like Drazen Petrovic was, but he is a lot more complete.

And he did score +40 points vs Lebron once if I'm not wrong and he scored +30 vs Kobe a few times... quite impressive when your are not the first option of the team if you ask me (this is the first year Manu is unquestionably the number 1 option).
Also, the spurs where up to this year, a slow team, no the greatest place to score +40.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how about andrew gaze? olympics n wc he was postin up big ppg

[Bruno]

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

[poop]

ahhahahahahaha, Dirt is a great shooter. one of the best of all-time.

but...being 7-foot and shooting well over guys 8-icnes shorter than you is a far cry from the skillset Manu provides;

Manu is FAR better than Dirt as far as skills and talent, clutch ability, intangibles, overall Winning go.

[wildbill2u]

I saw Sabas play.

Here's an old article for what Mike Fratello saw of him from some time back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-05/sports/sp-1527_1_nba-players


Great players don't get bored or lazy about their game. The greatest players play just as hard in a laugher as a squeaker because it is their character, not just their skills, that set them above the rest.

[Texas_Ranger]

Drazen could score 40 but he would let JR and Afllalo score 50.

[diego]

IMO by the strictest definition of international, Hakeem is 1a and Tim is 1b.
if you only consider guys who arrived to the NBA as pros, then Dirk gets the nod. IMO both Pau and Manu are not far behind him. Also, I think Dirk is such an unconventional player that sometimes the matchup mismatches he creates can be more detrimental than beneficial, and because of that for certain teams Pau and Manu who play their positions in a more traditional style can be a better fit. But overall talent level Dirk is better than both, its just extremely rare for a guy his size to be that coordinated. he is extremely efficient and extremely consistent, Pau and Manu are better all around but Dirk's scoring advantage is too much for them to overcome.

[E-RockWill]

When you consider international play, Manu is clearly the best.

[Agloco]

I've got as much man-love for Manu as the next guy, but I've gotta disagree.

Chuck fails miserably here. He's still my boy though.

[Josepatches_]

My ranking from Europe is next.

Sabonis.He was the best in Europe in the mid-90's and he wasn't in his prime.His knees were broken since 1987.

Manu was a big star here but he never was as dominant as Sabas was.

Petrovic was a beast in Europe.He had more than one game with 60 points playing euroleague.He had the best talent but he didn't play enough time in the NBA.In New Jersey he had 2 seasons over 20 ppg (20,6 and 22,3) but he was 28 and 29.His prime was over.


Imo Petrovic or Sabas still being the best players of the history from Europe but Dirk or Pau are pretty close.Same Manu but he's from South America.

Kukoc,Divac or TP were/is one step behind but close to them.

Players like Stojakovic or Radjawould be next along Navarro,Bodiroga,Djordjevic or Papaloukas .

Now there are young players like Teodosic who could be in my ranking in the future.

Danilovic,Marciulonis,Herreros,San Epifanio....some of them has to be in my list too

[Dartherus]

Manu has never had to play in the NBA without Duncan as a teammate. That obviously contributes to his success.

I would pick Hakeem no contest- unless by international you mean players who did not go to college in the US, as well.
By being strictly logical, International player should exclude any player who was in any of the dream teams, no matter if he was born outside USA.....

That should rule out players like Tim, Kobe or the Dream....

I haven't read the whole thread, butr the few posts read say me that you're forgetting a really international player STEVE NASH...who would be in the same league as Manu or Dirk.

[will_spurs]

I also noticed the strange fact that nobody was talking about Nash.

It's always going to be hard comparing guys like Dirk and Manu because their roles have always been different. If Manu was option #1 on a team of scrubs I'm not sure he would do much. I really love having Manu on the Spurs because of his intangibles, but if others didn't carry the load for 47 minutes there would be no Manu antics in the clutch.

[DieHardSpursFan1537]

Yes!

[Spurminator]

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

This.

[BlairForceDejuan]

If you HAVE to win, you put MANU in over Dirk. Manu will come up with something big whether it be a defensive steal/stop/keeping ball inbounds/charge or a shot/offensive play.

Dirk is an amazing shooter, but Manu is 10000000% heart. He could be a quadruple amputee and still do something to contribute.

[Pero]

You can't change your nationality or place of birth on a whim. You are who you are.

The US Virgin Islands, like Puerto Rico are part of the US but given their own special consideration. There is a Puerto Rican National Team. If Carlos Arroyo is considered an International then why can't Tim Duncan be considered the same?
Remember, Arroyo spent 4 years at an American University. So, me calling Tim an International is DIFFERENT because the NBA defined the criteria.


Gee I don't know, maybe because Arroyo actually plays for Puerto Rico and not the US?

[DAF86]

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

Really? All 17 of them?

[rascal]

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

You swap manu for Dirk and you have Duncan and Dirk together. Thats a tough combo on the frontline. The spurs are deep in the backcourt, Hill and Anderson can take the minutes at the 2. Can't pass up Dirk for Manu.

[ploto]

By being strictly logical, International player should exclude any player who was in any of the dream teams, no matter if he was born outside USA.....

That should rule out players like Tim, Kobe or the Dream....


I think becoming a naturalized citizen at the age of 30 makes one an international player.

[SpursDynasty85]

Gee I don't know, maybe because Arroyo actually plays for Puerto Rico and not the US?

There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams. - Thank god he didn't, he would have been the anchor of those teams and shortened his career even further.

But back to manu or Dirk? I would say Dirk because he is 7 feet tall and ungaurdable. Manu is the same way, but he has to work much harder to do those things on the court. Although I say its very very close. The way Manu can do all things on the court is just amazing, but you know Dirk can hit 3's all day where as Manu can do what he does for certain parts of the game.

[Texas_Ranger]

Petrovic was a beast in Europe.He had more than one game with 60 points playing euroleague.He had the best talent but he didn't play enough time in the NBA.In New Jersey he had 2 seasons over 20 ppg (20,6 and 22,3) but he was 28 and 29.His prime was over.


MJ won his first ring when he was 28. Dražen was in his prime and would be a great player at least until 33. He was a great shooter and I see him just as Ray Allen who is also old, but is still one of the best shooters in this league.

[BillMc]

Not sure where they go on the list but Gasol, Nash, Mutombo and our own Tony Parker should also be mentioned.

[Mel_13]

There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams.

They did and he didn't.

The Virgin Islands have had a national basketball for decades. In fact, the Virgin Islands NT was in the same group as the US team led by Duncan at the 2003 FIBA Americas championship. The two teams met on August 23, 2003 with the Duncan-led Americans defeating the VI by a score of 113-55.

[Pero]

There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams. - Thank god he didn't, he would have been the anchor of those teams and shortened his career even further.


Had he played for the Virgin Islands then I probably would've considered him an international player, but the fact that he hasn't, that he played for the US national team and that he played for 4 years in the NCAA and the rest of his life in the NBA makes him not an international player in my book.

[Agloco]

The Manu/Dirk argument depends on what your team needs at the time. You can't compare Dirk and Manu straight up though........ lots of bad comparisons being drawn here.

[roycrikside]

There is no right answer. It depends on how you define it. If you count strictly any player born outside of the U.S., then it's Duncan first, then Hakeem and everyone else is a distant third.

If you say any player who attended an American university doesn't count (meaning Nash and Ewing too) then it's a different conversation, and Sabonis and Petrovic would be considered.

However, if you define it strictly as foreign born players who didn't attend a US university and who are judged strictly on what they've done in the NBA and nothing else...

then it's between Dirk, Pau and Manu, period. IMO, they're all very close and the argument of who's the best between them changes almost daily. Manu is the most complete, but he almost has to be by definition because he's a swingman.

I'd just say Dirk's the best scorer/shooter, Pau's the best big and Manu's the best all-around/clutch player and leave it at that. I guess it's a cop-out.

[Bruno]

Really? All 17 of them?

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

[ffadicted]

love me some gino, but dirk is better

[SpursDynasty85]

They did and he didn't.

The Virgin Islands have had a national basketball for decades. In fact, the Virgin Islands NT was in the same group as the US team led by Duncan at the 2003 FIBA Americas championship. The two teams met on August 23, 2003 with the Duncan-led Americans defeating the VI by a score of 113-55.


I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics. I don't know. I'm probably wrong about this.

But once Tim Duncan stepped into uniform for the US national team, he was no longer eligible to play for his Virgin Islands team. I also remember in that interview Tim Duncan saying he would have loved to play for the Virgin Islands basketball team because his friends were all on the team and it hurt him to beat them.

It was a real television source like TNT or NBC. I just can't find any videos or anything on it on the internet.

[Pero]

I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics. I don't know. I'm probably wrong about this.


Probably they meant that they aren't good enough to get to the Olympics and/or do anything there.

[Mel_13]

I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics.

That's not what you initially said. You said that he played for the American team because there was no team from the VI.

[SpursDynasty85]

That's not what you initially said. You said that he played for the American team because there was no team from the VI.


Yea. I was definitely wrong. The reason why he chose U.S team over the V.I team wasn't very clear, and I dont remember exactly. The point I was trying to make was that Duncan said he would have chose to play with the V.I had he the opportunity. I thought the V.I didnt' have a team, I guess I was wrong.

[SpursDynasty85]

Probably they meant that they aren't good enough to get to the Olympics and/or do anything there.


That would make Duncan seem like a Lebron-type bandwagoner. I don't think Duncan would do that, but again, I could be wrong.

[jjktkk]

wtf , are u serious.

sabonis was a center, bird was a point guard(forward).

Yes, I am serious.

[Martin R]

Tim Duncan plays for the US National Team, that makes him from the US.

[will_spurs]

If you HAVE to win, you put MANU in over Dirk. Manu will come up with something big whether it be a defensive steal/stop/keeping ball inbounds/charge or a shot/offensive play.

Or Manu will foul Dirk and the Spurs will lose the WC finals :lol

[DAF86]

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

Well, Dirk might be better but I don't think he is way better than Manu, IMO they're both in the tier behind the superstars, if Manu would have had the chance of beign a go to guy in his prime I know for sure that he would have been succesful, Spurs fans should know that Ginobili is underrated.

And Dirk is one of the greatest shooters of all-time but I think he's a little overrated because of this, people look at this part of his game in awe and overlook the fact that he's a below average rebounder (for a star PF), defender and passer (for any kind of player).

Disclaimer: I'm talking about the Dirk we got 'till this season, the 47% shooter, if he keeps his current crazy efficiency through the whole season he more than makes up for his shortcomings in other areas and should be the MVP.

[sandman]

Tim Duncan plays for the US National Team, that makes him from the US.

No, Duncan is from the USVI. Everyone from the USVI have US citizenship from birth. He has been a US citizen his entire life. That is irrelevant from which national team he played for at the Olympics.

[tbear280]

fuck Chuck & kenny. kenny Smith only has a title cuz he was riding the rockets bench behind Olajuwan, Drexler, Horry, Maxwell, Thorpe, & Ellie. Chuck couldn't get it done and then tried to do it with the rockets but still coulnd'nt get it done. They dont know shit about shit.

[polandprzem]

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

I can send you my photo because I disagree.

[smrattler]

Just ask yourself, if you had your choice of each in their prime, who would you take, in what order:

Hakeem
Dirk
Draz
Manu
Sabonis (the young one)
Nash
Pau Gasol
Zarko


I don't add Timmy to the list, but go ahead if you want to.

I think most GMs would take Hakeem because of the position he played and he's a game changer on both ends, an inside dominant player.

[DMC]

Now ask yourself who you would want with the lead and 13 seconds on the clock. Then ask yourself who you would want with the ball with a 1 point deficit and 13 seconds on the clock.

I would take Manu in both situations.

I think we need to stop classifying players as "international", especially when they have played in this league for 10 years. I understand the previous desire to do so when these guys were just starting to filter into the mix, but now it's like baseball. A good player is just that, regardless of where he's from. They all learn from Better Basketball staring JJ Reddick, probably the best shooter the NBA's ever seen.

[dbestpro]

If Charles is basing his assessment on championships then he is absolutely right.

[jag]

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

This

[Kool Bob Love]

IMO the best international player of all time
1a. MANU
1b. PARKER
2. Who gives a shit.

[smeagol]

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

Manu's a winner; Dirk is a loser.

That is their main difference.

And comparing a 7 footer with a guard is stupid.

[Cane]

Imo Manu's NBA career just doesn't stack up since he's patriotic to Argentina. Who knows what kind of numbers and awards a younger, rested, and healthy Ginobili could've put up (however Manu's PER and advanced stats are among the leagues' best)...instead he was winning and sacrificing his body for Argentina in addition to San Antonio. Then again having multiple NBA championships, Olympic Gold, etc is nothing to scoff at. I also agree with the point that the Spurs Big 3 would be hailed as HOF gods in a larger market like NY's but thats what happens in cities with a huge media infrastructure and great pride.

With the game on the line he'd be my go-to international guy though. Manu's clutch game is one of the best that the sport of basketball has ever seen.

[Frankie23]

If you watch the video posted, you will realized why Duncan or even Hakeem shouldn't be considered. They played in US college, and then NBA.
They are talking about players that played overseas before the NBA.. So it's between Drazen, Manu, Dirk, Sabonis and even Gasol. (i'm sorry if i'm forgeting someone here)

[Pero]

And comparing a 7 footer with a guard is stupid.

As is saying that Dirk's a loser. He might not be the winner Manu is but he's no loser.

[smeagol]

As is saying that Dirk's a loser. He might not be the winner Manu is but he's no loser.

Define loser please.

[tmtcsc]

Most think Drazen was the best.

He didn't play long enough to be considered. He was a great offensive player but did he have a complete game ? I don't think so.

Plus, just to play along, what about Olajuwon ? The guy was amazing.

For me it's Ginobili. Dirk makes a strong case but Manu's resume of being a winner outdoes Dirk by a long shot.

[gospursgojas]

Drazen was an awesome shooter but sadly I have to give him a INCOMPLETE.

1.Dream
2.Manu
3.Dirk

[Pero]

Define loser please.

LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

[Pero]

He didn't play long enough to be considered. He was a great offensive player but did he have a complete game ? I don't think so.

Plus, just to play along, what about Olajuwon ? The guy was amazing.

For me it's Ginobili. Dirk makes a strong case but Manu's resume of being a winner outdoes Dirk by a long shot.

Olajuwon shouldn't be considered an international player either.

For me, Dirk is the best international player in the NBA ever. Petrovic is a what could have been, we'll never know. I guess I'd put Manu second, but if he was as durable as Dirk and the main option he'd probably be first.

[Hooks]

1. Manu
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan
and Dylan.

[Martin R]

No, Duncan is from the USVI. Everyone from the USVI have US citizenship from birth. He has been a US citizen his entire life. That is irrelevant from which national team he played for at the Olympics.

I thought once you choose to play for one of your "possible teams" you can not play for the other NT anymore.
I never ever heard jounalist referring to TD as "real" a foreign player.

[spursfan1000]

Tim Duncan is the best, you must be a fool to think Dirk or Manu are best ever,

[smeagol]

Tim Duncan is the best, you must be a fool to think Dirk or Manu are best ever,

Duncan is as foreign as Kobe or LeBron

[smeagol]

LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

Dirk has been surrounded by stars and a couple of All stars. He's had all kinds of good players around him and he has never won a championship. His team has been knocked out of the playoffs by the 8th seed when they were the 1st seed and by the 7th when they were the 2nd.

He might not be a loser in the complete meaning of the word, but he is pretty damn close . . .

Manu, OTOH, is a complete winner. He's won it all. And he is a more fierce competitor than Dirk. Again, it is difficult to compare two players that play different positions and have different skill sets. In any case, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

[Nathan Explosion]

I don't think you can define which player is better because they play different positions. Dirk is more of a mismatch, but Gino has more intangibles. Dirk has size, but Gino has heart. Dirk has been the man on his team and has lead them to many wins, but Gino has more hardware, both, NBA, Olympics, WC, and Euro leagues. That last point to me would provide some separation between to the two in my opinion.

By the one other thing I think that really separates the two is that Gino is more of a creator. Dirk is good at drawing the double and kicking out to an open man, but Gino is better with the ball in his hands and creating on his own to get his team open shots.

I know what you're thinking, that it's because Gino is a guard and Dirk is a big man, but I'd consider Duncan a creator as well. He could initiate the offense from the block. I don't think Dirk is the initiator on offense the way Duncan is, and Gino is asked to be at times.

And the reason I didn't include Nash is because he's so limited on defense that he can't be possibly in contention for best ever. The guy is a a talent, and cold blooded in the clutch, but as much of a hassle as he is on offense, he's that big of a liability on defense. And the guy is really fucking good on offense, so that should tell you what a bad defender he is.

[widowmaker]

Yo I didn't want to start a thread on this but I'm going to the game tomorrow and I have a quick question. What time do they let people file into the AT&T center on gameday?

[Frankie23]

Who was the first team to beat an NBA US team? Argentina (Manu MVP)
Who beat them again in a olympics semifinal? Argentina (Manu MVP)
These 2 achievement were done by only 1 team in the history of the game with Manu being the centerpiece.
Rings? 3
I think there's only 2 players that won NBA, Euroleague and olympic gold.. Manu is one of them..

[Vito Corleone]

Dream, end of discussion. here is how I would judge this. Take very guy mentioned at the peak of their game and then ask the question who would be taken first in the draft. Easily no one would pass on Dream.

How anyone can not think Hakeem is not foreign is beyond me. Dude was born and raised in Nigera, just because he played college ball in the United states does not make him a American. He was still foreign and thus must get not only consideration but he was by far the best.

Timmy is from the Virgin Island, which we all know is a US territory and thus not a foreign country.

[ploto]

Or Manu will foul Dirk and the Spurs will lose the WC finals :lol

I was waiting for someone to mention that!

I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

[temujin]

LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

Spanoulis has won more that Nowitski.

And he has done this by carrying his team.

The entire professional career of Mr Dirk Novitski will be spent trying, in vain, to win something.
Just anything, in fact.

He's a sad case.

I don't list Nowiski in the top 10 of all time Euro players.

[temujin]

Duncan is as foreign as Kobe or LeBron

Duncan is fluent in english only, while Bryant's italian is formally better than his english.

[smeagol]

I was waiting for someone to mention that!

I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

Has Dirk won anything with Germany?

[Pero]

Spanoulis has won more that Nowitski.

And he has done this by carrying his team.

The entire professional career of Mr Dirk Novitski will be spent trying, in vain, to win something.
Just anything, in fact.

He's a sad case.

I don't list Nowiski in the top 10 of all time Euro players.

LOL are you kidding me???? :lmao
Greek players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>German players

[Pero]

Has Dirk won anything with Germany?

Bronze medal in the 2002 world championship and silver medal in 2005 Eurobasket.

[Pero]

Dirk has been surrounded by stars and a couple of All stars. He's had all kinds of good players around him and he has never won a championship. His team has been knocked out of the playoffs by the 8th seed when they were the 1st seed and by the 7th when they were the 2nd.

He might not be a loser in the complete meaning of the word, but he is pretty damn close . . .

Manu, OTOH, is a complete winner. He's won it all. And he is a more fierce competitor than Dirk. Again, it is difficult to compare two players that play different positions and have different skill sets. In any case, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

I guess I somewhat agree with that but Dirk=franchise player, Manu=2nd/3rd player (till this season I suppose).

[Pero]

Dream, end of discussion. here is how I would judge this. Take very guy mentioned at the peak of their game and then ask the question who would be taken first in the draft. Easily no one would pass on Dream.

How anyone can not think Hakeem is not foreign is beyond me. Dude was born and raised in Nigera, just because he played college ball in the United states does not make him a American. He was still foreign and thus must get not only consideration but he was by far the best.

Timmy is from the Virgin Island, which we all know is a US territory and thus not a foreign country.

US college, US NBA, US national team = his baskeball life is completely for/in US = not foreign.

[Bukefal]

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu




I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

+1


I understand Manu Is very popular, Spurs fans see him as a god and Is almost everybody's favorite, but come on. Dirk Is a better player than Manu. Yes Manu has accomplished more with his national team but that does not mean he Is a better player than Dirk.

Duncan Is not considered an International player Imo, the Virgin Islands are part of the USA and he also played for team USA.

If Hakeem Is considered as International, and I think he should be, then he Is the best International player. Yes he too, played for team USA, but In contrary to Duncan, he does not come from US territory.

Drazen was really a great International player, maybe the best, but unfortunatelly we did not get the chance to see that and he did not get the chance to prove It. :(

[polandprzem]

I don't think you can define which player is better because they play different positions.

the most ridiculous thing ever


Haw can't you?

And how can you compare the players on the same positions when they played in different environment with different surrounding and with different roles and in different times?

[Killakobe81]

IMO by the strictest definition of international, Hakeem is 1a and Tim is 1b.
if you only consider guys who arrived to the NBA as pros, then Dirk gets the nod. IMO both Pau and Manu are not far behind him. Also, I think Dirk is such an unconventional player that sometimes the matchup mismatches he creates can be more detrimental than beneficial, and because of that for certain teams Pau and Manu who play their positions in a more traditional style can be a better fit. But overall talent level Dirk is better than both, its just extremely rare for a guy his size to be that coordinated. he is extremely efficient and extremely consistent, Pau and Manu are better all around but Dirk's scoring advantage is too much for them to overcome.

Great post. I agree 100%. many spur fans seem to underrate dirk and overrate Manu. dont get me wrong i have mad respect for Manu and i think he is more clutch (though dirk is clutch too) and his overall game is better than dirk by far and even Pau ...but dirk has the most impact on a game over 48 mins. then either guy. And is the best player of the 3 ... even if his main value is scoring.

[temujin]

LOL are you kidding me???? :lmao
Greek players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>German players

You probably don't know the difference between a player that just piles up numbers and a player that wins it.

The ball just doesn't weigh the same way in the FIRST and in the FINAL minute of an important, close game.

Dirk Nowitski is the champion of the FIRST minute of the irrelevant game.
Probably the best ever.

NOT of the final minute of an important one.

Dallas has changed just about anybody during this last decade of spectacular luxury tax failures, except two persons:
Cuban
Nowitski.

Do the math.

So, yes there are AT least 3 or 4 GREEK players I would pick BEFORE Nowitski, historically (Galis first, of course), if I wanted to start winning something relevant.
A couple of French (Parker one), a couple of Spaniards, a couple of Lithuanians, one Italian, one Russian, two Croatians and at least 5 Serbs.

That's 14, already.

And I am only talking Euros here.

[lefty]

Ginobliiiiiiiiiiii!!!!

[temujin]

+1


I understand Manu Is very popular, Spurs fans see him as a god and Is almost everybody's favorite, but come on. Dirk Is a better player than Manu. Yes Manu has accomplished more with his national team but that does not mean he Is a better player than Dirk.

Duncan Is not considered an International player Imo, the Virgin Islands are part of the USA and he also played for team USA.

If Hakeem Is considered as International, and I think he should be, then he Is the best International player. Yes he too, played for team USA, but In contrary to Duncan, he does not come from US territory.

Drazen was really a great International player, maybe the best, but unfortunatelly we did not get the chance to see that and he did not get the chance to prove It. :(

If Drazen Petrovic's career had ended at 22, he would still be in this discussion.
I will never forget what I saw of him in Sibenik, age 18.

[Manu20]

I love Manu as much as the next guy but Dirk is the better player. I still hate Dirt I mean Dirk lol

[Pero]

You probably don't know the difference between a player that just piles up numbers and a player that wins it.
...
Dallas has changed just about anybody during this last decade of spectacular luxury tax failures, except two persons:
Cuban
Nowitski.

Do the math.

Please... If Manu were there instead of Dirk he wouldn't have won anything in the NBA either (and though not relevant for the NBA, would probably have zero medals in international competition)



So, yes there are AT least 3 or 4 GREEK players I would pick BEFORE Nowitski, historically (Galis first, of course), if I wanted to start winning something relevant.
A couple of French (Parker one), a couple of Spaniards, a couple of Lithuanians, one Italian, one Russian, two Croatians and at least 5 Serbs.

That's 14, already.

And I am only talking Euros here.

You're just being silly. Spanoulis couldn't even make it in the NBA. Parker as the player to build your team around? Maybe, but I'm not convinced he's that good. For some reason everyone is losing the sight of the fact that Dirk is someone you can build your team around, others (except maybe Gasol) aren't.

[lefty]

Manu is more versatile than Dirk

Dirk is just an overrated jump-shooting "big man"

[temujin]

Please... If Manu were there instead of Dirk he wouldn't have won anything in the NBA either (and though not relevant for the NBA, would probably have zero medals in international competition)



You're just being silly. Spanoulis couldn't even make it in the NBA. Parker as the player to build your team around? Maybe, but I'm not convinced he's that good. For some reason everyone is losing the sight of the fact that Dirk is someone you can build your team around, others (except maybe Gasol) aren't.

1) I wrote Galis, not Spanoulis. At any rate, yes, I'd put my last play in the hands of Spanoulis rather than the big Choker.

2) As one of the US sports journalists put it: "If you want a one-on-one context, go for Wade, Lebron, Melo. If you want to win, it's Manu. I'd pick Manu and we will see what happens."

We have seen already.

PS. No mention of Nowitski, whatsoever, obviously.

[Pero]

1) I wrote Galis, not Spanoulis. At any rate, yes, I'd put my last play in the hands of Spanoulis rather than the big Choker.


Sorry my mistake, you mentioned Spanoulis winning more in a previous post. Just because you'd put the ball in someones hands for the last play doesn't mean that player is better than other player. I'd put the ball in Manu's hands on the last play over a bunch of stars, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player than them.




2) As one of the US sports journalists put it: "If you want a one-on-one context, go for Wade, Lebron, Melo. If you want to win, it's Manu. I'd pick Manu and we will see what happens."


And all those players are still better than Manu.

[Pero]

Manu is more versatile than Dirk

Dirk is just an overrated jump-shooting "big man"

Judging by this thread he's underrated...

[temujin]

Sorry my mistake, you mentioned Spanoulis winning more in a previous post. Just because you'd put the ball in someones hands for the last play doesn't mean that player is better than other player. I'd put the ball in Manu's hands on the last play over a bunch of stars, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player than them.




And all those players are still better than Manu.

Amen.

We have a definition of "better" that is different, I guess.
Luckily, Spurs' is more similar to mine.
Cuban' to yours.

[Pero]

We have a definition of "better" that is different, I guess.


I suppose so, there's not really much to discuss if we don't agree that the likes of Wade and LeBron are better than Manu. This is an opinion that I think is in the minority though.

[Old School 44]

I actually think Manu would have been a "franchise" player if in his younger days he played anywhere but San Antonio and for Pop and with TD.

As far as the Dirk vs. Manu, to me it's just a personal preference. There's no denying Dirk's talent, but I'd choose Manu everytime.

[smeagol]

Bronze medal in the 2002 world championship and silver medal in 2005 Eurobasket.

I wouldn't flash that that resume around too much . . . not very impressive . . ..

[Pero]

I wouldn't flash that that resume around too much . . . not very impressive . . ..

Easy to say for someone whose team boasts players like Scola, Delfino, Prigioni, Hermann, Oberto, Nocioni etc. While Germany has such good players that their second best might not even be able to make it to the Argentinian national team.

[temujin]

I wouldn't flash that that resume around too much . . . not very impressive . . ..

Worst than Bouroussis, in fact.

[temujin]

Easy to say for someone whose team boasts players like Scola, Delfino, Prigioni, Hermann, Oberto, Nocioni etc. While Germany has such good players that their second best might not even be able to make it to the Argentinian national team.

I'll tell you a story that goes like this: in 1999, a skinny kid coming from a minor italian team, goes to one of the best franchises in Europe, Virtus Bologna, fighting for a roster spot. No question to start, as Virtus has a legend of basketball, Predrag Danilovic, at that position and another great veteran, Sconochini, as backup.

Danilovic was more than God in Bologna, contract to life and everything.
He comes back from the Olympics and starts practicing with Virtus.
Then he calls a press conference and, much to everybody's astonishment, simply quits basketball.

The proud, ferociously competitive Sasha, the ultimate Serbian warrior, just goes.
The reasons? not so clear. Not at all.
He never really explained WHY he would hang the sneakers up, all of a sudden.

The legend goes, as I later was told, the rumors, put it how you like it, that it didn't take him more than a couple of practices to realize that his Heir was there already, the new, inevitable alpha-dog, and he could not allow himself to play the "servant" to this phenomenal Argentinian kid.

That's who Emanuel Ginobili is: the one that put to rest the fiercest of the competitors, without playing a single game.

[kaji157]

IMHO Opinion...
Tim Duncan!
But Manu is a close 2nd. Like Tim, he plays both sides of the court.

Why Tim Duncan? Since the NBA has him officially listed as an International Player, then I can say Tim. When Tim first decided to play for the USA Senior National Men's Team in 1996, there wasn't a USVI National Men's team at the time. FIBA Rules are such that once you play for a Senior National Team, you cannot switch. When 2004 came around and the US Olympic Team was scheduled to play the USVI, Tim sat that one out.

Wheather you like it or not i think "international" player is refered to foreign players that played in foreign leagues. Olajwan is never called an international player nor is team.

[smeagol]

Easy to say for someone whose team boasts players like Scola, Delfino, Prigioni, Hermann, Oberto, Nocioni etc. While Germany has such good players that their second best might not even be able to make it to the Argentinian national team.

I've been told many times by Bruno Scola sucks . . . :lol

[Pero]

I've been told many times by Bruno Scola sucks . . . :lol

:lol

[MmP]

Easy to say for someone whose team boasts players like Scola, Delfino, Prigioni, Hermann, Oberto, Nocioni etc. While Germany has such good players that their second best might not even be able to make it to the Argentinian national team.
Fuck..are you kidding me? You can't prize ARG national team, despite the "great players" it has. In 2002 all of them were nobodies and GER hadfar more history than Arg. Now all of the sudden the ARG supporting cast are gods role players?
I don't believe it. They're good, smart and talented players than know their role with a main player (still humble, who knows his role too. When to pass, when to shoot) that's all.
You can't overrate ARG national team all of the sudden. That team built his status from ground zero, just effort but in overall history they're not at all better than Germany or any other European team.
You're just making excuses

[Pero]

Fuck..are you kidding me?

Right back at you.
Argentinian players >>> German players
You can talk all you want about some ground zero or whatever but that is an irrefutable fact.

[TMTTRIO]

It just depends. If it's based on more of their NBA careers than there's no question that Dirk is the better international player but if based on what they've done internationally then I would probably say Manu. He seems to step up his game and play better when he plays for his international team.

[ducks]

yeah why does manu play better for his country and not spurs
who pay him millions

[Pero]

yeah why does manu play better for his country and not spurs
who pay him millions

:lol

[DMC]

yeah why does manu play better for his country and not spurs
who pay him millions
Tiago plays better for his country too. It's amazing how well guys play when their opponents have day jobs.

[ducks]

splitter is a rookie in the nba

[WalterBenitez]

The best skilled for me was Drazen, the most winner Manu, I wouldn't even consider TD as international, he is US' citizen.

Dirk is fantastic, also Sabonis and many other good players such as Nash, etc...

Bodiroga is the one I'd love to had watched play in NBA, but he didn't come.

[Mel_13]

Best international player means the best player in the world, in any league, that is not American. You are just making up fake criteria.

And best international player also does not mean best player from a foreign country that played in the NBA. It means the best basketball player of all time that was not American. For example, Oscar Schmidt and Nikos Galis never played in the NBA and I would take both of them over Dirk any day.

Yet you consider someone who was born in America, grew up in America, went to High School in America, and went to college in America to be European. Why are you making up fake criteria?

[I-Ball]

Germany has many good players. The fact that their national team sucks is not because of a lack of talent. It is because they are habitual chokers.

really? who are these "good" players?

[temujin]

Yet you consider someone who was born in America, grew up in America, went to High School in America, and went to college in America to be European. Why are you making up fake criteria?

Spot on.

Galis was as greek as Becky Hammon is russian.

[smeagol]

Bronze medal in the 2002 world championship and silver medal in 2005 Eurobasket.

Dirk has won nothing in the NBA despite playing alongside great players. In that respect, he is a bit of a loser . . .

[Pero]

Dirk has won nothing in the NBA despite playing alongside great players. In that respect, he is a bit of a loser . . .

I suppose that's true. But he did lead his team to the finals and Mavs have been a successful franchise outside of not winning a championship and that 1st round debacle.

[temujin]

"Finals are not played.
They are won."

Samuel Eto'h

[Mel_13]

Thank you for confirming to the entire forum that you are retarded.

Classic KBP post right there!!!!





Learn to read or I will ignore you just like that mel clown. I never said anything about the nationality of Galis. I said he was one of the best European as in EuroBasket/Euroleague players ever.


Actually, you did....



Best international player means the best player in the world, in any league, that is not American. You are just making up fake criteria.

And best international player also does not mean best player from a foreign country that played in the NBA. It means the best basketball player of all time that was not American. For example, Oscar Schmidt and Nikos Galis never played in the NBA and I would take both of them over Dirk any day.

You said Galis was not American. So you said quite a bit about Galis' nationality.

You may have changed your username, but you still suck hard at this.

Feel free to try again, Billy.

[Mel_13]

It means the best basketball player of all time that was not American. For example, Oscar Schmidt and Nikos Galis


Galis was American

:lmao

Classic KBP self-ownage right there!







Learn to read or I will ignore you just like that mel


Can someone explain who this Mel jerk is?

I thought you were going to ignore me. You even suck at ignoring people.

[diego]

the only point of categorizing players as "international" is to recognize that Basketball is a sport dominated by the USA- what national team or league they play for is besides the point IMO. is an american that plays in europe an "international player"? No. For this reason, I think that players like hakeem, duncan, nash, galis who were formed as players in the US shouldn't be considered international, while players that learned the game abroad (with FIBA rules) should.

[temujin]

:lmao

Classic KBP self-ownage right there!










I thought you were going to ignore me. You even suck at ignoring people.

I'd actually PAY to be able to dissect a Galis Interview in Greek.
:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

I'd bet it would one of the classic americans of italian origins pretending to speak Italian a-la D'antoni, going like

Wella, we have donne a bisinisse toghedde, we have giocatto multo benni.

Greek my ass was Galis.

[temujin]

Learn to read or

It's been a while since I haven't obeyed to orders.
I give orders.

[rascal]

Manu's a winner; Dirk is a loser.

That is their main difference.

And comparing a 7 footer with a guard is stupid.

You are confusing individual play with team play. Their teammates come into play when saying one is a winner and another is a loser. Swap Manu for Dirk and the spurs are not winning any less and likely much more.

Having Dirk instead of Manu the last 3 years the spurs would have a better shot in the playoffs since Manu has come up lame the last 3 years.

[romain.star]

Ranking players based on their collective achievement is lame

As a player, Dirk >>> Manu

[lefty]

Ranking players based on their collective achievement is lame
I agree

Parker sucks

[romain.star]

I agree

Parker sucks

and Manu >> Parker

[ploto]

So actually, Dirk has never won anything in his career.

http://www.onemanfastbreak.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nowitzki_mvp.jpg

Dirk has been named all-NBA 10 times: 4 times 1st team; 4 times 2nd team, and 2 times 3rd team. Manu has one 3rd team all-NBA.

[ploto]

Please explain how that is a team award.

We are not talking about who has the best team.

[Mel_13]

Mel_13 (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6168) This message is hidden because Mel_13 is on your ignore list (http://spurstalk.com/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

:lmao

KBP ignoring me by posting about me.

Someone really doesn't understand what it means to ignore someone else.

Then again, this is the same person that posted that Galis is an American in the same thread that he posted that Galis is also not an American.

Gotta love that KBP logic!!!

[Pero]

Someone kept claiming that Dirk won championships by failing to win FIBA tournaments.

No one claimed that.

[smeagol]

You are confusing individual play with team play.

I'm not confusing anything. I stand behind what I said.


Their teammates come into play when saying one is a winner and another is a loser.

Dirk had plenty of AS caliber players around him and has won bobkus in the NBA. That makes him a little bit of a loser.


Swap Manu for Dirk and the spurs are not winning any less and likely much more.

rascal, your prediction powers suck and you know it. Don't try to re-write history. Your above statement is nothing more than speculation.


Having Dirk instead of Manu the last 3 years the spurs would have a better shot in the playoffs since Manu has come up lame the last 3 years.

Manu was injured two of those three years. Many other players swapped with Manu would've given the Spurs a better shot in the playoffs. Your comment is worthless.

[red strike 07]

LOL

Dirk tonight, just passed Larry Bird in all time scoring.

Going by logic of most Manu cock riders here, then Robert Horry is arguably one of the best players that has ever played the game of Basketball ever.

[ducks]

He asked if Dirk has won anything. Silvers and bronzes is not winning anything. It's actually losing.

manu won no title in nba without tp or duncan

who both have finals mvp

[ducks]

Dirk has won nothing in the NBA despite playing alongside great players. In that respect, he is a bit of a loser . . .

dirk teamed up with a player like duncan and tp would have finals mvp

[ducks]

Manu was injured two of those three years. Many other players swapped with Manu would've given the Spurs a better shot in the playoffs. Your comment is worthless.

therefore DIRK was way better

dirk is way better heck dirk is even better then duncan right now

[temujin]

LOL

Dirk tonight, just passed Larry Bird in all time scoring.

Going by logic of most Manu cock riders here, then Robert Horry is arguably one of the best players that has ever played the game of Basketball ever.

Absolutely.

[temujin]

manu won no title in nba without tp or duncan

who both have finals mvp

Following up with your logic.

Duncan won no Olympics without Ginobili.
Playing with $150 millions worth of teammates.
Brown and Pop coaching.

Ginobili won the Olympics (MVP) without Duncan.
Playing with $1 million worth of teammates.
Magnano coaching.

[temujin]

Obviously Horry was a much better player than Nowitski could ever be.

Just ask any coach who they'd rather have to win something.

[red strike 07]

Absolutely.

Get the fuck out of here :lol

[temujin]

Get the fuck out of here :lol

Great argument.

[temujin]

You are 100% the troll of that mel_13 clown. You are now on ignore.

Here is Nick Galis talking in fluent Greek in an interview:


xf66u0XTlWg


temujin/mel_13 you appear to be some kind of uneducated, ignorant, xenophobic redneck.

KBP you a big laughter to all of us and we all get a kick,
but I am givining you a little "advice".

Don't cross that line, with people you have not the foggiest idea of who they are, what they are doing.
What their record is on forums such as this.

Just don't.

Be a nice baby and proceed with your nonsense.

[Pero]

You claimed that Dirk "won" medals. Silver and bronze is NOT winning. This is a simple fact. He has never won an anything with a team.

No, a simple fact is that we say someone won a silver medal or someone won a bronze medal. No one says someone lost a silver medal, or something stupid like that, well no one except you.

[Pero]

Why are you telling me this? I never claimed Manu was the best international player. Anyone and everyone that claims either Manu or Dirk as the best international player know absolutely zero about basketball history.

Neither one of them is the best international player.

I don't know if Dirk would be the best international player but, Dirk is the best international player in the history of the NBA.

[lefty]

Jaynobliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[J_Paco]

Hakeem Olajuwon is the greatest international player ever. The dude put up insane numbers and was a two-time Finals MVP. Hakeem was also the best big man in what might be the last truly great big man era.

I would say that Timmy deserves that crown, but the Virgin Islands are a U.S. territory which complicates the matter.

[Pero]

It does not and never has. You don't win a silver medal or a bronze. It is called a consolation prize for losing.

Not in national sports. Club sports is different though.

[Pero]

No he is not.

Hakeem Olajuwon is and anyone that says otherwise should be banned from any discussion about basketball.

I would say he is if I considered him an international player, but I don't.

[J_Paco]

I would say he is if I considered him an international player, but I don't.

How is someone that was born in Nigeria (I believe) not an international player?

He received his U.S. citizenship in his 30's and probably holds dual citizenship.

[Pero]

How is someone that was born in Nigeria (I believe) not an international player?

He received his U.S. citizenship in his 30's and probably holds dual citizenship.

Mainly because he played for US national team. Get it? US NATIONAL team. Not US international team or Nigerian team. But he's more international than Tim Duncan hehe and with him I at least understand where people are coming from, I just don't agree.

[J_Paco]

Mainly because he played for US national team. Get it? US NATIONAL team. Not US international team or Nigerian team. But he's more international than Tim Duncan hehe and with him I at least understand where people are coming from, I just don't agree.


That was well into his 30's, when he'd received his U.S. citizenship. That doesn't discount the fact that he was born and raised in Nigeria. So, he's still an international player by most people's definition.

I guess that means that Chris Kaman is German and Samuel Dalmebert is Canadian then? :rolleyes:rolleyes

[Greg Oden]

:lmao this might be the best thread ever.

watching gray spurfans saying Hakeem is international so they don't have to say Dirk is because they know Dirk takes a fat steamy shit all over Manu is one of the funnies threads I've ever read.

[J_Paco]

:lmao this might be the best thread ever.

watching gray spurfans saying Hakeem is international so they don't have to say Dirk is because they know Dirk takes a fat steamy shit all over Manu is one of the funnies threads I've ever read.

What does being a "gray spursfan" even mean?

My dispute with Pero has nothing to do with Manu vs. Dirk, an argument that Dirk easily wins because he's accomplished more individually than Manu in the NBA, but that he discredits Hakeem being a foreigner because he played on Dream Team II like that automatically removes Hakeem's international player status.

That's like claiming that Becky Hammon is no longer an American because she played on the Russian national team.

[Pero]

That was well into his 30's, when he'd received his U.S. citizenship. That doesn't discount the fact that he was born and raised in Nigeria. So, he's still an international player by most people's definition.

I guess that means that Chris Kaman is German and Samuel Dalmebert is Canadian then? :rolleyes:rolleyes

Yes but outside of that Olajuwon spend his entire life in US basketball (college and NBA). Add to that the fact he played for US national team makes him not an international in my book, like I already said.

[Greg Oden]

Anyone that says Hakeem was not an international player is an uneducated, ignorant, moron.

Anyone who takes Manu in this argument is an uneducated, ignorant, moron.

[diego]

Hakeem was born and raised in nigeria. But when he arrived to the US, he was not even a big prospect. His first year in college he was nothing special, basically because his only basketball experience in Nigeria was at an amateur level. He learned to play the game in the US, and it certainly is a credit to him that he learned so much so fast. Its not about discrediting Hakeem- he is one of my favorites, and I already said that in the strictest sense he takes this "award" with Duncan right behind him.

The point of the "award" though, IMO, is not to identify who was born where, but to identify a style of basketball that is different from the dominant US style. that makes it perfectly reasonable to only consider guys who learned to play outside the US.

[Pero]

In national team competitions a silver or a bronze has NEVER counted as winning.

Doesn't count as winning it all, but counts as winning silver or bronze. Otherwise people wouldn't care about getting silver or bronze.

[Pero]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

Sarunas Jasikevicius is an American player since he played high school basketball, college basketball, and NBA basketball in the US.........


He spent years playing in Europe and also played for Lithuania.

[Pero]

So what? According to your definitions he is an American player.

What part of played for Lithuania do you not understand? And what part of played years in Europe do you not understand?

[Greg Oden]

Did I say it was Manu? No, I did not.

someone's butthole is gaping.

[Pero]

You are totally full of it.

According to your own definition Saras is an American player.


What part of citizen of Lithuania do you not understand?



Just stop embarrassing yourself with all these ridiculous xenophobic and racist posts you are making.

:sleep

[polandprzem]

What part of NIGRO do you not understand?

I'm putting you on ignore.

[jimo2305]

i say lets put all their accomplishments down on paper.. NBA, Euroleage, etc.. and compare and contrast.. im pretty sure manu would be on there

[Pero]

What part of NIGERIA do you not understand?

What part of United States of America do you not understand?



I'm putting you on ignore.


:sleep

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1375.snc4/164737_10150333444255461_16555485460_16023174_2621 333_n.jpg

[Pero]

Why in the hell are people letting some idiots here get away with claiming that Hakeem was an American player? I am seriously losing all respect for this forum based on this thread.

:sleep

[Pero]

Pero (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2810) This message is hidden because Pero is on your ignore list (http://spurstalk.com/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

:sleep

But actually what an honour, I've never been put on ignore list before. :lol

[sinok]

Hay dudes, this topic has been so intense that it has been linked on the website of L'Equipe, the main french sport newspaper.
http://www.lequipe.fr/Basket/breves2010/20101227_183405_quand-barkley-joue-ginobili.html

Awesome

[Pero]

Hay dudes, this topic has been so intense that it has been linked on the website of L'Equipe, the main french sport newspaper.
http://www.lequipe.fr/Basket/breves2010/20101227_183405_quand-barkley-joue-ginobili.html

Awesome

I don't understand a word but still, holy shit! :lol

[temujin]

:sleep

But actually what an honour, I've never been put on ignore list before. :lol

You have never come across one of the most distinguished member of a cohort of individuals -intended in the pure biological sense of the term- that gets psychiatrists interested in internet forums.

Admittedly, this KBP individual is really a big question mark for antropologists as well, since his "logic" seems to revert from that of the genus homo sapiens sapiens, which the vast majority of the individuals of OUR species practice, to that of the the genus homo sapiens neardenthalensis, PREVIOUSLY thought to be estinguished.

The BIG question mark is really whether the sapiens before the neardethalensis can be applied to this "ignoring" subject.

Or whether he is simply the remnant of a dead branch of neanderthalensis.

A greecian branch, obviously.

Homo neardethalensis grecianus.

:rolleyes

[ForeignFan]

Hay dudes, this topic has been so intense that it has been linked on the website of L'Equipe, the main french sport newspaper.
http://www.lequipe.fr/Basket/breves2010/20101227_183405_quand-barkley-joue-ginobili.html

Awesome

Just read it. The author must lurk somewhere around here... He is one of us! (no, not me) :rollin

[lotr1trekkie]

If I was in a foxhole, I go with Manu!!!!

[nkdlunch]

Anybody that takes Barkley seriously is in a sad state

[41times]

Poor Charles drunk or high again!

This argument is not even close. Dirk is by a Mile the best foreign player of all time.
He will finish his career somewhere between 6-9 All Time Scorer in the History of the NBA.
That alone makes him the best foreign player of all time.
His defense is much better now and he is a very solid rebounder.
And had he played with Duncan and Parker he would have 5 rings.

[Pero]

If I was in a foxhole, I go with Manu!!!!

Well duh, going with Dirk would be like tempting death. :lol

[TheSullyMonster]

Poor Charles drunk or high again!

This argument is not even close. Dirk is by a Mile the best foreign player of all time.
He will finish his career somewhere between 6-9 All Time Scorer in the History of the NBA.
That alone makes him the best foreign player of all time.
His defense is much better now and he is a very solid rebounder.
And had he played with Duncan and Parker he would have 5 rings.

A Duncan/Dirk frontline would've been amazing.

Like, Throw in Robinson, Horry, Ginobili, Parker, and you're looking at Russell era C's amazing.